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What's Going On In CLE - Part 3  
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4358 posts, RR: 6
Posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 25701 times:
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Due to length of part 2, please continue the discussion here. Previous thread: What's Going On In CLE - Part 2 (by MasseyBrown Jan 24 2013 in Civil Aviation)


Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
249 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 17 hours ago) and read 25455 times:

View from the new control tower, recently topped out:


View from the new control tower.


[Edited 2013-05-14 08:29:00]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 828 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 16 hours ago) and read 25404 times:
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Wow, I knew it was tall based on my drive bys to FedEx but I did not realize it had such a great perspective on the region. Cool shot!


Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 25208 times:

UA is still playing with CLE summer schedule, some days they have 5 LAX (even the 757-300 shows up sometimes) sometimes 2 SEA ( sometimes a 757)..probably others,


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 25127 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 3):
UA is still playing with CLE summer schedule,

As you note, CLE-LAX on June 6th shows a 753, three 739s, and a 738. (The 753 is a 6 A.M. departure; nobody's connecting on that one.) Maybe it's related to a couple of major movies being filmed in CLE in May-June.

I wonder if they're going to blow up East 9th Street again.   



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8186 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 25087 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 4):
I wonder if they're going to blow up East 9th Street again.

How could you tell if they did?



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 25076 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 4):
I wonder if they're going to blow up East 9th Street again.

Looks like the near west side shoreway mostly. Impressive impact if that is what they added a 200+ pax 753 for. Flying on the day after on a 739 CLE>LAX.

Updated: Cleveland’s role in Marvel Studios’ Captain America:The Winter Soldier bring
important economic benefits and some temporary alternate traffic patterns too.

CLEVELAND – This spring, Cleveland will once again be buzzing with excitement as it hosts super heroes and film crews. Partnering with the production company and the Greater Cleveland Film Commission on this film will help position Cleveland to become a location destination for the movie industry and in turn, support local businesses and create jobs for Cleveland area residents. But transforming the streets into a movie set will require some temporatry road closures and alternate routes for motorists and pedestrians from May 18 through June 28, 2013 (weather permitting).

http://clevelandfilm.com/blog2/?cat=3


User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 24942 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 4):
I wonder if they're going to blow up East 9th Street again.

They probably will.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 5):
How could you tell if they did?

E 9th doesn't (usually) have rubble and burning cars strewn across it.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlinefreeze3192 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 24893 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 1):

Can you tell me what is on top of the tower? It looks like there is a Christmas tree sitting at the top.



"A passenger bets his life that his pilot is a worthy heir to an ancient tradition of excellence and professionalism."
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 24817 times:

When will the new tower be in service? What will they do with the old tower?

I know I have brought this up before, but the TSA security areas are way undersized for peak times. Monday was unbelievable at all 3 points at 7:30AM. 30 min wait in the priority line at B. Somehow, they need to add some space to those areas to process more people faster. There is some space above the taxi stand/baggage claim area in the C area at least. If CLE is really going to see 10+% more people in 2013 as it has in Q1, summer is going to be a nightmare.

I see temporary construction offices being setup near the long term parking garage. Any idea what project those are for?


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 24776 times:

Quoting freeze3192 (Reply 8):
Can you tell me what is on top of the tower? It looks like there is a Christmas tree sitting at the top.

Wish I could. I live in Washington. Just guessing - it might be elevator machinery or antenna foundations.

TSA lines: Bad, but good news. It means O&D is up. Early morning seems to be a bad time at lots of hub airports. A surge of O&D comes in the AM, later times of day have a higher percentage of connecting traffic, which (obviously) doesn't go through the TSA lines.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 24769 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 9):
When will the new tower be in service? What will they do with the old tower?

Maybe they can dismantle that tower and move it to TOL since we've been waiting for one for what seems 25 years now....


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 24763 times:

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 11):
Maybe they can dismantle that tower and move it to TOL since we've been waiting for one for what seems 25 years now....

