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787 Production/delivery Thread Part 14  
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12144 posts, RR: 17
Posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 43294 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

With part 13 now having over 230 replys, its time to start the next thread

Link to previous thread 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 13 (by iowaman Jan 14 2013 in Civil Aviation)

250 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7559 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 43246 times:

From United787 who compiled the list from All Things 787

Quote:
DELIVERED TO DATE: 50 Aircraft to 8 Airlines

DELIVERIES PRIOR TO 2013
NH-17; JL-7; UA–6; AI-5; QR-5; ET-4; LA-3; LO-2

2013 DELIVERIES TO DATE
L/N 54 - VT-ANJ – 3/28/2013 - AI #6

NEXT IN LINE FOR DELIVERY Rough Estimate - We won't really know until they are actually delivered...
L/N 83 - JA818A - x/xx/2013 - NH #18
L/N 72 - VT-ANM – x/xx/2013 - AI #7
L/N 43 - B-2727 – x/xx/2013 - CZ #1
L/N 73 - B-2728 – x/xx/2013 - HU #1
L/N 89 – JA830J – x/xx/2013 – JL #8
L/N 90 - VT-ANN – x/xx/2013 - AI #8
L/N 92 - G-TUIA – x/xx/2013 – BY #1
L/N 76 - B-2722 – x/xx/2013 - HU #2
L/N 34 – B-2725 – x/xx/2013 - CZ #2
L/N 81 - B-2723 – x/xx/2013 - HU #3
L/N 86 – SP-LRC – x/xx/2013 – LO #3

I'm expecting NH deliveries to commence within the middle of the month. They really wanna get back into the swing of things asap.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 42998 times:

A picture of LN76 in paint at FTW:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJV57gOCMAETFhp.jpg:large

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...1/history/20130503/2300Z/KFTW/KCHS



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2706 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 42977 times:

As always, thank you to All Things 787 (NYC777) and others for the information that is summarized here. For more specific information on the aircraft in production, I recommend going to http://nyc787.blogspot.com/

DELIVERED TO DATE: 50 Aircraft to 8 Airlines

DELIVERIES PRIOR TO 2013
NH-17; JL-7; UA–6; AI-5; QR-5; ET-4; LA-3; LO-2

2013 DELIVERIES TO DATE
L/N 54 - VT-ANJ – 3/28/2013 - AI #6

NEXT IN LINE FOR DELIVERY Rough Estimate
L/N 83 - JA818A - x/xx/2013 - NH #18
L/N 72 - VT-ANM – x/xx/2013 - AI #7
L/N 43 - B-2727 – x/xx/2013 - CZ #1
L/N 73 - B-2728 – x/xx/2013 - HU #1
L/N 89 – JA830J – x/xx/2013 – JL #8
L/N 90 - VT-ANN – x/xx/2013 - AI #8
L/N 92 - G-TUIA – x/xx/2013 – BY #1
L/N 76 - B-2722 – x/xx/2013 - HU #2
L/N 34 – B-2725 – x/xx/2013 - CZ #2
L/N 81 - B-2723 – x/xx/2013 - HU #3
L/N 94 - G-TUIB – x/xx/2013 – BY #2
L/N 86 – SP-LRC – x/xx/2013 – LO #3
L/N 79 - B-2730 – x/xx/2013 - HU #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 87 - SP-LRD – x/xx/2013 – LO #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 88 - SP-LRE – x/xx/2013 – LO #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 93 - B-2733 – x/xx/2013 - CZ #3 Awaiting first flight
L/N 95 - B-2734 – x/xx/2013 – CZ #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 85 - B–2732 - x/xx/2013 - HU #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 96 - G-TUIC – x/xx/2013 – BY #3 Awaiting first flight
L/N 39 - ET-AOO – xx/xx/2013 - ET #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 97 - JA819A - x/xx/2013 - NH #19 Awaiting first flight
L/N 98 – JA831J – x/xx/2013 - JL #9 Awaiting first flight
L/N 99 - A7-BCD – x/xx/2013 - QR #6 Awaiting first flight
L/N 91 - VT-ANO – x/xx/2013 - AI #9 Awaiting first flight
L/N 100 - B-2735 – x/xx/2013 – CZ #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 101 - JA820A - x/xx/2013 - NH #20 Awaiting first flight
L/N 102 – LN-BKA - x/xx/2013 - DY #1 (ILFC) Awaiting first flight
L/N 103 - A7-BCE – x/xx/2013 - QR #7 Awaiting first flight
L/N 105 – JA832J – x/xx/2013 - JL #10 Awaiting first flight
L/N 32 - VT-ANG – x/xx/2013 - AI #10 Awaiting first flight
L/N 106 - G-TUID – x/xx/2013 – BY #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 107 - JA821A - x/xx/2013 - NH #21 Awaiting first flight
L/N 108 – G-ZBJA - x/xx/2013 - BA #1 Awaiting first flight
L/N 110 - JA822A - x/xx/2013 - NH #22 Awaiting first flight
L/N 111 – G-ZBJB - x/xx/2013 - BA #2 Awaiting first flight
L/N 112 – LN-BKB - x/xx/2013 - DY #2 (ILFC) Awaiting first flight
L/N 21 – JA823J – x/xx/2013 - JL #11 Awaiting first flight


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 42781 times:

I could be wrong but this looks like a C1 flight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...2/history/20130503/1800Z/KPAE/KPAE

This one is JA818A for ANA.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 42733 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 4):
I could be wrong but this looks like a C1 flight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...2/history/20130503/1800Z/KPAE/KPAE

This one is JA818A for ANA

This is way to short for a "normal" ANA C-1 unless they've changed their profile -- actually no customer profiles are that short. It's probably a cleanup B flight prior to C-1.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 42728 times:

Let's have a little more patience than  


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 42688 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
Let's have a little more patience than

Maybe tomorrow. But on ANA's homefront things are moving right along:

As of May 2nd -- 10 airplanes under going modification/ 4 awaiting modification -- 3 airplanes flying have completed 16 of the ### of flights before service starts again.


User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 42199 times:

LN 11, LN 12, and LN 14 are all destined for Transaero Airlines. They've been assigned var numbers ZA800, ZA801 and ZA803. Please see my tables.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 41003 times:

Seems like the rumors are true.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 40964 times:

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 8):
LN 11, LN 12, and LN 14 are all destined for Transaero Airlines. They've been assigned var numbers ZA800, ZA801 and ZA803. Please see my tables.

Do you think there will be a fourth frame as has been previously suggested?

tortugamon


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks ago) and read 40903 times:

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 8):
Please see my tables.

And LN26 is now inside the EMC, we wont see this one for the next 6-8 months I guess.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks ago) and read 40850 times:

As if it there aren't enough daylight hours in a day... B-2725 (China Southern #1) is currently doing a PAE-SEA-PDX-MWH-PAE test flight in the middle of the night Pacific time.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE380

Only thing i can think of is that its daylight here in China so perhaps part of the CAAC certification?!?

Anyone else have better ideas?

Cheers
A

[Edited 2013-05-04 02:55:23]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks ago) and read 40840 times:

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 12):
CAAC certification

I think you hit the nail here.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7559 posts, RR: 18
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 40540 times:

Expect NH deliveries to commence sometime next week or the week after. I don't know why that C1 flight didn't happen but 818A should be the next one to NH. My friend told me that they're starting to finish up the mods (see the other thread, Mr. hkcanadaexpat hit it right on the nail with his information too) and once they start finishing test flights they'll begin to accept deliveries again.

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 8):
LN 11, LN 12, and LN 14 are all destined for Transaero Airlines. They've been assigned var numbers ZA800, ZA801 and ZA803. Please see my tables.

Man are they getting these at a discount? Last I hear Transaero loves their discounted airplanes.

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 12):
Only thing i can think of is that its daylight here in China so perhaps part of the CAAC certification?!?

Are they like, Skyping the information right back to CAAC headquarters? Kinda odd, but hey looks like CAAC is finally getting things straight with the 788 



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 40525 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
Man are they getting these at a discount?

No, at list price  

Seriously, those terrible teens are not as bad as it sounds. They are already burning less fuel than the 767 so if you don't need the range, they will serve you well.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1823 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 40453 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 15):

Also, don't forget the benefit of CFRP, no corrosion in the skin like with metals, lower maintenance bills. If the LN20+ frames burn 21% less than the 767 the "terrible" teens might do a good 15% below the 767?

They get these frames for a very good price, probably so low they more than make up the overweight on them in fuel bills.


User currently offlinedavidho1985 From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2012, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 40400 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Anyone have news about CZ's 787???
I know that they are performing test-flight now and China Government has already approve the 787 operation in China (They refused to approve it which lead to the delay of delivery to CZ & HU prior to the global grounding).

Really looking forward to fly CZ's 787 (my 1st 787 flight) (and will try my best to be on their 1st flight if possible)


User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 40250 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 10):
Do you think there will be a fourth frame as has been previously suggested?

They are buying 4 787s so yes there will be a fourth frame. If it's one of the terrible teens, I don't know.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinemorrisond From Canada, joined Jan 2010, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 40124 times:

By the time they are delivered at least the Terrible teens will probably have Up to date engines with all the PIP's - so the fuel burn might not be that bad?

User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 40119 times:

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 12):
As if it there aren't enough daylight hours in a day... B-2725 (China Southern #1) is currently doing a PAE-SEA-PDX-MWH-PAE test flight in the middle of the night Pacific time.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE380

Only thing i can think of is that its daylight here in China so perhaps part of the CAAC certification?!?

Anyone else have better ideas?

Cheers
A
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 13):
I think you hit the nail here.

Most if not all regulatory flights deal with maneuvers that are done during daylight. I also don't remember ever having to do a flight based on the regulatory agency's time zone. If they're flying in the middle of the night it's probably because whatever test they're doing requires darkness. Interesting flight plan however, especially the low altitude work on the GEG-PAE leg.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 39590 times:

Quoting morrisond (Reply 19):
By the time they are delivered at least the Terrible teens will probably have Up to date engines with all the PIP's - so the fuel burn might not be that bad?

Correct, but they are still 4 to 6 tonnes overweight which is a lot of dead weight to carry.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinesomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3384 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 39511 times:

When is Transaero supposed to take delivery of these aircrafts?

