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DL Summer 2013 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type  
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 755 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 19153 times:

I've been trying to create one or two of these threads a year for each of the US Legacy Carriers. I pick a day (usually a Thursday since that's a fairly "typical" day for air traffic), go through the schedules for US, AA, DL, and UA, and compile the results of how many departures there are at each hub/focus city on each aircraft type. I think it is extremely interesting to see how the airlines allocate fleet resources among their major stations, and to see how things change as mergers occur and as the economy changes.

This is the thread for the 2013 summer schedule of Delta Air Lines, and the date I picked is Thursday, June 20, 2013. I have already posted the threads for UA, AA, and US, so this is the last one I'm planning on posting for now. I will include details for all stations with 50+ departures (and possibly some stations that just missed the cutoff but are significant for the airline). Note that the schedules will vary from day to day and from week to week, but these threads should be a fairly accurate snapshot of what you could expect to see if you spent all day at one of the following airports this summer.

For simplicity's sake (and to be consistent with the previous threads) I will group aircraft by body type - i.e. I will not split out 763/763ER, etc. Also, to be consistent, I will use the same codes across all threads, even if the airlines use different variations in their own schedules (e.g. 73W vs. 73G).

One final note: I did not count the E70 and E75 as mainline aircraft, but I did include a parenthetical total % mainline including the E-Jest since many people consider them to be on par with mainline aircraft from a comfort perspective.


ATL

CR2: 237
CR7: 36
CR9: 43
E75: 3
D95: 39
319: 41
320: 43
M88: 231
M90: 82
73G: 20
738: 33
752: 158
753: 11
763: 25
764: 8
332: 4
333: 5
77L: 3
744: 1

Total: 1023
68.8% mainline (69.1% including E75)


DTW

ER4: 38
CR2: 238
CR7: 34
CR9: 40
E70: 3
E75: 9
D95: 11
319: 27
320: 27
M88: 32
M90: 9
738: 12
752: 26
753: 7
763: 8
764: 2
333: 5
777: 4
744: 2

Total: 534
32.2% mainline (34.4% including E70/E75)


MSP

CR2: 158
CR7: 9
CR9: 52
E70: 10
E75: 53
319: 23
320: 36
M88: 8
M90: 53
738: 20
752: 32
753: 8
763: 5
764: 1
332: 2
333: 2
77L: 1

Total: 473
40.4% mainline (53.7% including E70/E75)


SLC

EM2: 21
CR2: 66
CR7: 36
CR9: 46
319: 22
320: 38
M90: 1
738: 19
752: 23
753: 2
763: 2
332: 1

Total: 277
39.0% mainline


LGA

ER4: 32
CR2: 4
CR7: 71
E70: 32
E75: 67
319: 12
320: 15
M88: 29
738: 4
752: 9

Total: 275
25.1% mainline (61.1% including E70/E75)


JFK

ER4: 26
CR2: 17
CR7: 4
CR9: 27
319: 7
320: 2
M88: 4
73G: 2
738: 36
752: 24
763: 17
764: 9
332: 1
333: 3
744: 2

Total: 181
59.1% mainline


LAX

CR7: 21
CR9: 19
319: 6
320: 7
738: 17
752: 22
753: 3
763: 15
77L: 3

Total: 113
64.6% mainline


CVG

ER4: 6
CR2: 50
CR7: 9
CR9: 21
320: 7
M88: 7
738: 9
752: 2
763: 1

Total: 112
23.2% mainline


MEM

ER4: 5
CR2: 44
CR7: 4
CR9: 14
D95: 2
319: 7
320: 2
M88: 11
738: 4

Total: 93
28.0% mainline


BOS

ER4: 3
CR2: 5
CR7: 5
CR9: 5
E70: 3
E75: 15
319: 7
320: 7
M88: 3
738: 11
752: 8
763: 1
332: 1
333: 1

Total: 75
52.0% mainline (76.0% including E70/E75)


ORD

ER4: 1
CR2: 5
CR7: 1
CR9: 15
E70: 2
E75: 13
D95: 7
319: 3
320: 1
M88: 4
M90: 5
752: 1

Total: 58
36.2% mainline (62.1% including E70/E75)


RDU:

ER4: 7
CR2: 9
CR7: 18
CR9: 2
E70: 1
E75: 3
320: 2
M88: 8
M90: 1
738: 2
752: 3

Total: 54
29.6% mainline (37.0% including E70/E75)


DCA

CR2: 1
CR7: 1
CR9: 10
E70: 11
E75: 2
319: 1
320: 3
M88: 13
M90: 4
738: 3
752: 4

Total: 53
52.8% mainline (77.4% including E70/E75)


MCO

ER4: 1
CR7: 1
320: 3
M88: 12
M90: 2
738: 7
752: 23
753: 3

Total: 52
96.2% mainline


Also, I feel like I should probably include SEA because of its importance to DL as an international gateway, even thought it falls just shy of the 50-departure mark.

SEA

CR7: 1
319: 2
320: 1
738: 5
752: 19
753: 5
763: 10
333: 2
744: 1

Total: 46 (97.8% mainline)


SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9508 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 19158 times:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
ATL

CR2: 237
CR7: 36
CR9: 43
E75: 3
D95: 39
319: 41
320: 43
M88: 231
M90: 82
73G: 20
738: 33
752: 158
753: 11
763: 25
764: 8
332: 4
333: 5
77L: 3
744: 1

Total: 1023
68.8% mainline (69.1% including E75)

jeesh. Just an amazing amount of capacity. Also the largest station for DC9, 319, 320, 330, 763, 753,752, M88,M90 and 73W flying so basically every type beside the 738, 777 and 747. (also 764 by 1 flight) Thats pretty amazing IMO

*and I personally would like to see that 320 number traded for top in 738 flying.....*



yep.
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 19054 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 1):
jeesh. Just an amazing amount of capacity. Also the largest station for DC9, 319, 320, 330, 763, 753,752, M88,M90 and 73W flying so basically every type beside the 738, 777 and 747. (also 764 by 1 flight) Thats pretty amazing IMO

*and I personally would like to see that 320 number traded for top in 738 flying.....*

Indeed, that's over 700 daily flights, the most any single airline has ever had an at airport. At peak times in the past DL has never ran more than 660 daily mainline flights until this year. I'd love to see the seat count for this summer, it'll easily be approaching 140,000 daily seats if my calculations are correct.

Jeremy


User currently onlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9508 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 18979 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 2):

and it could get larger as 50 seat flying gets pulled back. I expect to see a solid 60 or so flights with the 717, maybe more.

Also i think ATL has the highest mainline % of any hub in the country. (without looking)



yep.
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 755 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 18962 times:

I'm a huge fan of the DL widebody schedule this summer, so here is a complete listing (using DL's own aircraft codes as listed in the e-timetable):

SEA-MSP 2x 763
SEA-DTW 1x 763
SEA-ATL 1x 76W
SEA-JFK 1x 76W
SEA-CDG 1x 76W
SEA-AMS 2x 333
SEA-NRT 1x 744
SEA-HND 1x 76W
SEA-KIX 1x 76W
SEA-PEK 1x 76W
SEA-PVG 1x 76W

PDX-ATL 1x 763
PDX-AMS 1x 333
PDX-NRT 1x 76W

SFO-MSP 1x 763
SFO-DTW 1x 763
SFO-ATL 3x 763
SFO-NRT 1x 76W

LAX-MSP 2x 763
LAX-DTW 4x 763
LAX-ATL 1x 76W, 2x 763, 1x 77L
LAX-JFK 4x 76W
LAX-HNL 1x 76W
LAX-NRT 1x 77L
LAX-HND 1x 76W
LAX-SYD 1x 77L

SLC-ATL 1x 763
SLC-CDG 1x 332
SLC-HNL 1x 763

MSP-SEA 2x 763
MSP-SFO 1x 763
MSP-LAX 2x 763
MSP-LHR 1x 764
MSP-CDG 1x 332
MSP-AMS 1x 332, 2x 333
MSP-NRT 1x 77L

DTW-SEA 1x 763
DTW-SFO 2x 763
DTW-LAX 3x 763
DTW-ATL 1x 76W
DTW-GRU 1x 76W
DTW-LHR 1x 764
DTW-CDG 1x 333
DTW-AMS 3x 333, 1x 777
DTW-FRA 1x 764
DTW-FCO 1x 333
DTW-NRT 1x 744
DTW-NGO 1x 744
DTW-ICN 1x 777
DTW-PEK 1x 777
DTW-PVG 1x 777