Bad news. The CLE TRACON will expand to include Youngstown, Akron/Canton, and Mansfield airports. I understand that Toledo will (at some point) be consolidated with DTW TRACON. If you're looking solely at a radar scope, it doesn't matter where the scope is located.

Edit: I just checked and TOL will be consolidated with CLE, not DTW. Tower and TRACON (colocated but not the same thing) are scheduled to open in Fall, 2014.

[Edited 2013-05-17 08:24:59]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8186 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 24727 times:

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 7):
E 9th doesn't (usually) have rubble and burning cars strewn across it.

You're dead wrong about the rubble part, it always has rubble, but I'll give you burning cars.

LOL the city's got one road and it's a freakin' disaster.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4544 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 24712 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 12):
Bad news. The CLE TRACON will expand to include Youngstown, Akron/Canton, and Mansfield airports. I understand that Toledo will (at some point) be consolidated with DTW TRACON. If you're looking solely at a radar scope, it doesn't matter where the scope is located.

Edit: I just checked and TOL will be consolidated with CLE, not DTW. Tower and TRACON (colocated but not the same thing) are scheduled to open in Fall, 2014.

Post a link to the source? I know they were talking about it before but the plan was scrubbed. Want to make sure its an actual current plan and not the old one you are still referencing.



Any opinion/comment posted is that of my own and not that of Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 24643 times:

First, I was speaking of the tower only...not the TRACON for TOL...A new tower is needed as the current one still can't see the end of runway 7. Second, while it is scheduled to do what you are saying to, doesn't mean it is going to happen. Logistics still have to be figured out with the 180th ANG on ready alert status. Right now, they have the ability to be off the ground in minimal time and cannot wait on a release. This has been brought up numerous times and to my knowledge (very recent), nothing has changed or worked out. Also, CLE doesn't make sense, it should go to DTW as we handle most overflights into Detroit satellites. Then again, FAA isn't ever really about making sense lately.

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2738 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 24630 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 1):
View from the new control tower, recently topped out:

Hey..... I'm not from Cleveland, but have traveled through there a few times, both by air and car, and I guess that there's some bashing of the city going on (what's a city without some bashing, eh?) .... but I find that with that picture of the skyline..... I have to say that I've found that Cleveland does have a sense of majesty....... and I've only experienced a great city there during my travels there. Nice shot of the city.......

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 15):
I was speaking of the tower only

I think that control towers at airports are probably pretty easily done, and are (just my thinking out loud here) among the lesser expensive items for an airport to replace. I think that it's important for a control tower at an airport be able to see all of the airfield. I've read that even DEN is going to eventually be replacing (sometime in a long-term future) their existing control tower (already among the tallest and newest) at some point as well as more runways and concourses will be added with time.

 


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4544 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 24605 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 16):
I think that control towers at airports are probably pretty easily done, and are (just my thinking out loud here) among the lesser expensive items for an airport to replace. I think that it's important for a control tower at an airport be able to see all of the airfield. I've read that even DEN is going to eventually be replacing (sometime in a long-term future) their existing control tower (already among the tallest and newest) at some point as well as more runways and concourses will be added with time.

If memory serves correctly, TOL has been trying for about 20 years to get the tower replaced. The Port Authority even proposed paying for it themselves and leasing it to the FAA and it was rejected. So not sure how easy it actually is suppose to be. LOL



Any opinion/comment posted is that of my own and not that of Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2738 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 24569 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 17):
So not sure how easy it actually is suppose to be. LOL

I guess in this sense with TOL you are correct..... but airport towers..... really? How difficult or costly can it be to build one? The structure itself is really nothing, just some elevation and windows on top and a way to get up there ...... and then the avionics are needed anyway, so.....???


 


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 24480 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 14):
Post a link to the source? I know they were talking about it before but the plan was scrubbed.

