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UA's Curious Y Drinks Policy  
User currently offlinestratacruiser From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 102 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 15897 times:

Almost eighteen months after merging operations, United still hasn't rationalized the CO and UA policies on charging for alcohol in international Y class. On SFO-HKG and ICN-SFO flights (sUA) last week the booze was free in Y, but flying EWR-LHR (sCO) a few weeks earlier passengers had to pay for any alcohol. The dicotomy is particularly noticeable if one makes an RT on each subsidiary - connecting EWR one way and IAD the other for instance. Hope when they finally standardize, its to the UA practice, rather than CO's. Cheers!

Dave

102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6002 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 15885 times:

Quoting stratacruiser (Thread starter):
Almost eighteen months after merging operations, United still hasn't rationalized the CO and UA policies on charging for alcohol in international Y class. On SFO-HKG and ICN-SFO flights (sUA) last week the booze was free in Y, but flying EWR-LHR (sCO) a few weeks earlier passengers had to pay for any alcohol. The dicotomy is particularly noticeable if one makes an RT on each subsidiary - connecting EWR one way and IAD the other for instance. Hope when they finally standardize, its to the UA practice, rather than CO's. Cheers!

They have standardized actually....transpacific and intra-Asia/Micronesia flights offer free beer/wine flights to and from Japan have free Sake as well.....all other regions you have to pay for alcohol in Y.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 15816 times:

Quoting United1 (Reply 1):

  

And it's clearly stated in the inflight magazine.



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlinedtwlax From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 807 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 15316 times:

Why the discrimination? Why do transatlantic passengers have to pay for drinks?
Does not make sense.


User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6002 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 15210 times:

Quoting dtwlax (Reply 3):
Why do transatlantic passengers have to pay for drinks?

That's the way that UA chooses for it to be... 

pmCO charged for alcohol on all international flights, pmUA had free alcohol on transpacific and intra-asia flights. The current policy is something of a hybrid of both policies....ie you have to pay for hard liquor on transpacific flights now but beer/wine/sake is free.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25719 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 15098 times:

Quoting dtwlax (Reply 3):

Why the discrimination? Why do transatlantic passengers have to pay for drinks?
Does not make sense.

Sure it does - different competitive dynamics in different markets.

Same reason why excess baggage fees are different between routes, or fare and their rules can be extremely different market to market.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4108 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 15080 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 2):

I flew LAX-SYD two weeks ago, and drinks in Y were certainly NOT free, and the mag made no mention of regional differentiation of the policy.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14954 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):

True but now they are behind their peers on this policy. Even US will be offering free beer and wine soon on all intercontinental long haul flights.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2207 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14952 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Sure it does - different competitive dynamics in different markets.

Not really sure how you can substantiate this when noting Delta and American have been providing free beer and wine in Y on ALL transcontinental flights to Asia, Europe and deep South America for several years now. US Airways also just announced last week that wine will be free on all Europe, South America and Israel flights starting Wednesday (May 1).

Honestly, beer and wine costs the airline pennies. The boxed wine is usually so bad anyways nobody wants to consume it in excessive quantities, at least per my recent observations. Charging for liquor, however definitely does make sense.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 6):
I flew LAX-SYD two weeks ago, and drinks in Y were certainly NOT free, and the mag made no mention of regional differentiation of the policy.

I also agree with the OP that the CO/UA policy is probably NOT as transparent as one might think. AKA, I wouldn't be surprised if a passenger is charged flying IAH-NRT or EWR-HKG/PEK/PVG vs on a flight from any sUA hub to Asia. I do know that from first hand experience, UA charges for all alcohol in Y on the India flights (having flown EWRDEL last August). Then again, India flights are categorized as "transatlantic."



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14721 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 6):
I flew LAX-SYD two weeks ago, and drinks in Y were certainly NOT free, and the mag made no mention of regional differentiation of the policy.

Obviously, you didn't read reply #2, to which I was referring. Beer and wine are free on trans-pacific flights.

Also, it was in Hemispheres magazine in Feb when I flew SFO-SYD and in March when I flew SYD-LAX and it was in there last night when I flew LAS-IAH.

Page 158. http://www.ink-live.com/emagazines/h...-2013/files/mobile/tablet.html#158



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4108 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14565 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 9):

If it is indeed the policy, it is not being enforced correctly. An announcement was made after take off that alcoholic beverages were $7 in economy. Point is, it's not consistent.


User currently offlineewr767 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12422 times:

Um I don't know if you've heard. United is a business that's answers to shareholders. That business is to make money and be competitive in markets that we serve, PERIOD.

User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12202 times:

Quoting ewr767 (Reply 11):

By your own words then, they are not competitive in this aspect. Just comes off as being a little cheap.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineTomFoolery From Austria, joined Jan 2004, 529 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12203 times:

Lets remember, UA is the carrier who planned to roll out a policy of charging for meals on Trans Atlantic flights a few years back. Due to negative response, this idea was scrapped.

It is no shock that alcohol comes for a fee.

As for the trans pac, it is not the first time that I heard about variation in sales policies of beer and wine. Sometimes, it is a simple matter of reminding the F/A that on Trans Pac flights the rules are different.

Quoting ewr767 (Reply 11):
Um I don't know if you've heard. United is a business that's answers to shareholders. That business is to make money and be competitive in markets that we serve, PERIOD.

Yes, every time we buy a ticket, pay the fuel surcharge, pay for an aisle seat, pay for our bag to be gate checked because no more bin space, buy a set of headphones, whatever... We are painfully aware that air carriers are not charities.

When they list amenities which one is offered along with the transport however, it is reasonable for one to expect these amenities as stated, be it a movie, a reclining seat, a beer, a pair of pink slippers, whatever.
If I went to a nice restaurant, ordered steak and lobster, and got a hamburger and shrimp, Would I have to suck it up because the restaurant is in the business to eliminate hunger, and generate revenue? Certainly not.

We have carriers who offer varying degrees of services/frills/goodies, and consumers are free to purchase what they feel meets their needs. If UA offers what you need for what you feel is an agreeable price...go for it. If Ryan Air offers the price but not your desired level of services/goodies/frills, you are responsible for your own disappointment.

To this end, I too find the UA policy curiously complex, but it seems the same with baggage policies too.

Tom



Paper makes an airplane fly
User currently offlineFreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11908 times:
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Incidentally, the onboard entertainment charges on domestic are different, as well. On the former pm/UA equipment, there is just the basic entertainment system, which is free. On former pm/CO equipment, there is DirectTV where there are over 100 channels, there is a charge. That policy makes sense.

As for international trips, it makes no sense for the difference on the pricing for alcohol. SFO-NRT and SFO-LHR are similar distances. Japanese and Brits drink roughly the same amount, in a general sense. So why the discrimination??


User currently offlineAusA380 From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11837 times:

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 14):
As for international trips, it makes no sense for the difference on the pricing for alcohol. SFO-NRT and SFO-LHR are similar distances. Japanese and Brits drink roughly the same amount, in a general sense. So why the discrimination??

