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Cyprus Airways: Investor Or Close Down  
User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15320 times:
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http://www.sigmalive.com/inbusiness/news/business/38707 sorry the article is in Greek. one of the important fact that its states is that there is interest for the airline from the Middle East and China as well.
Also, yesterday it was reported that there was 3 other scenarios. One was to close it down immediately, the other one was to help it survive for the summer season and the last one was to reduce the aircraft to 6 and sack reduce its staff.
What are your thoughts?

253 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14964 times:
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According to the latest information the airline is very close to being sold, with the possibility of signatures by tomorrow.

User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14948 times:
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Quoting VCy (Reply 1):

Did they say who they are being sold to? Or at least who are the interested parties.


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14872 times:
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Its a chinese company that s in the airline industry according to the latest information. They have been negotiating for the past 15 days apparently. Will upload the link soon, but its in Greek.

User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14815 times:
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Quoting VCy (Reply 3):

Great, I guess the Russians are out of Cyprus but the Chinese will step right in to take over. :P

When you have the link please upload it  


User currently offlinekonrad From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 533 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14784 times:

Quoting VCy (Reply 3):
Its a chinese company that s in the airline industry according to the latest information. They have been negotiating for the past 15 days apparently. Will upload the link soon, but its in Greek.

As Cyprus Airways are an EU airline there is a limit of less than 50% on non-EU ownership.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14671 times:
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Quoting konrad (Reply 5):

The government of Cyprus owns 69.2% of the airline, so even if they sell 49% to the Chinese they will have 20% stake in the airline. I doubt they would make the life of the Chinese difficult. I am sure they would provide them with the necessary majority when needed.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14626 times:

We should know the answer tomorrow. The Chinese investors are the only ones who seriously seem interested and they are chewing over the deal apparently and are to come back to CY management with their final decision by tomorrow latest.

Basically if the Chinese are not interested then its curtains for CY unless another last minute buyer shows up.


User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14609 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 6):
The government of Cyprus owns 69.2% of the airline, so even if they sell 49% to the Chinese they will have 20% stake in the airline. I doubt they would make the life of the Chinese difficult. I am sure they would provide them with the necessary majority when needed.

I think that the above has changed after the last issue of rights when the Government exercised (proportionally) more rights than the private sector owners who owned the remaining 30.8%.

In any case, I think that a split of 50% - 1 share for the Chinese Investor, 20-25% for the Government and a 25-30% for the remaining/existing private investors could be beneficial for the airline.

If a deal is to go ahead, a LOI will be signed during the weekend.



CY@Uk
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14578 times:

Very interesting. I know that MEA was considering purchasing the airline last year but with the Cypriot economy as it is I think it would be a hefty burden for an airline the size of MEA.

I think the airline should close down and rebrand as a low cost airline- like the huge majority of airlines serving the island.

A few A320s for key European routes and then Dash8 Q400s for a regional operation which could include Athens, Istanbul, Cairo, Beirut, Amman which then feed into their daily A320 ops to Europe. I am rather impressed with Pegasus' Airlines operations in Istanbul.

In the summer months when their is an increase of traffic they could lease in additional A320s for the summer season only. That way they won't have such an overstocked fleet when the winter months come around



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14573 times:
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Quoting raffik (Reply 9):
Istanbul,

Hehe well, they will have to wait a bit until they can deploy their Dash-8 there  


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14569 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 9):
Istanbul

LOL... I wonder if we will see MEA in TLV first or CY in IST    


User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14517 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 11):
LOL... I wonder if we will see MEA in TLV first or CY in IST  

   Woops- probably won't happen then! I don't know why I said IST.. but any similar short haul route would suffice as a substitute to IST!



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26011 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 14401 times:

No matter who opt to buy the ailing carrier, Cyprus Airways needs a major overhaul.

Business as usual clearly does not work, and the carriers needs a new business strategy to better align with the stark market realities of being based in an incredibly seasonal home market, and under constant competition from low cost competitors.

Frankly I doubt a minority owner (especially one without airline experience) will have much power to change things as long as the government is involved and unwilling to make the tough decisions including staff and cost cuts to allow the carrier a clean sheet of paper to work with.

[Edited 2013-04-05 09:08:47]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 14324 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):

The government is desperate enough and I am sure they will not pose any problems to the new owners. They are getting ready to introduce harsh measures in all government institutions so I am sure that Cyprus Airways is no different. Plus, the position of the government has been a clear one, people needed to be fired and contracts needed to be revised.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 14272 times:

I think they would have been better with a Gulf carrier who had the funds to inject into the project. Im sure the Chinese will have to get a very good deal to take CY and its issues.

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14004 times:

Latest updates of things being suggested are as follows :

50% of the workforce to be made redundant.

LHR route axed.

Only 5/6 aircraft to be retained.

Some A320's to be returned to lessor saving EUR1 Million a month on each frame.

Total cost savings of EUR30 Million.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26011 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13522 times:

Well selling the LHR slots should bring in some money.

Last month we saw Etihad purchase the 3 Jet Airways LHR slots for $70mil.

Suppose CY might get $40mil+ for their 2 daily pairs.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13306 times:
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I just got an e-mail from them, they are removing the dedicated business class seats. Business class will be kept and the middle seat will be blocked.

It seems that they are expanding their cooperation with Alitalia as they will offer flights from Larnaca via Rome to Geneva, Madrid, Barcelona, Malta, Tunisia and Brussels.

If London Heathrow flights are to be suspended, does it mean their partnership with Virgin Atlantic is over?

[Edited 2013-04-05 23:43:53]

User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13235 times:
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Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
Latest updates of things being suggested are as follows :

50% of the workforce to be made redundant.

LHR route axed.

Only 5/6 aircraft to be retained.

Some A320's to be returned to lessor saving EUR1 Million a month on each frame.

Total cost savings of EUR30 Million.

i think this is the plan if the deal with the Chinese company fails. it would be a real shame if LHR is axed  


User currently offlineDutchBoeing From Netherlands, joined Apr 2010, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13176 times:

I understand they need cash now, but is it wise on the long run to sell the LHR-slots? I suspect (don't know, just a hunch) that LHR is one of the few routes they actually make money on. LCA-LHR must be pretty big or is there too much competition on LON-LCA from lcc's? Then it is the last route to axe I would say. But I understand they need to do something... Would they leave LON altogether or just switch to i.e. STN?

On a side note: I really hope they will keep the dedicated business class seating. One of the few airlines in EU that still has those. Would be a shame if another carrier gets rid of proper C-class seating. Apparently there really is no market for them in EU anymore. That only leaves RO, JU and SU? If you can count SU as EU of course and I believe JU is also getting rid of them with their new interiors. Any other ones still have them?


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13168 times:
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Quoting DutchBoeing (Reply 20):
I suspect (don't know, just a hunch) that LHR is one of the few routes they actually make money on. LCA-LHR must be pretty big or is there too much competition on LON-LCA from lcc's?

The LON-LCA market is huge and CY has recently entered an agreement with VS to transit passengers to the USA through LHR. I have never flown on a CY flight to LHR without the flight being close to full, therefore i have no idea why they would do that. There is alot of competition by lccs, such as Easyjet & Monarch but no one can use them to transit, and Cypriots seem to prefer LHR. I would believe they would be better off giving up their Rome slots and let A3 pick up the route. And for sure the Frankfurt and Munich as i don't see the market being that big and the capability of CY to compete with LH. I think another good move would be to give their CDG route to AF & AMS to KLM. However, not everything should happen, cause if it did then CY would be left only with its Greece routes  

[Edited 2013-04-06 00:22:36]

User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13135 times:
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Quoting DutchBoeing (Reply 20):

Jat has a mix of them but some of the recently refurbished aircraft lost their dedicated business class seating. They have the demand on some routes, so I think that in the long run only a few aircraft will keep it.

I doubt Cyprus Airways would leave London as the market is massive. However I do not know how wise it would be to move to Gatwick with easyJet and Aegean already competing on this market. I guess we will have to wait and see, but my guess is that London Heathrow is here to stay.

Quoting VCy (Reply 21):

If I remember correctly Rome is quite cheap as an airport to fly into, at least cheaper than some other European airports. Maybe that is one of the reasons why Cyprus Airways sought to establish this partnership with Alitalia. In addition to this, there is a market between Larnaca and Rome, Cyprus Airways sells most of its seats to Italian tourist agencies. This is why one of Ryanair's first destinations out of Larnaca was Bologna, a lot of people used this flight to visit Rome.
Mind you, Cyprus Airways has been sending their A321 to Frankfurt a few times, so the market is there. Unfortunately for Cyprus Airways most of those passengers are low-yielding tourists coming to sun tan on the Cypriot beaches.
I flew at least 8 times on Cyprus Airways from Larnaca to Amsterdam and most of those flights used to be the horrible ones that would stop in Paphos. In Larnaca we would be around 10 to 20 passengers while the flight out of Paphos would leave completely full, mostly with elderly Dutch people. I do not know what impact the removal of Paphos from their network had on their loads but I hope their flights are carrying more passengers than those times I flew on them out of Larnaca.

CY's primary problem is its cost structure. Only by fixing it they can actually make a profit by flying tourists in and out of Cyprus.


User currently offlineDutchBoeing From Netherlands, joined Apr 2010, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13105 times:

Quoting VCy (Reply 21):
However, not everything should happen, cause if it did then CY would be left only with its Greece routes  


That would have an 'OA-scenario-reek" to it... (OA recently having axed all A320's and being an all prop-airline now, what a shame).

What tough decisions to make now, esp. with the local economy to be spiralling down. One of the scenario's to save CY is for it to be bought by another airline (or investment group), as has been mentioned above. What can it offer other airlines? What can CY cash in on? There is so much competition in the region. Additionally, CY's network isn't very strong and frequencies on all routes are relatively low (most 1 x daily). I also don't think they have a very strong brand recognition in the North of EU. It is not an airline which comes to mind to most people when they need to go to AMM/CAI/BEY/etc. I would say. They lack the exposure of an alliance and they lack being part of a large FF-program like FB or M&M. Perhaps joining one of those would suddenly persuade more people to notice and use them? I know it is silly, but... it's nowadays not always the best (i.e. fares, service, routes) airlines that win, it usually is the one with the best / strongest FF-program. Look at all major airlines in the world compared to the boutique ones. It is the large bland ones what seem to win. So their loyality base doesn't seem very large. Locally it probably is, but the way the local economy is going... So why would anybody want to invest in CY? What can be the benefit in the long run?


User currently offlineDutchBoeing From Netherlands, joined Apr 2010, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13102 times:

Cyprus Airways and Alitalia together, now that sounds like a winning team... The blind leading the deaf!   (sorry...)

