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New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 126  
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12172 posts, RR: 17
Posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 14706 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Welcome to the 126th edition of the New Zealand Aviation Thread.

Link to the previous thread New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 125 (by NZ1 Mar 19 2013 in Civil Aviation)

216 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 14652 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

There was some confusion about the city pairs in the code share with Turkish Airlines, so here is the full list, from the filing:

Operated by Turkish Airlines (TK/NZ*)

Istanbul - Los Angeles
Istanbul - London (LHR)
Istanbul - Ankara
Istanbul - Hong Kong

Operated by Air New Zealand (NZ/TK*)

Los Angeles - London (LHR)
Los Angeles - Auckland
Auckland - Brisbane
Auckland - Hong Kong
Auckland - Sydney
Auckland - Melbourne
Auckland - Wellington
Auckland - Christchurch
Auckland - Queenstown
Wellington - Sydney
Wellington - Melbourne
Christchurch - Brisbane
Christchurch - Sydney
Christchurch - Melbourne

At the risk of repeating myself, this pleases me on many levels, not all of them directly aviation related. I think it is great that it will be in place in good time for 1915, the centenary of Gallipolli.

http://www.onthegotours.com/Anzac-Da...y-Gallipoli-2015-100th-Anniversary

Old enemies become new friends.

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-18 19:41:26]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 14545 times:

I don't share the enthusiasm shown for two issues late in the last thread.

Firstly, while I am fiercely proud of the decision to legalise gay marriage, I don't think that it will really affect Air New Zealand or New Zealand aviation at all. It's marvellous, but I can't see an impact, sorry.

Secondly, I don't see the relevance of the Turkish Airlines codeshare. TK is an excellent carrier, but who is this codeshare supposed to serve?

Which TK passengers could conceivably find themselves on NZ metal who wouldn't otherwise, or indeed vice versa?

In Mariner's example, surely anyone going to Gallipoli would fly 1-stop from New Zealand on Emirates rather than flying Air NZ to London and then backtracking on Turkish Airlines to London? I suppose that there could be a transfer at Hong Kong, but all the same, it's not exactly a big market.

I'm glad to see that under Luxon there appears to be some thought about where the airline is going. But many of the missed opportunities are much closer to home.

Why aren't people incensed that Air NZ has restricted AKL-HNL to twice weekly (and occasionally 3 x weekly) when now Hawaiian has added three weekly frequencies and we can all see that there was demand for 5x weekly all along, but NZ was deliberately charging inflated fares and restricting supply?

The Honolulu case is really scandalous, an example of how an airline can abuse a market monopoly to maximise yields but minimise volumes, yet end up inflicting self-harm upon itself.

If Air NZ had kept its lounge and kept 5 to 7 weekly frequencies at sensible prices they might now dominate Honolulu's markets from not just NZ but also BNE, SYD and MEL.

Even now, with Seats To Suit, AKL-HNL fare levels in both classes on Air NZ are around 40% higher than on the equivalent SYD-HNL flight, even when corrected for distance. I suspect that the bloated yields of the last ten years have been economically insignificant compared with the missed opportunity to sell 1200 seats per week instead of 500.

[Edited 2013-04-18 23:31:02]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14528 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 2):
Firstly, while I am fiercely proud of the decision to legalise gay marriage, I don't think that it will really affect Air New Zealand or New Zealand aviation at all. It's marvellous, but I can't see an impact, sorry.

Whether it does or it doesn't, it's created headlines, which is half of the battle:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10878374

"Rainbow ruling lures pot of Aussie gold"

But I worry that you put words in my mouth, Koruman:

Quoting koruman (Reply 2):
In Mariner's example, surely anyone going to Gallipoli would fly 1-stop from New Zealand on Emirates rather than flying Air NZ to London and then backtracking on Turkish Airlines to London? I suppose that there could be a transfer at Hong Kong, but all the same, it's not exactly a big market

I didn't claim it was a big market. It is some market, but I said that my comments about Gallipoli were not all aviation related:

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
Old enemies become new friends.

Sorry you missed the point.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1761 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14481 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 199):
NZ 787 ops will almost certainly be to the EH destinations like HKG/NRT/PVG while 777s will fly to the WH like LAX/SFO/YVR/South America.

I wonder what AKL-RAR-LAX and AKL-RAR-SYD will be operated with after the 763s retire. Seems a waste to put the new 789 on these routes, but 772 maybe too big?


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14344 times:

Quoting cchan (Reply 4):
I wonder what AKL-RAR-LAX and AKL-RAR-SYD will be operated with after the 763s retire. Seems a waste to put the new 789 on these routes, but 772 maybe too big?

the question remains whether Christopher will maintain the RAR-LAX sector in the future, especially if the best aircraft for the job is not going to remain in the fleet. Even with the the 763 still in the fleet, if say CHC-PER proves to be a hit I could see the frequency increase coming from the RAR-LAX service.

RAR-SYD can be operated with whatever aircraft type is the ground spare easily enough - the rotation can pretty much be completed in 24h, it's the AKL-RAR-LAX-RAR-AKL flight which takes a plane out of action for around 40h and is harder to schedule..


User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1761 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 14313 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 5):
the question remains whether Christopher will maintain the RAR-LAX sector in the future, especially if the best aircraft for the job is not going to remain in the fleet. Even with the the 763 still in the fleet, if say CHC-PER proves to be a hit I could see the frequency increase coming from the RAR-LAX service.

From memory, RAR-LAX is sustained by an agreement / contract with the Cook Islands government. Any idea when does that agreement expires?


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1703 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 14230 times:

''Air NZ's trans-Pacific flight plans hit bump''

Air New Zealand's trans-Pacific plans for operating Boeing 787 Dreamliners have hit a major problem with an announcement in Washington that rules over how far they can fly from an airport are unlikely to be extended.

As the rule for Extended Twin-engine Operations (ETOPS) now stands, Air New Zealand will not be able to fly its new Dreamliners direct from Auckland to the United States or Canada without a stop or a significant route change.

Under ETOPS, twin-engine planes must always be within 180 minutes' flight of an airport when flying on a single engine in an emergency.

Boeing sold the troubled aircraft on the basis that ETOPS would be changed to 330 minutes.

But today the US Federal Aviation Agency (FAA) chief Michael Huerta told a Senate hearing in Washington that the authority was going to further restrict the ETOPS rule.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...rans-Pacific-flight-plans-hit-bump



NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3005 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14203 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 7):
But today the US Federal Aviation Agency (FAA) chief Michael Huerta told a Senate hearing in Washington that the authority was going to further restrict the ETOPS rule.

He didn't say that. He just said that it's under review. See the last thread.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7411 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14189 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
I think it is great that it will be in place in good time for 1915, the centenary of Gallipolli.

Except for the fact that the number of Kiwis allowed to go to Gallipoli for ANZAC Day has been significantly reduced, it was capped at 2000, whereas the Aussies get 8000 places. So really there won't be that much demand.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14142 times:
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Quoting kiwirob (Reply 9):
Except for the fact that the number of Kiwis allowed to go to Gallipoli for ANZAC Day has been significantly reduced, it was capped at 2000, whereas the Aussies get 8000 places. So really there won't be that much demand.

As I tried to explain to Koruman, I am more concerned with the symbolic significance of it. As in:

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
Old enemies become new friends.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineaotearoa From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 13931 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 7):

Be careful of quoting the media direct as they often get- it-wrong!

This article is plainly incorrect. Air New Zealand currently conducts EDTO 180 minute operations on all its current Pacific and Asia routes. In fact EDTO 240 minute operations are about to commence for the 777-300 operation, however looking at the current route structure and expedited cruise winds, do not expect to see EDTO 240 used very often at all.

How anyone can portray EDTO 180 for the 787 as being short term problem for the airline is beyond me........

[Edited 2013-04-19 21:43:54]

User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 883 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 13889 times:

Quoting aotearoa (Reply 11):
In fact EDTO 240 minute operations are about to commence for the 777-300 operation

Air NZ 77W's were approved for ETOPS 240 mins in Dec 2011 and there were Boeing and Air NZ press releases about the first flight LAX-AKL.

The press releases were removed from both websites during 2012. What happenned?

PA515

[Edited 2013-04-19 22:55:02]

User currently offlinenz2 From New Zealand, joined Aug 2007, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13843 times:

Has anyone one else completed the survey currently doing the rounds from Luxon? Curious to know what others think of it

User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days ago) and read 13800 times:

Quoting cchan (Reply 6):
Any idea when does that agreement expires?

I recall it being renegotiated about the same time NZ18 stopped being RAR-PPT-LAX. If it's up for renewal about the same time as the 763s are supposed to go then they may have to offer a great incentive to maintain NZ. I recall last time that there were problems even getting the Cooks to pay what they are paying.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12172 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 13760 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting nz2 (Reply 13):

Is that survey for NZ staff or members of the public?


User currently offlineZKEOJ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2005, 1024 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13651 times:

Quoting nz2 (Reply 13):
Has anyone one else completed the survey currently doing the rounds from Luxon? Curious to know what others think of it

yup, done it, and gave them my peace  
Quoting 777ER (Reply 15):
Is that survey for NZ staff or members of the public?

For Gold and Gold Elite members

Cheers
micha


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 883 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13584 times:

Air NZ are sending a 744 to Phuket 25 to 30 Jun 2013.
25 Jun AKL-HKT 1040/1655
30 Jun HKT-AKL 1845/1045+1
Seats remaining: 245 Economy, 27 Premium Economy, 19 Business Premier

http://grabaseat.co.nz/secure/getaways

PA515


User currently offlineaotearoa From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13529 times:

Quoting PA515 (Reply 12):

I'm not sure why these were removed. The LAX AKL flight you referred to definitely used EDTO 240, as did the AKL GRU AKL flight.

There were a few final issues to resolve before the airline put EDTO 240 into regular use. One of these was some additional software onboard to help crew monitor for fuel leakage at a supply and engine level. This software is now aboard and the crew have been instructed how to use this.

So use of this new capability will occur on a more regular basis from this point on. However, unless one of the en-route alternates is unavailable for some reason (like weather), it won't be used that often. Also, the Tahitians have a very expensive charging schedule for use of their airspace which ensures Air New Zealand doesn't often plan flights into their airspace, as the cost benefit equation doesn't often stack up.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 13474 times:

Quoting aotearoa (Reply 18):
as did the AKL GRU AKL flight.

Is there anywhere that this flight plan could be accessed? Since IPC is so critical to this route is the weather predictable enough to be able to stick to a schedule most days? Is IPC a 24/7 airport and also what CAT level are the landing aids if any?


User currently offlinenz2 From New Zealand, joined Aug 2007, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 13430 times:

Quoting ZKEOJ (Reply 16):
yup, done it, and gave them my peace

Yes same here. I thought it was almost an acknowledgement of the fact there is some serious issues with the loyalty program and I did use some of the examples Koruman has put forward over the last year or two. Hopefully it will have the effect of swinging the weighting back to actual flying instead of retail purchases. I beleive a good move by Luxon, even giving the direct email of the program head (forget the name) so it appears to be a move to be more engaging with top tier customers


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 13400 times:

Air NZ eyes crew cutbacks

They're making a profit but claim that their cost base is 20% higher than other airlines.. And that leads to staff cuts.

Less cabin crew = potential for worse service.. ie 763s will be serviced by 7 people rather than 8.

Not only that but it seems like there's going to be a revival of a second entity, similar to what ZEAL320 was - which seems like it'll cover the 787, 767 and A320 fleets.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3205 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 13396 times:

Quoting ZKEOJ (Reply 16):
yup, done it, and gave them my peace

Sorry was that peace or piece?

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 14):
I recall last time that there were problems even getting the Cooks to pay what they are paying.

I may well have a befuddled memory, but I seem to recall the New Zealand Govt. coming to the party in the guise of NZAid, thus enabling the Govt. of The Cooks to recommit to the flight, unlike the Govt. of Samoa when its Tongan counterpart pulled out of their JV.



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 862 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 13368 times:

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 22):
Sorry was that peace or piece?

A debate which surfaces every now and then. The answer is, in fact, peace.

I gave them my $0.02 worth too. The airpoints scheme for me is all about status credits to maintain NZ *G. And as soon as EK/QF return to AKL-LAX, it's all over for me and Air NZ. Had enough of the overpriced fares and progressively less comfortable inflight product. It could well be that the high-density 77W, and ratty little A320s on the Tasman are appropriate for the market as a whole - but sorry, it isn't for me.

[Edited 2013-04-20 17:08:37]

User currently offlineaotearoa From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 13370 times:



My apologies. My earlier post referred to the AKL GRU AKL flight, clearly I need to not try and remember IATA airport codes from memory....I really meant to refer to the AKL EZE AKL flight!

In response to the question on the use of Easter Island, yes it is a critical part of the EDTO operation if one wants to operate anywhere close to the GC route.

Please refer to the two thumbnails above from GC Mapper. One shows EDTO 240 and the other EDTO 330. Clearly the EDTO 330 is the way to go in terms of route flexibility. I'm not sure when ANZ intends to apply for this approval.

Easter Island has some key restrictions, one being apron space. I believe this needs to be 'booked' to cover the extremely remote case of an en-route diversion. It's reasonably served with approach aids; an ILS at one end plus an RNAV approach, VOR and NDB approaches on the other end. I'm unfamiliar with the weather patterns.


User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3205 posts, RR: 9
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 13521 times:

Quoting gasman (Reply 23):
And as soon as EK/QF return to AKL-LAX

Gosh, hadn't thought of that. EK will soon have RTW capability if they do this.



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7107 posts, RR: 11
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13440 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 21):

Yea Long haul will be operated by 1 set of crew (777 and 747) while Taspac will be operated by another set (320, 767, 787). Thought it was a bit strange that PVG and NRT and KIX will be classed under Taspac.