I think you will find it is the competitive forces - The AustralAsian airlines tend not to charge for drinks, so the US competitors have to respond. There may not be such competitive forces on the transAtlantic routes.


User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11743 times:

Quoting AusA380 (Reply 15):
I think you will find it is the competitive forces - The AustralAsian airlines tend not to charge for drinks, so the US competitors have to respond. There may not be such competitive forces on the transAtlantic routes.

I don't know of any other mainline carrier that charges for alcoholic drinks on trans atlantic services.
How can British Airways and Virgin Atlantic, Air France, Alitalia, Lufthansa, Swiss, LOT etc etc etc offer a complimentary alcoholic beverage service and United can't? And UA is not a low fare airline either.

In 2009 my father and I traveled to San Francisco with UA in Economy Gold- we'd paid extra thinking it would be similar to BA's premium economy or Virgin's but when we asked for wine with our dinner she then said "that will be $10 please".
At first we thought she was joking but quickly we realised that she wasn't.. On the flight back we changed planes in Frankfurt and on the 1 hour 30 minute hop Lufthansa couldn't offer enough to make your flight more comfortable- beer, wine, spirits, you name it. Even on my 50 minute domestic flights to Scotland you get a full bar service with BA.



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently onlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 492 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11694 times:

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 14):
As for international trips, it makes no sense for the difference on the pricing for alcohol. SFO-NRT and SFO-LHR are similar distances. Japanese and Brits drink roughly the same amount, in a general sense. So why the discrimination??

I think it is UA being clueless about the business they are in. The have LCC levels of service at a premium price and high overheads. My last flight with UA was about 2 years ago from BOS to SFO and I was shocked about the state of the 757 and level of service for a 6 hour trip while my company paid USD$700 for the one way fare - seated at the second last row while being star gold and probably paying the highest fare of all passengers on board. I really can not remember a flight this bad ever.
I think trans pacific they put alcohol back in because having the guts to charge for that on a 12 hour flight while being a "full service airline" is just unimaginable in Asia and I am pretty sure they would have lost corporate contracts for that reason (high level asia staff fly often in Y, while similar level of staff in US, Europe and Asia would fly J).


User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11362 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 7):
True but now they are behind their peers on this policy. Even US will be offering free beer and wine soon on all intercontinental long haul flights.

This will probably be what forces UA to roll back their own policy. After US's upgrade (May 1st is the day), the only airlines in the trans-Atlantic market which still charge for beer and wine will be cheap and dirty charters.

By the way, the F/As at US seem to already be applying the new policy, at least for your first drink. I flew trans-Atlantic with them last week, and both ways I was not charged.

Westbound, I asked for a beer with lunch, credit card in hand. The F/A handed it to me with the words "I'll come back for that next week."

Eastbound, I asked for a red wine and a cognac with dinner, again credit card in hand. "That's all right sir, enjoy your meal."

Nice! It probably helped that I was sitting right at the front of the cabin in seats usually reserved for frequent flyers (I hold Star Alliance Gold status, though not from US). I don't know what my chances of that would have been had I been seated in 47E.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10344 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 9):
Obviously, you didn't read reply #2, to which I was referring. Beer and wine are free on trans-pacific flights.

Is it, then, your contention that LAX-SYD would not be considered transpac? Perhaps, a geography lesson is in order.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 6):
I flew LAX-SYD two weeks ago, and drinks in Y were certainly NOT free, and the mag made no mention of regional differentiation of the policy.



Sic 'em bears
User currently offlinejreuschl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 549 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10343 times:

Are there other foreign carriers with US service that charge for alcohol? I know AB does not.

User currently offlineEIRules From Ireland, joined Aug 2007, 793 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10117 times:

Yeah I'm afraid EI charge for alcohol in Y transatlantic. Personally I think for the extra euro it may cost them they should include it!


Next Flights: EI DUB-LHR A320, BA LHR-SFO B744, UA SFO-LAS A320, BA LAS-LHR B744, EI LHR-DUB A320
User currently offline757ops From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9594 times:

As a premier platinum member of mileage Plus I think that such frequent travellers should be able to get free alcohol in Y upon showing your frequent flyer card. I am based in London and fly 80000+ miles a year on UA metal and really despise paying for a beer or spirit on a 9hr flight to the US!

User currently offlinegizmonc From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9373 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 16):
I don't know of any other mainline carrier that charges for alcoholic drinks on trans atlantic services.
How can British Airways and Virgin Atlantic, Air France, Alitalia, Lufthansa, Swiss, LOT etc etc etc offer a complimentary alcoholic beverage service and United can't? And UA is not a low fare airline either.

Quote from www.delta.com :

Alcoholic Beverages
A selection of complimentary beers, wines, spirits and cocktails are offered in the First Class cabin. And for our Delta Shuttle travelers, complimentary beer and wine is offered throughout the cabin and complimentary cocktails are offered in First Class on all Delta Shuttle flights.

I flew ATL DUB in Jan and there was a charge for alcohol in COACH.


User currently offlineORDJOE From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9248 times:

Quoting United1 (Reply 4):
ie you have to pay for hard liquor on transpacific flights now but beer/wine/sake is free.

As of Nov 2011 liquor was free (they even had some good stuff like Gran Marnier, Jim Beam black and a few others) but alas no more.

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 20):

Are there other foreign carriers with US service that charge for alcohol? I know AB does not.

This is only a guess but those european airlines that are pretty much leisure oriented (Condor, Thomson? and the like) would charge.

I am almost certain Icelandair you have to pay for booze in Y.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7211 posts, RR: 57
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9576 times:

Quoting EIRules (Reply 21):

Yeah I'm afraid EI charge for alcohol in Y transatlantic. Personally I think for the extra euro it may cost them they should include it!

I've no problem paying for spirits on Long Haul flights. That way, I pay for the quality I want, rather than be given undrinkable red colored product of Uzbekistan cuvee speciale.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9510 times:

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 23):
Alcoholic Beverages
A selection of complimentary beers, wines, spirits and cocktails are offered in the First Class cabin. And for our Delta Shuttle travelers, complimentary beer and wine is offered throughout the cabin and complimentary cocktails are offered in First Class on all Delta Shuttle flights.

I flew ATL DUB in Jan and there was a charge for alcohol in COACH.

I read that DL's policy is to offer complimentary alcoholic beverages in Y on all flights exceeding 6 hours in duration?



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineCoachClass From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9482 times:

[

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 20):
Are there other foreign carriers with US service that charge for alcohol? I know AB does not.

SAS Scandinavian. From what I've read on their website and heard from others, you get a free drink with a meal, but afterwards, ALL drinks, alcoholic or even soft drinks, are charged! My guess is that Icelandair also charges for alcohol, but they're a LCC essentially.


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9395 times:

Quoting ewr767 (Reply 11):
Um I don't know if you've heard. United is a business that's answers to shareholders. That business is to make money and be competitive in markets that we serve, PERIOD.