CVG-CDG 1x 76W

ATL-SEA 1x 76W
ATL-PDX 1x 763
ATL-SFO 2x 763
ATL-LAX 1x 76W, 3x 763, 1x 77L
ATL-SAN 1x 763
ATL-SLC 1x 763
ATL-DEN 1x 763
ATL-DTW 1x 76W
ATL-FLL 1x 763
ATL-JFK 1x 764
ATL-LIM 1x 332
ATL-SCL 1x 76W
ATL-EZE 1x 767
ATL-GRU 1x 764
ATL-GIG 1x 764
ATL-JNB 1x 77L
ATL-LOS 1x 76W
ATL-DUB 1x 332
ATL-MAN 1x 332
ATL-LHR 1x 76W, 2x 764
ATL-MAD 1x 764
ATL-BCN 1x 333
ATL-CDG 2x 767
ATL-BRU 1x 76W
ATL-AMS 1x 332, 2x 333
ATL-DUS 1x 767
ATL-FRA 1x 764
ATL-STR 1x 76W
ATL-MUC 1x 764
ATL-ZRH 1x 767
ATL-MXP 1x 767
ATL-FCO 1x 333
ATL-VCE 1x 767
ATL-DXB 1x 77L
ATL-HNL 1x 333
ATL-NRT 1x 744

EWR-CDG 1x 76W
EWR-AMS 1x 76W

JFK-SEA 1x 76W
JFK-LAX 4x 76W
JFK-ATL 1x 764
JFK-GRU 1x 764
JFK-ACC-ROB 1x 767
JFK-DUB 1x 76W
JFK-LHR 1x 76W, 2x 764
JFK-MAD 1x 764
JFK-BCN 1x 333
JFK-NCE 1x 764
JFK-CDG 1x 332
JFK-BRU 1x 76W
JFK-AMS 1x 767, 1x 76W
JFK-CPH 1x 76W
JFK-FRA 1x 76W
JFK-ZRH 1x 767
JFK-MXP 1x 764
JFK-PSA 1x 76W
JFK-FCO 1x 333
JFK-VCE 1x 764
JFK-PRG 1x 76W
JFK-ATH 1x 333
JFK-IST 1x 767
JFK-SVO 1x 764
JFK-TLV 1x 744
JFK-NRT 1x 744

BOS-LHR 1x 76W
BOS-AMS 1x 332, 1x 333

HNL-LAX 1x 76W
HNL-SLC 1x 763
HNL-ATL 1x 333
HNL-NRT 1x 76W, 1x 744
HNL-NGO 1x 76W
HNL-KIX 1x 744
HNL-FUK 1x 76W

And flights from bases outside the US (not including CDG since all routes have already been included above):

AMS-SEA 2x 333
AMS-PDX 1x 333
AMS-MSP 1x 332, 2x 333
AMS-DTW 3x 333, 1x 777
AMS-ATL 1x 332, 2x 333
AMS-EWR 1x 76W
AMS-JFK 1x 767, 1x 76W
AMS-BOS 1x 332, 1x 333
AMS-BOM 1x 332

NRT-SEA 1x 744
NRT-PDX 1x 76W
NRT-SFO 1x 76W
NRT-LAX 1x 77L
NRT-MSP 1x 77L
NRT-DTW 1x 744
NRT-ATL 1x 744
NRT-JFK 1x 744
NRT-HNL 1x 76W, 1x 744
NRT-PEK 1x 76W
NRT-PVG 1x 744
NRT-TPE 1x 744
NRT-MNL 1x 744
NRT-HKG 1x 77L
NRT-BKK 1x 744
NRT-SIN 1x 77L

NGO-DTW 1x 744
NGO-HNL 1x 76W
NGO-MNL 1x 744



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 18919 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 3):
and it could get larger as 50 seat flying gets pulled back. I expect to see a solid 60 or so flights with the 717, maybe more.

Also i think ATL has the highest mainline % of any hub in the country. (without looking)

I think DFW may have a higher ratio of mainline and I'm positive that MIA does, though ATL is up there. It's also interesting that FSDan used June 20, 2013, a Thursday as his date. Mondays, Fridays and Sundays have higher capacity and flights, and July has the highest capacity levels of any month; it's very likely that DL may have an additional 3-5% more capacity in July than in June, making ATL's numbers even more incredible being that they aren't showing peak capacity.

Jeremy


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2313 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 18879 times:

What DL does at ATL is truly amazing. I love flying through there and seeing the sheer amount of traffic going through there.

User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 755 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 18835 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 3):
Also i think ATL has the highest mainline % of any hub in the country.

AA hubs at MIA and JFK are higher percentage-wise, but those are both much smaller hubs (especially JFK). AA at DFW and US at PHX are also close to ATL, but are down by a few percentage points.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 5):
It's also interesting that FSDan used June 20, 2013, a Thursday as his date. Mondays, Fridays and Sundays have higher capacity and flights, and July has the highest capacity levels of any month; it's very likely that DL may have an additional 3-5% more capacity in July than in June, making ATL's numbers even more incredible being that they aren't showing peak capacity.

I wasn't trying to capture maximum capacity here... just a "typical" summer day. It's the same thing I have done with these threads in past years. I realize that July will be up slightly from June, but it will be several more weeks before the July schedule is solidified enough to run a reasonably accurate analysis (probably just me being anal, but I like to be able to trace through the schedule for an outstation and make sure departures and arrivals align and have appropriate turnaround times for aircraft before I consider the schedule ready to look at seriously    ).



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 18778 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 5):
July has the highest capacity levels of any month; it's very likely that DL may have an additional 3-5% more capacity in July than in June, making ATL's numbers even more incredible being that they aren't showing peak capacity.

..add one decent afternoon thunderstorm and the system comes crashing down and then ATL becomes the biggest cluster outside of LHR in a snow shower  


User currently onlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9508 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 18735 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 5):

I think DFW may have a higher ratio of mainline and I'm positive that MIA does, though ATL is up there. It's also interesting that FSDan used June 20, 2013, a Thursday as his date. Mondays, Fridays and Sundays have higher capacity and flights, and July has the highest capacity levels of any month; it's very likely that DL may have an additional 3-5% more capacity in July than in June, making ATL's numbers even more incredible being that they aren't showing peak capacity.

DL: ATL-68.8%
UA: SFO-56.4%
US: PHX-67.2%
AA: MIA-78.6% (DFW 62.1%)

note, JFK would also be above for AA but My minium was 150 flights per day. Its pretty hard to compete with a 90 flight a day "hub". Hell if thats the case then I'm going with the 97% DL SEA "hub"

So number two in the country.....and with 1,000 flights a day. Thats pretty damn good IMO.



yep.
User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 955 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 18664 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 3):
Also i think ATL has the highest mainline % of any hub in the country. (without looking)


You are correct Delta does have the highest percentage of mainline usage in the country and what they are doing is ATL is beyond amazing. and it is good to see Delta still using widebody aircraft on domestic routes because that is something that United has now gotten away from on most hub to hub routes.


User currently onlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9508 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 18607 times:

Quoting BD338 (Reply 8):

..add one decent afternoon thunderstorm and the system comes crashing down and then ATL becomes the biggest cluster outside of LHR in a snow shower

To be far this is true anywhere. The biggest issue for that is Delta's gate usage numbers.

This is one of the reasons why i expect Delta to grab any gates given up by WN/AA/UA.
ATL does have the benefit of the 5 runways to get back to normal opps. (soon to be 6 runways it sounds like)

Quoting jayunited (Reply 10):

Other than AA at MIA. But 700 mainline flights from one hub is nothing short of amazing. I will say I thought ATL would be under 200 in 50 seat RJ flying and higher in the large RJ flying. It will be interesting to see how many 50 seat flights go away and how many overall flights drop off due to the expanded capacity.



yep.
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11710 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 18547 times:

I'll just add to what others have said. The DL schedule in ATL is simply incredible. Operating more than 1,000 daily departures from a single hub, connecting so many markets across the country and the world, is beyond impressive. As hubs, particularly in the U.S., go, ATL truly is in a category by itself.

