Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Fifth Freedom Within Europe 1960s-70s?  
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Posted (1 year 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 2074 times:

During the 1960s-'70s it was fairly common for a European airline to route flights entirely within Europe to make an intermediate stop in a country outside its borders enroute to the final destination in a third country. Since timetables from the era are mostly unclear on the issue...

Did European airlines typically have traffic rights between intermediate stops in countries beyond the borders of their home nation and final destinations in a third country (aka Fifth Freedom rights)...or was it very much on a case-by-case basis as to whether, as an example, Swissair could carry pax/cargo originating at ARN to HEL on their ZRH-ARN-HEL route?

What are some examples of 5th Freedom rights within Europe during the 1960s-'70s, for airlines based in Europe...as well as some examples of the lack of traffic rights between intermediate stops in country 'B' and final destinations in country 'C'?

On a related subject, outside of some flight sectors within West Germany, did any European airline(s) have Cabotage rights (i.e. an airline based in country 'A' being allowed to carry local/domestic traffic between points within country 'B') within other European countries?

(whereas topics of a similar title previously posted here at a.net concern 5th Freedom rights within Europe for airlines based outside of Europe, in more recent times, this topic focuses on airlines based within Europe, some 4-5 decades in the past)

[Edited 2013-04-24 20:56:46]

11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9531 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 1972 times:

ZRH-GVA was an "open" route where other European carriersw could carry passengers.

LH operated FRA-GOA-NAP and AFAICR with full traffic rights GOA-NAP

I cannot remember any cabotage route within Germany however, except in the early 50s but that does not count as Germany received partial sovereignty in 1955 only. Which lead to the founding of LH.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 949 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 6 hours ago) and read 1884 times:

Ever since the 2nd World War, the European airlines operated many 5th Freedom flights within Europe. This lasted well into the 1980s and ended with the liberalisation of European air transport in the early 1990s.

Some examples from memory:

Aer Lingus:
= DUB-MAN-AMS with BAC111/B732

Finnair:
- AY846 = HEL-GOT-AMS with CVL/DC9
- AY854 = HEL-HAM-AMS with CVL/DC9
- AY101 = HEL-CPH-AMS-JFK with DC8/DC10

LOT:
- LO256 = WAW-SXF-AMS-LHR with IL18 1x/week
- LO007 = WAW-AMS-JFK with IL62 2x/week

MALEV:
- MA641 = BUD-PRG-AMS with Tu3 & IL18

CSA:
- OK601 = PRG-AMS-JFK with IL62

TAROM:
- RO301 = BUH-AMS-JFK with B707

TAP:
- TP624 = LIS-AMS-CPH with B727

IBERIA:
- IB = MAD-AMS-HAM with D93

DANAIR = TXL-AMS v.v. with HS7

KLM :
- LIS-OPO with A310 (domestic cabotage),
- GOT-HEL with 737,
- ARN-HEL with DC9,
- LED-WAW with DC9,
- SVO-WAW with DC9
- AMS-ZRH-LIS-Latin America with DC10, DC8
- AMS-ZRH-MAD-Latin America DC8
- AMS-FRA-LIS-Latin America DC8
- AMS-FRA-FCO-Asia with DC8
- AMS-VIE-ATH-Asia with DC8

BOAC, Swissair, Lufthansa and Air France all operated similar European patterns.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9531 posts, RR: 31
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 6 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

Good, when you include intercontinental services, LH had several routes via European gateways to canada/USA via AMS, PAR and LHR. Services to Asia via ROM and ATH onwards to KHI/DEL/BKK/HKG/TYO

The AY flight HAM-AMS I used once myself and connected at AMS to the AY D10 service (HEL) AMS JFK

BOAC had several routes via DUS to services in Asia, flown with Comets and VC10s .

Quoting factsonly (Reply 2):
DANAIR = TXL-AMS v.v. with HS

That is neither a 5th freedom nor a cabotage route. The 3 allied powers + the Soviet union had the sovereignty over Berlin.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 2):
AMS-FRA-LIS-Latin America DC8

which was lateron flown by D10 as well (I was once re-booked on the LIS-FRA portion while TP was on strike)

NG had services from VIE via MUC to MIA with 763s.


Sure more will come up



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 hours ago) and read 1767 times:

What about BOAC which had flight segments within Europe? Could they carry traffic?

User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9531 posts, RR: 31
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 1708 times:

Too long ago but it might be possible that BOAC did not even have traffic rights on the segments LHR-DUS or other European intermediate points.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months ago) and read 1654 times:

Outside Europe, I once flew FRA-TNG-CAS with LH.


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineviveAF From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2001, 198 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1620 times:

One peculiar routing I remember was with Swissair, they operated a leased (British United??) BAC1-11 on MAN - RTM - ZRH daily service

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25638 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1565 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Thread starter):
Did European airlines typically have traffic rights between intermediate stops in countries beyond the borders of their home nation and final destinations in a third country (aka Fifth Freedom rights)...or was it very much on a case-by-case basis as to whether, as an example, Swissair could carry pax/cargo originating at ARN to HEL on their ZRH-ARN-HEL route?

Fifth freedom rights were common but they depended on the individual bilaterals so there were a wide variety of conditions. Cabotage rights were very rare. As already mentioned, a couple of carriers had rights to carry domestic passengers GVA-ZRH on flights that served both points. I recall TAP and Tunisair were two that did that.


User currently offlineAviaco From Germany, joined May 2012, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1545 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
I cannot remember any cabotage route within Germany however,

In the early nineties Finnair operated HEL-HAM-STR with full traffic rightsand with LH code share.
That was before LH changed its nordic preference from Finnair to SAS.


User currently offlineAviaco From Germany, joined May 2012, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

As far as I remember LH also had traffic rights between NAP and BRI in 1989 or 1990.
That was a flight originating at FRA:
FRA - NAP - BRI
There used to be local passengers on the NAP-BRI segment.


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1507 times:

Non-European airlines operated some interesting hopping flights within Europe too until the early 1980s. I remember JAL flying ATH-ROM-LHR, Pan Am flying IST-FRA-LHR, and Air India flying ROM-GVA-LHR.

The JAL flight was NRT-HKG-BKK-BOM-AUH-ATH-ROM-LHR on a 747-100. I remember flying it as a kid -- JA 8115 was the aircraft reg!

[Edited 2013-04-25 13:56:03]

Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
5th Freedom Flights Within Europe posted Wed Mar 3 2010 23:52:43 by JL418
Widebody 5th Freedom Flights Within Europe posted Wed Jan 12 2005 11:19:51 by TF-FIW
Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights posted Fri Mar 8 2013 20:28:38 by cx828
KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe posted Wed Feb 13 2013 03:31:03 by CrimsonNL
United's ATL Hub 1960s-70s posted Sat Nov 24 2012 07:11:38 by doulasc
Pan Am@SJU In The 1960s-70s? posted Fri Nov 2 2012 07:37:36 by doulasc
Air France In Miami In The 1960s-70s. posted Tue Oct 9 2012 18:25:42 by doulasc
The Fifth Freedom Flights.....question posted Thu Jun 21 2012 07:03:21 by heysfo
Chicago-MDW In The 1960s-70s. posted Sat May 26 2012 19:39:07 by doulasc
AC/PW SEA-YYJ/YVR 1960s-70s? posted Mon Apr 30 2012 11:57:31 by Tango-Bravo