[Edited 2013-04-06 01:00:37]

User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 25, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13274 times:
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Quoting DutchBoeing (Reply 23):

Personally I always thought that Cyprus Airways is beyond salvation and I do not know why the Chinese want to invest. Naturally, I would be happy if they are bought and if they live to see another day.
China has been investing more and more into Cyprus, you can even see some billboard in Chinese now. There was also talk of launching seasonal flights between Cyprus (I believe they mentioned Paphos) and China. Who knows, let's hope we get some more information today.


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13272 times:
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Quoting DutchBoeing (Reply 23):
So why would anybody want to invest in CY? What can be the benefit in the long run?

My guess is that they see that in the long run they will benefit from its location. Its located between Europe, Asia and Africa. I know that every single other airline in the region has managed to achieve this and many of you will say there is no space for CY to compete with the likes of TK, EK etc. This will never happen. They can manage to do this on a smaller scale though. You'll probably never see CY flying to North America or South America, but with the correct management you may see them transiting passengers from Europe to Asia and Africa. (We are talking in the long run.) Under the correct management its location may be well taken advantage off to make it as a mini regional hub. Its advantage could be that LCA is much less busier than IST or DXB plus their new owners, most probably Chinese, will be able to make good use of the open air agreements within Europe. Additionally, many may see the potential benefit in the long run when the natural resources are extracted, which will create many jobs, and hopefully, rescue the economy  


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 13376 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
Well selling the LHR slots should bring in some money.

Yes so it looks like its a definate source of cash. Shame all the same to have to sell off the Family silver.

Quoting VCy (Reply 19):
i think this is the plan if the deal with the Chinese company fails. it would be a real shame if LHR is axed  

I would expect CY to keep some sort of operation from LTN for the Cypriot North London community and tourist traffic. They can tap into both markets then.


User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1432 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 13289 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 22):
CY's primary problem is its cost structure. Only by fixing it they can actually make a profit by flying tourists in and out of Cyprus.
Quoting OA260 (Reply 27):
I would expect CY to keep some sort of operation from LTN for the Cypriot North London community and tourist traffic. They can tap into both markets then.

I very much doubt that CY can compete on LON-LCA/PFO route against BA for the high end (efficiently run, FF program, economies of scale etc.) or EZY/MON for the tourist (both efficiently run, compete successfully in incredibly tough markets, economies of scale etc.). It just looks to me like a battle that cannot be won - going up against some of the most effective airlines in the world.

The best for Cyprus (not CY) might be to (a) focus on getting the passengers into Cyprus to spend money and not worrying which airline carries them there and (b) give CY to A3 for nothing and let A3 see what they can salvage (presumably with a requirement that A3 use the LHR slots for Cypriot not Greek flights).



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,(..51 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 13252 times:

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 28):
The best for Cyprus (not CY) might be to (a) focus on getting the passengers into Cyprus to spend money and not worrying which airline carries them there and (b) give CY to A3 for nothing and let A3 see what they can salvage (presumably with a requirement that A3 use the LHR slots for Cypriot not Greek flights).

A3 would be mad to take on CY . With the issues that CY have with regards pay/unions it would be a disaster even if A3 were given it for free.

Your right though there are more attractive options with Alliances and FF programs. Mind you BA have been getting alot of negative feedback about their LCA service recently.

Beijing Yi Xiang Da Investment Co Ltd are the company currently chewing over the books and seeing if they are prepared to sign on the dotted line.


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13011 times:
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www.sigmalive.com/news/local/38934 according to the article (in greek), the government is trying to connect the island with flights to China and also try and make the island a transit hub "Dubai style", but obviously to a smaller scale.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 29):
A3 would be mad to take on CY .

Agreed. But i think they may be able to launch alot of flights from LCA such as Rome, Milan, Barcelona, Madrid and enter the UK market with more destinations other than the ones already served. BHX, MAN, GLA, DUB and maybe even Liverpool could work from LCA. They could also use LCA to expand their Middle Eastern network.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 31, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 12940 times:

Quoting VCy (Reply 30):
Agreed. But i think they may be able to launch alot of flights from LCA

But would taking over CY enable them to make a go of it? I think they would need to create a new ULCC model and choose their routes carefully. DUB used to have scheduled services with Helios ( not the best example ) but It would be nice to see the link established again even on a seasonal basis. Taking on all of whats left and carrying on CY might not be the best way to go though. In this climate its like the lotto!

A3 could maybe take on some routes as A3 but they have already an ambitious program for 2013 which is either going to make or break them so adding more might be too risky.


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 12926 times:
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Quoting OA260 (Reply 31):
But would taking over CY enable them to make a go of it?

i didnt mean take over the airline   just take over some routes as A3. And obviously that will mean some CY employees will be able to find a job with A3 (in case it shuts down)


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 33, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 12906 times:

Quoting VCy (Reply 32):
i didnt mean take over the airline   just take over some routes as A3. And obviously that will mean some CY employees will be able to find a job with A3 (in case it shuts down)

Yes that might be possible. I do fear though that alot of the former CY employee's would be shed as after a 50% cull it still leaves way too many. Also they look like they will get no redundancy payments. Tough times. A3 would surely have minimal staff requirements for any new routes.


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 12862 times:
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Quoting OA260 (Reply 33):
A3 would surely have minimal staff requirements for any new routes.

A good thing is that CY's pilots are trained on A320s and A321s as well so that will make it easier i guess. But yes, its fair to say that even at such a scenario the majority of its current employees will be unemployed.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12837 times:
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There is a reason why no one is rushing to established direct links between Cyprus and Dublin. Last year the Irish tourists in Cyprus were the lowest yielding ones, on average they spent €70 per day (Israelis ranked number one with €250).
The flight is long, there is very little O&D and the tourist coming here are not big spenders. I doubt any airline would make a lot of money on this route. Actually, if there was money to be made then I am sure Ryanair would have launched flights to either Larnaca or Paphos by now.

There is no reason why Aegean should take over Cyprus Airways. After all, all they have to do is to wait a few more days and see what will happen with Cyprus Airways. They have crew based here (which I think are actually Greek and not Cypriots) and three A320s which are parked here throughout the winter season. Taking over the routes should not be a problem.


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12810 times:
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Quoting JU068 (Reply 35):
(Israelis ranked number one with €250).

woooow that's alot  Wow!
Quoting JU068 (Reply 35):
There is a reason why no one is rushing to established direct links between Cyprus and Dublin.

I'm just guessing that a direct flight will make it more preferable maybe? Its a different thing having a small amount of charter flights and a regular scheduled flight. Just my guess  


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 37, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12804 times:

Quoting VCy (Reply 34):
A good thing is that CY's pilots are trained on A320s and A321s as well so that will make it easier i guess. But yes, its fair to say that even at such a scenario the majority of its current employees will be unemployed.

Yes it was similar with OA. Some pilots went from A3 to OA and now some have gone back and to other A320/321 operators.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26011 posts, RR: 50
Reply 38, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 12684 times:

Quoting VCy (Reply 30):
according to the article (in greek), the government is trying to connect the island with flights to China and also try and make the island a transit hub "Dubai style", but obviously to a smaller scale.

LOL. That ship sailed long time ago.

Trying to make LCA into a regional hub not only will take lots of time, its will take massive investment in building a decent sized airline and network to make it worthwhile

But one could say in reality CY has already tried to do this for the last couple decades, by connecting places in Europe with the Levent region, Egypt and Gulf also.

However we know what CY did was quickly eclipse by much more more formidable competitors. Ignoring the ME3, and likes of TK, CY also has to compete with folks like ME, RJ, MS, AZ which are also busy trying to get a share of the transit game. Even the old OA tried hard to be such a carrier but by the 1990s even ATH was not much of a transit hub.

In my mind this is simply a silly dream that will cause even more massive red-ink for a Cypriot airline.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 12593 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 38):
LOL. That ship sailed long time ago.

Trying to make LCA into a regional hub not only will take lots of time, its will take massive investment in building a decent sized airline and network to make it worthwhile
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 38):
In my mind this is simply a silly dream that will cause even more massive red-ink for a Cypriot airline.

Well, yes obviously it will take alot of time. I dont think anyone thinks LCA will be a massive hub by next year   and by saying hub they dont mean huge stuff, but a much smaller one , which will be big enough for a small country like Cyprus.
That ship hasn't really sailed a long time ago, as with the correct product and pricing they will manage to achieve their mini hub idea.
The investment can take place through foreign interest. As already mentioned, the airline is close to being sold to a Chinese company that has alot of experience with airlines. Even if they fail to sell it, they will undergo a serious restructuring plan if they decide to keep the airline alive.
The recent developments in the economy have shaken up everyone on the island, therefore they will seek to do anything possible to become more efficient in any industry possible.
I wouldnt go as far as calling it a silly dream, but rather a logical & ambitious plan to take advantage of their geographical location, but you are entitled to your personal opinion    


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 40, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12530 times:

Quoting VCy (Reply 39):
I wouldnt go as far as calling it a silly dream, but rather a logical & ambitious plan to take advantage of their geographical location, but you are entitled to your personal opinion    

It certainly would be ambitious and of course if there was a chance I wish them luck with it. They picked themselves up after 1974 and prospered against all odds so lets hope the same resolve exists in both aviation and the country in general. When you think of what CY used to be and was the envy of management at OA in the state controlled days its amazing how it all turned out.


User currently onlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1678 posts, RR: 2
Reply 41, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12518 times:

CY building a "mini" hub is hardly a positive business plan to follow and certainly not some that that can be done well on a small fleet.

For a successful hub you needs lots of spokes, which means lots of flights, which means lots of planes.
Having a small fleet will not provide much opportunity.
Yes look at ME, or RJ or even the former OA, or even todays AZ and the difficulty they have in running a hub operation being a small player. Being small will force CY to discount heavily to attract any flow on the few connections they can offer, hardly quality revenue.

To me Cyrus has 1 option -- a very low cost, very efficient, high utilization LCC basically. The market by its nature is primarily a tourist one or ethnic diaspora which by their nature mean people looking for cheap tickets, so the airline needs to be built with expectation of earning low revenues to have a chance.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 42, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12343 times:
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Turning Larnaca into a regional mini-hub could work but it would take a lot of time and planning. There are many things that would work in their favour.
First of all, there are a lot of Lebanese and Israelis residing in Cyprus and they are extremely rich. The market is massive, mostly O&D, which is explained by MEA sending their A330-200 regularly into Larnaca, even if it is only a 20 minute flight. Back in the day, El Al used to send their B777s into Larnaca while Cyprus Airways sends very often their A321s into Tel Aviv.
There is a considerable market to Tehran (with around 3,000 Iranians living here) and Cyprus is a popular tourist destination for the Iranians. Last year the number of Iranian tourists grew so much that Mahan introduced scheduled flights from Tehran on their A310 (one could fly for as little as €170!). Other cities in the region can sustain direct flights by only relying on the O&D passengers (Cairo, Amman...).
One thing Cyprus Airways can do is that they can use the island's tourist potential and enter new markets where flights will be initially sustained through the sale of seats to tourist agencies. They had two great opportunities they missed last year, that was Brussels and Erbil. Erbil was a scheduled flight, which was quite successful, while Brussels was subsidized by the European Union due to the presidency. A friend of mine who works for the Tourist Organization of Cyprus in Paris told me that they have been pushing for Cyprus Airways to launch flights to Lyon and Marseille as there is great interest but for some reason they never did it.