User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1665 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 18523 times:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
68.8% mainline (69.1% including E75)

Arguably, you could include both the CR9 and E75 in your secondary calculation with DL - though most would agree the Embraers are more comfortable, the seating in the aircraft is configured identically (12F/64Y for the CR9 & E75) and they are largely interchangeable.

The same is basically true for the CR7 and E70, though the E70 has one extra row of Economy Comfort for a total of four more seats (9F/56Y for the CR7, 9F/60Y for the E70).


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3942 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 18340 times:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
Total: 1023
68.8% mainline (69.1% including E75)

I'm just curious... why the special carve out for the E-jets? They are every bit as "regional" as the CRJ900.

Looks like I posted shortly after the person above me but didn't realize it. Sorry to be repetitive. Still curious though.

[Edited 2013-04-28 17:37:28]

User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 755 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 18287 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):
As hubs, particularly in the U.S., go, ATL truly is in a category by itself.

Agreed. In my mind, ATL is in a category by itself, with DFW also in it's own category between ATL and the likes of CLT, ORD, and IAH. I'm not sure what the next closest airline hub in the world outside the US would be in terms of number of departures... AF at CDG? One of the other major EU hubs?

Quoting steex (Reply 13):
Arguably, you could include both the CR9 and E75 in your secondary calculation with DL - though most would agree the Embraers are more comfortable

I did consider it, but realized that I don't think I have ever heard anyone compare a CR7 or CR9 to mainline in terms of comfort (though it is widely agreed that they are a significant step up from a CR2 or ER4). On the other hand, I have heard people on here say they actually prefer E-Jets to mainline because they are spacious, modern, and quicker to load/unload than most mainline aircraft.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3942 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 18206 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 15):
I did consider it, but realized that I don't think I have ever heard anyone compare a CR7 or CR9 to mainline in terms of comfort (though it is widely agreed that they are a significant step up from a CR2 or ER4). On the other hand, I have heard people on here say they actually prefer E-Jets to mainline because they are spacious, modern, and quicker to load/unload than most mainline aircraft.

But the whole point of these threads is to show the departures by a/c, not to compare comfort levels. The most interesting takeaway from your final statistics are the mainle vs. regional breakdown. The special E75 breakdown adds nothing of value to your hard work, IMO.


User currently offlinePanAm788 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 18206 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 14):
I'm just curious... why the special carve out for the E-jets? They are every bit as "regional" as the CRJ900.

Wider cabin than the CRJ/7/9 and more overhead bin space meaning less gate-check hassle.

What is the difference between 767 and 76W? I take it one is the code for the modded a/c..



You know nothing Jon Snow
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1665 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 18127 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 15):
I did consider it, but realized that I don't think I have ever heard anyone compare a CR7 or CR9 to mainline in terms of comfort (though it is widely agreed that they are a significant step up from a CR2 or ER4). On the other hand, I have heard people on here say they actually prefer E-Jets to mainline because they are spacious, modern, and quicker to load/unload than most mainline aircraft.

Understandably, it's going to be subjective. For what it's worth, many medallion members would take a CR9 over mainline due to the favorable F/Y ratio (greater upgrade likelihood) and more comfortable FC cabin. Everyone has different priorities, of course.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 16):
But the whole point of these threads is to show the departures by a/c, not to compare comfort levels. The most interesting takeaway from your final statistics are the mainle vs. regional breakdown. The special E75 breakdown adds nothing of value to your hard work, IMO.

Yes and no - what I like separating is mainline vs. large RJ (or RJ with premium cabin) vs. small RJ. That's why I mentioned the CR7/CR9 differentiation; with Delta, adding mainline + large RJ lets you know the percentage of departures that have a FC cabin.


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3942 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 18043 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 18):
Yes and no - what I like separating is mainline vs. large RJ (or RJ with premium cabin) vs. small RJ. That's why I mentioned the CR7/CR9 differentiation; with Delta, adding mainline + large RJ lets you know the percentage of departures that have a FC cabin

If that's the case, then the CR7/CR9/E75 should all be put together. My whole point and question, was why the E75 gets a special carve out in the statistics when the point of the OPs thread is to show the breakdown in a/c types at each main airport the airline serves. Again... the E75 is every bit as regional as the CR9 in terms of configuration and the mainline vs. regional argument. As long as Republic/Shuttle America and Compass are operating those E75s they're a regional jet, despite their comfort.


User currently offlinePanAm788 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days ago) and read 17994 times:

From a passenger's perspective, the E-Jets are much much more comfortable in Y than the CRJ series. While the CR7/9 are better than the CR2, they still have tiny overhead bins and are narrower than the E-Jets. That was the OP's point, that from a passenger's perspective, the E-Jets are essentially equivalent in comfort to mainline if you are in Y. Of course it's all subjective..


You know nothing Jon Snow
User currently offlinecessna2 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 338 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days ago) and read 17967 times:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
RDU:

ER4: 7
CR2: 9
CR7: 18
CR9: 2
E70: 1
E75: 3
320: 2
M88: 8
M90: 1
738: 2
752: 3

Total: 54

We're scheduled for 57 daily departures...Missing 3 flights somewhere.


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3942 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days ago) and read 17851 times:

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 20):
From a passenger's perspective, the E-Jets are much much more comfortable in Y than the CRJ series. While the CR7/9 are better than the CR2, they still have tiny overhead bins and are narrower than the E-Jets. That was the OP's point, that from a passenger's perspective, the E-Jets are essentially equivalent in comfort to mainline if you are in Y. Of course it's all subjective..

I'm well aware of the merits regarding the Embraer large RJ product. However, that point is moot, since this thread isn't about which planes are most comfortable.


User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1665 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days ago) and read 17812 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 19):
If that's the case, then the CR7/CR9/E75 should all be put together.

Agreed, putting all of the premium cabin RJs together was my original point as well.

Regardless, I'm nitpicking on something that FSDan took the time to put together and I did not. It doesn't impact the data being presented. Thanks again for your efforts!


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3942 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days ago) and read 17752 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 23):
Regardless, I'm nitpicking on something that FSDan took the time to put together and I did not. It doesn't impact the data being presented. Thanks again for your efforts!

Agreed, thanks FSDan for your efforts! It is indeed nitpicking and my initial question to him was purely out of curiosity. I had no intentions on engaging in a E75 vs CRJ comfort debate, but since this is Airliners.net afterall, threads lurch off topic quickly and are often difficult to get back on track.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7597 posts, RR: 27
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 17912 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 7):
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 5):
It's also interesting that FSDan used June 20, 2013, a Thursday as his date. Mondays, Fridays and Sundays have higher capacity and flights, and July has the highest capacity levels of any month; it's very likely that DL may have an additional 3-5% more capacity in July than in June, making ATL's numbers even more incredible being that they aren't showing peak capacity.

I wasn't trying to capture maximum capacity here... just a "typical" summer day. It's the same thing I have done with these threads in past years. I realize that July will be up slightly from June, but it will be several more weeks before the July schedule is solidified enough to run a reasonably accurate analysis (probably just me being anal, but I like to be able to trace through the schedule for an outstation and make sure departures and arrivals align and have appropriate turnaround times for aircraft before I consider the schedule ready to look at seriously ).

Peak summer capacity days are typically Fridays in July.
Thursday June 20th is a good representation but not quite peak. There are number of additional flights that kick in during the month of July, however DL is being aggressive at adding/removing day-of-the-week capacity this summer.
There really is no "normal" day.

Quoting steex (Reply 13):
Arguably, you could include both the CR9 and E75 in your secondary calculation with DL - though most would agree the Embraers are more comfortable, the seating in the aircraft is configured identically (12F/64Y for the CR9 & E75) and they are largely interchangeable.

The same is basically true for the CR7 and E70, though the E70 has one extra row of Economy Comfort for a total of four more seats (9F/56Y for the CR7, 9F/60Y for the E70).
Quoting FSDan (Reply 15):
I did consider it, but realized that I don't think I have ever heard anyone compare a CR7 or CR9 to mainline in terms of comfort (though it is widely agreed that they are a significant step up from a CR2 or ER4). On the other hand, I have heard people on here say they actually prefer E-Jets to mainline because they are spacious, modern, and quicker to load/unload than most mainline aircraft.
Quoting azjubilee (Reply 19):
If that's the case, then the CR7/CR9/E75 should all be put together. My whole point and question, was why the E75 gets a special carve out in the statistics when the point of the OPs thread is to show the breakdown in a/c types at each main airport the airline serves. Again... the E75 is every bit as regional as the CR9 in terms of configuration and the mainline vs. regional argument. As long as Republic/Shuttle America and Compass are operating those E75s they're a regional jet, despite their comfort.
Quoting azjubilee (Reply 24):
Agreed, thanks FSDan for your efforts! It is indeed nitpicking and my initial question to him was purely out of curiosity. I had no intentions on engaging in a E75 vs CRJ comfort debate, but since this is Airliners.net afterall, threads lurch off topic quickly and are often difficult to get back on track.
DL does not not treat the CR7, CR9, E70, E75 any different from a product perspective. Yes there are some operational diferences primarily for range, and a few routes where they do try to put the E-Jets for comfort. However, they treat the CR7/CR9 as the same in offering a First-class product for connecting international J traffic and for Elites.

The 750 mile rule is for a 2-class product, not a specific aircraft type. DL also is getting more CR9s in addition to the 717 acquisition. The numbers give a more interesting perspective when breaking out single-class RJs versus 2-class RJs (since DTW & ATL has almost no E-Jets, while MSP has a ton of both types).

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
ATL

CR2: 237
CR7: 36
CR9: 43
E75: 3
D95: 39
319: 41
320: 43
M88: 231
M90: 82
73G: 20
738: 33
752: 158
753: 11
763: 25
764: 8
332: 4
333: 5
77L: 3
744: 1

Total: 1023
68.8% mainline (69.1% including E75)

76.8% of departures have a 2-class product. (that is quite amazing, and probably after the 717 arrival, this number will jump to 80-85% will have 2-class product)

The DC-9s maintain their last stand at ATL.
Interesting to see the huge number of MD90 departures out of ATL. Everyone talks about the amount of MD90 at MSP, but ATL has about 30 more per day than MSP.
Even more interesting is the number departures are on aircraft of 150 seats or greater (624 departures). That is enormous in its own right.

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
DTW

ER4: 38
CR2: 238
CR7: 34
CR9: 40
E70: 3
E75: 9
D95: 11
319: 27
320: 27
M88: 32
M90: 9
738: 12
752: 26
753: 7
763: 8
764: 2
333: 5
777: 4
744: 2

Total: 534
32.2% mainline (34.4% including E70/E75)

48% of departures on aircraft with a 2-class product. Not surprising to see this percentage lower than other hubs, simply due to the fact that DTW has so many less than 500 mile routes in the Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, Great Lakes, and Ohio Valley regions that, based on the current fleet structure are appropriately served with 50 seat RJs. A lot of this will be upgauged to 66/70/76 RJs with the 50 seater draw-down, and 717s too.

Only 12 E70/E75 depatures per day in June, this is down from previous years, partially since they've consolidated E-Jets to MSP and used some to fund the LGA flying. There are not any routes from DTW that need the range of the E-Jets, that cannot be served with the CR7/CR9, unlike MSP.

Also at 27 A319 & 27 A320 departures per day, this is most likely the fewest that DTW has ever seen. However, MD88 departures appear to be up, 32 is the highest now post-merger.

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
MSP

CR2: 158
CR7: 9
CR9: 52
E70: 10
E75: 53
319: 23
320: 36
M88: 8
M90: 53
738: 20
752: 32
753: 8
763: 5
764: 1
332: 2
333: 2
77L: 1

Total: 473
40.4% mainline (53.7% including E70/E75)

66.6% of departures on aircraft with a 2-class product
63 E70/E75 departures per day, wow.
53 MD90 departures per day, another wow.
40 752/753 departures per day, nice.

Despite some of the lammenting, MSP is still very much holding its own and has not significantly changed since last year. The biggest issue that has impacted MSP is the retirement of the DC-9 fleet (which would have happened merger or not) and that much of the DC-9 capacity was replaced by the CR9/E70/E75 fleets.

I'm too lazy to do the math, but it seems like MSP may be in the similar position as before of having more seats per day on fewer departures (larger average aircraft size) than DTW.

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
LGA

ER4: 32
CR2: 4
CR7: 71
E70: 32
E75: 67
319: 12
320: 15
M88: 29
738: 4
752: 9

Total: 275
25.1% mainline (61.1% including E70/E75)

86.9% of departures with a 2-class product.

DL made it known they wanted to get the 50 seaters out of LGA and they've done a pretty good job so far. It looks like they moved a lot of the E70/E75s from DTW to fund LGA flying.

Mainline seems about similar to last year after the slot swap.

[Edited 2013-04-28 19:53:34]

[Edited 2013-04-28 19:55:01]

User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 755 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 17897 times:

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 21):
Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
RDU:

ER4: 7
CR2: 9
CR7: 18
CR9: 2
E70: 1
E75: 3
320: 2
M88: 8
M90: 1
738: 2
752: 3

Total: 54

We're scheduled for 57 daily departures...Missing 3 flights somewhere.

Good catch. I forgot RDU-TPA. Besides that, I believe I had the correct number of each type of aircraft, but I added wrong. Thank you for pointing that out! Here are the corrected totals:

ER4: 7
CRJ: 10
CR7: 18
CR9: 2
E70: 1
E75: 3
319: 2
M88: 8
M90: 1
738: 2
752: 3

Total: 57
28.1% mainline (35.1% including E70/E75)

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 24):
Agreed, thanks FSDan for your efforts! It is indeed nitpicking and my initial question to him was purely out of curiosity. I had no intentions on engaging in a E75 vs CRJ comfort debate, but since this is Airliners.net afterall, threads lurch off topic quickly and are often difficult to get back on track.

No hard feelings, and feel free to nitpick. I do it. In the end, it was a somewhat arbitrary decision. I definitely thought about including a statistic for % of aircraft with a premium cabin, and perhaps that would have been a more relevant measure. Maybe next time  .



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7597 posts, RR: 27
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 18156 times:

Here is last year versus this year from: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type (by FSDan Jun 5 2012 in Civil Aviation)


2013

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
ATL

CR2: 237
CR7: 36
CR9: 43
E75: 3
D95: 39
319: 41
320: 43
M88: 231
M90: 82
73G: 20
738: 33
752: 158
753: 11
763: 25
764: 8
332: 4
333: 5
77L: 3
744: 1

Total: 1023
68.8% mainline (69.1% including E75)

2012:

ATL

CRJ: 260
CR7: 44
CR9: 63
E75: 4
D95: 44
319: 33
320: 17
M88: 226
M90: 53
73G: 19
738: 31
752: 180
753: 12
763: 31
764: 5
332: 3
333: 4
77L: 3
744: 1

Total: 1033


2013:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
DTW

ER4: 38
CR2: 238
CR7: 34
CR9: 40
E70: 3
E75: 9
D95: 11
319: 27
320: 27
M88: 32
M90: 9
738: 12
752: 26
753: 7
763: 8
764: 2
333: 5
777: 4
744: 2

Total: 534
32.2% mainline (34.4% including E70/E75)

2012:

DTW

ER4: 16
CRJ: 262
CR7: 45
CR9: 44
E70: 1
E75: 17
D95: 8
319: 24
320: 31
M88: 23
M90: 4
738: 23
752: 25
753: 9
763: 6
764: 3
332: 2
333: 4
777: 3
77L: 1
744: 2

Total: 553



2013:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
MSP

CR2: 158
CR7: 9
CR9: 52
E70: 10
E75: 53
319: 23
320: 36
M88: 8
M90: 53
738: 20
752: 32
753: 8
763: 5
764: 1
332: 2
333: 2
77L: 1

Total: 473
40.4% mainline (53.7% including E70/E75)

2012:
MSP

CRJ: 156
CR7: 12
CR9: 42
E70: 12
E75: 57
D95: 2
319: 31
320: 37
M88: 11
M90: 48
738: 11
752: 38
753: 10
763: 3
764: 1
332: 2
333: 1
777: 1

