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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding  
User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1478 posts, RR: 3
Posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13978 times:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...ed_boarding_Czc7AIeiirTOLhDsN4IwoJ

The man said several times the word bomb.
The guy can not help blurting out what is on his mind.
The trip was prepared beforehand, explaining his condition.

I think this time the pilot went too far.

171 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 802 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13967 times:

I don't. Everyone has this sense of entitlement and its being taken too far. We are far too concerned about being sensitive. It's time to stop. Ultimately it is up to the captain of the flight. It's also very unnerving to other passengers on board. I'm not saying its right or wrong. When someone like the captain has final say it's really up to him (her) and his (her) feelings. they are responsible for the aircraft. Time to accept that.

User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1478 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13882 times:

Quoting toobz (Reply 1):
I don't. Everyone has this sense of entitlement and its being taken too far. We are far too concerned about being sensitive. It's time to stop. Ultimately it is up to the captain of the flight. It's also very unnerving to other passengers on board. I'm not saying its right or wrong. When someone like the captain has final say it's really up to him (her) and his (her) feelings. they are responsible for the aircraft. Time to accept that.

Who has this sense of entitlement, the captain?

The airline was informed in advance.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13873 times:

Gonna have to agree with toobz. He has a problem so reasonable accommodations can be made and it would be an excuse if he was going to be in trouble with the law/security... that being said, accomodations only go so far and even if you do have a legitimate problem, you can't expect the carrier or others to have to put up with it.

Can't you take meds for tourettes? It's unfortunate, but really



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflyingthe757 From UK - England, joined Mar 2013, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13797 times:

This is a tough one.....

On one hand you have a customer who has done all they can to inform the airline etc about his condition

On the other you have a plane full of customers where the captain can either explain to them about said person which could cause embarrassment , but then you would not have them worried about him shouting and swearing on the whole journey, but it still would not be nice to be on a long plane journey with someone shouting something like that every time he had a tick?


Its tough!


User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1445 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13755 times:

It's Tourette's, it's a condition which can't be helped. It's like cancer.....would you forbid someone from travelling if they suffered some form of cancer???? No!

It's a unique condition but there you have it. I imagine most people these days are familiar with it. Chances are the person with the condition is mortified enough.

There are other conditions such as obesity which already have two threads running there....at least obese people are being given the option of purchasing another seat for a condition which 90% of the time is totally within their control!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13737 times:

Wow, what a pickle to be in for the crew.

I feel for the family.

How does bomb become a word he would blert out? Does he recognize flying > bomb?

I thought tourettes was linked to profanity? Excuse my lack knowledge on tourettes.

[Edited 2013-04-27 16:10:39]

User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 802 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13669 times:

Somebody with cancer would not be yelling bomb out loud. That's the difference. Is the captain supposed to make an announcement explains the situation? Then the family would also be screaming at the top if their lungs. it's a tough one yes but ultimately the captain has the final word. That is a fact. They are responsible for the safety AND comfort of all pax.

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7252 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13657 times:

We have seen these threads come up a bit now. Flying is not an everyday activity even though it is seen as one by most people on developed countries. There is no "right" to fly. The law is pretty clear on this, captain has final word on who gets on and off and unless his decision was completely arbitrary and capricious he is allowed to deny boarding of passengers for reason. Someone yelling bomb on a full plane is warranted of denying boarding IMO.


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineJpax From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13617 times:

Quoting tonystan (Reply 5):
It's Tourette's, it's a condition which can't be helped. It's like cancer.....would you forbid someone from travelling if they suffered some form of cancer???? No!

It is absolutely NOT like cancer, and it is offensive that you would even compare the two. As a captain, I would have taken the same course of action. 150 other passengers do not deserve to be terrified the entire flight because of a teenager yelling bomb.


User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1478 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13608 times:

Quoting toobz (Reply 7):
Quoting flymia (Reply 8):

Nobody talked about yelling.
The airline accepted the passenger knowing his condition.

When it is not for a defined safety reason it is arbitrary.


User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 802 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13498 times:

Jpax sport on. Nobody is cheering the captain on but he has a responsibility to make sure everyone is comfortable.
Mjo..nobody in reservations or check in can guarantee a seat on board. Only the captain and that has been repeated many times. You may not agree but that's ur issue.


User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13474 times:

Someone with tourettes is considered to have a disability according to the DOJ, that is covered by the ADA (american disabilities act). Now can this looked at as a form of discrimination? Even given the circumstances?

