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Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai  
User currently offlineJU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9495 times:

Hello everyone,

I couldn't see this topic posted anywhere, sorry if I missed it.

As of September 2013 Air France will send its A380 to Shanghai, it seems that this deal was struck during the French president's visit to China.

Flights will start on 2nd September 2013 and the superjumbo will operate one of the two daily flights between Paris and Shanghai. The flight will leave Paris at 23:20 with its arrival in Shanghai scheduled at 16:20, return flight departs at 23:20 and it arrives in Paris at 05:35. The 13:40 departure from Paris will remain unchanged and it will be operated by a B777-300.

On the same day, Air France will be discontinuing its A380 flights to Singapore, one of the six A380 destinations operated this summer (Johannesburg, Los Angeles, JFK, Tokyo and Washington).

Air France will inaugurate its A380 flight to Shanghai three weeks before Lufthansa's five weekly A380 service from Frankfurt.

Source in French:
http://www.air-journal.fr/2013-04-26...hanghai-en-airbus-a380-572521.html

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 598 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9391 times:

The LH group is the leading European carrier on the Europe - China route with a 15% market share, followed by AFKL (11%) and Aeroflot (8%). IAG has only a 3% market share.
By being the first European airline to land an A380 in PVG, AF wants to attract media's attention while its CEO stated he is not planning on opening new routes to China in the coming months.
Good move from AF but it is a disappointment that the SIN A380 service be discontinued. A side effect of the launching of KUL with a 772 a few days ago that may impact the loads to Changi ?



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineFlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 697 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9286 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 1):
The LH group is the leading European carrier on the Europe - China route with a 15% market share, followed by AFKL (11%) and Aeroflot (8%). IAG has only a 3% market share.

Sorry for the offtopic, but can you tell me AYs market share on Europe-China routes? Where do you get the statistics?


User currently onlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 598 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9204 times:

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 2):
Sorry for the offtopic, but can you tell me AYs market share on Europe-China routes? Where do you get the statistics?

Sorry, I meant to quote my source but forgot ! Thanks for the reminder.
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...irwaysoneworld-play-catch-up-99050
Finnair is just ahead of IAG with 4% market share.



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 799 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8994 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 1):
A side effect of the launching of KUL with a 772 a few days ago that may impact the loads to Changi ?

Or perhaps a result of SQ (relative) dominance on that route


User currently offlineManekS From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8801 times:

AF's original plan for SIN was to add 3 additional frequencies per week to complement the existing daily AF256/257 service. Instead, they up-gauged the daily flight to an A380 thrice a week. With the A380 service ending in September, I wonder if they will revert to the original idea of adding frequency.

I highly doubt the new KUL flights have any impact on this decision. After all, AF does not codeshare on other flights ex-SIN, presumably meaning its mostly point to point traffic. It could also just be a temporary suspension until they take delivery of more A380's. SIN requires two airframes - not the best utilisation of limited resources.


User currently offlinemiami From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 630 posts, RR: 40
Reply 6, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8768 times:
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Does anyone know how AF is doing in MIA?

Anyone think we can see a AF A380 at MIA later on?



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8622 times:

Quoting miami (Reply 6):
Anyone think we can see a AF A380 at MIA later on?

More likely to see Southwest serving free hotmeals on all its flights rather than AF sending the A380 to MIA ...


User currently onlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 598 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8419 times:

Quoting ManekS (Reply 5):
With the A380 service ending in September, I wonder if they will revert to the original idea of adding frequency (...)
It could also just be a temporary suspension until they take delivery of more A380's.

One or the other certainly. AF looks willing to develop in SE Asia. I can see them adding a 3 weekly frequency in addition to their daily one, with CGK as a tag-on (and from there, codeshare with their future ST partner GA to more destinations in the region and to Australia ?)



Quoting miami (Reply 6):
Anyone think we can see a AF A380 at MIA later on?

I doubt it and for many reasons :
- AF has a limited fleet of A380s. They are to receive one more later this year and we already know it will be deployed to Shanghai. For the 2 other superjumbos to be delivered in 2014, GRU and ABJ are reported to be under consideration.
- MIA is not a premium destination for AF. They are currently operating the route with a 747 (36J / 396Y) while their A380s are more premium oriented (9P / 80J / 38W / 339Y). Sending one of their whales to Florida would result in a massive increase in premium seats and in a sharp decrease in Economy, which does not make any sense.

