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Delta Shrinks Lavatories, Adds Seats  
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1548 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 20446 times:

An article on NBCNews.com reports that Delta will decrease the size of its lavatories on board its 737-900s in order to fit 4 additional seats in the cabin:

http://www.nbcnews.com/travel/shrink...lta-fits-four-more-seats-1C9184100

This march toward cramming seats into every last crevice and space on board an aircraft makes Ryanair's proposal that passengers stand up seem less ludicrous every day!

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4190 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 20294 times:

So they are going to unnoticably shrink the lav and add recline to seats that didn't previously have it... and people still complain? Brilliant!


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 20227 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
This march toward cramming seats into every last crevice and space on board an aircraft makes Ryanair's proposal that passengers stand up seem less ludicrous every day!

How so?

From the article: Will passengers feel the squeeze in what already constitutes tight quarters for all but the smallest passengers? No, said Delta spokesman Morgan Durrant via e-mail, as the design utilizes previously unused space behind the sink and a sculpted exterior wall.

So if it's unnoticeable to the passenger, how is it remotely in the same ballpark as the Ryanair proposal?


User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2668 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 20074 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
4 additional seats in the cabin:

Can NBC explain how they will add 4 seats in coach as stated in the article? There are 6 seats in each row of Y on a 737.


User currently offlinersmith6621a From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 194 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 20053 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
This march toward cramming seats into every last crevice and space on board an aircraft makes Ryanair's proposal that passengers stand up seem less ludicrous every day!

Ladies and Gentleman...Welcome aboard Greyhound Airlines...

Corporations are always pushing the free market concept. Delta will spend all this money making the transition, the customer rejects this, the airline remove it and then......

...... THEY FILE BANKRUPTCY and the exploitation of the system starts all over again... MORE SEATS do not not do anything to make employment more secure for the worker.

How about the airlines stop participating in FUEL SPECULATION and drive the cost of gas back down to realistic levels.

These kind of STUNTS make me glad I am no longer in the industry.



Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4190 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19871 times:

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 4):
Ladies and Gentleman...Welcome aboard Greyhound Airlines...

Corporations are always pushing the free market concept. Delta will spend all this money making the transition, the customer rejects this, the airline remove it and then......

...... THEY FILE BANKRUPTCY and the exploitation of the system starts all over again... MORE SEATS do not not do anything to make employment more secure for the worker.

How about the airlines stop participating in FUEL SPECULATION and drive the cost of gas back down to realistic levels.

These kind of STUNTS make me glad I am no longer in the industry.

What an eloquent response. Now go fact check what is actually happening here. Seat pitch isn't being reduced.. the use of the space in the lav is only being made more efficient. But, by all means, react with emotion instead of logic.  



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12857 posts, RR: 100
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19761 times:
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Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
An article on NBCNews.com reports that Delta will decrease the size of its lavatories on board its 737-900s in order to fit 4 additional seats in the cabin:

Past due. That was wasted space. Although, someone explain to me how they found room for 4 seats when it is 3 per side... I assume this is a mix of F/Y addition?


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineflyfree727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 657 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19732 times:

my fav quote from the article.. "your standing there traveling at 500 MPH. They ain't water on the floor.."

Yet, DAILY, I see passengers go into the lav barefeet or only with socks.. I don't even try to explain any more.

AA ORD


User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19603 times:

Oh but could this mean there WILL be a "mid-cabin" 3rd lav....PLEAASSE!


My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19577 times:

Hah! The 739 is such a dog.


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineCoachClass From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 427 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19574 times:

I suspect that in the future Delta will offer, in addition to the new smaller toilets, "comfort toilets" for a fee for those wishing a few extra inches in the loo in order to do luxury things like turn around or tie your shoelace.

User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 701 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19511 times:

Jury is still out for me if there really is that much wasted space in a design that is already very compact to allow an extra row and 4 seats onto an aircraft without some pinching of the legroom. While the 31-32" seat pitch for Y listed on DL.com for the 738 might still be very true on the 739 I have a feeling there will be a whole heck of a lot more at 31" than 32". Passengers really are an inconvenience to airlines, what with our desires to sit in something approaching half comfortable, stand up, go to the toilet etc  

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 19355 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 5):
Seat pitch isn't being reduced.. the use of the space in the lav is only being made more efficient

This has all of the hallmarks of one of those "enhancements" that is great for the airline's costs, but not so much for one's knees. Without even looking I'm sure pitch is reduced, just not at ankle level or wherever they measure for the PR. Regardless, it's the right move.