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 39506 times:

I believe deliveries are slated for the second half of next year.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 39355 times:

The Gulf Times seems convinced that Qatar is getting the 789 next year while the latest Boeing order/delivery list still shows only 30 788 for Qatar (13 of which have already been sequenced). Either they're full of themselves, either we'll see a conversion or either we'll see a new order. something's got to give!
A

http://www.gulf-times.com/opinion/18...lines-as-dreamliner-flights-resume


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 39683 times:

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 24):
The Gulf Times seems convinced that Qatar is getting the 789 next year

Late last year Flight Global ran an article about AAB wanting the 787-10X where he stated he could change between any variant. The article actually says the following:

-The carrier has firm orders and options in place for a total of 60 787s, without a definite commitment for any variant
-He indicates that a substantial number of these could be -10Xs. "Qatar still has 59 aircraft to be delivered, he says. So we have the flexibility to change the type within the 787 family.


While I would think they could not select the -10X without additional consideration, they must have already made some selection for the -9 that Boeing has not made public. Not sure why though as others have made the change and that has been publicly announced. Interesting.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-proposed-787-10x-al-baker-378899/

tortugamon


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 39619 times:

Please let's not turn the production thread into a order/delivery thread.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2706 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 39411 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 26):

It is a production/delivery thread.


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 39038 times:

Speaking of production, looks like ANA ZA512 (83) could be off on a C-1 shortly. Watch for the telltale 360 turn over ONP.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE512


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 38594 times:

The third 787 for BA (LN114) is outside the factory:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/8718401919/in/photostream



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineCATDADDY63 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 38195 times:
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"On Tuesday, India’s Directorate General of Civil Aviation gave the go-ahead to the planes after a joint meeting of officials from Air India and Dreamliner-maker Boeing."

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/kt-artic...viation_May15.xml&section=aviation

On Monday ZA242 (VT-ANN) ferried from PAE to BFI. Delivery imminent now that India's DGCA has approved the fix?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE242


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 38013 times:

Quoting CATDADDY63 (Reply 30):

On Monday ZA242 (VT-ANN) ferried from PAE to BFI. Delivery imminent now that India's DGCA has approved the fix?

First it needs a customer flight unless they're waiving that requirement.


User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 38001 times:

Thomson Airways says they plan on taking their first 787 before May 31st. Should be in Manchester, UK by that date.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 37784 times:

The first tail plane section of ZB001 (the first 787-9) recently arrived in Everett.

http://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/332178034683682816

[Edited 2013-05-08 10:23:18]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 37637 times:

Some pics of the first 787-9 HTP:

http://www.boeingblogs.com/randy/archives/2013/05/smooth_1.html



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13090 posts, RR: 100
Reply 35, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 37396 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 21):
Quoting morrisond (Reply 19):
By the time they are delivered at least the Terrible teens will probably have Up to date engines with all the PIP's - so the fuel burn might not be that bad?

Correct, but they are still 4 to 6 tonnes overweight which is a lot of dead weight to carry.

Which frame was the first to receive a MTOW boost? (I used to know, IIRC #21 was the first increased MTOW but...  &nbsp  so those early frames not only have 4 to 6 tons of 'deadweight,' but that added weight comes right out of the fuel budget with no option to just 'add fuel' to get the job done. Those would be true 767 replacements.    Ok, a little more range and better fuel burn/payload at range, but not in the same league as more recent deliveries.

Do we have a summary of airframes at certain milestones by line number?

e.g.,
Line number #7, first with 7,400nm range
Line number#20 (or #21) (I speculate) first with higher MTOW. I'm going from memory...
Line number#66, first built that do not require rework/change incorporation (per all things 787). Excludes the battery...
Line number #90 (per aspire aviation) was to be first frame at target empty weight (slipping)
Line number#103 Meets target weight (per 2nd apire aviation link below).

I'd also love to know which line numbers were the first to reach certain still air ranges with nominal passenger payload... e.g., the original quoted ranges on the 'terrible teens' with the Package A Trents was low (~ 7,400nm, with Airbus claiming 6,800nm for the still unsold earliest examples). In particular, which line number was first to 8,000nm potential range?


http://nyc787.blogspot.com/2012/10/a...iation-787-8-still-overweight.html
http://www.aspireaviation.com/2013/0...ng-787-is-a-dream-come-true-again/

old thread where we talked about the 7,400nm range due to the overweight issue/fuel burn miss:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ral_aviation/print.main?id=4144360


Now I have a serious engine question. Is the GenX-1B PIP retrofit-table back to the initial engines/nacelles due to the effective increase in fan diameter? Did GE just push the fan forward to a larger diameter part of the casing, or is a new fan casing required?

Per the 2nd Aspire aviation link:
This is crucial to enabling the Boeing 787 to be continuously improved and further increase its market appeal as being a uniquely positioned point-to-point aircraft as the GEnx-1B missed close to 3% in specific fuel consumption (SFC) before the PIP 1 clawing back 1.7% and the PIP 2 another 1%, of which General Electric (GE) officials are adamant that these will enable the GEnx-1B engine to meet or be slightly better than the original SFC specification.

Similarly, Rolls-Royce is expected to introduce the Trent 1000-TEN (Thrust Efficiency New Technology) in the first half of 2016, which will incorporate improvements from the Trent XWB and slash the Trent 1000 Package B’s specific fuel consumption (SFC) by 3%, whereas the Package B is understood to still be 3% higher than the original engine SFC, Aspire Aviation‘s sources at Boeing say (“Boeing is in no rush to fast-track future widebody strategy“, 27th Nov, 12). The Package A engine was said to have missed original SFC target by 4.3%.


I look forward to seeing later 788s replace 777L. (Ok, I hold hope for a restart in the ULH market.)

Lightsaber

[Edited 2013-05-08 12:25:02]


Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently onlinedynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 873 posts, RR: 9
Reply 36, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 36873 times:

Boeing has rolled out the first 787 built at the 7/month rate. Sorry, no link as this was from the Boeing internal news site. This was LN 114, and was also the 100th Everett-built 787.

Says something about the inventory they have on hand when they've delivered only 50 and are rolling out LN 114...


User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 37, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 36547 times:

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 36):
Boeing has rolled out the first 787 built at the 7/month rate. Sorry, no link as this was from the Boeing internal news site. This was LN 114, and was also the 100th Everett-built 787.

Says something about the inventory they have on hand when they've delivered only 50 and are rolling out LN 114...

Do you know the date it rolled out?



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 38, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 36569 times:

May 7 ?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/8718402205/in/photostream

[Edited 2013-05-09 07:03:52]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 36488 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 38):
May 7 ?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/8...tream

Usually Boeig rolls out completed airframes one day before loading a new one in position 1. Boeing loaded LN 122 on May 7th and needed to have moved LN 114 out on May 6th.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 36376 times:

Air India just confirmed its latest planned 788 delivery schedule:
> Already Delivered: 6
> Rest of 2013: 7
> 2014: 5
> 2015: 6
> 2016: 3

The 7 for Rest of 2013 are:
> VT-ANM (flying @ Charleston)
> VT-ANN (flying @ Everett)
> VT-ANO (awaiting first flight @ Charleston)
> VT-ANG (awaiting first flight @ Everett)
> VT-ANB (getting refurbished @ EMC)
> VT-ANC (getting refurbished @ EMC)
> VT-ANE (getting refurbished @ EMC)

The last of the early frames needing re-furb (VT-ANA) will be delivered in 2014.

Cheers
A


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 41, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 36342 times:

Are you sure about VT-ANB and VT-ANC? Those two went just inside and early frames spend about 8 months in there.

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 39):
Usually Boeig rolls out completed airframes one day before loading a new one in position 1. Boeing loaded LN 122 on May 7th and needed to have moved LN 114 out on May 6th.

May 6th sounds plausible than.

Here is the Boeing press release:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2672

And a video:

http://www.boeing.com/boeing/Feature...05/bca_rate_increase_05_09_13.page

[Edited 2013-05-09 08:40:42]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 42, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 36205 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 41):
Are you sure about VT-ANB and VT-ANC? Those two went just inside and early frames spend about 8 months in there.

They won't have to be in there for 8 months as they won't need to have as much re-work as the earlier frames. Also Boeing has probably gotten more efficient at the 787 change incorp so it'll go faster.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 43, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 36188 times:

ZA184 for JAL has filed for it's B-2 flight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE184



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 44, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 36181 times:

There was a block change after LN19 if I remember it correctly. However, LN21 spent about 8 months inside the EMC and LN20 is still inside there since September 2012. Is there such a big difference between LN21 and LN25-26?

Do you know when LN32 went inside?



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 45, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 36143 times:

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 43):
ZA184 for JAL has filed for it's B-2 flight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE184

Actually this is probably a C-1 -- watch for the telltale 360 over ONP.


User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 46, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 36078 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 44):
Do you know when LN32 went inside?

Don't know the date but within the last 2-3 weeks.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 47, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 36133 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 41):
Here is the Boeing press release:

The press release contains an interesting picture of the assembly line in CHS (is there a high-res version available?):



Besides the U turn, we can see 3 birds with engines attached. In Everett, engines are only installed at position 4 of the assembly line. Secondly, one can see a lot of scaffolding underneath the wings of the 787 in front; scaffolding is not used anymore in Everett.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2zf7w2g.jpg

[Edited 2013-05-09 09:30:12]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 48, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 36028 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 47):
In Everett, engines are only installed at position 4 of the assembly line.

Engines are attached in position 2 not position 4.

[Edited 2013-05-09 09:51:37]


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineCaptain.MD-11 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 704 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 36014 times:

Any ideas as to when DY will take delivery of their first 787 and whether they will utilise it on the JFK or BKK run?

I'm booked ARN-BKK in the last couple of days of July and don't know which to expect, the Hifly 340 or 787.

Thanks



Twins,twins, everywhere.... but where are the three holers?
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 50, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 35999 times:

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 48):
Engines are attached in position 2 not position 4.

Yeah the above picture showed something else, most pictures you Google are from the pre-LN66 era. Here is a better picture:

http://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/484593_516381248418075_184474092_n.jpg

One can see the ILFC bird at position 2 with an engine on the ground, awaiting attachment. Next the BA bird at position 3 with engines attached.

[Edited 2013-05-09 10:12:10]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 51, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 35874 times:

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 46):
Don't know the date but within the last 2-3 weeks.

