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National Air Cargo B744 Down In Bagram  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 84763 times:

I'm looking at reports of a civilian cargo plane down near of Bagram Air Field in Afghanistan :

http://english.sina.com/world/2013/0429/586461.html


http://features.rr.com/article/048C4jm2C382g?q=Afghanistan

Anyone with more details ??

Rgds.
G.

( Edited to add link ).

[Edited 2013-04-29 06:04:16]


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
288 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineairtran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3690 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 85033 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

National Cargo 747. Sounds like a load shift from what I have heard.

RIP to those that were lost.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 84924 times:

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 1):
National Cargo 747.

Ufff.... how sad, probably a 3 or 4 man crew ?... Let's hope there are survivors   


Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 84982 times:

 

Not looking too good...


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oofPmCfECcE/UX5vwlkSgSI/AAAAAAAAAGI/yOKhssfGyGk/s1600/pcrash.jpg
http://2008alerts.blogspot.com/2013/...-civilian-cargo-plane-crashes.html

Awaiting more details.



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 84781 times:

Quoting KPDX (Reply 3):
Awaiting more details.

NOT Confirmed yet, but all the rumours on the web are talking about a National Cargo 747 ( stall shortly after take off and crashed ). Definitely not a good sight in that pic.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6942 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 84101 times:

http://avherald.com/h?article=46183bb4&opt=0

All perished    RIP



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineLGA777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1138 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 83763 times:

This Beautiful ex Air France bird appears to be the aircraft lost today.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Manny Gonzalez - Thrust Images



RIP to all who where lost today.

LGA777


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 83424 times:

Quoting LGA777 (Reply 7):
This Beautiful ex Air France bird appears to be the aircraft lost today.

Delivered to Air France 1993, ex F-GISE.

The National Cargo livery is really beautiful. The NAC website has not published anything about this accident, probably waiting for more accurate information about what happened.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinerlwynn From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 1064 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 83402 times:

I saw this at theloadstar.co.


http://theloadstar.co.uk/breaking-ne...ational-air-cargo-crash-at-bagram/
"I witnessed this crash today and there was no Taliban involvement i can tell you this for sure the 747 Took off and commenced a quite steep climb out not unusual for here then one of two things happened in my opinion either the strong head wind or a micro up burst caused it to pith upward at what looked to be at least 85deg. Nose up or the cargo shifted to the rear and caused it to nose up. it then did what all swept wing aircraft do in a stall and pitched left at about 1200 Ft AGL then it seemed like the pilot tried to correct and it pitched right and headed for the ground just before impact it looked like it had flattened out to nearly level but had very little or no forward speed what followed was the ground shook followed by a large ball of fire and a huge black cloud of smoke. I truly wish i had not seen this but i did and my prayers and thoughts go out to all involved both on board and the family and loved ones of the crew and passengers."

[Edited 2013-04-29 08:01:33]


I can drive faster than you
User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 82908 times:

Wow, that sounds extremely frightening. Can't imagine seeing that with my own eyes.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 6):
Moderators, can you please change the name of the thread to clarify the Airline and aircraft type ? ( I can't, the post was over 60 minutes now ) .

Agreed. I'd suggest the moderators change the title to note it's a National 744.



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6942 posts, RR: 18
Reply 10, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 82809 times:

Update from AVHerald, I'll summarize here:

Reg: N949CA
A/c: B. 747-428M (BCF)
Airline: National Airlines
Aircraft age- 20 years (1993 delivery to AF)

All 8 crew are reported perished in the crash.

Afghan Authorities immediately denied claims that the crash of a large civilian cargo aircraft was the result of enemy activities. A large fire erupted after the aircraft impacted ground
(quote from AVHerald)



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 82594 times:

R.I.P. to the crew. So sad to hear about the loss of such a beautiful plane.

User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Australia, joined Jan 2013, 1399 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 82600 times:

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 9):
just before impact it looked like it had flattened out to nearly level but had very little or no forward speed

Must be very weird to witness such thing.



KEEP LOOKING UP as in Space Fan News
User currently offlinecapri From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 446 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 82566 times:

http://www.flightradar24.com/#!/2013-04-28/15:50/NCR510

this was its last recorded flight yesterday 28/04 on flight radar

R.I.P to all the crew and prayers for their family


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 82525 times:

This comment in the AvHerald report is heart breaking :

" My brother was the FO for that flight. Just got confirmation from our mother he passed away."

All my sympathies to the crew members, families and friends.

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 9):
then did what all swept wing aircraft do in a stall and pitched left at about 1200 Ft AGL then it seemed like the pilot tried to correct and it pitched right and headed for the ground just before impact it looked like it had flattened out to nearly level but had very little or no forward speed

They hadn't the altitude to correct anything in an aircraft of that size/weight.

Probably being in a war zone they had selected a climb rate higher tan usual, and that only makes the things worst.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 81831 times:

Normally, they fly out empty out of Bagram. The take of is max climb and maneuver with climbing 360 turns. Perhaps run away trim or they engaged the autopilot at that point which commanded nose up.

However, if they did have cargo, a shift would seem like the most likely issue.


User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 81692 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 15):
Normally, they fly out empty out of Bagram.

This may have been the case for past cargo operations out of BAF, but with the drawdown, I would strongly doubt a 747 would go out empty...



Cha brro
User currently offlineFlyer732 From Namibia, joined Nov 1999, 1359 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 81681 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 15):
The take of is max climb and maneuver with climbing 360 turns. Perhaps run away trim or they engaged the autopilot at that point which commanded nose up.

However, if they did have cargo, a shift would seem like the most likely issue.

In all my flights in and out of Bagram in everything from DC-10s to 747s, I've never done a spiraling climb.
The initial reports say that it did have cargo on board.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 81619 times:

Just in case, there is a Family Information Call Center published in the National Air Cargo website, 888-705-7560.

http://www.nationalaircargo.com/info...tion_related_to_Flight_NCR102.aspx

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 394 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 81411 times:

How would one track where this plane has been over the past couple weeks? There was a National B744 parked bear hear last week. Wondering if it was the same a/c??


Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 81368 times:

Horrible news. RIP.

When an airfield is being run by a military, what type of rescue/firefighting equipment is usually on-hand as compared to, say, a typical large American airport?

[Edited 2013-04-29 10:16:13]


Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1484 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 81382 times:

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 8):
"I witnessed this crash today and there was no Taliban involvement i can tell you this for sure the 747 Took off and commenced a quite steep climb out not unusual for here then one of two things happened in my opinion either the strong head wind or a micro up burst caused it to pith upward at what looked to be at least 85deg. Nose up or the cargo shifted to the rear and caused it to nose up. it then did what all swept wing aircraft do in a stall and pitched left at about 1200 Ft AGL then it seemed like the pilot tried to correct and it pitched right and headed for the ground just before impact it looked like it had flattened out to nearly level but had very little or no forward speed what followed was the ground shook followed by a large ball of fire and a huge black cloud of smoke. I truly wish i had not seen this but i did and my prayers and thoughts go out to all involved both on board and the family and loved ones of the crew and passengers."

most probably a cargo movement towards the tail, A microburst that strong is very unlikely and it won´t make a plane to up to 85 nose up.... it´s very very sad, i used to see this planes in NBO sometimes and they look great...


User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Australia, joined Jan 2013, 1399 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 81258 times:

Quoting United727 (Reply 19):
How would one track where this plane has been over the past couple weeks?

Click on the link below. Once the window is completely open and showing yesterday's flights, click on the plane registration at left. This should allow you to know where it flew lately, at least where it was possible to follow it.

Quoting capri (Reply 13):
http://www.flightradar24.com/#!/2013-04-28/15:50/NCR510

this was its last recorded flight yesterday 28/04 on flight radar



KEEP LOOKING UP as in Space Fan News
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15470 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 81072 times:

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 16):
This may have been the case for past cargo operations out of BAF, but with the drawdown, I would strongly doubt a 747 would go out empty...

I would tend to agree. I'd guess there's plenty of stuff that has to be moved out.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 20):
When an airfield is being run by a military, what type of rescue/firefighting equipment is usually on-hand as compared to, say, a typical large American airport?

As far as I know it's pretty much the same for a given airport size. In fact I think some civilian airports are covered by national guard firefighters. I do recall seeing pictures of a crash truck being unloaded from a C-5, so my guess is that it's a priority.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 21):
A microburst that strong is very unlikely and it won´t make a plane to up to 85 nose up.... it´s very very sad, i used to see this planes in NBO sometimes and they look great...