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 4):
These kind of STUNTS make me glad I am no longer in the industry.

There was an article I saw somewhere recently whose headline essentially was "it's time to stop complaining about crappy airline service--passengers are getting exactly what they wanted". You should check it out.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10342 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 19302 times:

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 4):
These kind of STUNTS make me glad I am no longer in the industry.

Probably a good thing you're no longer in the industry, too, with your inability to read the entire article and figure out that it won't be nearly as bad as you say.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 5):
But, by all means, react with emotion instead of logic.

  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20352 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 19134 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
Although, someone explain to me how they found room for 4 seats when it is 3 per side

On another forum it was postulated that due to the tapering of the long 739 cabin + having the seats recline into the lav wall, the last row on both sides of the main cabin will only have 2 seats each, not unlike other planes with reduced seat counts in the back rows.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3380 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 19104 times:

Can't imagine narrowbody lav's getting any smaller than they already are. I'm a relatively small guy and find them pretty tight.

User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 18923 times:

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 4):
Ladies and Gentleman...Welcome aboard Greyhound Airlines...

Corporations are always pushing the free market concept. Delta will spend all this money making the transition, the customer rejects this, the airline remove it and then......

...... THEY FILE BANKRUPTCY and the exploitation of the system starts all over again... MORE SEATS do not not do anything to make employment more secure for the worker.

How about the airlines stop participating in FUEL SPECULATION and drive the cost of gas back down to realistic levels.

These kind of STUNTS make me glad I am no longer in the industry.

I think YOU are really missing the point here.

What they ARE doing, as part of the fiduciary responsibility to the shareholder that they have, is increasing yields and with it profits.

It really is CRAZY to say that this will lead to them filing bankruptcy.


User currently offlinenws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 883 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 18870 times:

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 15):
Can't imagine narrowbody lav's getting any smaller than they already are. I'm a relatively small guy and find them pretty tight.

Have you ever seen the forward lav on a CRJ-7/9?


User currently offlinePSAJet17 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 18868 times:

Nothing like reading this story and then finding the next forum topic is about Wizz Air.

[Edited 2013-04-03 12:59:18]

User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 18710 times:

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 17):
Have you ever seen the forward lav on a CRJ-7/9?

or the aft lav on the CR7 and E145.


User currently offlinecschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 18041 times:

Quoting PSAJet17 (Reply 18):
Nothing like reading this story and then finding the next forum topic is about Wizz Air.

  

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 10):
I suspect that in the future Delta will offer, in addition to the new smaller toilets, "comfort toilets" for a fee for those wishing a few extra inches in the loo in order to do luxury things like turn around or tie your shoelace.

You could be onto something here. Bring back the lounges, including a dedicated lav, but for a fee. Let's see.... have all seat pitch at 28" or something. Then have a for-a-fee lounge that some passengers use for almost the entire flight, other than takeoff and landing. It would be priced so it's less than, say, an F seat per passenger, but sized so it still drives more revenue per flight than current configurations. With the growth of independent airport lounges for a fee, maybe expanding to the plane would work. It's all about perception on the passengers' part.


User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 889 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 17591 times:
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The actual article's headline puts the whole story into a negative tailspin.

Instead, they should be praising Delta for finding wasted non-revenue generating space and turning it into revenue-generating space. Of course, that would require looking at the bigger picture.. and that's something a lot of people seem to lack nowadays. All they see is "smaller" and think bad. Heck, reading the article it doesn't even seem like the lavs are getting smaller.



Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlinereality From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 463 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 16994 times:

Quoting ghifty (Reply 21):
Heck, reading the article it doesn't even seem like the lavs are getting smaller.

Reading the article actually doesn't seem to give any information at all. Apparently this is a Boeing decision, not a Delta decision.

"B/E Aerospace (Nasdaq:BEAV), the world’s leading manufacturer of aircraft cabin interior products and the world’s leading distributor of aerospace fasteners and consumables, today announced that TheBoeing Company has selected B/E Aerospace to become the exclusive manufacturer of modular lavatory systems for Boeing’s 737 Next-Generation family of airplanes, as well as the 737 MAX which is expected to be introduced into service later this decade. The estimated value of the award is in excess of $800 million, exclusive of retrofit orders, which are expected to be substantial.