Alright, we'll have to wait and see than.

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 40):
The 7 for Rest of 2013 are:

Note that Air India's FY 2013 runs from 1 April 2013 to 31 March 2014.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 52, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 35880 times:

Another B-2 flight that should be going up soon:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE317



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13090 posts, RR: 100
Reply 53, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 35807 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 40):

Air India just confirmed its latest planned 788 delivery schedule:
> Already Delivered: 6
> Rest of 2013: 7
> 2014: 5
> 2015: 6
> 2016: 3

   Far better than I expected.


Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 51):
Note that Air India's FY 2013 runs from 1 April 2013 to 31 March 2014.

Ahh... Thank you.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6381 posts, RR: 3
Reply 54, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 35364 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 45):


Actually this is probably a C-1 -- watch for the telltale 360 over ONP.

That isn't what happened today. They flew to MWH, full stop on the ground, and then flew back to PAE. Seems strange...



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 55, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 35220 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 51):
Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 40):
The 7 for Rest of 2013 are:

Note that Air India's FY 2013 runs from 1 April 2013 to 31 March 2014.

Karel - these are calendar year figures not fiscal year figures. You've made your point that you don't believe them. I'm not vouching one way or the other. Just repeating the words coming out of the mouth of Air India's CEO. Time will tell.

A


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 56, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 35250 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 54):
Actually this is probably a C-1 -- watch for the telltale 360 over ONP.

That isn't what happened today. They flew to MWH, full stop on the ground, and then flew back to PAE. Seems strange...

Okay, no 360 at ONP -- I guess ANA is the only one left doing that. But, other than that, the profile looked like what you'd expect for a JAL C-1, so lets see what comes next. No flights prior to delivery or short flights prior to delivery and it was a C-1 today -- time will tell.

ANA flew a C-1 on Tuesday and hasn't flown since so hopefully it's done flying and will deliver soon.


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3547 posts, RR: 26
Reply 57, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 35185 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

It's been beautiful weather here in Puget Sound, I'd expect every fixed plane to be in the air.. but maybe they need some dampness.   

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 58, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 34924 times:

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 55):
Karel - these are calendar year figures not fiscal year figures. You've made your point that you don't believe them. I'm not vouching one way or the other. Just repeating the words coming out of the mouth of Air India's CEO. Time will tell.

I'm not saying you are incorrect and this has also nothing to do with the rework time, but many interviews with Air India spokesmen are about fiscal year figures. This has been discussed earlier, see here for example (reply #77).

[Edited 2013-05-10 01:04:07]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 59, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 34967 times:

Some more pictures.

1) BA second 787 in paint, parked at the EMC.





2) Extensive work on one of the RAM birds.



3) LN43 still wearing a temporary Boeing registration.



All pictures taken & uploaded by moonm.

I also get the impression that VT-ANA is now parked somewhere else.

[Edited 2013-05-10 01:20:14]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 60, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 34801 times:

More information coming in on Air India delivery schedule and route plans:

> 7th aircraft (ANN) to be delivered "end of May or in the first week of June" and will operate DEL-ICN route
> 8th aircraft (ANM) to be delivered "by July" and will operate DEL-HKG route
> 9th and 10th aircraft (ANO & ANG) to be delivered "by August" and will operate DEL-MEL and DEL-SYD routes
> 11th and 12th aircraft (ANE & ANC) to be delivered "by October" and will operate BOM-LHR, DEL-ALA and DEL-MXP routes
> 13th aircraft (ANB) to be delivered "by November" and will operate DEL-NRT-KIX and DEL-SVO routes

Cheers
A


User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 61, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 34846 times:

In yesterday's Asia Wall Street Journal:

China Southern Airlines hopes to take delivery of its first Boeing 787-8 in late May-2013, according to CFO Xu Jiebo. Mr Xu said: “We could take delivery of as many as eight Boeing 787s this year, with the remaining two on order joining the fleet next year.” The carrier is awaiting operational approval for the aircraft from China’s CAAC. According to the CAPA Fleet Database, the airline currently has 10 787-8s on order.

Cheers
A


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10731 posts, RR: 9
Reply 62, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 34875 times:

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 34):
Some pics of the first 787-9 HTP:

http://www.boeingblogs.com/randy/arc....html

The -9 will surely be the best-looking member of the 787-family. Really beautiful plane, and the best looking twinjet ever. The -8 is a bit stubby, the -10 will be too long to look good.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 63, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 34334 times:

LN100 is now rolled out to the CHS flightline.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJ6eygZCAAEaIpu.jpg:large

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJ6g33ACYAAShf8.jpg:large

Source http://twitter.com/Kearney_Brendan/status/332878012993372160

[Edited 2013-05-10 08:38:56]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 64, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 34131 times:

ZA513 B1 flight pops up (ANA JA819A):

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...3/history/20130510/2130Z/KPAE/KMWH



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 65, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 34013 times:

LOT ZA272 (86) scheduled for a C-1 (?) later today.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE272


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 66, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 33947 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 57):
It's been beautiful weather here in Puget Sound, I'd expect every fixed plane to be in the air.. but maybe they need some dampness.



Every fixed airplane has been flying. Since things started up again we've had the following flights (my best guess) completed or scheduled as of today from KPAE:

ZA380 GUN B-1/B-2/EWA

ZA184 JAL B-1/C-1

ZA272 LOT B-1/C-1

ZA317 TUI B-1/B-2 or C-1

ZA318 TUI B-1

ZA512 ANA C-1

ZA513 ANA B-1

Works out to 1 a day for the last two weeks. At this rate we'll be seeing at least 10 a month out the door starting in June.

Oh and ZA242 B-1/EWA

[Edited 2013-05-10 11:19:32]

User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 67, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 33748 times:

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 48):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 47):
In Everett, engines are only installed at position 4 of the assembly line.

Engines are attached in position 2 not position 4.

I believe engine installation now occurring at position 2 is a byproduct of the new 7/month rate change. Prior to the change, engines were installed at position 4 if I am not mistaken.

I posted this in the 777X authority to offer thread but there is also impact here:
The Temporary Surge Line or TSL is prospectively slated for retirement in 2016 to make way for 777X as to not disrupt current 777 production. This plan mirrors a temporary third line in Renton for 737 Max.
https://www.facebook.com/jonostrower/posts/10101961425903614

Do you think that this means that Charleston will be getting an additional production line to make up for the drop off post 2016? Will that be the -10x production line? Or do people think that Boeing will try to get away with using just the two lines. I suspect we will see an additional line put in Charleston that will be used for the 10x and overflow similar to what the surge line does now for the -9.

tortugamon


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 68, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 33725 times:

2 lines should be enough to support a production rate of 10 frames per month. 7 per month in Everett and 3 per month in Charleston. If the 777 line can assemble 8.3 frames per month, so can the main 787 line IMO.

The surge line is a luxury tool to assist a smooth 787-9 ramp-up. Boeing can now assemble the 787-9 without interfering the 787-8 production. Just imagine what would happen if Boeing assembles the 787-9 on the 787-8 line and an issue pops up.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13090 posts, RR: 100
Reply 69, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 33701 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 63):
LN100 is now rolled out to the CHS flightline.

   This is exciting news! When I look over at all things 787, it looks like assembly has been completed on 112 of the 787s (not including ZY997 and ZY998). Or 107 that are for customer delivery... Now there are only two of the "mid-late" and "late" build airframes left in rework. So... I expect rework production to actually slow down (due to more hours per airframe). But as the line accelerates, so will deliveries!   

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 68):
The surge line is a luxury tool to assist a smooth 787-9 ramp-up. Boeing can now assemble the 787-9 without interfering the 787-8 production. Just imagine what would happen if Boeing assembles the 787-9 on the 787-8 line and an issue pops up.

Just imagine if Boeing ramps up all three lines?    Ok, vendor limited... I know... I expect the surge line to be handed over to another airframe after 78J production normalizes.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 70, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 33617 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 68):
2 lines should be enough to support a production rate of 10 frames per month. 7 per month in Everett and 3 per month in Charleston. If the 777 line can assemble 8.3 frames per month, so can the main 787 line IMO.

I agree with your points. Theoretically a 787 should come together quicker than a 777 and a 3 per month rate in Charleston has to have more potential. I believe the current bottle neck are vendors not assembly. I get the impression that we are going to see another rate increase beyond 10 in 2014/2015. A seven year backlog is too long for this program especially with more orders potentially coming in for the -10x.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 68):
The surge line is a luxury tool to assist a smooth 787-9 ramp-up. Boeing can now assemble the 787-9 without interfering the 787-8 production.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 69):
I expect the surge line to be handed over to another airframe after 78J production normalizes.

If this was true for the -9 then why would they not replicate the strategy with the -10x in Charleston? It would partially explain the just announced $1B investment down there. Lightsaber, it sounds like the surge line is going to the 77X program but it sounds like it will happen before 78J production. Plus, I believe the -10x will have to be constructed in Charleston as there is speculation that the -10x fuse will not fit in the Dreamlifter and therefore could not make it to Everett anyway.

5-7 frames per month per line 2014-2016 would put a serious dent in the backlog for sure. Vendor limited indeed.

tortugamon


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 71, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 33576 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 70):
I get the impression that we are going to see another rate increase beyond 10 in 2014/2015.

I expect the production rate to go up to 12 frames per month but not more. Don't forget, once the backlog is down to 2 - 3 years (which is a healthy number) Boeing will have to decrease the rate again (unless they could sell 144 Dreamliners per year which I don't see to happen). So you don't want to increase too much because going down again is expensive.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 70):
If this was true for the -9 then why would they not replicate the strategy with the -10x in Charleston?

There is a chance that Charleston will do the -10X alone because the larger fuselage will probably not fit inside the Dreamlifter.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 70):
It would partially explain the just announced $1B investment down there.

Plenty other stuff might happen in CHS. I doubt that such a huge investment will only be used for an additional assembly line.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 70):
Plus, I believe the -10x will have to be constructed in Charleston as there is speculation that the -10x fuse will not fit in the Dreamlifter and therefore could not make it to Everett anyway.

So now you give the answer by yourself  

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 70):
5-7 frames per month per line 2014-2016 would put a serious dent in the backlog for sure.

