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Delta Views New Terminal As Symbol Of Modern Age O  
User currently offlinepsa188 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 529 posts, RR: 17
Posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20691 times:

The New York Times has this article on DL. They point out that "At Kennedy, Delta will move most of its flights to Terminal 4, where it is completing a new extension. There will be more gates and security lanes, a large lounge for frequent fliers and an outdoor observation deck."

The bad news: "[t}he doughnut-shaped Terminal 3, which has a leaky roof and plastic buckets that collect rainwater, will be torn down."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/10/bu...tml?pagewanted=2&_r=0&ref=business

189 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20678 times:

Quoting psa188 (Thread starter):
The bad news: "[t}he doughnut-shaped Terminal 3, which has a leaky roof and plastic buckets that collect rainwater, will be torn down."

The day won't come soon enough. Both for Delta employees at JFK and the passengers.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6637 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20656 times:

Is this open yet? Because I see banners here on a.net that seem to indicate that it is open.  
Quoting psa188 (Thread starter):
The bad news: "[t}he doughnut-shaped Terminal 3, which has a leaky roof and plastic buckets that collect rainwater, will be torn down."

Following in the path ofT1,4,5(sorta), 6, 8 & 9

What's left?.....2 and 7?  



I feel woozy....what did you put in that Pudding Pop?
User currently offlinepsa188 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 529 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20622 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 1):
The day won't come soon enough. Both for Delta employees at JFK and the passengers.

I'll agree that Terminal 3, in its present condition, is unacceptable. That said, they should demolish the 1970 "worldport" addition and restore the "jet age" saucer to complement the restored TWA terminal on the other side of T4. Go here http://www.savetheworldport.org/ and sign the petition.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 2):
What's left?.....2 and 7?

Of the "old" terminals, yes. From an architectural standpoint the two least inspiring ones.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8517 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20547 times:
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With Delta taking over almost the entire east half T4 at JFK what does that leave for all the international airlines that use T4 ? SAA, SWISS, Arik Air, KLM, Avianca, Singapore, El AL, EgyptAir, Emirates and too many others all need their JFK space too or did the PANYNJ just not care about the foreign airlines ?

User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20512 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 2):
Is this open yet? Because I see banners here on a.net that seem to indicate that it is open.

T4 will be open in 15 days. DL's throwing a lot of buzz into it though, which is why it seems like it's open already.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20476 times:

A taste of the future (T-4X) can be had in SoHo. It's some sort of mock-up on display.


Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6637 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20408 times:

Looking at google maps, I see a Term 4W and a Term 4E. Where exactly is this new addition? I don't see any room between 4E and Terminal 5  


I feel woozy....what did you put in that Pudding Pop?
User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3008 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20238 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 7):
Looking at google maps, I see a Term 4W and a Term 4E. Where exactly is this new addition?

It's an extension at the end of 4W. On Google maps, if you keep zooming in until you get the "angle" view, you can see newer photographs that show the new addition under construction. It's the dogleg at the end with approx 9 new gates.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20185 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 7):
Looking at google maps, I see a Term 4W and a Term 4E. Where exactly is this new addition? I don't see any room between 4E and Terminal 5

Terminal 4 West is what was extended. If you're zoom in satellite mode is a ways out (if you can also see T3 as well) then the overlay won't show the expansion. If you zoon in further, there are updated satellite photos showing the construction.

I'd also suggest you visit Delta's Facebook page with the T4 expansion site.

https://www.facebook.com/delta/app_349094998536390

It's not just the expansion of the terminal itself. The entire concourse received a face-lift. Delta added the system's largest SkyClub that will include the new SkyDeck concept. FIS/Customs has been expanded. Expanded TSA facilities. Re-designed and expanded land-side area including curbside check-in and terminal check-in to include a segregated/dedicated Sky Priority check-in lounge and security access. Complete re-design of food/concessions options both land-side and post security. State of the art underground baggage carousel system. Just to name a few improvements.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinenyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5803 posts, RR: 47
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20153 times:

Quoting psa188 (Thread starter):
The bad news: "[t}he doughnut-shaped Terminal 3, which has a leaky roof and plastic buckets that collect rainwater, will be torn down."