"The B/E Aerospace modular lavatory system (MLS) utilizes B/E Aerospace, patent pending, Spacewall® technology, which frees up floor space in the cabin, creating the opportunity to add up to six incremental passenger seats on each airplane."

source: http://pin-pointsolutions.com/be-aerospace-newsletter/

This same information is everywhere on the internet. But nowhere can I find how this technology will actually allow for more passenger seats. Does anyone have more info?


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1548 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 15545 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
someone explain to me how they found room for 4 seats when it is 3 per side... I assume this is a mix of F/Y addition?

A good point that I wondered about myself. An extra row of first class seats would equal 4 seats, but jeez, I don't see how Delta found that much extra space behind the sink! And what is this new design? A narrower space that extends farther back?

Quoting catiii (Reply 2):
Will passengers feel the squeeze in what already constitutes tight quarters for all but the smallest passengers? No, said Delta spokesman Morgan Durrant via e-mail,

Yes, says Delta. But what will passengers say? Look, I'm all for airlines right-sizing space in the economy section to match the low cost of a restricted coach ticket. When I can, I fly up front, but often the cost is simply prohibitive for me. My recent experience flying coach is that it is so uncomfortable that it becomes an ordeal.

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 10):
I suspect that in the future Delta will offer, in addition to the new smaller toilets, "comfort toilets" for a fee for those wishing a few extra inches in the loo in order to do luxury things like turn around or tie your shoelace.

Hah! Don't say that too loud, it could happen!


User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 889 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15220 times:
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Quoting reality (Reply 22):
This same information is everywhere on the internet. But nowhere can I find how this technology will actually allow for more passenger seats. Does anyone have more info?

My sentiment is that the wall separating the interior of the lavatory to the main cabin must be thinner or something. Somehow that must free up enough space for one (?) more row of seats.



Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlineFlyHossD From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 838 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15178 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 9):
Hah! The 739 is such a dog.

Can you explain how your comment is relevant to this thread? I don't see the connection.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 26, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15325 times:

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 25):

You wouldn't have to shrink a lav on a 757. The 739 is so finicky that they have to reduce lav space for only FOUR extra seats? Sounds like cramming to me.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineFlyHossD From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 838 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15276 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 26):
You wouldn't have to shrink a lav on a 757. The 739 is so finicky that they have to reduce lav space for only FOUR extra seats? Sounds like cramming to me.

In my opinion, you didn't answer my question.

Granted a 737-900 cabin isn't a long as a 757-200, but so what? Neither is a 737-800 or an A320.

Why does DL and UA have so many 739s on order? Because the seat mile cost is lower than the mighty 757-200; it's just business.

Don't get me wrong, I flew 757s and it's a great airplane, but if "greatness" were enough, UA wouldn't be retiring the (sUA) 757-200s, would they?

[Edited 2013-04-03 17:00:15]


My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8397 posts, RR: 3
Reply 28, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15147 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 26):
The 739 is so finicky that they have to reduce lav space for only FOUR extra seats? Sounds like cramming to me.

Four extra jet seats across a fleet in the USA (~200 total seats) flying 10 hours per day earns enough to pay a lot of workers. Even getting 8c RASM out of them, 4000 miles per day, the seats will make about 320 dollars per seat per day. Or $64,000 per day. So, that's about enough to pay 365 worker salaries.

[Edited 2013-04-03 17:28:29]

User currently offlinehomSar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15067 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 26):

You wouldn't have to shrink a lav on a 757. The 739 is so finicky that they have to reduce lav space for only FOUR extra seats? Sounds like cramming to me.

I'm sure if there was a way to make a lav smaller on a 757 to fit in four extra seats, they'd do it.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineSchweigend From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14318 times:

Quote:
Known as a modular lavatory system (MLS), the new facilities are made by Wellington, Fla.-based B/E Aerospace. Neither the company nor Delta responded to inquiries as to how the dimensions would compare to a typical 3 x 3-foot coach lavatory.

Will passengers feel the squeeze in what already constitutes tight quarters for all but the smallest passengers? No, said Delta spokesman Morgan Durrant via e-mail, as the design utilizes previously unused space behind the sink and a sculpted exterior wall.

