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Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?  
User currently offlineavi8 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 670 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11395 times:
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So I was looking at the number of flights that each offered and noticed that AA has a much larger presence at a UA fortress hub when compared to UA's presence at DFW. Why is that?

Here are a few details to be observed: Date: Monday April 22nd

UA: IAH-DFW --- 5x ERJ, 3X CRJ 700, 1x A319 = 9
UA: ORD-DFW ---- 4x CRJ 700, 1x A319, 1x A320 = 6
UA: EWR-DFW ---- 1x E170, 1x ERJ, 2x 738, 1x A319, 1x A320 = 6
UA: SFO-DFW ---- 3x CRJ700, 1x 738 = 4
UA: LAX-DFW ---- 3x CRJ700 = 3
UA: CLE-DFW ---- 4x ERJ = 4
UA: IAD-DFW ---- 2x CRJ700, 1x 738 = 3
UA: DEN-DFW ---- 1x E170, 2x A319, 1x 737-700 = 4

Total flights: 39
Total mainline: 12
Total regional: 27


AA: DFW-IAH ---- 6x MD80 = 6
AA:ORD-IAH ---- 4x CRJ700 = 4
AA: MIA-IAH ---- 6x 738 = 6
AA: JFK-IAH ---- 1x 738 = 1
AA: LAX-IAH ---- 3x CRJ700 = 3

Total flights: 20
Total mainline: 13
Total regional: 7

Now looking at the data it is obvious that UA has more flights out of DFW that UA has at IAH, however the ratio between mainline and regional is different. Why is it that AA can sustain 6 daily mainline flights on the DFW-IAH route when UA can only support 1? I also noticed that the reason UA has more flights out of DFW than AA has from IAH is because UA has more hubs than AA. Could that be the reason why AA has more mainline at IAH due to less amount of hubs to funnel passengers?


avi8
72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11275 times:

Your premise makes no sense.
UA is bigger at DFW than AA at IAH and they UA has 50% more frequency on IAH-DFW while AA has 20% more seats.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11267 times:

Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):
Now looking at the data it is obvious that UA has more flights out of DFW that UA has at IAH, however the ratio between mainline and regional is different. Why is it that AA can sustain 6 daily mainline flights on the DFW-IAH route when UA can only support 1? I also noticed that the reason UA has more flights out of DFW than AA has from IAH is because UA has more hubs than AA. Could that be the reason why AA has more mainline at IAH due to less amount of hubs to funnel passengers?

Offhand I'd say that explains at least part of it -- probably not all, but at least some. On IAH-DFW for instance, UA has decided to go for frequency rather than mainline flights (as we often see these days) so it's not unthinkable that they would put less mainline here, but OTOH they offer total fewer daily seats (not to mention fewer F seats) as well.

So I think you're seeing comparative advantage at play here, where each is leveraging what it perceives as strengths and/or routes of emphasis (some routes will always be more important to you than others).


User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11224 times:

39 UA flights into DFW? Dude, that's one of they're largest outstations!


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2046 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11200 times:

Yes, what are UA's largest nonhub stations? DFW must be upthere.

User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11082 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 4):
Yes, what are UA's largest nonhub stations? DFW must be upthere.

I believe LAS and BOS are the two largest UA outstations. MCO is also sizable.


User currently offlineavi8 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 670 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11079 times:
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I'm sorry I did not make myself clear. I was actually referring to the amount of mainline flights and the fact that even though UA has more destinations out of DFW, AA isn't that far behind at IAH with the majority of the flights being mainline. My theory lies in that AA has fewer hubs to funnel passengers through so that could be the reason for more mainline flying. I wanted to see your opinions.


avi8
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2207 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11053 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 5):
I believe LAS and BOS are the two largest UA outstations. MCO is also sizable.

FLL has to be up there too if you include the Silver Airways flights.


User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1161 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11053 times:

Not to mention, UA also flies into DAL.

User currently offlinePHXFlyer16 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11039 times:

Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):

So I was looking at the number of flights that each offered and noticed that AA has a much larger presence at a UA fortress hub when compared to UA's presence at DFW. Why is that?

I think the answers is pretty simple: UA has more hubs right now that AA. Once AA and US merge there will be flights to PHX, PHL, CLT and potentially DCA (i'm not sure about perimeter and slots though).

Thus, UA likely has a larger presence is most major cities because they have more hubs to fly to. This will change shortly.


User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3160 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10992 times:
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What you're saying make no sense, as UA at DFW is larger than AA at IAH. But, even if your premise was correct, you would have to look at individual market size and brand loyalty in their respective markets. Plus, you have to look at which point of sale each airline is looking at. Based on the amount of RJs on the AA routes, they seem to be focusing on more O&D while UA wants more connections.


\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3507 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10896 times:

Should the thread title be

"Why is AA at IAH so small compared to UA at DFW"

Confusing


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10818 times:

Both airlines are simply flying to their hubs, and it looks like UA has more hubs.

User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10763 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 7):

FLL has to be up there too if you include the Silver Airways flights.
FLL is big for UA but not as big as LAS, MCO, or BOS which have more mainline flights.