Total: 475

2013:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
SLC

EM2: 21
CR2: 66
CR7: 36
CR9: 46
319: 22
320: 38
M90: 1
738: 19
752: 23
753: 2
763: 2
332: 1

Total: 277
39.0% mainline

2012:
SLC

EM2: 20
CRJ: 72
CR7: 27
CR9: 48
E75: 10
319: 20
320: 27
738: 23
752: 24
753: 1
763: 5

Total: 277


2013:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
LGA

ER4: 32
CR2: 4
CR7: 71
E70: 32
E75: 67
319: 12
320: 15
M88: 29
738: 4
752: 9

Total: 275
25.1% mainline (61.1% including E70/E75)

2012:
LGA

ER4: 56
CRJ: 7
CR7: 50
CR9: 2
E70: 29
E75: 49
319: 13
320: 24
M88: 18
738: 4
752: 16

Total: 268


2013:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
JFK

ER4: 26
CR2: 17
CR7: 4
CR9: 27
319: 7
320: 2
M88: 4
73G: 2
738: 36
752: 24
763: 17
764: 9
332: 1
333: 3
744: 2

Total: 181
59.1% mainline

2012:
JFK

ER4: 4
CRJ: 42
CR7: 7
CR9: 21
319: 10
320: 3
M88: 6
73G: 3
738: 33
752: 25
763: 13
764: 8
332: 1
333: 3
744: 2

Total: 181


2013:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
LAX

CR7: 21
CR9: 19
319: 6
320: 7
738: 17
752: 22
753: 3
763: 15
77L: 3

Total: 113
64.6% mainline

2012:
LAX

CR7: 25
CR9: 16
320: 10
738: 13
752: 28
753: 4
763: 7
332: 1
77L: 3


2013:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
CVG

ER4: 6
CR2: 50
CR7: 9
CR9: 21
320: 7
M88: 7
738: 9
752: 2
763: 1

Total: 112
23.2% mainline

2012:
CVG

CRJ: 64
CR7: 11
CR9: 19
E75: 1
320: 6
M88: 14
M90: 1
738: 7
763: 1

Total: 124

2013:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
MEM

ER4: 5
CR2: 44
CR7: 4
CR9: 14
D95: 2
319: 7
320: 2
M88: 11
738: 4

Total: 93
28.0% mainline

2012:
MEM

ER4: 3
CRJ: 83
CR7: 6
CR9: 20
D95: 3
319: 4
320: 12
M88: 9
738: 6
763: 1

Total: 147


User currently offlineflyasaguy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 18076 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 2):

Indeed, that's over 700 daily flights, the most any single airline has ever had an at airport. At peak times in the past DL has never ran more than 660 daily mainline flights until this year. I'd love to see the seat count for this summer, it'll easily be approaching 140,000 daily seats if my calculations are correct.

Based on the day FSD chose, 114,629 M/L seats; 132,315 total.

A few interesting notes...

- 752s is providing close to 25% of the mainline lift in Atlanta (staggering).
- MD88s is providing about 30% of the mainline capacity
- 13,891 First Class/Business Elite seats

Quoting BD338 (Reply 8):
..add one decent afternoon thunderstorm and the system comes crashing down and then ATL becomes the biggest cluster outside of LHR in a snow shower

You'd be surprised. The place recovers quite nicely after the dust settles. The % of cancelled flights during IROPS has gone down significantly. The last big storm we had which produced golf ball sized hail caused close to 100 diversions but we recovered and were pushing flights out well into 3am in the morning trying to get folks home and not have them stranded in Atlanta.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7597 posts, RR: 27
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 17999 times:

Quoting flyasaguy2005 (Reply 28):
You'd be surprised. The place recovers quite nicely after the dust settles. The % of cancelled flights during IROPS has gone down significantly. The last big storm we had which produced golf ball sized hail caused close to 100 diversions but we recovered and were pushing flights out well into 3am in the morning trying to get folks home and not have them stranded in Atlanta.

I'll agree with this point. I've had several instances where I've had delays due to thunderstorms or weather in ATL (or the oustation) but I've never once been stranded in ATL. I may have missed my original connection or been delayed a few hours but I've always managed to catch the "last flight out" to my destination in an IROPS event. It may have been late, but it got me there. That is the benefit of having so many flights and that when ATL gets backed up, those flights in the last push will get held-up to clean-up the backlog of misconnects. I can't necessarily say the same for places like MSP or CLT where I've been stuck for the night.


User currently offlineairtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 504 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 17980 times:

It's really hard to comprehend the scale of DL's operation until you see posts like this. Atlanta just boggles the mind.  Wow!

Thanks a lot for posting!

Jim


User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 17907 times:

Quoting BD338 (Reply 8):
..add one decent afternoon thunderstorm and the system comes crashing down and then ATL becomes the biggest cluster outside of LHR in a snow shower

Same as ORD, DFW or any other large airport with weather problems. However, as was mentioned, ATL recovers pretty well and I'm sure at least as well if not better than other large airports. Besides, what can you really do about the weather, except deal with it as best you can and do the best job you can, getting things back to normal?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1955 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 17576 times:

Man, it's just all ATL. Unbelievable how big it is and still growing.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 25):
Despite some of the lamenting, MSP is still very much holding its own and has not significantly changed since last year.

Sugar coat it all you want, but Minnesotans and Michiganers are smart enough to know what's good or not for their airports. I doubt slowing or stopping the slow bleeding has been their goal for airport service in the past five years.

DTW lost a slight amount of seats this year (about 2.5%) to match MSP again. It looks like it was primarily due to a drop in the coveted 76-seat category and a slight reduction is mainline gauge such as t-tails instead of 738s. It's still a CRJ haven unfortunately. Overall it's another disappointing year over year change for DTW. MSP was virtually dead flat in capacity. Gauge was shuffled around a bit, losing some 752s for 738s for instance. But overall very few changes. The only real good news is the seasonal addition of Air France, it's first true long-haul addition since the NW acquisition. Aside from that, there's nothing to write home about for MSP. Both airports just sit back and watch others grow.


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 904 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 16666 times:

Interesting to note that DL has now more a/c departures at AMS (19x/day), but more departing seats at NRT (17x/day):

Quoting FSDan (Reply 4):
AMS-SEA 2x 333
AMS-PDX 1x 333
AMS-MSP 1x 332, 2x 333
AMS-DTW 3x 333, 1x 777
AMS-ATL 1x 332, 2x 333
AMS-EWR 1x 76W
AMS-JFK 1x 767, 1x 76W
AMS-BOS 1x 332, 1x 333
AMS-BOM 1x 332

NRT-SEA 1x 744
NRT-PDX 1x 76W
NRT-SFO 1x 76W
NRT-LAX 1x 77L
NRT-MSP 1x 77L
NRT-DTW 1x 744
NRT-ATL 1x 744
NRT-JFK 1x 744
NRT-HNL 1x 76W, 1x 744
NRT-PEK 1x 76W
NRT-PVG 1x 744
NRT-TPE 1x 744
NRT-MNL 1x 744
NRT-HKG 1x 77L
NRT-BKK 1x 744
NRT-SIN 1x 77L


User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 34, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 15828 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11):

I hope jetBlue could snag a gate before DL takes them all haha


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 35, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 15792 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 32):
Man, it's just all ATL. Unbelievable how big it is and still growing.

ATL is slightly down compared to last year and not near it's peak for the 2006?/2008 summer. DTW is slightly down. MSP, SLC, and JFK are largely unchanged. CVG is down. MEM is way down however you will notice that is by and large because of the reduction in RJ departures, not mainline departures (although mainline departures is down as well).

Quoting factsonly (Reply 33):
Interesting to note that DL has now more a/c departures at AMS (19x/day), but more departing seats at NRT (17x/day):

Only makes sense considering the gauge of a/c at NRT vs. AMS.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7597 posts, RR: 27
Reply 36, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 15553 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 32):
Sugar coat it all you want, but Minnesotans and Michiganers are smart enough to know what's good or not for their airports. I doubt slowing or stopping the slow bleeding has been their goal for airport service in the past five years.

I honestly do not think that too many people are getting too concerned about these minimal year-over-year changes at DL on 2012 versus 2013. Not a whole lot has changed at either DTW or MSP since the post-merger network realignment.

Nothing will ever stay the same as there are always going to be capacity adjustments and fleet changes. I do not think that 95% of the passengers at these airports are going to notice any material changes in the flight schedule this year versus last.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 32):
DTW lost a slight amount of seats this year (about 2.5%) to match MSP again. It looks like it was primarily due to a drop in the coveted 76-seat category and a slight reduction is mainline gauge such as t-tails instead of 738s. It's still a CRJ haven unfortunately.