Way too much. It's not only vendor limit but also very expensive to cut the production rate again once the backlog has shrunk. Unless one believes they can sell 200 Dreamliners per year to support this high production rate  

[Edited 2013-05-10 13:15:30]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 72, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 33231 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 71):
I expect the production rate to go up to 12 frames per month but not more.

If they top out at 12 they won't reach the 2-3 year backlog until early 2017 and that is assuming zero additional sales and no launch of the -10. Also, if they stop at 12/month some of the orders that they currently have on the books will be delivered after 2020. After penciling in some numbers I agree that the rate could be close to 12 but I think it will get closer to 14 come around 2017 if they have new demand/orders and/or the -10 sells as well as expected.

I agree with your point that you do not want to go backwards on production rates but I do not see how B can sell 18 787s to be delivered starting in 2017 like they did with BA a couple weeks ago. Or the 2018 deliveries of ANA's additional -9s that they ordered in September if they were not planning another rate increase. Also, if they max out at 12 how will they be able to deliver -10x before 2020 without pushing even more 8/9s into next decade? Other than Delta and a portion of these 2012/2013 orders I have a hard time identifying many customers who are expecting their firm orders to be delivered after 2020 let alone those that would love to convert options before then. IMO Boeing has something planned if they are selling these slots given what they know today. Maybe Boeing is planning on a decent amount of -10 conversions which would definitely open up slots -8 and -9 slots and would explain a lot.

I suspect we will see the 787-8/9 production to be at 12/month as you suggest Karel. Then the -10x line in 2017/2018 providing some lift on top of that 12 when it is ramping up for the new derivative like 40-24 is doing with the -9. Maybe they max out close to 14/month during that phase. If orders pick up then you can get the new line on-line sooner. If they do not, then you shut it down once the -10 production matures like they are doing in 2016 with the surge line. Regardless they have a couple years to decide and a lot can change and an additional line in Charleston will give them flexibility. Hard to believe that the 767 never delivered more than 63 units in a year and we are talking more than 2.25 times that rate for the -87.

tortugamon


User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 73, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 33193 times:

Look for Boeing to announce in 2014 that the rate will go to 14 by around 2017.

[Edited 2013-05-10 17:41:03]


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently onlinedynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 873 posts, RR: 9
Reply 74, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 33055 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 67):
I believe engine installation now occurring at position 2 is a byproduct of the new 7/month rate change. Prior to the change, engines were installed at position 4 if I am not mistaken.

Per this article, it was previously position 3. Position 4 was originally meant as a spare position, with all assembly complete by position 3. They've at least moved the aqueous wash to position 4, and probably other tasks as well.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13090 posts, RR: 100
Reply 75, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 32865 times:
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Quoting tortugamon (Reply 70):
Lightsaber, it sounds like the surge line is going to the 77X program but it sounds like it will happen before 78J production. Plus, I believe the -10x will have to be constructed in Charleston as there is speculation that the -10x fuse will not fit in the Dreamlifter and therefore could not make it to Everett anyway.

Interesting. It will depend on the 78J fuse fitting in the Dreamlifter or not... but if the 777X might or might not be made on the surge line. If you have a link I would like to know Boeing's production plans.

Boeing has the option to either ease 78J initial production or 777X production. I expect the 777 to drop to one bay and the 2nd to be converted first to the 777X. But you laid out a very logical argument as to why the 78J won't see Seattle. I'm not convinced, but it is certainly worth thinking about.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 76, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 32672 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 75):
If you have a link

I did not mean to convey my notes as gospel. Just good old fashioned speculation at this point but here you go.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 75):
It will depend on the 78J fuse fitting in the Dreamlifter or not...

Dominic Gates has indicated the following:

---Given the extra length in the 787-10 fuselage, will the center fuselage section still fit inside the big Dreamlifter cargo jets that ferry Dreamliner parts around the globe? All the 787 center fuselages are assembled in North Charleston, S.C. If the 787-10 mid-fuselage were too long for the Dreamlifter, then they couldnt be transported to Everett for final assembly, and all would have to be built in South Carolina. Crabtree expected that question, but said the company doesnt yet have an answer. http://seattletimes.com/html/boeinga...ace/2019631619_boeing78710xml.html

Jon O had the following in flightglobal:
A 2008 diagram of the then-Global Aeronautica facility illustrated three types of centre fuselages on the pulse assembly line. Placing the full stretch in the center fuselage (preventing its air transport), could potentially make Charleston the base for the 787-10, saving tooling costs at Spirit and the nearby aft-fuselage fabrication facility.

Now that does not appear to be an insurmountable obstacle. Although the -9 stretches section 43 and 46 to get a pretty big piece of center fuselage (bad picture of -9 here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/flightblogger/8679419302/in/photostream) the -10x may stretch section 47 as well. Maybe Boeing can combine these sections in Everett instead of in SC like they do now.

In regard to the 777x, that came from Jon O on his facebook page:
---The Temporary Surge Line or TSL is prospectively slated for retirement in 2016 to make way for 777X as to not disrupt current 777 production.
https://www.facebook.com/jonostrower/posts/10101961425903614

I think they will make the 78J in Charleston and consolidate as much of the composite fuselage work in one facility and save on transport and logistics. 2018 EIS. With Boeing recently buying the EMC and this impossibility of transporting the wings, I think they will make the 777X wings there, and transport them to 40-24 for 77X production in 2018 and target EIS in 2019/2020. These planes are so similar it seems silly to change locations. Following the same model as the 737 Max by keeping everything else status quo.

A couple of quotes coming from the Middle East from TC and AAB about 777X EIS and both of them are saying late 2020/2021 so if you think there will be a slow play valve, it looks like we know what they are choosing. What I do not understand is why the 777X program needs the surge line in 2016 if the EIS is not until late 2020 but others are suggesting a non-ME launch customer. Also, do you anticipate a much lower production run rate than 8.3/month for the 777 come 2017 that they could do it with one bay door? The order book goes to late 2016 at this point and I wonder if it will be like the A330 and production will be at all time highs at that point. A ton depends on the A350 obviously. A lot can happen in four years.

tortugamon


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5452 posts, RR: 30
Reply 77, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 32780 times:

It makes too much sense for the -10 to be built in SC, and jives with the expansion there. The 777x will use so much of the tooling of the 777, that it would make transition more than a pain to move production. I imagine that they will be building old and new models simultaneously during the transition phase and if they move production, either they hire a whole new crew, or stop everything while production shifts.

What could carry 777x wings for transport?

I really suspect that some MAX production will move out of Washington to Charleston as well. This is just a wild arsed guess but it keeps getting by the tin foil hat.



What the...?
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1823 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 32696 times:

There was talk about Charleston doing 7 a month in the future, with the expansion I see a great chance of the next new WB project being done in Charleston, leaving Puget Sound to do NBs and producing current models.

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 79, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 32573 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 59):
I also get the impression that VT-ANA is now parked somewhere else.

I asked moonm if he also has a picture of VT-ANA and yes he has   Here is VT-ANA:












Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5452 posts, RR: 30
Reply 80, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32229 times:

That there is 17,000lbs hanging from the tip of each engine pylon kind of blows me away. That's two of my big arsed Dodge pickups...damn.


What the...?
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3547 posts, RR: 26
Reply 81, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 32062 times:
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Quoting tortugamon (Reply 76):
-Given the extra length in the 787-10 fuselage, will the center fuselage section still fit inside the big Dreamlifter cargo jets that ferry Dreamliner parts around the globe?

I'm sure that Boeing being a small company with nominally competent management, they did not consider the transport requirements of the derivatives when they designed the LCF...   

the whole issue is much ado about nothing.. They had not planned on Charleston or buying the sub contractor when the transport plan was developed... so why would they not have made allowances for 2-4 stretches in the sections?


User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 82, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 31961 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 81):
I'm sure that Boeing being a small company with nominally competent management, they did not consider the transport requirements of the derivatives when they designed the LCF...

the whole issue is much ado about nothing.. They had not planned on Charleston or buying the sub contractor when the transport plan was developed... so why would they not have made allowances for 2-4 stretches in the sections?

They can stretch the aft and nose sections of the 787 to achieve the needed 787-10 stretch and can still transport them to Everett with out a problem.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 83, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 31926 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 77):
I really suspect that some MAX production will move out of Washington to Charleston as well.

Now that is a different level of speculation all together. Interesting. In 2009 Boeing said they would invest a $750 Million and hire 3,800 in seven years and instead they invested a billion and hired over 6,000 in only three years. If this expansion is bigger ($1.1 Billion committed) we can only imagine what the plan is. I suspect the 78J and the IT/Design group is only a portion of this plan. Not that I cannot see the benefit of making the 737 in two locations but I think this one has been decided. There were just too many agreements lined up with the union on that one.

Quoting sweair (Reply 78):
There was talk about Charleston doing 7 a month in the future

Yes there was:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-at-14-per-month-787-rate-373494/
When your machinists get paid roughly $14/hour in SC and about $28/hour in WA it is probably not surprising.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 76):
What I do not understand is why the 777X program needs the surge line in 2016 if the EIS is not until late 2020 b

I forgot to mention that Karel in another thread has indicated that regardless of the timing on the 777X program that the surge line would have been shut down in 2016 after -9 ramp up.

Quoting kanban (Reply 81):
I'm sure that Boeing being a small company with nominally competent management, they did not consider the transport requirements of the derivatives when they designed the LCF

I am sure they can find an alternate solution, but no, I don't think they had the -10x designed out in 2003 when they were designing the LCF in order to have understood those transport requirements. If they stretch section 41 and/or 47 instead of just the center section it would make transport much easier. Now they have options and they do not have to let transport potentially limit the design or most economical assembly.

tortugamon


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 84, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 31765 times:

JAL ZA184 (89) up on a C-2

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE184


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3547 posts, RR: 26
Reply 85, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 31617 times:
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Having spent years there and participating in endless scoping meetings (not this program though), they look at the entire program thoroughly with all conceivable variations and stretches before beginning.. especially considering the transportation issues and mod costs for the LCF.