It's very hard to tell what it could mean, without a plan or specs to look at. "Modular"??

We all know the floor plan of a lavatory is usually a toilet with its back against the fuselage wall, and alongside it is the sink and counter, which extend the whole way from the aisle to the fuselage.

A lot of that countertop space is wasted, as is much of the space in the cabinets under the counter, where the water heater, garbage can, towel and feminine hygiene product dispensers are.

I can easily imagine a design where the counter is much smaller, or omitted altogether, resulting in a sink and toilet combo with the bulkhead being curved rather than straight. The lav would be wide at the door and narrower near the fuselage wall. And also, as mentioned above, further curves could be introduced to allow for the last row in Coach to recline.

This probably means a smaller mirror.

Making some use of wasted space is a very good thing, and this shows the level of refinement the 737 is realizing. This apparently will be standard for new 737s into the future.

I wonder how this will affect lavs in the forward cabin.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 31, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 13973 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 23):
A good point that I wondered about myself. An extra row of first class seats would equal 4 seats, but jeez, I don't see how Delta found that much extra space behind the sink! And what is this new design? A narrower space that extends farther back?

I could see that, where the sink projects into the space where an aisle seat might be, but the "dead corner" that currently exists next to the sink and toilet is reclaimed by the cabin.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6113 posts, RR: 34
Reply 32, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 13916 times:

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 4):
Ladies and Gentleman...Welcome aboard Greyhound Airlines...

I haven't heard that in a very long time.... 
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User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1064 posts, RR: 3
Reply 33, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 13900 times:
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Looks to me like Delta may find themselves with a law suit claiming discrimination about very large passengers not being able to fit into the lav and relieve themselves. Here is more fodder for the "Ameicans With Disabilities Act." Are the airlines going to start restricting passengers due to their inability to fit into these "tiny lavs." Maybe oversized passengers are go into have relieve themselves in bags in their seats.
I think maybe the airlines may be in for a rough flight.   


User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2490 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 13903 times:

I just flew aboard my first (UA) 739 (BWI-DEN) and couldn't help but notice the mid-cabin lav is insanely narrow even by airline standards - how do they compare to DL's proposed loos? It's unrealistic to expect it to be as large as a 757 mid-cabin lav, but you expect it to be somewhat larger than, say an RJ, given that the 739 is designed for transcon-length segments. As a rule, I generally try to spend as little time as possible in an aircraft lav, but can't imagine having to (try to) pop a squat in the mid-cabin lav; there's simply no elbow room (I'm 5' 10", about 180 lbs), and barely enough room to place your legs without hitting the doors.

As an aside, the DirecTv (on UA) was a great diversion from monotony of our headwind-lengthened mid-con flight.

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 750 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13062 times:

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 10):
for a fee for those wishing a few extra inches

They could probably make a lot of money with that offering!


User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 750 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 12979 times:

Per the article in OP, "Neither the company nor Delta responded to inquiries as to how the dimensions would compare to a typical 3 x 3-foot coach lavatory."

Three feet = 36". Seat pitch equals 31-32". Simple math would lead us to believe the new lavs are 4-5" wide. Something gives. Perhaps the placement of the lavs will be placed in the rear similar to some A320s.


User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 750 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 12862 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 23):
I don't see how Delta found that much extra space behind the sink! And what is this new design? A narrower space that extends farther back?

Simple. It's the new AirLavBidet.

Passenger will walk into a narrow, closet-like lav... lock the door... put on an oxygen mask... roll down the aircraft window... stick whatever whatever out the window... do the business... shake it around in the wind... pull the whatever whatever back in... roll up the window... return oxygen mask... wash hands using disinfecting spray... unlock door... walk into cabin.

Also saves fuel by not having to transport lav and water tanks.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12857 posts, RR: 100
Reply 38, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 12826 times:
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Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
the last row on both sides of the main cabin will only have 2 seats each, not unlike other planes with reduced seat counts in the back rows.

Or that.  
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 23):
My recent experience flying coach is that it is so uncomfortable that it becomes an ordeal.

People get what they pay for.   Unfortunately.   (I'm a cheap bastard.)

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 33):

Looks to me like Delta may find themselves with a law suit claiming discrimination about very large passengers

My understanding is access minimum width is the same.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 34):
the DirecTv (on UA) was a great diversion from monotony of our headwind-lengthened mid-con flight.