User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 802 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13390 times:

What a typical response infinity. Rules are rules whether u like it or not. As has been stated numerous times the captain has the last say. If he doesn't like the way u look at them they can deny boarding. This is what its come to. Except it. It has not been like that for a short time. It's been like that forever. Done. People in the US need to accept certain things and not scream discrimination all the time. And before I get flamed I've lived in the US for 25yrs. It's a sad state of affairs. May justice pay millions of dollars.

User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13269 times:

Yes the captain has the final say.. but his decision must fall within the law no matter what the situation may be..this involves someone with a disability its whole different animal vs someone screaming racial or religious discrimination.. I am not saying the captain's decision was wrong I'm just asking if it could be looked at that way...

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 13132 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 12):
Someone with tourettes is considered to have a disability according to the DOJ, that is covered by the ADA (american disabilities act). Now can this looked at as a form of discrimination? Even given the circumstances?

Airlines are not bound by the ADA, they fall under the Air Carrier Access Act. Unfortunately I don't have the time to look up what it has to say about Tourettes, but airlines seem to have more leeway. Plus, a lot of this hangs on the Captain, and minus misconduct, it's kinda hard to form a good case against his judgement... it was his job to ensure the safety and orderly conduct of the flight and I'm sure he did what he did in good faith, not just because he was a bigot or something

Edit: dug this up quickly:

http://www.tsa-usa.org/aPeople/LivingWithTS/Air_Travel.htm

"Indeed, there is only one reason you can legally be refused service by an airline in the US because of your disability. If you behave in a way that actually harms, or threatens to harm, others on the plane you can be refused boarding or removed from the flight. This rule applies to anyone who flies, of course, not just people with TS. If you worry that your tics might be misinterpreted as potentially dangerous (for example, if you have a thrusting arm or leg movement), that’s probably a good reason to contact the airline in advance to ensure that accommodations are in place."

This is gray area... I can see how saying "bomb" over and over could be seen as dangerous or threatening...

[Edited 2013-04-27 19:41:38]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 13037 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
Airlines are not bound by the ADA

After a quick google search, i found that in 2008 a federal judge ruled the the ADA applies to both airports and airlines


User currently offlineAv8tor From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 13012 times:

No doubt a tough situation, but I would have done the same thing that this Captain did.

User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1478 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 12997 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):

Have you really read that link?

Not a lot of gray in this area!
"The Seligman case also established that the ACAA applies to people with TS specifically, regardless of the nature or severity of their tics, including major body movements and coprolalia. Your tics may be annoying or even offensive to someone on the flight, but unless they are actually dangerous, you are covered."

There is even a Complaint Resolution Officer who has do be immediately available.

I am pretty sure that the captain is either a bigot or missed the training about TS.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12918 times:

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 18):
Have you really read that link?

Yes and again:

"Indeed, there is only one reason you can legally be refused service by an airline in the US because of your disability. If you behave in a way that actually harms, or threatens to harm, others on the plane you can be refused boarding or removed from the flight. This rule applies to anyone who flies, of course, not just people with TS. If you worry that your tics might be misinterpreted as potentially dangerous (for example, if you have a thrusting arm or leg movement), that’s probably a good reason to contact the airline in advance to ensure that accommodations are in place."

I think that's kind of gray. Gray enough to give the captain the benefit of the doubt until we hear more information.

Hearing "f**k!" all flight may be annoying, but I'm sure hearing "bomb" all flight might strike real fear into some people, and I can see that misconstrued as a threat. Now if you or I were there..... but we weren't so I guess it really doesn't matter. To me it sounds like the airline should send out a memo to its pilots regarding the issue, pull the captain aside and explain the rules and what he should do, and let him off without discipline. As I said, I'm pretty sure the captain was just doing what he thought was right, without prejudice, but we weren't there so it's hard to say

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 16):
After a quick google search, i found that in 2008 a federal judge ruled the the ADA applies to both airports and airlines

Hm, I've heard many times from this site that ADA doesn't apply to the airlines. Guess that's what I get from trusting a.net  



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2151 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12856 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 16):
After a quick google search, i found that in 2008 a federal judge ruled the the ADA applies to both airports and airlines

That's interesting, my manual states that the ADA does not apply to us and it has been updated fairly recently. Was there an appeal to that decision?