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 86, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 31406 times:

LN81 is in paint and on its way to CHS again.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...3/history/20130511/2000Z/KFTW/KCHS

Painting took only a week.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 87, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 31324 times:

When stretching an aircraft for a second time, I would think that the easiest solution would be to (option #1) stretch the same pieces that were stretched on the first stretch (to the extent possible) and keep as many sections as consistent as possible. I cannot picture a 38' stretch of section 43, 44, and 46 (-8 picture below) fitting in one Dreamlifter. I have a hard time understanding how the 20' -9 stretch will fit as that should take that center section to 104' and from a Boeing release it looks like it is coming out in one piece. The wings fit in at 98 ft and maybe that is why the LCF is 3.5' longer than a 744. As far as I see it, that would only leave: (#2) modifying other sections (41, 47) instead or (#3) send section 43 or 46 in separate pieces and asking Everett to assemble it there instead.

I have no doubt that the -10x was thought about and considered when designing the LCF. However, I would be surprised if the full 10x design was fully hashed out with production planned and understood in '03 as the design has changed since '08. in '03 I would imagine that they would make sure that there was a feasible plan to assemble a hypothetical 10x in Everett with the LCF. I suspect that plan could have been #2 or #3 above which are both feasible plans. By assembling the aircraft in Charleston they could have the option to go with option #1 which IMO is easiest and lowest cost option.

tortugamon



User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 88, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 31210 times:

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 60):
> 7th aircraft (ANN) to be delivered "end of May or in the first week of June" and will operate DEL-ICN route

This airframe has been at Boeing Field for the last week and on Friday it flew from there to Paine and back to BFI as BOE787. I strongly believe Boeing is taking this aircraft to PAS13 to do a flying display similar to what they did with he QR 787 at FARN12. This aircraft may not deliver until mid to late June if it indeed flies at the Paris Air Show.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE787

[Edited 2013-05-11 15:37:31]


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 89, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 31187 times:

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 88):
This airframe has been at Boeing Field for the last week and on Friday it flew from there to Paine and back to BFI as BOE787. I strongly believe Boeing is taking this aircraft to PAS13 to do a flying display similar to what they did with he QR 787 at FARN12. This aircraft may not deliver until mid to late June if it indeed flies at the Paris Air Show.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE787

This article seems to indicate it will be a QTR 787 which makes more sense if AIN's 787 is scheduled to be in service before the airshow.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...-as-airbus-a350-debut-in-flux.html


User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 90, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 31166 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 89):
This article seems to indicate it will be a QTR 787 which makes more sense if AIN's 787 is scheduled to be in service before the airshow.http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...-as-airbus-a350-debut-in-flux.html

Things may have changed since that article. Neither of the two '87s that are ready for QR have flown and I would have thought that if they were to fly in Paris that Boeing pilots would already have been practicing the routine on one of those airframes. Also why send ZA240 to BFI and have it fly around as BOE787?



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 91, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 31053 times:

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 90):
This article seems to indicate it will be a QTR 787 which makes more sense if AIN's 787 is scheduled to be in service before the airshow.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...-as-airbus-a350-debut-in-flux.html

Things may have changed since that article. Neither of the two '87s that are ready for QR have flown and I would have thought that if they were to fly in Paris that Boeing pilots would already have been practicing the routine on one of those airframes. Also why send ZA240 to BFI and have it fly around as BOE787?


You mean ZA242 -- just for bookkeeping purposes. But to throw a couple of comments out there, QTR ZA465 (99) is on the flight line and depending where it is in the order for a battery fix, could easily be available for Paris on the 17th -- ANA (97) was scheduled to fly its B-1 yesterday. If they were practicing for an airshow it would seem they wouldn't be doing it at FL350 so I think if you're correct we'll see a flight profile more indicative of an airshow between now and mid-June and any other flights relate to various flight tests like that on the 5th.


User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 92, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 30962 times:

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 88):
Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 60):
> 7th aircraft (ANN) to be delivered "end of May or in the first week of June" and will operate DEL-ICN route

This airframe has been at Boeing Field for the last week and on Friday it flew from there to Paine and back to BFI as BOE787. I strongly believe Boeing is taking this aircraft to PAS13 to do a flying display similar to what they did with he QR 787 at FARN12. This aircraft may not deliver until mid to late June if it indeed flies at the Paris Air Show.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE787

If that becomes the case, shouldn't affect delivery schedule as VT-ANM in Charleston is defacto ready so AI could take that one in May and take VT-ANN in July upon its return from Paris.

A


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 93, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 30877 times:

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 88):
I strongly believe Boeing is taking this aircraft to PAS13 to do a flying display similar to what they did with he QR 787 at FARN12.

I strongly hope not. It seems like Farn 2012 was great publicity to QR. If I had to choose, AI would not be my number one choice of customer to publicize during the show. Also, I think they clearly have the worst livery and interior (until DY gets delivered IMO). I was really hoping we would see one of the three BA birds because it would show a completely different style of J interior, its a prestigious airline, and its a customer that just announced more orders. I agree that it will probably be QR though.

tortugamon


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 94, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days ago) and read 30518 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 93):
It seems like Farn 2012 was great publicity to QR

Yes but his airplane got damaged during the show and the cabin needed refurbishment afterwards.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13090 posts, RR: 100
Reply 95, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 30004 times:
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Quoting tortugamon (Reply 76):
Placing the full stretch in the center fuselage (preventing its air transport), could potentially make Charleston the base for the 787-10,

I hadn't considered the idea the 'full stretch' would be in one component, but that is the lowest cost approach... So you have a plausible theory. IMHO, 7/month production rate should be sufficient for the J... But that is the trade Boeing would make. A somewhat rigid cap in production... But it could be expanded...


Quoting sweair (Reply 78):
There was talk about Charleston doing 7 a month in the future, with the expansion I see a great chance of the next new WB project being done in Charleston,

Possibly. I personally expect to see more 787 work in Charleston and the 777X in Everett. But never say never...

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 80):
That there is 17,000lbs hanging from the tip of each engine pylon kind of blows me away. That's two of my big arsed Dodge pickups...damn.

And more than 4 of my large Crosstours! Engines are heavy things...

Quoting kanban (Reply 81):
so why would they not have made allowances for 2-4 stretches in the sections?

There is a cost trade study there. The 78J is a minor stretch that could be accommodated by the dreamlifters. But is that the most economical approach? As Boeing has taken in 'lessons learned' on the 787, perhaps the most economical way to make the plane is to produce an even longer center fusalage and keep the other barrel lengths unchanged.

Or perhaps Boeing wants production flexibility... and then they'll stretch the other barrels (all? 3? 2?) so that Everett could also produce the 78J.

I would like to say one or the other is the obvious solution... but it isn't. There are multiple ways to stretch the 787. Due to the CFRP construction, there is more flexibility than with a beer can stretch... IMHO, the answer will come down to projected sales. If A78J sales are projected as very high, then Boeing would want both factories producing it. If projections are for A78J sales below 40% of 787 sales... than Boeing would want to cut engineering costs.

Either way is possible. It will come down to the estimated costs vs. the business plan.

Heck, at some point Boing will want to cut Dreamlifter flights (they are an expense). So why not co-locate?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13090 posts, RR: 100
Reply 96, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 30010 times:
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When can we expect a *delivery* of a production 787 post fix?

Per: http://nyc787.blogspot.com
I see that LN83/ZA512 for ANA and LN89/ZA184 are ready for delivery (with battery fix?) with a HUGE backlog following them...
WIth only 22 'delivered' 787s awaiting the fix, we should soon have teams freed up (if they haven't been already) to work the aircraft at Everett and Charleston.
787 Grounded Aircraft: Back To Service Thread Part 1 (by hkcanadaexpat Apr 29 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 61):
China Southern Airlines hopes to take delivery of its first Boeing 787-8 in late May-2013, ac

I hope that schedule is kept.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5452 posts, RR: 30
Reply 97, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 29840 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 95):
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 80):
That there is 17,000lbs hanging from the tip of each engine pylon kind of blows me away. That's two of my big arsed Dodge pickups...damn.

And more than 4 of my large Crosstours! Engines are heavy things...

I should have added, ' 2 fully loaded pickups'. It's the same weight of 3 of my empty pickups.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 95):
Heck, at some point Boing will want to cut Dreamlifter flights (they are an expense). So why not co-locate?

At some point, Boeing will consolidate production of at least one of the models at either facility...and my guess is the -10 will be exclusive to Charleston. The -8 and -9 will have the most in common between them so alternating them on a production line will be the least disruptive. I think the changes on the -10 will be significant enough that it will lose proportionally more of the commonality enjoyed by the smaller two models.

It's just taking too long for the -10 to be launched for it to be merely a simple stretch anymore. I think they are working very hard at increasing the range/payload of the -10 and those changes will make it unique enough that it will make sense to make it at one location. For one thing, I won't be in the least surprised if the extra span removed from the -9 is added to the -10.



What the...?
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3547 posts, RR: 26
Reply 98, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 29655 times:
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Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 97):
At some point, Boeing will consolidate production of at least one of the models at either facility...and my guess is the -10 will be exclusive to Charleston. The -8 and -9 will have the most in common between them so alternating them on a production line will be the least disruptive.

Why would Boeing need separate FALs when the component pieces all come from the same suppliers who will be grinding out a mix of models in existing plants. The a main idea of the moving line was being able to easily produce multiple models all mixed together.

Now since the wing is apparently changing, will the wing box change?.. that would necessitate a 44 section revision, but fore and aft of that it's business as usual.


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 99, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 29476 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 94):
Yes but his airplane got damaged during the show and the cabin needed refurbishment afterwards.

I had not heard that. I knew there was a fuel truck issue but I thought that did not cause damage. I thought the seats were being changed because Recaro did not design the arm rests to fold all the way back. Interesting. I think QR is pushing for this; AAB loves the attention.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 95):
perhaps the most economical way to make the plane is to produce an even longer center fusalage and keep the other barrel lengths unchanged.

I do not have any reliable information on it but I have read speculation that they will not be able to do it without modifying another section or two.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 95):
If A78J sales are projected as very high, then Boeing would want both factories producing it. If projections are for A78J sales below 40% of 787 sales... than Boeing would want to cut engineering costs.

This is a great point and makes a ton of sense. Indeed if both lines are tapped out at 7/month and if in 10 years the majority of the demand is on the largest variant (just like 77W vs 77E, A333 vs A332, 763 vs 762, etc) then not being able to produce it in Everett could be a problem.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 97):
For one thing, I won't be in the least surprised if the extra span removed from the -9 is added to the -10.
Quoting kanban (Reply 98):
Now since the wing is apparently changing, will the wing box change?.. that would necessitate a 44 section revision, but fore and aft of that it's business as usual.