How's that bad news?



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20112 times:

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 10):

How's that bad news?

Same thing I was thinking. I understand the movement but I don't think anyone will be willing to throw in their own money to support the continued operation (whether as a museum or just a "structure") of T3.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinepsa188 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 529 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19841 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 11):
I understand the movement but I don't think anyone will be willing to throw in their own money to support the continued operation (whether as a museum or just a "structure") of T3.

Thank God that sentiment didn't result in the TWA Flight Center being demolished.

"Adaptive reuse" and "sustainability" are all the rage these days. DL and the Port Authority could find a way to make this work if they wanted to.


User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6936 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19791 times:

Quoting psa188 (Reply 12):
"Adaptive reuse" and "sustainability" are all the rage these days. DL and the Port Authority could find a way to make this work if they wanted to.

Yet the Port Authority isn't creative or resourceful.

I'm definitely angry they are not saving it. You'd figure with DL's constant hard-on with NYC they'd save an architectural masterpiece.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5727 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19620 times:

Quoting psa188 (Thread starter):
The bad news: "[t}he doughnut-shaped Terminal 3, which has a leaky roof and plastic buckets that collect rainwater, will be torn down."
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 1):
The day won't come soon enough. Both for Delta employees at JFK and the passengers.
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 5):
T4 will be open in 15 days. DL's throwing a lot of buzz into it though, which is why it seems like it's open already.

It couldnt have happened sooner. That god awful eyesore and embarrasment to a long dead (and much deserved to be so) airline needs to come down to give DL the room to really be what it should have been all along in NYC. I wont be there on opening day, but I will check out the new terminal on 5/30 and 6/1...cant wait!

Quoting psa188 (Reply 12):
Thank God that sentiment didn't result in the TWA Flight Center being demolished.

"Adaptive reuse" and "sustainability" are all the rage these days. DL and the Port Authority could find a way to make this work if they wanted to.

Not for the amount of money that would be needed to undertake and actually complete such an undertaking. The only reason that saved TWA's T5 was its place on the National Register. The WorldPort was not. Get over it, that relic needs to go and soon.



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlinenomadic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 444 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19605 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 5):
T4 will be open in 15 days. DL's throwing a lot of buzz into it though, which is why it seems like it's open already.[/quot

I passed through Terminal 3 several days ago. I noticed that while not officially open yet, many traditional T3 flights (and some T2) have already moved to T4. Pre departure announcements advised passengers checking in at T3 to take one of the shuttle buses operating continuously between the two buildings. The departure board indicated flights from T4 as operating from "B" gates such as 24B, 25B, 26B etc vs. 23, 24, 25 in the old buildings.

[quote=psa188,reply=3]I'll agree that Terminal 3, in its present condition, is unacceptable. That said, they should demolish the 1970 "worldport" addition and restore the "jet age" saucer to complement the restored TWA terminal on the other side of T4.

I was surprised that T3 was actually in better condition than I expected. There were only a handfull of flights departing mid-day and without the crush of people and the noise, it almost brought back the sedate elegance of the Pan Am days. When T3 comes down it will really make me feel my age...as a pre-teen I watched as it was being built!


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19551 times:

Quoting psa188 (Reply 12):
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 13):

So when can Delta expect the check from yall? I would say in the 3-5Billion range.


Congrats, this is why our country is going right to s**t. No one has the sense to get out of the rain, much less somewhat responsible use of money.   


having said that, If i didn't think I would have a real chance of getting something like cancer, I would gladly fly to JFK to help them remove it. Now if they can just hurry up and take T2 with it.

[Edited 2013-05-09 13:53:32]


yep.
User currently offlineProst From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1249 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19518 times:

Is the Saarinen TWA building even being used for anything now? If this architecturally more significant building hasn't found a new use, this can't bode well for the Worldport.

User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6538 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 19460 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 13):
I'm definitely angry they are not saving it. You'd figure with DL's constant hard-on with NYC they'd save an architectural masterpiece.