Good to hear the gold & gold elite members are having their say, hopefully for the better of the airline

[Edited 2013-04-20 18:55:08]

User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12172 posts, RR: 17
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13550 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 21):
Not only that but it seems like there's going to be a revival of a second entity, similar to what ZEAL320 was - which seems like it'll cover the 787, 767 and A320 fleets.

What I got from that article is that the B767 is the only aircraft (at this stage) in the fleet thats having reduced crewing and the A320/B787/B767 have extra slots to fill. I didn't get any message anywhere that the A320/B787 fleet is reducing crew numbers but that they need more crew to cover the extra fleet additions

Maybe the B767 could be moving to a LCC type market?

I feel the Herald article isn't giving the full picture as its conflicting regarding the B763 fleet. If NZ is reducing the 763 crew then why are NZ wanting more 763 crew when there isn't any more 763s coming? Is NZ planning on increasing B763 flying which requires more crew?


User currently offlineZKEOJ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2005, 1024 posts, RR: 6
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 13459 times:

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 22):

Sorry was that peace or piece?
Quoting gasman (Reply 23):
A debate which surfaces every now and then. The answer is, in fact, peace.

 


Re the NZ Airpoints programme: When living in Canada I was UA Premier Executive and really liked it. I was contemplating going back, but now hey have the 3 UA sector requirement, which I won;t get. Same with AC (which I also liked). So, unless you are flying a lot more and can afford Miles & More (70K for Gold), or have a specific airline you regulalrly fly on, you are stuck with NZ (Krisflyer is a pretty poor system as well) if you want to stay with Star...

Cheers
micha


User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 862 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 13448 times:

Quoting ZKEOJ (Reply 28):
if you want to stay with Star...

And therin lies the issue. While EK isn't anything like the airline it's cracked up to be, it does have quite a generous loyalty program. If QF or EK start flying AKL-LAX, there really is no need to stay with Star Alliance. I would miss flying on SQ, for sure, but that might be a price I'd be prepared to pay.


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 13359 times:

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 26):
Thought it was a bit strange that PVG and NRT and KIX will be classed under Taspac.

That basically shows you what their intentions are.. That the 763 and 789 will be the plane of choice to these places.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 27):

What I got from that article is that the B767 is the only aircraft (at this stage) in the fleet thats having reduced crewing and the A320/B787/B767 have extra slots to fill.

Reduced crewing in terms of per plane but the whole cohort will need more FAs, especially when the 787 comes onboard. They're probably on the minimum number for the A320 as it stands already and you can't reduce staff on the 787 when you don't even know how many there'll be in the first place..

Quoting gasman (Reply 29):
While EK isn't anything like the airline it's cracked up to be, it does have quite a generous loyalty program.

Depends on what class you fly. It used to be good for Y passengers until they introduced saver fares and chopped the earning rate for the cheaper fares.

Quoting ZKEOJ (Reply 28):

If you're only wanting *G, A3 is probably the way to go..



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 862 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 13294 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 30):
If you're only wanting *G, A3 is probably the way to go.

definitely - although you can't imagine it'll be long before the rest of the Star network puts pressure on A3 to close this little loophole.


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 13173 times:

Quoting gasman (Reply 31):

But in saying that, if you get it now, you've got it for 2 years - they're highly unlikely to revoke membership or that'd cause an exodus. So in essence, it'd take 2 years for the effects of A3's cheapness to come to an end. It's funny because the TK status match slowed down for US residents because people would just use that in order to gain access to the UA lounges.

Though A3 should put a requirement to fly on A3 in order to get *G.. There must be thousands who haven't even been to Europe or used A3 who have A3 Gold.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 13129 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 32):
Though A3 should put a requirement to fly on A3 in order to get *G.. There must be thousands who haven't even been to Europe or used A3 who have A3 Gold.

Sure, there are plenty - but if it isn't a problem for A3, then it shouldn't be a problem for Star. Remember by having so many members who have never flown them they have much higher liability..

Quoting gasman (Reply 31):
definitely - although you can't imagine it'll be long before the rest of the Star network puts pressure on A3 to close this little loophole.

The Star Alliance can't do much about it ultimately even if they don't like it - they signed them up knowing this was the case and did not make it a condition of membership to change at the time.. Same as it can't seem to do anything about NZ not offering plus one 20kg bag for *G on a seat only fare or for having an alliance with non Star (read rival alliance) carrier CX despite both contravening what they want from a member.


Quoting NZ107 (Reply 32):
if you get it now, you've got it for 2 years

If you qualified today it would be valid 1/2016


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 34, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 13115 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 33):

Sure, there are plenty - but if it isn't a problem for A3, then it shouldn't be a problem for Star

The point I wanted to get to was the fact that they could make a little bit off these people themselves and maybe even help the Greek economy... But yeah, that's not going to happen, is it!



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13104 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 33):
The Star Alliance can't do much about it ultimately even if they don't like it - they signed them up knowing this was the case and did not make it a condition of membership to change at the time.. Same as it can't seem to do anything about NZ not offering plus one 20kg bag for *G on a seat only fare or for having an alliance with non Star (read rival alliance) carrier CX despite both contravening what they want from a member.

Funnily the most recent Airpoints update had the following regarding Star Gold benefits:

With Star Alliance Gold Status you can enjoy additional comfort and peace of mind in over 1300 airports around the world when travelling on the Star Alliance network, such as:

• Airport Lounge Access - You and a guest can relax in over 1000 airport lounges^.
• Extra Baggage Allowance - Get an additional 20kg where the weight concept applies or an extra bag under the piece concept (available if fare includes a checked bag).

^Lounge access available when travelling on an eligible fare

The Star Alliance website does not have the footnote (it must mean Night Rider fare) nor the fare must include a checked bag exception. While they have forgotten to add that you cannot bring an extra check in baggage on their Business Class flights, you can see how they have got out of the way to lead you to believe their rules are legit in the Star Alliance marketing format. UA, US domestic flights in Economy do not include any bags but Star Gold gets 3 bags for free. Virgin Australia being a non aligned carrier even does better NZ and gives free bags to NZ elites within Australia. I am really puzzled as to how they can just change the wording of the alliance rules and repeatedly getting away with it.

[Edited 2013-04-21 02:29:23]

User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1224 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 13023 times:

A few things that have got me thinking...

Air New Zealand's next Airbus A320 has been assigned a serial number! The aircraft will apparently be ZK-OJT and will have the serial number 5629. The most recent A32X to be delivered is MSN 5581. This means there are 45 more A32Xs to build/delivered until ZK-OJT. Based on the production rate of 42 A32Xs per month, we can assume ZK-OJT will begin her delivery flight somewhere close to the 22nd/23rd of May. Because the aircraft has apparently been assigned a ZK-OJ* registration, I assume that it won't have sharklets (the ZK-OX* aircraft are the ones getting them). Is this correct?

Also does anyone know the plans for ZK-NGE? Is she going to be scrapped or returned to her lessor?

The next season of Air Crash Investigation will feature XL Airways Germany Flight 888T (the crash of ZK-OJL) and Air New Zealand Flight 901.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 27):
why are NZ wanting more 763 crew when there isn't any more 763s coming?

Too many 767 pilots were 'upgraded' to the 777s which turned out to be premature due to 787 delays. This is my understanding anyway.



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3005 posts, RR: 27
Reply 37, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 13005 times:

Quoting gasman (Reply 23):
Had enough of the overpriced fares and progressively less comfortable inflight product.

It took 55 years, but I gave up on them last year. If you buy a flight with a N. American connection from NZ, you'll pay more than double for the connection than you would purchasing a separate ticket. I think NZ is in Commerce Commission territory for some of its gouging practices.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 4
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12928 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 21):
They're making a profit but claim that their cost base is 20% higher than other airlines.. And that leads to staff cuts.

Good. Glad to see they're going to address their cost base.

Quoting gasman (Reply 23):
A debate which surfaces every now and then. The answer is, in fact, peace.

This I did not know. Funny the things you learn, and where you learn them  


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11691 posts, RR: 33
Reply 39, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12927 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 36):
Air New Zealand's next Airbus A320 has been assigned a serial number! The aircraft will apparently be ZK-OJT and will have the serial number 5629. The most recent A32X to be delivered is MSN 5581. This means there are 45 more A32Xs to build/delivered until ZK-OJT. Based on the production rate of 42 A32Xs per month, we can assume ZK-OJT will begin her delivery flight somewhere close to the 22nd/23rd of May. Because the aircraft has apparently been assigned a ZK-OJ* registration, I assume that it won't have sharklets (the ZK-OX* aircraft are the ones getting them). Is this correct?

Correct, ZK-OJT will not have sharklets.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 883 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12925 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 36):
Air New Zealand's next Airbus A320 has been assigned a serial number! The aircraft will apparently be ZK-OJT and will have the serial number 5629.

Planespotters has ZK-OJT while ATDB has ZK-OXA. E-mailed planespotters two days ago but no reply so far.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 36):
Also does anyone know the plans for ZK-NGE? Is she going to be scrapped or returned to her lessor?

Possibly both. NGE had a test flight on 15 April and an 11 April photo has the Koru painted over and no titles.

http://mrcaviation.blogspot.co.nz/2013/04/export-pending.html

PA515


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1224 posts, RR: 1
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12818 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 39):
Correct, ZK-OJT will not have sharklets.

  That is unfortunate. I was rather hoping that I was wrong.

Quoting PA515 (Reply 40):
Planespotters has ZK-OJT while ATDB has ZK-OXA. E-mailed planespotters two days ago but no reply so far.

NZ1's most recent post on fleet deliveries has -OXA due to being delivered in June. However, the following article indicates that the delivery of one aircraft has been brought forward. Maybe the price of having the earlier delivery slot is having to forfeit sharklets, thus it would then make sense to register the aircraft ZK-OJT as it is identical to the other domestic, non-sharkletted A320s (ZK-OAB, ZK-OJQ, ZK-OJR and ZK-OJS).

Alternatively (not to discount what KarelXWB says, but I love thinking in the hypothetical); maybe the next A320 is ZK-OXA but there is a couple of weeks worth of post delivery work for ANZES to do before the aircraft enters service in June.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ticle.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10856919

Quoting PA515 (Reply 40):
Possibly both. NGE had a test flight on 15 April and an 11 April photo has the Koru painted over and no titles.

Oops, notsure how I missed that blog post.

[Edited 2013-04-21 13:35:59]


Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11691 posts, RR: 33
Reply 42, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12775 times:

I also took a look in the ATDB, it says:

- MSN5629: ZK-OXA, 06/13
- MSN5682: ZK-???, 07/13
- MSN5847: ZK-???, 11/13

All with sharklets.

So who has it wrong   



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineaotearoa From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12780 times:

I believe there was some discussion around ZK-OAB being re-registered with an OJ series tail number. Maybe this is OJT? However this doesn't make much sense as the logical rego would be ZK-OJP..........

I can assure you all that the next delivery from Airbus is a sharklet A320, ZK-OXA for the domestic operation.The airline will not take any more A320s without sharklets. This a/c is due in NZ late June. It is already on the final assembly line in TLS.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11691 posts, RR: 33
Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 12770 times:

Thanks, case solved. Planespotters is having it wrong.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineaotearoa From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 12753 times:

Just took a look at Planespotters. It's a simple case of the wrong rego for MSN 5629. This frame is ZK-OXA, the sharklet equipped domestic aircraft.

User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 12715 times:

Quoting aotearoa (Reply 44):
The airline will not take any more A320s without sharklets.

Makes me wonder if they still offer the original wingtip for sale.. But can't wait to see the sharkletted A320 and also what livery it will carry! Or would they paint it black if they're still unsure? It'd look superb with black sharklets.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1224 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 12662 times:

Also, ZK-MVC is due to be delivered anytime soon. I'm going to search around for some photos of in in Toulouse. It should be out of the factory by now. Planespotters.net has its MSN as 1084.

Quoting aotearoa (Reply 44):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 45):

Thanks for solving this.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 47):
Makes me wonder if they still offer the original wingtip for sale.

Well, like with blended winglets on the 737, the benefits of sharklets depend on many factors (mainly the distance of the flight). If an airline primarily does lots of really short-haul flying, the benefits from the reduced fuel burn are negated by their additional weight ( that of the extra wing strengthening required). Looking at the 737 line however, every 737 delivered by Boeing this year has had Blended Winglets installed (exception being the P-8 Poseidons which have raked wingtips). This was the first year where this has been the case, despite the Blended Winglets being avaliable for more than 10 years. I suppose we can expect the same will be happening with the A320s in a few years time (not in the least because sharklets are standard equipment on the NEO).

[Edited 2013-04-21 17:16:08]


Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 48, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 12623 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 48):
Well, like with blended winglets on the 737, the benefits of sharklets depend on many factors (mainly the distance of the flight). If an airline primarily does lots of really short-haul flying, the benefits from the reduced fuel burn are negated by their additional weight ( that of the extra wing strengthening required)

I suppose so.. Though it can't be that significant, surely? Especially seeing that the sharklets are smaller than the blended winglets too- thus probably needing less strengthening etc. And also the fact that NZ are going to put the sharkletted ones on domestic routes instead of reconfiguring the international fleet for domestic use..



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineMr AirNZ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 867 posts, RR: 1
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 12608 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 27):
I feel the Herald article isn't giving the full picture as its conflicting regarding the B763 fleet. If NZ is reducing the 763 crew then why are NZ wanting more 763 crew when there isn't any more 763s coming? Is NZ planning on increasing B763 flying which requires more crew?

It's just a change of whose doing the flying. The change relates to cabin crew with the aircraft to be crewed by Taspac (A320 international Flight Attendants). The 767 is being added to the Taspac operation, the 777/747 will continue to be operated by current long haul flight attendants. Bit of shuffling going on but the number of cabin crew across the entire Air New Zealand group will remain fairly similar, there are just changes to what people are operating what aircraft and on what contract.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 36):
Too many 767 pilots were 'upgraded' to the 777s which turned out to be premature due to 787 delays. This is my understanding anyway.