I have not read much speculation about the wing span increasing for the -10x variant. Interesting. A 60m wing on a 68m plus long body does seem less than optimal.

Quick question: I have asked this in another thread. I know the max passengers on the 788 is 381 and as its stands now the 789 will also have that maximum seat count. If the number of exits does not change on the 789 or 781, do you expect that number to change? I can see some high density regional 772 replacements where a higher seat count will be necessary. It may not be absolutely necessary for the 789 but it will be essential for the 78J yet every rendering I see of the 10x has the same 4 type A exits.

tortugamon


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3547 posts, RR: 26
Reply 100, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 29326 times:
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Quoting tortugamon (Reply 99):
Quick question:

you know sometimes we just have to wait for Boeing to announce what the design will actually be.. they are probably months away from final design freeze.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5452 posts, RR: 30
Reply 101, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 29311 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 99):

I have not read much speculation about the wing span increasing for the -10x variant. Interesting. A 60m wing on a 68m plus long body does seem less than optimal.

Any wing span increase is merely speculation on my part...I only base it on suspecting that Boeing may be going for an increase in MTOW compared to the -9, and since they have a longer wing already designed, it makes sense to use it on the -10.

While I think the smartest move is to do the simple stretch of the -10, keeping the MTOW of the -9, (trading range for payload), I suspect that Boeing, and potential customers, won't be able to keep themselves from demanding more range and the payload.

My opinion is get the quick and dirty stretch done, then worry about a HGW version later...not do it all at once, since the simple stretch will be able to do the majority of jobs necessary, use the minimum of much needed resources, (for the MAX and 777x), get into service the quickest.



What the...?
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 102, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 29364 times:

Came across this story, which contains a bit of a surprise. I've been assuming that Boeing had built about 30 787s during the three-month grounding period - turns out that, according to this, besides the 50 already delivered, they've now completed another 64.

http://www.eturbonews.com/34856/boei...eamliner-increased-production-rate

Of course they will all need to be 'fixed' and tested. But it looks as if the skies are going to be black with 787 delivery flights before long.  

Must admit, I had my doubts about Boeing continuing full production while the grounding was in force. But it turns out to have been a good decision as well as a courageous one. And it will certainly help in terms of cash flow.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinestarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 103, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 29277 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 102):
I've been assuming that Boeing had built about 30 787s during the three-month grounding period - turns out that, according to this, besides the 50 already delivered, they've now completed another 64.

To be fair, that 64 does include all the frames that were in storage/modification and hadn't yet flown before the AD was called. Just between Air India and the Chinese frames, there were probably 15 aircraft that hadn't yet been delivered.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 104, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 29250 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 101):
My opinion is get the quick and dirty stretch done, then worry about a HGW version later
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 101):
get into service the quickest.

I tend to agree. I think it was Boeing's (and their customers') lack of transparency and confidence in the ramp up that has prevented the product launch any sooner. If they can increase the MTOW with only minimal increases in operating weights and it does not negatively influence GE/RR's fuel burn it is probably worth the minimal effort while they are working on sustaining the the ramp up. IMO, adding a larger wing is a departure from that philosophy though. Hopefully we will find out in Paris.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 102):
besides the 50 already delivered, they've now completed another 64.

Unfortunately they are a long way away from having 64 completed at this point. Check out NYC777's great site at http://nyc787.blogspot.com/ LN 114 may have rolled off the line but there are still a lot of work to be done on a large number of frames. Boeing anticipates delivery of approximately 60 frames in 2013 and if 64 were just waiting the fix and ready to go I suspect that figure would be much larger  .

Quoting kanban (Reply 100):
we just have to wait

Ah but what fun would that be? I prefer to speculate than to wait  .

tortugamon


User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 105, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 29089 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 104):
Boeing anticipates delivery of approximately 60 frames in 2013

Actually, Boeing's words are "More than 60".

My spreadsheet currently shows 72 deliveries for 2013 split as follows:
> Air India 8 (1 already)
> China Southern 8
> All Nippon Airways 7
> ILFC 7 (2 Norwegian, 3 Aeromexico, 2 VIP)
> Hainan Air 6
> Japan Airlines 6
> Qatar Airways 6
> TUI Travel Plc 5
> British Airways 5
> LOT Polish 3
> United Airlines 3 (only 2 will enter service in 2013)
> Qantas (Jetstar) 3
> LAN Chile 2
> Royal Brunei Airways 2
> Ethiopian Airlines 1
> Norwegian Air 1

I'd say that figure is probably +/- 4 at this stage with the 4 that could slip being 2 ILFC (VIPs), 1 QAN & 1 QAT.

Cheers
A


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 106, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 29005 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 99):
I had not heard that. I knew there was a fuel truck issue but I thought that did not cause damage.

I don't know the details anymore but it was discussed in one of the earlier 787 production threads, the cabin needed refurbishment after the airshow due to damage.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 104):
Boeing anticipates delivery of approximately 60 frames in 2013 and if 64 were just waiting the fix and ready to go I suspect that figure would be much larger

Boeing always aims for a reasonable number but usually they exceed that number. If they say 60 it will be more something like 70.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 107, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days ago) and read 28842 times:

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 105):
My spreadsheet currently shows 72 deliveries for 2013 split as follows:

Interesting. So it looks like you believe three AI and one JAL aircraft that are currently in the EMC will be delivered this year?

Also, LN 140 would be ANA's #8 this year and it should be 6th in line to enter the Charleston FAL. You have that frame as not ready to go this year? At 2 frames/month it should enter FAL in less than three months, followed by 8 weeks of assembly work and say 5 weeks of slow Charleston flight testing and they should have that bird ready to go in November. I think ANA's LN 147 & 148 in Everett have a shot too.

My over/under is 77 in the 2013 and I am having a hard time predicting if they will have more 787s delivered in the third or forth quarter. I suspect over 80 frames will be ready to go but a couple customers may hold it up.

Hard to believe that there could be more than 120 total 787 frames delivered to 16 airline customers by the end of 2013.

tortugamon


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 108, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 28825 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 106):
Boeing always aims for a reasonable number but usually they exceed that number.

In the current situation they'll probably be bracing themselves for a raft of penalty payments for late delivery. My guess is that Boeing management is driving everyone (including themselves) to 'bust a gut' getting production and delivery back on schedule, or even ahead of it, as soon as ever possible.

Fair enough - that's what anyone with business experience would seek to do..................

I think it's a fair bet that they'll be delivering quite a lot more than 60 aircraft this year?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 109, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 28791 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 102):
I've been assuming that Boeing had built about 30 787s during the three-month grounding period

How do you get to 30 over three months when the production rate just hit 7 per month?


User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 110, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 28625 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 107):
So it looks like you believe three AI and one JAL aircraft that are currently in the EMC will be delivered this year?

Air India's on record (for what that's worth) as getting those three frames pre-Dec (see reply 60) and JAL's frame has been in there the longest so should be no brainer. I'm also assuming the CSN one gets delivered as well (LN 36).

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 107):
Also, LN 140 would be ANA's #8 this year and it should be 6th in line to enter the Charleston FAL. You have that frame as not ready to go this year? At 2 frames/month it should enter FAL in less than three months, followed by 8 weeks of assembly work and say 5 weeks of slow Charleston flight testing and they should have that bird ready to go in November. I think ANA's LN 147 & 148 in Everett have a shot too.

My latest calc don't have Charleston operating that fast. Happy to be proven wrong by the resilient FAL team @ Charleston, but i get the following figures for now: new frame in every 20 days (not 15), FAL time of 80 days. At that rate it puts LN 140 in the FAL during second week of Sep and out end of Nov with a first flight mid/late Dec hence why its not in my spreadsheet.

To get to 72, the last LN from Everett is 143 and the last LN from Charleston is LN 138. Another factor playing towards the 72 figure is forecast deliveries for 2013 offered by the airlines themselves, which interestingly add up to "significantly" more than 60.

Time will tell of course!

Cheers
A


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 111, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 28109 times:

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 110):
new frame in every 20 days (not 15), FAL time of 80 days.

I see where the disconnect is between our numbers, it looks like your assumptions going forward are not yet based upon 2 frames/month. Fair enough, 'believe it when I see it' is probably a good prescription for this program. If they hope to get to 3/month by December they are going to have to ramp up somehow.

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 110):
the last LN from Everett is 143

...And I am sure Google really needs their new airplane. Do these VIP jobs usually get 'delivered' without interiors? I imagine this would need to go to an outside fabricator post delivery for its interior?

tortugamon


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 112, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 28119 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 111):
If they hope to get to 3/month by December they are going to have to ramp up somehow.

Going to 10 frames per month in December means that the first deliveries will follow in January, not in the same month.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 111):
Do these VIP jobs usually get 'delivered' without interiors?

They do.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 113, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 28042 times:

So maybe they won't use a new one, but one that has been in service

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 112):
Do these VIP jobs usually get 'delivered' without interiors?
They do.

And after delivery it takes anywhere from about a year to 3 or 4 years depending on the job.


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 114, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 28069 times:

ANA ZA513 (97) finally made it airborne on its B-1 after trying for 4 days:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE513


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 115, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 27968 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 112):
Going to 10 frames per month in December means that the first deliveries will follow in January, not in the same month.

Right. Theoretically they could be delivering aircraft in January that were produced at November run rates and certainly lower than the 10/month rate. My point was that if Charleston is going to get to 3/month by December they need to sustain two/month soon (they say they are completing 'about two'). I believe hkcanadaexpat's run rates are closer to 1.5/month than two.

tortugamon


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 116, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 27894 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 115):
Right. Theoretically they could be delivering aircraft in January that were produced at November run rates and certainly lower than the 10/month rate. My point was that if Charleston is going to get to 3/month by December they need to sustain two/month soon (they say they are completing 'about two'). I believe hkcanadaexpat's run rates are closer to 1.5/month than two.

If production is now 7/month and the next jump is to 10/month, if CHS is at 1.5 now they may go straight to 3.0. It all depends on whether from a line standpoint it makes sense to go from 1.5 to 2.0. It might be that PAE is at 5.0 and CHS is at 2.0 already to get the 7.0 -- next step 7.0/3.0.