User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1478 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12854 times:

Once again:

TS fails under the The Air Carrier Access Act.

"The Seligman case also established that the ACAA applies to people with TS specifically, regardless of the nature or severity of their tics, including major body movements and coprolalia. Your tics may be annoying or even offensive to someone on the flight, but unless they are actually dangerous, you are covered."

"Coprolalia is involuntary swearing or the involuntary utterance of obscene words or socially inappropriate and derogatory remarks." (Wikipedia)

Unless you can explain how the utterance of "bomb, bomb and so on" can actually bring a plane down it falls under the above.

Another quote from http://www.tsa-usa.org/aPeople/LivingWithTS/Air_Travel.htm :

"You may find that not all airline employees are as aware of their responsibilities as they should be. Accordingly, if you suspect your TS might draw unwelcome attention from either airline employees or fellow passengers, you need to know and assert your rights."

The right of the passenger is mentioned here, not the right of the captain or crew to refuse the passenger the right to fly.

[Edited 2013-04-27 22:04:30]

[Edited 2013-04-27 22:05:33]

[Edited 2013-04-27 22:06:57]

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7252 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12743 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 12):
Someone with tourettes is considered to have a disability according to the DOJ, that is covered by the ADA (american disabilities act). Now can this looked at as a form of discrimination? Even given the circumstances?


The law is the captain has a final say. We have seen this again and again and we have yet to see U.S. federal courts making a serious ruling on this. For two reasons either it is not a big problem or the courts have agreed with the captains. I am not saying what the captain did was the right decision all I am saying is the captain or the airline won't lose in a law suit if it got that far. Most airlines would just want to settle anyway, it would be cheaper.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 14):
Yes the captain has the final say.. but his decision must fall within the law no matter what the situation may be..this involves someone with a disability its whole different animal vs someone screaming racial or religious discrimination.. I am not saying the captain's decision was wrong I'm just asking if it could be looked at that way...


Airlines are govern by the Air Carrier Access Act, FAR, the Airline Deregulation Act etc.. Congress has made it clear that airlines need to follow the laws they specifically make for them. The law says captain has final say and the decision is fine unless it was arbitrary and capricious. It is clearly not the case in this situation.
See a case named Rubin v. United Airlines. It is a 9th Circuit Federal case so it is not case law in all states but this is one of the more famous cases and when determining if a passenger should be denied boarding or kicked off a place the 9th Circuit pretty much said that Airlines have Common Law and Statutory Duty of Utmost Care of Passenger Safety. As long as the decision was exercised in Good Faith and for a Rational Reason, Not Arbitrary and Capricious, it is OK. This is clearly the case here. And keep in mind this is the 9th Circuit the most liberal circuit in the country.

49 U.S.C. 40127(a): An air carrier or foreign air carrier may not subject a person in air transportation to discrimination on the bias of race, or national origin, sex or ancestor.
(b) Permissive Refusal, “Might be inimical to safety”

There is NO liability unless the decisions shown to be arbitrary or capricious.
The FAA Act of 1958 states FAA act of 1958: A carrier may refuse transportation to a passenger or property when in the opinion of the carrier such transportation would be inimical to safety of flight. You can't really second guess this stuff. (if in doubt go around) Airline Captains are the last people who will second guess a decision for safety.

I think the captain had two ways to handle it. Let the passengers know someone on the plane might be yelling out "bomb bomb" but is OK, or deny boarding. I do see it as a safety problem to the passengers not only their comfort but their emotional health if all of a sudden at 35,000ft someone started saying the word bomb. People would freak out, people would want the plane to land, people might become violent to the man saying bomb. I can see a lot of bad things happening. It is not all about the plane crashing, it is about the health and safety of the passengers are a whole. The captain is completely responsible for that from flying the plane to deciding whether to land for a medical emergency.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
Airlines are not bound by the ADA, they fall under the Air Carrier Access Act.


  

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 16):
After a quick google search, i found that in 2008 a federal judge ruled the the ADA applies to both airports and airlines


What Circuit? At what level of that circuit. Might only be the case in that circuit. Congress does not like airlines having different laws in the different states hence the reason they made sure to take full control of airline regulation and state law almost never applies to anything relating to aviation safety or even business practices.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 20):
That's interesting, my manual states that the ADA does not apply to us and it has been updated fairly recently. Was there an appeal to that decision?