Not true. Tech crew have nothing to do with the changes above. Various internal movement but that's always the case with a seniority based system. I do not believe there is an excess of crew in any rank on any fleet at the moment.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 36):
Also does anyone know the plans for ZK-NGE? Is she going to be scrapped or returned to her lessor?

Owned by Air New Zealand so they control the destiny. Not sure of what's happening with this frame though.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 48):
Also, ZK-MVC is due to be delivered anytime soon.

Delays during production. In service mid to late May now.

[Edited 2013-04-21 18:36:09]

User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1224 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12578 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 49):
I suppose so.. Though it can't be that significant, surely? Especially seeing that the sharklets are smaller than the blended winglets too- thus probably needing less strengthening etc. And also the fact that NZ are going to put the sharkletted ones on domestic routes instead of reconfiguring the international fleet for domestic use..

Agreed. Production constraints likely have something to do with it also. 42 A320s per month means 84 sharklets per month for the manufacturer (Korean Air Aerospace) to build. I assume that the increase in production takes a while.

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 50):
I do not believe there is an excess of crew in any rank on any fleet at the moment.

Glad its been sorted then (assuming that there was an excess to begin with). The info was getting old anyway, so I would hope that it had been sorted out by now.

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 50):
Delays during production. In service mid to late May now.

  Hopefully with a Teal coloured tail.



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineMr AirNZ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 867 posts, RR: 1
Reply 51, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12575 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 51):
Hopefully with a Teal coloured tail.

I've seen a photo. Looked pretty black to me sorry.


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12518 times:

Air NZ improves ground experience at LAX

Looks like good news for passengers on NZ1/2 transiting at LAX.. Sounds like the end of the holding pen. Let's see if it'll be a common occurrence for general international transfers at LAX.


It also stated that mid-2014 is the beginning of the 772 retrofit.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineBonzoLab From New Zealand, joined Jun 2012, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12468 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 48):
Also, ZK-MVC is due to be delivered anytime soon. I'm going to search around for some photos of in in Toulouse. It should be out of the factory by now. Planespotters.net has its MSN as 1084.

MVC suffered damage on the production line, and acceptance by Air NZ was initially refused until repairs were made. In service here mid-May.


User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 862 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 12398 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 36):
The next season of Air Crash Investigation will feature XL Airways Germany Flight 888T (the crash of ZK-OJL) and Air New Zealand Flight 901.

Here's hoping the TE901 episode will be balanced - and not yet another regurgitation of the facile views of Holmes and Mahon.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12172 posts, RR: 17
Reply 55, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 12377 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 50):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 27):I feel the Herald article isn't giving the full picture as its conflicting regarding the B763 fleet. If NZ is reducing the 763 crew then why are NZ wanting more 763 crew when there isn't any more 763s coming? Is NZ planning on increasing B763 flying which requires more crew?
It's just a change of whose doing the flying. The change relates to cabin crew with the aircraft to be crewed by Taspac (A320 international Flight Attendants). The 767 is being added to the Taspac operation, the 777/747 will continue to be operated by current long haul flight attendants. Bit of shuffling going on but the number of cabin crew across the entire Air New Zealand group will remain fairly similar, there are just changes to what people are operating what aircraft and on what contract.

Could this see a launch of an international LCC flying for NZ to better compete against the likes of JQ? What routes will the B763s fly?

Quoting zkojq (Reply 51):
Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 50):Delays during production. In service mid to late May now.
Hopefully with a Teal coloured tail.

NZ1, is there any updates on the black tail 'hold'?


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 56, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 12343 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 55):
Could this see a launch of an international LCC flying for NZ to better compete against the likes of JQ?

What competition from JQ? Reports are that their AKL-SIN route is not doing that well.. So there's no other JQ route to be 'competing against'. And it'd be a mistake to put the 763 back on AKL-SIN without the herringbone J.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineNZ1 From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 2266 posts, RR: 25
Reply 57, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 12336 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting 777ER (Reply 55):
NZ1, is there any updates on the black tail 'hold'?

No further updates yet sorry.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 36):
Also does anyone know the plans for ZK-NGE? Is she going to be scrapped or returned to her lessor?

NGE is slated to head to an airline in Africa. Two more aircraft to follow. It's not a done deal yet, but that is the current plan.

NZ1


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1703 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 12336 times:

some news today, feeding thru the email's the new 77W's will be used on the SFO next year, (which will speed up the retirement of the 744's -

''Los Angeles isn't the only city enjoying a bit of Kiwi attention. AirNZ will upgrade its daily Auckland – San Francisco services next year, with two new Boeing 777-300 aircraft replacing the current Boeing 747-400s in July and October 2014.''

So looks like the 772's will be used to start some new routes?



NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlineMr AirNZ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 867 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days ago) and read 12266 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 55):
Could this see a launch of an international LCC flying for NZ to better compete against the likes of JQ? What routes will the B763s fly?

Not the plan. JQ are likely to announce soon the cancellation of the AKL-SIN route so as NZ107 says, what competition?

The 767s (and then 787s) will go where they currently go and in the future wherever the company wants them to go. Other than a reduced crew complement (8 down to 7 Cabin Crew on the 767), you as the customer should see no difference. There are currently three cabin crew groups (Domestic, Taspac, Longhaul) and (at least for the next few years), once this is all up an running there will still be three groups - Domestic, Taspac (including 767s/787s) and Longhaul.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12172 posts, RR: 17
Reply 60, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days ago) and read 12234 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 56):
Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 59):
Not the plan. JQ are likely to announce soon the cancellation of the AKL-SIN route so as NZ107 says, what competition?

I wasn't aware JQs AKL-SIN route wasn't performing well. What competition? JQ is a threat that NZ can't ignore. JQ can easily launch routes from AKL using A320s and A330s. Any attempt to stop/restrict JQ expanding from AKL is what NZ will do if needed

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 59):
once this is all up an running there will still be three groups - Domestic, Taspac (including 767s/787s) and Longhaul.

Is NZ now not planning on operating the B787 non stop to the USA? Could see some moaning from the long haul crews if TasPac crews operate B787s non stop to the USA if ETOPS isn't restricted?

[Edited 2013-04-22 01:10:32]

User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 61, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12215 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 58):
So looks like the 772's will be used to start some new routes?

As I said from the beginning. the 77W was never going to be a new unproven routes.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 60):
Is NZ now not planning on operating the B787 non stop to the USA?

no. the US is firmly 77W territory. YVR definitely 77E territory. The config of the 789s will not be suitable IMO


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 62, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12182 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 60):
JQ is a threat that NZ can't ignore. JQ can easily launch routes from AKL using A320s and A330s

Of course they can easily launch routes from AKL. Doesn't mean they'll succeed. If they can't get SIN to work, where will they get to work? Japan? NZ doesn't do great on that themselves. China? When did NZ actually thrive on these routes? HKG? Could they actually break through the NZ/CX partnership, seeing they can't get through the SQ barrier at SIN? BKK? TG doesn't even operate daily during the winter. KUL? Would they get/have the rights to compete against MH? And even MH don't operate daily over the winter. HNL? Is there really room for 3 competitors, where JQ has no onward connections?

Would they be game enough to open MNL if they had the rights? That and possibly DPS (though GA is said to be on this route again very soon) seem like the only other options to the west, without any guarantee of success. I wouldn't expect them to work for JQ right now. PER might work if they had a longer range A320.

Would LAX work with the high capacity A332s they have? Maybe we have one actually viable route which they could take. But I wonder if EK has lobbied QF to get AKL-LAX back for use of future codesharing.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineMr AirNZ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 867 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12189 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 60):
I wasn't aware JQs AKL-SIN route wasn't performing well. What competition? JQ is a threat that NZ can't ignore. JQ can easily launch routes from AKL using A320s and A330s. Any attempt to stop/restrict JQ expanding from AKL is what NZ will do if needed

There is plenty of international competition from New Zealand. It just isn't really in the low cost form of Jetstar. There a murmurings from a wide variety of sources on the net that under performing longhaul routes at Jetstar are to be axed and aircraft redeployed to where they can make more money. If AKL-SIN with connections to much of Asia couldn't work, where next? The U.S.A maybe but that's about it and you've got to ask yourself, with a limited number of aircraft, could JQ (and the Qantas group) make more money using them elsewhere?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 60):
Is NZ now not planning on operating the B787 non stop to the USA? Could see some moaning from the long haul crews if TasPac crews operate B787s non stop to the USA if ETOPS isn't restricted?

I understand 180 ETOPS on the 787 remains unchanged allowing use on the North American routes. With the announcement today of the extra 77W aircraft being deployed on the SFO route, I think we can see it's definitely Asia for the first of the 789s (PVG, KIX, NRT). Contract issues are for the specific groups to address and work through as things change.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12172 posts, RR: 17
Reply 64, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12062 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 61):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 60):Is NZ now not planning on operating the B787 non stop to the USA?
no. the US is firmly 77W territory. YVR definitely 77E territory. The config of the 789s will not be suitable IMO

So no new USA routes opening with 787s? NZ was previously saying the new 787 would open/enable new North American destinations (IAH, ORD, JFK/EWR as options) so its amazing what can happen. IMHO its sad that NZ isn't going to use the Dreamliner for higher yielding routes which would earn more money.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 62):

You've left out one important market thats served from AKL....the South Pacific region! Many options from AKL including the highly unlikly Island hopping to HNL/LAX.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 65, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12057 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 60):
JQ can easily launch routes from AKL using A320s and A330s.

I believe if there were viable options, JQ would have been far more aggressively expanding NZL services. I think you underestimate NZ a little here, they are a dominant and very influential carrier within their niche. JQ struggle domestically, they struggle internationally from NZ and it is the goal of new NZ CEO to drive them into a corner - which appears to be working.


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 66, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12032 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 65):
it is the goal of new NZ CEO to drive them into a corner - which appears to be working.

It seems to be the goal of every NZ CEO to drive competitors to the corner - It didn't take long for Freedom Air to rampage all over Kiwi Air.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 64):
the South Pacific region!

Ok, let's map this one out then.. PPT - too high yielding for JQ pax/target market - they're most likely to avoid it once they see the high accommodation prices etc. Same would go with NOU. Then you have NLK, VLI, IUE etc which are far too small for any more services than what's provided at present. NAN, RAR, TBU and APW is basically what's left. That's not exactly significant if they happen to send an A320 to each place daily. Chances are NZ has them covered quite easily. Though JQ has a base in NAN in which they could potentially grow from. They're still going to remain a minnow though.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1224 posts, RR: 1
Reply 67, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12025 times:

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 52):
I've seen a photo. Looked pretty black to me sorry.

   Grrrrr. Thanks for the info anyway.

Quoting BonzoLab (Reply 53):
MVC suffered damage on the production line

I hope she gets fixed up satisfactorily. Thanks for sharing.

Quoting gasman (Reply 54):
Here's hoping the TE901 episode will be balanced - and not yet another regurgitation of the facile views of Holmes and Mahon.

Agreed, though realistically in a one hour episode they never get very deep into the issues anyway.

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 57):
NGE is slated to head to an airline in Africa. Two more aircraft to follow. It's not a done deal yet, but that is the current plan.

Glad its going to be getting a second (well fourth actually) life abroad.  

For those interested, I've compiled some photos of where other Air New Zealand (and Freedom Air) 737-300s ended up.

ZK-NGA - served from 1998 to 2006. Currently operated by Ukranian Air Onix.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nikiforov Konstantin


ZK-NGB - served from 1998 to 2004. Currently operated by Canadian North. I love the look of its newly fitted winglets.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alevik


ZK-NGC - served from 1998 to 2004. Currently operated by Canadian North.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael Durning


ZK-NGN - served from 2001 to 2006. Recently retired by Norwegian Air Shuttle.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Lars Frøystein


ZK-FRE - served from 1999 to 2009. Eventually wearing the green Air New Zealand Holidays livery. ZK-FRE recently ended its service with Webjet (Webjet's new owner, GOL is shutting it down) in Brazil. It is due to be delivered to Mexican Viva Aerobus.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marcelo F. De Biasi


ZK-SJE - served from 2001 to 2012. Currently with Viva Aerobus in Mexico, alongside ZK-FRE.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jorge Meneses - Aviation Photography of Mexico


ZK-FDM - served from 1997 to 2006. Has spent two years unused, stored at Bournemouth Airport.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © A J Best



Air New Zealand got the last few 737-300s of the production line, so despite the aircraft being 737-300s, most of the aircraft are ~15 years old (ironically younger than some of the earlier 737NGs). This should make selling them a bit easier.



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 883 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11965 times:

After ZK-MVD arrives in September:

NPL-CHC gets twice daily DHC's eff. 14 Oct. NPL will have three overnighting DHC's.
NPL-CHC 0640/0805
NPL-AKL 0650/0735
NPL-WLG 0700/0750

AKL-NPE gets more AT7's eff. 02 Dec. AKL will have three overnighting AT7's.
AKL-NPE 0645/0745
AKL-NPL 0650/0735
AKL-PMR 0710/0815

Looks like there's going to be a spare DHC/AT7 for the combined fleet year round.

PA515

[Edited 2013-04-22 10:47:46]

User currently offlineMr AirNZ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 867 posts, RR: 1
Reply 69, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11884 times:

Quoting PA515 (Reply 68):
Looks like there's going to be a spare DHC/AT7 for the combined fleet year round.

Most of the time there is one (and often one of each) out for heavy maintenance.


User currently offlinealangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 70, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 11740 times:

JQ could be a different proposition when the 787s are in the fleet, when the airline knows what range they will get out of the planes. If the planes work as originally advertised (going back to 2005 promises) the 787 would fly between AKL and US West Coast with a much better payload than the A330-200s. In Qantas configuration the A332s only had bout 235 seats. Question might be whether this should be a Jetstar service, or a Qantas service, which is probably what American Airlines would prefer - is the market mainly NZ based leisure passengers, or some US based business travellers? If Qantas operate the service, and if 787s have the range, which they will eventually, then DFW-AKL.