FYI, here is the list of AF premium destinations (ie where they operate P class equipped aircraft) : Atlanta, Boston, Houston, Los Angeles, New York, Washington and Sao Paulo in the Americas - Hong Kong, Beijing, Kuala Lumpur, Shanghai, Tokyo, Seoul and Singapore in Asia - Abidjan, Abuja, Beyrouth, Douala, Dubai, Johannesburg, Luanda, Libreville, Malabo, Port Harcourt and Yaoundé in Africa and the Middle-East. You can bet without any risk that all AF's future A380 destinations are in this list, at least in a foreseable future !



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlinedavidho1985 From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2012, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8394 times:
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So Singapore will lose two A380 services within a short period of time: QF and AF....so sad

User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 865 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8362 times:

Quoting miami (Reply 6):
Anyone think we can see a AF A380 at MIA later on?

No, MIA is mostly a leisure market for AF, despite being a large market. Both B77W (with limited J Class) or B744 (large J Class) used on CDG-MIA route have no First Class.

At the opposite the AF A380 have high-yield cabins with a P, a large J, Y+ and of course Y. Focusing on high-yields routes with heavy demand.


User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8275 times:

The PVG-CDG route is now 2 of the busiest routes on the Sino-Europe market: 4xdaily, on a par with PEK-Moscow region, but definitely has more capacity. PVG is also the busiest destination for CDG in the far east region.

User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7480 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 1):
Good move from AF but it is a disappointment that the SIN A380 service be discontinued. A side effect of the launching of KUL with a 772 a few days ago that may impact the loads to Changi ?
Quoting SR4ever (Reply 4):
Quoting SR4ever (Reply 4):
Or perhaps a result of SQ (relative) dominance on that route
Quoting ManekS (Reply 5):
AF's original plan for SIN was to add 3 additional frequencies per week to complement the existing daily AF256/257 service. Instead, they up-gauged the daily flight to an A380 thrice a week. With the A380 service ending in September, I wonder if they will revert to the original idea of adding frequency.

I highly doubt the new KUL flights have any impact on this decision. After all, AF does not codeshare on other flights ex-SIN, presumably meaning its mostly point to point traffic. It could also just be a temporary suspension until they take delivery of more A380's. SIN requires two airframes - not the best utilisation of limited resources.

I believe the main reason for AF to stop the A380 service to SIN is the recent end of code-share agreement with QF ex-SIN to several cities in Australia. This was bringing a very significant traffic to AF on the SIN route.


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2169 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6908 times:

Quoting ManekS (Reply 5):
SIN requires two airframes - not the best utilisation of limited resources.

Well, they shuffle routes at every time they are back at CDG, so the route does not require exactly 2 aircraft, rather 1.5, or 1.3, or whatever the exact number would be. It takes about 30-32 hours to make the r-t to SIN with late evening CDG departure and early arrival 2 days later. But aircraft is then repositioned to a morning flight to elsewhere, while the departing evening SIN flight would normally be operated by a late afternoon arriving aircraft. AF has better use of their A380 than have them sit at CDG fro 6 AM to 11PM.
PVG operates within the same time window, so it is in fact similar in terms of aircraft time. Just that AF probably believes they can get more revenue by flying these aircraft to PVG instead of SIN.

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 10):
No, MIA is mostly a leisure market for AF, despite being a large market. Both B77W (with limited J Class) or B744 (large J Class) used on CDG-MIA route have no First Class.

AF 744 do not have a large J class... for a 747. But it is larger than on some of the 77W they operate (the Caraibes Ocean Indien ones, but they have 3 configs on the 77W, not sure which one serves MIA).

Quoting Azure (Reply 8):
FYI, here is the list of AF premium destinations (ie where they operate P class equipped aircraft) : Atlanta, Boston, Houston, Los Angeles, New York, Washington and Sao Paulo in the Americas - Hong Kong, Beijing, Kuala Lumpur, Shanghai, Tokyo, Seoul and Singapore in Asia - Abidjan, Abuja, Beyrouth, Douala, Dubai, Johannesburg, Luanda, Libreville, Malabo, Port Harcourt and Yaoundé in Africa and the Middle-East. You can bet without any risk that all AF's future A380 destinations are in this list, at least in a foreseable future !

Curious about a few more, notably: Osaka, Seoul, Dakar, Lagos, MEX... Are you sure about BOS? They tend to send the 744 there (at least they used to), so hardly premium....