Not surprised again as there was expected to be a slight capacity decrease from DTW and CVG to fund the LGA flying.

DL's fleet has not changed much in the past 12-months. A few more DC-9s were retired and some additional MD90s were brought into service. Not surprised to see 230+ CRJ departures at DTW again this year, like its been now for at least the past 3 years as almost all DC-9 service is gone. DL can't just magically wave a magic wand and get rid of all those CRJs without backfilling them from somewhere else. At the same time, they'll still have all those CRJs to put somewhere else.

I am sure when you look next year at Summer 2014 versus Summer 2013 it will materially different. By next year the 50-seat RJ reduction plan will be well underway, DL will have at least 30 717s on property, the DC-9s will be gone, there will be 739ERs in service, and I believe additional 76 seaters.

For Summer 2013, there are at least 1600 CRJ-200 flights per day spread across the hubs (ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, CVG, MEM, LGA, JFK) (departures and arrivals). This does not even factor in the point-to-point and focus city stuff, or even the ERJ flights. In 3 years DL will have only 125 CRJs left in the fleet, which represents about 800 flights per day. 50 seat departures are going to be cut in half, across the board in the next few years. It will interesting to see how that changes the network.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 32):
Overall it's another disappointing year over year change for DTW. MSP was virtually dead flat in capacity. Gauge was shuffled around a bit, losing some 752s for 738s for instance. But overall very few changes
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 32):
Both airports just sit back and watch others grow.

DL has given clear guidance that overall capacity was going to be essentially flat to up 1-2%. No surprise that there have been minimal changes at the hubs (ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC). DL is focusing their limited capacity growth in conquest markets - NYC (LGA), SEA, LAX while being conservative in other fortified market.
The only thing that is going to lead to significant capacity increases in traditional and mature markets is organic economic growth.


User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 755 posts, RR: 2
Reply 37, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 15262 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 32):
The only real good news is the seasonal addition of Air France

MSP can also be happy about seeing a few more DL widebodies than in past years. The international network is about the same as last year for DL (+AF of course), but there are one or two extra 763s to the West Coast. I believe last year MSP-SFO had several M90s, whereas this year:

07:20 320
09:25 763
11:40 73H
14:15 753
17:50 753
19:20 738
21:45 320

MSP-LAX and MSP-SEA also see 2x 763s each.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 14228 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 25):
I'm too lazy to do the math, but it seems like MSP may be in the similar position as before of having more seats per day on fewer departures (larger average aircraft size) than DTW.

It looks like you're right. DTW has 172 mainline vs. 191 mainline for MSP.

Also, in the regional departures, DTW is very heavily weighted on the 50-seaters with 276 daily 50-seat departures and only about 86 CR7/CR9/E70/E75 flights, nearly half of which are CR7/E70. MSP has 158 daily 50-seat departures and 124 larger regional flights with the vast majority on the CR9/E75.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 32):
Aside from that, there's nothing to write home about for MSP. Both airports just sit back and watch others grow.

I'd say that's a relatively good thing in this environment. Given the fate of many other hubs around the country, I think MSP and DTW can be happy they are what they are and not just another MEM, CVG, STL, PIT, etc. I don't know that having nearly 200 daily mainline departures is "something to write home about" necessarily, but it certainly isn't something to complain about either. Whether we like it or not, NW is gone. The fact that both MSP and DTW appear to have survived airline consolidation as rather large hubs of one of the world's largest airlines is good news.


On another note, I find interesting is that there are zero scheduled DC-9 departures from MSP anymore; how things have changed.

Also it is interesting to note that BOS, MCO, LAX, and SEA all have quite a bit more mainline DL flights than "hubs" MEM or CVG. Even ORD has nearly as many mainline DL flights as those two "hubs."



SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2926 posts, RR: 6
Reply 39, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 13694 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):
Operating more than 1,000 daily departures from a single hub, connecting so many markets across the country and the world, is beyond impressive. As hubs, particularly in the U.S., go, ATL truly is in a category by itself.

Agreed. It's amazing how the Atlanta operation can move so many planes, passengers, bags, cargo in any given day so effectively.


User currently offlineN521NA From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 517 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13621 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 4):

NRT-SEA 1x 744
NRT-PDX 1x 76W
NRT-SFO 1x 76W
NRT-LAX 1x 77L
NRT-MSP 1x 77L
NRT-DTW 1x 744
NRT-ATL 1x 744
NRT-JFK 1x 744
NRT-HNL 1x 76W, 1x 744
NRT-PEK 1x 76W
NRT-PVG 1x 744
NRT-TPE 1x 744
NRT-MNL 1x 744
NRT-HKG 1x 77L
NRT-BKK 1x 744
NRT-SIN 1x 77L

Also NRT-GUM 3x 752 and NRT-SPN 2x752

Edit: Sorry, noticed you meant to show only widebody flights in your post.

[Edited 2013-04-29 09:05:20]

User currently offlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2462 posts, RR: 51
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13522 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 26):
Good catch. I forgot RDU-TPA. Besides that, I believe I had the correct number of each type of aircraft, but I added wrong. Thank you for pointing that out! Here are the corrected totals:

ER4: 7
CRJ: 10
CR7: 18
CR9: 2
E70: 1
E75: 3
319: 2
M88: 8
M90: 1
738: 2
752: 3

Total: 57
28.1% mainline (35.1% including E70/E75)

Just an FYI, the summer schedule, as stated above, typically starts in July. This may be an accurate total for June 20th, but not indicative of the actual summer schedule, at least for RDU.

[Edited 2013-04-29 09:15:49]


Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlinebigbird From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13533 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Speaking of DC-9s, what is now the plan for the cessation of DC-9 operations?


bigbird from georgia
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7597 posts, RR: 27
Reply 43, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13184 times:

Quoting xjramper (Reply 41):
Just an FYI, the summer schedule, as stated above, typically starts in July. This may be an accurate total for June 20th, but not indicative of the actual summer schedule, at least for RDU.

There is really no true summer schedule. There is a lot of variation day-to-day, week-to-week of frequency and equipment type. The June schedule is fairly representative of the summer schedule. The July schedule, with the exception of the 4th of July week represents the peak summer schedule and capcity. The first 2 weeks of August still represents a summer schedule, but then capacity gets pulled way back going into the 3rd week of August and schools go back in session

4th of July week sees a curtailing of capacity into business-heavy markets as it is a holiday week schedule as business travel is non-existant. 4th of July itself operates on more like holiday schedule (like Thanksgiving Day or Christmas Day) has many people are at their destination, enjoying the holiday.

Quoting bigbird (Reply 42):
Speaking of DC-9s, what is now the plan for the cessation of DC-9 operations?

The remainder of the DC-9s will go as the 717s start to join the fleet in the fall. The official last date is not known, but will likely be in December of early-January.


User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 12866 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11):
ATL does have the benefit of the 5 runways to get back to normal opps. (soon to be 6 runways it sounds like)

There are no plans for a 6th runway to my knowledge. There are, however, plans to extend the 5th runway and to add a new south terminal between the 5th runway and the older 4.



"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12008 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 15):
I'm not sure what the next closest airline hub in the world outside the US would be in terms of number of departures... AF at CDG? One of the other major EU hubs?

Excellent analysis of the DL hubs. I did not realize that DTW was as large as it was.

I would suggest that BA at LHR would be one of the airline hubs that you might look at or LH at FRA.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 487 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11399 times:

Never would have guessed that DTW outdoes all hubs to AMS--- and even MSP outdoes JFK.

User currently offlinenickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11304 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 46):

That's likely a byproduct of the former NW and the DTW hub's long relationship with KL and AMS compared to DL's.


User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 755 posts, RR: 2
Reply 48, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10961 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 46):
Never would have guessed that DTW outdoes all hubs to AMS--- and even MSP outdoes JFK.

Once you factor in KLM and the JV, DTW, ATL, and JFK all have 4 departures.