That isnt an answer as to why there is inconsistent policy why they are charging in some places but not others.


User currently offlineewr767 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9150 times:

It's called what the market dictates. Get over it ford motor doesn't charge the same price for a sun roof as Buick. It the market dictates that people will pay for it. Then so be it. Intra Asia if the market does not due to whatever reason. Then so be it. Why is it our industry is the only industry not allowed to adapt and change with the times. Since when have you gotten a free drink on amtrack. Pay for what you want just like any other industry. And since people are now coming on board and putting thief bare feet on the first class screens and don't think twice about. Recognize this industry has changed and will never go back to what it was. Also their are many things the company is looking at to increase revenue. Seeing as how the market will not permit fares that actually cover the cost to transport you, the revenue has to come from somewhere. For instance charging for business first meals in coach is one of them I know the company is looking at.

User currently offlinenwa744tpa From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 67 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9167 times:

Recent new policy on DL. Free beer ,wine, spirits on ALL international flights in Economy Comfort, as well as JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO nonstops each way. International Economy, it is free beer and wine only. The employees at United are probably getting so many new revisions on policy that it might take some time to get everyone on the same page regarding everything.

User currently offlinebeachbum1970 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9038 times:

A little off topic, but I suppose this could still fall under "UA's Curious Y Drinks Policy." Just flew round trip DEN-BOS last week in Y and on both flights the flight attendants didn't give us the whole can of soda, just the cup. I was a little surprised, UA has always given you the whole can for as long as I can remember. I hope this is not the new UA policy going forward. Seems very cheap.

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17649 posts, RR: 46
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9016 times:

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 17):

I think it is UA being clueless about the business they are in.

   Congrats UA, US offers more service in Y now.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3148 posts, RR: 7
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8959 times:

Quoting AusA380 (Reply 15):
I think you will find it is the competitive forces - The AustralAsian airlines tend not to charge for drinks, so the US competitors have to respond. There may not be such competitive forces on the transAtlantic routes.

Interesting. NW had exactly the opposite policy: free drinks Trans-Atlantic (to match KL) and a charge to Japan.


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1842 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8919 times:
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Until UA starts feeling the heat either from frequent flyers or from the flying public, they will continue with these dysfunctional service differences between various destinations. Like many airlines, UA will push as far as they think the public will go in terms of higher fees and reduced services.

People have a choice which is why I'm transitioning away from UA. All of my international destinations have European or Asian competitors for UA out of SFO. The differences in service is larger than UA should allow but I'm not sure management cares.

[Edited 2013-05-01 07:27:00]

User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2182 posts, RR: 5
Reply 35, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8842 times:

Quoting United1 (Reply 1):
They have standardized actually....transpacific and intra-Asia/Micronesia flights offer free beer/wine flights to and from Japan have free Sake as well.....all other regions you have to pay for alcohol in Y.

Yes, and it is not 'curious". Just cheap, or low frills.

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 31):
A little off topic, but I suppose this could still fall under "UA's Curious Y Drinks Policy." Just flew round trip DEN-BOS last week in Y and on both flights the flight attendants didn't give us the whole can of soda, just the cup.

Well, maybe that's 'cause they are a company from Chicago, and they call it pop there!   



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlinekevin752 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 727 posts, RR: 4
Reply 36, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8407 times:

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 13):
Lets remember, UA is the carrier who planned to roll out a policy of charging for meals on Trans Atlantic flights a few years back. Due to negative response, this idea was scrapped.

After flying to Europe for the first time in several years this past fall and was seated in Y back to USA . I would have gladly paid for food in Y class if I was getting a much better product than what was handed out. The meal was awful. I would pay 10-12.00 for a meal if I was going to get something that tasted and looked appealing.



"Keep Climbing"
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 37, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8330 times:

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 23):
Alcoholic Beverages
A selection of complimentary beers, wines, spirits and cocktails are offered in the First Class cabin. And for our Delta Shuttle travelers, complimentary beer and wine is offered throughout the cabin and complimentary cocktails are offered in First Class on all Delta Shuttle flights.

I flew ATL DUB in Jan and there was a charge for alcohol in COACH

That is the domestic policy. If you read further, you will see that beer and wine is free on all intercontinental flights over 5 hours (basically all of deep SA, TATL/TPAC, etc.). There is a charge for SPIRITS, i.e. hard liquor. ALL alcohol is free if you're seated in Economy Comfort on the above mentioned flights and JFK-LAX/SFO.

Delta has not charged for beer of wine on international flights in years.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently onlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 492 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8320 times:

Maybe UA should learn from EK: give people a couple of drinks and they don't mind being 10 abreast on a 777 anymore.

Actually i am quite serious about this one: if I have to pull out my credit card in the middle of a 10 hour flight, nothing else matters anymore - I just have one opinion and and that is this flight is shit. And I think EK are masters of managing perception. They run a Ryanair like airline which everyone thinks is great.


User currently offlinehohd From United States of America, joined May 2008, 433 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8318 times:

UA is a cheap airline for service (worse than many LCCs), but not for price. They lost money the first quarter inspite of skimping on everything. That indicates where they stand. I think UA should start offering free beer/wine for economy passengers on all international flights as well, since they are the only major airline (foreign or domestic, except Iceland Air) to continue to charge for beer/wine in all international except transpacific. Even the transpacific is not consistent.

User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1448 posts, RR: 12
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8313 times:

Sometimes I wonder why I've stuck wit UA for so many years now, even though I've even been offered a free Elite Status to jump ship to OneWorld by AA!

Point is, UA's policy on alcohol is very inconsistent. Having flown them a lot international, I can tell you I gave up on trying to figure out which routes have free booze!



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8236 times:

Quoting ewr767 (Reply 29):
It's called what the market dictates. Get over it ford motor doesn't charge the same price for a sun roof as Buick. It the market dictates that people will pay for it. Then so be it. Intra Asia if the market does not due to whatever reason. Then so be it. Why is it our industry is the only industry not allowed to adapt and change with the times. Since when have you gotten a free drink on amtrack. Pay for what you want just like any other industry. And since people are now coming on board and putting thief bare feet on the first class screens and don't think twice about. Recognize this industry has changed and will never go back to what it was. Also their are many things the company is looking at to increase revenue. Seeing as how the market will not permit fares that actually cover the cost to transport you, the revenue has to come from somewhere. For instance charging for business first meals in coach is one of them I know the company is looking at.



You're still missing the point. UA is actually going AGAINST the grain right now...

Not one of their peers charge for beer or wine in the back on these flights. But that is also besides the point too. They can have whichever policy they choose which I think is your point but the OP's original point was that UA does it one way one time and another another time. Giving him the perception that there were two policies for pmCO and pmUA.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7211 posts, RR: 57
Reply 42, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8184 times:

Quoting kevin752 (Reply 36):
he meal was awful. I would pay 10-12.00 for a meal if I was going to get something that tasted and looked appealing.