One federal case means nothing. Your manual is correct.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1478 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12672 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 22):
The law is the captain has a final say. We have seen this again and again and we have yet to see U.S. federal courts making a serious ruling on this. For two reasons either it is not a big problem or the courts have agreed with the captains. I am not saying what the captain did was the right decision all I am saying is the captain or the airline won't lose in a law suit if it got that far. Most airlines would just want to settle anyway, it would be cheaper.


Everybody can agree on that I think.
Nobody overruled the captain, the flight left without the passenger.

Quoting flymia (Reply 22):
Airlines are govern by the Air Carrier Access Act, FAR, the Airline Deregulation Act etc.. Congress has made it clear that airlines need to follow the laws they specifically make for them. The law says captain has final say and the decision is fine unless it was arbitrary and capricious. It is clearly not the case in this situation.


That is exactly the point:

The captain did not follow the Air Carrier Access Act.
The captain ruled arbitrary and capricious.

https://www.disability.gov/home/i_want_to/disability_laws/air_carrier_access_act_(ACAA)

It starts with: "§ 382.1 Purpose.
The purpose of this part is to implement the
Air Carrier Access Act of 1986 (49 U.S.C.
41705), which provides that no air carrier
may discriminate against any otherwise
qualified individual with a disability, by
reason of such disability, in the provision of
air transportation."

This a simple but all including statement, I did not find an exclusion for Tourette Syndrome.
I do not see in what way the ACAA is less far reaching than ADA.

If the captain was afraid of a panic he could have made an announcement about a passenger with TS.


User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2151 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12642 times:

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 23):
If the captain was afraid of a panic he could have made an announcement about a passenger with TS.

And had he done so, both the pilot and the airline would likely be facing a lawsuit for humiliating the passenger. Someone repeatedly saying "bomb" is not likely to find many crews willing to take them.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 21):
Unless you can explain how the utterance of "bomb, bomb and so on" can actually bring a plane down it falls under the above.

There are many kinds of danger on an airplane, blowing up is not the only potentially dangerous thing that can happen. There are conflicts in the cabin every day and it's not unlikely that this individual could have caused someone else to snap.