The FAA's Tracon Consolidation Plan was "delayed" because of concerns regarding the NYC area. This plan included CLE Tracon takng over all Ohio airports north of Columbus and Columbus taking everything in the south, except CVG, which isn't in Ohio. Despite the Plan's delay, new tracon construction was approved for Cleveland and Kalamazoo; both facilities are sized to support the consolidation. My understanding from knowledgeable people is that if the revised plan for NYC gets a green light (from Congress among others) there will be procedural tests in the new CLE and AZO Tracons. Effectively, the consolidation for those two locations will be implemented. The new NYC plan is due for public release sometime this month.

Please excuse the weasel-wording 'knowledgeable people'. The CLE consolidation is not a done deal, but it's close. Plan adjustments are always possible. It's also worth noting that previous FAA tracon consolidations in NoCal and Georgia were financial disasters. They think they have fixed it.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 24284 times:

Thursday UA actually scheduled a widebody on IAH-CLE-IAH. It was a 762 subbing for a what is a 735 most days. I don't know if the 762 was the only spare available or if there was some extraordinary load that required it, nevertheless it came and went on schedule.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 24224 times:

^ was it full (in at least one direction)?

User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 828 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 24184 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 20):

Thursday UA actually scheduled a widebody on IAH-CLE-IAH. It was a 762 subbing for a what is a 735 most days. I don't know if the 762 was the only spare available or if there was some extraordinary load that required it, nevertheless it came and went on schedule.

Me thinks it has to do with the two movies filming in town at the moment.



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 672 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 24133 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 4):
I wonder if they're going to blow up East 9th street again.

Of note on our last trip through downtown, we counted "zero" people dressed in suits and ties from Public Square to East 9th via Euclid. It was somewhat reminiscent when Chevy Chase and his family in "Vacation" ended up on the wrong side of town and he rolled down the window and quipped, "we're not from around here. "

Interestingly during my stay on the 9th floor of the Sheraton Hopkins, I counted five United mainline aircraft along the C Concourse and two mainline aircraft that RON at the far side of the banjo-wing; a total of six various series Boeing 737s and an A320. The morning departure bank made Hopkins briefly resemble an earlier age before regional jets became the dominant aircraft. And those heavily loaded CFM-equipped Boeing 739s bound for the west coast do use all but a thousand feet of runway 24L-6R.

The new taller and repositioned control tower looks impressive!

[Edited 2013-05-20 09:30:03]

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8186 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 24050 times:

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 22):
Me thinks it has to do with the two movies filming in town at the moment.

No, it was just outsized COMAT that had to be transported up from Houston. Nothing to do with movies.

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 23):
Of note on our last trip through downtown, we counted "zero" people dressed in suits and ties from Public Square to East 9th via Euclid.

That's Cleveland! I used to work downtown, and it was not uncommon for me to encounter, during my 3 block walk to the building, exactly ZERO other people. At 830AM! Such a weird place.

[Edited 2013-05-20 12:48:43]


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 25, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 24099 times:

Thanks for the compliment, Highflier. Maybe I should remind people that I have a little bit of government access but NO inside information from any airline; I just read and try to make sense of stuff for the fun of it

Is that what my motto means? I guess my Latin isn't as good as I thought. I thought it meant 'Beware lest the bastards vex you,' correct Latin for that doggerel 'Illegitimi non carborundum est', which sounds funnier but isn't Latin at all.

And, while I'm at it, thanks to N766UA for the 762 explanation.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 24040 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 24):
That's Cleveland! I used to work downtown, and it was not uncommon for me to encounter, during my 3 block walk to the building, exactly ZERO other people. At 830AM! Such a weird place.

With a 96.3% occupancy rate for residential and just below 80% for office after a major corporation loss to suburbs, not too worried since my wife reports riding on loaded buses to her work at Cleveland Clinic via Public Square.

Source:http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20130425/FREE/130429883

So back to any CLE airline/airport news?