The best part, ever since I first experienced IFE on VS a long time ago    is that the idiot next to you is distracted. (I've been on hundreds of flights and I've had six 'great conversations' with strangers and had dozens of drunks think they were holding up a conversation that wasn't interesting at all... and they think reading a book is doing nothing. ugh But watch a game on IFE means they leave you alone.)

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinestrangr From Australia, joined Apr 2012, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10861 times:

It's pretty easy, before you get on your 1.5 hour flight, relax and visit the big restroom on the ground. I see no problem here at all.

User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10673 times:

Quoting strangr (Reply 39):
It's pretty easy, before you get on your 1.5 hour flight, relax and visit the big restroom on the ground. I see no problem here at all.

If it's a 90 minute flight in the US, people just drive.


User currently offlinestrangr From Australia, joined Apr 2012, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 10343 times:

After my recent trip to the USA i noticed a few things that i think would do worlds for airlines and their profit.

1] remove carry on bins. If it don't fit under the seat bad luck - Americans abuse what carry on is for Its for a small bag, laptop not a whole weeks clothes for your business trip. And since when has one bag been able to take up over half a bin.

2] if you charge for checked in at the booking counter, don't offer it free at the gate because they are limited on space. If you make it that far and run out of space then you should triple the charge, Take a chance and you could win or lose big time.

3] 45 minutes for boarding huh? how many status clubs do you need to have to make people feel warm cozy and loved, its a plane, those who pay for business should get on first and military thats it its a free for all after that. Works over here in Australia, and i've seen turns of 20-30 minutes.

Work on that and i see profit very soon.


User currently offlineintermodal64 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7336 times:
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Quoting ghifty (Reply 24):
My sentiment is that the wall separating the interior of the lavatory to the main cabin must be thinner or something. Somehow that must free up enough space for one (?) more row of seats.

I think it's just a curtain. Why use walls, anyway? They're too heavy, and they take up too much room.


User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5167 posts, RR: 1
Reply 43, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7158 times:

The article repeatedly says the coach lavatory. On a typical narrowbody (A320, 737NG, 757, MD-80), is the first class lav any bigger than the coach lavs?

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7799 posts, RR: 52
Reply 44, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6697 times:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 33):
Looks to me like Delta may find themselves with a law suit claiming discrimination about very large passengers not being able to fit into the lav

Lawsuit for what? Did you even read the article? I don't think many fat people will care that there is less space behind the sink  



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6445 times:

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 40):
If it's a 90 minute flight in the US, people just drive.

A 90 minute flight starts pushing the "just drive" limit a little. a 90 minute flight is at least a 7 hour car ride. Add 30 minutes to that flight time and you're up to a 10 hour car ride.

A 60 minute flight is about 4 hours in the car and would take (almost) the exact same amount of time as it would to fly if you add on the time spent at the airport before and after the flight.



"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlineakelley728 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2189 posts, RR: 5
Reply 46, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6371 times:

Quoting reality (Reply 22):
Reading the article actually doesn't seem to give any information at all. Apparently this is a Boeing decision, not a Delta decision.

        

THIS IS NOT DELTA'S DECISION!!! People will take any opportunity to bash an airline without getting all the facts straight. I personally think Delta should sue the WSJ (which is where the article originated) for defamation. The comments I see on the WSJ and NBC sites are just sad and ignorant "I'm not ever going to fly Delta because of this". You might as well not fly any airline that flies new 737NGs built from late 2013 forward or 737MAXs. I'm sure these will also be offered on A32x series in the future as well.

Of course I also can see these space saving lavs being retrofitted on older planes as well. But if the design is as they say and they are more efficiently using dead space, what is the issue again?


User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 47, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5923 times:

Quoting 777fan (Reply 34):
It's unrealistic to expect it to be as large as a 757 mid-cabin lav, but you expect it to be somewhat larger than, say an RJ, given that the 739 is designed for transcon-length segments.

739s actually are not the most capable on a transcon. They can and will divert during the winter if the headwinds are strong. They are better for midcons like your BWI-DEN

Quoting 777fan (Reply 34):

As an aside, the DirecTv (on UA) was a great diversion from monotony of our headwind-lengthened mid-con flight.

