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AA New Service To Seoul, South Korea  
User currently offlinenostromopilot From Mexico, joined Feb 2013, 19 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 16664 times:

http://www.asianewsnet.net/American-...direct-flights-from-Seo-46542.html

Did I miss this being discussed? This is a pretty big deal given AA's extremely limited Asian presence. Anyone have info on loads or fanfare regarding the first flight?

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 16592 times:

Yeah, you're late to the party. Discussed here.


AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes (by aacun Oct 24 2012 in Civil Aviation)



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlinenostromopilot From Mexico, joined Feb 2013, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 16029 times:

Uh that's a negative, nothing regarding the launch on Friday was mentioned in that thread, only that it had been announced.

Question stands.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25369 posts, RR: 49
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 15977 times:

And we had a member fly on it

AA27 DFW-ICN On Thursday (by HOONS90 May 6 2013 in Aviation Polls)

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinenostromopilot From Mexico, joined Feb 2013, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 15937 times:

Many thanks LAXintl.

User currently offlinejsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2036 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 15774 times:

I'm booked on this route in late July. Seat map in Y right now is about 60% occupied. I'm on the waitlist for a mileage upgrade to J... when I called for the upgrade, the AA agent said my odds were pretty good based on available inventory but that I probably wouldn't clear until a week or so before the flight.

It's good to see AA trying something new in Asia, where they've traditionally struggled to grow beyond NRT.


User currently offlineDolphinAir747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 15721 times:

Yes, Asian growth has certainly been limited. There have been many rumors od MIA-NRT and DFW-HKG with the 77W, but so far nothing is confirmed.

User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 15619 times:

Good to see AA trying something new to asia beside Japan.
Wouldn't have been wise for AA to start it LAX/ICN instead of DFW?

Or is it because the market from LAX is to flooded compared to DFW
and they can charge there own prices? Either way its good to see AA
open a new Asian route and wish them luck.


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 15552 times:

AA hasn't succeeded in Asia on any routes except NRT. Skeptical they'll do well in ICN. HKG is the no brainer.

User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 15368 times:

Did AA hire Korean speaking FA's? I never saw it mentioned here.


The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineHOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3015 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 15123 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting nostromopilot (Thread starter):
Did I miss this being discussed? This is a pretty big deal given AA's extremely limited Asian presence. Anyone have info on loads or fanfare regarding the first flight?

First DFW-ICN was completely full in Y and from what I observed, full up front as well.
At DFW there was a ceremony with traditional Korean dancers and speeches made by an AA executive (forgot the exact title), Korean consul-general and the CEO of DFW airport. Hors D'oeuvres were also offered in the form of fusion Korean foods such as Korean burritos.
Gift bags were given out with a very neat travel adapter, a Seoul travel guidebook and chopsticks. Service on this flight was simply excellent.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 8):

AA hasn't succeeded in Asia on any routes except NRT. Skeptical they'll do well in ICN. HKG is the no brainer.

Shanghai?

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 9):

Did AA hire Korean speaking FA's? I never saw it mentioned here.

The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.

Yes. I saw at least two in Y class. Announcements were made in Korean as well but it sounded like the flight attendant was second generation Korean American. The AA executive's speech at DFW also made mention of hiring Korean speaking flight attendants.

Pictures of the ceremony and perhaps a trip report will be posted eventually. I'm in Korea for the next 9 days and will be busy, but I'll try my best to get some pictures posted somehow with only my ipad and phone.



The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19701 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 15078 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 9):

Did AA hire Korean speaking FA's? I never saw it mentioned here.

I'd have figured that, given that AA is a huge airline with a lot of F/A's, they'd already have some who happen to speak Korean.


User currently offlinechepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6220 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 15043 times:

PEK as well, they have been operating that route fpr a while now.
With the amount of connections past DFW the flight should work,I would expect HKG out of DFW to be the next Asian destination.