I would also like to point out that before the massive increase of Middle Eastern carriers in Cyprus (sometime after 2006) Emirates operated around ten flights per week. Daily flights were on a B777-300 while the evening flights were on a mix of A340s and A330-200s. After that, many airlines such as Gulf Air, Etihad, Egypt Air, Royal Jordanian... either introduced their own flights to Larnaca or revised their schedules so as to allow connections via their own hubs. This hurt Emirates' loads and they were forced to stick with the one daily flight, currently operated by B777-200.

The main problem Cyprus Airways has is its cost structure, which does not allow it to operate efficiently. Furthermore, its unions have too much say. For example, my neighbour who was a pilot for Cyprus Airways told me that until recently most Cyprus Airways flights used to depart around 09:00 (and a lot still do) because the pilots and cabin crew could not be bothered to leave their homes earlier to fly.

Creating an ultra lowcost carrier would not work because Cyprus is too small and nothing would be achieved in the long run. They need to find a way to reduce the negative effects of their market's seasonality, and by expanding their regional network they can exactly do that.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 43, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12207 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 41):
For a successful hub you needs lots of spokes, which means lots of flights, which means lots of planes.
Having a small fleet will not provide much opportunity.

For sure they would need feed into a mini hub so unless they can team up with someone else it would be very hard. The diaspora on Cyprus would not support a certain route on its own wherever they hail from. Even the Greeks/Cypriots in MEL couldnt support diaspora flights and thats a huge amount of around 380,000 of Greek heritage/birth.

Cyprus may indeed need a LCC model and could also consider wet leasing their aircraft during the Winter when traffic is lower. The problem with teaming up with Tour Operators is that unless they are willing to take half of the losses ( should there be any ) by taking a guaranteed amount of allocation then its not that benefical.


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12117 times:

So, when do you expect the official announcement about the future of CY? Today (Sunday), tomorrow (Monday) or some time later?

Being honest, I don't think that there is any chance for CY to survive. Therefore, I can only hope that the end comes quick (that is, immediate shut-down). Please no live-sustaining measures by allowing the airline to remain operational throughout the summer season: That would just be a useless waste of money.

Concerning this (alledged) Chinese investor: Is there any reference that this company, Beijing Yi Xiang Da Investment, exists at all? Could it just be an empty box, just a name to calm down the public? Obviously, no airline wanted to invest in CY, so why would those Chinese guys succeed?

The reason why CY won't have any prospering future? Cyprus is generally a low-yielding market, which in today's market environment is the natural territory of LCC's. There are Ryanair, easyJet and Wizzair, plus a large number of small charter airlines serving the island. There just insn't any space left for an airline with less than 10 aircraft.

And to all of those who think that CY should try and put up a "mini hub". Guys, what is this supposed to be? To my knowledge, there is not a single self-sustained airline operating a small number of aircraft on scheduled flights out of an airport with a significant amount of competition. Nowhere.

The concept of "one flag carrier per country" is dead. Cyprus with its 1 million inhabitants and near-bankruptcy should adress more pressing problems than the fate of a doomed company. Of course, sorry for those directly affected, but it's a question of the greater good.



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User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 45, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12052 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 44):
So, when do you expect the official announcement about the future of CY? Today (Sunday), tomorrow (Monday) or some time later?

Monday there is another meeting so more will come from that no doubt. The other thing is anyone taking over CY would also have to deal with a EU investigation into state aid so it might be better to just sell the name and logo and shut down to avoid any implications from future rulings. Then a private company could launch without the debt burdens.


User currently offlineCassi From Hungary, joined Apr 2010, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11983 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 44):
Concerning this (alledged) Chinese investor:

The appearance of mysterious, unheard of last-minute Chinese (or Russian, or Chinese-Russian) investors is usually the last stage before bankruptcy.


User currently offlinepanais From Cyprus, joined May 2008, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11790 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 44):
Therefore, I can only hope that the end comes quick (that is, immediate shut-down). Please no live-sustaining measures by allowing the airline to remain operational throughout the summer season: That would just be a useless waste of money.

This seems to be the only prescription offered by Germans to Cyprus lately.(Sorry, just couldn't resist, just look at the banking fiasco)

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 44):
Beijing Yi Xiang Da Investment, exists at all?

This company does not exist in Cyprus, it is not registered. I bet this looks like one of those specials, where someone signs a contract and then turns around to sell it to real companies, who do not want to show that they are interested.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 44):
Obviously, no airline wanted to invest in CY, so why would those Chinese guys succeed?

You should look at the map from a Chinese perspective. Chinese increasingly want to travel abroad and Israel, Egypt, Greece are staff that they are taught in their history class, I presume. Additionally, Cyprus Airways having national carrier status has slots for all African countries, where China is investing a lot of money.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 44):
Cyprus is generally a low-yielding market, which in today's market environment is the natural territory of LCC's

Again that depends on which way you look at it. Although non Cypriots are as Michael O'Leary said "...air passengers are hardy beasts—parsimonious when buying a ticket, profligate once in the air—willing to endure discomfort and indignity...", this does not work for Cypriots. If there is value in an airline, we will sepnd some extra Euro.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 44):
And to all of those who think that CY should try and put up a "mini hub". Guys, what is this supposed to be? To my knowledge, there is not a single self-sustained airline operating a small number of aircraft on scheduled flights out of an airport with a significant amount of competition. Nowhere.

Agree, CY as is today does not have any experience in running a minihub or has the financial cloud to fund such plan. They tried so many times and failed each one.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 44):
The concept of "one flag carrier per country" is dead.

Dead in Europe, not in the middle east or Africa or CIS where Cyprus is right in the middle, EU most Southeastern place.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 44):
Cyprus with its 1 million inhabitants and near-bankruptcy should adress more pressing problems than the fate of a doomed company.

This is similar to what the American did with Berlin when the Soviets blocked all access in 1948. Why should the Americans cared about Berlin, after-all it was a burned up place. When you live on an island you feel like a 1948 Berliner.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 44):
Of course, sorry for those directly affected, but it's a question of the greater good.

I feel that this is a political statement and as a Cypriot, I am offended by this. Define greater good to the 45 year old special needs person who her 75 year old parents placed their money with Laiki bank that would have taken care of her after they are gone. Or define greater good to thousands who are getting fired just because their employer had their accounts with Bank of Cyprus or Laiki.


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11753 times:
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Quoting panais (Reply 47):
This seems to be the only prescription offered by Germans to Cyprus lately.(Sorry, just couldn't resist, just look at the banking fiasco)
Quoting panais (Reply 47):
I feel that this is a political statement and as a Cypriot, I am offended by this

My thoughts exactly but tried not to turn it into a political discussion. Glad you pointed this out tho  


User currently onlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1678 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11712 times:

The more I think about it, the more I realize place like Cyprus does not need an own airline.

Being in EU it already has openskies, and it can adopt instead an incentive policy to incourage increased air service from select routes or markets. Much cheaper then running a costly enterprise.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 50, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11694 times:
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Quoting mercure1 (Reply 49):

Yes, we know you have come to realize that. You do not miss a chance to remind us of that. The thing is that Cyprus is an island and it has to have a stable airline which will provide air links to the neighbouring countries. Relying on airlines such as Wizz Air and Ryanair is not a good option because they can leave as soon as the subsidies are not there. As Ryanair has done in the past.


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11680 times:
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Quoting JU068 (Reply 50):
Relying on airlines such as Wizz Air and Ryanair is not a good option because they can leave as soon as the subsidies are not there. As Ryanair has done in the past.

      Plus, i'd like to add that many Cypriots, despite their economic situation, including me and the majority of the people i know, would rather choose a full service carrier over a LCC one. Of course this may change now, but i m just saying how the situation was until recently.
And i totally agree about the Ryanair point. It would be a very dangerous move giving someone like them so much market share and then having them threaten you all the time that they'll pull out unless you satisfy their wants!


User currently offlinepanais From Cyprus, joined May 2008, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11679 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 49):
Being in EU it already has openskies, and it can adopt instead an incentive policy to incourage increased air service from select routes or markets. Much cheaper then running a costly enterprise.

The reality here is that the goverment turned CY into a costly enterprise. If it was private, it would have a good chance of surviving.


User currently onlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1678 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11683 times:

If you are afraid of Wizz or Ryanair then you continue subsidy, or give to other airlines for other routes. Be cheaper in long run.

In Tahiti we unfortunately create a monster by propping up loss making airline and other airlines decide to abandon market.

Now everyone from hotels, to government start to realize it would have been better to offer open-skies and helping subsidy to bring air service then feed loss making enterprise for last 10+ years. But its late and hard to bring back lost airlines.

Cyprus similar. In your tourist season lots of people will fly there, and no subsidy needed. Only in winter time you need to offer help to companies to continue air links. Also Cyprus is very close to other markets and likely good underlying demand anyhow so it should not cost government or industry too much to encourage ongoing air service.

As someone mention before, nostalgic idea of national airlines is dead, unless you want to destroy the treasury. Let the open market decide what will happen, with only minimal assistance on the sidelines from government needed.


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11659 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 49):
The more I think about it, the more I realize place like Cyprus does not need an own airline.

Being in EU it already has openskies, and it can adopt instead an incentive policy to incourage increased air service from select routes or markets. Much cheaper then running a costly enterprise.

Indeed, this is what I wanted to point out by stating that

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 44):
Cyprus [...] should adress more pressing problems than the fate of a doomed company.

All these arguments calling for CY to take advantage of the country's geographical position are in my opinion void. From an economical standpoint, the romantic statement that Cyprus lies between Europe, Asia and Africa (like it doesn't really belong to either continent) is useless. The same can be said about the Chinese perspective á la

Quoting panais (Reply 47):
You should look at the map from a Chinese perspective. Chinese increasingly want to travel abroad and Israel, Egypt, Greece are staff that they are taught in their history class, I presume. Additionally, Cyprus Airways having national carrier status has slots for all African countries, where China is investing a lot of money.

The truth is: Cyprus is a member of the European Union and (again from the economical point of view) as such a European country. That's it. This simple statement fully defines the rules of the game. Any Cypriot airline is organized under EU law. If someone from China might want to invest in an EU airline, I quite think there are better possibilities.

Sorry if this might hurt the feelings of Cypriots, but in my opinion this is just like the cookie crumbles in a free market zone [and this has nothing to do with me being from Germany]. Speaking with mercure1's words:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 53):
Let the open market decide what will happen, with only minimal assistance on the sidelines from government needed.


[Edited 2013-04-07 12:55:08]


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User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1095 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11642 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 50):
Yes, we know you have come to realize that. You do not miss a chance to remind us of that. The thing is that Cyprus is an island and it has to have a stable airline which will provide air links to the neighbouring countries. Relying on airlines such as Wizz Air and Ryanair is not a good option because they can leave as soon as the subsidies are not there. As Ryanair has done in the past.
Quoting mercure1 (Reply 53):
If you are afraid of Wizz or Ryanair then you continue subsidy, or give to other airlines for other routes. Be cheaper in long run.

The FR/W6 thing is pure snobbism. Cyprus has a good number of holiday airlines (Thomas Cook, Monarch...), some flying year round to destinations popular for Cypriots (i.e. the UK for VFR, students, etc.)

Because of its location and economic/tourist links, it has too its good sheer of Middle East carriers (most of them) which provide excellent connectivity East of Cyprus. There are a few major legacies flying there (BA, LH, SU...) And on top you have Aegean that has started services to Europe (London, Kiev), with access to Star Alliance, that could well serve as the "national" carrier if CY goes under.

I can't see the point of CY; if unfortunately it goes under... no one will miss it. Aegean could open more ex-CY routes (specially to Star hubs) if they are viable, for instance ZRH or FRA. Ryanair and Wizzair could take some of the minor routes and even estimulate them (like it has happened in BUD).

[Edited 2013-04-07 13:21:43]

User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11603 times:
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Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 55):
I can't see the point of CY; if unfortunately it goes under... no one will miss it.

I see what you mean but, talking from a local aviation enthusiast point of view, many will miss it. And i'm not referring just to the thousands of employees! The airline has great history, i mean they managed to survive the 1974 war and shift its hub to another airport through alot of difficulties. And, yes it is a loss making carrier but it doesnt mean that the flights are empty... The majority of the locals prefer using CY for their trips abroad.
However, I do agree with your point about A3 if CY does not manage to survive  


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7747 posts, RR: 3
Reply 57, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11454 times:

Problem is, that unless they can fill their planes, and do so at a profit, then they have little future.

User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 58, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 11367 times:
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Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 55):
The FR/W6 thing is pure snobbism

It is not snobbism at all. Cyprus has really bad experience with Ryanair so it is natural for everyone here to be reluctant to rely on them. As for Wizz Air, they are a small and insignificant player in the Cypriot market. It is only now that they will have some sort of presence with a few additional flights. And these flights might be only seasonal so...

The only carrier I would feel comfortable with, and I am sure most of Cypriots would feel the same, is Aegean. They are a decent carrier with a good network and their brand is well known and well respected here. Like I said it in the past, in my opinion the best way out of this whole mess is to just let Cyprus Airways go and have Aegean take over.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 54):

This will turn the thread into a political discussion so I will avoid answering you in details. But I would just like to point out that the European Union (dominated by a few countries from the North) has only now remembered that they have political morals and that they should enforce the European regulations onto their fellow members in the Union. It's funny how cashing out made them change their decade-long policy.


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11301 times:

Back to the current news: From what today's papers say, CY needs EUR 80 million to just survive through the summer season. The airline could only survive this long because of state aid (in 2012: 31.1 million "barely legal subsidies"(*) plus 20 million compensation for lacking Turkish airspace rights).

It has gone quite silent about any foreign investor, so the only question that remains seems to be when CY will be shut down. From an economical point of view, the airline is not viable, so it's just a question of national pride whether Cyprus should further pay for it.

(*)The problem is, that the EU commission is already investigating into possible illegal state aid and violation of the free market rules. Thus, CY might come to a point where a total of EUR 104 million that has been granted over the last years must be returned. Obviously, this would mean immediate bankruptcy

Then, who can say something about the current number of employees at CY? Wikipedia gives 1,200 (per a 2010 source), whereas current news speak about 560.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 60, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 11222 times:
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Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 59):

From what I know 1,200 is in total while 560 is the number that was supposed to stay after the staff reduction. From what I know there weren't any so...


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 61, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 11187 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 59):
Then, who can say something about the current number of employees at CY? Wikipedia gives 1,200 (per a 2010 source), whereas current news speak about 560.

Its actually nearer 1000 now with 50% ( 500 ) to be slashed in any restructuring bid. Another thing is that if CY were to close only 4 routes would be lost that are not currently served by other carriers. I guess if those routes were profitable then A3 or another carrier could step in to fill that void.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 62, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 11180 times:
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Quoting OA260 (Reply 61):

Exactly, as was the case with Milan.


User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2743 posts, RR: 4
Reply 63, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11008 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 49):
The more I think about it, the more I realize place like Cyprus does not need an own airline.

Agreed. I also note that you say that Cyprus (I'm assuming you mean the government) doesn't need to own an airline. That doesn't preclude a private carrier starting up.

Can someone explain what it is exactly that Cyprus Airlines brings to the market that other carriers can't, and profitably and sustainably?

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 53):
If you are afraid of Wizz or Ryanair then you continue subsidy, or give to other airlines for other routes. Be cheaper in long run.

I agree. It's funny how the airline industry is separated from all others in this respect - for some reason people need to see their country's name on the side of an aeroplane. But so many other industries maintain facilities and services and manufacturing lines in countries because of favourable tax incentives and subsidies. why not save yourself the bother and do likewise for airlines?

Quoting JU068 (Reply 58):
The only carrier I would feel comfortable with,

Evidently, not enough to pay the fares that would ensure its profitability.

Why do you assume that the end of CY would result in this vacuum? The market is dynamic, it reacts to an opportunity (or a threat). Other carriers would likely to step up to the plate, including full service carriers on those routes that warrant them. Alternatively, a wholly private carrier could emerge based in Cyprus at no risk to the public purse.

The country is in pretty dire straits. Times like these call for the slashing of a few sacred cows and an airline is not something that scarce funds should be piled into right now, especially when there are so many other options available in the market.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 64, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11016 times:

Seems there is a very strong chance that all CY flights will be suspended. The government says is cant assist even if the law allowed. Not looking good thats for sure ! The clock is ticking.

User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1095 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10984 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 58):
It is not snobbism at all. Cyprus has really bad experience with Ryanair so it is natural for everyone here to be reluctant to rely on them. As for Wizz Air, they are a small and insignificant player in the Cypriot market. It is only now that they will have some sort of presence with a few additional flights. And these flights might be only seasonal so...

I am just saying that whether CY goes bankrupt (hopefully not), Cyprus will not be at the mercy of Ryanair's wishes. There are a good share of airlines (Gulf carriers, European legacies, holiday charters... and Aegean) flying there.


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10969 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 64):
Seems there is a very strong chance that all CY flights will be suspended. The government says is cant assist even if the law allowed. Not looking good thats for sure ! The clock is ticking.

The corresponding news story:
http://famagusta-gazette.com/breakin...ons-may-be-suspended-p18874-69.htm

Is there any deadline by when a solution for CY must be found?



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User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 67, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10916 times:
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Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 63):
Evidently, not enough to pay the fares that would ensure its profitability

Do you have any proof that Aegean's operations in Cyprus are loss making? The fact that they have added flights this summer proves otherwise.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 65):

Ok, then we are on the same page. I was merely pointing out why Wizz Air and especially Ryanair are a bit problematic for this market.


User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10788 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 44):
The reason why CY won't have any prospering future? Cyprus is generally a low-yielding market, which in today's market environment is the natural territory of LCC's. There are Ryanair, easyJet and Wizzair, plus a large number of small charter airlines serving the island. There just insn't any space left for an airline with less than 10 aircraft.

And to all of those who think that CY should try and put up a "mini hub". Guys, what is this supposed to be? To my knowledge, there is not a single self-sustained airline operating a small number of aircraft on scheduled flights out of an airport with a significant amount of competition. Nowhere.

Despite Cyprus being a low yielding market (hopefully this will change in the next few years), I can still see space for a Cypriot airline operating out of LCA and even offering East - West connections.

The problem with CY is neither the low yielding market nor the seasonal Cyprus market.

The main problem is that CY operations were usually driven by political criteria rather than the market resulting in an extremely high cost basis hindering profits from the very beginning.

It is true that Governments are not the most efficient operators and this is also the case with CY which never managed to operate efficiently in the free EU market.



CY@Uk
User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10706 times:

Just read on twitter that the CY booking engine does not seem to be working anymore.


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User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10705 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 69):
Just read on twitter that the CY booking engine does not seem to be working anymore.

I 've just tried booking a LCA-ATH return trip and the online system worked fine up to the card payment which (of course) I didn't do.

In any case, my personal opinion is that CY will be gone sooner or later because they are in a very bad position and I am not sure if there is time for any investor to do anything at this stage.

I heard on the news tonight that shutting down could occur quite fast and in fact this coming Wednesday when the Cabinet will meet to discuss the subject.

I just hope that any airlines that try to fill the CY gap "believe" in the Cypriot market and don't just offer a few seasonal routes over the 5-6 month peak season and then nothing.

It was really sad not having connections via FRA during Winter 12-13.

[Edited 2013-04-08 12:15:33]


CY@Uk
User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2743 posts, RR: 4
Reply 71, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 10535 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 67):
Do you have any proof that Aegean's operations in Cyprus are loss making? The fact that they have added flights this summer proves otherwise.

Apologies, I had thought you were referring to CY. Though the very presence of Aegean supports the idea that the market will provide just fine without CY.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 72, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10458 times:
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It makes me wonder if Cyprus Airways is shut down tomorrow, which I think it will (unfortunately), then it is likely that the airport will fire some people as well. Since Cyprus Airways contributed to around 20% of the traffic (though this number is higher during the winter months).

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 73, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10377 times:

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 70):

Well apparantly there are also 400,000 advance bookings so thats a large number and alot of those are over the peak Summer season.


User currently offlineEI564 From Ireland, joined May 2007, 373 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10339 times:

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 71):
Though the very presence of Aegean supports the idea that the market will provide just fine without CY.

Cyprus Airlines failing would probably not be an absolute disaster for Cyprus (with the large exception of those working for the airline) but lets not have blind faith in the "market".


User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10153 times:

Quoting EI564 (Reply 74):
Cyprus Airlines failing would probably not be an absolute disaster for Cyprus (with the large exception of those working for the airline) but lets not have blind faith in the "market".

It will be for the employees of the airline and their families

As far as scheduled (i.e. non low cost) airlines are considered, I can only see A3 strengthening their base at LCA and taking over some routes, and perhaps a few others increasing frequency. For example BA could increase LHR to double daily if the two daily CY flights are lost.

Under a possible "closure" scenario, Cyprus will automatically loose connections to CDG, AMS and FCO unless airlines based at these airports take over the routes. KLM and AZ already code share with CY on AMS and FCO respectively so I guess they know the market quite well and could try adding the routes to their networks.

Lets wait.



CY@Uk
User currently offlineCyba From Cape Verde, joined Nov 2005, 209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10157 times:

Quoting EI564 (Reply 74):
Cyprus Airlines failing would probably not be an absolute disaster for Cyprus (with the large exception of those working for the airline) but lets not have blind faith in the "market".

The one recent example is the failure of Malev. Within days Ryanair and Wizz announced increased or new services to many of the destinations that MA used to operate to. And legacy carriers did the same, e.g. RO doubled its frequencies to BUD within months.

In the short term there's a problem a) to re-accommodate customers already booked to fly CY and b) to provide feed to the tourism industry. If CY went bust now then this will have a ripple effect on the tourism industry but then my view is that if the airline cannot be sustained through the end of the season, then the quicker they make the decision the more time is available for other airlines to step in to fill the gaps. Waiting until May or June will only make the situation worse.

In the medium to long term looking at CY's routes:
- London will probably see increased frequencies by some or all of A3/ BA/ EZY. The question here is what happens to CY's two LHR slots but they're a valuable asset which will likely be sold to the highest bidder.
- ATH: A3 will end up with a monopoly on the market but I wouldn't be surprised if EZY or FR didn't step in with complementary services.
-CDG. If AF/KL doesn't step in (unlikely), then FR or EZY may very well do to serve the O&D market
-AMS is important for feed but others (e.g. LH/ BA) will pick up that market.
- TLV is the only other destination I can think of with no real alternatives to CY at the moment. If LY doesn't step in then Arkia will likely increase its services. Maybe even A3 will step in.

I may have forgotten a few but overall I think other destinations are not so problematic.

So long-term I don't see this as a big problem for the country.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 77, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10144 times:

Quoting Cyba (Reply 76):
- TLV is the only other destination I can think of with no real alternatives to CY at the moment. If LY doesn't step in then Arkia will likely increase its services. Maybe even A3 will step in.

With A3 starting new routes from HER and SKG to TLV that could be a possibility even with a tag.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 78, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10131 times:
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Alitheia just reported that the government will not shut down the airline, at least not for the time being, but that they will implement the 6+1 deal. They didn't explain what it was, they just said that some staff will be fired and some other measures will be introduced. Does anyone have more details on this?

User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10109 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 78):

Alitheia just reported that the government will not shut down the airline, at least not for the time being, but that they will implement the 6+1 deal. They didn't explain what it was, they just said that some staff will be fired and some other measures will be introduced. Does anyone have more details on this?

The 6+1 scenario is to keep only the 6 leased A320s & the old owned A320 (as a spare) and get rid of all A319s and A321s (already happening).

This will unfortunately mean that a lot of employees will have to go home but the airline could survive Summer and provide time to the Government to find an Investor.



CY@Uk
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 80, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10093 times:
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Quoting CYatUK (Reply 79):

Great, thanks for the clarification. I suppose they will get the salary reductions and a revised working schedule?


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10090 times:
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Any idea if the DOH route will start as said?

User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10086 times:
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Quoting CYatUK (Reply 79):
The 6+1 scenario is to keep only the 6 leased A320s & the old owned A320 (as a spare) and get rid of all A319s and A321s (already happening).

This will unfortunately mean that a lot of employees will have to go home but the airline could survive Summer and provide time to the Government to find an Investor.

Personally , i don't like this option but at least they will help the tourism this summer, so fair enough  


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 83, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10085 times:
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From the Cyprus Mail article:

'The restructuring plan reportedly calls for a drastic downsizing: the fleet would be stripped down from 11 to 6 aircraft, and one in two employees would be made redundant. The airline currently has some 1,000 people on its payroll. After the redundancies, remaining staff could suffer pay cuts.
One major headache concerns the fate of the CY employees’ provident fund, held with the Bank of Cyprus. The fund had invested in bank securities, and with the ‘haircut’ it stands to lose around €10m.
Meanwhile the pilots’ trade union PASYPI yesterday urged authorities to conclude a restructuring plan as soon as possible, warning that closure of the airline would impact the economy at large.
In a press release, the union said the airline needs financial support to carry it through for the next 1 to 3 months, “after which revenues will come in from the increased air traffic during the tourist season.”
The union argued that CY has already pre-sold around 400,000 seats for the summer.
“It would be criminal...to allow Cyprus Airways to collapse today,” it added'

Full story can be found here:
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/cash-stra...unning-out-cyprus-airways/20130409


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 84, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10050 times:

Nothing really more than we already knew . What they need to do is make a decision fast! May is coming and the tourist season with it. They need to make sure they can honor those 400K bookings as any collapse in June/July/August would be a major disaster and cause alot more pain to the passengers involved and to the Cyprus Tourist industry.

User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2743 posts, RR: 4
Reply 85, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10040 times:

Quoting EI564 (Reply 74):
Cyprus Airlines failing would probably not be an absolute disaster for Cyprus (with the large exception of those working for the airline) but lets not have blind faith in the "market".

It's the only alternative to the existing non-market solution - government run - which hasn't worked out so great. Afterall...

Quoting Cyba (Reply 76):
The one recent example is the failure of Malev. Within days Ryanair and Wizz announced increased or new services to many of the destinations that MA used to operate to. And legacy carriers did the same, e.g. RO doubled its frequencies to BUD within months.

Exactly. There will always be short-term disruption but as it is the carrier is halving in size. It will eventually dwindle to irrelevance and LCCs will pick up the slack if it's all the island can sustain. Given the short distances involved, I don't see what the problem is other than snobbery and, perhaps, connections to longer-haul flights.


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10050 times:

With the A319s leaving the fleet, which flights will be cut? Currently, they are rotated between ATH, LCA, HER, SKG and RHO.

The A319s are quite heavily used, though, with 8 flights per day. Most of CY's A320s only have 4 flights per day.

I would expect the LCA-FRA-ZRH-LCA to be cut instead, which would free one A320. Maybe even the LHR flights? CY could make quite a bit of money by selling the slots, and I feel that they should rely on a higher fleet utilization, which means shorter flights at higher frequencies.

As I said above, let's hope this indeed turns out to be a sustainable solution which keeps Cyprus Airways alive, and not just a procrastination of the inevitable.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineDutchBoeing From Netherlands, joined Apr 2010, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10039 times:

Ok, well, good they might survive, albeit in a hugely slimmed form. Getting rid of the A319/A321's must also mean a slash in routes or at least frequencies. Any idea which routes will be axed or at least have a frequency reduction?

User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10002 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 86):
With the A319s leaving the fleet, which flights will be cut? Currently, they are rotated between ATH, LCA, HER, SKG and RHO.

The A319s are quite heavily used, though, with 8 flights per day. Most of CY's A320s only have 4 flights per day.

I would expect the LCA-FRA-ZRH-LCA to be cut instead, which would free one A320. Maybe even the LHR flights? CY could make quite a bit of money by selling the slots, and I feel that they should rely on a higher fleet utilization, which means shorter flights at higher frequencies.

As I said above, let's hope this indeed turns out to be a sustainable solution which keeps Cyprus Airways alive, and not just a procrastination of the inevitable.
Quoting DutchBoeing (Reply 87):
Ok, well, good they might survive, albeit in a hugely slimmed form. Getting rid of the A319/A321's must also mean a slash in routes or at least frequencies. Any idea which routes will be axed or at least have a frequency reduction?

I would expect that, if such scenario is realized, CY will try to keep routes like ATH, SKG, LHR, BEY and TLV and possibly AMS and FCO.

I would also expect that routes like FRA, MUC, ZRH, SOF, etc will be cut given that these routes are "heavily served" by other airlines too.

SVO is a tricky one given the expected increase of tourism from Russia this summer.

Just my   



CY@Uk
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 89, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10005 times:
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Well, I am sure they will close their base in Greece- that's for sure. I do not know how many aircraft are based over there.

From Larnaca, Sofia might one of the destinations to go with Wizz Air entering the market now. Then again the market itself is rather large, but I do not know if it is large enough for three airlines.
Milan was already suspended and who knows what will happen with Vienna. It can survive the summer but I doubt they can compete with Austrian Airlines.

Amsterdam is currently operated by an A320 and it will most likely stay as it is, four times per week.
Athens is currently operated three times per day with a mix of A319s and A320s. I am sure they will keep the same number of flights but all operated by A320s.

Doha which starts May 15 is scheduled as three times per week, though the one weekly flight on Wednesdays with an A319 might either be cancelled upgauged to an A320. Though this flight is still not loaded in their system but it is listed as one of their destination.

Four weekly to Frankfurt (one weekly via Munich) will most likely stay, change in frequency is possible. These flights are filled with German tourists. I do not know what they might do with Munich but it might stay as well.

I don't know what will happen to Moscow, because of Turkey their flight is one hour longer. Unless they are making crazy money on this route I do not see it staying for long.

Looking at their schedule it seems that both A319s were based in Greece, or at least operated most of the flights to Greece. In other words, their Larnaca network will not suffer as much.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 90, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9994 times:
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Quoting CYatUK (Reply 88):
I would also expect that routes like FRA, MUC, ZRH, SOF, etc will be cut given that these routes are "heavily served" by other airlines too.

Hmm I would not bet my money on either Zurich or Frankfurt. Both of these routes see good loads as Cyprus is a popular destination among the Swiss and the Germans. Mind you, Cyprus Airways used to send their A321 to Frankfurt during the low season. With their improved cost structure I am sure they will manage to actually come close to a profit on these routes. None of these routes were considered problematic in the past.

There are two routes that might work from Larnaca but which are not operated directly. One is Berlin while the other one is Barcelona.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 91, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9993 times:

Cyprus Airways management might not have the luxury to pic and choose the routes! With the aircraft gone they are going to have to be very selective on what they axe and what they leave if this works. They may not be able to cover all the routes they want to even on a reduced basis.

User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 92, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9982 times:
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Quoting OA260 (Reply 91):

Yes, but the thing is that the A321s and the A319s are leaving the fleet. So looking at their current summer timetable the following routes are operated by A319s:

1. Athens (nine weekly)
2. Doha (one weekly)
3. Munich (one weekly)
4. Vienna (one weekly)

So Larnaca should not suffer so much.


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9962 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 92):
Yes, but the thing is that the A321s and the A319s are leaving the fleet. So looking at their current summer timetable the following routes are operated by A319s:

1. Athens (nine weekly)
2. Doha (one weekly)
3. Munich (one weekly)
4. Vienna (one weekly)

So Larnaca should not suffer so much.

But then again, who says that the ATH network won't be kept, using the A320 instead of the A319, and other routes be cut? Don't forget that CY heavily relies on the Greek market, with deploying one A319 on something like HER-ATH-SKG-ATH-RHO-SKG-RHO-ATH.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 94, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9951 times:
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Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 93):

Well, I do not know how they are performing in Greece but I heard rumours that they are not doing great. I guess we will just have to wait and see. I personally believe that they will concentrate more on Cyprus, especially now when they are in a crisis.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 95, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9952 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 93):
But then again, who says that the ATH network won't be kept, using the A320 instead of the A319, and other routes be cut?

Indeed with this kind of restructuring absolutely nothing is off the table.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3024 posts, RR: 8
Reply 96, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9901 times:
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Think i said in the earlier 321 disposal thread to expect a minimum of one slot pair at LHR to disposed off and that's almost certainly the midday pair as these have value where as the late evening pair are virtually worthless

The Greek domestics need to go right now and if the fuel subsidy goes then Moscow really can't continue. Better just putting their code on Aeroflot

The rump service should be Amsterdam Athens Salonika Beirut and Tel Av iv
Amsterdam handles a lot of cargo worth retaining

They need utilisation and let's be frank a resolution with Turkey otherwise All Cypriot carriers are going to continue to be black holes for ever

Whilst the location may have been of interest in West- East transit in the past
The ship has sailed and what with Syria and Egyptian issues, The interfada, and exclusion from Turkey CY were always handicapped


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 97, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9806 times:
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Quoting rutankrd (Reply 96):
fuel subsidy

This will most likely stay as no one ever questioned it. Plus, I think even the European Union is not opposing it.


Does anyone know how much money they can get from selling the London Heathrow slots?


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9772 times:
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Quoting JU068 (Reply 90):
There are two routes that might work from Larnaca but which are not operated directly. One is Berlin while the other one is Barcelona.

For sure! Always wondered why there were no direct flights with Spain until Ryan (and those flights were packed!)

On another note, I think giving up their LHR is absolutely stupid! Yes, they will gain alot of money by doing so in the short term, but letting go of the Heathrow slots?! No way! The route is so popular and they can't just let it go to get money from the slots.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 99, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9767 times:

Protest marches by the staff of Cyprus Airways tomorrow ! I dont see what good that will do to be honest. They are going to demand that the government save CY but the government doesnt have any money .

http://www.cybc.com.cy/index.php/cyp...ιακών-αερογραμμών


User currently onlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1678 posts, RR: 2
Reply 100, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9733 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 95):
Indeed with this kind of restructuring absolutely nothing is off the table.

  

Yes there needs to be deep and painful cuts. Things like nostalgia and big dreams have not place at table now.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 97):
Does anyone know how much money they can get from selling the London Heathrow slots?

See Reply 17 for idea.

Quoting VCy (Reply 98):
On another note, I think giving up their LHR is absolutely stupid! Yes, they will gain alot of money by doing so in the short term, but letting go of the Heathrow slots?! No way! The route is so popular and they can't just let it go to get money from the slots.

Use LGW, STN or LTN instead.

Many secondary airlines like CY sell LHR slots and move to other airports. Make good sense.


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9739 times:
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Quoting mercure1 (Reply 100):
Use LGW, STN or LTN instead.

Many secondary airlines like CY sell LHR slots and move to other airports. Make good sense.

Heathrow is Heathrow though, their route is very well established here. Plus they have their agreement with VS!


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3024 posts, RR: 8
Reply 102, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9735 times:
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Quoting VCy (Reply 98):
On another note, I think giving up their LHR is absolutely stupid! Yes, they will gain alot of money by doing so in the short term, but letting go of the Heathrow slots?! No way! The route is so popular and they can't just let it go to get money from the slots.

Its not just the slot value and bums on seats through.

Its utilisation the route (due to the turkish problem) ties up an aircraft (the size of an A320) for 10-12 hours for a single return rotation and with the regional/local issues few local options remain to increase utilisation.
The A320 also abandons the opportunity to carry valuable cargo - Its too small.

THATS THE PROBLEM and the reason for the domestic Greek operation !

Many of those Charters and LCC operate later afternoon/evening East and overnight West allowing for one or two close Med flights from homebase !

Unlike the competition they are starved of commercially viable multiple daily 3-4 hour rotations that the A320 thrives on.

Ju068 read early that you considered CY should tender for Charter work - They tried that through Eurocypria for many years and even that made little if any money !


User currently onlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1678 posts, RR: 2
Reply 103, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9739 times:

Yes LHR is LHR, but there is a cost to do business there. You need high revenues to cover such premium airport.

Cyprus more leisure or ethnic market maybe better match for other London airports.

Also VS deal might end soon with new venture they seek to enter with AF-KL and Delta in USA.

Anyhow - as they say "beggars can't be choosers". At moment faith of CY rest in hand of its bank account reality.


User currently offlineTK105 From Turkey, joined Mar 2013, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9702 times:

Is there any information available about number of passengers from south using Ercan for TK or H9?

For what destinations and is this effecting CY?


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 105, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9687 times:

Quoting TK105 (Reply 104):
Is there any information available about number of passengers from south using Ercan for TK or H9?

For what destinations and is this effecting CY?

There are no doubt some who did but not a sizeable amount. In fact British and other Ex Pats have been flying back from LCA for years on the UK and German charter flights as they were often cheaper than ECN.

It was mentioned before that last year around 1500 Greek Cypriot citizens who fled their debts crossed the border and flew from ECN to avoid possible detention at LCA.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26011 posts, RR: 50
Reply 106, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9680 times:

Yes Southern Cypriots do use at Ercan and its growing. Also growing number of charter flights to bring tourist to the island via Ercan.

From a Southern Cypriot paper:
“Unfortunately, it is true that a significant proportion of passengers choose to travel through Tymbou [Ercan] and that is sad.”
“We are deeply concerned about the increase in passenger traffic at the illegal airport at Tymbou,” he said.
“We find ourselves before a considerable dynamic which appears to be evolving in a dangerous manner and causing significant damage to the economic and general interests of the country,”


http://www.cyprus-mail.com/airport/c...reased-air-traffic-tymbou/20130117


Ercan now handles double the flights of Paphos, and approaching the volume or Larnaca. Could become the busiest on the island the way things are going.

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 107, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9667 times:

In my view they should keep the routes where they have code-share agreements and/or are the only operator. AMS, CDG, FCO, BEY, SVO, SOF, LHR (better switch to LGW) plus ATH and SKG due to close ties between the two countries and maybe TLV.


'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 108, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9651 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 106):
Ercan now handles double the flights of Paphos, and approaching the volume or Larnaca. Could become the busiest on the island the way things are going.

The thing that will most likely happen is a futher slump at LCA and PFO and an increase at ECN. With the new terminal and runway its supposed to at least triple its annual capacity over the next 3-4 years. There will be not so much the issue of people crossing from the South to the North but the North will be getting an increase in tourist numbers and flights from direct flights from Turkey and I expect from certain other destinations also.


User currently offlineTK105 From Turkey, joined Mar 2013, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9639 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 106):
Ercan now handles double the flights of Paphos, and approaching the volume or Larnaca. Could become the busiest on the island the way things are going.

Thanks.

As they are planning a new parallel runway at ECN and new terminal building is already under construction with 20M passengers a year target in mind (a la AYT), I wonder if this is ever possible without attracting passengers from complete island? Airport authority must be planning to land major airlines as well as perhaps CY also!


User currently offlineBasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 110, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9611 times:

Quoting TK105 (Reply 109):
Airport authority must be planning to land major airlines as well as perhaps CY also!

Not going to happen, Northern Cyprus is and will not be recognised by other countries except Turkey, therefore you will only see Turkish operators in Ercan.



'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 111, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9573 times:

Quoting TK105 (Reply 109):
Airport authority must be planning to land major airlines as well as perhaps CY also!

A long way away from that if ever. The target of 20M where did you get that figure and by what year are they saying they will get that figure? I read it would be around 5-6M in 3-4 years.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3024 posts, RR: 8
Reply 112, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9554 times:
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Political statement its true however time is now right to recommence talks with view to federation.

Like it or not Athens have dumped squarely on Nicosia in this financial crisis !


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26011 posts, RR: 50
Reply 113, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9557 times:

Yes ECN is getting another terminal and other facilities like new parking structure. New terminal will have - 8 jetways and capacity for 5mil annual enplanements and will be run by a private consortium.
Also a second runway was approved last year for the airport as well.

So yes the availability of ECN airport and easy access (there is a direct airport shuttle bus from downtown Nicosia for EUR3) can have effect on airport traffic demand on the Southern side as well.

Also there is talk of developing Geçitkale Air Base for civilian use. It has been used already in the past as a reliever when ECN was closed for runway resurfacing or weather.
There is even talk of redeveloping an old closed airstrip on the north coast near Kyrenia which would provide immediate access to the big hotel, casino and tourism area.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 110):
Not going to happen, Northern Cyprus is and will not be recognised by other countries except Turkey, therefore you will only see Turkish operators in Ercan.

Foreign operators can (and have) served Ercan. Simply via a stop in Turkey on the inbound, or some nations like Pakistan and Qatar ignore that and run direct on charters.

Also don't forget there is GA traffic, with biz jets coming and going as they please.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 114, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9526 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 113):
8 jetways and capacity for 5mil annual

Thats a bit more like it .

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 113):
Simply via a stop in Turkey on the inbound, or some nations like Pakistan and Qatar ignore that and run direct on charters.

Yes I would think that more Gulf flights would be interested in future either on a schedule or charter basis.
The requirement to land in Turkey has held back ECN and UK charter companies were not able to fly into ECN. Years ago KTHY tried to launch flights from DUB but a few major tour operators who had interests in the South caused a major protest and flights were later refused by the Irish authorities. The flights ended up going from BFS Via AYT but were pulled in the end due to lack of demand. I actually flew on it.

I think if they could get the flight ban issue resolved and the over fly ban for Cyrpriot carriers over Turkey lifted then it would help everyone.


User currently offlineBasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 115, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9514 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 113):
Foreign operators can (and have) served Ercan. Simply via a stop in Turkey on the inbound,

Which costs a lot of extra time and money, hence why almost all operators prefer LCA or PFO.  



'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1095 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9525 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 113):
Also there is talk of developing Geçitkale Air Base for civilian use. It has been used already in the past as a reliever when ECN was closed for runway resurfacing or weather.

Now Cyprus has three civilian airports (LCA, PFO on the Greek side and ECN on the Turkish) and there are talks about a 4th one?? For an island of its size?

