DIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1733 posts, RR: 5 Posted (7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5270 times:
TK will not allow its flight attendants to wear bright coloured( red or pink) lipstick. This is causing a storm in Turkey where Islamization is on the rise, and a Conservative Government is bending backwards to please the Islamists.
toobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 694 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5188 times:
What would it matter if they were against this? That's the price of living in an extreme religious country (area). Common sense is thrown out to the sea and women's rights take a leap in as well. It's kinda funny how men in that part of the world are so "intimidated" by women that they need to control them and how they look. Sad.
scbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 11789 posts, RR: 48 Reply 2, posted (7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5013 times:
So they CAN still wear lipstick, just not bright red or pink? Doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me - I'm sure TK (and other airlines) would not allow an FA to have bright green hair either. The airline has the right to have its crew project the image it wants, not the image the crew wants.
I don't see it's a big deal and certainly not pandering to Islamisation.
leftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 688 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4882 times:
I also do not agree with TK management's decision, as red (not perhaps a fiery red but plain red) lipstick should be OK. However, for the sake of accuracy, the title of the thread should be changed. Lipsticks still allowed (in fact enforced) at TK - FAs are supposed to wear lipstick, blush and eye shadow. Eyeliner also allowed. Here's a source quoting TK make-up policy (sorry in Turkish only): http://www.airporthaber.com/havacili...e-tek-yasak-kirmizi-ruj-degil.html
Quokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4849 times:
Quoting toobz (Reply 4): Uhh..what color are lipsticks normally? Blue?
Only if worn by cabin crew on Finnair, maybe.
But yes, you can buy blue lipstick, and black, purple, silver, gold and green. The linked article states that natural looking lipsticks are acceptable.
As to red, there are dozens of shades of red and it would appear that Turkish does not regard the bright, shocking reds and pinks as appropriate.
But Turkish is not alone in deciding what is and what isn't appropriate wear in a service industry. For example, Finnair states on its web site aimed at would be job applicants that they do not permit visible tattoos, dental jewellery or piercing. As none of the above prevent crew from performing the actual job, why are they regarded as acceptable demands while a limitation on lip stick colours isn't?
Personally I think that unless what a person wears is a safety risk it shouldn't make a difference but it is accepted that airlines in the West apply dress codes, so why do we insist that Turkish Airlines doing the same is wrong?
toobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 694 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4788 times:
Lol would live to see AY crew wearing blue ha. I find this very bizarre. Who is to say what is too bright? Sounds like a lot of personal interpreting to me. I get the super bright colors. You don't want your cabin crew walking around like Times Square whores. I get that. But I still think bright red is rather vague.
scbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 11789 posts, RR: 48 Reply 8, posted (7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4707 times:
Quoting toobz (Reply 7): Who is to say what is too bright? Sounds like a lot of personal interpreting to me.
In this case, TK themselves.
Many employers reserve the right to apply some control over how their employees dress. At work I'm expected to dress in "business casual". If I turned up in flip-flops, shorts and a t-shirt, I'd be sent home. I've had to speak to female employees who's dress, especially in summer, is more suited to the beach than an office. We're not Google or Apple and neither is TK.
In my view, TK has every right to control the image its FAs project. If they don't want their FAs wearing bright red lippy I really don't see it as a big issue and certainly not a religious one.
If you want to be an FA and wear bright red lippy, go work for VS.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11885 posts, RR: 100 Reply 9, posted (7 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4517 times:
Is this uniform standardization or for religious reasons? IMHO, this is more the former. As Quokkas noted, this is service industry enforcing a look.
FWIW, I prefer my women without lipstick, but I'm not setting the dress code.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 2): So they CAN still wear lipstick, just not bright red or pink? Doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me
Quoting scbriml (Reply 2): I'm sure TK (and other airlines) would not allow an FA to have bright green hair either.
Eh, is that prohibited at Spirit?
Quoting scbriml (Reply 8): At work I'm expected to dress in "business casual".