User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 5
Reply 71, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 11732 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 61):
The config of the 789s will not be suitable IMO

Has this been announced ? If not are there any intelligent guess/estimates?

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 61):
As I said from the beginning. the 77W was never going to be a new unproven routes.

This leaves the 77E for South America. Nobody that I have contacted that I think might know can answer the question whether the FAA has approved the RR/777-200ER combination for EDTO 330min. Without that a service to South America's Atlantic seaboard would be severely restricted.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 5
Reply 72, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 11703 times:

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 70):
when the airline knows what range they will get out of the planes.

That is known now within a per cent or two. The 789 in 280-seat configuration will haul ~43t from LAX-AKL based on a 12hr 30m segment. The fuel burn will be about 71t The 788 in 242 -seat layout, ~36.5t and 62t respectively.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 73, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11655 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 71):
Has this been announced ? If not are there any intelligent guess/estimates?

not officially, it's rather hush-hush within the company but yes I have heard rumour of what it may be...

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 71):
Without that a service to South America's Atlantic seaboard would be severely restricted.

GRU/GIG are out of the running but that doesn't necessarily rule out all of Latin America..

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 70):
JQ could be a different proposition when the 787s are in the fleet

possibly, but there are plenty of NZers like me who won't set foot on JQ for longhaul. Why fly JQ when you can fly CI/CZ/TG around asia for not much more and be fed and have a bag?


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 74, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11639 times:

HKT charter is now a 77E rather than a 744...obviously not so popular

User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 75, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11515 times:

Jetstar pilots complain of lasers

No laughing matter.. But is the media trying to make the police look stupid? A Jetstar 737? Not that I ever expected them to get any facts right.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 76, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11524 times:

HKT charter? 744 or 77E?

Please, please tell me that Air New Zealand wasn't thinking of market-testing Phuket.

They already serve plenty of idyllic island holiday destinations where they can offer a short-haul LCC model to passengers on a short-haul LCC holiday.

They already have Bali as an LCC-priced destination which is a long-haul distance away, and have to massively restrict frequency and offer fare levels lower than anywhere else on the network, even China.

Please tell me that they didn't want to clone that with an even more distant LCC destination.

(edited now to reflect that I've found it on the website, and it's an even dumber enterprise than I thought!)

Economy: $2289 to 2899 (includes 5 nights accom in a hotel where couples pay $99 per person per night). 190 Economy seats unsold out of 242.

Premium Economy: $3049 to $3699, 24 seats unsold out of 36

Business Premier: $4999 to $5699, 5 seats unsold, unclear how many reserved for the organisers.

So during the Australian school holidays, instead of sending planes to LAX or HNL or even PPT to meet Australian demand, they let a widebody sit on the tarmac at a low-yield destination for 5 days?

Smart move.

[Edited 2013-04-23 00:01:06]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 77, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11555 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 76):
Please tell me that they didn't want to clone that with an even more distant LCC destination.

As you might guess, I'm rather hoping they do.  

If that's where Kiwis want to go, why not fly there.

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-23 00:03:07]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 78, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11549 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 77):
As you might guess, I'm rather hoping they do.

Yes Mariner, I thought you might, but I suspect that secretly you're hoping that Air NZ will collapse so totally that it becomes a subsidiary of Frontier. 219 unsold seats on a 304 seat aircraft makes it hard to say that "Kiwis want to go" there.

V Australia tried Phuket with 777s. It was a disaster.

John Borghetti put a stop to it as soon as he got in the door, saying that LCC destinations are only economic in high-density narrowbody aircraft, and that the costs of operating a premium-configured widebody make Australia-Phuket commercial suicide. What he was too refined to say - but I'm not - is that people going on holiday to follow the trajectory of ping-pong balls in Patong don't pay a premium for a lie-flat bed.

(I read the recent Metro article about the Las Vegas Grabaseat excursion. I hope that Air NZ's spin doctors understand that what few seats they have sold are probably media outlets sending staff in the hope of unearthing a "National carrier's ping pong shame in Patong" scandal. Drunken tomfoolery in Vegas is something that can be spun as fun. But promoting sexual slavery in Asia is a bit harder to spin.)

Even Jetstar is struggling with A330 services to Phuket, and is talking about switching to A320 one-stop services via Darwin.

Maybe "grabaseat" should be rebranded as 'growabrain". Not for you Mariner, but for the people who think there's money in flying a widebody halfway across the world to a low-yield destination like Vegas or Phuket or anywhere else, then leaving it on the tarmac for several days. I have a toilet at home that Air New Zealand can flush their cash down if they're in that business.

[Edited 2013-04-23 00:16:47]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 79, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11524 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 78):
es Mariner, I thought you might, but I suspect that secretly you're hoping that Air NZ will collapse so totally that it becomes a subsidiary of Frontier.

That isn't my wish for either airline, but I can't stop you making assumptions.

Quoting koruman (Reply 78):
I have a toilet at home that Air New Zealand can flush their cash down if they're in that business.

But you live in more affluent Australia, you spend up big on air travel. We're the cousins in the short trousers, remember?

Quoting koruman (Reply 78):
Even Jetstar is struggling with A330 services to Phuket, and is talking about switching to A320 one-stop services via Darwin.

I'd give my eye-teeth to see Air New Zealand set up a focus city at DRW with A320's and concentrate on all the "nearer Asia" destinations from there.

Since that isn't going to happen, I'd like to see Air NZ do more low frequency flying to Asia.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 80, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days ago) and read 11532 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 79):
I'd give my eye-teeth to see Air New Zealand set up a focus city at DRW with A320's and concentrate on all the "nearer Asia" destinations from there.

Believe it or not, me too.

Lion Air's entry into Australia ain't going to happen. If a nimble airline hubs narrowbody aircraft at Darwin or Broome they could make a lot of money flying to Bali, Lombok, Penang, Phuket and Vietnam.

The problem with widebodies to DPS and HKT is the high cost-base allied to the limited yields. But an Air Asia style operation using Australian traffic rights would be a great idea. And I'd support BOTH Phuket AND Bali!


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 81, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days ago) and read 11522 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 80):
The problem with widebodies to DPS and HKT is the high cost-base allied to the limited yields. But an Air Asia style operation using Australian traffic rights would be a great idea. And I'd support BOTH Phuket AND Bali!

At last - we agree.  

I'd add a few to that list from DRW - Kota Kinabalu, Langkawi, Lombok, even Balikpapan with the feed they'd get from Australia.

But - it isn't going to happen. And if Kiwis want to go to Bali - or Phuket - in sufficient numbers, I can't think of any reason Air NZ shouldn't fly 'em there.

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-23 00:28:47]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7107 posts, RR: 11
Reply 82, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11449 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 75):
No laughing matter.. But is the media trying to make the police look stupid? A Jetstar 737? Not that I ever expected them to get any facts right.

It is not laughing matter, yet look what happened to the last guy who got caught shining lasers into aircraft. He got a few hours community service and you could clearly see on TV he didn't think it was a big deal. There's been occasions where a helicopter has gone and pinpointed the house (with GPS co-ordinates) where the offenders lived, and yet nothing was done/found as the offenders denied it to police. This is all cases in NZ, not overseas.

My personal opinion, but to stop the matter they need to come down hard on this, as far as I'm concerned this 'prank' should be classed as attempted manslaughter. No different to standing in front of a bus lane and taking out the windscreen of the bus while it's travelling in an inner city street. Things could potentially go very wrong


User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 862 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11416 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 79):
We're the cousins in the short trousers, remember?

Do you think this might in fact become something of a self-fulfilling prophecy? If you provide, and market a LCC service you will end up attracting only the LCC type of passenger.

NZ have lost a lot of my business through not having a consistent J class product on the Tasman. On my MEL-AKL A320 flight the other day was a colleague who I know for a fact earns 7 figures per annum. Not every trans-Tasman passenger is a beneficiary off to visit the relatives at Bondi Junction. But to look at NZ's marketing, and product, you'd think they were. To not even off a J class product to those who, for whatever reason want or need it is unfathomable in my opinion. There are other options in the form of EK and QF.


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 84, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11400 times:

Air NZ CEO dreams of flying first 787 to China

Also implies that the 772 which goes to HKG will be put back on the PVG route... Effectively meaning the 763 will go on the HKG route? Something quite inevitable seeing that they've partnered with CX but isn't that some sort of anti-competitive behaviour? Because nobody paying for Business is going to go with NZ's cradle when they can pick the coffin of CX with a NZ code. There goes any thought of a NZ code for HKG-LHR on CX. You may as well switch to CX now if you plan on flying to Europe via HKG.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11355 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 84):
Also implies that the 772 which goes to HKG will be put back on the PVG route... Effectively meaning the 763 will go on the HKG route? Something quite inevitable seeing that they've partnered with CX but isn't that some sort of anti-competitive behaviour? Because nobody paying for Business is going to go with NZ's cradle when they can pick the coffin of CX with a NZ code. There goes any thought of a NZ code for HKG-LHR on CX. You may as well switch to CX now if you plan on flying to Europe via HKG.

Just read the article. I think it simply implies that the 772's going back to PVG are the same as those currently go to HKG. It doesn't mean these 772's will be taken from the HKG route.

Also what Luxon said about larger aircraft going to PVG was just going from daily 767 at the moment to 3 x 772 and 4 x 767 per week from July.

We now know for sure the first 789 will indeed go to PVG. Rob Fyfe's plan was extending PVG on to Europe once it gets 789 so let's see what happens.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 86, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11345 times:
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Quoting gasman (Reply 83):
Do you think this might in fact become something of a self-fulfilling prophecy? If you provide, and market a LCC service you will end up attracting only the LCC type of passenger.

Nope. I think the airline is responding to the market. I think that an airline flies (or should) where most of its passengers want to go at prices that most of its passengers can afford.

If more J class on TT routes were profitable, I have no doubt it would still be with us.

Quoting gasman (Reply 83):
There are other options in the form of EK and QF.

Indeed, and splendid they are, too.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 87, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11342 times:

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 85):
Just read the article. I think it simply implies that the 772's going back to PVG are the same as those currently go to HKG. It doesn't mean these 772's will be taken from the HKG route.

So do they have spare 772 capacity to operate both PVG and HKG?



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11334 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 87):
So do they have spare 772 capacity to operate both PVG and HKG?

Not an expert on aircraft usage but yes it was 3 x 777 and 4 x 767 a week a few months ago before they moved to daily 767. So this simply moves back to how it was late last year.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 89, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11309 times:

Sounds like an admission of failure with respect to Honolulu.

Air NZ had a monopoly, and restricted themselves to 2-3x weekly 763s without lie-flat beds or Premium Economy. They couldn't make their mind up about a product upgrade, and then decided to strip service levels down to Seats To Suit a la carte.

At which time Hawaiian swooped, with equal Business Class (but cheaper) and fully-inclusive Economy Class, at a lower fare.

And all of a sudden it turned out that with honest pricing and decent service standards, there was actually a big enough market for 6 weekly services (3 on the larger A330) which makes clear that NZ could and should have been flying a daily service.

So I presume that the return to 4 weekly 77Es to PVG means that Air NZ is admitting defeat on the HNL route and going back down from 3 class 77Es to 2 class 763s.


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 883 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 11290 times:

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 85):
Just read the article. I think it simply implies that the 772's going back to PVG are the same as those currently go to HKG. It doesn't mean these 772's will be taken from the HKG route.

Or perhaps he meant the HKG-LHR-HKG aircraft is now used on PVG.


Quoting xiaotung (Reply 85):
Also what Luxon said about larger aircraft going to PVG was just going from daily 767 at the moment to 3 x 772 and 4 x 767 per week from July.

And that goes to 4 x 772 and 3 x 767 from Dec.


Quoting xiaotung (Reply 85):
We now know for sure the first 789 will indeed go to PVG. Rob Fyfe's plan was extending PVG on to Europe once it gets 789 so let's see what happens.

Europe seems doubtful now. The previous AKL-PVG 0710 / 1415 PVG-AKL schedule allowed for this, but now the return is split Mo Tu Th Fr Sa 1415 PVG-AKL and We Su 2210 PVG-AKL (15 hours on the ground) continuing into 2014.

Could be the beginning of a gradual changeover to a late morning AKL departure and 2210 PVG return. Only one aircraft required instead of the present two.

PA515


User currently offlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 11284 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 89):
So I presume that the return to 4 weekly 77Es to PVG means that Air NZ is admitting defeat on the HNL route and going back down from 3 class 77Es to 2 class 763s.

Interesting you should mention that. NZ really need to revisit the S2S model particularly on these island long haul routes. VA recently announced that they will start to introduce free meal for all Economy cabin on flight longer than 2 hours and 45 minutes including DPS and HKT. It's still unclear whether they will include trans-Tasman flights. Even if not, you could end up on a Seat Only NZ through fare with the Tasman sector without a mean but with a mean on the connecting VA domestic flight such as AKL-SYD-AYQ. Isn't it really embarrasing for NZ when their closest alliance partner is moving towards full service while NZ heading the other way?


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 92, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11134 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
At the risk of repeating myself, this pleases me on many levels, not all of them directly aviation related. I think it is great that it will be in place in good time for 1915, the centenary of Gallipolli.

The code share application - Air NZ/Turkish - has been approved by the US DOT.

Here's the page - click on the pdf icon to view the ruling:

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2013-0080-0003

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 93, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10946 times:
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Some very good numbers coming out of Air New Zealand for March:

http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/document/pdf/201317/airnz.pdf

"Air New Zealand carried 1,362,000 passengers during the month of March, 5.2% more than the same period last year. Revenue passenger kilometres (RPKs) increased 2.8% on a capacity (ASKs) decrease of 1.2%. Group load factor was 85.8%, up 3.4 percentage points".

And an excellent profit outlook:

"Based on current market conditions and the trading environment, Air New Zealand expects FY13 Normalised Earnings before Taxation to be in the range of NZ$235 million to NZ$260 million."