Hopefully common sense settle one day and everything is consolidated in one or two airports.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 117, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9487 times:
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Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 116):

Common sense and market demands are fuelling these developments. Naturally they are there to serve the growing tourist market.
Though I think that a unified Cyprus will need only three airports, Paphos, Larnaca and Nicosia.


User currently offlineTK105 From Turkey, joined Mar 2013, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9498 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 111):
The target of 20M where did you get that figure and by what year are they saying they will get that figure?

I remember reading it somewhere. Though not exactly the same content, here is what I found with a short google search:

http://kokpit.aero/ercan-havalimani-yatirim (Turkish only)

Looks like the target is 10 years.

Is this an over realistic target? 10 years ago I would not believe TK ordering 200 NB planes and H9 ordering another 100 in my wildest dreams. If AYT has that tourist capacity, why not Cyprus?

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 110):
Not going to happen, Northern Cyprus is and will not be recognised by other countries except Turkey, therefore you will only see Turkish operators in Ercan.

Tourist -> Business -> Money -> Solution

One thing is for sure: This can not continue like this forever.  


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 119, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9482 times:
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Quoting TK105 (Reply 118):

No one said it will. The south is willing to find a solution but not at all cost. Personally I can't wait for the two sides to find a solution as I am bored of travelling to Larnaca every time I need to travel.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26011 posts, RR: 50
Reply 120, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9469 times:

The point is LCA and PFO hardly have a monopoly on activity on the Southern side. There is traffic bleed across to ECN.
I recall last summer some UK travel magazine having a specific story about accessing broader Cyprus via the Turkish side due to the large selection of flights, and good prices.

This all ends up being yet another challenge CY and the airports on the South must contend with.

For example TK does great business with beyond connections from ECN - top connection markets in 2012 were London, Moscow, Manchester, Frankfurt, Birmingham, Munich, and Kiev - some of these folks certainly were coming or going to the South ultimately.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3024 posts, RR: 8
Reply 121, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9470 times:
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Quoting JU068 (Reply 119):
No one said it will. The south is willing to find a solution but not at all cost. Personally I can't wait for the two sides to find a solution as I am bored of travelling to Larnaca every time I need to travel.

The South are not

The UN agreement had political acceptance in principle and voted for by the Northern !

For scuppering that agreement the EU awarded ROC with membership and look where the isle is now as a result.
The EU should have suspended membership then and there.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 122, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9454 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 116):
Hopefully common sense settle one day and everything is consolidated in one or two airports.

Well the practical idea would be to redevelop the old NIC airport and have a style like BSL with exits for the South and the North straddling the border. Wont happen in my lifetime though I think.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 123, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9406 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 120):

I think there are going to be problems from now on because the European Union is actually conducting an investigation since a lot of people flew into the south via the north and whose trip was paid for by the House of Europe in Nicosia. It seems that some heads will roll. Brussels is not too happy about people flying into northern Nicosia to reach the south. Will be interesting to see what happens.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 121):

There was a reason why so many people voted against it in the south, you should research into it.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3024 posts, RR: 8
Reply 124, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9362 times:
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Quoting JU068 (Reply 123):
There was a reason why so many people voted against it in the south, you should research into it.

Yes I know and in another place I would be happy to discuss it !


User currently offlineTK105 From Turkey, joined Mar 2013, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9349 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 123):

I'm curious how this gonna work. Can you provide us more info about this investigation?


User currently onlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1678 posts, RR: 2
Reply 126, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9344 times:

Ha yes, I forget yes people indeed access Southern Cyprus via Turkish side. Unless Cyprus want to close borders, I dont think they can stop their citizens or tourist from choosing options via Turkish side airport. Actually market is very lucky they already have many options, even if CY end service.

I have friend that work for aircraft company based on Toulouse and I remember him telling me he used TK to visit Cyprus on business. Said there was easy bus only 10-minutes to Nicosia border. I also remember Belgian tour company offer packages to Cyprus via Turkish charter companies. So they must arrange for bus to take people across border. Obviously there is cost benefit to do this for tour company.

I guess if CY continue to shrink, there will be growing opportunity for others to backfill demand, including Turkish companies.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26011 posts, RR: 50
Reply 127, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9362 times:

So with a fleet of 6 aircraft the CY route map clearly shrinks.

From what I can tell in GDS this is the weekly frequencies they intend to operate this summer.

LCA
AMS - 4x
ATH - 21x
BEY - 7x
CAI - 2x
DOH - 2x
FRA - 4x (1x via MUC)
HER - 3x
LHR - 14x
SVO - 6x
MUC - 2x
CDG - 7x
FCO - 4x
SOF - 2x
LED - 4x
TLV - 9x
SKG - 6x
VIE - 2x
ZRH - 4x

PFO
SVO - 1x

ATH
SKG - 14x
HER - 14x
RHO - 14x

SKG
HER - 7x
RHO - 4x

HER
RHO - 3x

If the domestic Greece flying gets the axe that would likely spell bad news for the A3/OA merger as well.

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 128, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9290 times:
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Quoting TK105 (Reply 125):

Sure, the European Union found out that the Commission's office in Cyprus was bringing people to the south via the north. So they got angry and said that it is against the law and that they had to use 'legitimate' airports, that is Larnaca or/and Paphos especially since the money used came from EU funds.
Someone will have to explain this, especially since Cyprus Airways had introduced special flights to Brussels during the Cypriot presidency. The officials are angry as this had been going on for quite a while. It seems that someone will pay for this, and he will pay big time.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 129, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9268 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 127):

Another opinion I read was that if they dont allow the merger then both carriers risk collapse and CYs demise could add to that arguement also. With a decision due anytime over the next few weeks its certainly an interesting time in the region.


User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1343 posts, RR: 13
Reply 130, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9207 times:

The Israeli media already warns passengers not to buy Cyprus Airways tickets as the airline is about to collapse:

http://www.mako.co.il/news-money/eco...1750a2610f26110&pId=2089299190



"In Israel, on order to be a realist, one's must believe in miracles" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9111 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 121):
The South are not

The UN agreement had political acceptance in principle and voted for by the Northern !

For scuppering that agreement the EU awarded ROC with membership and look where the isle is now as a result.
The EU should have suspended membership then and there.

Well, since the people of Cyprus have voted, everyone has to respect their decision.
Its quite difficult to persuade me that people who have lost their homes, properties and loved ones do not want a solution. The increasing number of people travelling "south-north" shows that Cypriots (GC and TC) want a solution provided that it is one that satisfies both sides.

But lets stick to the subject.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 102):
Ju068 read early that you considered CY should tender for Charter work - They tried that through Eurocypria for many years and even that made little if any money !

Eurocypria had a very low cost basis and could be very successful if they didn't expand too rapidly. They collapsed because they increased their fleet from 4 to 6 in a year and then had problems utilizing it during the winter months.

I remember at that time that the various newspapers reported that, during winter, part of the Eurocypria fleet was chartered to other companies at a price that was below the cost of the original lease.

[Edited 2013-04-09 23:50:48]


CY@Uk
User currently offlineTK105 From Turkey, joined Mar 2013, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9100 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 128):
Sure, the European Union found out that the Commission's office in Cyprus was bringing people to the south via the north. So they got angry and said that it is against the law and that they had to use 'legitimate' airports, that is Larnaca or/and Paphos especially since the money used came from EU funds.

Thanks.

This is actually a bitter joke on its own proving how desperate and senseless are the policies of EU in all aspects of Cyprus Question.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 114):
I think if they could get the flight ban issue resolved and the over fly ban for Cyrpriot carriers over Turkey lifted then it would help everyone.

I wonder why CY does not register its planes somewhere else (such as Greece, Panama, etc) and avoid the fly ban over Turkey?


User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9080 times:

Quoting TK105 (Reply 132):
I wonder why CY does not register its planes somewhere else (such as Greece, Panama, etc) and avoid the fly ban over Turkey?

It is an interesting point. If I am not mistaken, Louis Cruises have registered their ships elsewhere in order to be able to travel to Turkish ports.

[Edited 2013-04-10 00:20:26]


CY@Uk
User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8894 times:

I have just heard on the news that the Government have chosen the "6+1 scenario" which shrinks CY down to 6x A320s (+1 older A320 for backup) and to 500-550 Staff from current 1030.

The plan is to carry out the above changes asap whilst at the same time continue discussions with possible Investors.

It has also been reported on the news that a team from MEA will be in Cyprus on or about the 16th April 2013 to discuss a possible take over.

( do not have links yet as these news come from TV news bulletins)



CY@Uk
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 135, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8876 times:
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Quoting CYatUK (Reply 134):

I guess we will see a revised summer schedule being released soon. Will be interesting to see which routes survive.

Does anyone know the registration of the older A320 that is kept for backup?


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3024 posts, RR: 8
Reply 136, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8878 times:
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5B-DBB C/N 256 !

Classical muddling through by politicians !

Kicking the problem down the road again - In under 12 months we will be discussing the same story again !


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 137, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8711 times:

News report here :

Near-bankrupt Cyprus airways to keep flying – for now

Near-bankrupt national carrier Cyprus Airways will be kept operational for now but it must undergo drastic restructuring to ensure its immediate future, the government said on Wednesday.

Government spokesman Christos Stylianides said the state-owned airline would be kept going through the summer so as not to leave tens of thousands of tourists who have pre-booked holidays on the Mediterranean island in the lurch.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w...rticles_wsite2_1_10/04/2013_492986


User currently onlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1678 posts, RR: 2
Reply 138, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8577 times:

I somewhat wonder what point of China or Lebanon investors could be. With EU ownership limit, such investors cannot own majority of CY and cannot full direct company.

For example yes CY-ME joint venture might make sense, but airlines would still have to duplicate much overhead and could never merge properly into a single more efficient venture.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 139, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8475 times:
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Since the European Commission could not launch an investigation by itself, it really makes me wonder who reported them? I doubt it was Aegean so who could it be...

User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 140, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8433 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 138):
I somewhat wonder what point of China or Lebanon investors could be. With EU ownership limit, such investors cannot own majority of CY and cannot full direct company.

For example yes CY-ME joint venture might make sense, but airlines would still have to duplicate much overhead and could never merge properly into a single more efficient venture.

Could it be related to the fact that CY is an EU airline and hence there are no restrictions on what routes they fly inside the EU?

I mean, given that the trip from BEY to LCA is less than 1 hour, could there be a cooperation/JV where:

- There are multiple daily flights from LCA-BEY / BEY-LCA (say using smaller jets)
- LCA acts as a mini-hub for flights to EU destinations
- BEY acts as a larger hub for flights to African and all other destinations whilst keeping flights to key EU cities

Even with a 49% in CY, MEA will have great power given that the other shareholders (Government and Private Investors) will have much smaller stakes.