[Edited 2013-05-13 15:00:58]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 117, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 27339 times:

Wings for the first 787-9 have arrived in Everett:







Pictures by moonm.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 118, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 27199 times:

There's also the first picture of the first Aeromexico 787 @ outside the 40-51 in moon's pictures. It just rolled out yesterday from the FAL.

Next up...

Deliveries:
> JA-818A (All Nippon Airways) #18
> JA-830J (Japan Airlines) #8
> SP-LRC (LOT Polish) #3

First Flights:
> JA-834J (Japan Airlines) #9
> A7-BCD (Qatar Airways) #6
> B-2724 (Hainan Airlines) #4 (@ Charleston)
> JA-820A (All Nippon Airways) #20

FAL Rollout:
> A7-BC? (Qatar Airways) #8
> A7-BC? (Qatar Airways) #9 (@ Charleston)
> N-??907 (United Airlines) #7

Cheers
A


User currently onlinedynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 873 posts, RR: 9
Reply 119, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 27034 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 117):
Wings for the first 787-9 have arrived in Everett:

No Dreamlifters available?

[Edited 2013-05-14 03:23:51]

User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 120, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 26588 times:

VT-ANM (Air India #7) just filed its B4 flight (first flight post battery fix) for today out of Charleston.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE241

Assuming all is normal, next flight will be the C1 and delivery before months end (I'm on board with Uresh's assumptions that something is going on with VT-ANN at Boeing Field - Paris Show or something else - and that VT-ANN will be the next delivery in late June despite being defacto ready for delivery on the west coast).

This is a good sign that battery fixes are occurring at Charleston now (B-2722 and B-2723) both flew without full battery fix in the last few weeks.

Cheers
A


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 121, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 26531 times:

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 120):
This is a good sign that battery fixes are occurring at Charleston now (B-2722 and B-2723) both flew without full battery fix in the last few weeks.

I would expect that these two already have the full fix by now.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 122, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 26565 times:

TUI ZA317 (92) scheduled on a C-1 today:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE317


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 123, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 26304 times:

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 119):
No Dreamlifters available?

Good question. I believe there is a Dreamlifter sitting idle at MIA. Wonder why they to bring in the Antonov.

tortugamon


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 124, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 26231 times:

It is common to use other transport vehicles while you're building prototypes. This should minimizes risks.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 125, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 26067 times:

LN83 has been delivered.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 126, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 26025 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 124):
It is common to use other transport vehicles while you're building prototypes. This should minimizes risks.

Boeign still used the Dreamlifters for the all 787-8 delivereis when they were just building those planes in 2007 so I don't think that's it. It might be that the one of the Dreamlifter may have atech issue that needs fixing.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 127, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 25975 times:

Just confirmed that Boeing will load the 1st 787-9 into position 1 on May 30th.

[Edited 2013-05-14 13:28:21]


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6381 posts, RR: 3
Reply 128, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 25877 times:

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 119):
No Dreamlifters available?

Are the wing dimensions on the 789 different from the 788? It could be as simple as Boeing has not built the appropriate fixtures for securing 789 wings in the Dreamlifter yet...so it might have been less risky to subcontract this first delivery  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 129, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 25825 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 128):
Are the wing dimensions on the 789 different from the 788? It could be as simple as Boeing has not built the appropriate fixtures for securing 789 wings in the Dreamlifter yet...so it might have been less risky to subcontract this first delivery

I beleive the wings are the same for the -9 as they are for the -8.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30974 posts, RR: 86
Reply 130, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 25731 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 128):
Are the wing dimensions on the 789 different from the 788?

While the original plan was for a 3m wider span, Boeing is using the same wing for the 787-9 that they are for the 787-8 (and I assume they will use the same for the -10). The lighter weight of the 787-8 wing compensates for the lower aerodynamic efficiency so the range is effectively the same and it simplifies production.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5452 posts, RR: 30
Reply 131, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 25670 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 130):

I'll bet you a diet Mountain Dew that Boeing uses the 63m wing on the -10.



What the...?
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 132, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 25665 times:

We need some argumentation, dear Joe     


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3547 posts, RR: 26
Reply 133, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 25598 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

the odd thing about the wings is they were shipped flat on non standard shipping fixtures, regular shipments are on silver bucks and on edge. (well at a 45 deg angle)..

probable causes :
instrumented where the cradle attaches normally
the An-124 doesn't have enough height clearance for normal shipping buck
one LCF off line for mechanical issues
I thought I saw on parked in the storage area at Paine Field..


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 134, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 25603 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 133):
the odd thing about the wings is they were shipped flat on non standard shipping fixtures, regular shipments are on silver bucks and on edge. (well at a 45 deg angle)..

For those who are wondering, this is the normal procedure:






Pictures found on moonm's Flickr account.

Quoting kanban (Reply 133):
the An-124 doesn't have enough height clearance for normal shipping buck

I guess so, the fat Antonov is wide enough but lacks height  

[Edited 2013-05-14 15:49:13]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5452 posts, RR: 30
Reply 135, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 25578 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 132):

Nothing more exciting than high stakes gambling based on wild guesswork.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 134):
For those who are wondering, this is the normal procedure:

That still looks like a Rube Goldberg setup to me, but it does seem to work...and it is pretty neat.

[Edited 2013-05-14 15:49:28]


What the...?
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3547 posts, RR: 26
Reply 136, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 25517 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 134):
Pictures found on moonm's Flickr account

nice. I spent 1/2 an hour searching for similar shots. Thank you.


User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 137, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 25046 times:

First Norwegian 787 to be delivered June 27 or 28. Second one at the end of July.
One month of flight training on routes from Scandinavia to London/Malaga/Tunis.
Then August 1st launch of long haul routes to New York and Bangkok.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...7-late-june-after-battery-fix.html

Cheers
A


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7559 posts, RR: 18
Reply 138, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 24671 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 125):
LN83 has been delivered.

Who to? And when was it flown out? is this the first to be delivered post- fix?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 139, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 24650 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 138):
Who to?

ANA

LN83 is JA818A (meaning ANA has now half of their 787-8 order).

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 138):
And when was it flown out?

Not yet.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 138):
is this the first to be delivered post- fix?

It is.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 140, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 24387 times:

TUI ZA318 (94) scheduled for a C-1 and TUI ZA317 (92) scheduled for a C-2:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE318

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE317


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2706 posts, RR: 1
Reply 141, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 24106 times:

As always, thank you to All Things 787 (NYC777) and others for the information that is summarized here. For more specific information on the aircraft in production, I recommend going to http://nyc787.blogspot.com/

DELIVERED TO DATE: 51 Aircraft to 8 Airlines

DELIVERIES PRIOR TO 2013
NH-17; JL-7; UA–6; AI-5; QR-5; ET-4; LA-3; LO-2

2013 DELIVERIES TO DATE
L/N 54 - VT-ANJ – 3/28/2013 - AI #6
L/N 83 - JA818A - 5/14/2013 - NH #18

NEXT IN LINE FOR DELIVERY Rough Estimate – The AI, CZ and HU delivery line up is a crapshoot…
L/N 86 – SP-LRC – 5/16/2013 – LO #3
L/N 72 - VT-ANM – x/xx/2013 - AI #7
L/N 43 - B-2727 – x/xx/2013 - CZ #1
L/N 73 - B-2728 – x/xx/2013 - HU #1
L/N 89 – JA830J – 5/xx/2013 – JL #8
L/N 90 - VT-ANN – x/xx/2013 - AI #8
L/N 92 - G-TUIA – 5/30/2013 – BY #1
L/N 76 - B-2722 – x/xx/2013 - HU #2
L/N 34 – B-2725 – x/xx/2013 - CZ #2
L/N 81 - B-2723 – x/xx/2013 - HU #3
L/N 94 - G-TUIB – 6/2/2013 – BY #2
L/N 97 - JA819A - x/xx/2013 - NH #19
L/N 79 - B-2730 – x/xx/2013 - HU #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 87 - SP-LRD – x/xx/2013 – LO #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 88 - SP-LRE – x/xx/2013 – LO #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 93 - B-2733 – x/xx/2013 - CZ #3 Awaiting first flight
L/N 95 - B-2734 – x/xx/2013 – CZ #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 85 - B–2732 - x/xx/2013 - HU #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 96 - G-TUIC – x/xx/2013 – BY #3 Awaiting first flight
L/N 39 - ET-AOO – xx/xx/2013 - ET #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 98 – JA831J – x/xx/2013 - JL #9 Awaiting first flight
L/N 99 - A7-BCD – x/xx/2013 - QR #6 Awaiting first flight
L/N 91 - VT-ANO – x/xx/2013 - AI #9 Awaiting first flight
L/N 100 - B-2735 – x/xx/2013 – CZ #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 101 - JA820A - x/xx/2013 - NH #20 Awaiting first flight
L/N 102 – LN-BKA - 6/27/2013 - DY #1 (ILFC) Awaiting first flight
L/N 103 - A7-BCE – x/xx/2013 - QR #7 Awaiting first flight
L/N 105 – JA832J – x/xx/2013 - JL #10 Awaiting first flight
L/N 32 - VT-ANG – x/xx/2013 - AI #10 Awaiting first flight
L/N 106 - G-TUID – x/xx/2013 – BY #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 107 - JA821A - x/xx/2013 - NH #21 Awaiting first flight
L/N 108 – G-ZBJA - x/xx/2013 - BA #1 Awaiting first flight
L/N 110 - JA822A - x/xx/2013 - NH #22 Awaiting first flight
L/N 111 – G-ZBJB - x/xx/2013 - BA #2 Awaiting first flight
L/N 112 – LN-BKB - 7/xx/2013 - DY #2 (ILFC) Awaiting first flight
L/N 21 – JA823J – x/xx/2013 - JL #11 Awaiting first flight
L/N 114 – G-ZBJC - x/xx/2013 - BA #3 Awaiting first flight
L/N 104 - B-2736 – x/xx/2013 – CZ #6 Awaiting first flight
L/N 115 – XA-??? - x/xx/2013 - AM #1 (ILFC) Awaiting first flight


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13090 posts, RR: 100
Reply 142, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 24016 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 125):
LN83 has been delivered.
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 139):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 138):
is this the first to be delivered post- fix?

It is.

   I'm happy to see the seal has been broken.

Now will it start with a trickle, or a deluge?