Fully agree.

Some European airlines have done that (KL, AF, EI spring to mind) - an option to upgrade your meal to something edible.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/aer-l...-meals-trans-atlantic-flights.html

That is an EI $20 meal upgrade.

Fillet of beef, sautéed potatoes with onion, spinach, mushrooms, topped with tomato tartar, served with peppercorn sauce. Chocolate mousse dessert (westbound), cheesecake (eastbound).



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17649 posts, RR: 46
Reply 43, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8140 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 42):
Quoting kevin752 (Reply 36):he meal was awful. I would pay 10-12.00 for a meal if I was going to get something that tasted and looked appealing.Fully agree.

Yeah but people say things like this ALL the time and then never put their money where their mouth is. If they did then you'd have incredible IFE, meals, and wifi on every flight, instead of take-rates that approach zero.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 980 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8067 times:

How many United frequently fliers have voice their concerns directly to United about this issue? I ask the question because after the merger closed many pmUA fliers who were now on TransPac pmCO flights complained directly to UA about having to pay for beer and wine on pmCO flights. Now the policy is clear on TransPac flights and intra-Asia flights beer and wine is free in Y and United has gone to great length to make sure CO flight attendants now this policy. If a CO flight attendant is trying to charge you for beer or wine on a TransPac flight I would suggest telling them in a respectable manner that the beer and wine are now free.

Coming to this website and venting your anger at UA great but ultimately its meaningless because I am sure UA management is not reading a.netters although they probably should because most of the criticism United gets on this website is valid and accurate and if United took the critiques to heart United could become a great airline. However I sure UA is not reading this or any other social forum so for those of you who are still UA frequent fliers I would suggest voicing your concern directly to United. This approach has worked many times before, example when United decided to charge passengers in coach out of IAD for meals on TransAtlantic flights a few years ago, when United place a 737 on the HKG-SIN route, the differences in the drink policy on TransPac routes and on many other issues. While venting your frustration with UA on this website makes for some good reading if you want the policy to change, if you want free beer spirits and wine on all international flights then take the fight directly to UA. It is no question this merger has been screwed up from the beginning and a lot of the policies and product offerings are outdated and not competitive with what other airlines are doing, but the only way to get United management to hear what you have to say and then make the appropriate changes is to voice your concerns to the people who actually have the power to make those changes.

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 14):
Incidentally, the onboard entertainment charges on domestic are different, as well. On the former pm/UA equipment, there is just the basic entertainment system, which is free. On former pm/CO equipment, there is DirectTV where there are over 100 channels, there is a charge. That policy makes sense.

This policy does make sense because DirectTV cost money it doesn't matter whether you are in your house on onboard a plane at 35,000 feet you are not getting DirectTV for free. There is a cost that pmCO and now the combined UA has to pay to DirectTV for the use of the equipment onboard the aircraft, just like you have to pay for the use (rental) of the equipment and the satellite dish that is attached to your house and then there is the television programing that must be paid for as well just like you do on the ground DirectTV passes the cost along to the customer in this case its not a homeowner its United. So it doesn't matter whether you have satellite or cable TV in your home it is not free, so why then do you believe that it should be free just because you are on a airplane? I WOULD agree with your criticism of this UA policy if UA was charging people to watch the entertainment on pmUA narrow body aircraft because that entertainment does not cost pmUA anything and charging people to watch it would be completely wrong. But asking a customers to pay a small fee if they CHOOSE to watch live DirectTV on a pmCO aircraft is the right thing to do.


User currently onlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 492 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7949 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
Yeah but people say things like this ALL the time and then never put their money where their mouth is. If they did then you'd have incredible IFE, meals, and wifi on every flight, instead of take-rates that approach zero.

I put my money where my mouth is and pay up to 30% more to get decent service (last case for holiday: SIN-AMS-SIN KL SGD$1100, SQ SGD$1450, I flew SQ and it was not me alone but 3 persons).


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7876 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
Yeah but people say things like this ALL the time and then never put their money where their mouth is. If they did then you'd have incredible IFE, meals, and wifi on every flight, instead of take-rates that approach zero.

If the take rate for better food really "approached zero," I'd imagine DineFresh and A la Carte meals would have been abolished.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3148 posts, RR: 7
Reply 47, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7775 times:

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 31):
Just flew round trip DEN-BOS last week in Y and on both flights the flight attendants didn't give us the whole can of soda, just the cup.

All you have to do is ask for the whole can. All carriers have this policy now, I believe, for only the cup. AS just gives the cups on west coast flight. I just ask for the whole can and it's not a problem at all. They give it to me.


User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1716 posts, RR: 3
Reply 48, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7754 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 8):
The boxed wine is usually so bad anyways

UA doesn't serve boxed wine on any flights. I flew to COS last month on UAX from ORD and was served a decent FRENCH red. In a bottle.

French wine on UAX, who would've thought.


User currently onlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7691 times:

If you don't want to be charged for beer/wine TATL just fly DL. They seem to not care very much.


"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3148 posts, RR: 7
Reply 50, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7673 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 49):
If you don't want to be charged for beer/wine TATL just fly DL. They seem to not care very much.

I think that's because their J.V. agreements with AF and KL require them to have the same standards of service. AF and KL give free drinks in Coach for trans-atlantic flights.


User currently onlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 51, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7645 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 50):


If that's the case you'd figure UA would get onboard with some of their closer Star partners that give out free booze in coach TATL-- LH and AC for instance.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlinehohd From United States of America, joined May 2008, 433 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7447 times:

According to the JV UA, LH and AC are supposed to share all revenues (tickets, baggage, onboard). Then I dont see why UA is still charging for beer/wine on transatlantic. They have to share this revenue with LH and AC also, and do not get anything in return from LH and AC on the onboard wine/beer sales. They are getting bad publicity for something they get very little revenue.

And many have addressed this to the UA management directly and to the FAs too. Some FAs do give free wine/beer occasionally on long flights to Y passengers.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 53, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7418 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 50):
I think that's because their J.V. agreements with AF and KL require them to have the same standards of service. AF and KL give free drinks in Coach for trans-atlantic flights.

Not exactly... Before DL got wrapped up in the JV/ATI with AF/KLM, they were serving beer and wine for free in the back. This was even before the merger with NW.

[Edited 2013-05-01 09:16:30]


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3148 posts, RR: 7
Reply 54, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7232 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 53):
Before DL got wrapped up in the JV/ATI with AF/KLM, they were serving beer and wine for free in the back.

Oh really? I heard differently. I heard that they didn't not serve free beer and wine in the back, except on the JNB flight.

I guess it doesn't matter. Important thing is what they do now.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4296 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7184 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 7):

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):

True but now they are behind their peers on this policy. Even US will be offering free beer and wine soon on all intercontinental long haul flights.

Is that to conform to AA's policy or are they going to have a new policy once the merger goes through?



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17649 posts, RR: 46
Reply 56, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7173 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 48):
French wine on UAX, who would've thought.

UAX generally has better service than UA mainline in my experience

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 46):
If the take rate for better food really "approached zero," I'd imagine DineFresh and A la Carte meals would have been abolished.

The catering company is already pushing out meals for F/J--a couple incremental meals for Y is no big deal, even if it's a handful or zero.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 45):
I put my money where my mouth is and pay up to 30% more to get decent service (last case for holiday: SIN-AMS-SIN KL SGD$1100, SQ SGD$1450, I flew SQ and it was not me alone but 3 persons).

You are one of a very small group of people



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 57, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6981 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 56):
The catering company is already pushing out meals for F/J--a couple incremental meals for Y is no big deal, even if it's a handful or zero.

Oddly, I believe the program that did just that--NH used to let Y passengers buy J meals--has been abolished.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineCALTECH From Poland, joined May 2007, 2280 posts, RR: 26
Reply 58, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6935 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 44):
There is a cost that pmCO and now the combined UA has to pay to DirectTV for the use of the equipment onboard the aircraft, just like you have to pay for the use (rental) of the equipment and the satellite dish that is attached to your house and then there is the television programing that must be paid for as well just like you do on the ground DirectTV passes the cost along to the customer in this case its not a homeowner its United.

Do not believe United pays for anything other than the fuel lugging that equipment around. LiveTV does the maintanance and upkeep at the hubs, and United pays LiveTV from the fees gathered. Last memory, Continental kept 1 dollar out of the fee collected, the rest went to LiveTV. Haven't heard if that agreement has changed. LiveTV was happy with the fees collected by Continental, should be the same now with United.



UNITED We Stand
User currently onlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 59, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6911 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 54):

Oh really? I heard differently. I heard that they didn't not serve free beer and wine in the back, except on the JNB flight.

It's a fact -- free beer and wine TATL on Delta.

And in Economy Comfort -- free spirits. Why doesn't UA at least give free booze to it's elites in E+ in coach?



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8471 posts, RR: 10
Reply 60, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6737 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
Yeah but people say things like this ALL the time and then never put their money where their mouth is. If they did then you'd have incredible IFE, meals, and wifi on every flight, instead of take-rates that approach zero.

Really? Have you tried flying airlines that have better service and amenities? They are usually not the cheapest and they tend to be highly profitable. Of course there are many other factors at play but the idea that people won't pay for better service is a myth.

Right here in this thread there is evidence of this myth. UA offers free beer and wine in Y, on TPAC flights because the competition, i.e. SQ, CX, etc, also offer that for free. But SQ and CX aren't cheaper than UA to fly with and they are a whole lot more profitable. And it's not just the free booze in Y. SQ and CX also provide better overall service and amenities than UA, in Y. So the idea that people won't pay more for better service is a myth created by greedy, short sighted, market share grabbing, irresponsible management who want to preserve their golden parachutes under pressure from share holders.


User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6724 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 54):
Oh really? I heard differently. I heard that they didn't not serve free beer and wine in the back, except on the JNB flight.

I guess it doesn't matter. Important thing is what they do now.

Pre-ATI, DL offered one free beer/wine with dinner in Y. Post-ATI, they loosened the policy to permit more than one free beer/wine in Y. EC gets free liquor as well.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17649 posts, RR: 46
Reply 62, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6646 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 60):
They are usually not the cheapest and they tend to be highly profitable.

Such as? LCC/ULCCs are beating the pants off most of them, if not all of them. Of network carriers in the Western Hemisphere, CM of all carriers is printing money, and they didn't even have PTVs until recently.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6619 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 33):
Interesting. NW had exactly the opposite policy: free drinks Trans-Atlantic (to match KL) and a charge to Japan.

NW instituted the charging for alcohol on TPAC flights starting Feb, 2006. Prior to that, it was free like TATL flights. I believe the DL/NW alcohol policies were unified sometime in 2009 (not sure of the exact date).


User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5623 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
Yeah but people say things like this ALL the time and then never put their money where their mouth is. If they did then you'd have incredible IFE, meals, and wifi on every flight, instead of take-rates that approach zero.
Quoting AngMoh (Reply 45):
I put my money where my mouth is and pay up to 30% more to get decent service (last case for holiday: SIN-AMS-SIN KL SGD$1100, SQ SGD$1450, I flew SQ and it was not me alone but 3 persons).
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 56):
You are one of a very small group of people

That group is larger than you would think, and I do the same. My usual MO when going to the States from Germany is to fly AC on the way there (to benefit from pre-clearance at YYZ) and then fly back on LH or LX, even though doing it that way is usually 10-30% more expensive than flying with UA both ways. I'm OK with them for domestic feeders, but there's no way I'm flying them again on longhaul unless they seriously up their game.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineAAexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 636 posts, RR: 4
Reply 65, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5537 times:

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 18):
(I hold Star Alliance Gold status, though not from US)

Aegean, right? Or is it Turkish?


User currently offlinespud757 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5450 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 49):

Forget the US carriers on TATL. Just fly with a European carrier. Free beer, bottled wine and branded spirits in Y on BA & VS. I choose a UK carrier based on service alone.


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1842 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5296 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting spud757 (Reply 66):

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 49):

Forget the US carriers on TATL. Just fly with a European carrier. Free beer, bottled wine and branded spirits in Y on BA & VS. I choose a UK carrier based on service alone.

It's unfortunate but true. For the record, I have brought up the issue to UA. The folks I've been actually able to speak to live on the phone or in person were very nice and said all the things you'd expect them to say. I've never ripped into them or be rude no matter what the issue because its unprofessional and you never get anywhere screaming about stuff. They say they'll "take it to the next level" or agree that (in some classes and circumstances), UA doesn't quite measure up to the competition between SFO and LHR, FRA etc. Nothing ever came of the conversations.

The facts above tell me its not a priority for UA. They are trying to come up to minimal international standards with the IPTE upgrades for the 777s and the two class 767s. The 744s are hopeless if you are in Y or Y+ as I will be next month coming back from LHR with the family but they want those a/c gone and don't want to invest the cash in bringing them up to the BA or VS standard.

Their soft product has lagged fr a while and will continue to pale in comparison to CX, Singapore and NH across the Pacific and BA, VS and LH across the Atlantic. The booze issue is merely a symptom of the overall issue.

I'll burn through 240k miles on our trip next month and burn the last couple hundred thousand with Star Partners for international trips. I know the rank and file employees know what needs to be done to return to the class ways for which UA was known but management doesn't want to invest in a class product given they perceive folks will take whatever they are given.


User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5291 times:

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 65):
Aegean, right? Or is it Turkish?

Lufthansa, actually, if you must know.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 69, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5240 times:

Quoting ewr767 (Reply 29):
It's called what the market dictates. Get over it

The market indeed dictates. And it has dictated that asa result of its dysfunctional customer policies, UA has low customer satisfaction scores and is making losses while DL, which serves alcohol free TATL, has higher scores and is making money.