Why should Delta Take the heat for not using or improving a falling down terminal that they had nothing to do with? I there are enough people out there that feel like you about this, thn may I suggest you start a grass roots campaign to raise money and then present it ti the airport authority


User currently onlinepetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3394 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 19459 times:

Quoting psa188 (Thread starter):
outdoor observation deck

Is the observation deck airside or landside? Should be an interesting place.



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5727 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 19451 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 18):
Why should Delta Take the heat for not using or improving a falling down terminal that they had nothing to do with? I there are enough people out there that feel like you about this, thn may I suggest you start a grass roots campaign to raise money and then present it ti the airport authority

They've tried. and failed so far. That "Save the Worldport" junk is asinine, and by now, its too late.



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 19379 times:

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 19):
Is the observation deck airside or landside? Should be an interesting place.

The "Sky Deck" will only be accessible via the Sky Club (airside). So it is not really a public observation deck, but rather a benefit to those with access to the lounge.


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5727 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 19337 times:

Quoting michman (Reply 21):
The "Sky Deck" will only be accessible via the Sky Club (airside). So it is not really a public observation deck, but rather a benefit to those with access to the lounge.

  Ahh the perks of being a member flying through JFK! I couldnt think of a better airport for it. I wonder if they'll allow us spotters to take pics from there... 



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 19224 times:

Quoting psa188 (Reply 12):
Thank God that sentiment didn't result in the TWA Flight Center being demolished.

"Adaptive reuse" and "sustainability" are all the rage these days. DL and the Port Authority could find a way to make this work if they wanted to.



I think the only reason why the TWA Flight Center was saved was because B6 was able to build a functional terminal around this structure that better suited their needs. When you look at what B6 did, they didn't even use this structure for their ops. They completely demolished the old TWA airside terminal and built a new terminal from scratch. The TWA flight center is not a functional structure to support today's passenger volumes, thus the reason why it serves no valuable purpose today.

T3 would be in the same situation. It is not very functional for today's traffic volumes. Therefore, a lot of money would need to be reinvested to get it up to today's standards or they could just demolish it and build a more efficient terminal at some point in the future.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 19066 times:

Quoting nomadic (Reply 15):

You missed the "water-flow architecture"? LOL



What gets measured gets done.
25 goldenstate : There is no architectural masterpiece to save. The Worldport in 2013 is an eyesore and a logistical nightmare. It served Pan Am and Delta faithfully
26 PGNCS : Amen, FlyASAGuy2005! That terminal was woefully out of date 25 years ago. Good riddance.
27 alfa164 : Don't confuse the original Terminal 3 "saucer" with the convoluted "worldport" addition that was attached to it. The original terminal was - and coul
28 WesternA318 : The premium transcon passengers donbt get nostaligc over minutae like that. They want efficiency and speed over anything, and the new terminal design
29 DeltaRules : Would there be/have been any way to convert the saucer to serve RJ traffic? I'd think that being able to give the flying saucer another chance to ser
30 Post contains links Prost : Terminal 4 is going to be extended further to handle all of the RJ traffic. http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1882[Edited 2013-05-09 17:59
31 jfklganyc : I was in T3 last week. The saucer is the worst part with leaks and such. Lack of maintenance over the past 5 years as they knew the new terminal was c
32 rwy04lga : Here we go with that again. Been there, done that.
33 luckyone : I must agree. In what looks like it will be my one and only trip through the Worldport/T3 in March of this year I was completely underwhelmed and uni
34 PGNCS : But they don't want to because it is a totally outmoded and unsuitable structure for current needs. Excellent and accurate point. Sure, but why? It w
35 WesternA318 : Thank you lucky, and welcome to my RU list!
36 N867DA : This type of thinking gave New Yorkers the ugly monstrosity known as Madison Square and Penn "Station". Of course, T3 isn't nearly as grand or remark
37 DeltaRules : Right, but I wasn't the one that asked last time. Just a question, based upon an observation I made when connecting there over the last couple of yea
38 Post contains images Deltal1011man : and because the government said they had to. B6 would have loved to be able to bring it to the ground. Now its a empty money pit. Good use of money.
39 rwy04lga : I know, I've been the one espousing that idea for the past couple of years now. Then, in the past year, a famous 'aviator' first acknowledges my idea
40 panamair : Many are gradually moving out or moving over to T4A. EI has already moved to T5. EK uses T4A now, as does SQ. KL is a Skyteam and JV partner with DL
41 Deltal1011man : I believe Virgin America is staying on T4B also.
42 panamair : VX already moved to T4A some time ago - around the same time that VS moved and opened a new Clubhouse.
43 AwysBSB : Not just DL, but Sky Team is missing the great opportunity, since most of the alliance's members that offer first class product fly out of JFK and th
44 Post contains images alfa164 : Does anyone have any data to suggest that Delta should have put a ton of money into T4 because people will pay more money to use it? I doubt it. Some
45 PanAm1971 : After many years of purposeful neglect-Delta says the orginal Worldport saucer must be torn down. Surprise. I think this attempt to destroy a piece of
46 FlyASAGuy2005 : Thank goodness it will not. T4 will open and T3 will be bulldozed. I just wish they had some sort of raffle to those that wanted to do it. The funds
47 alfa164 : Yeah... and while we're at it, let's tear down the Washington Monument - it's just a useless pile of rocks. A cell phone tower would be much more pra
48 tommy767 : There are two parts. One that looks like a green trailer that is, to my understanding ISN'T being bulldozed but the saucer is. That green trailer is
49 cokepopper : The emotions are running into hysteria here lol....As many have pointed out, Just who is suppose to keep funding the "Saucer"? Delta? Taxpayers? I mea
50 rwy04lga : Not EVERY Delta employee wants it torn down. T-5 is a protected landmark, T-3 isn't. THAT'S why T-5 was saved....there was no other reason. Start a c
51 mayor : And all those years since DL took over PA's terminals, people complained what a dump it was and DL should "do something about it". Now, when they ARE
52 curiousflyer : What will happen to T2? It is a cramped dump too. Can T4 be extended all the way to T1?
53 alfa164 : Thank you - that is exactly what should happen. Without the misguided "add-on", the saucer terminal could be a practical, stylish coucourse - and it
54 Post contains images tommy767 : Well, since the P.A. runs the airports, they can save the saucer by taking it out of the grossly overfunded pensions
55 Post contains images mayor : Why don't you just take Greyhound? BTW, lets not forget about the "surly" pax, too[Edited 2013-05-10 10:44:25]
56 alfa164 : These days, I do feel like I am taking Greyhound - and that's something I would like to get away from. Are you one of the people who gives me that im
57 mayor : I doubt it......I retired 8 years ago
58 FlyASAGuy2005 : Are you serious. Can you SERIOUISLY compare a NATIONAL LANDMARK to a passenger terminal? You make the argument seem even more silly. Yes, we do have
59 AwysBSB : Neither airlines nor their workers and passengers that are focused in modifying terminals, since that is a mission of construction companies. Given t
60 FlyASAGuy2005 : So, there will be no benefit to Delta, its employees or passengers that have to treck through T2/3 or avoid the airport on a whole because of it?
61 DeltaRules : Don't know if you're asking for clarification or just making a statement, but the "Green Trailer", complete with its 1970s wallpaper, is Terminal 2.
62 alfa164 : Of course I can. Frank Lloyd Wrights "Falling Water" house; Chicago's Tribune Building; New York's Lever Building; even T5 at JFK, as mentiond often
63 FlyASAGuy2005 : Wouldn't the first step be getting it on the landmark registry. You do realize that the place will be raised in a matter of months, not years right?
64 EaglePower83 : And how do you know??? I used to think it was unfortunate they were tearing down the T3 saucer.......until I landed there with friends one night. It
65 beeweel15 : The bottom line is Delta has destroyed T4 at JFK airport. The terminal which was quite unique at JFK has lost all its ambiance. The places where frien
66 Post contains links braniff : CBS 2 New York covered the "Save the Worldport" campaign just yesterday (May 9, 2013). http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/05/...xt-for-kennedy-airports-
67 Post contains images mayor : Yes, lets blame DL for all of this.......I'm guessing that the PANYNJ had absolutely nothing to do with this?
68 luckyone : Why would you be walking between T1 and T4 to begin with? Second, why wouldn't you just take the AirTrain? If you mean T2-T4 transfers, Delta is prov
69 Post contains links 727LOVER : The building has been denied official landmark status because renovations have altered it too much from its original design. As a result, %u201CWorldp
70 FlyASAGuy2005 : For the record, T2 is in much better shape that T3. Anyone that travels enough on DL through JFK knows this.
71 rwy04lga : Magnificent structure. If you've not been there, do yourself a favor. I doubt the Kaufmann's ever considered tearing it down. Certainly not the Weste
72 beeweel15 : They are building a walk way between T4 and T2 which will be behind securtiy.
73 klkla : I thought they pulled that idea a long time ago and replaced it with shuttle buses?
74 alfa164 : Prior to TSA's expansi Maybe I am wrong here, but I thought the walkways had been cancelled, and the busses were now the plan.
75 rwy04lga : The new plan scrapped the walkway idea and has replaced it with shuttle busses between T4 and T2, post security.
76 AwysBSB : The demolition of T3 frustrates those ones that would be properly using it after its restoration, when it would be playing the premium role again. It
77 mayor : You're right.....it's been several months that the "walkway" plan has been scrapped. "Someone" is not up to date.
78 tommy767 : I smell some port authority slash mafia slash union corruption on this one. How has it changed from it's original design?
79 braniff : Both the Landmarks Commission and the State Historic Preservation Office have stated that the building has been "modified" too much and has lost too
80 tommy767 : There always is internal corruption with the P.A. That is why nothing ever gets done.
81 braniff : Landmark and National Register status don't really protect a building from being demolished. The property owner can still make a good argument with t
82 jfklganyc : Best line and true. PA is broke. They depend on private equity to rebuild airports. Private enterprise doesnt want T3 You can go to the chapels. They
83 braniff : They are broke. However, private equity doesn't drive major projects. Delta's T4 expansion was funded mostly ($825M) by municipal bonds issued by the
84 jetlanta : Dream on. Delta's deal with PANYNJ and JFK-IAT requires T3 to be demolished. PANYNJ wants it down. It is not going to be saved and it certainly isn't
85 Deltal1011man : big part of this thing is the handstand land at T3. With T4B extended T4 loses some hard stands, plus Delta wants more hardstands for aircraft stagin
86 Post contains images AwysBSB : I wonder why PANYNJ does not make Green Parking a scapegoat, instead of the historic building of T3. Given that JFK's terminal system has one of the
87 VC10er : Too many great NY pieces of archetectural masterpieces have been lost - it has been getting far better - but once gone, it's gone forever. Only pictur
88 Polot : 1)The PANYNJ, Delta, nor Skyteam own T1. You can't just tear that down without appeasing LH and JL. 2) Assuming by "Green Parking lot" you mean T2, T
89 alfa164 : Maybe you haven't come up with a "viable option" for T3, but - having been in the business of urban and infrastructure design and development for a q
90 Polot : But it is the on board product that people on the route care about, not the really the airport terminals. It also screws people who want to connect w