Quoting United787 (Reply 141):
2013 DELIVERIES TO DATE
L/N 54 - VT-ANJ – 3/28/2013 - AI #6
L/N 83 - JA818A - 5/14/2013 - NH #18

   Well, that's better than zero...

Quoting United787 (Reply 141):
The AI, CZ and HU delivery line up is a crapshoot…

Unfortunately, soon I would add LO to that group.  

Of the new airilnes, BY, BA, and DY should be fund to watch.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 143, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 23709 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 142):
Of the new airlines, BY, BA, and DY should be fund to watch.
Quoting United787 (Reply 141):
L/N 115 – XA-??? - x/xx/2013 - AM #1 (ILFC) Awaiting first flight

Looks like AM's first 787 has rolled out as well. I have not seen any pictures yet though.


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 144, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 23563 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 142):
Now will it start with a trickle, or a deluge?

My guess is that it will be slow and steady for the next week or two and when all of the battery fix crews return to Everett things will really pick up. I suspect June will be the largest delivery month yet as I imagine the executive team will be doing everything in their power to get as many aircraft delivered by the end of the quarter. It is great to see LN 89 ready for delivery after only 3 test flights. Also, as LN 112 is being promised to DY by the end of July and there are at least 37 aircraft that could be delivered before that and only so many weeks to do it; there is a lot of evidence to assume it will happen pretty quickly.

Up thread I projected about 35 deliveries by August and was told that would be a miracle so maybe I am overly optimistic.

tortugamon


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 145, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 23461 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 144):
I imagine the executive team will be doing everything in their power to get as many aircraft delivered by the end of the quarter.

  

End of quarter/half always has lots of pressure but I'm guessing at this point there'll be lots of pressure all the time until they're caught up.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 144):
I suspect June will be the largest delivery month yet

I don't think it will exceed the 11 in December, I think that will come in July or August. There's only so many flight line mechanics available. I think after 5 or 6 deliveries this month we'll see 11+/- a month the rest of the year.


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 146, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 23349 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 72):
I think it will get closer to 14 come around 2017
Quoting nyc777 (Reply 73):
Look for Boeing to announce in 2014 that the rate will go to 14 by around 2017.

Scott Hamilton is now predicting 14/month as well:

Quote:
But Boeing needs to go beyond 10/mo to 14 to accommodate the 787-10 and demand for the current offerings. With a planned 2018 EIS for the -10, there’s plenty of time to bring the supply chain into line for this.
(the video is definitely worth watching)
http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2013...ss-at-the-airframe-oems/#more-8881


It will be hard to picture many more A330 sales once the production rate hits this level.
tortugamon


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7559 posts, RR: 18
Reply 147, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 23077 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 139):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 142):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 125):
LN83 has been delivered.
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 139):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 138):
is this the first to be delivered post- fix?

It is.

I'm happy to see the seal has been broken.

Now will it start with a trickle, or a deluge?

Quoting United787 (Reply 141):
2013 DELIVERIES TO DATE
L/N 54 - VT-ANJ – 3/28/2013 - AI #6
L/N 83 - JA818A - 5/14/2013 - NH #18

Karel I'm going to send you a PM with my email. When it flies out send me an email.

This is excellent news and I'm certain that NH is satisfied with how things are going.  

Is 818 a domestic or international config?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 148, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 23026 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 147):
Karel I'm going to send you a PM with my email. When it flies out send me an email.

This is excellent news and I'm certain that NH is satisfied with how things are going.  

Is 818 a domestic or international config?

JA-818A is in the sky as we speak. Will land in HND @ 7:15pm local time.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ANA9397

JA-818A is domestic config. As will be the next two deliveries (JA-819A and JA-821A). The two after that (JA-820A and JA-822A) will be international config.

Cheers
A


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 149, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 22868 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 147):
Is 818 a domestic or international config?

Go catch it!  

For the spotters, one can recognize the international ANA 787's as follows: watch for the 2 sealed off windows below the tiles.

International:


Domestic:


[Edited 2013-05-16 00:53:44]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 150, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 22690 times:

The most bullish i've heard so far on the Chinese 787s. It's almost time to start getting excited.

...Several Boeing 787 Dreamliners will arrive at Chinese airlines before June, as Boeing Co resumes deliveries of the jetliners, Boeing China's president said on Wednesday. "The delivery of 787s is on track, and several Dreamliners will be delivered to China this quarter," Marc Allen said...

http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2013-05/16/content_16502923.htm

Firing order is probably something like this (China Southern will get the first one to respect in the in country political ranks of who ordered it first but Hainan will get the bulk of the early frames):

> B-2725 China Southern #1 (Everett - ready for C1 flight)
> B-2722 Hainan Airlines #1 (Charleston - ready for C1 flight)
> B-2723 Hainan Airlines #2 (Charleston - ready for C1 flight)
> B-2728 Hainan Airlines #3 (Everett - ready for post battery fix confirmation flight then C1 flight)
> B-2727 China Southern #2 (Everett - undergoing battery fix @ EMC)

Cheers
A


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7559 posts, RR: 18
Reply 151, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 22639 times:

Karel: thanks for the email and I got it! Albeit the photos are not good quality. When i get home I'll post them here after I edit them a bit. 818A landed very smoothly and quietly. A few local spotters were here and if I didn't tell them it was coming they wouldn't have known, so naturally they were quite excited.


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 152, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 22637 times:

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 150):
...Several Boeing 787 Dreamliners will arrive at Chinese airlines before June

Boeing to deliver 787s to Hainan and China Southern in the next 2 weeks. It's possible but we still have o wait for certification by CAAC.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently onlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 153, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 22601 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 152):
Boeing to deliver 787s to Hainan and China Southern in the next 2 weeks. It's possible but we still have o wait for certification by CAAC.

Agreed. That being said, China Daily is the state-run newspaper here so i doubt they would allow such a story to run if there weren't some truth to its content... Like most here, i'll believe it when i see it!

A


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7559 posts, RR: 18
Reply 154, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 22507 times:

Karel and A, again thanks for the info! http://i41.tinypic.com/2wg4uiw.jpg
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=470415303035031&set=a.197718090304755.49200.119493661460532&type=1&theater

Enjoy!



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11612 posts, RR: 33
Reply 155, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 22157 times:

LN98 B1 flight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...5/history/20130516/2014Z/KPAE/KMWH



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 156, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 22054 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 155):
LN98 B1 flight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B.../KMWH

JAL ZA185 (so you don't have to look it up)


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 157, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 22023 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 152):
wait for certification by CAAC.

I have a hard time understanding how airlines can fly a 787 into China (Dec '12 routes below) yet they do not have the certification. That has to be difficult and frustrating for Chinese airlines especially when their aircraft are ready for them.

JL HND-PEK
ET ADD-CAN
NH HND-PEK

tortugamon


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 158, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21982 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 157):
I have a hard time understanding how airlines can fly a 787 into China (Dec '12 routes below) yet they do not have the certification. That has to be difficult and frustrating for Chinese airlines especially when their aircraft are ready for them.

Each country's aviation authorities cover's aircraft operated by that countries airlines. China cannot certify the 787 for use by United just like the FAA can't certify the 787 for use by Air China.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5754 posts, RR: 47
Reply 159, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21834 times:

LOT Polish 3rd 787 was delivered today. It's supposed to leave later today for Warsw. This is the aircraft that undertook the battery mod certification flights.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6381 posts, RR: 3
Reply 160, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21742 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 157):
I have a hard time understanding how airlines can fly a 787 into China (Dec '12 routes below) yet they do not have the certification. That has to be difficult and frustrating for Chinese airlines especially when their aircraft are ready for them.

JL HND-PEK

Do you think the TU-54, IL-86, or any of various other Soviet types that Aeroflot uset to fly into the west could have had any hope of passing western certification?    The IL-96M was the first (ex) Soviet type that was even designed with passing Western certification standards in mind...ICAO treaties allow aircraft certified in one nation to fly into another, regardless of one country's certification standards in comparison with another's.

Another thing that comes to mind: BA, KL, and a few other 747 operators deactivated doors on their 747-100's and -200's (because they weren't necessary under the home countries' rules). If the aircraft were on the US registry, they would have been grounded until the doors were reactivated. Yet they were allowed to operate to and from the US with the deactivated doors  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 161, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21658 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 158):
Each country's aviation authorities cover's aircraft operated by that countries airlines. China cannot certify the 787 for use by United just like the FAA can't certify the 787 for use by Air China.
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 160):
Do you think the TU-54, IL-86, or any of various other Soviet types that Aeroflot uset to fly into the west could have had any hope of passing western certification?

Absolutely get it guys. I get the certification process and that the US can only certify for its country's aircraft. What do not understand is that how can an aviation authority (China) say we do not know if an aircraft is up to our standards to be based in our country yet and then allow another country's airline to fly into their airspace and pick up passengers (its citizens) with that same unproven aircraft? Just like the EU bans Asian carriers that it feels do not have adequate safety protocols if China has not approved it shouldn't they ban all flights of the type until they sign off? I would like to think that if I could get on an aircraft at my local airport, that aircraft was up to a certain standard regardless of where it was from.

In reality this lack of certification does not have to do with safety as much as posturing and politics. I just think that is frustrating for Boeing and the Chinese airlines.

That 747 example is a good example and had not heard that HELPkid, thanks.

tortugamon


User currently offlineDeltaB717 From Australia, joined Jun 2012, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 162, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21523 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 149):
For the spotters, one can recognize the international ANA 787's as follows: watch for the 2 sealed off windows below the tiles.

Nice one! Thanks mate  


User currently offlinemke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2457 posts, RR: 4
Reply 163, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 21334 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 159):
LOT Polish 3rd 787 was delivered today. It's supposed to leave later today for Warsw.

Good to hear. On a related note, has anyone heard anything about LO leasing a 772? There's currently one enroute YYZ-WAW and while I had heard about the A332 they were getting I don't remember anything about a 777.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/LOT42



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 164, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 21237 times:

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 163):
Good to hear. On a related note, has anyone heard anything about LO leasing a 772? There's currently one enroute YYZ-WAW and while I had heard about the A332 they were getting I don't remember anything about a 777.

It's EuroAtlantic (MAE) out of Portugal, CS-TFM which was originally SIA WB231 (9V-SRA) delivered in June '98. Imagine it's an MAE crew too.


User currently offlinekonrad From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 526 posts, RR: 0
Reply 165,