Quoting ewr767 (Reply 29):
Why is it our industry is the only industry not allowed to adapt and change with the times. Since when have you gotten a free drink on amtrack.

I guess if you consider your TATL competition to be Amtrak and not BA or DL, then the policy makes sense.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 34):
Until UA starts feeling the heat either from frequent flyers or from the flying public, they will continue with these dysfunctional service

They have felt the heat. Which is why they are losing money hand over fist.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8308 posts, RR: 23
Reply 70, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5192 times:

Quoting dtwlax (Reply 3):
Why the discrimination? Why do transatlantic passengers have to pay for drinks?
Does not make sense.

Because UAL stinks?



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1842 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4877 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting sankaps (Reply 69):
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 34):
Until UA starts feeling the heat either from frequent flyers or from the flying public, they will continue with these dysfunctional service

They have felt the heat. Which is why they are losing money hand over fist.

If they felt the heat, they would've made changes to their product to reflect the reality of the airlines competing against them on international routes.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8308 posts, RR: 23
Reply 72, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4769 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 71):
If they felt the heat, they would've made changes to their product to reflect the reality of the airlines competing against them on international routes.

Or not, for the afformentioned reason.

DAL moved their call centers back from India because, frankly, they're awful. DAL is now doing quite well for themselves.

United, who is bleeding cash, have not taken the hint and matched their competitor. You really believe UAL is smart enough to adapt when something as simple as having someone who actually speaks your language answering the phones falls by the wayside to save a few bucks?



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 73, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4436 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 71):
If they felt the heat, they would've made changes to their product to reflect the reality of the airlines competing against them on international routes.

That is if they are a competently managed organization that cares for its customers. Or else they will continue their decline and losses will continue to mount because they are too arrogant and do not want to listen to what the market is clearly telling them... Pan Am all over again.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17649 posts, RR: 46
Reply 74, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4165 times:

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 64):
That group is larger than you would think, and I do the same

I don't think so--if people were paying a premium for service and taking one stops to avoid a bad product on the nonstop, you'd see something like a fare premium on one stops, or anything remotely close, and you just don't see that anywhere.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 72):
United, who is bleeding cash

No one is bleeding cash in the US industry right now. Other than VX.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1716 posts, RR: 3
Reply 75, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4060 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 72):
United, who is bleeding cash

"During the first quarter, the company generated $393 million of operating cash flow"....hmmmm so bleeding cash = generating cash?

http://ir.unitedcontinentalholdings....-newsArticle&ID=1811059&highlight=


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 76, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3980 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 75):

"During the first quarter, the company generated $393 million of operating cash flow"....hmmmm so bleeding cash = generating cash?

It would be interesting to see how this compares to the OCF generated by DL? How much more OCF might UA have generated if it listened to its customers some more? Bottom-line is UA still ended up with a large loss in Q1, despite positive OCF.


User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1716 posts, RR: 3
Reply 77, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3921 times:

I'm not denying underperformance, just correcting the poster who stated UA was bleeding cash.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 76):
It would be interesting to see how this compares to the OCF generated by DL?

From DL:
"Cash flows from operating activities continue to provide our primary source of liquidity. We generated positive cash flows from operations of $1.0 billion and $831 million in the three months ended March 31, 2013 and 2012, respectively."

Page 22: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....RUNUSU9OX0VOVElSRSZzdWJzaWQ9NTc%3d

[Edited 2013-05-02 09:19:04]

User currently offlineCoachClass From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3820 times:

I'm curious about the costs involved in the airlines' drink policies. Of course it costs the airlines to stock spirits, wine and beer. Apparently US airlines say that they can absorb the costs for beer and wine [the actual purchase cost as well as weight on board], but how much more does it cost to serve a miniature of scotch? With spirits there is usually a mix involved, e.g. rum and coke; vodka and bloody Mary mix, or even scotch and water. With beer and white wine, there is the consideration of keeping them cold.

User currently onlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 79, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3781 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 70):

Because UAL stinks?

It's not that they stink per say, it's that they are currently being run by some of the cheapest executives in the industry.

One has to wonder how come UA can't compensate elites sitting in Y with better food and alcohol on long hauls like AA does.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 80, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3753 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 77):
From DL:
"Cash flows from operating activities continue to provide our primary source of liquidity. We generated positive cash flows from operations of $1.0 billion and $831 million in the three months ended March 31, 2013 and 2012, respectively."

Thank you. so DL has 2.5 times more OCF than UA. I think that proves the point conclusively.


User currently offlinehohd From United States of America, joined May 2008, 433 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3700 times:

While UA needs to revise its TATL policies on beer/wine to Y pax, every airline in the USA has atleast a drawback.

DL's Sky miles are notoriously difficult to redeem at the stated levels, UA and Star Alliance are much better. Plus DL does not allow one way redemptions.

AA's redemption is decent, but oneworld coordination (except AA/BA) is pathetic and many of their routes to Europe incur fuel surcharges, which neither DL or UA charge.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2207 posts, RR: 15
Reply 82, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3611 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 74):
No one is bleeding cash in the US industry right now. Other than VX.

Are you in complete denial? United lost over $400M last quarter when EVERY single US carrier earned a profit, including the one in BK.

Even if $400M isn't considered "hemorrhage" by your own standards/viewpoints, the spot where United falls on the scale relative to its domestic competition its pretty dismal.

Also, your continued habit of mentioning and bashing VX (literally a tactic you SOLELY apply when making apologetic remarks on behalf of United) is getting really old.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17649 posts, RR: 46
Reply 83, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3591 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 82):
Are you in complete denial? United lost over $400M last quarter when EVERY single US carrier earned a profit, including the one in BK.
Quoting RDH3E (Reply 75):

"During the first quarter, the company generated $393 million of operating cash flow"....hmmmm so bleeding cash = generating cash?

http://ir.unitedcontinentalholdings....ight=
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 82):
literally a tactic you SOLELY apply when making apologetic remarks on behalf of United) is getting really old.

Ugh! The outrage! The horror!   VX is the only one burning cash as far as I know in the US, are they not?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1716 posts, RR: 3
Reply 84, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3558 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 82):
Are you in complete denial? United lost over $400M last quarter when EVERY single US carrier earned a profit, including the one in BK.

Just in case you wanted to fact check:

From AA's release:
"GAAP Net Loss of $341 Million, a $1.3 Billion Improvement over First Quarter 2012."
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CIUBEBYwCQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fc.hub.aa.com%2Fdocuments%2FNEW_04_18_13_q1_results.pdf&ei=zriCUdOUCIqBrAHQ74GABw&usg=AFQjCNFiWF4tfIbsZzu-iNmGvgh3jIuBfw&sig2=FBnWhj6voId8A9ij4oLXpA&bvm=bv.45960087,d.aWM


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2207 posts, RR: 15
Reply 85, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3418 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 84):
From AA's release:

On the back of $349 million in reorganization and special items expenses. Without these, American recorded an $8 million profit.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 83):
Ugh! The outrage! The horror!   VX is the only one burning cash as far as I know in the US, are they not?

