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MH Flies The Airbus A380 To Hong Kong  
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12094 posts, RR: 34
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12079 times:

As of today, Malaysia Airlines flies the Airbus A380 to Hong Kong. This is the original press release:

Quote:
Malaysia Airlines will fly the Kuala Lumpur-Hong Kong route daily with the Airbus A380 effective May 1.

After London and Paris, Hong Kong will be the third destination for the national carrier's new 494-seater superjumbo fleet of aircraft.

The A380 will replace one of the double daily flights for the route currently serviced by the B737-800.

In conjunction with the launch, the airline is offering an attractive economy class fare starting now until May 20, for travel between May 1 and Nov 30.

The price starts from RM380 one-way and RM760 return all-inclusive.

In addition to that, eight first class seats will be available with premium features such as converted full flat bed, which is the widest among other airlines, and individual 23-inch in-flight entertainment screen.

Business class seats will feature individual 17-inch in-flight entertainment screens with power supply and USB ports.

Now can someone explain to me how MH expects to make profit on this route with an A380? KUL-HKG is only a 1,365 nm trip and the aircraft replaces a B737! The cabin is also configured for long-haul routes, who needs first class on such a short route? And we know that CZ is losing money on their domestic A380 routes.




Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17659 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12045 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Now can someone explain to me how MH expects to make profit on this route with an A380?

MH is just another carrier that can't figure out how to fly its 380s. Sad, but not surprising.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25741 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 11976 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
MH is just another carrier that can't figure out how to fly its 380s. Sad, but not surprising.

  

But atleast KUL-HKG is further than TG's even shorter BKK-HKG hop.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 492 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 11659 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
MH is just another carrier that can't figure out how to fly its 380s. Sad, but not surprising.

Because they can figure it out. Nothing sad, nothing surprising. Happens all the time in Asia.

For KUL-LHR-KUL and KUL-CDG-KUL, the plane departs KUL at around midnight and returns to KUL around 7 AM. So you choose: leave it parked till the next midnight departure, or have a relatively short return to another city in Asia. So now they probably figured out it is more profitable to fly the A380 (which would otherwise be parked) to HKG and use the 738 somewhere where it is more needed.

SQ does exactly the same with one of their SIN-HKG runs. And the 738 is a bit small for this route.


User currently onlinedavidho1985 From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2012, 374 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 11329 times:
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Quoting AngMoh (Reply 3):
For KUL-LHR-KUL and KUL-CDG-KUL, the plane departs KUL at around midnight and returns to KUL around 7 AM. So you choose: leave it parked till the next midnight departure, or have a relatively short return to another city in Asia. So now they probably figured out it is more profitable to fly the A380 (which would otherwise be parked) to HKG and use the 738 somewhere where it is more needed.

Agree.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 3):
SQ does exactly the same with one of their SIN-HKG runs. And the 738 is a bit small for this route.

SQ's A380 HK route also serve as a marketing technique for one stop A380-A380 flight to Europe and Australia


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7212 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 11247 times:

Amazing how people here know better than KE, SQ, EK, TG and now MH who all fly the A380 on short regional hops into HKG.


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4507 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11135 times:

Unlike what the press release is stating, the A380 on this route is not replacing a B738. MH072/073 used to be operated with A333 (and before that with B772) and is now upgauged to A380. Although MH has published F fares for the HKG route in certain markets, the flight is sold as 2-class only.

The second daily flight MH078/079 operates with B738 (and before that with A333) and will continue doing so.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 3):
So now they probably figured out it is more profitable to fly the A380 (which would otherwise be parked) to HKG

Judging by the amount of discounting going on, I'd say there is massive over capacity for this flight now. Here in Jakarta, MH had been announcing a USD 562 all in promotional business class fare for CGK KUL HKG KUL CGK, to be booked on the A380 operated HKG sectors only. That fare has since been extended indefinitely.

As a comparison, the cheapest CGK SIN HKG SIN CGK SQ fare with A380 sectors to be booked in the discounted D bucket will set you back well over USD 3000.