25 FCAFLYBOY : Oh my goodness, the level of ignorance being shown in this thread is embarrassing to mankind. DeltaMD90 - go and do some homework before stating your
26 anstar : You cant compare the 2. Cancer is likely not going to cause a disturbance to fellow passengers either. Very true , but did they know he was going to
27 FCAFLYBOY : I guarantee you the pax involved would have had no problem whatsoever with an announcement being made, if it meant he was allowed to fly as per condi
28 mjoelnir : So the Air Carrier Access Act should just be disregarded by aircrews and airlines? The Act is to make it possible for disabled and handicapped person
29 FCAFLYBOY : If they had been made aware, I assume someone at B6 had done they homework on the condition. If they had done so, they would of KNOWN how un-PC and i
30 flyingthe757 : I'm pretty sure some people would have been less then ok to be on a long flight with someone yelling bomb every few minutes or so, even after an expl
31 blueflyer : I think it may not be as easy as you think to get a judge to agree. Others may chime in with a more complete legal argument, but for the decision to
32 FCAFLYBOY : I think you may have misunderstood my point, which was about the guy involved, not the other passengers. However, I see no reason why other pax shoul
33 silentbob : And what kind pf person partakes in anonymous, online defamation of another person? Our company doesn't have a policy about making an announcement li
34 FCAFLYBOY : You are right, I only have the facts provided to go on. However it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it, so I'd appreciate it if you could add somethi
35 Fallap : Being terrified by someone yelling b Your Company? The Vatican Airlines? Sorry had to ask :b But sad that he was thrown off the aircraft, I have toure
36 EA CO AS : I'm a trained CRO for a major U.S. carrier. Allow me to enlighten you: 14 CFR 382.19: A carrier may refuse to provide transportation to any passenger
37 tonystan : It have you ever had cancer???? I'll speak FROM EXPERIENCE! Being 22 with such a condition changes a person and really allows you view the pettiness
38 tonystan : Have you ever had cancer???? I'll speak FROM EXPERIENCE! Being 22 with such a condition changes a person and really allows you see the peculiarities
39 Post contains images rwy04lga : Duct tape would cause less discomfort all around. Would the TS sufferer also be willing to endure discomfort in the form of his mouth being strapped
40 flymia : The airline would be sued not the captain, but if the case actualy got as far as trial I think the airline would win. We have pointed to the law. The
41 garpd : You're judging a person you do not know from far away with the benefit of having all the time in the world to consider the situation. That in itself
42 DeltaMD90 : Again, I'm sure the captain was doing what he thought was the best thing in his opinion, and wasn't full of hate, unlike you right now. You know, per
43 FCAFLYBOY : You have not read my post in response to yours I see. We are bit discussing racism/ bigotry here people. This is discrimination against a certified c
44 flymia : There are plenty of laws. Aviation has their own set of laws and in aviation the Captain has the final say and unless the decision was made in bad fa
45 AA94 : I think you're really off base here. I would be uncomfortable spending several hours in a confined space with a man yelling / speaking "bomb," or rea
46 mjoelnir : It is very clear to me that for most of your here on airliners.net the Air Carrier Access Act ist just a farce to be ignored if it will inconveniance
47 JHCRJ700 : Agree, Agree, Agree! Ultimately theres dozens of other people on that flight. I understand tourettes and know that the person can't help it, but at t
48 petrhsr : The passenger's mistake was being born with tourettes instead of spending his life gorging on KFC and Krispy Kreme and turning into a huge massive fat
49 canyonblue17 : First off, this is a very difficult call, and I agree in the end - it is the pilot's call. Second, I would highly doubt this decision was with arbitra
50 Post contains images FCAFLYBOY : Thankyouverymuch - glad to see someone else in the 21st century
51 FCAFLYBOY : Again though, why? What has this passenger done that would cause an unlawful or dangerous risk to this flight? By having a disorder? That's discrimin
52 steeler83 : This is a tough call, but I do have to side with the captain. As many have posted on here, he made a decision out of consideration for all on board th
53 flymia : I have already expalined twice what I would imagine the captain was thinking. If you don't think those situations are dangerous than I don't know wha
54 jagflyer : Having someone saying "bomb bomb bomb" during a flight is enough reason why this man was not allowed to fly. There are 100+ other passengers on the ai
55 btblue : Tourettes is a disability. The person who has it cannot control what they say. I flew home this evening listening to people talking loudly (a few seat
56 flymia : Even with the man's consent this is really sneaking into big law suit terrority. If I was the captain, FA or FO there is no way I would get on the PA
57 Post contains images EA CO AS : Tone it down. I take my responsibilities as a CRO very seriously, and while I completely understand your perspective were I called upon to exercise m
58 MeCe : Scary: No Disturbing : Yes I never mind a word out of mount from sick person. A less than average intelligence person can understand that guy is sick
59 FCAFLYBOY : Again, lawsuit or not, in the UK and EU this captain broke the law. Once you can prove how this passenger was a safety risk, then you have made a poi
60 flymia : Do you not read what I write. I and others have given you examples of how this man could have been a safety threat. Read previous post. As for the re