Yeah, if it was really 85 degrees nose up I'm thinking it wasn't a microburst. Was the weather at the time conducive to microbursts?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemabadia71 From Costa Rica, joined Nov 2008, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 80761 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
Yeah, if it was really 85 degrees nose up I'm thinking it wasn't a microburst. Was the weather at the time conducive to microbursts?

Well according to METARs at the time there were several CB approaching the airport

OAKB 291150Z 10017G27KT 9999 VCTS SCT090CB BKN120 16/06 Q1013 NOSIG RMK BLU BLU
OAKB 291050Z 11020G30KT 9999 SCT090 OVC120 16/05 Q1012 NOSIG RMK BLU BLU



mabadia71
User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 5998 posts, RR: 24
Reply 25, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 82691 times:

RIP fellow aviators Sad indeed


"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineSVJ77W From United Arab Emirates, joined Apr 2013, 38 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 82756 times:

That is just horrible.
RIP to all those who lost their lives in this beautiful aircraft. God be with their families.


User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 394 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 88641 times:

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 22):
Click on the link below.

@SPACESHIPDC10 Thanks for the info....SADLY, this was the plane I saw just last week here at KRFD, literally a week ago. It's livery and very glossy paint caught my eye as I was spotting. It was parked at RFD's Cargo Center.

[Edited 2013-04-29 11:41:03]


Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8768 posts, RR: 29
Reply 28, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 85505 times:

This is horrible news. Not only for the family members of the crew, but also a very nice aircraft has been destroyed  


(uploaded by JVL.Holland)

[Edited 2013-04-29 12:56:59]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineMilka From Monaco, joined Mar 2010, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 84837 times:

Quote from Avherlad comment section of the crash:

"Nephew on this flight.
By Dennis C Farney on Monday, Apr 29th 2013 20:07Z

Lost a fine young man today! My nephew Jamie B. as I understand was the FO and he sure loved to fly. His father Terry B. flew for the company also until his retirement just recently. Terry was always a stickler for details and I know he passed that on to his son Jamie as well as his love for aviation! The others in the crew, I do not know of them, but they being Aviator's themselves, I also grieve in their passing! To step off and away from the sidewalk and climb into the cockpit yo Live their dream of flying! Some thing most only dreamt of, this crew did. I weep in Jamie's passing, I cry for the loss to my sister Susan, for my brother in- law Terry and my nephews Randy and Corey. Jamie was doing what he loved and I Thank Jamie for all the memories! God Bless You Jamie! Uncle Dennis 22 years active Military Aviator retired"

http://avherald.com/h?article=46183bb4&opt=0

Sobering...


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8768 posts, RR: 29
Reply 30, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 83886 times:

That comment is heartbreaking...


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1828 posts, RR: 2
Reply 31, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 82970 times:

Very sad day in aviation. My thoughts are with those lost in the crash.

User currently offlineRonaldo747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 82736 times:

Very sad news, RIP to all involved, and prayers for the families.

Not that important but also a sad sidenote: Today marks the 25th anniversary of first flight of the 747-400. The Queen does not deserved that day in this way.


User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1439 posts, RR: 12
Reply 33, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 82666 times:

Very heartbreaking news, may the Crew and the beautiful Queen of the sky Rest In Peace.


If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlines4popo From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 81714 times:

Quoting capri (Reply 13):
http://www.flightradar24.com/#!/2013-04-28/15:50/NCR510

this was its last recorded flight yesterday 28/04 on flight radar


Horrible news and a chilling eyewitness report... RIP.


OT: That is an interesting flight path. Is there a reason why they would fly down the coast of Italy and avoid flying over the Balkans?


User currently offlinelibsport From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 81795 times:

This a/c was just at Hill AFB, UT last week. departed here Saturday 27 April around mid-day. Got this photo of it late Friday afternoon.
On the ramp.



Alex R. Lloyd
User currently offlinecapri From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 446 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 81005 times:

Quoting s4popo (Reply 36):
That is an interesting flight path. Is there a reason why they would fly down the coast of Italy and avoid flying over the Balkans?

I noticed that too, sharp turn south of Albania, one thing that comes to mind is a high overflying fees that Albania or others charge that National Cargo don't want to, like many Carriers that I know avoid Nigerian airspace mainly for the same reasons, other could be political.

[Edited 2013-04-29 14:58:04]

User currently offlineETinCaribe From Ethiopia, joined Dec 2009, 717 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 80624 times:

RIP to the lost ones and their families. Sad day for aviation.
It appears there have been a few eye witnesses (and some presumably with good aviation knowledge and not just pedestrians) that would help in the investigations, including the load shift theory.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3150 posts, RR: 5
Reply 38, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 78229 times:

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 40):
RIP to the lost ones and their families. Sad day for aviation.It appears there have been a few eye witnesses (and some presumably with good aviation knowledge and not just pedestrians) that would help in the investigations, including the load shift theory.

That eerily sounds like the Fine Air DC-8 crash that happened at MIA in the late 1990s.


User currently offlineAirlineBrat From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 646 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 75954 times:

Quoting capri (Reply 39):
Quoting s4popo (Reply 36):
That is an interesting flight path. Is there a reason why they would fly down the coast of Italy and avoid flying over the Balkans?

I noticed that too, sharp turn south of Albania, one thing that comes to mind is a high overflying fees that Albania

My guess is that they were flying around Iran. The flight path ended when aircraft was approaching Georgia and didn't show the last leg to Afghanistan. I would expect that was done for security reasons so the aircraft was not tracked as it approached Bagram.



I'm leavin on a jet plane. Don't know when I'll be back again....
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4947 posts, RR: 28
Reply 40, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 71657 times:

This is such a sad tragedy. Those guys up front knew that airplane very well, so I would be shocked if it was pilot error. I suspect it was a shift in the load, as it seems to be the strongest possibility mentioned.

Kind of off topic, but I noticed the name Lori under the cockpit window. Obviously the ship is dedicated to her. Who is she?



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinePRFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 71444 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 43):
Kind of off topic, but I noticed the name Lori under the cockpit window. Obviously the ship is dedicated to her. Who is she?

Lori Alf, owner and board member of National Air Cargo Group


User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 69186 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

No speculation here. Prayers for the folks on board. R.I.P. aviators. The airplane can be replaced those crew members can not.

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 43, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 64730 times:

R.I.P   

First it's Lion Air with all surviving, now we have a tragedy  

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 44, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 63810 times:

Cargo was five military vehicles according to avherald. That must have been pretty big vehicles, trucks, tanks or similar. One can only speculate what happened when one broke loose. No chance for the crew.

User currently offlineFlyer732 From Namibia, joined Nov 1999, 1359 posts, RR: 22
Reply 45, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 63195 times:

Quoting na (Reply 48):
Cargo was five military vehicles according to avherald. That must have been pretty big vehicles, trucks, tanks or similar. One can only speculate what happened when one broke loose. No chance for the crew.

The cargo was likely 5 MRAP's, that's the max the 747-400 can carry. Not a lot of cargo volume or weight wise all things considered, but they're extremely heavy for a single piece of freight, around 15,000 lbs each if I remember right.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 46, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 62322 times:

Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 49):

Thanks, imagening one breaking loose I would imagine it would crash through the aircrafts skin.


User currently offlineairtran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3690 posts, RR: 12
Reply 47, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 62208 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 49):
The cargo was likely 5 MRAP's, that's the max the 747-400 can carry. Not a lot of cargo volume or weight wise all things considered, but they're extremely heavy for a single piece of freight, around 15,000 lbs each if I remember right.

23,000 lbs each with the turret removed. I wonder how National loaded them. We had a method for restraining them that worked extremely well. I don't want to second guess the loadmasters, but the MRAP's can be locked in forward and aft, and then about 26 straps will ensure proper restraint in all directions. Something went horrible wrong on this flight, and hopefully the NTSB and FAA can find the root cause quickly so it will be avoided again.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineNeutronStar73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 427 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 60597 times:

Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 49):
The cargo was likely 5 MRAP's, that's the max the 747-400 can carry. Not a lot of cargo volume or weight wise all things considered, but they're extremely heavy for a single piece of freight, around 15,000 lbs each if I remember right

No way in hell an MRAP would fit in a 747. Nope. Try again.