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25369 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 15013 times:

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 10):
Shanghai?

I doubt PVG is doing very hot. Between the endless fare sales, and 3-way airline competition, plus random schedule reductions, I think AA just wants to minimize its losses on the market.

Quoting chepos (Reply 12):
PEK as well, they have been operating that route fpr a while now.

Still stuck with those terrible slot times.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14726 times:

I dont think either SHA or PEK are doing well for AA. They are long term investments. There is too much capacity to China now.

User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12104 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 8):

AA hasn't succeeded in Asia on any routes except NRT. Skeptical they'll do well in ICN

I think it's worth the gamble considering how long Korean Air has been flying Seoul-DFW, and how the route has steadily grown from 3x a week to 5x weekly (and now daily to compete with AA). AA and KE may also be capturing different traffic flows considering that both have a hub on either end of the route (AA capturing the US to Seoul market, and KE looking at DFW-Asia).


User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3404 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11899 times:

As always, full doesn't mean AA is making money.

My friend was able to score a DFW-NRT-HKG-ICN-DFW 7 day trip in November for ~$600 ai, presumably because of some fare sales.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8538 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11864 times:

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 16):
As always, full doesn't mean AA is making money.

  

Not convinced there is a single breakeven AA Asia flight.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11383 times:

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 16):
My friend was able to score a DFW-NRT-HKG-ICN-DFW 7 day trip in November for ~$600 ai, presumably because of some fare sales.

Which airline is that on?



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 11174 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):

I can tell you for a fact DFW-NRT makes profit. The other NRT flights do pretty well. AA gets their shirt handed to the on PEK, HND, and LAX-PVG.

Will DFW-ICN do well? It will definitely do better than LAX-PVG and ORD-PEK.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinePEK777 From China, joined Jun 2012, 148 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 11006 times:

AA's PEK timeslots are a joke. throw their old sea hag flight attendants into the mix, and you have to wonder how anyone ends up on these flights!

User currently offlineORDTLV2414 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10910 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

As a Chicagoian I enjoy AA's connectivity. I flew AA's PEK-ORD and was very impressed and delighted by the flight compared to when I've flown United to Asia.

User currently offlinegdg9 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8612 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
Not convinced there is a single breakeven AA Asia flight.

The two daily DFW-NRT frequencies do very well to my understanding. Good loads in Y, J and F and usually loading up on freight as well.


User currently offlinenostromopilot From Mexico, joined Feb 2013, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7848 times:

PEK777: sea hag flight attendants.

This made me laugh violently. Your comment was so preposterous that it almost did not warrant a response. But I suppose you only value youth for its visual aesthetics where I'd take a veteran experienced flight attendant absolutely any day. One wonders, are you yourself a supermodel? Do you choose your flights solely to ogle young flight attendants? Lol

In other news. Heavy rumint swirling out of LAX crew bases appear to suggest 77Ws will be used for much more than LHR... HKG and SYD are what I'm hearing.


User currently offlinecptmac From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7426 times:

Quoting nostromopilot (Thread starter):
Did I miss this being discussed? This is a pretty big deal given AA's extremely limited Asian presence. Anyone have info on loads or fanfare regarding the first flight?

I was a non-rev on the inaugural flight. The official loads were: F: 14/14 J: 33/37 Y: 180/194

Here are the official loads for flights up to today:

DFW-ICN
5/10 F: 14/14 J: 37/37 Y: 182/194
5/11 F: 14/14 J:32/37 Y: 186/194
5/12 F: 11/14 J: 37/37 Y: 183/194

ICN-DFW
5/10 F: 14/14 J: 28/37 Y: 178/194
5/11 F: 14/14 J: 32/37 Y: 120/194
5/12 F: 12/14 J: 13/37 Y: 49/194 (Yes, not 149)

Overall, DFW-ICN looks pretty healthy for the next several months. ICN-DFW may struggle a little bit.