Also MCO isn't a base but LAS and BOS are. My recent EWR-FLL flight had BOS crew on the 757.

[Edited 2013-04-21 13:17:30]


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10757 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 8):
Not to mention, UA also flies into DAL.

AA also flies to HOU...


User currently offlinecapejet From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10571 times:
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Does UA fly more people out of DFW vs AA out of IAH and how does AA do in Hobby Airport vs UA at Love Field in Dallas?

User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9661 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10559 times:

Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):
Why is it that AA can sustain 6 daily mainline flights on the DFW-IAH route when UA can only support 1?

One reason. southwest has over 25 daily HOU -DAL Flights. Both AA and UA lose money flying people between Houston and Dallas so both stay relatively small.

Also don't forget UA flies to DAL.

One final reason is the fleet planning at UA prior to the merger. UA dumped its 737 classics right after bankruptcy and outsourced the flying to E170 s andCR7s. UA had a shortage of Mainline narrow bodies. Even large airports in the center of the country went to mostly regional flying. Fortunately all the 737s that CO had and the new airplanes the airline is taking are helping bring mainline back to where it belongs.

[Edited 2013-04-21 13:20:49]


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10489 times:

First of all, your AA figures are wrong.

IAH-DFW: 8 times daily except weekends where there are 7. (S80)
IAH-MIA: 5 times daily (738)
IAH-ORD: 4 times daily except Saturdays where there are 3 (CR7) (switching to E75 on OCT 1)
IAH-LAX: 3 times daily (CR7)
IAH-JFK: 1 times daily (738)

Chicago and Los Angeles are with American Eagle. All other flights are mainline.

American Eagle also flies 8 times daily to HOU from DFW


This argument really has no standing, but I have found one thing quite interesting. On Dallas-UA hub routes, AA is larger than UA. eg: George Bush Intercontinental, Chicago, EWR, Los Angeles, DEN, all have a larger AA presence even though UA has hubs at the destination. I think this is due to UA reassures being too broad (ie too many hubs).


User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2123 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10467 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 13):
My recent EWR-FLL flight had BOS crew on the 757.

UA has a crew/pilot base in BOS?



Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2123 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10445 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):
Fortunately all the 737s that CO had and the new airplanes the airline is taking are helping bring mainline back to where it belongs.

I would love to see more mainline on DFW-IAH. It would be a lot easier for me to go home from college on the weekends than trying to squeeze in (literally and figuratively because I'm 6'2" and I nonrev!) on an RJ!   



Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10391 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 18):
UA has a crew/pilot base in BOS?

Sure do. There is a fair amount of mainline flights there. One of the few smaller UA bases that didn't get shut down during BK, along with SEA and LAS.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2123 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10350 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 20):
Sure do. There is a fair amount of mainline flights there. One of the few smaller UA bases that didn't get shut down during BK, along with SEA and LAS.

Is it for pilots, FA's, or both?



Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlineAAexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 635 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10319 times:

The reason AA is flying more mainline is because their scope clause has been far more restricted than UA's. I have not done the math, but of you adjust the number of flights to a seat count, I suspect the two will be very close.

User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10310 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 21):

IIRC, both. I could be wrong though. Definitely an F/A base.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10014 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):
oth AA and UA lose money flying people between Houston and Dallas so both stay relatively small.

I'd be curious to see whether the percentage of O&D passengers flying on UA/AA between IAH and DFW is noticeably less than the percentage of O&D pax on the other routes of the respective non-hub. I would imagine that the main purpose for those flights are to attract connecting passengers.