User currently offlinedtwpilot225 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 60346 times:

This tragedy hits close to home with their primary domicile for crews being KYIP. A lot of good pilots at National, I just talked to a friend who thankfully was not on that flight and he said that all of those lost were great people. RIP and prayers to the family. Im sure in a year or so I will be able to read the final report on what happened, and I too hope they can find a way to prevent this from happening again.

User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 50, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 60176 times:

Does the nose lift up for cargo access in this type? (747-428BCF).

/RIP crew.


User currently offlineRevo1059 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 60533 times:

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 52):

Looks like this one does...............so I would say......"try again"

http://www.automobilemag.com/feature..._vehicle_afghanistan/photo_03.html


User currently offlinespeedygonzales From Norway, joined Sep 2007, 706 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 59982 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 54):
Does the nose lift up for cargo access in this type? (747-428BCF).

No, only on factory built freighters, and in any case the side door can take taller and wider cargo the the nose door. The nose door can of course take much longer cargo.



Las Malvinas son Argentinas
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6942 posts, RR: 18
Reply 53, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 60024 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 54):
Does the nose lift up for cargo access in this type? (747-428BCF).

From the photo in the following quote, it looks like this aircraft didn't have this capability:

Quoting libsport (Reply 38):
This a/c was just at Hill AFB, UT last week. departed here Saturday 27 April around mid-day. Got this photo of it late Friday afternoon.

Does anyone have any link to the ATC recordings?



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineNeutronStar73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 427 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 60184 times:

Quoting Revo1059 (Reply 55):

WOW! I know we shipped all our MRAPs via C-17 or AN-124, or by truck to seaport, because they don't have to remove the turret and upgun mount. Looks like I do need to try again!

Thanks for the education...


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7345 posts, RR: 32
Reply 55, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 59579 times:

Quoting Revo1059 (Reply 55):
Looks like this one does.

Amazing - thanks for the link. Learned something new.


User currently offlineRevo1059 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 59582 times:

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 58):

No problem. All good   


User currently offlineairtran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3690 posts, RR: 12
Reply 57, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 59913 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 52):
No way in hell an MRAP would fit in a 747. Nope. Try again.

Considering both Flyer732 and myself are loadmasters on the 747 and the MD-11 and have done dozens of these flights, I would take his word on it. You have to pull the turret and the antenna, but 5 of them fit on a 747 with no issues.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Australia, joined Jan 2013, 1399 posts, RR: 3
Reply 58, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 58727 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 54):
Does the nose lift up for cargo access in this type? (747-428BCF).

No.

Besides the few -200Cs, has any pax to cargo converted 747 ever had a nose cargo door fitted ?



KEEP LOOKING UP as in Space Fan News
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8740 posts, RR: 28
Reply 59, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 58596 times:

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 63):
Besides the few -200Cs, has any pax to cargo converted 747 ever had a nose cargo door fitted ?

No, the nose door comes on factory build freighters only All pax to cargo comversions likew this one get a large side door.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently online135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 395 posts, RR: 4
Reply 60, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 58639 times:
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RIP! This is a truly sad event! Prayers and condolences to the family and friends!   

Regards,
135Mech


User currently offlineFlyer732 From Namibia, joined Nov 1999, 1359 posts, RR: 22
Reply 61, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 58819 times:

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 52):
No way in hell an MRAP would fit in a 747. Nope. Try again.

Guess I'll have to rethink the 15+ flights I worked where I put 5 MRAP's on a 747-400. Not to mention, Atlas, Polar and Kalitta who were doing it right next to us.

http://www.worldairways.com/company-news-release.php?id=20


User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 60178 times:

There's now a video of the accident. Totally surreal.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c32_1367332518

Confirms the eyewitness reports. Completely crazy.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Australia, joined Jan 2013, 1399 posts, RR: 3
Reply 63, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58639 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 66):
Confirms the eyewitness reports. Completely crazy.

I'm speechless.



KEEP LOOKING UP as in Space Fan News
User currently offlinecargotanker From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 148 posts, RR: 1
Reply 64, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58719 times:

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 52):
No way in hell an MRAP would fit in a 747. Nope. Try again.
Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 66):
Guess I'll have to rethink the 15+ flights I worked where I put 5 MRAP's on a 747-400. Not to mention, Atlas, Polar and Kalitta who were doing it right next to us.

There are a variety of MRAPs. The Oshkosh M-ATV weighs around 30K lbs, the Buffalo is taller, significantly bigger, and weighs around 45K lbs. So, technically you could all be correct, depending on what MRAP you are referring to. I had no clue the floor on a 747F was strong enough for a 30K lb vehicle.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8768 posts, RR: 29
Reply 65, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58725 times:

Damn, it's like watching a sci-fi movie. Unbelievable.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineairtran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3690 posts, RR: 12
Reply 66, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58744 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 66):
There's now a video of the accident. Totally surreal.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c32_1367332518

Confirms the eyewitness reports. Completely crazy.

Poor bastards. God be with them.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlinec172akula From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 996 posts, RR: 4
Reply 67, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58778 times:

No words while watching that video. Terrible.

User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 59169 times:

That may be one of the most amazing (in a terrible way) aviation videos I have ever seen. RIP to the crew and prayers to their families. I hope they never see this video...


Cha brro
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 69, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58750 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 66):

Good god, that looks surreal indeed.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 70, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 59210 times:

That video is one of the most horrifying things I ever seen in my life. I got nausea and a tight knot in my throat.
At least this is useful to confirm that all the claims made by Talibans of the plane being downed by a terrorist attack were just bluff.

Regards.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3150 posts, RR: 5
Reply 71, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58894 times:

I think the video supports the theory of a cargo shift putting it off balance.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6942 posts, RR: 18
Reply 72, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 59204 times:

God help the guy driving that car too...must be horrific to watch.

I want to make some notes here, at the risk of arm-chairing....
The aircraft when it appeard in the video was moving, but then abruptly slowed and pitched a bit to the left (its left)....then it stopped dead, rolled right, and began to fall at a very impressive speed, and it looked like it slammed into the ground nose-first.

I could hear too that the pilots were applying full thrust the whole time. But at that height and with an aircraft this large, unfortunately a stall like that is completely unrecoverable.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7209 posts, RR: 3
Reply 73, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58841 times:

May be just me, but the vehicle that the camera was mounted on seemed to be meandering around.

User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2851 posts, RR: 3
Reply 74, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58922 times:

Sickening,
Even after they got the nose back down the airspeed looked only in double digits.

Very disturbing.

Okie


User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 75, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58973 times:

That video made me sick... I just cannot believe that. How horrifying that must have been for the people on that plane.


View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3150 posts, RR: 5
Reply 76, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 59075 times:

Did anyone else notice that the landing gear was still down? It rose to a height of 1500 ft I thought (or according to video it looked like it was at a height that the gear would normally be raised). I wonder if they lowered it thinking they could turn back around and make an emergency landing.

User currently offlinetheweave33 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58453 times:

Yeah landing gear down made me think they didn't even have a chance to put it up.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6942 posts, RR: 18
Reply 78, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58634 times:

Let me just say again that video is not for the faint of heart...maybe that should've been added as a warning above...

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 80):
Did anyone else notice that the landing gear was still down?

That's what I saw too, which may suggest the stall and load shift began early in the climb, and the pilots were not so much as worried about the gear as they were about keeping the aircraft up.... of course again this is arm-chairing....



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineAlpage From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2013, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58370 times:

Lord in Heavens !! He basically stalled ... why ? My prayers to those Crewmen.

User currently offlineCarmelo From Hungary, joined Sep 2005, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58321 times:

Could it be that they had a pretty bad loaded plane like heavy stuff in the back of the plane and the strong headwinds made the plane stall like this?!


Carmelo
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15470 posts, RR: 26
Reply 81, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58278 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 66):
There's now a video of the accident. Totally surreal.

The pilots appeared to do everything they could to save it and just didn't have the altitude and airspeed.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 77):
May be just me, but the vehicle that the camera was mounted on seemed to be meandering around.

Probably was. Dash cams are common in some of the more chaotic countries.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offline817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2070 posts, RR: 1
Reply 82, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58128 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 66):
There's now a video of the accident. Totally surreal.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c32_1...32518

Watching that left me speechless..... I actually feel bad for watching it more than once. RIP to those on board   what a way to go...



Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8430 posts, RR: 55
Reply 83, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 57798 times:
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Quoting bueb0g (Reply 66):
There's now a video of the accident. Totally surreal.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c32_1367332518

- I don't think I've ever seen anything so chilling, feel quite speechless, the poor crew, RIP guy's.