MH is, by the way, running equally stunning promotions for the CDG and daylight LHR A380 flights. These promotions lead me to believe that the only route where the A380 is currently making sense for the airline is the late night KUL LHR departure. One really has to wonder whether MH would not have been better off to build its longhaul fleet around the B77W + A333 instead of the current tiny A380 fleet, which seems not only too large for all but one of its missions, but also does not offer a lot of operational flexibility with just 6 aircraft in the fleet.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25638 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11110 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
But atleast KUL-HKG is further than TG's even shorter BKK-HKG hop.

EK also has a daily A380 BKK-HKG.

747s were once very common on routes like those. and the A380 really isn't that much bigger when you consider the growth in traffic over the years. Why do people think there's a problem using the A380 on 3 or 4 hour flights now when widebodies were very common on such routes (and often much shorter routes) as far back as the 1970s?


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10947 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Now can someone explain to me how MH expects to make profit on this route with an A380? KUL-HKG is only a 1,365 nm trip and the aircraft replaces a B737! The cabin is also configured for long-haul routes, who needs first class on such a short route? And we know that CZ is losing money on their domestic A380 routes.

As others have said, it is better than letting the plane sit idle.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
747s were once very common on routes like those. and the A380 really isn't that much bigger when you consider the growth in traffic over the years. Why do people think there's a problem using the A380 on 3 or 4 hour flights now when widebodies were very common on such routes (and often much shorter routes) as far back as the 1970s?

Quite. These routes are very busy and have a large premium market.

If you can't use widebodies on short routes, how do you explain all those domestic 747s that flew around Japan for decades?



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinehuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1116 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10934 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 5):
Amazing how people here know better than KE, SQ, EK, TG and now MH who all fly the A380 on short regional hops into HKG.

  

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
KUL-HKG is only a 1,365 nm trip and the aircraft replaces a B737! The cabin is also configured for long-haul routes, who needs first class on such a short route?

Firstly, I think people need to a better sense of scale. KUL-HKG (1,369 nm) seems short when looking at the Asian map, but it is slighly longer than LHR-IST (1,360 nm), two big markets across Europe.

Secondly, distance is hardly a reliable indication of market size. SIN-HKG is "only" 1,380 nm. Go check out the amount of seats flying between the two cities daily.

Thirdly, MH has all along planned to upgrade this route, although there were a few flip-flopping of plans, involving the A333s as well as B772s at one point. The initial plan was for 1 A333, 1 B772 and 1 B738 daily from 15 June. Then it become two A333s. Then now with the A380, MH will instead fly one A380 and one 738 now, before moving up to one A380 and double 738 daily from 15 June. Taken in totality, it is not as massive a jump in capacity as depicted, because technically, the A380 is replacing an A333, and not a B738, and the B772 has been downgraded to another B738.

[Edited 2013-05-01 22:13:29]


It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25741 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10888 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
747s were once very common on routes like those. and the A380 really isn't that much bigger when you consider the growth in traffic over the years. Why do people think there's a problem using the A380 on 3 or 4 hour flights now when widebodies were very common on such routes (and often much shorter routes) as far back as the 1970s?

But thankfully with continued air service liberalization across Asia, the region is going the way of Europe and North America where frequency is becoming the competitive key and carriers are shifting to smaller gauge aircraft.

It was terrible imo back in the days when airlines only had a couple flights between major centers, when today we can often find the carrier manage to operate dozen.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 8):
If you can't use widebodies on short routes, how do you explain all those domestic 747s that flew around Japan for decades?

Lack of slots, and a tightly regulated market place.

Look at Japan today, with half a dozen smaller carriers outside of JAL and ANA groups. Lots of airports and very much higher slot capacity. Even JAL and ANA groups have shifted to ever smaller planes, even RJ's!