91 aviateur : Nobody is more of an airport romantic than I am. Yet I cannot wait for the day that T3 is torn down. I'm sorry, but this building simply doesn't belon
92 AwysBSB : I emphasize that the image I shared is as poorly edited as its proposal is not developed yet. Of course it would be an absurd Green parking lot, T1 a
93 ghifty : I was one of those "Save the Pan Am Worldport" folks. And then I had a layover there. I remember walking into T3 and not realising it was T3. The Pan
94 questions : Eventually T2 will go. Why wasn't the plan: - expand T4B and move DL partially in - demolish T2 - expand T1 and move non SkyTeam airlines from T4 to T
95 Polot : Because T2 is in much better shape than T3. Also your plan requires the cooperation of not just DL, PANYNJ and the Schipol group, as the current one
96 luckyone : The very thing that makes people want to save it IS the reason the building needs to go. The roof. It is a beautiful, albeit impractical design that
97 ghifty : Well I can't imagine it being practical.. the roof overhangs the actual building by, what, 100 feet? How is someone supposed to go under and clean/re
98 mayor : And a hundred years from now, people would look at it and wonder WHY it was ever saved.
99 jfklganyc : "A point made in the defense of the demolition of the old Penn Station at the time was that the cost of maintaining the old structure had become proh
100 ghifty : Penn Station I can understand. But what is significant about JFK T3? The fact that Pan Am used to occupy it. Woop-dee-doo.
101 thegoldenargosy : I'm sorry, but I don't understand why people are sad to see T3 to go. I have fond memories of that terminal. However it's a dump. Even if it was remod
102 Post contains links ghifty : I thought B6 planned to open up the Saarinen Terminal and allow passengers to pass-through--sort of like a lounge. Edit: This is what I mean: http://
103 Prost : How long has JetBlue been in their spiffy new digs in JFK without opening the old Saarinen terminal up? Why would they add expenses to their operation
104 Post contains images Deltal1011man : So they need to take that valuable land for less than 20 flights. Less than that even because I don't believe a 767 will fit under the roof. So that
105 VC10er : Agreed. Apparently nobody came up with an idea as good as the one for the High Line. Or, did but didn't stick with it as the guys who conceived the H
106 FlyASAGuy2005 : Soooo, they shouldn't have added jetways or put THEIR name on THEIR terminal? And the Airtrain is probably the most needed addition. Everything you l
107 braniff : Can someone explain where this arbitrary $3 billion figure came out of? Was it on an official Port Authority RFP and can someone post the link to it?
108 ghifty : I know. I agree. T3 needs to be torn down. Obviously all these additions have crippled it; it can't keep up with the times. That is the point I was t
109 Post contains links AwysBSB : DL will not own the whole T4, so the airline will not stay there forever. Since it will keep increasing in JFK, DL will have to build a large termina
110 cageyjames : If Pan Am hadn't fallen apart and was strong through the 70s and 80s, you know they would have demolished T3 and built a new one to meet their needs.
111 mayor : So, let me get this straight.......you want to park the flight at T-3, load the hi-value customers, push back and repark at T-4 so everyone else can
112 Post contains links and images 727LOVER : OK, let's see if I did this right....... http://www.imageshack.com/photo/my-images/541/jfk5.jpg/ http://www.imageshack.com/photo/my-images/18/jfk8.jpg
113 jfklganyc : I'm a NYC resident. Couldn't care less about Pan Am or TWA. Beyond this forum, few do. It is a significant building because in NYC, in NY State, in t
114 Prost : Who would you propose pay the rent to the PANYNJ? And maintain the building? The Saarinen terminal, as beautiful as it is, is not an income producing
115 jfklganyc : As the Times said, a city gets what it deserves. Most landmarks don't make money. Or whatever money they do make are offset by high costs of maintena
116 Post contains links AwysBSB : If Pan Am has always been successful, its T3 globe would be just flaring with a large terminal aside, like the image in reply 86 suggests. Not differ
117 ghifty : Nope. The Port AUTHORITY is, along with whoever has the money to fund this project. I'm only stating my opinion in regards to why it shouldn't be pre
118 Post contains links and images Polot : Not exactly. View Large View MediumPhoto © Artyom Anikeev - Russian AviaPhoto Team If Pan Am had always been successful they probably would have hav
119 rwy04lga : One only has to look at the pyramids....thousands of years old and still raking in the cash.
120 dtwlax : Where do you suggest to keep the other non-premium passengers who have paid to be on the same flight as the high status loyal members? Big deal. Ther