25 Post contains images TWA772LR : I would'nt be surprised to see a larger number in O/D pax as compared to other city pairs. Houston and Dallas have a huge economic cooperation, so, f
26 EA CO AS : I think we may have forgotten one major factor here; the Houston metro area is simply larger and more important economically than the Dallas/Ft. Worth
27 BC77008 : Me thinks you've just awoken a sleeping giant!!! LOL OK DFW area slightly larger than Houston (we're talking metro areas here, not city proper size)
28 Roseflyer : Wow I assume there is some sarcasm in there. A.net has a fascination with Houston, but DFW serves 30-40% more passengers per year than IAH and despit
29 TWA772LR : DFW also is more conveniently located in the middle of the country for connections than IAH, and PAX know that.
30 alggag : The passengers that make the route profitable and motivate WN to serve it with 25x are not buying $79 WGA fares.
31 Roseflyer : Although a little old, the last numbers I have seen have both DFW and IAH at around 60% connecting passengers each. DFW was 61% and IAH 59%. You are
32 usflyer msp : DFW doesn't have half the local domestic O/D going to another airport like IAH does with HOU. DAL gets some but thanks to the Wright Amendment the bl
33 EA CO AS : Well, you know what they say about assuming...because there was no sarcasm intended. Check out the number of Fortune 500 companies based in or around
34 Caspian27 : Of these cities, only SEA is a pilot domicile.
35 sonomaflyer : WoW, the idea of flying a CR7 between IAH-LAX or DFW-SFO is painful. Happy I flew a 763 today between DFW and SFO on AA; so much more comfortable even
36 TWA772LR : I did it DFW-LAX on a CR7 in Y+ and it wasn't terrible, even better than flying IAH-SNA on a 737, and I'm 6'2".
37 united319 : DFW is up there. In fact a few years ago UA was sending a lot of their new hires in other OZ (line) stations to DFW for training for the fact that it
38 Post contains links LAXdude1023 : It may be slightly, but the difference in importance is going to be small at best. If you want to look at fortune 500 companies alone as an indicator
39 AAexecplat : Seems like most here are stuck on th topic of frequencies. Allow me to calculate the seats for both carriers... Assuming the seatcounts published by s
40 FlyingSicilian : Thanks for showing some real "numbers"! While much smaller, what are the AA numbers for HOU-DFW and the UA ones IAH-DAL?
41 mesaflyguy : AA at HOU: 9 50-seaters to DFW= 450 seats/day UA at DAL: 7 50-seaters to IAH= 350 seats/day
42 777222LR : Ummm, UA flies to EVERY hub that AA does from IAH. The way you word it, you make it sound as if AA is flying to all of these places from IAH, thus has
43 4engines4lnghll : AA only operates around 4 or 5 flights a day to IAH from DFW. On weekends its no different.
44 FlyingSicilian : No, aside from the fact BA0197 is an AA agent at IAH, go to aa.com and type in DFW to IAH for tomorrow. You get 8 daily M80 departures 7am 9:40am 11:
45 4engines4lnghll : It changes quite a bit. At one point DFW-IAH was down to 5 flights a day.
46 us330 : No, what I was getting at was this: Having grown up in Dallas, I'm very aware that taking Southwest out of Love for intra-Texas trips is a borderline
47 EA CO AS : First off, the personal slam was uncalled for. No need to be petty and insulting. Second, I note from your profile that you're in Plano, part of the
48 Post contains images commavia : We have a winner. The reason why AA has a relatively large mainline presence at IAH - like many of its outstations in large metro areas - compared to
49 LAXdude1023 : I love how you ignored 2/3 of the factual data provided and zeroed on on Fortune 500 companies instead. Since you think number of fortune 500 compani
50 BA0197 : Thank you for your competence. We have NEVER had less than 6 daily departures to DFW (at least in the last 20 years). Except JFK, so not "ALL".
51 Post contains images 4engines4lnghll : I have a family member who works for AA and commuted out of IAH for 23 years and has actually just moved to base. All im saying is that there has bee
52 JDairCEO : It's aircraft size and lack of variety, plain and simple. To be competitive in the market AA has to have frequency but due to the market they also kno
53 rfields5421 : IAH isn't a UA hub - it is a CO hub that UA is working into their network. Many of the UA flights you mentioned out of DFW are UA flights (i.e. ORD),
54 IrishAyes : Also, don't forget that NK has recently entered in DFW-IAH. Not a huge game changer, but still relevant to mention. So, you call someone out for maki
55 BA0197 : I can confirm that last year (when we had 7 daily departures), we achieved an average load factor of 84.9% IAH-DFW. We were awarded an 8th frequency
56 tommy767 : What are you talking about? It's definitely a UA hub
57 rfields5421 : So you are saying that UA dumped all the history, load factors, marketing and frequency information that Continental acquired over the years. They st
58 FlyUS : BOS is a crew base for PMUA f/as only. No pilots or PMCO
59 tommy767 : Let it go. CO is gone. Well you are clearly living in denial because the airport is without a doubt a United hub. And as a matter of fact, it's looki
60 Post contains images Chi-town :
61 AVENSAB727 : True, but I have noticed that there are more sCO aircraft at IAH than sUA aircraft.
62 LHCVG : And ORD still has more PMUA Airbii and PW-powered 757s than PMCO equipment. Both of these are to be expected as the full integration is still ongoing
63 EA CO AS : How was saying that the Houston area was larger and had a larger economy than the Dallas area petty or insulting? Or personal, for that matter? Geez.
64 LAXdude1023 : And you ignored all the evidence that shows that Houston and DFW have almost identical sized economies on every level.
65 CODC10 : I see what you're saying. IAH was the primary east-west and Latin America hub for Continental, while at United it takes a role of less importance as
66 rfields5421 : I was mainly focused on the IAH-DFW and IAH-DAL traffic. The aircraft used, schedule times, number of seats - those are all legacy decisions based on
67 EA CO AS : More whining from small-town boy. That can be ignored. The evidence still shows Houston's economy is larger.
68 BA0197 : I'm not getting in this Houston vs Dallas debate, but just a question for you guys: What does population of Fortune 500 companies have to do with airl
69 LAXdude1023 : Thats the whole point Ive been trying to make from the get go. You cant take one factor and make an assumption (which some people cant seem to grasp)
70 EA CO AS : As I said earlier, it's not a debate; I merely offered up the fact that Houston's economy is larger and that they have more Fortune 500 companies as
71 commavia : "Small town boy" despite the fact that DFW metro is larger than Houston metro. So sad that some see the need to devolve these discussions into this k
72 Post contains links 102IAHexpress : Not sure where Houston's economy being one sided comes from? Oil and gas, Medical, port of Houston? Anyways, both are large markets. True. but that do
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