This article discusses that profit:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ticle.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10879496

"Air NZ shares jump as it flags earnings to double

Air New Zealand's shares jumped 5.6 per cent after the national carrier flagged its annual earnings will more than double this year.

The airline expects normalised annual pre-tax earnings, which strips outs unrealised movements in derivatives used to hedge its exposures, to be between $235 million and $260 million in the 12 months ended June 30. That compares to the $91 million it posted in 2012, meaning earnings are set to gain by between 158 per cent and 186 per cent.

Air NZ said the forecast was "based on current market conditions and the trading environment."


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5335 posts, RR: 11
Reply 94, posted (1 year 5 months 20 hours ago) and read 10728 times:

Quoting PA515 (Reply 90):
Or perhaps he meant the HKG-LHR-HKG aircraft is now used on PVG.
Quoting NZ107 (Reply 87):
So do they have spare 772 capacity to operate both PVG and HKG?

772s are currently doing up to 5 weekly of the daily SFO services, that's where the 772s will come from to increase 772s to PVG again as the 744s go back on SFO. HNL also changes to a 772 in June. And YVR is up to 5 weekly in July August.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 95, posted (1 year 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 10658 times:

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 94):
as the 744s go back on SFO

the days of the 744 are now well and truly numbered. They'll be lucky to see out the end of next year I think. Once the 2 extra 77Ws arrive they will be gone in no time. They barely get any use as it is.

There are a few days in the next holidays when they are operating to both MEL & BNE on the same days, and they still see use when LA or FJ have flight cancellations but they are often parked up for weeks at a time.


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1703 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 10639 times:

Should NZ be worried !! that BA are going to put 2 A380's on the LHR-LAX ROUTE over the next year, seems to ring bell's when the announced the A380 on the HKG route and look what happened..... will this route cope with 5 airlines on it?


NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3005 posts, RR: 27
Reply 97, posted (1 year 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 10633 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 95):
the days of the 744 are now well and truly numbered


   Still by far the best PE in the fleet - especially the main deck.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 5
Reply 98, posted (1 year 5 months 17 hours ago) and read 10628 times:

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 94):
772s are currently doing up to 5 weekly of the daily SFO services, that's where the 772s will come from to increase 772s to PVG again as the 744s go back on SFO. HNL also changes to a 772 in June. And YVR is up to 5 weekly in July August.

How will NZ deploy 7- 77W's ? Three AKL-LHR -AKL , three on NZ5/6/7/8 and AKL-MEL/BNE-AKL most days plus a spare ??


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 883 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (1 year 5 months 13 hours ago) and read 10574 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 98):
How will NZ deploy 7- 77W's ? Three AKL-LHR -AKL , three on NZ5/6/7/8 and AKL-MEL/BNE-AKL most days plus a spare ??

Air NZ will need all seven 77W's most of the time.
Three on NZ2/NZ1 AKL-LAX-LHR-LAX-AKL Daily
Two on NZ6/NZ5 AKL-LAX-AKL Daily ex Tu
Two on NZ8/NZ7 AKL-SFO-AKL Daily

That allows Tuesday morning to Thursday evening downtime each week shared between seven aircraft during the peak season. And a 77E can be substituted on a Mo Th Sa NZ6/NZ5 or NZ8/NZ7 during the low months for any longer work.

PA515


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 5
Reply 100, posted (1 year 5 months 7 hours ago) and read 10409 times:

For the sceptics ...

This link shows ZB001 ( or ZK NZC ) in production. The action is starting !



http://www.flickr.com/photos/flightblogger/8679419302/in/photostream/


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12172 posts, RR: 17
Reply 101, posted (1 year 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 10352 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 100):

Can't see any evidence (signage, posters etc) saying first B789? Does look longer but photos can make something look bigger


User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7107 posts, RR: 11
Reply 102, posted (1 year 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 10302 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 97):
Still by far the best PE in the fleet - especially the main deck

Still the best leg room in the fleet too. In Y class that is

Quoting mariner (Reply 93):
"Air New Zealand carried 1,362,000 passengers during the month of March, 5.2% more than the same period last year.

I'm wondering if Standbys had much to do with this increase. If so, what will the effect be in a year?


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1703 posts, RR: 1
Reply 103, posted (1 year 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 10236 times:

Air New Zealand NW13 Long-Haul Changes as of 25/04/2013

Auckland – Honolulu 19DEC13 – 16JAN14 Service increases from 3 to 4 weekly (Except 26DEC13)

NZ010 AKL1030 – 2015-1HNL 763 27
NZ010 AKL1130 – 2115-1HNL 763 46

NZ009 HNL2130 – 0545+2AKL 763 1
NZ009 HNL2230 – 0645+2AKL 763 356

good by 772!

Auckland – Los Angeles

19DEC13 – 02FEB14 Service increases from 14 to 16 weekly (15 weekly in same period in NW12; Unchanged)
03FEB14 – 28FEB14 Service increases from 14 to 15 weekly (NZ004/003 operates Day 7 with 777-200ER)

Auckland – Shanghai Pu Dong Boeing 777-200ER operates on following days instead of 767-300ER (Overall service is daily)

30OCT13 – 15DEC13 Day 356 (Day 467 from PVG)
17DEC13 – 01FEB14 Day x147 (Day x125 from PVG)
04FEB14 – 23FEB14 Day x17 (Day x12 from PVG)
25FEB14 – 27MAR14 Day x147 (Day x125 from PVG)

Auckland – Tokyo Narita Service operates daily in NW13 season, increase from 5 weekly in NW12

Auckland – Vancouver

27OCT13 – 08DEC13 3 weekly (Day 357)
11DEC13 – 02FEB14 6 weekly (Day x2; Service increases from 5 weekly in NW12. Previously planned service increase in effect till 22FEB14)



NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1761 posts, RR: 2
Reply 104, posted (1 year 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 10183 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 103):
Air New Zealand NW13 Long-Haul Changes as of 25/04/2013

Interesting that AKL-HKG has no changes, the 772 still sits on the tarmac at HKG for 12+ hours each day. Wouldn't it be better if NZ80 leaves HKG a few hours earlier?

Any updates on the loads of this route after HKG-LHR terminated and the start of CX partnership?


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 105, posted (1 year 5 months ago) and read 10112 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 103):
Air New Zealand NW13 Long-Haul Changes as of 25/04/2013

Auckland – Honolulu 19DEC13 – 16JAN14 Service increases from 3 to 4 weekly (Except 26DEC13)

NZ010 AKL1030 – 2015-1HNL 763 27
NZ010 AKL1130 – 2115-1HNL 763 46

NZ009 HNL2130 – 0545+2AKL 763 1
NZ009 HNL2230 – 0645+2AKL 763 356

Once a year the Korufamily books an additional discretionary long-haul Premium Economy trip for a holiday where we can use our 2 (each) Gold Elite recognition upgrades.

We decided months ago to go to London to see the whanau, and to have a two week tropical holiday on the way back.

We really wanted to go to Hawaii, and were willing to sit in United Economy LAX-HNL so long as we got at least the Premium Economy we were paying for on the other sectors.

I asked my Air NZ insider for advice, as it was unclear whether the 77E would be retained on AKL-HNL-AKL or whether it would be back to the 763.

He warned me off, and told me that there is a complete failure of vision at HQ about that route. They've spent so long gouging prices by restricting capacity, that when Hawaiian entered the market as competitors they couldn't work out whether to use the 77E to offer a superior product in three classes to command a yield premium or whether to use the 763 and Seats to Suit to offer a cheaper, lower end of the market product.

He told me that he expects that Hawaiian will win within a year, and that Air NZ will simply exit and codeshare.

Anyway, I wasn't going to buy four A$5000 (NZ$6000) tickets for the privilege of sitting in Economy LAX-HNL-AKL.

So I just booked LHR-LAX-AKL, upgraded the nightime sectors from Premium Economy to Business Premier (which was the whole purpose of spending A$19,000 on an extra trip) and bought cheap tickets from LAX to Puerto Vallarta.

Honolulu is currently booming from Australia, and should be from New Zealand too. Air NZ's lack of a coherent vision is quite sad, and they are heading for an exit from another route that they have mismanaged.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 106, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10049 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 105):
He told me that he expects that Hawaiian will win within a year

Hawaiian loads have not been great so far - despite all the publicity... I don't think it's so clear cut as you like to convince yourself. Yes they are certainly competition but they also have a lot of work to do to make AKL work.


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5335 posts, RR: 11
Reply 107, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9999 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 103):
Auckland – Honolulu 19DEC13 – 16JAN14 Service increases from 3 to 4 weekly (Except 26DEC13)

NZ010 AKL1030 – 2015-1HNL 763 27
NZ010 AKL1130 – 2115-1HNL 763 46

NZ009 HNL2130 – 0545+2AKL 763 1
NZ009 HNL2230 – 0645+2AKL 763 356

good by 772!

HNL has never been a 772 in the NW, only NS.

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 103):
Auckland – Tokyo Narita Service operates daily in NW13 season, increase from 5 weekly in NW12

Pretty sure NRT was actually daily last NW.

Quoting cchan (Reply 104):
Interesting that AKL-HKG has no changes, the 772 still sits on the tarmac at HKG for 12+ hours each day. Wouldn't it be better if NZ80 leaves HKG a few hours earlier?

It could change yet plenty of time for that to happen but it would potentially be to close to CX117. Probably IMO stay as it is so that CX117/118 can still operate in the morning ex AKL to arrive in HKG mid afternoon. In the longer run with a potential South America service I do think the Asian flights will be retimed to mid morning departures ex AKL returning early afternoon.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 108, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10001 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 106):
Hawaiian loads have not been great so far - despite all the publicity... I don't think it's so clear cut as you like to convince yourself. Yes they are certainly competition but they also have a lot of work to do to make AKL work.

Good point, but it's hard to see how Air New Zealand can prevail now.

If they use the 77E year round they can probably command higher yields but will need to reduce frequency markedly outside the school holidays.

But if they use the 763, the only way they can "win" with Seats To Suit on 763s against all-inclusive 763s for Hawaiian is by undercutting them on price, which means that yields would probably not be worthwhile.

I think that Air New Zealand missed a major trick two years ago, when they should have gone to an all-inclusive model on the 77E.


User currently offlineaotearoa From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9956 times:

AKL HNL AKL looks to be a perfect fit-to-mission for the 787-9, especially in the proposed config. Perth also looks to be a better fit than the 777-200. Maybe these destinations will be slotted in to the 78 schedule as more frames come aboard.

Whatever the case, with 5 Longhaul frames arriving in 2014, the airline has a number of options. I would expect to see some route/fleet churn next year.....


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1703 posts, RR: 1
Reply 110, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9839 times:

I've just been speaking with my friend who works in the ANZ Travel Center in Auckland, and I asked him about the 787 to PVG next year because i'm looking at finally getting my trip to New Zealand,

Most of the people he works with couldn't understand why this is happening - the words he used was ' Why would they put a 787 on the Shanghai route when they can barely fill a 767 currently''!. unless they are shifting a lot of Cargo!?

He did inform of some more changes for 2014 -

Auckland – Osaka Kansai 4 weekly Boeing 767 operation scheduled in April 2014 (Service temporary cancelled in April 2013)

NZ097 AKL0845 – 1615KIX 763 x123
NZ098 KIX1730 – 0830+1AKL 763 x123

Auckland – Shanghai Pu Dong Boeing 777-200ER operation reduced to 2 weekly in April 2014

NZ289 AKL2300 – 0730+1PVG 763 x57
NZ289 AKL2315 – 0730+1PVG 772 57

NZ288 PVG1415 – 0545+1AKL 772 16
NZ288 PVG1415 – 0550+1AKL 763 x16

(What is going on with the PVG route here !!) - this is what the travel team are referring too. oh and hello 763 again...

Auckland – Tokyo Narita Service operates 6 weekly in April 2014, compared to daily in April 2013 (4 weekly 767 and 3 weekly 777)

NZ099 AKL0915 – 1625NRT 772 x4
NZ090 NRT1830 – 0920+1AKL 772 x4



NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 5
Reply 111, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9805 times:

Quoting aotearoa (Reply 109):
especially in the proposed config

....which is ?


User currently offlineaotearoa From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9773 times:

I'm sorry. I can't reveal the exact layout of passenger accomodation (LOPA) just yet. I can confirm what others 'in the know' have discussed here previously, and that is that it is not as premium class 'heavy' as the airlines 77W fleet.

My observations aboard flights indicate that while the 77W LOPA works well AKL LAX and AKL LAX LHR, this layout wouldn't be the best fit away from these routes.

As I posted above, with 5 new widebody aircraft arriving in 2014, and new route roumred, the airline will have some important decisions to make in regard to what fleet type operates each route. I sense the final 747 retirement is a no-brainier. The cost of retaining these old girls is high. Sad in a way, however as I move around the world, I get a real sense that successful airlines (and by that describtion I mean well run and profitable), are airlines that have already exited or are close to exiting thier fleets of 747-400s.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 113, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9699 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 108):
Good point, but it's hard to see how Air New Zealand can prevail now.

Except that Air NZ has just guided to increased profit and Hawaiian has lost money for the last two quarters.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 5
Reply 114, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9629 times:

Quoting aotearoa (Reply 112):
I can confirm what others 'in the know' have discussed here previously, and that is that it is not as premium class 'heavy' as the airlines 77W fleet.

Do you expect it to have about 10 less seats than the present 77E? When the 77E goes 10 wide what do you expect the total seat count to be?


User currently offlinealangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 115, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9517 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 108):
Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 106):
Hawaiian loads have not been great so far - despite all the publicity... I don't think it's so clear cut as you like to convince yourself. Yes they are certainly competition but they also have a lot of work to do to make AKL work.

Judging from the TV promotion in NZ just before Hawaiian started flying the route, Hawaiian is telling Kiwis that Hawaii is a good place to change planes for the US Mainland. So their planes would be carrying more than just passengers for just Hawaii itself. Whereas not many people on the AirNZ services would be doing a stopover in Hawaii.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 116, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9320 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 113):
Except that Air NZ has just guided to increased profit and Hawaiian has lost money for the last two quarters.