Here is a link that may answer some of your questions (mentions the hiring of new korean speaking FA's:

http://hub.aa.com/en/nr/pressrelease...asfort-worth-and-seoul-south-korea

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 6):

Yes, Asian growth has certainly been limited. There have been many rumors od MIA-NRT and DFW-HKG with the 77W, but so far nothing is confirmed.

DFW-HKG would be a great addition.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 9):

Did AA hire Korean speaking FA's? I never saw it mentioned here.

Mentioned in the article I posted above.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 10):
First DFW-ICN was completely full in Y and from what I observed, full up front as well.
At DFW there was a ceremony with traditional Korean dancers and speeches made by an AA executive (forgot the exact title), Korean consul-general and the CEO of DFW airport. Hors D'oeuvres were also offered in the form of fusion Korean foods such as Korean burritos.
Gift bags were given out with a very neat travel adapter, a Seoul travel guidebook and chopsticks. Service on this flight was simply excellent.

I was there as well! I remember you informing that you would be at the inaugural on my previous trip report, but I must have forgotten, especially with my recent exams. It is a pity we didn't get to meet up for a heck of an ceremony.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 10):
Yes. I saw at least two in Y class. Announcements were made in Korean as well but it sounded like the flight attendant was second generation Korean American. The AA executive's speech at DFW also made mention of hiring Korean speaking flight attendants.

Pictures of the ceremony and perhaps a trip report will be posted eventually. I'm in Korea for the next 9 days and will be busy, but I'll try my best to get some pictures posted somehow with only my ipad and phone.

Seconded. I will also post a trip report sometime later this week or possibly next week. It'll be interesting to read yours!

Cool story - I was touring the Gyeongbokgung Palace last Saturday and ran into the AA upper managements that were on the flight.


User currently offlinechepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6220 posts, RR: 11
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7591 times:

AA would be crazy to launch LAX to HKG and SYD, CX runs 2 to 3 frequencies to HKG and SYD is a bloodbath from LAX.


Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlinedtwlax From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 794 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7552 times:

Quoting mia305 (Reply 7):
Wouldn't have been wise for AA to start it LAX/ICN instead of DFW?

No way. AA will not survive against Korean and Asiana. These two airlines own the LAX-ICN market.

Quoting chepos (Reply 25):
AA would be crazy to launch LAX to HKG and SYD, CX runs 2 to 3 frequencies to HKG and SYD is a bloodbath from LAX.

Agree


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5577 posts, RR: 5
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7691 times:

Quoting chepos (Reply 25):
AA would be crazy to launch LAX to HKG and SYD

I totally agree with your sentiment... but not your logic:

Quoting chepos (Reply 25):
SYD is a bloodbath from LAX.

This is a myth. All 4 airlines have said that they're profitable SYD-LAX. J/F, in particular, is VERY strong. After HKG, SYD is the only other market where UA can reliably sell 12 F seats. Similarly, LAX is the only other market after LHR where QF even offer F.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineoc2dc From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 369 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 7212 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 15):
AA and KE may also be capturing different traffic flows considering that both have a hub on either end of the route (AA capturing the US to Seoul market, and KE looking at DFW-Asia).

I think you're right about that. Judging by the fact that DFW-ICN has excellent loads and ICN-DFW is struggling seems to imply they are having trouble capturing the Korean market.

Quoting nostromopilot (Reply 23):
I'd take a veteran experienced flight attendant absolutely any day. One wonders, are you yourself a supermodel? Do you choose your flights solely to ogle young flight attendants? Lol

As nice as it is to have experience on your side, you have to realize the older FAs have been dragged through the mud over the years. They have faced everything from the changes after 9/11 to massive voluntary pay cuts(while management received bonuses). Many of the older FAs seem to still be bitter over that, they are working harder than ever and getting paid the same amount they were making 10 years ago. Naturally, unless they absolutely love their jobs, they aren't going to be too happy.