DTW
15:50 DL 333
18:00 DL 333
19:40 DL 333
21:45 DL 777

ATL
15:01 DL 332
17:30 DL 333
19:46 DL 333
22:35 KL 333

JFK
16:10 DL 767
18:00 KL 777
20:12 DL 76W
22:55 KL 74M



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days ago) and read 10920 times:

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 44):
and to add a new south terminal between the 5th runway and the older 4.

The plan had been put on indefinate hold a few years back. Before F Concourse was even complete. The one backer the city needed the most support from, (such a project calls for city bonds and increased fees among other things by the tenant carriers) Delta, was against the project from jump.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineDeltaRules From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3784 posts, RR: 9
Reply 50, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days ago) and read 10250 times:

I'm always curious to see what DL brings to CMH given that they've consistently been one of the bigger carriers there.

CMH:
738: 4
73G: 1
M88: 2
M90: 1
320: 2
E75: 6
E70: 3
CRJ: 4
ERJ: 13

Total: 36



Let's Kick the Tires & Light the Fires!!
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6557 posts, RR: 2
Reply 51, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days ago) and read 10217 times:

Interesting that they added 3 more 764ERs departures from ATL. One of them was taken from DTW, however, I wonder where those two additional 764ER departures from ATL are coming from. Interesting that they are adding more 764ERs departures from ATL (and system-wide), considering the supposed range and payload issues that some A.netters seem to claim.

[Edited 2013-04-30 18:27:33]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 755 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10097 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 51):
Interesting that they added 3 more 764ERs departures from ATL. One of them was taken from DTW, however, I wonder where those two additional 764ER departures from ATL are coming from.

I believe the 764 fleet is more or less maxed out with the summer schedule.

MSP-LHR
DTW-LHR
DTW-FRA
ATL-GRU (2 frames)
ATL-GIG (2 frames)
ATL-LHR x2
ATL-MAD
ATL-FRA
ATL-MUC
JFK-GRU (2 frames)
JFK-LHR x2
JFK-MAD
JFK-NCE
JFK-MXP
JFK-VCE
JFK-SVO

And a repositioning flight on JFK-ATL/ATL-JFK. I think that's all 21 frames accounted for.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1046 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10022 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 35):
CVG is down. MEM is way down however you will notice that is by and large because of the reduction in RJ departures, not mainline departures (although mainline departures is down as well).

It would be interesting to see MEM and CVG's numbers segmented by flights to other DL hubs and flights to spokes.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7597 posts, RR: 27
Reply 54, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10018 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 51):
Interesting that they added 3 more 764ERs departures from ATL. One of them was taken from DTW, however, I wonder where those two additional 764ER departures from ATL are coming from. Interesting that they are adding more 764ERs departures from ATL (and system-wide), considering the supposed range and payload issues that some A.netters seem to claim.

They are not necessarily adding more 764 flights in Summer 2013 versus Summer 2012, they have made adjustments on certain routes.

The utilization has nothing to do with whatever non-factual claims were made on a.net, so I have no idea what that statement is supposed to mean.....


Anyways, here are the changes in 764 flying.


2012: DTW-LHR was 10x weekly 764 and ATL-LHR was 11x weekly 764
2013: DTW-LHR is 7x weekly 764 and ATL-LHR is 14x weekly 764 (and 7x weekly 76W)
So for the date of the analysis, 1 is accounted for in the 3x weekly departures to LHR moved from DTW to ATL.

2013 DTW will have a daily 764 to LHR & FRA


2013: There was a daily 764 on JFK-CDG,
2012: This year it is an A330-200, in addition to the AF flights

2013: BOS-LHR is a 76W
2012: BOS-LHR was a 764

So the additional ATL 764 departures came from DTW, JFK, and BOS.


User currently onlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9508 posts, RR: 14
Reply 55, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9387 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 35):
ATL is slightly down compared to last year and not near it's peak for the 2006?/2008 summer.

While fights numbers were higher (nearly 1,200 flights) this is the largest year for mainline ever AFAIK

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 43):

The remainder of the DC-9s will go as the 717s start to join the fleet in the fall. The official last date is not known, but will likely be in December of early-January.

early 2014 is what i have heard

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 44):

There are no plans for a 6th runway to my knowledge. There are, however, plans to extend the 5th runway and to add a new south terminal between the 5th runway and the older 4.

6th and a 7th runway are being looking at. A smaller runway to replace North Cargo and a 2nd runway out by 10/28.
The airport is updating its master plan and IIRC should be done by June. The City has basically said the plans for at least the 6th runway will be there.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 49):

The plan had been put on indefinate hold a few years back. Before F Concourse was even complete. The one backer the city needed the most support from, (such a project calls for city bonds and increased fees among other things by the tenant carriers) Delta, was against the project from jump.

Not completely true. They are updating the master plan and It is very likely that some form of the SGC will be on it.
Delta became against basically everything when the airport didn't want to manage anything right. (even now, they will have to do something for Delta to get a green light on SGC because its likely Delta will take over mid-field and
all the others would go to SGC.)

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 51):
considering the supposed range and payload issues that some A.netters seem to claim.

Its not anyones fault that because you have some creepy love thing going on with the 764 that you can't understand/figure out the 764 can't fly 12 hour flights like the 332 can. (at full payload.)
My advice is to look at the Boeing published range charts and the Airbus published range charts.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 54):

The utilization has nothing to do with whatever non-factual claims were made on a.net, so I have no idea what that statement is supposed to mean.....

it isn't non-factual, the 764 can't fly as long as other ships in the fleet. For whatever reason this bothers 1337.



yep.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7597 posts, RR: 27
Reply 56, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9265 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 55):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 43):

The remainder of the DC-9s will go as the 717s start to join the fleet in the fall. The official last date is not known, but will likely be in December of early-January.


early 2014 is what i have heard

Likely after the Christmas / New Years holiday period, when capacity is drawn-down for January/early-Feb winter schedule.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 55):
6th and a 7th runway are being looking at. A smaller runway to replace North Cargo and a 2nd runway out by 10/28.
The airport is updating its master plan and IIRC should be done by June. The City has basically said the plans for at least the 6th runway will be there.

A master plan is just that a master, long-range plan. Airports are required to continually update and submit their master plan. Obviously that type of stuff is always going to be in the plan but it doesn't mean it is imminent anytime soon. Its not even at the point where they've secured funding or done any of the preliminary design. Its like a zoning plan for the airport.

DTW has a 5th parallel runway on their master plan, but that may never ever be necessary.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 55):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 54):

The utilization has nothing to do with whatever non-factual claims were made on a.net, so I have no idea what that statement is supposed to mean.....

it isn't non-factual, the 764 can't fly as long as other ships in the fleet. For whatever reason this bothers 1337.

Agreed. Big deal that the 764 doesn't have the longer range of other aircraft, it has different optimal route profile than other aircraft. The non-factual comment was directed at the comment as to why someone would claim "DL doesn't fully utilize their 764s because it doesn't have the range of other aircraft" That makes no sense.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6557 posts, RR: 2
Reply 57, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9192 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 56):
Agreed. Big deal that the 764 doesn't have the longer range of other aircraft, it has different optimal route profile than other aircraft. The non-factual comment was directed at the comment as to why someone would claim "DL doesn't fully utilize their 764s because it doesn't have the range of other aircraft" That makes no sense.

And the 764ER still makes money for DL, especially considering their high J to Y ratio. The 764ERs are generally placed on the higher yielding international routes, while the A330s are generally placed on the more leisure-oriented routes. On routes within the 764ER's range, the 764ER has lower operating costs and CASM than the A332. In fact, low CASM was one of the major reasons that DL originally ordered the 764ER.

[Edited 2013-05-02 09:33:36]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9117 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 57):
And the 764ER still makes money for DL, especially considering their high J to Y ratio. The 764ERs are generally placed on the higher yielding international routes, while the A330s are generally placed on the more leisure-oriented routes. On routes within the 764ER's range, the 764ER has lower operating costs and CASM than the A332. In fact, low CASM was one of the major reasons that DL originally ordered the 764ER.

Well that and the fact that they did not have any A330s in their fleet.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently onlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9508 posts, RR: 14
Reply 59, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9112 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 56):
Likely after the Christmas / New Years holiday period, when capacity is drawn-down for January/early-Feb winter schedule.

yeah but i have heard they may fly into May..... just rumors though.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 56):
A master plan is just that a master, long-range plan. Airports are required to continually update and submit their master plan. Obviously that type of stuff is always going to be in the plan but it doesn't mean it is imminent anytime soon. Its not even at the point where they've secured funding or done any of the preliminary design. Its like a zoning plan for the airport.