Yep, a bloody good profit considering most carriers from the region, let alone the rest of the world.

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 115):
Judging from the TV promotion in NZ just before Hawaiian started flying the route, Hawaiian is telling Kiwis that Hawaii is a good place to change planes for the US Mainland

Yeah they have a few mainland bound passengers, which makes their loadings for HNL look even worse. I'd also add that their product on the 332 is not actually that impressive when you're onboard.

As I said, they have a fair bit of work to do, and yes NZ is running them much closer on HNL than Kman will have you believe.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 117, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9299 times:

The above link should be to today's Wall Street Journal, BTW.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 106):
Hawaiian loads have not been great so far - despite all the publicity... I don't think it's so clear cut as you like to convince yourself. Yes they are certainly competition but they also have a lot of work to do to make AKL work.
Quoting koruman (Reply 108):
Good point, but it's hard to see how Air New Zealand can prevail now.

If they use the 77E year round they can probably command higher yields but will need to reduce frequency markedly outside the school holidays.

But if they use the 763, the only way they can "win" with Seats To Suit on 763s against all-inclusive 763s for Hawaiian is by undercutting them on price, which means that yields would probably not be worthwhile.

I think that Air New Zealand missed a major trick two years ago, when they should have gone to an all-inclusive model on the 77E.
Quoting mariner (Reply 113):
Except that Air NZ has just guided to increased profit and Hawaiian has lost money for the last two quarters.

I don't think that AKL-HNL is responsible for either of those performances, do you?

Until just over a year ago, Air NZ's Honolulu route resembled its LAX and SFO and YVR ones. It carried precious few people from Sydney, but carried significant traffic from Melbourne and Brisbane, neither of which enjoyed their own flights to Hawaii.

Air NZ conspicuously kept prices up and capacity down, but this left them vulnerable as a long-term strategy.

Vulnerable to Hawaiian Airlines competing on AKL-HNL - and Hawaiian did.
Vulnerable to another airline starting MEL-HNL - and Jetstar did.
Vulnerable to another airline starting BNE-HNL - and Hawaiian did.

All three competing services that I've listed are low frequency - 3x weekly at most. And all three are on A330 or 767 aircraft with the same mixture of recliner business class seats and standard economy seats that Air NZ uses.

Air New Zealand's 763 product does not outclass any of the competition, and their low frequency is comparable to the opposition.

As I have written they probably had two safer positions they could have taken in the market.

They could have upgauged to the slightly larger 77E, which offers genuine lie-flat Business Class and a Premium Economy class which the competition lacks.

Or they could have increased frequency to daily, which only confers the same total volume of seats they now share with HA, but which would have kept a trickle of passengers from Australia, attracted by the flexibility.

But Air NZ took short-term gain (minimised capacity to maximise yields) at the price of letting JQ and HA steal first their Australian passengers, and now at least half of the Auckland market.

And now it is very hard for them to know where to head. Is it worth deploying the 77E year-round to try to regain lost Australian feed? Can Seats To Suit work when Hawaiian offers a "Works" product inclusive with every fare?


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 118, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9245 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 116):
Yeah they have a few mainland bound passengers, which makes their loadings for HNL look even worse. I'd also add that their product on the 332 is not actually that impressive when you're onboard.

As I said, they have a fair bit of work to do, and yes NZ is running them much closer on HNL than Kman will have you believe.

Firstly, I should make clear that my antipathy to Air NZ management has much reduced and I actually have some time for recent decisions.

Secondly, I'm not so much discussing likes/dislikes as commercial sense. (Seats To Suit to Hawaii actually suits my family, because we can fly into HNL and out of PPT. But we are probably the only four Air NZ passengers who take advantage of that idiosyncracy).

Air NZ was the sole carrier on NZ-Hawaii for years, and for the last five years the strength of the A$ has seen Australia's outbound market to Hawaii explode, to the point where Australians now rank third behind Californians and Japanese in terms of tourist spend on Oahu.

Air New Zealand was well-placed in that monopoly, but with the excellent Mark Dunkerley at the helm it has been obvious that Hawaiian has concluded that Australia is currently a more buoyant market than the US mainland, and with its own high dollar New Zealand is another obvious target for Hawaiian.

My issue, as I have flagged, is the commercial one.

Air New Zealand had a monopoly, and they also had the choice between a JQ/HA-style 763 configuration or a three-class 77E.

But they have allowed themselves to be totally outflanked because they have chosen to stand still, and they now find themselves struggling to find any means of escape. In fact, they didn't just stand still. In implementing Seats To Suit after Hawaiian had already advertised for AKL station staff Air New Zealand effectively pulled down their own pants, covered themselves in tar and passed a big bucket of feathers to Mark Dunkerley.

Feed from Queensland and Victoria used to outstrip feed from the South Island, and it has essentially vanished since BNE and MEL got their own flights to Hawaii restored.

And passengers from Auckland and its surrounding regions now have an all-inclusive alternative to Air New Zealand's a la carte model, and at a lower fare.

This should never have been allowed to happen.

[Edited 2013-04-26 03:47:49]

User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 119, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9249 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 118):
Air New Zealand's 763 product does not outclass any of the competition

No one would ever say it did, but the aircraft size is right for the job and it is no worse onboard than HA. The only reason you care so much about it is because it directly affects your personal travel options. If they did the same on a route you didn't frequent, you likely wouldn't care at all, but because you personally want lie flat business class to either purchase or upgrade to you presume that

HAs choice of 332 was not because of demand, it was because most of their fleet of 763s are non-ERs and being replaced with the 332.

Quoting koruman (Reply 118):
Can Seats To Suit work when Hawaiian offers a "Works" product inclusive with every fare?

The market is talking. Passengers haven't turned away from NZ in huge numbers and they ARE chosing whatever product suits their needs better, NZ maintains better loads on a 763 than HA does on a 332. If they can fill it with local NZ traffic then they are doing well, they aren't having to sell cheaper through-fares from Australia, just point to point traffic which IS more profitable than giving discounted connecting fights trans tasman.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 120, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9235 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 122):
The market is talking. Passengers haven't turned away from NZ in huge numbers and they ARE chosing whatever product suits their needs better, NZ maintains better loads on a 763 than HA does on a 332

With respect, I think you're misinterpreting the figures.

You are saying that Air NZ is retaining its loads with its 2-3 times weekly frequencies now that Hawaiian has added 3x weekly in a significantly bigger aircraft.

My key argument is in point of fact not that Air NZ should have changed from the 763 to the 77E, I'm still undecided on that. (Northbound the 77E is only better if you are in Premium Economy on that day flight, and southbound while lie-flat Business is obviously preferable, if I was an economy punter I'd take the 2-3-2 763 over the 77E any time.)

No, my key argument is actually that Air NZ should have increased capacity much sooner from 470 seats per week towards the current 1500, rather than waiting for Hawaiian to seize substantial volumes of traffic which Air NZ should have owned.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 122):
If they can fill it with local NZ traffic then they are doing well, they aren't having to sell cheaper through-fares from Australia, just point to point traffic which IS more profitable than giving discounted connecting fights trans tasman.

Actually, in this case it isn't, not at all.

I've taken to buying AKL-HNL-AKL Business Class return at NZ$4200 (A$3450) and combining it with cheap Tasman fares, especially as the majority of Tasman flights are now all-economy anyway. I've bought eight of these combinations this year already. It's a bit annoying reclaiming my bags at AKL and then checking back in, but I'm used to it if I fly through Sydney anyway. And there is an unavoidable outbound layover at AKL anyway, so the two ticket model doesn't trouble me at all.

In contrast, Australia-HNL Business Class return cannot be bought from Air NZ for any less than A$6000.

So yes, conventionally it's more profitable to sell NZ-USA rather than Australia-NZ-USA. But this route is the exception which proves the rule.

(I suspect that that is a simple reflection of higher disposable incomes for Australian leisure travellers to Hawaii, and the fact that all Australia-Hawaii non-stop carriers are using that fact to keep SYD/BNE/MEL-HNL economy fares significantly higher than the slightly longer and more business-focussed LHR-LAX route.)

[Edited 2013-04-26 04:18:05]

User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1761 posts, RR: 2
Reply 121, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9244 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 114):
Do you expect it to have about 10 less seats than the present 77E? When the 77E goes 10 wide what do you expect the total seat count to be?

I have a suspicion that the 77E will get a larger PE section along with Y going 10 wide, the 789 may have a very small business and PE section, largely economy. In that case the 789 may have more seats than the 77E.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 122, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9225 times:

Quoting cchan (Reply 124):
I have a suspicion that the 77E will get a larger PE section along with Y going 10 wide, the 789 may have a very small business and PE section, largely economy. In that case the 789 may have more seats than the 77E.

I'm going to horrify Kaiarahi by saying that I love the Premium Economy SpaceSeat, or whatever it's called.

I find the 2-2-2 configuration on a 77W incredibly luxurious (on a day flight, that is LHR-LAX) to the point that I don't even use my Gold Elite status to confirm a standby upgrade out of it. I don't even apply for an upgrade.

But I'm struggling to see how the Premium Economy SpaceSeat fits in commercially on the 77E and 789 routes. It takes up a lot of space for pretty low seating density.

And worse still, for overnight flights the vast majority of passengers just want a marginally wider-than-economy seat with good recline, and the SpaceSeat basically doesn't recline at all.

In addition, on the day flights between Auckland and Perth/Honolulu, the SpaceSeat is liable to cannibalise Business Premier, because it's actually a nicer product unless you need to sleep.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 123, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9227 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 118):
I don't think that AKL-HNL is responsible for either of those performances, do you?

I think if it wasn't making money for Air NZ it would have gone.

Quoting koruman (Reply 121):
This should never have been allowed to happen.

Why? Hawaiian coming to NZ was close to inevitable, no matter what Air NZ had done.

Air NZ - in my view - should not attempt to dominate any market by throwing capacity at that market.

If it is leaving money on the table which others may pick up, I don't have a problem with that concept. My only concern is that Air NZ be profitable.

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-26 04:20:10]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1761 posts, RR: 2
Reply 124, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9215 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 125):
But I'm struggling to see how the Premium Economy SpaceSeat fits in commercially on the 77E and 789 routes. It takes up a lot of space for pretty low seating density.

From what I have read in these threads so far, it seems NZ is going to put the 789 on markets with lots of package tourists, backpackers etc who don't need SpaceSeat, and the 77E are going to markets with more premium demands but not as much as a 77W.

Perhaps the new configs would be:
A320: Y only
B787: PE SpaceSeat and Y only (no Business class at all)
B777: 3 classes

[Edited 2013-04-26 04:39:38]

User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 125, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9224 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 126):
Why? Hawaiian coming to NZ was close to inevitable, no matter what Air NZ had done.

You will recall that when Air Australia failed I wrote that I thought that Air NZ had a great opportunity to make HNL a profit centre by rotating 763 and 77E aircraft:

AKL-HNL-AKL
AKL-BNE-HNL-AKL
AKL-MEL-HNL-AKL

This was before Hawaiian entered BNE-HNL and Jetstar resumed MEL-HNL.

I'm not for a second saying that any passenger would route AKL-MEL-HNL. I'm saying that the aircraft could fly the morning AKL-MEL flight, then route to Honolulu and back to Auckland.

Air NZ would have ended up with daily flights from Honolulu to Auckland, which connected through to all Australian cities. And they would have got the three times weekly BNE-HNL and MEL-HNL flights that HA and JQ snatched from under their noses.

We have seen AKL-DPS open as a very low-yielding long-haul leisure route, and these routes would have been significantly higher-yielding.

At the end of the day, what is the role of Air New Zealand? Is it to be a service to get Kiwis to their holidays, or is it a business?

If like me you think the latter, then any potentially profitable routes between existing ports should be fair game, so long as the airline has traffic rights.

I wrote this to several senior Air NZ executives as soon as Air Australia crashed under the weight of its appalling financial foundations. But they just didn't seem interested.

And I find that really sad. Hawaiian is already increasing Brisbane from 3x weekly to 5x weekly during school holiday periods, and I just randomly checked some off-season flights in May and found that outbound there were 2 unsold Business Class seats (out of 18) and Economy was sold out. Inbound was similar.

That could have been Air New Zealand's market. And they blew it.

[Edited 2013-04-26 04:37:41]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 126, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9196 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 128):
At the end of the day, what is the role of Air New Zealand? Is it to be a service to get Kiwis to their holidays, or is it a business?

I think it is both. I think it is a business whose primary function is to fly Kiwis where they want to go - and where they can afford to go - and to cover as wide a spectrum of both as possible.

And there are - clearly - some Kiwis who would rather go to an Asian resort than an American one. They may not be as many in number, but they have a place at the table.

Quoting koruman (Reply 128):
I wrote this to several senior Air NZ executives as soon as Air Australia crashed under the weight of its appalling financial foundations. But they just didn't seem interested.

I'm with them.

I am always astonished when anyone here thinks that they can run the airline better than the people actually doing it.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 127, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9200 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 125):
But I'm struggling to see how the Premium Economy SpaceSeat fits in commercially on the 77E and 789 routes. It takes up a lot of space for pretty low seating density.

I think you can safely assume that the NG product on the 77E/789 will be different from anything already offered - otherwise the refit config wouldn't be so closely guarded. That goes for BP and skycouch too.

I'm going to try PE LAX-AKL soon, I've sat in the seats onboard but never flown it longhaul.

Quoting koruman (Reply 123):
No, my key argument is actually that Air NZ should have increased capacity much sooner from 470 seats per week towards the current 1500

That's a difficult balancing act when historically there are have been so few aircraft in the fleet to operate the routes they have been. A 772 by size and range is too much for HNL for 80-90% of the year, but the 763 fleet in the same time has been used to as the go-to aircraft for everything from SYD//SYD-RAR/RAR-LAX/NAN/APW/BNE/MEL/PER/DPS/PVG/NRT/KIX/PPT. That is probably more than anything the reason for HNL not being increased.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 128, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9205 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 129):
I'm with them.

