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KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base  
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 811 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 35916 times:

Today KLM attempted to fly one of its retired MD11 aircraft PH-KCG to VCV for scrapping.

Regretfully the aircraft suffered technical issues while crossing the Atlantic and it looks as if the pilots decided twice to return to AMS. The first time was about halfway between Iceland and Greenland (see FR24) and the second and final time while crossing the West Coast of Greenland.

The aircraft returned to AMS after an 8 Hour flight!!

Apparently PH-KCG didn't like the idea of going to the scrappers!

http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/kl7431

70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 35787 times:

Quoting factsonly (Thread starter):
Apparently PH-KCG didn't like the idea of going to the scrappers!

Now that's a plane that's determined to stay back home! And so spotters can keep catching it in action.


User currently offlineBasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 35755 times:

Looks like they will try again shortly, ETD 19.06 local time as KL7431


'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7448 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 34909 times:

Quoting factsonly (Thread starter):
Today KLM attempted to fly one of its retired MD11 aircraft PH-KCG to VCV for scrapping

Kinda surprising they were not converted to freighters. Is the pax-freight MD11 market dead ? Sad to see another heavy 3 holer scrapped.



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1617 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 34832 times:

Quoting cschleic (Reply 1):
Now that's a plane that's determined to stay back home!

That's because it's a diva.  
Quoting United_fan (Reply 3):
Kinda surprising they were not converted to freighters. Is the pax-freight MD11 market dead ?

The market doesn't seem to be dead, but from what I recollect, KL MD-11s are retired before a major overhaul. Though, Martinair has just retired to SFB one of its MD-11CF/(F)



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User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10679 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 34827 times:

Nice try PH-KCG, but resistance is futile!

http://oi47.tinypic.com/11ay71s.jpg



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2755 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 34713 times:
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Something tells me one of our resident MD-11 lovers hit something with a wrench  . Talk about an aircraft that doesn't want to go to the scrapper. Anybody know exactly what went wrong?
Pat



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineairtran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3702 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 34687 times:
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Quoting United_fan (Reply 3):
Kinda surprising they were not converted to freighters. Is the pax-freight MD11 market dead ? Sad to see another heavy 3 holer scrapped.

The MD-11's are due a FANS upgrade in the next couple years. You are going to see even more of them heading to the desert.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2898 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 34390 times:

Quoting United_fan (Reply 3):
Kinda surprising they were not converted to freighters. Is the pax-freight MD11 market dead ? Sad to see another heavy 3 holer scrapped.

I'd wager that these airframes are pretty high time, not many hours left on them to make the conversion economically feasable. If KLM puts hours on their longhaul aircraft kind of like LH does, they'd be in the 90-105,000 hour range already.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9490 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 34239 times:

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 8):
Quoting United_fan (Reply 3):
Kinda surprising they were not converted to freighters. Is the pax-freight MD11 market dead ? Sad to see another heavy 3 holer scrapped.

I'd wager that these airframes are pretty high time, not many hours left on them to make the conversion economically feasable. If KLM puts hours on their longhaul aircraft kind of like LH does, they'd be in the 90-105,000 hour range already.

20 years of commercial service is going to put more hours on this MD-11 than any of the others in FedEx of the other major freight carriers fleet. I doubt it is up to 100,000 since KLM's oldest MD-11 is from 1994, but still it will have many more hours than what the freight carriers would want.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5119 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 34156 times:

Why didn't they just continue? They must have been over the halfway point by the time they turned around. Could it be something simple like forgetting the customs papers or their passports?  


Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1844 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 33917 times:
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Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
Anybody know exactly what went wrong?

Apparently some form of oil leakage/problems with one of the engines. I do wonder why they didn't divert to an airport in Canada or the US! West-Coast Greenland - AMS is considerably longer then Greenland - YYZ for example. And with no pax to worry about, with an aircraft that's on her final fight..

Martijn



Fly DC-Jets!
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7036 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 33884 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 11):

Apparently some form of oil leakage/problems with one of the engines. I do wonder why they didn't divert to an airport in Canada or the US! West-Coast Greenland - AMS is considerably longer then Greenland - YYZ for example. And with no pax to worry about, with an aircraft that's on her final fight..

Martijn

The flight back to Holland probably cost more in fuel than the scrap company is giving them! LOL


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12884 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 33621 times:
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Quoting United_fan (Reply 3):
Is the pax-freight MD11 market dead ?

Most recent pricing I could find:
Fall 2012 Aircraft Values And Lease Pricing (by LAXintl Nov 5 2012 in Civil Aviation)

MD-11 - $8.0 – 13.0M , $150-210,000

However, the resale value of the older types has been dropping hard since then.