My experience with older AA FAs has been 50/50 at best. Some are the kindest people that make your flight one to remember and others make me fear them to the point that I can't even ask for water when I'm thirsty. I would rather have a freshly trained and newly enthusiastic flight attendant serving me. . .


It is excellent to see AA expanding in Asia. I really hope that this expansion works out so that it opens the doors for more city pairs and expansion in Asia. Hopefully DFW-HKG is next.



I'm not complaining, I'm critiquing...
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7582 posts, RR: 42
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 7030 times:

Quoting chepos (Reply 25):
AA would be crazy to launch LAX to HKG and SYD, CX runs 2 to 3 frequencies to HKG and SYD is a bloodbath from LAX.

Interesting that AA is considering these two destinations. Issues with pilots have been sorted out? I suppose HKG is feasible to the extent it can be served from DFW. It would not make sense to launch HKG from LAX when partner CX already flies this route. Same thing with ORD and JFK.

With respect to SYD, I must say I am somewhat skeptical. QF is the largest carrier on LAX-SYD and AA probably funnels a lot of passengers to QF at LAX and vice versa. Seems to me it's best to maintain the status quo unless the current arrangement is not working financially for AA.

Quoting dtwlax (Reply 26):
AA will not survive against Korean and Asiana. These two airlines own the LAX-ICN market.

I think I agree with you. I am quite curious of how DFW-ICN, on the other hand, will perform for AA. KE has been flying this route for a while, so the entrance of DFW's home carrier will definitely make this a very competitive and interesting market. Will KE prevail thanks to its perceived superior product and the advantage of having the loyalty of Asia-originating pax, or will AA prevail thanks to their new product and the DFW fortress hub advantage? More interestingly, will there be room for both? Interesting times ahead.

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 28):
My experience with older AA FAs has been 50/50 at best. Some are the kindest people that make your flight one to remember and others make me fear them to the point that I can't even ask for water when I'm thirsty.

Last time I had an older AA cabin crewmember, it was an Eagle YYZ-ORD evening flight (ERJ-145) and she was incredibly good... kind, efficient, friendly and really committed to making everybody's flight experience better. I have taken MEX-DFW-MEX flights on mainline since then (MadDogs), but I think the flight attendants were youngish, and nothing to write home about. As you say, this is probably hit and miss, as there are good and bad apples on all age brackets.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 7000 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 29):
With respect to SYD, I must say I am somewhat skeptical. QF is the largest carrier on LAX-SYD and AA probably funnels a lot of passengers to QF at LAX and vice versa. Seems to me it's best to maintain the status quo unless the current arrangement is not working financially for AA.

AA and QF have a JBA; so any AA service in the market would be operated under joint-venture/profit share.



a.
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7582 posts, RR: 42
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6906 times:

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 30):
AA and QF have a JBA; so any AA service in the market would be operated under joint-venture/profit share.

Oh, thanks for the clarification. Then if you agree with me it makes even less sense for AA to launch LAX-SYD when QF already has A380 service with a good number of frequencies.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5577 posts, RR: 5
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6897 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 29):
AA probably funnels a lot of passengers to QF at LAX and vice versa

Absolutely

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 30):
AA and QF have a JBA; so any AA service in the market would be operated under joint-venture/profit share.

The biggest issue I see is that a factor in the ACCC approving the JBA was the AA would not enter the market. This was instrumental in them considering that there would not be a meaningful decrease in competition, as AA was never going to compete.

Quote:
Qantas and American Airlines do not directly compete on any routes, and the information currently available suggests that they are unlikely to directly compete in the future. In light of this, the ACCC considers that the JBA is unlikely to result in any public detriment

Source: http://transition.accc.gov.au/conten...temId/987619/display/acccDecision, and click on "final determination"

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 29):
there are good and bad apples on all age brackets

  



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6913 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 32):
The biggest issue I see is that a factor in the ACCC approving the JBA was the AA would not enter the market. This was instrumental in them considering that there would not be a meaningful decrease in competition, as AA was never going to compete.