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333,342
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3212 posts, RR: 26
Reply 84, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 58043 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 57):
From the photo in the following quote, it looks like this aircraft didn't have this capability:

The thing I notice in the photo is that equipment can only be carried on a 747 with a side cargo door as it is too tall to go under the flight deck floor of a nose loader.


User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 57675 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 77):
May be just me, but the vehicle that the camera was mounted on seemed to be meandering around.

The vehicle was most likely using the perimeter road to either get to the other side of the airfield or running security.



Cha brro
User currently onlineGARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1503 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 57635 times:

]

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 86):
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c32_1...32518
Watching that left me speechless..... I actually feel bad for watching it more than once. RIP to those on board what a way to go...

Holy Crap. Those poor crew members. That thing literally fell out of the sky. Thoughts and Prayers to all
of their family and friends.

Has anyone ever filmed a major Jet liner crash like that?



Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
User currently offlinenorthstardc4m From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2951 posts, RR: 37
Reply 87, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 57776 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 90):
Has anyone ever filmed a major Jet liner crash like that?

There's been several caught on film...
UA232 at Sioux City springs to mind, FedEx at NRT as well... and the Tu-144 crash at the Paris airshow...

But "like that"... I don't think anyone's ever caught a severe loss of control like this on film.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2851 posts, RR: 3
Reply 88, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 57604 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 82):
That's what I saw too, which may suggest the stall and load shift began early in the climb, and the pilots were not so much as worried about the gear as they were about keeping the aircraft up.... of course again this is arm-chairing

The only other thought would be runaway/mis-rigged trim.
It seems pretty obvious they were fighting the issue from rotation hence the gear was being neglected to deal with more pertinent issues.

Okie


User currently offlinemetsfan1 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 57730 times:

That was chilling.

If you look carefully it actually looks like the landing gear is being put down. I wonder if they thought that at the very least they could put the gear down quick level and cash land on it.

Trully horrific.


User currently offlineeksath From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1265 posts, RR: 26
Reply 90, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 57731 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
ARTICLE EDITOR

Quoting kanban (Reply 88):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 57):
From the photo in the following quote, it looks like this aircraft didn't have this capability:

The thing I notice in the photo is that equipment can only be carried on a 747 with a side cargo door as it is too tall to go under the flight deck floor of a nose loader.

This link should settle this side issue about the feasibility of the cargo load that is speculated about for sure.

http://www.charleston.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123176933



World Wide Aerospace Photography
User currently offlineb6a322 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 57950 times:

this video was posted to nycaviation. its really disturbing. However captures the whole thing.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c32_1367332518



The content I post is solely my own opinion. It is not an official statement by/of/for nor representative of any company
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2851 posts, RR: 3
Reply 92, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 57276 times:

Quoting metsfan1 (Reply 93):
If you look carefully it actually looks like the landing gear is being put down. I wonder if they thought that at the very least they could put the gear down quick level and cash land on it.

  

You may be correct, either the gear is hidden from the camera angle or on the way down.

Okie


User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 57216 times:

Does National (and other similar carriers), fly in their own loadmasters? Or is the work done by contractors at Bagram? I'm trying to account for the other 5 passengers aboard this flight.


Cha brro
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 3
Reply 94, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 57162 times:

A horrifying video indeed. But I don't know what to make of the obviously wrong date of the video. And the aircraft seems to hover in the sky for a few seconds and then moves awkwardly.

Somehow this looks unreal...



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlinebarney captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 887 posts, RR: 13
Reply 95, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 57315 times:

Quoting b6a322 (Reply 95):
this video was posted to nycaviation. its really disturbing. However captures the whole thing.

I must be missing something - it appears to be the same video already posted.


Tragic nonetheless, RIP guys.  Sad

[Edited 2013-04-30 10:02:03]


...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 96, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 57045 times:

R.I.P to the crew, what a sad accident...

That video looks so surreal, while I remember seeing some videos like this such as a video about AN-12 that crashed in Congo but none of them showed the loss of control and everything like this... Just the way how this giant bird falls, it looks so unbelievable and sad...

[Edited 2013-04-30 10:04:15]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 97, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 56982 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 41):
That eerily sounds like the Fine Air DC-8 crash that happened at MIA in the late 1990s

That was my first thought too, however the Fine Air Crash had essentially no restraints whatsoever

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 51):
23,000 lbs each with the turret removed. I wonder how National loaded them. We had a method for restraining them that worked extremely well. I don't want to second guess the loadmasters, but the MRAP's can be locked in forward and aft, and then about 26 straps will ensure proper restraint in all directions. Something went horrible wrong on this flight, and hopefully the NTSB and FAA can find the root cause quickly so it will be avoided again.

I agree. Center load too.



737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7345 posts, RR: 32
Reply 98, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 56467 times:

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 97):
I'm trying to account for the other 5 passengers aboard this flight.

I'm assuming a flight like that would usually include two flight deck crews, two loadmasters and one or two mechanics. The owners don't want the aircraft to remain in a war zone for required crew rest. They also want someone who can fix minor mechanical problems.

Quoting A342 (Reply 98):
And the aircraft seems to hover in the sky for a few seconds and then moves awkwardly.

The 'hovering' is caused by the camera angle when the aircraft stalls and moves directly toward the camera.

Yes, stalled aircraft move very awkwardly.

I've seen that happen once in person - a C-130 on Guam.


User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2154 posts, RR: 8
Reply 99, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 56444 times:

First of all, that video is heart breaking, those guys never had a chance. My condolences to all involved.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 75):
I think the video supports the theory of a cargo shift putting it off balance.

The crazy angle right after take off seems like a balance shift problem, because no sane pilot would make such a steep climb, the angle was so high that you can see in the horrible video they fell vertically.

Quoting theweave33 (Reply 81):
Yeah landing gear down made me think they didn't even have a chance to put it up.

I concurr, the problem was so fast that they did even pull up the gear...

May they all rest in Peace

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15470 posts, RR: 26
Reply 100, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 56476 times:

Quoting eksath (Reply 94):
This link should settle this side issue about the feasibility of the cargo load that is speculated about for sure.

I think there is some confusion on the issue, and pretty much everyone is right.

MRAP is not one vehicle but rather a general category of armored transports. The actual vehicles come in various sizes, some of which will fit in 747s and some of which, it appears to me, will not.

The link posted deals with the Oshkosh M-ATV which is one of the smaller MRAPs, roughly equal in capability to a Humvee. Other MRAP vehicles, such as the Buffalo or Caiman, probably won't fit in a 747 or at least would require more dismantling.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 56365 times:
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WOW, watching that is very hard. It is hard to put into words how I feel now, Seven souls lost forever recorded. R.I.P..

User currently offlineWestern727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 727 posts, RR: 4
Reply 102, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 56077 times:

Goose bumps. The crew no doubt knew their ends were imminent. I feel for their families with this video out.


Jack @ AUS
User currently online135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 395 posts, RR: 4
Reply 103, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 56186 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Here's the YouTube link again, seems to have been removed from an earlier post!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo51Be2jL8c

I, unfortunately, watched the B-52 crash at Fairchild AFB in 1994, and you never get over seeing something like this in person! This reminded me of that immediately!

Regards,
135Mech

[Edited 2013-04-30 10:58:50]

User currently offlineMrBuzzcut From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 55424 times:

Just out of curiosity, who investigates and issues an official report on an accident like this...a US carrier in a foreign country operating out of a US military controlled air base. NTSB? Air Force? Host country's civil aviation authority (which I don't imagine is the best in Afghanistan if they have one at all)...some combination of the three?

User currently offlinemingocr83 From Costa Rica, joined Dec 2007, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 105, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 54933 times:

Sad stuff...poor guys, RIP.


A380, A320, A319, 757-200, 737-800, 737-700, E190
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 106, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 54995 times:

Five of the seven crew members are from Michigan. I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who retired last year from Southern, he used to fly DC-8's for Murray and knows the father of the first officer that was killed in the crash. The FO, like his father, was a FE with Murray/National on DC-8's up until last summer when he was upgraded to the right seat on 747's. The most tragic part of all of this is that the FO got married just last May on the tarmac at KYIP in front of the Yankee Air Force Museum.

User currently offlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1231 posts, RR: 20
Reply 107, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 54729 times:

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 97):

Does National (and other similar carriers), fly in their own loadmasters? Or is the work done by contractors at Bagram? I'm trying to account for the other 5 passengers aboard this flight.