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4507 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 10818 times:

I believe the main question in this discussion to be whether MH is deploying the A380 to HKG because it really needs that capacity there, or because it has nothing better to do with the airframe and feels the need to deploy it somewhere. I believe that the latter is true. MH would actually do just fine with an A333 on this particular rotation reinforced with two further B738 roundtrips on the HKG route, but it needs to do something with the A380 frame which would otherwise sit at KUL for 18 hours.

Equally so, MH would do just fine with a B772 (or a hypothetical B77W, had MH ordered some) on the CDG route, but the route ended up with the A380 because the aircraft needed to go somewhere. Let's be honest, a route that has been served with a daily 2-class B772ER for quite a while, now all of a sudden sees an upgauge to a daily 3-class A388. Isn't that rather peculiar to say the least? As a comparison, SQ replaced twice daily B77W with single daily A388 on SIN CDG and TG replaced 10 weekly B77W with single daily A388 on BKK CDG.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 10696 times:

Malaysia Airlines
100th A380, 9M-MNF, VHHH, 01/05/2013,
"1st MH A380 Depart HKG" , Bye!
http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/248050_10200948523973754_1606892247_n.jpg

Source:http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...112&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offline9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 10691 times:

As others have said this is utilisation of an airframe which otherwise would sit idle in KUL & perhaps they can grab some traffic from CX who have upscaled their operations into KUL.

But unfortunately the case remains that the A380 isn't that suitable for MH. With the bilateral agreements between Malaysia & Australia capping capacity & the entry of D7 into Australia the kangaroo route can't be upgraded to A380 without cutting on frequency. So out of the original plan only the double daily LHR operation is left & now MH is left to figure out where else to use the aircraft. But at least we can say we alongside Thailand and Singapore also have the A380.



I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12094 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 10543 times:

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 9):
Secondly, distance is hardly a reliable indication of market size. SIN-HKG is "only" 1,380 nm. Go check out the amount of seats flying between the two cities daily.

But can you fly a big aircraft like the A380 profitable on such short routes? They carry a lot of death weight for the short trip, ANA's 747 aircraft were even modified for domestic use (like the lack of winglets).



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinecelestar From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 10494 times:

Curious to know, how many gates at HKIA can handle A380? With so many scheduled A380 going to HK, I thought there was only a gate or two that had been modified to handle the A380 and I definitely could be wrong on this.

User currently onlinedavidho1985 From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2012, 374 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10298 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
EK also has a daily A380 BKK-HKG.

The flight will continue to Dubai. Actually, most people will get on/ off at Bangkok (both directions),
so basically it is a DXB-BKK & BKK-HKG routes using a single plane.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 14):
But can you fly a big aircraft like the A380 profitable on such short routes? They carry a lot of death weight for the short trip, ANA's 747 aircraft were even modified for domestic use (like the lack of winglets).

Yes, they may burn more fuel than other aircrafts, however, you are utilizing the long down-time of the A380, therefore, you no need to invest a fleet of regional jets/ free up some regional jets to somewhere else. Airlines in Asia are known for such "mis-use" of long haul fleet. The saving will outweight the increase in the fuel cost.

Quoting celestar (Reply 15):
Curious to know, how many gates at HKIA can handle A380? With so many scheduled A380 going to HK, I thought there was only a gate or two that had been modified to handle the A380 and I definitely could be wrong on this.

Currently 3 gates (with third airbridge) can handle A380.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12094 posts, RR: 34
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10286 times:

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 16):
Yes, they may burn more fuel than other aircrafts, however, you are utilizing the long down-time of the A380, therefore, you no need to invest a fleet of regional jets/ free up some regional jets to somewhere else. Airlines in Asia are known for such "mis-use" of long haul fleet. The saving will outweight the increase in the fuel cost.

That makes sense, thanks.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10211 times:

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 16):
Quoting celestar (Reply 15):
Curious to know, how many gates at HKIA can handle A380? With so many scheduled A380 going to HK, I thought there was only a gate or two that had been modified to handle the A380 and I definitely could be wrong on this.

Currently 3 gates (with third airbridge) can handle A380.

3 gates is pretty disappointing considering SYD have 6 x A380 capable bays. Wasn't HKG design designed to handle the A3XX=A380?

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineairpearl From Malaysia, joined May 2001, 952 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10211 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 14):
But can you fly a big aircraft like the A380 profitable on such short routes? They carry a lot of death weight for the short trip,

Another way of framing the question is: Which results in a lower loss - flying your A380 on a 1,365 nm route where there is some chance of a positive financial return or parking a plane for more than 16 hours every day at home base between two long haul flights? I have no idea actually, but I presume this is an issue management has grappled with already.

The ship has long sailed on the question of whether MH should be operating the A380 in the first place. (It shouldn't, in my opinion, but then, who am I to say?) Assuming that the disposal of the A380s is out of the question, I suspect that KUL-HKG is one of the few MH regional routes with a good enough mix of business and leisure traffic that can realistically support it (or at least one that results in a lower loss). MH and CX code share on the sector for a start, so that helps; also, traffic appears to be dense enough to justify CX flying in its own widebody metal 4 times a day (a mix of A333s, B773s, B77Ws).

It's also worth noting that looking purely at the morning KUL-HKG flights (generally more popular than the flights later in the day), the MH A380 still offers far fewer seats (at 494 seats) than the two morning CX flights that leave KUL within about an hour of each other (one B773, and one A333, with a total 709 seats).

.


User currently onlinedavidho1985 From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2012, 374 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10182 times:
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Quoting EK413 (Reply 18):
3 gates is pretty disappointing considering SYD have 6 x A380 capable bays. Wasn't HKG design designed to handle the A3XX=A380?

More gates will be modified. In additional, some gates of the mid-feild terminal (currently in construction) will be A380 capable as well. With the addition of MH's A380 flights, all 3 gates will be utilized at the same time in the afternoon (SQ, TG & MH) and late night (QF & EK*2).


User currently offlineChris7217 From Hong Kong, joined Nov 2002, 169 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9726 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

Photos of the arrival/departure and the entire event in HKG can be found here:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.249572745183563.1073741826.151415914999247&type=1


User currently offlinejohnclipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 851 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9434 times:

Booked on in on 10 MAY KUL-HKG...USD500 for one-way biz class...not a bargain

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14072 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8268 times:

Many airlines operate even a new long range aircraft at first domestically, e.g. LH used the 747-400 for a while between Frankfurt and Hamburg. This is mainly to give the staff a chance to develop procedures, get practical training and to shake down the new aircraft for faults before it enters a more prestigious route.
Also some countries might insist that new aircraft types for an airline will be checked out on shorter routes first. E.g. we had for a while an Ethihad B777 freighter replacing an A330 on a the route between DXB and HHN, even though it was much too big for the intended cargo. The reason was that the Chinese authorities, where the plane was ultimately to go, insisted that it should develop a record of reliability outside China first with this airline befor commencing to fly to China.

Jan


User currently onlinedavidho1985 From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2012, 374 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7839 times:
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Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):
Many airlines operate even a new long range aircraft at first domestically, e.g. LH used the 747-400 for a while between Frankfurt and Hamburg. This is mainly to give the staff a chance to develop procedures, get practical training and to shake down the new aircraft for faults before it enters a more prestigious route.
Also some countries might insist that new aircraft types for an airline will be checked out on shorter routes first. E.g. we had for a while an Ethihad B777 freighter replacing an A330 on a the route between DXB and HHN, even though it was much too big for the intended cargo. The reason was that the Chinese authorities, where the plane was ultimately to go, insisted that it should develop a record of reliability outside China first with this airline befor commencing to fly to China.

Obviously, the MH A380 HK flight is nither for traning or compliance of regulation purpose.


25 mercure1 : I think the A380 will becoming the vanity aircraft similar to how the 747 purchased by many in the 1970s. I well recall how every major European airli
26 KarelXWB : Fair enough. I never realized that 1 frame would stick on the tarmac for 16 hours until it can be rotated in the European network. In that case it ma
27 cloudyapple : Currently capable are E15, N60, N62, N66. At least 3 more contact stands are sized for A380 in the existing PTB but yet to be converted. 2 more when
28 EK413 : Edit: was meant to say 'designed' Regardless, HKG is a major Asian hub therefore need to cater the needs of the carriers which serve it. EK413
29 Polot : Is HKG having trouble meeting those needs?
30 Starlionblue : There was a significant difference. When it was introduced, the 747 was the only aircraft that could serve many long routes. Nowadays the A380 is har
31 Viscount724 : On the other hand, airport capacity in Asia isn't keeping pace with the huge increase in traffic, making larger aircraft one way to cope with demand
32 EK413 : Perhaps you can confirm if the airport is or isn't meeting the needs? I'm just factoring in all the A380 flights presently serving HKG & there ce
33 Skyguy : Could EK's success in channeling traffic from KUL (and other SE Asian cities) through DXB to LHR and other European destinations have anything to do w
34 mercure1 : The clear trend is Asia is for smaller planes and much higher frequency. The arrival of LCCs has pushed thus along nicely with even major carriers ge
35 Post contains links Viscount724 : I agree but how long can it continue? I was making the point made in this article. http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/archi...airports-cant-keep-up-with-
36 Polot : I already knew that HKG has had no issues. I'm also not the one complaining about the number of A380 capable gates at HKG vs SYD.
37 planesmart : Sydney might have 6x gates capable of handling A380-sized aircraft, and Melbourne ??. But can they actually handle the passengers? Can they provide an
38 BestWestern : Part of Asia may be going this way, but China is most certainly not. The opposite is happening. Distances in Asia are huge, hubs work, and regional r
39 EK413 : Did I really give you the impression I was "complaining" about A380 gates????? I was simply comparing a International Hub airport 'HKG' vs a non Hub
40 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Even if the Australia bilateral weren't capped, there is so much competition on the Kangaroo route I don't think any of it is worth having any more.
41 744FOREVER : IIRC, SQ also operated 10 weekly 77W to CDG.
42 huaiwei : There are more flights and choices today because the Asian markets have exploded in demand. This is by no means any indication that the Asian air mar
43 Post contains images 744FOREVER : My point being that, it was 10 weekly SQ 77W SIN-CDG and not twice daily ... that's it ! ... Relaxxxx ... Indeed, I have flown a "couple" of times th
44 MaverickM11 : NH and JL have gotten rid of all their long haul 744s. SQ has not replaced their 744s with 380s 1:1 but rather closer to 2:1. Most, if not all, other
45 LAXintl : Very simple look at the fleet profiles of Asia's airline industry today to lets say 20-years ago. There is massive orders for small narrowbody aircra
46 Viscount724 : Isn't the heavy recent use of the A330 on domestic routes in China really an upgauge in capacity?
47 mercure1 : Even AAPA (Association of Asia Pacific Airlines) say traffic trends in regional reflect shift to smaller aircraft with more frequency as result of lib
48 CX Flyboy : There has not been a situation yet where an arriving A380 has had to wait for a gate because the others were occupied so yes HKIA meets the needs. At
49 mjoelnir : You just defeated your own argument 9,870 new passenger and cargo aircraft 3,080 new twin-aisle aircraft 6,030 new single-aisle aircraft 360 very lar
50 LAXintl : I don't think so. He made his point very well. 2/3 of aircraft sold in Asia-Pacific region will be smaller single aisle narrowbodies. The growth rate
51 mjoelnir : It seems that we use different mathematics. If you say that 1 of 6 airplanes is a wide body in the USA, is about the same as 1 of 3 a wide body in As
52 mercure1 : I guess some people fail to recognize the shift in landscape in Asia. Today, the market is no longer composed of a few national airlines with heavy re
53 planesmart : Japan is a conservative, more mature market, so is it really comparable? Japan may not be 747 heaven, but still widebody heaven. Problem many legacy c
54 MaverickM11 : It might be, but China is very much regulated, so it's similar to the US market pre-deregulation where DC-10s and L10s were flying things that are no
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