It's not an issue. And if the ACC wants to play games and try to stop AA metal from flying under the venture, then DOT will simply have the DL/VA JBA dismantled.



a.
User currently offlineoc2dc From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 369 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6191 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 31):
Oh, thanks for the clarification. Then if you agree with me it makes even less sense for AA to launch LAX-SYD when QF already has A380 service with a good number of frequencies.
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 32):
The biggest issue I see is that a factor in the ACCC approving the JBA was the AA would not enter the market.

Chances of AA launching flights to SYD are just about 0. However, I recently heard something about AA looking into LAX-AKL. I think AKL might be able to work with the QF JBA. However, would AA be allowed to launch such a flight under the JBA?

Quoting dtwlax (Reply 26):
AA will not survive against Korean and Asiana. These two airlines own the LAX-ICN market.
Quoting mia305 (Reply 7):
Wouldn't have been wise for AA to start it LAX/ICN instead of DFW?

Hmmm, I would think AA would get slaughtered on this route as well, but apparently AA route planning is dabbling in the idea of launching LAX-ICN. It would certainly be nice to have American metal on the route, but it's sure to be a money pit.



I'm not complaining, I'm critiquing...
User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 35, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6201 times:

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 34):
Hmmm, I would think AA would get slaughtered on this route as well, but apparently AA route planning is dabbling in the idea of launching LAX-ICN. It would certainly be nice to have American metal on the route, but it's sure to be a money pit.

It is the single largest O&D market between the continental United States and Asia. It's not too far-fetched to think a U.S. carrier can make it work; but yes, given the dominance of Korean airlines on U.S.-Korea routes in general, it won't be easy.



a.
User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5999 times:

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 28):
Judging by the fact that DFW-ICN has excellent loads and ICN-DFW is struggling seems to imply they are having trouble capturing the Korean market.

May is a very busy season for US to Korea traffic, and very light on the other way. This is because many Korean students in US visit home in May. It will take a couple of more months until ICN-DFW flight become full.


User currently offlineripcordd From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1167 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5775 times:

Any chance of ORD-ICN? I know KE and OZ are on it but AA feeds a lot of people to their flights thru ORD

User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5577 posts, RR: 5
Reply 38, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5649 times:

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 34):
would AA be allowed to launch such a flight under the JBA?

The JBA covers both Australia and New Zealand, so I don't see why not.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2188 posts, RR: 15
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5605 times:

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 37):

Any chance of ORD-ICN? I know KE and OZ are on it but AA feeds a lot of people to their flights thru ORD

No. I think that an ORD-ICN flight would be a disaster, possibly even more likely to lose money than a LAX-ICN flight, for several reasons:

1. It would cannibalize the DFW-ICN flight without adding any extra value. DFW is geographically suited to better handle connections over ORD (sans for a few second/third-tier Midwest markets and a few in the Northeast) plus DFW pulls in connections from a vast array of Latin American cities, which ORD does not.

2. Asiana and Korean are very well-entrenched in Chicago and dump sizable ASMs into the market. It's a popular way to connect over ICN to other regions in North/South Asia. KE has gone up to 10x weekly flights in the past, and OZ is going up to daily this summer (from 4x weekly). While there is room for those carriers to add seats and capacity, I do not see there being room for 3 carriers on it.

These two airlines also have a much lower cost base than AA, so basically there would be a bloodbath in terms of fare wars if AA entered the route.

I personally don't believe AA has much future Asian growth in store for Chicago, despite the fact that AA seemed bullish about making Chicago their Asian gateway city back in the early to mid 2000's. There has been too much mixed success with the failures of NGO, DEL and PEK (which is still hanging on for glamour/political reasons). PVG is o-k and NRT is stable. I don't see any other low-hanging fruit that honestly is really all that necessary, to be truthful.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5515 times:

Quoting dtwlax (Reply 26):
AA will not survive against Korean and Asiana. These two airlines own the LAX-ICN market.