Indeed most if not all 121 Supplemental cargo carriers do have one. National had their own as well. 4 Pilots, 2 Mechanics, 1 Loadmaster onboard.


User currently offlineTrnsWrld From United States of America, joined May 1999, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 54637 times:

OMG watching that video has me just sitting here in awe. I feel so horrible for the crew in that aircraft. Absolutely one of the most chilling videos I have seen.

User currently offlineWestern727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 727 posts, RR: 4
Reply 109, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 54595 times:

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 112):
4 Pilots

Why 4...for the relatively short hop (1,065 nm) of OAI-DXB, in theory? Deadheaders, or do they add relief flight crews on war-zone flights...or might it something else entirely?



Jack @ AUS
User currently offlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1231 posts, RR: 20
Reply 110, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 54291 times:

Quoting Western727 (Reply 114):
Why 4...for the relatively short hop (1,065 nm) of OAI-DXB, in theory? Deadheaders, or do they add relief flight crews on war-zone flights...or might it something else entirely?

Yes, those Supplemental carriers are just hopping around so it's good to have another crew deadhead with the aircraft to reduce down time when that first crew times out.


User currently offlineFlying Belgian From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 2389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 111, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 54181 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Seems like that plane was operating for the French army recently as it was regulary spotted in CHR (many pics of it on french forums dating back to the day before the crash).

Never saw such video in my life. Makes think to nightmares you do when you see a plane falling in front of you.

RIP to all crew and families. It's obviously a tragical loading mistake. How horrible...



Life is great at 41.000 feet...
User currently offlineogre727 From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 712 posts, RR: 2
Reply 112, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 53268 times:

Nothing to say, except RIP. that video ruined my night. Strength and love to their families.


Sigh
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2915 posts, RR: 1
Reply 113, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 53174 times:

Quoting MrBuzzcut (Reply 108):
NTSB? Air Force? Host country's civil aviation authority (which I don't imagine is the best in Afghanistan if they have one at all)...some combination of the three?

Combo, theoretically, of the nation in which the accident happened, the nation of the aircraft's registry, and the nation of the manufacturer.

I have a feeling that the NTSB is going to be leading this one.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDUSint From Germany, joined Apr 2013, 191 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 53539 times:

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 91):
There's been several caught on film...
UA232 at Sioux City springs to mind, FedEx at NRT as well... and the Tu-144 crash at the Paris airshow...

But "like that"... I don't think anyone's ever caught a severe loss of control like this on film.

It reminded me of this Globemaster crash (stall) I saw some weeks ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Layz-3XxZC4

Though probably not having the same cause, both accidents are horrifying.


User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1548 posts, RR: 8
Reply 115, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 53455 times:

I couldn't even finish the video. Fire and load shift are a cargo pilots worst fears. My dispatcher told me right after it happened while I was on a fuel stop yesterday and I haven't stopped thinking about it since. RIP to my fellow YIP freightdogs.


Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 627 posts, RR: 1
Reply 116, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 53139 times:

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 91):
Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 90):
Has anyone ever filmed a major Jet liner crash like that?

There's been several caught on film...
UA232 at Sioux City springs to mind, FedEx at NRT as well... and the Tu-144 crash at the Paris airshow...

But "like that"... I don't think anyone's ever caught a severe loss of control like this on film.

1994 B-52 crash at Fairchild AFB.


User currently offlinebtblue From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 578 posts, RR: 4
Reply 117, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 52798 times:

That is truly shocking. I only happened to see it as the video was posted on a news website.

RIP - condolences to their families and loved ones.



146/2/3 737/2/3/4/5/7/8/9 A320 1/2/18/19/21 DC9/40/50 DC10/30 A300/6 A330/2/3 A340/3/6 A380 757/2/3 747/4 767/3/4 787 77
User currently offlinetonyban From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 52221 times:

OMG ! I just saw the video and it's very traumatizing. I feel horrible. RIP to the souls lost. This is very sad and tragic.

User currently offlineBasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1301 posts, RR: 1
Reply 119, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 52136 times:

Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 90):
Has anyone ever filmed a major Jet liner crash like that?
Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 91):
There's been several caught on film...
UA232 at Sioux City springs to mind, FedEx at NRT as well... and the Tu-144 crash at the Paris airshow...

As well as the Red Wings Tu-204 at VKO, the Air France A320 at MLH, the Air France Concorde on fire shortly before the crash and probably some more...

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 91):
But "like that"... I don't think anyone's ever caught a severe loss of control like this on film.

In poor quality, but still: Azza Transport B707F in SHJ in late 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij52auSx1Eo



'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
User currently offline9lflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 51491 times:

The just 30 seconds of absolute sheer terror in that cockpit. That video is terrifying. My heart goes out to the crew and their families. May your skies be forever blue and smooth. 3


My opinions do not represent the opinions of my company. They are solely the opinion of the poster.
User currently offlineMcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1436 posts, RR: 17
Reply 121, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 50683 times:

Quoting Western727 (Reply 114):
Why 4...for the relatively short hop (1,065 nm) of OAI-DXB, in theory? Deadheaders, or do they add relief flight crews on war-zone flights...or might it something else entirely?

Generally they will bring two crews as no one wants to have crews layover in Afghan. So they have one crew fly in and the other fly out.


User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4947 posts, RR: 28
Reply 122, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 50819 times:

The crew fought that hard, and appears they were close to a recovery. Obvious altitude and speed were not enough. I am amazed they were able to level out at the last second. I agree with others, the video makes my stomach churn. I cant imagine what was being said in that cockpit during the final seconds. Like I said earlier, I am very doubtful this will be contribited to airmanship issues. These guys behind those controls were some of the best.  


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3292 posts, RR: 13
Reply 123, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 50065 times:
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Disclaimer: I am not claiming that the video is falsified or that this is a conspiracy, or that the driver expected it to happen. The wrong date on the video could be as simple as a new camera that was never set to the correct date.

I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

TIS



www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 124, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 49841 times:

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 124):
Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 91):
But "like that"... I don't think anyone's ever caught a severe loss of control like this on film.

there was DH Buffalo that went down because of a gust lock that was not removed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUlVP52tMs8



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlinetockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 947 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 50181 times:

reminds me most of this crash...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by7fzs6paic


User currently offlinetockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 947 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 49532 times:

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
Disclaimer: I am not claiming that the video is falsified or that this is a conspiracy, or that the driver expected it to happen. The wrong date on the video could be as simple as a new camera that was never set to the correct date.

I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

some of these people have seen a lot of death and are probably numb to it.


User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 127, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 49394 times:

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

Everyone reacts differently, sir. This is definitely the real deal...

I watched a Hawker Hunter Mk.58 stall and explode into a fireball, killing the pilot, and I didn't make a peep... Shock, my friend. No doubt this guy was in complete shock. Notice how only after he pulls over and has time to comprehend it does he curse.



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlinebeau222 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 49022 times:

I hope the family does not view this video.

User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2915 posts, RR: 1
Reply 129, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 49016 times:

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound

If you're in Afghanistan... I have a feeling it takes quite a lot to faze someone.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 130, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 48970 times:

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 103):
The crazy angle right after take off seems like a balance shift problem, because no sane pilot would make such a steep climb, the angle was so high that you can see in the horrible video they fell vertically.

It is very hard to judge angle like that. It is also quite amazing how steeply airliners can climb if they have light loads (not saying this was the case here).

Quoting F9animal (Reply 127):

The crew fought that hard, and appears they were close to a recovery. Obvious altitude and speed were not enough. I am amazed they were able to level out at the last second.

As I see it they were nowhere near recovery. The wing is quite stalled except perhaps in the final split second.

I speculate that the pilot was instinctively trying to level the wings as a first step towards recovery.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 127):
I cant imagine what was being said in that cockpit during the final seconds

Complete speculation but I would give good odds that it was all flight related. Good pilots never give up.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

Different people react to these things differently.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 131, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 48930 times:

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver.

I can think in two possible explanations. One, this guy is in a very violent/dangerous place, maybe for many months or years now. It is a war zone. Maybe he saw large explosions dozens of times before. The other explanation is almost the opposite situation. Maybe he was just too shocked in the first seconds, processing the images in his mind and thinking what kind of threat was this for his life. To be honest, after several hours after this video came out, I still have chills in my back thinking in the noises in that cockpit, the screams and desperation of the poor guys on board.... I´m too with those who expect the family and friends of the crew members don´t ever see this video.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7004 posts, RR: 9
Reply 132, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 48802 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 77):

May be just me, but the vehicle that the camera was mounted on seemed to be meandering around.