My new employer's business casual is far more casual than my last workplace... each site sets their own rules. For example, collared shirts were required for business casual at my last employer (no tee shirts). Here, every Friday everyone is wearing Tee shirts... (Almost everyone... I'll wear a Hawaiian shirt, I'm just not ready to go down to a Tee shirt...) So all I see is this setting a color code.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 8): If you want to be an FA and wear bright red lippy, go work for VS.
toobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 694 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (7 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 4337 times:
Scbri..I get that. But it's not the same thing as having biz casual environment and comin to work in flip flops. It's the same as saying u need to wear biz casual but NOT bright red or pink shirts. But only for males. Kinda ridic eh? Would that happen in your office? But I get this isn't taking place in the US but in a country where I guess it's feasible and accepted that not everybody is equal.
B777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1142 posts, RR: 3 Reply 11, posted (7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4279 times:
Dude, lighten up. This restriction is nothing compared to what other airlines, hailing from completely secular societies, have foisted onto their front line employees when it comes to personal appearance, in same cases all the way down to the exact brand, model and colour of lipstick and nail polish. Ever heard of the VPL check? Well, it's still done to this day.
It's all about conveying the appearance management of the company is intent on broadcasting, and in this case it would seem the TK grooming wallah's have decided they don't wish for their biscuit chucking ladies to come across as cheap tarts. Plenty of other airlines that'll happily endorse strutting stuff like the best them, Virgin to name but one, but TK will not. They are, just like most other airlines, a tad conservative.
Claiming this was done because of political influence brought upon by religiously conservatives, is an allegation that requires more than just your opinion in order to have a leg to stand on. My guess is it's plain and simple application of common sense, and maybe certain elements within TK cabin staff needed to have the rules spelled out and rammed down their throats.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11885 posts, RR: 100 Reply 12, posted (7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4244 times:
Quoting toobz (Reply 10): It's the same as saying u need to wear biz casual but NOT bright red or pink shirts. But only for males. Kinda ridic eh? Would that happen in your office?
I'd have a lot of red Hawaiian shirts left in my closet...
But that is business attire. My entire industry used to be one color of shirt per pay grade!
Technicians: Dark Blue shirts
Engineers: White shirt (no stripes allowed) with black tie (on Fridays you could wear a collage tie)
Managers: White shirt (w/ or without stripe)or light blue shirts with any 'classy tie'
Then Verner Von Brown was brought to the USA and imposed casual Friday.
But there are Male/Female differences:
Monday through Thursday we must wear 'business shoes' which for men mean black or brown and men must wear a collared shirt or a sweater. Woman can wear about anything (dress, collared shirt) other than tennis shoes and tee shirts. So we already have that differentiation in 'advanced economies.'
The issue is ambiguous dress codes. I do not see an issue with TK's choice of lipstick colors.
mercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 885 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4152 times:
This story has nothing to do with religion or politics.
I guess they should look and complain at Air Tahiti Nui as well.
TN has clear restrictions on make up tones, how the hair must be worn(short or up), restrictions on nail polish etc.
I think in America at the happiest place on earth - Disneyland also have incredibly strict uniform standards. I recall reading in paper a few years ago that staff have to be groomed and appear exactly or face suspension.
TK can create standards it desires. This is very basic concept in service industry.
scbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 11789 posts, RR: 48 Reply 15, posted (7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 4004 times:
Quoting toobz (Reply 10): It's the same as saying u need to wear biz casual but NOT bright red or pink shirts.
But my office is not customer-facing and we don't wear uniforms. FAs at TK (and just about every other airline) are and do. The airline is simply setting the standard for what is and isn't acceptable for their FAs to wear while on duty. It's not unreasonable and I can't see it's got anything to do with politics or religion.
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 5704 posts, RR: 9 Reply 16, posted (7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 3989 times:
The source articles are only in French and Turkish, but the subject is a real polemic in Turkey, not something the OP is making up.
The fact that such policies are common and thus the polemic a little futile is only highlighting the "fight" going on in the country between a strong secular part of the population and another strong part who wants more religion in everything. Everything gets interpreted.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26025 posts, RR: 58 Reply 17, posted (7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 3969 times:
This issue has more to do with internal Turkish politics. Turkeys main opposition party CHP made a huge fuss about anything considered pro Islamic. TK seems to be held up by politics in certain areas which is a shame. Its an airline not a game. The airline to should be allowed to be free from these kinds of issues.
AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
quiet1 From Thailand, joined Apr 2010, 326 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3526 times:
I wonder if this is a reaction to a crew member who wore a shockingly bright shade of red that even non-Islamics would agree is inappropriate for cabin crew? All too often a knee-jerk reaction to the 5% who ruin it for the 95% is an exaggerated micro-managing policy change.
indcwby From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 122 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (7 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2774 times:
Sadly, I wonder if an airlines bending backwards to those who are hardcore Islamists, wanting their way or no way, will be a slow death to an airline? Wasn't it on a SV or PK flight, that a man who was a strict Muslim forced a plane to divert because he was screaming at the cabin crew because they were all women?
smi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1455 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2345 times:
Qantas and Virgin Atlantic both limit the colours of lipstick their uniformed staff can wear... One requires natural colours, the other, requires bright red.
I see nothing wrong with tight uniform and presentation guidelines, that how branding is created. So long as there are no discriminatory policies (regarding age weight, religious garments etc), and the guidelines are equally tough for Men as they are for woman then I feel it contributes to a higher level of professionalism.
Does anyone have access to the entire TK grooming and presentation guidelines?
JQflightie From Australia, joined Mar 2009, 911 posts, RR: 1 Reply 26, posted (7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2189 times:
we at QF have a 70-odd paged guide on how our uniform has to look, right down to make up worn for the girls and jewelry worn... i think its a common place in an airline to have a Uniform and Grooming standard.
Next Trip: PER-DPS-LOP-CGK-KUL-PVG-LHR, LCY-MAD-VLC, BCN-LYS-TLS-IST-JED-KUL-SGN-CAN-MEL
Tupolev160 From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 412 posts, RR: 1 Reply 27, posted (7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1954 times:
I fully support the move and no, you would be surprised that most of Turkish women actually never use provocative lipstick. I know the "seculars" are irritated thought, cause the country is getting more and more "islamized" and they see it just as a one step further. Mind yourself that the fact Turkish Airlines employees have no right to strike is far more worrisome than this lipstick issue.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
Turkish350XWB From Switzerland, joined Jan 2009, 453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 31, posted (7 months 11 hours ago) and read 1600 times:
Quoting TK787 (Reply 30): Hmmm, this is different.
In today's news , TK's CEO T.Kotil says that there is no limitations on lipstick color at TK, this must have been done by some junior management level, he says as of now any lipstick color can be worn at TK.
Does this make the situation better that such important things can happen in such a big company? This changes the ciriticism from islamistic to incapable.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 23165 posts, RR: 23 Reply 32, posted (7 months 10 hours ago) and read 1556 times:
Quoting smi0006 (Reply 24): I see nothing wrong with tight uniform and presentation guidelines, that how branding is created. So long as there are no discriminatory policies (regarding age weight, religious garments etc), and the guidelines are equally tough for Men as they are for woman then I feel it contributes to a higher level of professionalism.
Reminds me of Canadian carrier Wardair that had a dispute with their male flight attendants sometime in the 1970s or 80s over whether they could wear earrings. They were permitted for female cabin crew but not male. If memory correct some of the male crew took the issue to the federal government's Human Rights Commission, arguing that it was discriminatory to permit women to wear earrings but not men.. I forget the outcome but I think the airline won that one.
Wardair's founder and majority shareholder, Max Ward (now age 91), was very conservative on such issues.
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 5704 posts, RR: 9 Reply 34, posted (7 months 7 hours ago) and read 1446 times:
Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 31): Does this make the situation better that such important things can happen in such a big company? This changes the ciriticism from islamistic to incapable.
I'd say it's neither, but rather that CEO went the PC way.
In practice someone at a lower level made a minor change to the grooming standard to make things clearer, no big deal as we see it's pretty common to have strict rules, but somehow it made it to the social networks and it made more sense image wise to apologize than try to explain things.
I expect that he's even lying because I'm sure he wouldn't support green or gold lipstick.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams