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El Al Shut Out From Alliances  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25358 posts, RR: 49
Posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 13625 times:

The recent El Al strike helped highlight the carriers difficulty competing in a market place dominated by airline alliances that help drive customer loyalty and revenues.

Carrier says “EL AL has been trying to become a member, but for obvious political reasons, has not been accepted. The fact that we are not able to join an alliance severely restricts our global operations and destinations served.”

Seems the alliances in deference not to offend its current or future Arab members have steered clear of El Al, while also as an analyst points out Israel being a destination market is very well served by alliance flights already.
With the fact that as a destination market, El Al also has never built a network focused on connectivity further reduces the attractiveness of the carrier for alliances which in their race continue to look to build and maximize global connection points.

Story:
http://skift.com/2013/05/01/the-reas...al-airlines-alliance-anytime-soon/

=


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 13408 times:

Interesting article. I noted the author tied in many possible political reasons why EL AL couldn't join, plus the conflicts between them and other Arab members.

However, I do wonder how much of this is actually down to the lack of connections and value that the airline could bring to an alliance. The TLV market is already massively served- look at how many New York- Tel Aviv services there are in place. People don't necessarily need to transit through Europe to reach Israel, so the synergy of a codeshare is less beneficial than the US-Lebanon market (for example) which relies on cooperation and alliances with different airlines through different airports to get the people into the country.

Who knows what the future will hold for the airline but I would say that they will be around for a long time yet!



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2184 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 12681 times:

I guess that they gave up on or forgot about their attempt to create their own alliance.

User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 12531 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Seems the alliances in deference not to offend its current or future Arab members have steered clear of El Al, while also as an analyst points out Israel being a destination market is very well served by alliance flights already.
With the fact that as a destination market, El Al also has never built a network focused on connectivity further reduces the attractiveness of the carrier for alliances which in their race continue to look to build and maximize global connection points.

These are valid points, but it's not as though El Al has just chosen not to develop connections due to a lack of vision - El Al has very little ability to build a network that focuses on connectivity given the political issues at hand. They have a huge disadvantage for flights to/from the east due to the necessary detours, and that is the primary direction they would want to provide connectivity to Europeans (similar to the other ME carriers). They also can't provide connectivity within their geographic region since most of those countries are entirely off limits. The only place they can really fly openly is Europe, and the location is obviously terrible to serve Europe-to-Europe flows.

In the scope of alliances, airlines are generally supposed to serve as the source of connectivity within their regions. Focusing on the connectivity that they would be able to provide, which would primarily be via longer flights, would still provide little value to alliances. Given the necessary detours, many places in Asia start to become marginally closer to Tel Aviv compared to Europe, and it makes sense for European carriers to serve the routes on their own. So while political deference to Arab members may play some role, I suspect the larger problem is that political issues make it impossible for El Al to build a network that brings value to an alliance.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15742 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 12485 times:

It's unfortunate that political sensitivities are hampering El Al's ability to do business, but the alliances aren't wrong. If the choice is take El Al or take one of the major Gulf carriers as a partner, you'd take the Arab airline seven days a week and twice on Saturday.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinereifel From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 1360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12303 times:

Indeed. The only connecting flights they offer are from Europe to Asia, and the detour is quite big. Plus you need to be lucky that a schedule fits, the prices are average to high compared to especially Gulf Carrier, and flying with El Al alone and all security stuff included will put most connecting travellers off. That said, there is a connecting flights security check point in TLV, however not even a transfer counter airside.... No, this is defninitely not an airline which builds their network to offer convenient connections. Sometimes when you're lucky flight timings would fit, gulf (and other competitor) airlines too expensive, and then - maybe - you would choose El Al...

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 11987 times:

Flying only 6 days a week also doesn't help. Even without that obstacle I can't see LY being of much if any benefit to the major alliances.

[Edited 2013-05-02 14:58:45]

User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 11801 times:

Shame the cold shoulder LY receive.

But interesting to note that Israel market is one of the highest per-capita air travel markets in the world.
Due geography and high standard of living, the propensity for air travel is very high in population, plus add in the big tourism market.
This makes Israel a significant and attractive market that should not be ignored.


User currently offlineORDTLV2414 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10646 times:
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I dont truly believe that LY is being shut out for political reasons. It may have a small part to do with it but not a ton. Like people have been saying Israel is an amazing place to visit (I've been there 4 times) but not to change planes in. Europe to Asia via TLV is unpractical. Maybe one day if a peace agreement between Israel and all its neghibors were complete, LY could be a regional carrier TLV-CAI-AMM ..... but untill then no. Also LY's fleet is so old, they need to replace their 747's soon. maybe they should fase them out. idk.

User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1924 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10588 times:

What I don't understand is why LY is seemingly shut out because it brings no strategic value, yet an airline like SV is apparently Skyteam material...I don't really see a difference between what SV and LY brings strategically to an alliance.

User currently onlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9941 times:

LY would be better served by forming tighter alliances(FFP, codesharing, lounge, ground, terminals) with individual airlines. In particular, AA and IB partnerships should be fortified. AA gives them US coverage while IB offers routes to latin America.

A close relationship with QF via HKG would also be beneficial for Israeli pax traveling to and within Australia.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9691 times:

This is an unfortunate thread, because in this context you simply cannot separate aviation and politics.

Quite simply, if and when there is a comprehensive peace agreement - which can only mean the 2002 Arab League Proposal for a universal settlement in return for total adherence to pre-1967 borders - then Israel will be recognised by all of its neighbours and Israeli and Arab nationals will enjoy unhindered movement.

At that point Ben Gurion becomes they key airport in the Middle East, and everyone will want El Al in their alliance, because Israel has the best economy in the region and Ben Gurion serves all the Biblical sites on both sides of the Green Line which tourists would want to visit.

But the current status quo excludes Israel from such a position. They have total military dominance and therefore are essentially secure, but all of their neighbours in their region are either formally at war with them or else have a peace agreement which is almost unanimously rejected by their own citizens. But anywhere on earth, the price of enjoying peace through military superiority rather than diplomacy tends to be ostracism and exclusion. El Al's isolation is a classic case in point.

As I wrote, you can't answer this question accurately without reference to politics, because politics is the cause of El Al's isolation.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5576 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9156 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 11):
This is an unfortunate thread, because in this context you simply cannot separate aviation and politics.

  

It's Not Just an Airline, It's Israel


I agree entirely with your points, as you say El Al will have a very bright future in-and-when there is a universally recognised settlement, but until then it is unfortunate that El Al will continue to struggle to gain traction outside of its core market.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7729 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 1):
However, I do wonder how much of this is actually down to the lack of connections and value that the airline could bring to an alliance

That could very well be the case.

Not sure its entirely fair, but I am sure the alliances are taking a number of factors into consideration.


User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8114 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7199 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 11):
This is an unfortunate thread, because in this context you simply cannot separate aviation and politics.

True, but remarkably civil so far - good work everybody!

This is excellent -

Quoting koruman (Reply 11):
Quite simply, if and when there is a comprehensive peace agreement - which can only mean the 2002 Arab League Proposal for a universal settlement in return for total adherence to pre-1967 borders - then Israel will be recognised by all of its neighbours and Israeli and Arab nationals will enjoy unhindered movement.

At that point Ben Gurion becomes they key airport in the Middle East, and everyone will want El Al in their alliance, because Israel has the best economy in the region and Ben Gurion serves all the Biblical sites on both sides of the Green Line which tourists would want to visit.

But the current status quo excludes Israel from such a position. They have total military dominance and therefore are essentially secure, but all of their neighbours in their region are either formally at war with them or else have a peace agreement which is almost unanimously rejected by their own citizens. But anywhere on earth, the price of enjoying peace through military superiority rather than diplomacy tends to be ostracism and exclusion. El Al's isolation is a classic case in point.

So true. Even if you set aside the moral reasons for granting statehood to Palestine, I don't know why Israel can't see the commercial logic behind a two-state solution - imagine the influx of visitors if the injustices of the last 65 years ended, with Jerusalem an international city with joint administration by both nations. It would be the world's number one tourist destination - gorgeous weather, incredible history, developed infrastructure, the focal point of three of the world's major religions, fantastic beaches, side trips to the pyramids, the three Bs of Lebanon (Beirut, Byblos*, Baalbek**), Petra***... Come on, let's get there already.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 7):
But interesting to note that Israel market is one of the highest per-capita air travel markets in the world.

Because most of Israel's population was born outside the country.

* the place the Bible is named after
** the greatest Roman ruins in the world
*** I know it is possible to do Jordan and Egypt from Israel but an all-white 737 to Cairo some days a week isn't what we're talking about, we're talking about three or four A330s a day, packed every day - one day...



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6902 times:
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Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 13):
an all-white 737 to Cairo some days a week isn't what we're talking about, we're talking about three or four A330s a day, packed every day - one day...

Its not a white 737 any more - its this bird



User currently offlineq120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6263 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 11):
Quite simply, if and when there is a comprehensive peace agreement - which can only mean the 2002 Arab League Proposal for a universal settlement in return for total adherence to pre-1967 borders - then Israel will be recognised by all of its neighbours and Israeli and Arab nationals will enjoy unhindered movement.


Sadly this will never happen. As Israel will never return to the pre-1967 borders because that would be suicide for the countries defense. History has also shown that regardless of what "occupied" land has been returned, the Arabs just used it as their new front-line to attack Israel. There is a reason why Eilat.Haifa and Tel Aviv are mainstream targets now.

EL AL has to fly smart in order to continue competing with other national airlines. This would mean, a step back from the Israeli mentality and being serious about the product, this is very important if you are trying to attract new customers.



However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6091 times:
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Quoting q120 (Reply 16):
History has also shown that regardless of what "occupied" land has been returned, the Arabs just used it as their new front-line to attack Israel. There is a reason why Eilat.Haifa and Tel Aviv are mainstream targets now.

Debatable and definitely for another place to discuss in detail.


User currently offlineLurveBus From Philippines, joined Mar 2007, 286 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5633 times:

Very interesting article.

I can also imagine that any alliance that welcomes El Al could also endanger their existing rights to fly over Arab or Iranian airspace. Most Asian members won't be able to access TLV, either.

At the end of the day, though, in the grander scheme of things, El Al's woes are a small price to pay for Israel's sense of security.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11345 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5633 times:

Quoting reifel (Reply 5):
No, this is defninitely not an airline which builds their network to offer convenient connections.

Definitely.

El Al is an airline whose mission is to bring people to and from Israel, Tel Aviv in particular. Compare that to any large airline (of which El Al with is 37 planes and 38 destinations can't really claim to be, can it?). Large airlines move people from place to place. KLM's mission is not to bring people to and from Amsterdam, Air France Paris, Air China even Beijing.

Other airlines in the region are simply much better positioned to help an alliance. Saudia has about four times the fleet and 3 times the destinations. Qatar has about four times the fleet and four times the destinations. And most importantly, Saudia and Qatar can take you to the more local cities in the area that European, Asian, and American airlines do not serve. Without being able to serve the region, El Al basically can only duplicate the service already provided by other distantly-based carriers.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineORDTLV2414 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5308 times:
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Yes all that being said I would say alot of LY money woe's have to do with the fact that the product is crap. If i had the choice (which I usually dont) every time I fly between ORD-JFK-TLV I would fly DL because the product is nice. For this winter I'm even considering flying ORD-PHL-TLV because US has a fine product for this route. LY needs to upgrade both their Y and J product.

User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5283 times:
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Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 20):
I would say alot of LY money woe's have to do with the fact that the product is crap

Beyond doubt !


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5281 times:
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Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 20):
I fly between ORD-JFK-TL

Why not give Alia (Royal Jordanian) a go ?


User currently offlineScottishDavie From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2011, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4238 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 17):
Quoting q120 (Reply 16):
History has also shown that regardless of what "occupied" land has been returned, the Arabs just used it as their new front-line to attack Israel. There is a reason why Eilat.Haifa and Tel Aviv are mainstream targets now.

Debatable and definitely for another place to discuss in detail.

Hear hear and preferably after reading Sari Nusseibeh's wonderful book "Once Upon a Country".


User currently offlineSEA From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4127 times:

I really don't think it's a political issue at all. LY just don't have anything to offer an alliance. Their fleet is getting old and in poor condition, TLV isn't exactly a huge hub, their route network is pretty limited internationally. They don't really have a major presence in any Star or Skyteam or OneWorld hub. I really just don't see them having much to offer anyone.

25 jfklganyc : 1. I think it definately has to do with the fact that they don't fly on Saturdays. That is unacceptable to most of the travelling public. 2. To fly EL
26 D L X : I had completely forgotten about that. Even when flying airlines other than LY, passengers have to arrive early for a special screening. I flew CO EW
27 MaverickM11 : I don't know if it's quite that simple--LY does offer access to a relatively large, wealthy, and frequently traveling local population that is not re
28 toxtethogrady : It's been so long since that 2002 proposal that I'm not even sure either of the two sides has any interest in it. I suspect that the accords Clinton
29 D L X : Let's see if we can look at it this way: what routes would LY open up to Star Alliance? As in, list a few routes that Star could enjoy by adding LY.
30 falkerker : Don't Orthodox Jews prefer LY? That is pretty much the only advantage any alliance would get, tempting Orthodox Jews...
31 SEA : I think you're forgetting a major city and hub and destination... DXB.
32 toxtethogrady : Dominated by Emirates, who are allied with no one save QANTAS. Emirates does not fly to Tel Aviv, and neither do the other MEB carriers, so that's th
33 Aesma : Maybe for a time but I would expect Palestine to build an airport not too far from Jerusalem. The successes have a lot to do with the good education
34 Viscount724 : SV offers far more potential connecting destinations beyond Saudi Arabia in Asia and Africa than LY, and without the time-consuming detours LY requir
35 LAXintl : There are two already - TLV 25miles and AMM 44miles away. Politics or not, be total waste to try to develop another airport square in the middle.
36 777way : But Jerusalem has its own airport Atarot to Israeils, Qalandia to Arabs. Future maybe, they currently serve only four cities in CIS, one each in Belar
37 MaverickM11 : It's a big hub, but the local, onshore population is not that big. The dynamics of TLV are a little different, with both a large onshore population b
38 Post contains images LAXintl : Israel is a pretty unique market - its essentially an isolated island where air transport is a very important link. Add in the high standard of livin
39 q120 : well said. A unique market indeed. EL AL should abandon the idea of joining an alliance for now and focus internally on their overall product. They a
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