Dashcam and I think I heard the guy speaking English might have been some type of military/authority security guy. Seems at first the way he parked his car he parked it to block the road like a police car would.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):

Given the way he drove his car I think he is military or some type of security etc.. He has probably seen so much S**T in his life that his response would be like that.

The video was just awful. I too thought I saw the gear coming down right before impact. This was by far the worst air crash video I have ever seen. RIP to all lost. Really a horrbile accident and I too doubt pilot error is involved. Reminded me of the Fine Air crash at MIA too.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineboeingfixer From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 525 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 48699 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 129):
there was DH Buffalo that went down because of a gust lock that was not removed:

With all due respect this was a Caribou that was modified with turboprops and not a Buffalo. The final determination was that the control locks were still engaged. Please get your facts straight.

There's a lot of amateur lawn-chair pilot/investigator conjecture going on here that has no bearing in fact. There are several variables that could cause an accident of this sort and blurting them out as fact only brings out the ignorant responses that have been posted. I will not give my thoughts on the cause as they have no basis in fact and I will await the investigation outcome with anticipation and grieve the loss of fellow freight haulers.

May they rest in Piece!

Regards,

John



Cheers, John YYC
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 134, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 48558 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 138):
I too thought I saw the gear coming down right before impact.

It is very hard to tell but I think it was down before. You just can't see it because of the airplane structure behind it. If you look around 0:20 I think you can see the left wing gear wheels outlined against the sky at the wing/fuselage intersection..

In any case getting the gear down at that point was probably not a priority. It seems more likely they hand't raised it yet after take-off.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinetheweave33 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 48589 times:

On second look it appears the landing gear is coming down in the last seconds before ground impact. Even if they thought they could put it down in the field, landing gear is contraindicated in ground ditching; am I correct?

Well on third and fourth looks...I don't know. Its very tough to tell if it was put down in the last seconds or the gear just defined against the bright sky as it leveled.

[Edited 2013-04-30 19:07:19]

[Edited 2013-04-30 19:08:43]

User currently offlinesprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1833 posts, RR: 2
Reply 136, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 48472 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 82):
That's what I saw too, which may suggest the stall and load shift began early in the climb, and the pilots were not so much as worried about the gear as they were about keeping the aircraft up.
Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 103):
The crazy angle right after take off seems like a balance shift problem, because no sane pilot would make such a steep climb, the angle was so high that you can see in the horrible video they fell vertically.
Quoting F9animal (Reply 127):
The crew fought that hard, and appears they were close to a recovery. Obvious altitude and speed were not enough. I am amazed they were able to level out at the last second. I agree with others, the video makes my stomach churn. I cant imagine what was being said in that cockpit during the final seconds

They were fighting it all the way down. Poor souls, RIP. Makes me think about the weight and balance on my little 150. The only thing I can say is they died doing what they loved---flying.

Dan in Jupiter


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 137, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 48316 times:

Quoting boeingfixer (Reply 139):
There's a lot of amateur lawn-chair pilot/investigator conjecture going on here that has no bearing in fact. There are several variables that could cause an accident of this sort and blurting them out as fact only brings out the ignorant responses that have been posted.

I think most people here understand that it is speculation and not real investigation. These threads tend to become very interesting because aviation professionals speculate and discuss possibilities.

Yes, there are people who blurt out "facts" but I think the pros (and I certainly don't count myself in that number) are careful not to deal in certainties.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7004 posts, RR: 9
Reply 138, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 47968 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 140):
It is very hard to tell but I think it was down before. You just can't see it because of the airplane structure behind it. If you look around 0:20 I think you can see the left wing gear wheels outlined against the sky at the wing/fuselage intersection..

In any case getting the gear down at that point was probably not a priority. It seems more likely they hand't raised it yet after take-off.


I agree gear was the last thing on the list. I think you are right some camera angle makes it seem like it was coming down.

You could tell this crew was fighting till the last minute as any great crew would. Again just a horrible accident caught on film. The film will help investigators thought. The NTSB will be going there I read.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 143):
I think most people here understand that it is speculation and not real investigation. These threads tend to become very interesting because aviation professionals speculate and discuss possibilities.

Yes, there are people who blurt out "facts" but I think the pros (and I certainly don't count myself in that number) are careful not to deal in certainties.


Agreed. I don't see why we can't share our opinions on the matter especially those who fly or are involved in aviation for a living. I don't think anyone considers what they are saying as "fact"



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4947 posts, RR: 28
Reply 139, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 47927 times:

I love reading what people speculate on here. I also love rumours. If someone wants to share their thoughts, opinions, facts, and so on..... Why not? We do have armchair pilots, flight attendants, ground crews, and CEOs on this site. But, we also have the real meal deals on here. I have learned a ton of interesting things about airplanes and airlines on here. It is a valuable tool!

Now, back to the subject.... Does anyone think that a extra thousand or two thousand feet might have resulted in a different outcome?



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineboacvc10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 587 posts, RR: 0
Reply 140, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 47814 times:

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

I was also surprised at this... I wonder why nothing was communicated as the vehicle had a radio / antenna



Up, up and Away!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 141, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 47721 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 145):
Now, back to the subject.... Does anyone think that a extra thousand or two thousand feet might have resulted in a different outcome?

With the speculation hat firmly on, that really depends on the underlying cause. If the cargo had shifted the CG way back beyond limtis and stayed there, then probably not. Any pitch movement would keep diverging. Then again the cargo could shift back forward, which would make the aircraft stable again. But they'd have to keep the nose down to keep it from shifting back. All in all, probably unrecoverable.

If this was "simply" a stall due to a stabilizer trim set much too far nose up, then recovery would have been possible, but it would have taken several thousand feet. I would also point out that I really don't know that much about this scenario. I suppose that if the pitch trim was set very wrong, it might be counterable with downward elevator.

If it was a stall due to pitch control malfunction, it depends on the type of malfunction.

Speculation hat off.

[Edited 2013-04-30 19:49:47]

[Edited 2013-04-30 19:54:09]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12878 posts, RR: 12
Reply 142, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 47590 times:

I presume the recorders will be relatively easy to locate, hopefully in good condition to get the data needed in the investigation.

Could there have been some kind of mechanical failures, such as an engine, a flap jammed ? One cannot exclude those factors.

What a sad sight.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 143, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 47584 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 148):
Could there have been some kind of mechanical failures, such as an engine, a flap jammed ? One cannot exclude those factors.

Absolutely cannot exclude those. However a "simple" engine failure is extensively trained for. Also the right and left elevators run from separate hydraulic systems.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 144, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 47715 times:

That video is unbelievably frightening, It must be incredibly scary having a stalling 747 coming quickly towards one.  
RIP to the crew onboard, those final seconds would have been terrifying. My thoughts are with their families, friends and also with their colleagues at National Air Cargo - everyone knows everyone at small firms like that.

One question this brings to mind is what condition will the MRAPs currently be in? Those vehicles are designed to withstand a substantial amount of damage (though probably not on this magnitude).

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 7):
The National Cargo livery is really beautiful.

  

Quoting F9animal (Reply 145):
Does anyone think that a extra thousand or two thousand feet might have resulted in a different outcome?

They may have been able to reduce their vertical speed somewhat which would have made the crash smoother.

[Edited 2013-04-30 20:11:31]


repaint ZK-PBG!
User currently offlineSocalApproach From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 145, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 47219 times:

Very Disturbing Footage to say the least.

User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 18
Reply 146, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 47551 times:

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 61):
Considering both Flyer732 and myself are loadmasters on the 747 and the MD-11 and have done dozens of these flights, I would take his word on it. You have to pull the turret and the antenna, but 5 of them fit on a 747 with no issues.

And your old company once put SIX on their 747-400.

http://www.worldairways.com/company-news-release.php?id=20


User currently offlinemirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7438 posts, RR: 62
Reply 147, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 46939 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
Amazing how many armchair experts have already solved the accident.

Some things never change.


Heart stopping footage, never thought I could envision a 747 in that manner. Its so sad considering how far we've come and yet, how these things can still happen.



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7004 posts, RR: 9
Reply 148, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 46852 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 148):
Could there have been some kind of mechanical failures, such as an engine, a flap jammed ? One cannot exclude those factors.