121 FlyASAGuy2005 : That cannot be a serious comparison. The pyramids (and many structures still standing today considered landmarks were built to stand the test of time
122 braniff : Because of neglect on the part of Delta and the Port Authority. I don't know of any structure intentionally designed to self-destruct after x number
123 Coronado : Delta does not offer First Class I guess it means that Delta front cabin Business Class pax actually work for a living, so they are probably not too s
124 mayor : Amazing how DL gets most of the blame for this, even though it was in very sad shape when DL took over from PA. DL wasn't in all that good a financia
125 rwy04lga : It, very clearly, wasn't meant to be.
126 questions : What is ironic about any discussion of T3 is that DL's operating philosophy is to fly old aircraft they have refurbished.
127 ghifty : Because it's cost-effective to do so.
128 questions : I said it was ironic. I understand the economics of DL's fleet strategy as well as the business case of the T3 demolition.
129 Post contains images ghifty : Woops. Long night for me.
130 EaglePower83 : Uhhh, maybe when it was relatively new. Anyone who knows about material properties knows this stuff fatigues after time and weather (and maybe loads
131 planetime : What flights is Delta planning to fly out of terminal 2 once T4 is opened?
132 Post contains images awysbsb : That is a concourse of the old Sheremetyevo I, which is from the same era of Pan Am's "flying saucer". Unfortunately the location of that building in
133 Post contains images mayor : If they are, and that's a big IF, do you think this is the reason. Since T4 isn't opened yet, don't you think it's a little soon to say whether DL an
134 jetlanta : I love how this entire thread is about saving a hopelessly outdated structure that sits in the middle of one of the very limited pieces of air transpo
135 braniff : LOL that's a bit of an exaggeration don't you think? It's true that airlines have no patience for old outdated buildings that don't serve their needs
136 mayor : After reading most of the posts, I have to say, no.......it's not an exaggeration.....at least not in terms of A.net. And I'M not saying that DL are
137 AwysBSB : That is not the single reason. But why would that not be one of the reasons? If DL will not launch a 1st class product, why keep offering a common te
138 luckyone : They didn't have much of a choice. It was designated a landmark by New York City in 1994, several years before JetBlue even came into existence. It w
139 ghifty : What have you been talking about this whole thread? An entire terminal dedicated to non-existent first class passengers will not exist at JFK. Maybe
140 Post contains images tommy767 : 150 MPH eh? Well it made it through Sandy so it must be built like a brick ****house
141 mayor : I have plenty of esteem for DL. I worked for them for 33 1/2 years and retired in '05, a proud member of the DL family. That means I'm smart enough t
142 AwysBSB : Fortunately, DL is not hemorrhaging Medallion members, since DL ended with just two main competitors: UA and AA. However, DL's situation is not entir
143 mayor : Considering your age and location, gleened from your A.net profile, could you please tell me your source on this as well as your expertise on DL's fa
144 thegoldenargosy : I just feel like we've been hearing about these uses Well said! I would never want to work for any other airline.
145 mayor : The part I'm curious about is this..........why have people taken so long to try and save this building? They didn't need DL planning to tear it down
146 pqdtw : Oh, good god. What are you trying to say? "If Delta will not launch a First Class product" (I'm assuming you mean international first class, which at
147 questions : You obviously do not understand the core of DL's strategy - mass chic. DL is not focusing on exclusive, leading edge, ultra premium service offerings
148 Post contains images questions : For the same reason a curtain separates the cabins on the aircraft... so that those people back there don't touch, even look at, the people up there.
149 braniff : Anything but, and that's what I find frustrating about the posts here on this topic. There's some good facts and arguments, but so much of it is just
150 Post contains images AwysBSB : Given that we are already fed up with enough public data, news, threads, we should guide our discussion to a higher level. Lets base on truths instea
151 questions : Whatever.
152 jetlanta : Well, it seems like this thread is ripe to be locked.
153 alfa164 : Why? You don't l;ike what people are saying?
154 cokepopper : So that is what your thoughts were of Terminal 4 when you went through it? Even though it's not fully open until May 24th? Really? Based on? Just loo
155 Post contains links 727LOVER : WAIT! I gotsa show mo pics! http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/6325/jfk10.jpg
156 jetlanta : Thank god. At least pics make sense! Bring them!