61 ADent : I don't understand how words can bring down the plane. Sounds like the guy will need a gag if he wants to fly. I would rather sit next to this guy yel
62 sankaps : This incident had absolutely NOTHING to with safety, period! No point using that much abused "safety" term over and over again, it just does NOT appl
63 EA CO AS : And you know this because you read the ground safety report filed by the company, right? Oh wait - you don't? You mean the captain actually COULD hav
64 davescj : As I have thought about this, let me suggest the following (hypothetical) situation: The man with TS boards, doesn't say anything, no announcement ma
65 sankaps : Spare us the sarcasm. The pax family had notified the airline WELL in advance and the airline should have been able to prepare for or handle ANY of t
66 kiwirob : Yet we allow people to board planes wearing full face coverings, I'd find it fare more uncomfortable sitting on a plane next to a faceless person than
67 sankaps : Even if we give the pilot the benefit of doubt here if he/she had not been adequately pre-briefed on this passenger and the background, the airline i
68 btblue : That's a good point but I see it this way. Allocate tourette pax a seat. Notify pax around him that he suffers from tourettes (the man will be famili
69 Post contains images blueflyer : You do realize that if airlines could plan for "ANY of the hypothetical safety risks" planes would never crash right? They know fuel tanks might expl
70 flymia : It is not about the plane crashing. Not everything is about the plane crashing. The mental health of passengers is imporant too. Again read some of t
71 sankaps : Blueflyer -- though you be be rolling on the floor laughing, you actually are making my point perfectly. If booting this poor guy off the aircraft wa
72 blueshamu330s : Interesting situation. It would appear the passenger and his companion did the right thing in alerting the airline and the TSA that Mr Doyle suffered
73 btblue : Reading that, it is very hard to disagree. Very eloquently put.
74 sankaps : Flymia, that is not the only regulation that can be quoted. You also have: Note the last sentence that many seem to have missed: The TSA says that "y
75 airtechy : Given that the airline had prior been alerted to this man's medical condition, could not the airline have anticipated a problem might arise and given
76 sankaps : The airline was pre-informed by the family. They could have discussed this scenario with the family. They may not have objected to a sensibly-worded
77 blueflyer : When one passenger decreases the safety level for all passengers, you don't send all the passengers home, you stop that one passenger from getting on
78 FCAFLYBOY : I was being strongly guided to agree with you until this point. Why on earth should he cancel a trip that had been planned for TWO YEARS for fear of
79 sankaps : You missed the point. Sending the one pax home does not eliminate safety risk from the flight altogether, because as you so eloquently pointed out yo
80 FCAFLYBOY : I was being strongly guided to agree with you until this point. Why on earth should he cancel a trip that had been planned for TWO YEARS for fear of
81 blueshamu330s : As you didn't highlight any of my previous post, I'm not sure how far I got before I lost your support, so I'll address the question you raise; why s
82 rwy04lga : After they've been personally screened in a private booth by a female TSA agent. To the satisfaction of the agent, the passenger is allowed to contin
83 zkokq : Christ, if Tourettes syndrome is enough for a PIC to feel uneasy, lets just forfiet flying altogether then.
84 mjoelnir : Some here still think no law was broken. A law was broken called ACAA. It is not just any law, it is a law about airlines and aircrews not being able
85 Av8tor : Uh.... Yes he can. "Under U.S. FAA FAR 91.3, "Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command", the FAA declares:[4] (a) The pilot in command of
86 EA CO AS : Again, as a Complaint Resolution Official with a major U.S. airline, no violation of 14 CFR 382 (the ACAA) occurred in this instance.
87 silentbob : No, it wasn't. You can keep beating a dead horse all you want, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation.
88 mjoelnir : I absolutely do not agree with you, airlines have bailed out of transporting passengers with TS before, usually it has ended in a settlement as mostl
89 twiga : The Seligman case also established that the ACAA applies to people with TS specifically, regardless of the nature or severity of their tics, including
90 Quokkas : The law that you keep quoting does include a provision for lawfully refusing service, as has been pointed out. As it happens, the airline did offer a
91 Schweigend : Thanks for providing clarity for the wayward.... Spouting typical Tourette's nonsense ("Quatsch" as Germans say) can be unpleasant to others, but is
92 flymia : 98% of all civil cases in the U.S. either settle or fail on their merits. Cases settling mean nothing and airlines settle because it is cheaper than
93 mjoelnir : Other forms of discrimination do occur, a group of moslems were deplaned in the US because they were praying in Arabic before the flight and passenge
94 Schweigend : Just saying that word is enough -- no matter the volume. And in the end, both he and the flight he wasn't on were safe.
95 mjoelnir : Just this opinion would make me hope that he sues.
96 blueflyer : Are you seriously arguing that screaming "bomb" in a terminal is typical of Tourette? The ACAA itself includes an exception on the ground of safety i
97 Post contains images EA CO AS : I don't know what else to tell you, then; disagree all you want but my extensive, annual training on the implementation of the very ACAA you keep thr