Besides for a cargo shift or something going wrong with the trim/elevator there are probably other possible reasons but highly doubt an engine failure even all four of them would do something like this. The airplane is fully able to fly with an engine or two out also.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 394 posts, RR: 1
Reply 149, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 46519 times:

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 151):
Very Disturbing Footage

Pilots are incredibly well trained. We've heard it before...all the tests, training, type-ratings, simulator time, flight time and again more recurrent training. No matter if you're private or an ATP, you train for every "conceivable" situation, but each and every pilot knows that its not "IF" an incident could/will occur, it's "When". These pilots unfortunately got the short stick. May they all Rest in Peace.

As for "Disturbing Footage", Yes it is, but this footage should be used for educational purposes to solve why it happened and possibly to come up with solutions so it never happens again. This footage should be humbling and SOBERING for ALL FLIGHT CREW MEMBERS. No PILOT is exempt from something like this. It's my hope that NONE of you on this forum, or any pilots worldwide for that matter, ever have to be in a seat of an aircraft in a situation like this!

Even more disturbing for me was seeing this plane only one week earlier in RFD. Then watching the video...

[Edited 2013-04-30 20:46:54]

[Edited 2013-04-30 20:50:22]


Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7345 posts, RR: 32
Reply 150, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 46275 times:

Quoting 9lflyguy (Reply 125):
The just 30 seconds of absolute sheer terror in that cockpit.

I wish people would stop saying things like this. CVR transcripts and recordings show that the cockpit crews almost never drop into panic or sheer terror mode. They keep fighting to control the aircraft to the very end.

In another current thread on JAL 123 - the discussion is what could the crew have done. Those guys flew a barely controllable airplane for 32 minutes. The crew of UA 232 stayed in the air longer with also several control issues.

The crew of the Gimli Glider and the Air Transat A330 both found themselves glider pilots - and in the Air Transat case - 135 miles from land over the open ocean.

Pilots in all those flights knew the chances of survival were extremely low, but three of those crews made it. Over and over crews that keep fighting to keep the airplane in the air until they can land.

Pilots don't panic, don't give in to terror. They keep working to try to save the plane, and themselves. It is clear to me from the video that the crew of this plane was trying to minimize the impact. They were in panic or terror.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

The video was likely from a US military contractor escorting the white van across the area. More than likely the driver was a former US military person who has seen death up close. It is also very likely this isn't the first airplane he saw crash at that airport.

I've seen three aircraft crash. I've been to two high fatality crash sites which the wreckage still smoking before any bodies are removed. I've been to at least two dozen other crash sites of small military trainers / fighters - some fatal. I've seen a helicopter (CH-53) an flip over - throwing parts of the blades close to 500 yards. I've also been a survivor of a large car bomb attack, and helped recover dozens of remains.

It's not to say that I or other people become numb or insensitive, but you learn what has to be done, what your personal responsibilities and priorities have to be. That you MUST do your job, so that others can do their job of recovery or rescue.

Standing around in shock or in awe of seeing a plane like that go down, or having an emotional reaction - does no one any good, and can very likely put your life in danger, and the lives of the people you are responsible to keep safe.


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1787 posts, RR: 2
Reply 151, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 45849 times:

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 128):
I can't believe there is no reaction from the driver. He waits until more than a minute into the video to release an expletive, but otherwise, nothing. It's incredible to me that he could have watched this happen in front of him like this and not made a sound.

It's called pure shock. Sometimes it even causes people to be paralyzed, like for example when a train or car is bearing down on them. Watching a video of something and seeing it live and in person are 2 completely different things.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineuncgso From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 152, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 44920 times:

how much cargo would have to shift in order to bring down a 744?

that vid is horrific to say the least ... my prayers are with the families of the crew ...


User currently offlinefdxgirl From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 74 posts, RR: 5
Reply 153, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 44735 times:

with all due respect to all who perished in this horrifying event. does anyone else find it extremely odd that the said camera mounted car just happened to be in the "perfect" spot to capture it all? just sayin.....

User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1144 posts, RR: 14
Reply 154, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 44436 times:

Quoting uncgso (Reply 158):
how much cargo would have to shift in order to bring down a 744?

Interesting question. I think pretty much weight must be moving backwards pretty fast to make it stall like this. But a lot must have gone wrong during loading in that case. Cargo has in that case not been secured properly.

Another possibility is control problems because of some sort of mechanical failure. And what if the elevators got stuck in an unfortunate upward position because of debris preventing them to move after lift off. I think that happened to a DC-8 at JFK long ago. Perhaps something (FOD) got stuck and prevented elevator movement. Perhaps there is a lot of stuff blowing around when a 744 takes off in an airport like this. Just speculation...

[Edited 2013-04-30 22:46:40]


747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlineogre727 From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 712 posts, RR: 2
Reply 155, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 44357 times:

Quoting fdxgirl (Reply 159):

Why people love conspiracies so much is beyond me. The "just sayin'" bit makes it sound even dumber in my brain, but thats just me.



Sigh
User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1144 posts, RR: 14
Reply 156, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 44489 times:

Here is what happened at JFK to a DC-8. Could this have happened to this 744?

"TIA was involved in a single fatal accident, involving a Douglas DC-8 N8963T ferry flight, with eight flight attendants and three cockpit crewmembers on board, en route from John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York City to Washington Dulles International Airport. On September 8, 1970 a foreign object became wedged between the right elevator and horizontal stabilizer, blown there by backwash from the aircraft preceding it on the taxiway. The problem was not detected, and the aircraft crashed upon takeoff with the loss of all 11 on board."



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 157, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 44224 times:

Quoting fdxgirl (Reply 159):
does anyone else find it extremely odd that the said camera mounted car just happened to be in the "perfect" spot to capture it all? just sayin.....

Not surprising really. The use of dashcams is a widespread practice nowadays, specially in some countries. If you check YouTube you will see literally hundreds ( maybe thousands ) of car crashes, trucks flipping over and all kind of "wild stuff" filmed with dashcams. There are several modern devices available, with capabilities to work as dashcams, some of them really cheap compared with the times when I was young ( and you need a suitcase full of money to have a handycam ). This will be more and more common in the future.

Rgds.
G



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2679 posts, RR: 14
Reply 158, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 44268 times:

Quoting fdxgirl (Reply 159):
with all due respect to all who perished in this horrifying event. does anyone else find it extremely odd that the said camera mounted car just happened to be in the "perfect" spot to capture it all? just sayin.....

The camera mount to this vehicle was in the perfect spot to capture it all.

That cannot be said for dozens of other vehicles on the field.

Analogous to the saying, "even a broken clock is right twice a day."

Any spot these days is generally scanned by some camera, in any densely populated area such as a military installation.


User currently offlineRIXrat From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 159, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 44303 times:

The driver whose dash-cam took that horrible video must have been a security contractor, because about half way into it, his dog starts yelping and he hushes it up. Looks like a security officer with a K9, but I may be wrong.

User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1144 posts, RR: 14
Reply 160, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 44035 times:

And there is that TIA DC-8 accident that could be interesting to study when looking at what happened to the National Air Cargo 747-400...

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19700908-1



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 161, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 44128 times:

As traumatizing as this footage is, it would be a lot more horrific if the sounds - turbines and impact - had been captured on the video.

rfields5421 - thanks for a clear and compelling post.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy26 From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 162, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 43876 times:

Never good to hear about these beautiful machines going down. The video is just shocking...

I became an official member of a.net just to be able to express my thoughts and prayers to the crew on-board and their grieving families.


User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1144 posts, RR: 14
Reply 163, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 43808 times:

And here is the Fine Air DC-8 accident because of cargo movement:

"On August 7, 1997, Fine Air flight 101, a Cargo DC-8-61F registration # N27UA, en route from Miami to Santo Domingo, in the Dominican Republic, suffered sudden movement of cargo materials in the aft cargo hold while on take off. The aircraft's nose rose steeply due to the sudden uneven weight distribution caused by shifting boxes of denim material that had not been securely fastened. Furthermore, the aircraft was approximately 2700 kg overloaded.

The pilots, departing out of the former Runway 27R (now 26L) attempted to recover but the aircraft stalled and crashed onto a field adjacent the Miami City Rail Yard less than a mile from the airport. The aircraft missed two factories, a commercial building, and the Budweiser Distribution Center in unincorporated Miami, Florida between the populated residential suburbs of Miami Springs and Doral, FL."



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlinebeechtobus From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 273 posts, RR: 0
Reply 164, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 43429 times:

RIP to the crew and thoughts and prayers to their families.

Anyone else notice the dog yelp at 1:33? That seemed a little random.