157 AwysBSB : Which terminal Qatar Privilege Club Gold members at DOH usually prefer: the common one (brand new) or the premium terminal? A new thread dedicated to
158 slcdeltarumd11 : Bad news? LOL I love historic things and anything related to aviation but i am glad to see this go! So many bad memories and that place had nothing g
159 FoxBravo : Amen. I'm always happy to look at a 727. Lots of good memories of Delta's in particular. Just to put in my 2 cents before this thread does get locked
160 Post contains links mayor : How about if we base it on truth and facts and not flights of fancy? My point exactly...............you started out almost 20 years too late.........
161 Post contains links 727LOVER : How about a phat L-1011? http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7020/dll10jfkrooftop.jpg
162 AwysBSB : Please, do not level that video's Y class with new DL's area in T4. Disclose that you agree Medallion Terminal is proper for an important special use
163 FoxBravo : Love it! I always enjoyed flying on those too.
164 FlyASAGuy2005 : Sooo, with the demolition date getting every closer, how is all this work looking as far as stopping the current plan. Because as I understand it. As
165 WesternA318 : Even if DL did reinstall the BF lounges and add a Premium First Cabin...we'd lose money hand over fist as our current business model does not support
166 planetime : What flights does DL plan to continue out of Term 2 once the T4 is open?
167 mayor : Oh, sure....the name is proper.....but in no way do I agree that using T-3 is the way to go......it's just not in the cards and nothing I've said, an
168 WesternA318 : LMAO, that video is a riot (Im at work and it was the only thing I could access, lol). But I agree, T3 is just NOT in any shape to be refurbished or
169 FlyASAGuy2005 : Most of the domestic stuff basically. T-4 will also get a mix of domestic and Caribbean flights. The only real segregation of flights to T-4 will be
170 AwysBSB : B6 and construction firms tried to break Saarinen Building's landmark protection, but preservationists' and air enthusiasts' motion was predominant. T
171 WesternA318 : They do, however, they also cater to the thousands of Medallions in the NYC O&D area who use LGA exclusively. Absolutely not. The entire area new
172 AwysBSB : Most of those thousands of Medallions can also be catered via JFK, if it become more attractive for them. As previously posed, if further airside is
173 mayor : Not with JFK being slot-controlled.......
174 FoxBravo : There is nothing they could do to make JFK more attractive than LGA for this Medallion. From where I live, I literally have to drive right past LGA a
175 FlyASAGuy2005 : Have you been to NY? Have you seen JFK and LGA...in person and understand where they are in relation to Manhattan?
176 Prost : AwysBSB, I admire your determination in this endeavor, and that you feel you have such a different vision for what Delta Air Lines can or should be. H
177 questions : It's a few days before the much hyped T4B opens. We all know it will not be an architectural marvel. And we all know it will be a big improvement over
178 Post contains links and images 727LOVER : OK, I've got some questions. Why is it that they don't have this new terminal as a temperary thing and build a brand new state of the art T3? Then th
179 jfklganyc : I think DL is taking a page out of the B6 playbook with T5. Delta is even calling it T4. Airy, glass, spacious, lots of amenities. People rave over T5
180 Post contains links STT757 : If we're talking about the concourses themselves UA's C-3 blows T4B away, square footage wise and architecturally C-3 is bigger and nicer. Obviously
181 AwysBSB : You and most of DL's passengers will have T4 and T2, whereas Diamond Medallion members and J class pax of AF, SV, MU and KE should have a dedicated t
182 jfklganyc : How do you know? The facility hasn't even opened yet. What a ridiculous statement STT. And it kills you that Delta can put on its billboards "Most fl
183 727LOVER : Correct me if I'm wrong, but before 2000, wasn't EWR the busiest?
184 SXDFC : Since quite a few folks here are talking about T3, does anyone have any pictures that show some of the old PA artifacts that are still around in certa
185 jfklganyc : Sure was for a few years. Mega hub stifles competition. DL, UA and AA pulled back for CO. Thats why EWR fliers now pay some of the highest fares in t
186 STT757 : It's shocking how much UA executives have allowed DL to go unchallenged with their "win NY" campaign. it's one thing to let DL outbid them for sponso
187 jfklganyc : Delta has the Mets too! I guess that doesnt mean much :/
188 Post contains links deltacto : Yes This map from October 1991 - just one month prior to the PA acquisition - shows DL in what is now T2. At the time it was called Pan Am Terminal B
189 Post contains links psa188 : Actually, it was just the late 1990s, as the CO hub became strong and before B6 built up JFK. Just compare the numbers here: JFK: http://www.panynj.g
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