Once you get over the outrageous price that you have to pay for it. I would think DL would have its IFE on the 739s for free, like they currently have on Delta on Demand.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10342 posts, RR: 14
Reply 48, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5828 times:

Quoting strangr (Reply 41):
Work on that and i see profit very soon.

You do realize that they are ALREADY turning a profit, correct?




Since we're trying to save space, why not just wash your hands in the toilet??  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinemax999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1024 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5654 times:

Quoting strangr (Reply 41):
1] remove carry on bins. If it don't fit under the seat bad luck - Americans abuse what carry on is for Its for a small bag, laptop not a whole weeks clothes for your business trip. And since when has one bag been able to take up over half a bin.

I suspect you may change your mind when the vast majority of airlines in your country start to charge for check in baggage.

Americans are just responding rationally to economic disincentives created by the airlines. This is not a cultural thing...it's just basic human behavior. Australians would do the same thing.



All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
User currently offlinebonusonus From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5371 times:

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 4):
MORE SEATS do not not do anything to make employment more secure for the worker.

Actually, innovations in aircraft interior designs do create and support jobs--for the engineers that design aircraft interiors. I should know, I'm one of them! Not to mention the production workers who build the lavs, galleys and seats, technicians who test and qualify them, and the MRO workers who install them...


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2067 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5209 times:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 33):
Looks to me like Delta may find themselves with a law suit claiming discrimination about very large passengers not being able to fit into the lav and relieve themselves. Here is more fodder for the "Ameicans With Disabilities Act."

Probably not. I sounds like they are shrinking the aft lavs but there is likely an ADA compliant lav in F.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 52, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4961 times:

Quoting strangr (Reply 41):
3] 45 minutes for boarding huh? how many status clubs do you need to have to make people feel warm cozy and loved, its a plane, those who pay for business should get on first and military thats it its a free for all after that. Works over here in Australia, and i've seen turns of 20-30 minutes.

Where are you getting your information from? Turn-time for our DC9s and 319s is 35 minutes. 40 minutes for 320s, 737s, MD88s and MD90s. 50 Minutes for 752s. "Turn" meaning from the a/c "in" time to a/c "out" time. 35/40/50 minutes respectively to get everyone off including the bags and cargo. Clean and cater. Reboard and load all the bags and still show out on-time.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 53, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4888 times:

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 40):
If it's a 90 minute flight in the US, people just drive.

Ever heard of connecting? All those RJ's flying into the likes of ATL and DFW are coming from Birmingham, Alabama, not Birmingham, UK.

Quoting strangr (Reply 41):
Work on that and i see profit very soon.

I don't think those suggestions will radically change the existing profitability of the US carriers.  
Quoting mayor (Reply 48):
Since we're trying to save space, why not just wash your hands in the toilet??

You're really starting to grow on me. lol

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10342 posts, RR: 14
Reply 54, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4773 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 53):
Quoting mayor (Reply 48):
Since we're trying to save space, why not just wash your hands in the toilet??

You're really starting to grow on me. lol

Much like a fungus, no doubt....  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4666 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 53):
Ever heard of connecting? All those RJ's flying into the likes of ATL and DFW are coming from Birmingham, Alabama, not Birmingham, UK.

Guys, it was hyperbole responding to hyperbole, and we're talking 739s. Sheesh. Yes of course there are flights shorter than 90 minutes in the US, but we're talking a plane that will seat, what, 170 people? If you're in the back, you'll spend 90 minutes just loading and unloading. Might as well use the loo while the 200 rollaboards slowly make their way out.  


User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4423 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 47):
Once you get over the outrageous price that you have to pay for it. I would think DL would have its IFE on the 739s for free, like they currently have on Delta on Demand.

DL IFE is complimentary. Some items are ppv, but the basic stuff free.



My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5445 posts, RR: 29
Reply 57, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4384 times:

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 55):
Guys, it was hyperbole responding to hyperbole

I guess it cancelled itself out when I read it.  

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4392 times:

Quoting B727FA (Reply 56):
DL IFE is complimentary. Some items are ppv, but the basic stuff free.

On domestic flights, live TV and pre-recorded TV shows are free, while movies and games are paid. However, on international, Hawaii, Alaska, and Puerto Rico flights, movies and games are free.

[Edited 2013-04-04 15:28:10]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13507 posts, RR: 62
Reply 59, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4352 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 33):
Here is more fodder for the "Ameicans With Disabilities Act."