VX doesn't publish their quarterly financial data because they are private, so I have no clue where you're getting that idea from other than regurgitating unsubstantiated information because it makes you happy for some reason.

Without speaking too soon, bear in mind that VX achieved a $15.8 million operating profit for Q3 2012, the last time they posted financial results. This is a pretty far cry from the situation UA is in.



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User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1716 posts, RR: 3
Reply 86, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 85):
On the back of $349 million in reorganization and special items expenses. Without these, American recorded an $8 million profit.

Point is you weren't being truthful.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 85):
VX doesn't publish their quarterly financial data because they are private
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 85):
Without speaking too soon, bear in mind that VX achieved a $15.8 million operating profit for Q3 2012, the last time they posted financial results. This is a pretty far cry from the situation UA is in.

If you don't make money in Q3 you're doomed. From your cited release, VX had 75M of unrestricted cash at that time. Per their Q2 release they had 83M of unrestricted cash, meaning they burned about $8M during the quarter, or put another way, their cash reserves were reduced by nearly 10% in one quarter alone. It's not some far cry scenario, this happened last year. And 75 million isn't exactly a ton of cash to sit on during the winter months either. You ever wonder why they stopped releasing earnings? They probably don't want the flying public to be worried about whether they are going to go under when they book their tickets in advance.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 87, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3263 times:

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 64):
My usual MO when going to the States from Germany is to fly AC on the way there (to benefit from pre-clearance at YYZ) and then fly back on LH or LX,

But, while pre-clearance in Canada is convenient, the total elapsed time for any one-stop connection in Canada must be significantly longer than a nonstop to your U.S. destination, even when you consider the time to clear customs/immigration on arrival in the U.S. I can't see the longer travel time combined with higher fares being worthwhile compared to nonstops in both directions.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17649 posts, RR: 46
Reply 88, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 3220 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 85):
VX doesn't publish their quarterly financial data because they are private, so I have no clue where you're getting that idea from other than regurgitating unsubstantiated information because it makes you happy for some reason.

Uh, yes they do and...

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 85):
Without speaking too soon, bear in mind that VX achieved a $15.8 million operating profit for Q3 2012, the last time they posted financial results. This is a pretty far cry from the situation UA is in.

...for the most recent available VX data, they've had something like a net -12% margin, versus UA's -4% during the same period



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 492 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3150 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 88):
...for the most recent available VX data, they've had something like a net -12% margin, versus UA's -4% during the same period

You are like my daughter when talking about school results: "I am ok because there is always someone else who is worse than me"

UA stinks. That's it. Its the only airline I have flown which was worse than Indian Airlines in 1999, and that year Indian Airlines was voted as the worlds worst airline. At least Indian Airlines gave me lots of free whisky so I would not notice how run down the plane was    . That is why they were still better than UA...


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 90, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2882 times:

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 89):
At least Indian Airlines gave me lots of free whisky so I would not notice how run down the plane was

You must mean Air India. Indian Airlines, which was mainly domestic, did not typically serve alcohol on their flights.


User currently onlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 91, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2871 times:

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 89):
You are like my daughter when talking about school results: "I am ok because there is always someone else who is worse than me"

Sounds about right!



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently onlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 492 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2827 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 90):
You must mean Air India. Indian Airlines, which was mainly domestic, did not typically serve alcohol on their flights.

Indian Airlines flew SIN-BLR. They had the mini bottles. I asked for one, they gave me one and asked if I wanted more. I said "no" but they gave me 3 more anyway...


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5712 posts, RR: 5
Reply 93, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2804 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 69):
it has dictated that asa result of its dysfunctional customer policies, UA has low customer satisfaction scores and is making losses while DL, which serves alcohol free TATL, has higher scores and is making money.

I'm sorry, are you actually comparing profit/loss on the basis of providing alcohol? Or even on the basis of customer service metrics? Or indeed that there is a link between alcohol and high customer satisfaction?

The last one can be debated, although I believe that you overstate the point, but the first two are somewhat laughable.

If there is a clear trend over several reporting periods I might agree with you that if an airline provides poor services and therefore passengers don't fly them then that would impact profitability. But on the basis of one quarter? Really?


For a bit of perspective, let us keep in mind that:

1) UA beat market expectations in Q1
2) UA was profitable in FY12
3) UA is on track to make a profit in FY13

As such, comments like...

Quoting sankaps (Reply 69):
they are losing money hand over fist

... are both inaccurate and misleading

Quoting sankaps (Reply 73):
too arrogant and do not want to listen

=



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 94, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2767 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 93):

RyanairGuru: What I am saying is that companies that do not listen to their customers, fall behind their competitors, and refuse to adapt to the market are doomed to fail. Serving or not serving of alcohol is obviously not the sole reason an airline would fail, it is only an example. I think most people would have gotten that.

UA may beat market estimates, but they are still heavily loss making on a net basis and the worst performing major even on a operating cash flow margin basis, other than perhaps AA which is still I the process of re-structuring. If that is good enough for you, then who am I to argue?


User currently onlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 95, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2526 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 93):
http://ir.unitedcontinentalholdings....-newsArticle&ID=1777521&highlight=

Wrong. Full year 2012 they lost 723 mill with special charges included.

What smoke and mirrors this forum can sometimes have.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1842 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2501 times:
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Quoting tommy767 (Reply 95):
Wrong. Full year 2012 they lost 723 mill with special charges included.

What smoke and mirrors this forum can sometimes have.

In the interest of perspective, financial statements break apart the operating profit/loss versus "special charges" for a reason. Investors want to see how the airline's operations are doing from a profit/loss standpoint. Everyone knows that the merger will incur significant one-time costs such as the ones listed under "special charges." What is key is whether the airline's CASM, PRSM etc are doing well and they are properly positioned to succeed in the long term.

Is it an overall loss? Yes it is. Did the airline make a operational profit for the year? Yes they did.

I'm as inpatient as the rest of you to see this merger mess finally completed so we can see whether the claim of operational efficiency gains was "smoke and mirrors" or not. Regardless of our perceptions of UA's soft product, they should still be in a position to be solidly profitable and in a much better position going forward as their new a/c are delivered and the old/cranky/inefficient ones are retired.


User currently onlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 97, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2482 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 96):
Regardless of our perceptions of UA's soft product, they should still be in a position to be solidly profitable and in a much better position going forward as their new a/c are delivered and the old/cranky/inefficient ones are retired.

That clearly has nothing to do with it at all. They are ditching the 757s for no reason other than the management is anal about having a younger fleet. And it doesn't make sense either because they are selling off younger 757s and keeping older ones.