User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2583 posts, RR: 4
Reply 165, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 42341 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 167):
As traumatizing as this footage is, it would be a lot more horrific if the sounds - turbines and impact - had been captured on the video.

They are, just turn up your volume. You can clearly hear the roar of the engines (no doubt the throttles had been firewalled) and the sickening thud of the impact.

[Edited 2013-05-01 01:16:37]


arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1112 posts, RR: 3
Reply 166, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 41673 times:

Damn that's sad - the crew had no chance at that height.

At least it was over very quickly for them.

Incredible video, reminds me of that B-52 vid.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 167, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 41559 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 156):
Pilots don't panic, don't give in to terror. They keep working to try to save the plane, and themselves.


As SlamClick once said, "If I die in the cockpit, I expect to die very busy."

Quoting uncgso (Reply 158):
how much cargo would have to shift in order to bring down a 744?

Not only how much, but how quickly and how far is the question. Even a comparatively small load like a car flying from the front all the way to the back will shift the CG dramatically. As familiar from middle school physics, the force is the mass times the distance from the CG.

If this was indeed a load shift, it could not have happened at a worse time. Low, slow, heavy and draggy.

In "Fate is the Hunter", Ernest Gann has a hair raising story about a wartime transport flight in what I believe was a DC-3. The cargo was girders of some kind. At rotation the load shifted back and both pilots had to push the control columns forward with all their strength and keep them there. No hydraulic augmentation in those days either. Thankfully, the rest of the crew managed to shift the load forward.

[Edited 2013-05-01 02:02:39]

[Edited 2013-05-01 02:11:14]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8643 posts, RR: 75
Reply 168, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 41337 times:

Quoting MrBuzzcut (Reply 108):

Just out of curiosity, who investigates and issues an official report on an accident like this...a US carrier in a foreign country operating out of a US military controlled air base. NTSB? Air Force? Host country's civil aviation authority (which I don't imagine is the best in Afghanistan if they have one at all)...some combination of the three?

Contrary to some people think, Afghanistan does have a government, foreign powers are not have free reign to do what they like, and it does have its own aviation authority. This was a civil flight by a US carrier in Afghanistan.

This will be investigated by the Afghanistan Ministry of Transportation and Commercial Aviation. It is normal for the state of manufacture, state of registration, sate of issue of the TCDS, the operator, and manufacturer to participate in the investigation.

In short, this will be lead by the Afghanistan Ministry of Transportation and Commercial Aviation with the assistance of the NTSB, Boeing, and National.

As for data readouts of the of the various recorders, I have seen cases where governments in this region choose to use less obvious avenues to get the data extracted as they may think the US is already too much involved and seek some independent avenue. I would doubt they have the equipment in country, so they may turn to Israel, France, Canada, Netherlands, UK, or even Australia to do the data extraction. The data extraction just just that, reading the data from the devices and maybe generating a flight path reconstruction based up the data. The actual analysis and release of information would be carried out by the Afghanistan Ministry of Transportation and Commercial Aviation, they would get technical assistance from the NTSB, Boeing, and National.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 169, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 41241 times:
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After I saw that video of the crash. I could not believe my eyes. It was so surreal from my point of view the plane just dropped down like a stone.

R.I.P. to the crew there was nothing they could have done to prevent this crash.



Flying high and low
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 170, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 41197 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 156):
Pilots don't panic, don't give in to terror. They keep working to try to save the plane, and themselves. It is clear to me from the video that the crew of this plane was trying to minimize the impact. They were in panic or terror.

I think its fair to say AF443 showed us a bit of panic in the cockpit. In this instance these poor guys had no chance to regain control.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 156):
The video was likely from a US military contractor escorting the white van across the area. More than likely the driver was a former US military person who has seen death up close. It is also very likely this isn't the first airplane he saw crash at that airport.

Not that it matters but the voice clearly had an English accent.



BV
User currently offlineFlyer732 From Namibia, joined Nov 1999, 1359 posts, RR: 22
Reply 171, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 40919 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 174):
Contrary to some people think, Afghanistan does have a government, foreign powers are not have free reign to do what they like, and it does have its own aviation authority. This was a civil flight by a US carrier in Afghanistan.

Only thing that may change any of that is the fact that it came down within the grounds of a major US military base.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 172, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 41177 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 176):
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 156):
Pilots don't panic, don't give in to terror. They keep working to try to save the plane, and themselves. It is clear to me from the video that the crew of this plane was trying to minimize the impact. They were in panic or terror.

I think its fair to say AF443 showed us a bit of panic in the cockpit. In this instance these poor guys had no chance to regain control.

Depends how you define panic. The crew of AF447 was disoriented, disorganized and making very poor decisions. Probably very anxious and afraid by the end. However, very importantly, they never gave up.

This crew does not seem to have had a chance (the investigation will tell us). However I doubt they gave up. I'd bet good money they fought until the moment of impact.

[Edited 2013-05-01 02:34:05]

[Edited 2013-05-01 02:35:44]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1112 posts, RR: 3
Reply 173, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 38331 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 177):
wever, very importantly, they never gave up.

I believe the quote was...

"'Damn it, we're going to crash, it can't be true!"


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7345 posts, RR: 32
Reply 174, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 37898 times:

Quoting fdxgirl (Reply 158):
does anyone else find it extremely odd that the said camera mounted car just happened to be in the "perfect" spot to capture it all?

No - it is not extremely odd. It would be odd if no one captured some video.

re - dash board camera - how many stories have you seen about military or other security contractors being involved in incidents with local citizens. I'm sure every military contractor vehicle in Afghanistan, and a great many to all of the military vehicles in Afghanistan have dashboard cameras.

re - Location - the Google Earth image of the airport is from 2009, a bit dated - but you can easily see how the perimeter road is going to focus a dashboard camera down the runway. Remember the climb and stall occurred over the runway. The plane crashed just barely - maybe 200-250m from the end of the runway - and even closer to that perimeter road.

That north perimeter road, and the south perimeter road are the only ways to get from one side to the other side of the base without exiting the base into the civilian, unsecured, areas of the surrounding community. (Also note the GE image shows a B747 loading with a ramp to the side cargo door at the south large cargo pad.)

re - Perfect spot - this wasn't the perfect spot. This was shot from near the runway end and distorts the aircraft movements. It also doesn't capture the critical rotation, takeoff and pitch up - which would provide clues to why the crash occurred. By the time we see the aircraft in this video - the incident has already happened. The plane is in serious trouble and unrecoverable in my opinion.

The poster who first put this video up said the video proves that enemy action did not bring the plane down. It doesn't prove that. It only shows that the aircraft had not obvious external damage and was not trailing the smoke which would be normal from a missile impact on a aircraft being shot down.

This video is missing the most critical part of the flight. Yes, it is certainly intense with the last seconds of the flight.

Also note this is the sixth notable crash at this airport in the past 11 years - the second involving a non-military aircraft.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 175):
Not that it matters but the voice clearly had an English accent.

Sorry - my hearing is about shot. Too much time too close to jet engines.

Anyway - the UK also has troops and contractors at the base.

Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 176):
Only thing that may change any of that is the fact that it came down within the grounds of a major US military base.

It's a civilian flight. It comes under the jurisdiction of the local nation authorities. That was announced in the major news media even before the third post on this thread.

As Zeke says -

Quoting zeke (Reply 173):
This will be investigated by the Afghanistan Ministry of Transportation and Commercial Aviation. It is normal for the state of manufacture, state of registration, sate of issue of the TCDS, the operator, and manufacturer to participate in the investigation.

In short, this will be lead by the Afghanistan Ministry of Transportation and Commercial Aviation with the assistance of the NTSB, Boeing, and National.

There are plenty of past incidents under similar procedures.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...ef.aspx?ev_id=20100924X92215&key=1

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...ef.aspx?ev_id=20120116X72519&key=1


User currently offlinebtblue From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 578 posts, RR: 4
Reply 175, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 37837 times:

Dash cams are widely used around the base in Bagram. They're used to document any unauthorised activity and for security purposes - after all, there are many threats.

What's the maximum/recommended takeoff speed for Bagram? A 747? As I understand it, aircraft aim to climb fairly quickly to avoid any possible fire but the gear would have been retracted quickly.

Seeing as the gear is down on crashing - may imply the problem occurred immediately just after rotation. With the higher than usual forward speed pushing the the aircraft higher/vertical until it dropped.

I could only find this as an example of a takeoff... to give an illustration from behind the possible National 744.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1rtr2X063Q



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