I am always astonished when anyone here thinks that they can run the airline better than the people actually doing it.

I've never been one for original thought.

The idea of the triangle AKL-Australia-Honolulu-AKL route actually came from another senior Air NZ employee with whom I spent some time. I was thinking point to point return, and he showed me how much less efficient that was.

He explained the attractions in terms of fleet utilisation per 24 hour cycle, reduced crew layover duration in HNL, etc, etc.

But above all Mariner, where's the risk?

The airline already flies to each of these ports and has infrastructure there. If the experiment failed, they could have just axed BNE-HNL and MEL-HNL and rerouted affected passengers via the existing Auckland flights.

The chance has gone, rather like the opportunity to be Virgin Australia's Trans-Pacific partner has gone to Delta.

But I contend that Honolulu was a simple opportunity, with the smallest imaginable risk.

But instead of logic prevailing, dogma did, and as a "leisure market" it had Seats To Suit inflicted upon it, and the growth opportunities were left to others.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 129, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9200 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 130):
I think you can safely assume that the NG product on the 77E/789 will be different from anything already offered - otherwise the refit config wouldn't be so closely guarded. That goes for BP and skycouch too.

Now I'm stumped again.

I had thought that the 744s would exit the fleet, but that the 763s would carry on, perhaps with the 789 interior.

This would leave:

1) the 789 +/- 763 for medium to long-haul leisure,

2) The 77E and 77W for long-haul flights to North America and Europe.

I thought that within each of the two groups the seating products would be identical, but the number of seats would vary.

The 77W could therefore be used for NZ 1/2 and 7/8 in its existing configuration of 44 Business / 44 Premium Economy / 244 Economy.

And the 77E could be used for NZ5/6 and for Vancouver with identical seating types, but configured something like 26 Business / 24 Premium Economy / 244 Economy.

I think that it is reasonable to have different configurations, but that all aircraft ever used on any given route should have the same seating types.

But you seem to be saying that the 77W and 77E are not going to have that.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 130, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9178 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 129):
And there are - clearly - some Kiwis who would rather go to an Asian resort than an American one. They may not be as many in number, but they have a place at the table.

Indeed. I for one would rather relax in the Philippines than Hawaii, or any of the islands in the South Pacific. I have several trips planned there in the next few months, one as a stopover home from Europe.and another for a bit of good valued R&R.
I have to be honest when I say that Hawaii I will consider once other options have been exhausted.

Quoting koruman (Reply 132):
But you seem to be saying that the 77W and 77E are not going to have that.

I think they will also be refitted as well in the long run to whatever interior they finalise for 77E/787. They are likely to be here for some time yet after all..... the 77W IMO was always a kind of interim interior that had the 787s arrived to schedule would have been very different.

[Edited 2013-04-26 05:48:21]

User currently offlinekiwiflyer791 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9165 times:

HNL has always been a 767 market, the 77E has only ever serviced this route while covering for maintenance on the 767 fleet, this is the only reason you see an up-gauging on this route each year.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 130):
I think you can safely assume that the NG product on the 77E/789 will be different from anything already offered - otherwise the refit config wouldn't be so closely guarded. That goes for BP and skycouch too.

Wouldn't be too sure of that if i were you...some things maybe abit different but not wholesale changes.....


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1224 posts, RR: 1
Reply 132, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9158 times:

When is the first 777-200ER due to begin its refurbishment? Do we know which specific aircraft will undergo the conversion first? I assume this means that the last {and best looking) aircraft [other than some of the regional ones] in Air New Zealand's fleet will finally have their Pacific Waves removed.   


Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12172 posts, RR: 17
Reply 133, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9113 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 122):
Quoting koruman (Reply 118):
Can Seats To Suit work when Hawaiian offers a "Works" product inclusive with every fare?

The market is talking. Passengers haven't turned away from NZ in huge numbers and they ARE chosing whatever product suits their needs better,

Yes the market certainly does talk in regards to S2S. When you have passengers who are wanting a meal and baggage included and can get that service on HA, QF and possibly shortly VA for the same price as NZs 'seat' only price then NZ will end up loosing those customers. I rejected NZ on a trip to Australia last year for QF one way because I could get a meal and baggage included in the same fare as NZs cheapy ticket. Would have flown QF return if they had a service at the time I was needing to return. Sadly for me now QF is a choice on international services. I'm even considering QF and VA for a USA trip in June because its a cheaper option. Competition is amazing!

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 114):
Quoting aotearoa (Reply 112):
I can confirm what others 'in the know' have discussed here previously, and that is that it is not as premium class 'heavy' as the airlines 77W fleet.

Do you expect it to have about 10 less seats than the present 77E? When the 77E goes 10 wide what do you expect the total seat count to be?

We've all been told on here recently that the 77Es will be used for launching new long haul services which has me thinking that since those new possible routes (South America?) arn't proven yet for NZ that the 77E would have less premium seating to test the market. Once the routes are proven then NZ would need to seriously look at either changing aircraft or changing seat counts. Based on this I'm going with a guess of 20BP seats, 25-30Y+ seats with the rest Y (including cuddle class). The 77Es are also used for extra LAX/upgrading HNL/PER services during peak season so more Y/Y+ seating would be handy compared to BP

Quoting koruman (Reply 125):
I'm going to horrify Kaiarahi by saying that I love the Premium Economy SpaceSeat

On my first Space Seat flight last year I found the seat had plenty of room but a nightmare for trying to sleep/trying to get comfy, which is why its certainly better suited to day time flights

Quoting cchan (Reply 127):
Perhaps the new configs would be:
A320: Y only
B787: PE SpaceSeat and Y only (no Business class at all)
B777: 3 classes

Well the A320 fleet is already all Y but its interesting your guess in regards to the B789 fleet, but then again its clearly obvious the B789 is going to be used for tourist/Asia flights so maybe the Y+ seating could be sold as a regional style Business class which certainly should cost less then the normal BP seats


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 5
Reply 134, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9113 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 133):
that the 77Es will be used for launching new long haul services which has me thinking that since those new possible routes (South America?) arn't proven yet for NZ

I guess there is still plenty of time ( ~ 18-months) for the FAA to grant the 77E EDTO-330minutes.


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3005 posts, RR: 27
Reply 135, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9089 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 133):


Quoting koruman (Reply 125):
I'm going to horrify Kaiarahi by saying that I love the Premium Economy SpaceSeat

On my first Space Seat flight last year I found the seat had plenty of room but a nightmare for trying to sleep/trying to get comfy, which is why its certainly better suited to day time flights

To be honest, I haven't flown it since 2011 (before the pitch was increased), but I wasn't a fan of the sliding seat. If I take NZ PE these days, I go through SFO to get the 744 (making sure I buy a separate ticket for the North American leg, because NZ is gouging). Generally, though, I travel AC through SYD, because it's impossible to get *A upgrades on NZ (or *A redemptions). It's usually about the same travel time because there are far better AC connection times in YVR than through LAX/SFO (6-8 hours westbound).



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 136, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9034 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 128):
But above all Mariner, where's the risk?

The risk?

I've no idea if there is "a risk" or not. There are any number of things that Air NZ could do that may not - or may - be risky.

Whether they should be done is another matter. It is a question of priorities, what "they" - the people who run it - believe the airline should be. It's what they are paid to do and they have to answer to the shareholders. They have skin in the game.

We don't have that skin in the game.

We can lament that our favourite ideas were never picked up by the airline, but no one here - no one - can guarantee that our bright ideas would work.

I think they are doing small miracles with a severely constrained fleet (thanks, Boeing) and I might lament that they haven't changed the fleet plan to be less reliant on the 787, but switching to another fleet plan can be (a) expensive and (b) distracting - and I don't have the numbers they have.

At the same time, they have managed to keep that airline profitable and now thriving all through the GFC - which few airlines in the world can claim - and I'm not going to second guess that.

You want more HNL - I'd rather see them fly to KUL (or even a return to SIN) - for a potential hook-up with Turkish, but they are both pipe dreams.

I think it is one thing to have bright ideas - many here have a private fantasy airline, I do and it's great fun. The difference is that I don't expect my ideas to be adopted.

I'm sorry you find so little in the airline to appreciate, but I've become really rather proud of what it has achieved.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 137, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8903 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 136):
Whether they should be done is another matter. It is a question of priorities, what "they" - the people who run it - believe the airline should be. It's what they are paid to do and they have to answer to the shareholders. They have skin in the game.

I think that you have a bit too much deference for these people.

Air NZ has replaced a failed TV executive with a former soap salesman as CEO. Neither has any background to speak of in civil aviation, and neither would have been employable at such a level in any other reputable airline.

Luxon has already exhibited levels of promise which Fyfe never did. Fyfe produced illusory financial performances by shrinking capacity and operating in a domestic near-monopoly, and Luxon has inherited the additional outrageous good fortune of a monopoly to North America for the first time in half a century.

It is my style on this kind of forum to challenge, to thought-provoke. Half my blood comes from Yorkshire, what else could you expect?

But I post here again and again and retain top-tier elite status (earned, not just banked, although I have five years of that too). I do so because I love New Zealand in a way I've never loved the UK or Australia, and I feel a deep sense of loyalty to the employees of Air New Zealand who have delivered me such terrific experiences in the air and on the ground for four decades.

Criticism doesn't equate to hatred. But one thing that I have learned in my time in my own profession is that it is extremely dangerous to treat the people at the head of any organisation with undue deference. Decisions need to be questioned, multiple directions need to be assessed. And above all, good prior results need to be critically appraised, rather than lauded and rewarded with a blank cheque.

I was a bit disappointed earlier in this thread when Mariner compared this quarter's financial results of Air NZ and Hawaiian and concluded that this meant that Air NZ must therefore have a more coherent plan for the AKL-HNL route. I can no more see why that is valid than to say that since my daughter's soccer team won 14-3 this morning she therefore is more successful than Hawaiian Airlines and her judgment about AKL-HNL should be trusted. Even though she's 9 years old.

For several years, Air NZ's management has publically congratulated itself on being "nimble", yet for several years they have screwed up perfectly viable routes like AKL-SIN and LAX-PPT. And those years have been characterised by astonishing levels of dogma from the "Express model" to the decision to apply "Seats To Suit" to sectors like AKL-HNL and AKL-PPT where they compete with an all-inclusive airline which undercuts them on price. But hey, they are "islands", and "leisure markets" so S2S it is.

One day it's "Nothing To Hide". The next day it's "Seats To Suit".

But all along Santa is fortunately bearing gifts like a domestic near-monopoly and a monopoly to the US mainland.

This, of course, is a common phenomenon in economics. I was recently inspired to look into Margaret Thatcher's impact on the UK economy, only to discover that rather than confirming my long-held illusions of having delivered a golden age by taming undue union power she actually had a vast windfall of North Sea oil, which she essentially squandered.

And any assessment of the performance of Air New Zealand needs to reflect the fact that its domestic market and US operations are its very own North Sea oil.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 138, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8854 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 137):
I think that you have a bit too much deference for these people.

I think you're throwing words around. I have respect for anyone whom I think is doing a good job, no matter how much, or how little, their ideas equate to my own.

But they have to earn that respect and respect is not deference.

Quoting koruman (Reply 137):
It is my style on this kind of forum to challenge, to thought-provoke. Half my blood comes from Yorkshire, what else could you expect?

I am fully aware of your style, you've posted it several times. I'm not sure what it achieves but each to their own.

My style, in life and in work, is different - reason trumps argument and vision trumps both - just as my experience of the airline world - which spans more than seven decades over five continents - is different from yours. I was born - literally - at an Imperial Airways flying boat station in the Middle East. I grew up in first class because in those days there was no other class and happily my profession allowed me to continue to do so.

But I have watched that change and tried to work out why - and to embrace the changes.

The legacy airlines are under intense - and for some probably fatal - attack from the new low cost models which reflect the growing, intensifying egalitarianism of airlines. The socio-economic centres of gravity of the airlines that interest me are changing, too.

Quoting koruman (Reply 137):
I was a bit disappointed earlier in this thread when Mariner compared this quarter's financial results of Air NZ and Hawaiian and concluded that this meant that Air NZ must therefore have a more coherent plan for the AKL-HNL route.

You extrapolate. I made no such claim. I simply pointed out a couple of facts that affect both airlines, without reference to a single route.

The Hawaiian Airlines experiment is extraordinarily interesting and (I think and hope) may prove to be a winner, but that is not proven yet. In terms of return on a fairly massive investment, it is seriously under-performing.

Quoting koruman (Reply 137):
The next day it's "Seats To Suit".

Hooray. I love Seats to Suit.  

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-26 19:33:49]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 139, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8825 times:

I hate agreeing with Mariner. It takes all the fun away.

But I do half-agree with him about Seats To Suit.

I love the a la carte model when it includes the option to buy Business Class at a sensible fare level. AKL-HNL in Business Class has dropped to NZ$2100 and PPT-AKL has dropped to around NZ$1400, and you can mix and match.

That suits me, although you can't open jaw in/out of LAX, SFO and HNL any more on a return ticket as HNL is no longer "North America" but is now "short-haul leisure Seats To Suit".

The problem with Seats To Suit remains the removal of Business Class as an option on most of the flights. If it was struggling, that in part reflects that the fare levels were insane.

Even today, the "sale fare" for BNE/SYD/MEL-AKL in Business Class is over $1000 each way, while Emirates has year-round fares of $840 each way and much cheaper sale fares.

If Seats To Suit was the solution, surely "Works Deluxe" could have been "Business Light" at around a $250 premium over Works for a wide seat like Virgin Australia domestic, with 38 inch pitch and economy catering and beverages included.

Quoting mariner (Reply 138):
The legacy airlines are under intense - and for some probably fatal - attack from the new low cost models which reflect the growing, intensifying egalitarianism of airlines. The socio-economic centres of gravity of the airlines that interest me are changing, too.