CY@Uk
User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 141, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8369 times:
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Quoting CYatUK (Reply 140):
I mean, given that the trip from BEY to LCA is less than 1 hour, could there be a cooperation/JV where:

- There are multiple daily flights from LCA-BEY / BEY-LCA (say using smaller jets)
- LCA acts as a mini-hub for flights to EU destinations

Also, if im correct, MEA can not fly to the US right? Maybe the can launch BEY-LCA-JFK?

On another note, it looks like LHR will not be axed for now  


User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1343 posts, RR: 13
Reply 142, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8363 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 138):
I somewhat wonder what point of China or Lebanon investors could be. With EU ownership limit, such investors cannot own majority of CY and cannot full direct company.

What about TLV? CY is operating 8 flights a week with increasing tourism from Israel to Cyprus in the past few years, can Lebanese share holders live with the line to Israel?



"In Israel, on order to be a realist, one's must believe in miracles" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 143, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8352 times:
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Quoting EL-AL (Reply 142):
What about TLV? CY is operating 8 flights a week with increasing tourism from Israel to Cyprus in the past few years, can Lebanese share holders live with the line to Israel?

Probably the government will try and prevent this from happening. And also, given that the route is so profitable, apparently, i think they'll live with it  


User currently offlineTK105 From Turkey, joined Mar 2013, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 144, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8347 times:

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 140):
I mean, given that the trip from BEY to LCA is less than 1 hour, could there be a cooperation/JV where:

- There are multiple daily flights from LCA-BEY / BEY-LCA (say using smaller jets)
- LCA acts as a mini-hub for flights to EU destinations
- BEY acts as a larger hub for flights to African and all other destinations whilst keeping flights to key EU cities

Considering that main traffic to Cyprus is from mainland Europe, this will not be a practical routing as it will add at least 2 hours more flight time which will also increase the cost. Moreover BEY is not in the EU that will cause more practical issues.

I think the way out for CY is no more different than similar national airlines suffering from their small domestic markets such as A3, OU, etc. CY has to cooperate with a major network carrier and feed to this airline while only focusing on the strong markets such as ATH, SKG, LHR, CDG, AMS, BEY, SVO, TLV in parallel. Needless to say, they have to cut their unnecessary operations inside Greece.

The possibilities are MUC/LH, IST/TK and FCO/AZ. Though IST/TK is the most logical option, we all know that it is not possible for the near future.

Then only logical option remains as LH for CY to cooperate.


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 145, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8338 times:
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Quoting TK105 (Reply 144):
The possibilities are MUC/LH, IST/TK and FCO/AZ. Though IST/TK is the most logical option, we all know that it is not possible for the near future.

True, however with the strong SkyTeam links i'd say AZ is most likely. Or CDG or AMS  


User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 146, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8338 times:

Quoting VCy (Reply 141):
Also, if im correct, MEA can not fly to the US right? Maybe the can launch BEY-LCA-JFK?

I don't know about this, but I honestly think that a mini-hub/base in an EU country located so close to BEY will be beneficial for MEA.

The suggested/expected downsizing of CY will mean that any Investor will take a small company that will be easier to manage and restructure in order to convert it to one that makes profit and fits into the Investor's business model.



CY@Uk
User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 147, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8304 times:
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Quoting CYatUK (Reply 146):
I don't know about this, but I honestly think that a mini-hub/base in an EU country located so close to BEY will be beneficial for MEA.

Agreed! I know that MEA wanted to launch Moscow & Madrid, and also served Copenhagen, Dusseldorf, Nice & Rhodes seasonally, something that CY will help with.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 148, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8306 times:

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 146):
I don't know about this, but I honestly think that a mini-hub/base in an EU country located so close to BEY will be beneficial for MEA.

There are many advantages for MEA if they did decide to invest. Also as we have seen in previous years during conflict they have often evacuated their fleet their when coming under attack. If they could make money on certain routes and maybe even do a deal with the US where flights would touch down in LCA for a full security check of passengers and then continue on it may make them able to satisfy US authorities.


User currently offlineTK105 From Turkey, joined Mar 2013, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 149, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8277 times:

Quoting VCy (Reply 141):
Also, if im correct, MEA can not fly to the US right? Maybe the can launch BEY-LCA-JFK?

It is a nice fantasy.  Wow!

However realities of CY is much different and a realistic profitable business plan is needed.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 150, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8272 times:

Quoting TK105 (Reply 149):
It is a nice fantasy. Wow!

Not with CY metal but with MEA metal maybe.


User currently offlinepanais From Cyprus, joined May 2008, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 151, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8266 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 138):
I somewhat wonder what point of China or Lebanon investors could be. With EU ownership limit, such investors cannot own majority of CY and cannot full direct company.

Any Cypriot junior accountant can create a funding vehicle that is 100% EU with 100% non EU citizen or company ownership. And this is totally legal and practised in the best of places in the EU.

Quoting TK105 (Reply 144):

The discussion about air travel in Cyprus should not be about what CY is currently doing. The discussion should be about any airline operating in Cyprus. CY is finished. If an investor feels that Cyprus is a good base for an airline, whether they start from zero or buy their way into by buying CY, then CY they buy.


User currently offlineTK105 From Turkey, joined Mar 2013, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 152, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8308 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 150):
Not with CY metal but with MEA metal maybe.

Let's assume that you have found enough number of passengers for this flight to become profitable year around! They you need to unload the flight coming from BEY, do the security checks as required by US customs and board them back again?

 


User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 153, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8272 times:

Quoting TK105 (Reply 152):
Let's assume that you have found enough number of passengers for this flight to become profitable year around! They you need to unload the flight coming from BEY, do the security checks as required by US customs and board them back again?

I think that, as far as the number of passengers is concerned, Lebanon has a population of around 4.5m which becomes 5.4m if you add Cyprus population to it, hence increasing the chances of viability of such flights.

As far as flights to the US are concerned, I would guess that the flight will need to depart from Cyprus so all checks would need to be carried out from scratch but again, this means that a feeder flight model (as I described in my previous thread) could be a good alternative.

[Edited 2013-04-11 02:41:06]


CY@Uk
User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 154, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8267 times:

Sorry, but in my opinion, it's obivious that there won't be an investor. The sole purpose of this "6+1" plan has already been posted:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 137):

Government spokesman Christos Stylianides said the state-owned airline would be kept going through the summer so as not to leave tens of thousands of tourists who have pre-booked holidays on the Mediterranean island in the lurch.

A purely life sustaining measure, and indeed:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 136):
Classical muddling through by politicians !
Kicking the problem down the road again - In under 12 months we will be discussing the same story again !

Please put down your Cyprus-colored glasses. Things like

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 146):

The suggested/expected downsizing of CY will mean that any Investor will take a small company that will be easier to manage and restructure in order to convert it to one that makes profit and fits into the Investor's business model.

just won't happen. Neither the Chinese nor ME wanted to invest into CY now, in half a year nothing will have changed. Cyprus Airways was founded on 24 September 1947. We might just see the airline turn 66, but I doubt that it will be around in 2014.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 155, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8265 times:

Quoting TK105 (Reply 152):
Let's assume that you have found enough number of passengers for this flight to become profitable year around! They you need to unload the flight coming from BEY, do the security checks as required by US customs and board them back again?

They already do it in may cases. Take the premium BA flight LCY-JFK. Now this is for immigration customs but it lands and all passengers get of and re board. PIA are to do it at SNN ( If thats still going ahead ) .

If it means having a direct flight with just one stop after a quick hop to LCA then Im sure people would do it. If they were going to have to fly to CDG FRA IST anyway whats the difference. If anything its quicker as its one aircraft one flight.


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 156, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8262 times:
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According to the news this plan, the 6+1 has been suggested since November and it will start taking place shortly this month.

User currently offlineTK105 From Turkey, joined Mar 2013, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 157, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8236 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 155):
If it means having a direct flight with just one stop after a quick hop to LCA then Im sure people would do it. If they were going to have to fly to CDG FRA IST anyway whats the difference. If anything its quicker as its one aircraft one flight.

Actually you answer yourself. They do it in LHR CDG FRA IST, right, but the number of local passengers boarding at those airports is hundreds even thousands a day. How many additional passengers do you expect in LCA? 10, perhaps 20.. This will never work.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 158, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8193 times:

Quoting TK105 (Reply 157):
Actually you answer yourself. They do it in LHR CDG FRA IST, right, but the number of local passengers boarding at those airports is hundreds even thousands a day. How many additional passengers do you expect in LCA? 10, perhaps 20.. This will never work.

How do you know it wont work ? Do you have the figures for Lebanon-USA its a very large amount. If MEA was flying then you would get alot who would take MEA because its MEA flying. Being Skyteam it also means they can use their FF for miles and status etc... If people are prepared to transit for a few hours in a European or Middle Eastern airport then im sure they would prefer a one stop flight where they touch down for a short period for clearence then continue on. As I stated before other airlines do it.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26011 posts, RR: 50
Reply 159, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8166 times:

Forget the idea of MEA to the US via LCA.

MEA has authority on paper to operate via Paris even, but as bared to serve the US for other reasons. So LCA would not change things.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 160, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8147 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 154):
just won't happen. Neither the Chinese nor ME wanted to invest into CY now, in half a year nothing will have changed. Cyprus Airways was founded on 24 September 1947. We might just see the airline turn 66, but I doubt that it will be around in 2014.

To be honest, I am not optimistic either however the smaller size in combination with some valuable slots (LHR) could make a deal possible.

[Edited 2013-04-11 04:29:10]


CY@Uk
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27234 posts, RR: 60
Reply 161, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8144 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 159):
but as bared to serve the US for other reasons.

So what reasons other than security were they barred for?


User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 162, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8121 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 154):
ust won't happen. Neither the Chinese nor ME wanted to invest into CY now, in half a year nothing will have changed. Cyprus Airways was founded on 24 September 1947. We might just see the airline turn 66, but I doubt that it will be around in 2014.

Just to add to my previous post, it appears that certain CY Unions have already rejected the plan increasing further my pessimism.



CY@Uk
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2741 posts, RR: 6
Reply 163, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8117 times:
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Quoting CYatUK (Reply 162):

Hahahaha this only goes to prove that Cyprus Airways unions are made up of morons who desperately need a reality check. It is only because of them that I would be happy if Cyprus Airways was to shut down.


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 164, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8110 times:
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Not sure how unions work, but isnt it wiser for them to accept having some people sacked for the sake of everyone else?

Plus i've heard that one of their main problems is the downsizing of the fleet.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9657 posts, RR: 31
Reply 165, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8102 times:

Quoting VCy (Reply 164):
unions work

unions and work is an oxymo