Aircraft resale values are being hit:
http://afm.aero/magazine/trading-leg...e-rates-where%E2%80%99s-the-bounce


The freight market is weak. Why would anyone invest now in a pax to freight conversion?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12333 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 32208 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
The freight market is weak. Why would anyone invest now in a pax to freight conversion?

Seems Boeing has quite a few returned 744-BCFs to chose from, if the customer is so inclined...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1617 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 31510 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
Why would anyone invest now in a pax to freight conversion?

Well I don't know, but it didn't stop a company to convert at least one former WO MD-11 pax into a cargo which should be delivered to AV Cargo.

[Edited 2013-04-15 13:25:24]


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User currently offlineTheCheese From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 30660 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 12):

The flight back to Holland probably cost more in fuel than the scrap company is giving them! LOL

KLM maintenance at AMS is vastly less expensive than remote maintenance at any other base. Bring the old bird back to Schipol, break out the speed tape and bailing wire and try again. Stopping en route for maintenance means a bill from a non-KLM maintenance crew and money spent on an airframe that is going to the scrapper.


User currently offlinenclmedic From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 28724 times:

It'll be sad to see these birds leave the KL fleet - remarkably well kept, and many passengers enjoyed flying them more than the A330's.

User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1064 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 26722 times:
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Why could KLM have simply continued the flight as a two engine ferry flight? There were no passengers. Only the flight crew. It has been done many times in the past to do a two engine ferry flight when one engine is not serviceable on a three engine aircraft. That is why Northwest Airlines would not operate any aircraft smaller than a three holler, until the merger with Republic Airlines, which had the DC-9. They simply ferried the aircraft to a maintenance base that had a spare engine.   

User currently offlineTheCheese From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 25457 times:
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Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 18):
Why could KLM have simply continued the flight as a two engine ferry flight?

That's an easy one; those three engines are timed out. They may have ferry exemptions, and even the flight crew is leery of depending on two marginal power plants over the North Atlantic.


User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4363 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 25358 times:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 18):
That is why Northwest Airlines would not operate any aircraft smaller than a three holler,

Is that like when you yell three times ?


Humor intended..



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17051 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 25150 times:

One last visit at the home base...


When will KLM retire the last MD11?



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently onlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1783 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 21472 times:

I have flown twice on KCG. On both occasions she returned to Amsterdam due to engine problems.

Good old Maria Callas and her tricks. God bless her!



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlinesk909 From Denmark, joined Nov 2005, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 19684 times:

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 22):
When will KLM retire the last MD11?

I think it is scheduled to phased out by 2014.



Life's for Living!
User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 509 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 19161 times:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 18):
Why could KLM have simply continued the flight as a two engine ferry flight? There were no passengers. Only the flight crew. It has been done many times in the past to do a two engine ferry flight when one engine is not serviceable on a three engine aircraft

You are referring to two different things. Continuing a flight after an inflight shutdown is subject to different rules than a two-engine ferry. If you shutdown an engine in flight, your maximum altitude goes down and your fuelflow goes up. There may not have been enough fuel on board to make it to VCV with one engine inop at such an early point in the flight.