98 mjoelnir : If you have the training, you should know that this is a lame excuse. If you know TS this is a behavior to expect, he could have started of in the tu
99 Quokkas : Wrong. The very fact that there are exceptions prove that in some instances discrimination is lawful. The room for lawful discrimination may be narro
100 FCAFLYBOY : Sorry it was at this point in your post that I switched off. Stupid iPhone. I don't disagree th captain has the final say, I just don't think someone
101 mjoelnir : Wrong, the exception for safety concerns does not make the discrimination lawful. The exception is an exception, the principle is: discrimination is
102 EA CO AS : Wrong, the exception for safety concerns means it's no longer considered discrimination.
103 kiwirob : That might be the case in the US but it isn't elsewhere, I've followed many fully veiled women through security in many countries and never yet seen
104 skywaymanaz : I see a lot of responses in the thread here that some feel the crew should have made an announcement explaining the man's condition so it was not a co
105 flymia : No it would not. His expert opinion would most likely be successful. Look at the laws then look at the case law. Again your opinion is just that an o
106 jonathan-l : There you have it: that's the real issue. Is it normal that the word "bomb" ignites this sense of fright? Despite our moaning against TSA, we trust t
107 777STL : So you'd feel completely safe with someone randomly blurting out "Bomb!" on your flight? Remember, hindsight is 20/20, in this situation you would ha
108 sankaps : As stated by many, the crew could have discreetly advised the other pax / asked the family if it was okay to make a polite announcement so that other
109 twiga : Sankaps, I generally agree with what you are saying provided we are discussing relatively mild disorders of TS. But extreme disorders as I previously
110 Western727 : The notion that Ethiopian wouldn't do the same at, say, ADD, AF at CDG and Emirates at DXB is laughable.
111 silentbob : If he was yelling "peanut butter" or "potato", there is no problem. You can't yell "bomb" on an airplane, just like you can't yell "fire" in a crowde
112 longhauler : I have been following this thread with a lot of interest, as with most threads I often wonder what I would do in such a case. Removing a passenger is
113 EA CO AS : You're absolutely right. However the conditions under which he was cleared had changed between the time of the booking and the time he'd presented hi
114 mjoelnir : You seem not to understand about TS. Perhaps you should read up on it. There was no change, the word is random, it can be any word or words, that is
115 flymia : You keep on saying this but you are not looking at it carefully enough. Not even a Doctor would go on the loud speaker or tell passengers near by, "
116 mjoelnir : If you can predict what you think about tomorrow morning I agree, but could it be that what you read in the morning paper tomorrow morning could have
117 mjoelnir : I think that this talk about an announcement of his condition could not be done, is just an excuse. If you have a guy in a wheelchair, and you say, ev
118 flymia : I can agree with that. I am not saying it could not be done. All I am saying is no way would an airline employee do it.
119 jagflyer : For those of you who say removing the passenger was wrong and discrimination based on disability, how would you handle these scenarios: -A severely au
120 sankaps : Sure you can yell Fire in a crowded theatre as long as you announce / pre-warn the audience that this is about to happen, it is not a real fire, and
121 Kaiarahi : Thank you for your (as always) thoughtful post. I have refrained from posting on this thread, as I have a son with TS and the misconceptions posted b
122 ajd1992 : No, he has a responsibility to keep everybody safe. Comfortable is not the same as safe. Denying boarding to a guy who gave prior notification of his
123 777ER : Everyone needs to respect each other rights to their own opinions and stop name calling, flame baiting and disrespecting each other. Failure to stop w
124 Post contains images lightsaber : Would you , at the end of a long workday, want to be on a plane with someone who couldn't stop talking about a bomb? Its one thing to notify, its anot
125 frmrcapcadet : Lily Tomlin orRobin Williams could probably portray the pain and comedy of this situation. Longhauler showed a good solution.
126 sankaps : Even if the person's condition is known and explained well in advance, like in this case? Someone had raised the "shouting 'fire' in a crowded theate
127 sankaps : Yes, but you don't address the point about the passengers being advised in advance that this was the result of a known medical condition, and nothing
128 Western727 : Point taken. That's a critical detail I failed to notice earlier (had been under the understanding that the AIRLINE itself was aware and not that an
129 sankaps : An announcement was NOT made, Western727. The point is it could easily have been made (and should have been made given the circumstances of this TS s
130 richierich : How can you make such a guarantee? Do you know this man personally and have you asked him? There is a lot of room for interpretation here. We don't k
131 flymia : So if a man came on board who smelled like he has not showered in 5 weeks and slept in a garbage dump you would be ok with him being on the airplane?
132 lightsaber : Have you ever managed a large group of people? Its impossible to get everyone to ignore an alarm. In a fire alarm, they go outside even if told its f
133 sankaps : None of these examples have remotely anything to do with the case at hand. No point constantly comparing apples to oranges. Exactly. The "airline" is