That's what people said when TG launched that route and now TG is doing great. TG doesn't even had to do any discount or promotion. There is definitely room for another carrier. AA will do fine if it decides to launch LAX-ICN direct.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25369 posts, RR: 49
Reply 41, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5510 times:

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 40):
That's what people said when TG launched that route and now TG is doing great. TG doesn't even had to do any discount or promotion. There is definitely room for another carrier. AA will do fine if it decides to launch LAX-ICN direct.

Who says TG is doing great?

TG had no choice. With parking the A345 fleet they had to stop somewhere enroute to LAX, and under bilaterals they only had option to utilize Korea or secondary Japan cities like Osaka or Nagoya.

And yes they absolutely discount in the market. Call the ethnic consolidators including here in Los Angeles Koreatown and TG is right up there with rock bottom fares.

Also their loads are not that hot -- 71.6% for the first 4 months of 2013, so I am far from convinced TG is "doing great".
In reality, they likely continue to bleed money on US services.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinecrAAzy From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 787 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5482 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 33):
It's not an issue. And if the ACC wants to play games and try to stop AA metal from flying under the venture, then DOT will simply have the DL/VA JBA dismantled.

1. While AA/QF do have a JBA in place it's been well documented here before that if AA wanted to start flying it's own metal to Australia/NZ the agreement will have to be revised and re-approved. On that note, it's highly likely that AA/QF will win approval for any revised agreement they present.

2. While possible, let's be realistic here. It's very unlikely the DOT will dismantle the DL/VA JBA in retaliation.


IMHO - AA will only enter the LAX-SYD market at the expense of one of the QF flights. I easily see a morning/midday departure SYD-LAX on an AA 773 and a late afternoon departure on a QF A380.


User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 43, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5476 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 41):
And yes they absolutely discount in the market. Call the ethnic consolidators including here in Los Angeles Koreatown and TG is right up there with rock bottom fares.

Also their loads are not that hot -- 71.6% for the first 4 months of 2013, so I am far from convinced TG is "doing great".
In reality, they likely continue to bleed money on US services.

Then I guess I was wrong. TG recently upgauged 772 to 77W and TG has been pushing for Korean government to allow more frequency to a daily operation. Does this mean it was better than expected, rather than doing great? TG has been cheaper than KE or OZ, but substantially higher than one-stop tickets.


User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 44, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5409 times:

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 42):
2. While possible, let's be realistic here. It's very unlikely the DOT will dismantle the DL/VA JBA in retaliation.

If QF/AA were not approved, that's likely excatly what would happen. Just like if any of the EU alliances were to be broken up - break one, break all.

And it'I do not agree it is well documented that further approvals are needed. It's been argued; but I've read through the agreement, and don't believe that to be true. A forward looking statement that AA does not have intentions of flying its own metal to Australia does not create, de facto, a situation where approval must be re-sought if AA wants to fly its own metal to Oceania (which AA is actually, seriously and for real considering doing).

[Edited 2013-05-17 17:48:06]


a.
User currently offlinesydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3066 posts, RR: 19
Reply 45, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4994 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 32):
The biggest issue I see is that a factor in the ACCC approving the JBA was the AA would not enter the market. This was instrumental in them considering that there would not be a meaningful decrease in competition, as AA was never going to compete.

Lets not forget the context that the AA JBA has been going for years and it now competes with both UA and DL/VA. If AA were to decide to fly to SYD, the ACCC would look at the combined AA/QF against UA and against DL/VA and, given their decision re QF/EK and VA/SQ/NZ/EY etc , would no doubt allow the JBA to cover any new AA flights.

If anything, I think AA entering LAX-SYD is a silly move when you have AKL-LAX ripe for competition and when you have a route such as DFW-AKL-MEL which QF would more than happily throw pax at.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 39):
I don't see any other low-hanging fruit that honestly is really all that necessary, to be truthful.