You're right, and I know that you look into this more than I do.

I'm flying OOL-SIN in Scoot Business Class this week. My fare was somehow only $709 return, for a flight similar in length to AKL-HNL. My seat is as wide as Air NZ Business Class on the 763 but pitch is markedly less at 39 inches and I only get Economy catering and a single drink. And friends from work who fly regularly on Scoot OOL-SIN tell me that ScootBiz is always chockers, because the premium over "Seat" is only around $170 each way.

But still, A$709 RETURN in Business Class for a flight of similar length to AKL-HNL???????????

I'm just not sure that Air NZ's compared all the options for short-haul. I think their focus groups got a bit carried away with "Companies have an Economy only policy" and "flights to/from Hamilton, Dunedin and Christchurch only average a couple of paid Business Class sales per flight".

Surely the trick should have been to make Business Class on A320 and 767 aircraft far cheaper short-haul than it is in lie-flat beds. And to introduce a simple buy-up mechanism so that passengers on work-purchased or self-funded Economy fares are bombarded with offers to buy up to Business Class for around $150 per sector or $300 to Perth or Honolulu.

I would be sending every passenger booked into Economy on 320/763 services an email every week telling them that for only $150 per sector above the cost of Works they can trade up to Business Class, but that 7 days before departure those seats will no longer be available for "Buy It Now" purchase.

I just think that the price points were so absurd that the airline threw out the baby with the bathwater.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 140, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8825 times:

Quoting kiwiflyer791 (Reply 134):
Wouldn't be too sure of that if i were you...some things maybe abit different but not wholesale changes.....

I have already heard for multiple sources rumours that the skycouchs won't be on the 787. I'd like to think it was because they were adopting the 2-4-2 JL/NH config rather than the 3-3-3 QR config. I'm testing both 787 configs in June, it will make for interesting comparison.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 133):
Yes the market certainly does talk in regards to S2S. When you have passengers who are wanting a meal and baggage included and can get that service on HA, QF and possibly shortly VA for the same price as NZs 'seat' only price then NZ will end up loosing those customers

QF T-T loads are no better than NZs, and I agree to an extent, at least as far as what I personally want from an airline, but the fact is that NZs market share has grown, and passengers are still choosing seat/seat + bag more and more T-T and works passengers becoming the domain of interline tickets onward from Australia. Don't get me wrong, I have gripes with seats to suit too, but if people are still paying for seat/seat+bag and generating the same revenue as QF serving meals then they are doing ok.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 141, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8821 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 139):
The problem with Seats To Suit remains the removal of Business Class as an option on most of the flights. If it was struggling, that in part reflects that the fare levels were insane.

Or it may be the changing nature of the market.

I recall the shock/horror we all felt (I was in Australia then) in the mid-1970's when the airlines started doing away with first class perks on TT (that pitiful utilities bag) and then first class itself.

The start of the race to the egalitarian.

Quoting koruman (Reply 139):
But still, A$709 RETURN in Business Class for a flight of similar length to AKL-HNL???????????

Oh, Koruman - you may be a bit hyperbolic sometimes, but you're smart enough to see the reason for that.

Put it this way - if yours was a one-off you were lucky, but if all the Business seats are selling at that price then I would worry about Scoot because, as the actress said to the bishop - Yield sucks.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 142, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8819 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 140):
QF T-T loads are no better than NZs, and I agree to an extent, at least as far as what I personally want from an airline, but the fact is that NZs market share has grown, and passengers are still choosing seat/seat + bag more and more T-T and works passengers becoming the domain of interline tickets onward from Australia. Don't get me wrong, I have gripes with seats to suit too, but if people are still paying for seat/seat+bag and generating the same revenue as QF serving meals then they are doing ok.

I actually agree with you.

But as I flagged earlier, what I don't understand is this:

Why did the airline say "not enough people are buying $850 each way Business Class tickets in the A320, so we'll go all-economy"?

Why didn't they reduce the pitch (just like Virgin Australia's 737 Business Class with 38 inch pitch) and slash the fare levels for Business Class while adding in an extra row of Economy Class?

$850 each way Business Class on an A320 with 50 inch pitch didn't sell. But who is to say that $495 each way Business Class with 38 inch pitch and economy catering wouldn't sell?


User currently offlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 143, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8824 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 138):
Hooray. I love Seats to Suit.

If you were buying Seats to Suit at the last minute you would absolutely hate it. Explain to me why a $900 full Y fare from AKL to SYD one-way doesn't include a bag? I suspect only those buying heavily discounted fares would love this model. So each of the 14 or so Economy booking classes has 4 different products. Can they make it more complicated than that? Is this the so called confusion marketing?

On the contrary, VA's fare structure makes much more sense as in Flexi fares always include a bag and meal. And if you are an elite you don't pay for a checked bag even on the lowest fares. So the funny thing is for the same price across the Tasman, if you are VA elite booked on a NZ operated code share flight, you get more benefits than a NZ elite travelling on their own metal.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 144, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8842 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 139):
I'm flying OOL-SIN in Scoot Business Class this week. My fare was somehow only $709 return, for a flight similar in length to AKL-HNL.
Quoting mariner (Reply 141):
Oh, Koruman - you may be a bit hyperbolic sometimes, but you're smart enough to see the reason for that.

Put it this way - if yours was a one-off you were lucky, but if all the Business seats are selling at that price then I would worry about Scoot because, as the actress said to the bishop - Yield sucks.

Mariner, my respect for Singapore Airlines' management evaporated when they were thoroughly outflanked and outlobbied by Qantas as Air New Zealand sought Labour government approval for SQ to increase their ownership share.

Personally, I think that most of them make Rob Fyfe look like Gordon Bethune.

But the lead-up to the unveiling of Scoot was fascinating, because it shines a light onto the question of how to commoditise Business Class.

Were they going to use SQ lounges, like Jetstar?
Were they going to offer earning in their parent's frequent flyer program, like Jetstar?
Were they going to offer lie-flat beds, like Air Asia X?
Were they going to offer enhanced dining options in Business Class, like Jetstar?
Were they going to offer unlimited beverages in Business Class, like Jetstar?

The answer was eventually no to all of the above questions. (The fact that the first two replies were "No" raises the prospect of Mariner and I having another argument as to whether Qantas subsidises Jetstar).

You get a "domestic First/Business Class" seat with 38-40 inch pitch. You get priority check-in and boarding. You get 20 kg luggage. You get an Economy meal. You get a single drink.

But you pay a fare level for Business Class comparable to Economy Class on a legacy carrier.

I wonder whether Air New Zealand should have done something similar to short-haul Business Class rather than just discarding it from most flights.

But I think Xiaotung's post above goes a long way to explaining it. They want to be able to scalp the passengers buying the last few Economy seats, and so aren't prepared to offer a competitive Business class fare for fear of cannibalising themselves.

[Edited 2013-04-26 20:40:48]

[Edited 2013-04-26 20:43:16]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 145, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8778 times:
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Quoting xiaotung (Reply 143):
If you were buying Seats to Suit at the last minute you would absolutely hate it. Explain to me why a $900 full Y fare from AKL to SYD one-way doesn't include a bag?
Quoting koruman (Reply 144):
I wonder whether Air New Zealand should have done something similar to short-haul Business Class rather than just discarding it from most flights.

I can't explain it, I've never had that problem. I use Works de Luxe and I don't fly when it isn't available.

I had a couple of problems with Virgin Australia last time I flew 'em.

Quoting koruman (Reply 144):
I wonder whether Air New Zealand should have done something similar to short-haul Business Class rather than just discarding it from most flights.

Meh. As much as I'm an airline whore, at least for TT, I'll stick with Works de Luxe as my default.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 146, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8741 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 145):
I use Works de Luxe and I don't fly when it isn't available.

Oh Mariner,
You really do have a certain "je ne sais quoi", as Basil Fawlty said to Lord Melbury.

Everyone else buys Works Deluxe like a Burger Deluxe from Burger King.

But you get Works de Luxe!

Seriously, I don't get Works Deluxe, at all. It's okay on the A320, where you get the least bad seats.

But on a 763, with that lovely 2-3-2 Economy cabin, why would anyone opt to sit in the middle row of 3?

And what's the point at aiming your most expensive offering at your least frequent flyers? Non-elites might be impressed by lounge access and extra baggage and priority boarding, but the top two tiers of elites have that anyway. Similarly, Works passengers have the same IFE, catering and drinks.

As a Gold Elite I can never justify why I'd purchase Works Deluxe. If they really did make it a bit more Works de Luxe perhaps, but I would want:

a) 75% of the Airpoints Earning of Business Class, like Virgin's short-haul Premium Economy, and
b) 75% of the Status Points Earning of Business Class, like Virgin's short-haul Premium Economy.

But as Xiaotung has flagged, they can't do that because you can pimp even the cheapest non-flexi fare into a Works Deluxe package. Which, in a stroke of pure Airpoints genius, means that Works Deluxe actually earns:

a) Anything from 12.5% to 37.5% of the Airpoints earning of Business Class, and
b) Either 36% or 59% of the Status Points earning of Business Class.

But it gets even dumber and more self-destructive, if such a thing is possible in this realm:

1. A "Works Deluxe" Supersaver earns only 33% of the Airpoints of a "Seat Only" Flexi ticket!
2. A "Works Deluxe" Supersaver earns only 60% of the Status Points of a "Seat Only" Flexi ticket!

I don't know why they don't just steal Virgin Australia's short-haul fare model, as it is the same except with the dumb inconsistencies removed and simplicity added.

My kids are always amused by a shop called "The Stupid Factory" at Waikiki Beach. But obviously that must be where Air NZ acquired the masterminds who perfected the integration of Seats To Suit and Airpoints.

[Edited 2013-04-26 21:49:29]

User currently offlineCHCalfonzo From New Zealand, joined Mar 2007, 182 posts, RR: 0
Reply 147, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8757 times:

With CZ announcing that they will send an A380 to SYD from October this year, freeing an A330 and with the imminent arrival of their first 787 by the end of the year, what do you think the chances of CAN-CHC being announced soon are?

There was a comment recently in an article about CZ where they clearly said that they planned to launch CHC (WLG was mentioned too) and I have also read comments from Jim Boult (CAL CEO) saying that it was simply a matter of when not if CZ began flying to CHC. It seems like the ideal time to launch flights now, starting summer this year.



Piper power!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 148, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8733 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 146):
You really do have a certain "je ne sais quoi", as Basil Fawlty said to Lord Melbury.

Everyone else buys Works Deluxe like a Burger Deluxe from Burger King.

But you get Works de Luxe!

You and your trendy Americanisms. Isn't it enough I have to put up with the so-coy "rest rooms" on aircraft these days?

Quoting koruman (Reply 146):
But on a 763, with that lovely 2-3-2 Economy cabin, why would anyone opt to sit in the middle row of 3?

Because three is only two? I'm guaranteed that there's no one in the seat next to me.

http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/works-deluxe

"we'll guarantee the seat next to you will be empty, or if you're travelling on our larger 777-300 aircraft you'll be seated in our Premium Economy cabin!"

It works (de luxe) for me. And you know I don't give a toss about FF points - I give those I have to charity.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinedeconz From New Zealand, joined Nov 2010, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 149, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 8648 times:

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 143):
If you were buying Seats to Suit at the last minute you would absolutely hate it. Explain to me why a $900 full Y fare from AKL to SYD one-way doesn't include a bag?

but it does! Fare basis YWRKNF is $885 (online $875) plus $65.53 taxes and the next down BWRKNF is $ 715 (online $705) plus taxes. "WRK" denotes The Works!!!


User currently offlinenz2 From New Zealand, joined Aug 2007, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 150, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 8649 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 125):
Quoting koruman (Reply 125):
I'm not for a second saying that any passenger would route AKL-MEL-HNL. I'm saying that the aircraft could fly the morning AKL-MEL flight, then route to Honolulu and back to Auckland.

I work running ships between NZ and AU and the Pacific/Asia region. The biggest issue is to try to omit the low yielding leg from AU to NZ and we often look at triangulating services. Koruman your option does just that, omits the low demand late morning return flight from MEL so it is a valid idea

Quoting mariner (Reply 148):
"we'll guarantee the seat next to you will be empty, or if you're travelling on our larger 777-300 aircraft you'll be seated in our Premium Economy cabin!"

Honestly sitting next to someone for a few hours is not THAT bad? True it is always nice to have an empty seat but with good planning you can achieve that without Works Deluxe, but if the money is not important then it is your perogitive to spend the extra but I believe in obtaining the best deal for my company who pays the way. Also if you travel enought with NZ (and achieve G/GE) you get the PE seating option by default, thats why I target those aircraft when possible across the Tasman. If you are smart in how you book and consistenat in who you fly then you can get these benefits and still donate you FF points to charity. Chat to a consultant and they can point you in the right direction on how to get these benefits, its not too difficult.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 151, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 8616 times:
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Quoting nz2 (Reply 150):
Honestly sitting next to someone for a few hours is not THAT bad?

Nope. I don't care who I sit next to. I was making the point that the empty seat happens on Works de Luxe.

Quoting nz2 (Reply 150):
True it is always nice to have an empty seat but with good planning you can achieve that without Works Deluxe, but if the money is not important then it is your perogitive to spend the extra but I believe in obtaining the best deal for my company who pays the way.

As you say, my prerogative. It is simple for me, easy, I know what I'm getting and, more than anything, it is consistent.

Quoting nz2 (Reply 150):
If you are smart in how you book and consistenat in who you fly then you can get these benefits and still donate you FF points to charity.

I think you missed my point. I am not consistent in my choice of airlines - I am an airline whore, I fly as many as I can.

Air NZ is the default, but for my next trip, I'll probably give Qantas a go, I haven't been on them for a wee while.

And much as I want to, I haven't made it on LAN (for TT) yet, largely because of that foul early am departure, but I may do it coming back.  

mariner



aeternum nauta