25 Post contains images xdlx : I have to agree..... specially with 2nd RTB..... If same problem ! Shut her down and divert to YYZ or KBGR..... DL can loan an engine to its AF/KL par
26 Post contains images PHX787 : This is only a sign--keep the MD11 flying!!!! (at least until I can fly it )
27 Post contains links and images HBIHLtoEZE : I happened to witness Maria Callas' designated final take off from its (former) home base yesterday - I was wondering if the flight was the ferry flig
28 na : Thats maybe the last one. In the past five years there have been very few MD-11 conversions. Also a World MD-11 mainly doing charters certainly has m
29 brilondon : Why if it is going to the scrap yard would they fly it all the way back to AMS instead of continuing say to YHZ or even Gander in Newfoundland or on t
30 SpaceshipDC10 : Probably for the following reason:
31 na : Maybe company policy to repair what can be repaired by themselves. Maybe a major issue was suspected which could have been expensive if someone else
32 lightsaber : When was the contract signed? Freight has fallen off in the last 4 months. That is the fact. There might be an exception or two, but for the most par
33 SpaceshipDC10 : Don't know that, but airlinerlist reports it was ferried MIA-ANC-QPG in Jan '12 for conversion, and then in June QPG-HNL-VCV.
34 Post contains images B747forever : Not much time left for the MD11 At least I will be able to enjoy it at LAX this summer.
35 ORDPARK : I LOVE an airplane with an Attitude!!!...."Don't go quietly into that good night" to paraphrase...someone....?!?
36 Spacepope : If it indeed was the "Maria Callas", then I would expect nothing less than a diva attitude from that machine!
37 Post contains links factsonly : This was the only true 'Prima Donna' the world ever knew............ her name was indeed: Maria Callas! - McDonnell Douglas MD-11 - reg: PH-KCG - c/n
38 HBIHLtoEZE : ...yes, aren't there some folk beliefs in with evil spirits are kept away by bodies of water (so that they won't get near the comfort zone)? ...indee
39 L1011 : Does this mean I might get to fly on one next year? Last month I flew from RIC to SFO to fly on one from there to AMS and back. They seemed like new
40 planespotting : Because DL has a spare MD-11 engine lying around?
41 SpaceshipDC10 : Good question. If it were the case, it wouldn't work for KL since they both had or have completely different engine types.
42 Viscount724 : From Transport Canada daily occurrence reports: At position 62N 047W at 1033Z, a KLM McDonnell Douglas MD-11 (PHKCG / KLM7431) from EHAM to KVCV reque
43 lightsaber : Thank you. That implies the conversion contract was signed 16 or so months ago when it looked like cargo would rebound. It hasn't... which will depre
44 United_fan : I remember when DL sold their MD11's to UPS,they flew them YMX - ROW them removed the engines and trucked them back to Montreal for the next flight.
45 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : The engines may of been "out of time" and with one engine shut down, it may not have been possible to fly non stop to VCV. But the aircraft , may hav
46 Post contains links Viscount724 : Yes, full US customs facilities. http://www.logisticsairport.com/page.aspx?pgid=3 http://www.logisticsairport.com/page.aspx?pgid=8
47 ltbewr : I wonder if the quirky handling of MD-11's also hurts their resale and freighter conversion value? Perhaps the problems with this a/c in going to the
48 SpaceshipDC10 : Well, skyliner news reports another attempt to ferry that bird to VCV is planned for tomorrow.
49 Post contains images cv990coronado : She is putting up a good fight before she becomes 100000 Coke cans
50 DALCE : This morning she was still at AMS/EHAM outside KL's MX facilities at Schiphol East
51 cschleic : Dylan Thomas....the poem begins.... Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying
52 Darksnowynight : Indeed. But she died young too. Truly sad in both cases! Right. I don't know why folks think alliances have anything to do with MX operations anyway.
53 brilondon : If they were concerned about safety, why would they fly all the way back to AMS?
54 Post contains links factsonly : And so..............Maria Callas is off again, as KL7431 AMS -> VCV on Thursday 18 April 2013. She left AMS this morning and is on her way to VCV f
55 SpaceshipDC10 : It's now overflying Greenland and should arrive in about seven and half hours.
56 factsonly : Well....PH-KCG - Maria Callas is currently at 38.000ft entering USA airspace over Montana, heading for VCV. About 2h10min to go to VCV.
57 factsonly : PH-KCG has commenced her decent to Victorville, passing through 20.000ft and still 12 minutes to go. ETA VCV 16:59 UTC
58 CrimsonNL : She just touched down, this is it for KCG.. At least she didn't go out without a fight! Martijn
59 Revelation : A diva to the end!
60 SpaceshipDC10 : Well, it seems another MD-11 won't bit the dust just yet. MD-11CF 48629 586 N956AR Sky Lease Aero regd 23apr13 prior delivery ex SFB ex PH-MCT
61 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : It got a reprieve because it already is a freighter. No conversion costs needed.
62 SpaceshipDC10 : Indeed, however there are two former WO MD-11F that were bought by FedEx last year as a source for spare parts, and I also know of a former CargoItal
63 bennett123 : I thought that the aircraft were bought by Fedex as additional capacity, (the DC10/MD10 are gradually disappearing). I also thought that the Cargoital
64 Post contains links bennett123 : SpaceshipDC10 Following my previous post, I have checked the FAA website. http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=216AW Th
65 SpaceshipDC10 : It's a former AZ MD-11C with the cargo door at the rear. I wonder if it makes them less attractive?
66 bennett123 : IMO, this would probably be a deal killer for FedEx or UPS, (who would not want a couple of oddballs)but might be less so for a small operator, (like
67 Post contains images Viscount724 : I connected at AMS this morning from GVA to BRU. While taxiing to the gate at AMS around 0900 I noticed a KL MD-11 being towed from a gate, probably e
68 DTWPurserBoy : I was very surprised to see KL MD-11's being parted out. They must have been high cycle airframes. No one else has any problem selling them as freight
69 SpaceshipDC10 : The following... ...and the need for these airframes to get some major maintenance seem to explain why the end up in spare parts.
70 ltbewr : Probably as parts they are of more value than for freighter conversions. The number crunchers have it all figured out down to the last dollar. Yes, it
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