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6828 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 13):
Are you sure about BOS? They tend to send the 744 there (at least they used to), so hardly premium....

Yes, this is correct. For the summer season, the 2 daily flights are operated by a 744 and a 772. The 772 is one with P.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7523 posts, RR: 43
Reply 15, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6732 times:

CDG-MEX appears to be an all-744 route this year. That means only Y (395 seats) and J (36 angle lie-flat seats).


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently onlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 598 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6493 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 13):
Curious about a few more, notably: Osaka, Seoul, Dakar, Lagos, MEX...

Osaka is operated with a 772 with no P. If you insist to travel in P, you 'll be routed via Seoul.
Seoul is included in my list already
Dakar is operated with a 772 or 773 with no P class.
Lagos is operated with an A332 (no P class)
Mexico is a 744 route as EddieDude stated. No P class.
I am afraid my list is 100% correct, Monsieur  



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 865 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6481 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 14):
Curious about a few more, notably: Osaka, Seoul, Dakar, Lagos, MEX... Are you sure about BOS? They tend to send the 744 there (at least they used to), so hardly premium....

No more P to EZE and SCL?


User currently onlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 598 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6409 times:

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 17):
No more P to EZE and SCL?

No.
It is a trend in the industry I believe. F/P is getting rarer, or, to be more precise, the airlines (including EK) are decreasing their First class capacity as the demand has become weaker ( a consequence of the global crisis I suppose). In the meantime they are improving their J class, so everyone can be happy...



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineJU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5417 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 13):
But aircraft is then repositioned to a morning flight to elsewhere, while the departing evening SIN flight would normally be operated by a late afternoon arriving aircraft. AF has better use of their A380 than have them sit at CDG fro 6 AM to 11PM.

Hmm could they fit ABJ between those times?


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2779 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5376 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 12):
I believe the main reason for AF to stop the A380 service to SIN is the recent end of code-share agreement with QF ex-SIN to several cities in Australia. This was bringing a very significant traffic to AF on the SIN route.

Very good point.

The importance of that feed becomes ever more clear for that reported AF meeting with MH last week.


User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4750 times:

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 17):
No more P to EZE and SCL?
Quoting Azure (Reply 18):
No.
It is a trend in the industry I believe. F/P is getting rarer, or, to be more precise, the airlines (including EK) are decreasing their First class capacity as the demand has become weaker ( a consequence of the global crisis I suppose). In the meantime they are improving their J class, so everyone can be happy...

I was surprised also of no more F to EZE and SCL. Regarding EZE, the crisis in Argentina does not help for sure.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 20):
The importance of that feed becomes ever more clear for that reported AF meeting with MH last week.

Absolutely. Also knowing that there does not seem to be some significant cooperation to Oz for AF with EY via AUH, unlike KL.


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2779 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4748 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 21):
Absolutely. Also knowing that there does not seem to be some significant cooperation to Oz for AF with EY via AUH, unlike KL.

I certainly find the world of partnerships and alliances too hard to understand these days. It would seem a great outcome if AF could co-operate with EY to Australia, unless they are looking at the SE Asian market.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9106 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4580 times:

Will they place the A380 on the HKG-CDG route?

User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4502 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 23):
Will they place the A380 on the HKG-CDG route?

I hope they will, though it doesn't seem to be planned
They could stop the morning flight and substitute the B777-300ER of the night flight with the A380. It would give them a more competitive product to compete with CX..


25 Post contains images Azure : Agreed. I wonder whether everyone at AF is comfortable with this alliance... In order to compete with EK on the Kangaroo route, AF /EY would need to
26 United Airline : Maybe they will place the A380 on the HKG-CDG route once they have more A380s?
27 Azure : This is a possibility which can not be excluded
28 AF185 : Though I agree with you on the "big picture", I am seriously questioning the point of the morning AF flight (AF183) from HK to Paris. All business pe
29 SR4ever : While we are at it, does anyone knows if all 388 of AF have been fitted with NEV-4 "full-sleep" seats in J? I have also heard that 388s will finally n
30 goldorak : No. Only the 2 or 3 last frames received. They will of course have it (the A380 has still many many years to fly with AF), but they won't be part of
31 SR4ever : Or perhaps they will get the same J cabin as that of 350/787... Or else, in view of the cabin width on the upper deck, an arrangement à la EY or AZ
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