...you mean that law that doesn't apply to air carriers?   

I think you meant the Air Carrier Access Act.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 60, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4366 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 47):
739s actually are not the most capable on a transcon. They can and will divert during the winter if the headwinds are strong. They are better for midcons like your BWI-DEN

They can do everything the 757s can do on the average transcon, but cheaper. In fact there are precious few places you need a 757 for performance--everywhere else you're just paying for performance you don't need.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3303 posts, RR: 9
Reply 61, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4210 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
There was an article I saw somewhere recently whose headline essentially was "it's time to stop complaining about crappy airline service--passengers are getting exactly what they wanted". You should check it out.

   Airlines in the United States have had no choice but to embrace the à la carte model because passengers (especially with the recent economic downturn) have loyalty only to price.

Quoting strangr (Reply 41):
1] remove carry on bins. If it don't fit under the seat bad luck - Americans abuse what carry on is for Its for a small bag, laptop not a whole weeks clothes for your business trip. And since when has one bag been able to take up over half a bin.

2] if you charge for checked in at the booking counter, don't offer it free at the gate because they are limited on space. If you make it that far and run out of space then you should triple the charge, Take a chance and you could win or lose big time.

I think you would like Spirit Airlines. They charge for carry-on items that don't fit under the seat, and passengers who wait until the gate to pay the fee are charged twice as much as at the ticket counter. (I actually don't mean this sarcastically, as I myself am an NK frequent flier due to their low fares)

Quoting max999 (Reply 49):
Americans are just responding rationally to economic disincentives created by the airlines. This is not a cultural thing...it's just basic human behavior. Australians would do the same thing.

   The economic disincentives are brought on by the passengers themselves. Why is Southwest the only airline that still offers two free bags? If passengers so overwhelmingly hated being nickel-and-dimed, the other domestic carriers would've been run out of business by now.


User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2490 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4152 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 47):
Once you get over the outrageous price that you have to pay for it. I would think DL would have its IFE on the 739s for free, like they currently have on Delta on Demand.

$7.99 for any flight over two hours...a pittance on a four-hour flight, if you ask me. Consider that a beer or cocktail costs about the same but lasts only a fraction as long. Plus, as Lightsaber noted, it generally distracts and mutes those around you. Best yet, the constant turnover of programming effectively eliminates queues at the loos when movies wrap up. I did miss, however, channel nine...

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 63, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3965 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 60):
everywhere else you're just paying for performance you don't need.

Not to mention the extra weight of the 57. She's pretty heavy compared to a 739 that will carry the same amount of people on the same exact missions (save the few niche markets where the 757 will stay).



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinestrangr From Australia, joined Apr 2012, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3605 times:

Quoting bonusonus (Reply 50):
I suspect you may change your mind when the vast majority of airlines in your country start to charge for check in baggage.

The vast majority of airlines in Australia do charge for luggage.

Jetstar, Virgin, Tiger the only one that does not is Qantas.

My point is that its carry on was taken so far over there and caused so many problems. Every time we were at the gate getting ready to board the gate crew would say we are late, we are full and need people to check bags (for free) yet people still fought to get on first to get their carry on in.

I think carry on needs to be reduced in size because if one of those bags fell on me while someone was lifting it out or in thats a mega lawsuit for the airlines. I think many of them could have easily weighed 15kg (30p) thats a joke and beyond what carry on is about.


User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 65, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3231 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 23):
Quoting catiii (Reply 2):
Will passengers feel the squeeze in what already constitutes tight quarters for all but the smallest passengers? No, said Delta spokesman Morgan Durrant via e-mail,

Yes, says Delta. But what will passengers say? Look, I'm all for airlines right-sizing space in the economy section to match the low cost of a restricted coach ticket. When I can, I fly up front, but often the cost is simply prohibitive for me. My recent experience flying coach is that it is so uncomfortable that it becomes an ordeal.

If F is so cost prohibitive, there are any number of options in Y that are marginally more expensive for more legroom. In any event, I'm still waiting for a response to why you think this is comparable to Ryanair's standup proposal...

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 47):
739s actually are not the most capable on a transcon. They can and will divert during the winter if the headwinds are strong.

Have any examples of that?

[Edited 2013-04-05 10:11:43]

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