Also If that were the case ask DL who is constantly making record profits and flying around second hand M90s, 20 year old M88 and 320, and almost 30 year old 757 on domestic routes.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1716 posts, RR: 3
Reply 98, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2474 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 97):
That clearly has nothing to do with it at all. They are ditching the 757s for no reason other than the management is anal about having a younger fleet. And it doesn't make sense either because they are selling off younger 757s and keeping older ones.

Tommy, you need to stop. All you are doing is stirring the pot by providing factually inaccurate statements, and taking other decisions out of context.

The 739's have over 10% CASM advantage on the 752's, the "younger" 752's are being sold because they are more valuable, but still just as inefficient, and they are largely not ETOPS.


User currently onlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 99, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2448 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 98):
Tommy, you need to stop. All you are doing is stirring the pot by providing factually inaccurate statements, and taking other decisions out of context.

What are you talking about? I got that press release from United's website

10% CASM advantage? Is that even worth it?

Also I think my DL point stands. They fly older planes and make money.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1842 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2420 times:
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Quoting tommy767 (Reply 99):
What are you talking about? I got that press release from United's website

10% CASM advantage? Is that even worth it?

Also I think my DL point stands. They fly older planes and make money.

The acquisition of a/c by UA is different than DL. Some of the 757s are on leases which are expiring. Financially, they made a decision to release the a/c when you compare the maintenance expense and fuel expense versus a new 739ER.

UA also sold a bunch of 757s to FedEx. These were company owned a/c that they decided would cost more to maintain and were not as efficient on domestic flying as the 739ER (for which they got good deals).

DL on the other hand, bought many of its a/c at a great deal second hand. It's completely different than the UA purchase/lease custom.

A 10% CASM advantage per plane will add up to millions of dollars of fuel savings over what would have been the projected life of the domestic 757 they are retiring.

DL's team took a completely different tack on a/c acquisition and for them, it works great. They decided that the higher fuel costs were outweighed by the low acquisition costs and the fact they are doing the initial work-up of the incoming a/c in-house. The fuel refinery they now own helps cushion fuel cost spikes and over the long term, softens the lower fuel efficiency of their fleet.

What is interesting is that the explosion of domestic oil production in the U.S. could lead to softening Jet A costs. That will change some of the assumptions airlines are using now. We need more refinery production of course but good luck getting one of those built.


User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2357 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 74):
I don't think so--if people were paying a premium for service and taking one stops to avoid a bad product on the nonstop, you'd see something like a fare premium on one stops, or anything remotely close, and you just don't see that anywhere.

Nonstops are only half the question. For a lot of routings, there isn't a nonstop available. But that was not the point.

What I often see is a fare premium on certain airlines. For example, last week I was looking up flights to Las Vegas, which doesn't have nonstops from Germany on Star Alliance (there is DE but only a few times per week). I saw the same pattern that I usually see for *A JV flights across the Atlantic. The cheapest connections were on UA metal across the pond, and to get on LH, LX or AC metal, I had to skip forward to the higher-priced options.

The reason for this was that lower/cheaper booking classes - which had already sold out on the other airlines - were still available on UA metal. I can't think of any way to prove it to you empirically, but it is a pattern that I have been seeing for years. From that, I draw the conclusion that - at a minimum - people are definitely choosing the better-service carriers first when the price is the same. I also think that it is a reasonable assumption that there are people out there who are prepared to pay more for better service, because otherwise we would see prices equalise more quickly. But the price discrepancies between UA's better-service JV partners and UA metal flights is too stable for me to believe that all people are only choosing by price.

One other thing - I am sure that much of what you say applies to the once-a-year flier who just wants the cheapest price. Once you start flying more often than that though, you're more likely to look at ways to make your trip a better experience.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 87):
But, while pre-clearance in Canada is convenient, the total elapsed time for any one-stop connection in Canada must be significantly longer than a nonstop to your U.S. destination, even when you consider the time to clear customs/immigration on arrival in the U.S. I can't see the longer travel time combined with higher fares being worthwhile compared to nonstops in both directions.

Depends. I once spent 90 minutes in an immigration queue at ORD, and my record wait at JFK is just shy of 2 hours before I reached a desk. On those occasions, I would have been faster going via Toronto! In any case, if I'm travelling to a destination where no nonstop is available anyway, I might as well go via Canada and get immigration out of the way there, rather than at some mega-hub in the US.

However, the more important point was that the catering and service on AC is a lot better than the service on UA, and booze is free on AC longhaul flights, which is why I choose to pay more to fly with them. Pre-clearance is just icing on the cake.



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User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5712 posts, RR: 5
Reply 102, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2148 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 94):
What I am saying is that companies that do not listen to their customers, fall behind their competitors, and refuse to adapt to the market are doomed to fail

Sorry Sankaps, I guess I came other a bit rough. I actually wasn't addressing you personally, but rather several up-posts in aggregate but only quoted you.

This I fully agree with. You are absolutely right that in the customer service industry that people will vote with their wallets if you don't provide them with what you want.

I guess my point is that I'm not sure that UA (at this stage) is as out of whack with what customers expect as you suggest. Alcohol is an interesting one, I personally think that it should be free although I'm not sure that it would actually drive consumer behavior alone. Other factors play into customer service metrics, especially delays, mishandled bags etc. UA is particularly vulnerable to this in the winter because of its hubs in EWR, ORD, DEN, SFO are all weather prone. I still think that UA has an excellent hub network, but they are probably the ones worst affected overall by weather and IRROPS.

However, if in 2016 (6 years after merger) UA's customer service metrics haven't picked up then I'm with you 100%.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 94):
If that is good enough for you

I honestly know little about finance, but if the people who are paid to sit up on Wall Street and figure these things out are happy then I guess that's good enough for me.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 98):
Tommy, you need to stop. All you are doing is stirring the pot by providing factually inaccurate statements, and taking other decisions out of context.

The 739's have over 10% CASM advantage on the 752's, the "younger" 752's are being sold because they are more valuable, but still just as inefficient, and they are largely not ETOPS.

Thankyou

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 97):
DL who is constantly making record profits and flying around second hand M90s, 20 year old M88 and 320, and almost 30 year old 757 on domestic routes.

I respect Delta's model, it has a lot of merit. But look around the world and tell me how many other premium carriers are doing the same? The fact is that DL have carved themselves a very unique niche here, kudos to them for doing so, but it is probably risky to emulate it.

For a start, Douglas aircraft are the backbone of their "buy used" model. MD88, MD90, 717, and the venerable DC9. The fact is that Douglas built aircraft like tanks, they're practically indestructible. That's why the DC9s, even after 40 years, are still flying well and still have decent dispatch reliability. An A320 in comparison practically falls apart at 22 years. That's not to say that the A320 isn't a fantastic aircraft, but it does have a fairly short shelf life. The 737 has better longevity, but you will notice that the 732 and even the 733 had shorter lives than the DC9 with US legacies.

Delta's model, as I understand it, is finding lightly used Douglas aircraft that have a lot of life left in them. Now, go and have a look for aircraft that meet that description and let United know when you've found them.



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