134 EA CO AS : The company legal department would say otherwise. They do. The captain assesses the situation based on his knowledge at that time and makes a judgmen
135 sankaps : Do you know this for a fact? Even if the pax has signed a waiver? Or is this just your assumption? Well, it appears then the SOP has to be fixed to h
136 Post contains images lightsaber : How would a waiver stand up in court? By law medical privacy is a HUGE issue in the United States. My sister lost a malpractice lawsuit telling infor
137 sankaps : To handle the example you lay out, there should be ways for waivers to be drawn up such that the situation can be generically be described as being "
138 Kaiarahi : What on earth does that have to do with him having TS?
139 Kaiarahi :
140 EA CO AS : While not all airlines' legal counsel are exactly the same, they're pretty darn close. So yes, I do, especially because I'm required to know 14 CFR 3
141 sankaps : HIPAA regulations refer to disclosure of the specific ailment. As stated earlier, I am hoping someone can shed some light on whether a generic announ
142 DeltaMD90 : I agree that this should work, but I've heard of (unrelated) cases of people suing even when they do sign forms or waivers. IDK why, it's pretty conv
143 777STL : So, I guess that announcement would go something like, "Don't mind the guy in 25C while he screams "Bomb!" the entire flight, he's just mentally dist
144 Post contains links EA CO AS : You're splitting hairs, and incorrect. HIPAA violation cases don't have to involve disclosure of ailments, but any identifiable health information at
145 Kaiarahi : OK - so let's try some facts again, instead of ignorance:
146 lightsaber : While I didn't agree with much of you post, this part I do. 9/11 cannot happen again as passengers now know they will die in a terrorist event. Someo
147 sankaps : Your entire argument assumes the man was "screaming" bomb. As it has been pointed out several times, there was no screaming. It was a quiet mumbling.
148 lightsaber : But it might. Flights are too full to accommodate a larger number of people for one person with TS. I'm sorry. I wish it was a more ideal world. But
149 RussianJet : I doubt anyone needed to be 'terrified' by this guy. Any passengers concerned could be spoken to, and the situation explained. It's harsh to boot him
150 sankaps : Me too. Cheers, Sankaps.
151 777STL : Exactly. Post 9/11, people, that is pax, aren't taking any chances. I do believe something would have happened to him at the hands of other pax had h
152 Kaiarahi : A few thoughts: - The pax successfully cleared security, despite verbal tics of "bomb" on his way through. - Objectively, he himself was no threat to
153 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : This was the point I was trying to make earlier before getting flamed. There obviously are a lot of people on both sides of the issue and there are m
154 mjoelnir : In this thread I got really angry. I was admonished: No name calling and my post removed. But I would like a definition of name calling. We were talk
155 Post contains images EA CO AS : You? Seriously? Naah... Can you tell me what this most recent post has to do with the topic?
156 flymia : An Airline does not need to give any idication that they might not let you or anyone else board. You heard from an aviation professional who knows th
157 mjoelnir : You have the reference to what post I am referring to, if you find that post acceptable, than I think you are in the wrong profession. I have in my f
158 EA CO AS : UPDATE This topic actually motivated me to make this the subject of discussion at my company with many our front-line Lead Agents, most of whom are al
159 sankaps : Bravo, EA CO AS, for not only actually taking the trouble to raise this issue in your internal company training / discussions, but for also being bra
160 blueflyer : Very interesting. Thank you for the update. Will you mind a few follow-up questions to enlighten my own train of thoughts? Will the CRO communicate w
161 flymia : From the Federal U.S. case law I have studied in Aviation Law I believe the burden is high to show that the captain made a mistake and the airline wo
162 EA CO AS : Yes, it's the CRO's job to advise the captain about a potential breach of 14 CFR 382, however the captain has final authority. Yes. By law each carri
163 EA CO AS : That was my thought at first as well, however reflecting on it - since there was no credible threat behind the word - you have to remove that manifes
164 blueflyer : I'm happy to leave the decision to the professionals, but as a mental exercise, this is the part I have a hard time wrapping my mind around. On the o
165 mjoelnir : EA CO AS thank you for reconsidering your position. Live for a person with TS can be frustrating enough without being denied the possibility to travel
166 EA CO AS : Agents are trained to inform the customer they have the right to have a CRO present, however in practice most carriers will automatically involve the
167 mjoelnir : Thank you for the answer.
168 Kaiarahi : Thank you very much for taking the time to explore this issue further. As I noted earlier in this thread, I have a son who suffers from TS (and is a
169 justplanenutz : I too would like to thank you for your informative posts. I have a quadriplegic child and appreciate both your posts about the CRO process and the kn
170 usa330300 : The airline being informed in advance does not constitute a free pass for this individual to be disruptive, and even threatening to the public at lar
171 sankaps : Oh bother! Clearly you have not taken the trouble to read this thread properly, especially the last few posts that negate this very point that you ar
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