I know lol. I'm just saying.
The more pressing need is for gate space(just not a 70 gate complex, more like 30-40) but a 6th runway is coming.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 57):
And the 764ER still makes money for DL, especially considering their high J to Y ratio. The 764ERs are generally placed on the higher yielding international routes, while the A330s are generally placed on the more leisure-oriented routes. On routes within the 764ER's range, the 764ER has lower operating costs and CASM than the A332. In fact, low CASM was one of the major reasons that DL originally ordered the 764ER.

........*sigh* You're going to have a bad day when the 333s start showing up in Brazil and London.
764s do what they do because of product at the moment. Once lie-flats go around more shifting will be done.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 56):

Agreed. Big deal that the 764 doesn't have the longer range of other aircraft, it has different optimal route profile than other aircraft. The non-factual comment was directed at the comment as to why someone would claim "DL doesn't fully utilize their 764s because it doesn't have the range of other aircraft" That makes no sense.

pretty much.



yep.
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6557 posts, RR: 2
Reply 60, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9026 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 59):
........*sigh* You're going to have a bad day when the 333s start showing up in Brazil and London.
764s do what they do because of product at the moment. Once lie-flats go around more shifting will be done.

Even with flat beds, the 764ER will still have a higher J to Y ratio and will still have more J seats overall, which means more fare revenue.

Your bias against the 764ER has to stop.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6557 posts, RR: 2
Reply 61, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8971 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 58):
Well that and the fact that they did not have any A330s in their fleet.
DL strongly considered the A332 as an L-1011 replacement, and threatened to order the model had Boeing not come up with a near-exact L-1011 replacement; Boeing wasn't pointing a gun at Ron Allen's head. That is why Boeing gave them the 764ER.

[Edited 2013-05-02 11:08:54]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7597 posts, RR: 27
Reply 62, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8817 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 59):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 56):
Likely after the Christmas / New Years holiday period, when capacity is drawn-down for January/early-Feb winter schedule.

yeah but i have heard they may fly into May..... just rumors though.

Yep multiple different versions of the story, depending on the source and/or timing of the information they got:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 60):
Even with flat beds, the 764ER will still have a higher J to Y ratio and will still have more J seats overall, which means more fare revenue.

Your bias against the 764ER has to stop.

I'm not hater of the 764 but your undying love for the aircraft is biasing your viewpoint.

The A330-300 while having 6 fewer J seats has about 50 more Y seats. On routes where they need the overall capacity, total revenue potential could be more than a 764. On other routes, they don't need the larger Y cabin, and could use the larger J cabin.

DL is heavily invested into both fleets.


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 63, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8371 times:

Fellas, can't we all just get along? The 764 and the 330 are both great planes, as was the L-1011.


Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6557 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8344 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 65):
Fellas, can't we all just get along? The 764 and the 330 are both great planes, as was the L-1011.

Yes, but the statements made by DeltaL1011man seem to imply that the 764ER is a money losing piece of crap no matter the route, which we all know isn't true. DL originally chose the 764ER because of its lower operating costs and CASM; DL wasn't in any means forced into buying the model, and strongly considered the A332 when shopping for its L-1011 replacement. Perhaps DeltaL1011man is just jealous that the 764ER replaced the L-1011 (considering his username). The 764ER has more range and cargo capacity than the L-1011 ever had; the only advantage the L-1011 had was speed.

[Edited 2013-05-02 19:33:51]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 904 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7806 times:

A little off-topic, but we are talking DL A330s at the moment, so just for info:

Flight DL0049 operated by ship N852NW of May 3rd, 2013 BOM-AMS-MSP diverted to ESB this morning.

see: http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/n852nw

[Edited 2013-05-03 08:04:10]

User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 66, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7721 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 61):
DL strongly considered the A332 as an L-1011 replacement,
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 61):
and threatened to order the model had Boeing not come up with a near-exact L-1011 replacement;

I have no proof to deny what you've said, but just as a gut instinct and years of experience at DL, I'll call BS on both of these statements. Just out of curiosity, where is YOUR proof?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1178 posts, RR: 2
Reply 67, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7664 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Doing a rough calculation this seems to indicate that within 24 months Delta will have at least 780 mainline flights per day in ATL up from the current 700. We can expect the CRJ to drop from their current 237 /day to 70/day, as the 50 pax fleet is slashed to 1/3 of the current numbers, and I predict this reduction of 160 odd CRJ flights will be made up by 80 mainline flights. I think the larger 2 class E-Jets and CR7/9's will stay heavily concentrated at LGA and particularly DTW as upgauges to a lot of the current CRJ/ERJ operations. If the economy which is showing some life in the most recent monthly reports continues to pick up I can see June 20 2015 reflecting 800 mainline operations by Delta.


The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6557 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7668 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 72):
I have no proof to deny what you've said, but just as a gut instinct and years of experience at DL, I'll call BS on both of these statements. Just out of curiosity, where is YOUR proof?
DL wanted a near exact L-1011 replacement with no exceptions or leeway whatsoever, and the A332 was the only option available; neither the 763ER nor the 772(ER) were considered acceptable for that role. Had this not been the case, Boeing would have never offered the 764ER. Boeing was trying to prevent DL from defecting to Airbus; DL wasn't forced into buying the 764ER. In fact, in an Investor Day conference a few years back, Ed Bastian even confirmed the 764ER was made for them. End of story.

[Edited 2013-05-03 09:15:38]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 69, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7573 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 74):
In fact, in an Investor Day conference a few years back, Ed Bastian even confirmed the 764ER was made for them. End of story.

I never denied this part, however if the A332 was ever "strongly considered" at all, it was probably just as leverage to get Boeing to build something rather than really thought of as a model to purchase.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently onlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9508 posts, RR: 14
Reply 70, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7550 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 70):

International long haul across the pacific

Ie Japan, Korea, China etc.


And ATL-HNL can't be a high yield route. It's not flown by the 764 lol

Quoting FSDan (Reply 68):

All 763/744 on the beach markets?



yep.
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6557 posts, RR: 2
Reply 71, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7450 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 75):
I never denied this part, however if the A332 was ever "strongly considered" at all, it was probably just as leverage to get Boeing to build something rather than really thought of as a model to purchase.

But I am pretty sure that had Boeing said no, DL would have gone with A332, as DL was under no obligation to buy from Boeing after the EU blocked the exclusive contract.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 72, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7342 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 77):
But I am pretty sure that had Boeing said no, DL would have gone with A332, as DL was under no obligation to buy from Boeing after the EU blocked the exclusive contract.

But even thought there was no "actual" exclusive contract, it seemed to me that there was a "shadow" contract with Boeing that they stuck to, whether it was official or not. DL was still pretty partial to Boeing and were inclined to order from them, anyway.



The funny thing about the EU blocking the deal is that I bet if it was an EU member airline we were talking about, I can imagine that some of them were inclined to by from Airbus and I wonder if the EU would block any exclusive contracts on that side of the pond, anyway.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6557 posts, RR: 2
Reply 73, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7294 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 78):

But even thought there was no "actual" exclusive contract, it seemed to me that there was a "shadow" contract with Boeing that they stuck to, whether it was official or not. DL was still pretty partial to Boeing and were inclined to order from them, anyway.

If that were the case, DL would have simply accepted Boeing's initial suggestion for ordering more 772ERs. Boeing was under great pressure to keep DL happy. Fact is, Boeing gave them the 764ER to prevent them from defecting to Airbus.

[Edited 2013-05-03 13:04:06]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 74, posted (1 year 5 months 21 hours ago) and read 7028 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 79):
If that were the case, DL would have simply accepted Boeing's initial suggestion for ordering more 772ERs. Boeing was under great pressure to keep DL happy. Fact is, Boeing gave them the 764ER to prevent them from defecting to Airbus.

Well, I guess I didn't learn a damn thing from working there.  



As soon as the EU blocked the "exclusive contract", there was a systemwide "wink & nod" that everyone knew to mean that they were trying to buy exclusively Boeing, anyway. Remember, that DL was trying to simplify the fleet and going exclusively Boeing was one way to do that.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
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