What about ORD-HKG? CX is now on the route but its a Oneworld hub and probably the only bit of low hanging fruit AA should be on out of ORD. Coding with CX should also help it.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5577 posts, RR: 5
Reply 46, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4955 times:

Quoting sydscott (Reply 45):
would no doubt allow the JBA to cover any new AA flights.

I think that you are taking too broad a view. Sure, the ACCC didn't object to EY/SQ/NZ, but if AA enter the market then there would be a legitimate argument for breaking up both TPAC JBAs as UA is put at a serious competitive disadvantage. While they feed MEL themselves, QF/AA and VA/DL vs UA is a pretty one-sided fight.

I read the ACCC decision today, and while I agree that there is nothing that explicitly disallows AA to fly to Australia, similarly there is nothing that permits AA to do so. We shall see, of course, but I'm still sceptical.

Mah, I appreciate that you often have the inside scoop on what's going on at AA, but when you categorically say that AA can fly to Australia under the existing agreement is that your opinion, or are you alluding to legal advise that AA has received? If its the latter then I don't expect you to disclose anything, but if its the former then can you please confirm that?

Quoting sydscott (Reply 45):
If anything, I think AA entering LAX-SYD is a silly move

I fully agree.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 42):
I easily see a morning/midday departure SYD-LAX on an AA 773 and a late afternoon departure on a QF A380.

'

Don't forget that QF107/8 continues onto JFK. While this might seem like a route for AA, QF serving it is pretty important for corporate contracts. Not flying AA is a major selling point for QF, and that's why the route has survived so long. While LAX-JFK did go A330 (the loads aren't spectacular) QF, ultimately, decided that it was more valuable to keep their own metal on the route, and the flight therefore reverted to a 74E.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9424 posts, RR: 14
Reply 47, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4905 times:

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 33):
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 44):

I'll bet anything you wanna bet that not only would the DOT not do so and Delta/Virgin would sue and win if the DOT was so stupid to do so.

They can't hurt Delta because your beloved American got rejected
Just like the outcome of the DL/VS deal will have no effect what so ever on AA/BA. You think if EU rejects VS/DL the DOT is going to pull the plug on AABA. DL/AF and UA/LH? Give me a break.

And it would never come to that. If it truly required approval then the ACC would just give them approval.



yep.
User currently offlinecx828 From Hong Kong, joined May 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4897 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Does AA 77W has the range to do DFW-HKG, quite strong head wind and they carry more passenger than CX.

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 49, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4868 times:

Quoting sydscott (Reply 45):
What about ORD-HKG? CX is now on the route but its a Oneworld hub and probably the only bit of low hanging fruit AA should be on out of ORD. Coding with CX should also help it.

UA and CX can co-exist on this route nicely, but there isnt room for a third carrier. As a local market, ORD-HKG is not much larger than DFW-ICN which most seem to think will struggle with two carriers.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinesydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3066 posts, RR: 19
Reply 50, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4475 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 47):
If it truly required approval then the ACC would just give them approval.

If it came to that, no they wouldn't. There would be a process and if recent history is anything to go by, Virgin would object to it in the same way they objected to QF/EK and the same way EK has objected to VA/NZ. That's not to say it wouldn't be approved in the end, but it's not a foregone conclusion.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 46):
AA enter the market then there would be a legitimate argument for breaking up both TPAC JBAs as UA is put at a serious competitive disadvantage. While they feed MEL themselves, QF/AA and VA/DL vs UA is a pretty one-sided fight.

I don't think your reasoning stacks up because UA is at no more of a disadvantage than what it currently is under the present arrangements. So even if AA started a service to Australia, UA would be in the same competitive position as it is now but it would face more capacity from QF/AA depending on where they fly from. As we agreed LAX - Australia is a silly move but AKL-LAX or DFW-AKL-MEL certainly isn't. And considering they would be new routes or re-starts of old ones, again I don't think this changes the competitive landscape enough to warrant undoing the JBA's. And, interestingly enough, I think that if the JBA's were undone, the ultimate loser on the route would be VA not UA.


User currently offlinecovert From Ghana, joined Oct 2001, 1451 posts, RR: 2
Reply 51, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4197 times:

I'm still waiting for the pictures.


thank goodness for TCAS !
User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 52, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3972 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 47):
I'll bet anything you wanna bet that not only would the DOT not do so and Delta/Virgin would sue and win if the DOT was so stupid to do so.

On what grounds? DOT is allowed to unilaterally end any JBA.



a.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 53, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3940 times:

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 52):

There is a little something call precedent. Where is it? It's just not in th nature or spirit of how the DOT does business in that area.

You're reaching.

Just because they CAN do something doesn't mean they will or that it makes sense to do so to begin with.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 54, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3934 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 53):
There is a little something call precedent. Where is it? It's just not in th nature or spirit of how the DOT does business in that area.

What precedent? The terms of every ATI allow DOT to simply pull it if they belive its no longer good for the public (itself a braod definition). And, honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if DOT pulls ATIs 10-15 years down the road. They have become dangerous competition killers.



a.
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3891 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 47):
Just like the outcome of the DL/VS deal will have no effect what so ever on AA/BA. You think if EU rejects VS/DL the DOT is going to pull the plug on AABA. DL/AF and UA/LH? Give me a break.

The situation is a little different. QF and AA already have a JV. People are arguing that if AA adds flights the ACC will break up the QF/AA JV, and therefore the DOT will do the same with the DL/VA JV...which is reasonable.

DL/VS currently don't have a JV, they are applying for one. If it gets rejected nobody is going to break up the current JVs over the Atlantic, just like how the Star and Sky JVs were not disbanded after the AA/BA tie up was initially rejected. For the situation to similar it would have to be something like OK is currently a member of the Sky JV (but not flying any transatlantic flights) and then the EU deciding that the Sky JV should be broken up because OK decided to start transatlantic flights on their own metal.


User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3205 posts, RR: 9
Reply 56, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3588 times:

With all this talk about AA to Oz, could this be a Plan-B by AA in case the EK/QF relationship cozies up across the Pacific as well? Noone expected the ties with BA to be severed so brutally.

Can the 77W do DFW-SYD without too much of a penalty? DFW-AKL-MEL sounds good and if they're preparing for a QF exit plan, LAX-SYD has to be on the cards as well.

SQ also does ICN-LAX yes?



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineHOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3015 posts, RR: 52
Reply 57, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2996 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

I was finally able to get around to uploading the pictures from the inaugural event. Sorry about the lateness!

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/hl7534/10c90bd43069721a2f2582271536b699.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/hl7534/d94cb85bf8d250d73596be171dfd08ff.jpg

Buffet

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/hl7534/7d58d81027834d1c2614f54972953d42.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/hl7534/6a8933c01c919db4d07d898c2d1fe0ba.jpg

Traditional dance ceremony

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/hl7534/c1fb350b76b3e5668cea1078ca11b3f2.jpg


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/hl7534/16568f75ded40a272e293a5226e7235d.jpg

They handed out a gift bag just before the jetbridge.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/hl7534/cf906b9a50426c6f06a2d8e4f7e872ba.jpg

Contents of the gift bag

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/hl7534/2b601d62a1aacd7ee390e6f4ab5bd5a2.jpg

This box had a travel adaptor in it, but I guess I forgot to take a pic of the actual adaptor itself. D'oh!

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/hl7534/bff8d1260a46506b29ae189fb526ca44.jpg

Shortly after takeoff, they gave out a cookie, which I didn't eat

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/hl7534/e87c84f1acbfbb1f4603736f09d32ac3.jpg



The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
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