User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 24250 times:

Try again:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20130425/FREE/130429883


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 28, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 24069 times:

Summer UA schedule shows a morning Q400 to MCI, replacing an ERJ. It adds about a half hour to a two hour trip. I wonder if the equipment choice was traffic driven. If it was a question of ERJ availability, I'm surprised they didn't put the Q4 on CLE-STL.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 23940 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 30):
Summer UA schedule shows a morning Q400 to MCI, replacing an ERJ. It adds about a half hour to a two hour trip. I wonder if the equipment choice was traffic driven. If it was a question of ERJ availability, I'm surprised they didn't put the Q4 on CLE-STL.

That's a long time in prop! The UA schedulers are having fun this summer. I know we have talked a lot about UA putting ER170 on the CLE>IAH route and everyone was not happy. I saw a ER170 on EWR>ORD the other day so don't feel bad CLE!

With essentially 70 ER175's coming on in the next 2 years, what will the impact be to CLE? Have to figure that will take out at least (?) 100 ER145's. Fewer flights w/same capacity? Hope they can at least find it in their hearts to take off the CRJ's on CLE>ORD!

Anyone figured out what the construction trailers are for in the long term parking lot?

What is the demolition in the lot near the A gates destined for?


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 23907 times:

^ Could it be the long-awaited new FIS?

User currently offlineswacle From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 372 posts, RR: 1
Reply 31, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 23834 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 31):
Anyone figured out what the construction trailers are for in the long term parking lot?

What is the demolition in the lot near the A gates destined for?

I have not been able to find plans online, but the construction equipment in long term parking is for parking "upgrades." As I understand it, the employee lot by the now demolished AA facility will become a public surface lot (currently paving the new lot) and the old Long Term garage next to the Sheraton will be demolished and replaced (?) with a new parking structure/lot.

Don



Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 23798 times:

Quoting swacle (Reply 33):
I have not been able to find plans online, but the construction equipment in long term parking is for parking "upgrades." As I understand it, the employee lot by the now demolished AA facility will become a public surface lot (currently paving the new lot) and the old Long Term garage next to the Sheraton will be demolished and replaced (?) with a new parking structure/lot.

A while back, the Sheraton was to be bought by CLE and also torn town w/a big long term lot replacing both structures. Not sure if that ever went through. Hard to believe that the city has not announced the project(s).

On the scheduling side, CR7's now on CLE>MSP for DL vs. CR2's.


User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 672 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 23783 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 34):
A while back, the Sheraton was to be bought be CLE and also torn w/a big long term lot replacing both structures.

I had the opportunity of staying at the Sheraton Hopkins during part of my last CLE visit a few weeks back. When I inquired about the possibility of the hotel being torn down and/or relocated I got incredulous expressions and a firm "no, we're not going anywhere" from all the desk emplyees including the manager.

As for the airport parking garage located a short distance from the Sheraton, it's fate does apparently include an appointment with a wrecking ball. When I walked over from the terminal I noted it was in disrepair with the elevators shut down.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 34, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 23677 times:

A helpful hint from somebody who knows told me the Q400 on the morning CLE-MCI is a maintenance rotation, getting the IAD/EWR based Q400s to their maint. base in MCI.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 23428 times:

Garage update:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...e_long-term_ga.html#incart_m-rpt-2


User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 672 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 23383 times:

That airport parking article in the PD contains an embarrassment of riches; a "temporary" parking structure still going strong in its fifth decade of operation. Using that Cleveland logic you'd think the Romans originally built the Coliseum believing it would be good for a few years until the next emperor tore it down and built a larger one with a retractable roof. And what about the description of a 1,000 space surface replacement lot being part of a Cleveland Hopkins parking improvement package? Now in the dead of a Cleveland winter, Grannie Grunts can plow through the elements the same way the old Kardiac Kids and Brian Sipe played through the snow and winds howling off Lake Erie in the old Municipal Stadium.

Me thinks reducing the 7,100 parking spaces to 5,500 is a thinly veiled attempt to raise the parking rates.


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 23367 times:

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 36):
Me thinks reducing the 7,100 parking spaces to 5,500 is a thinly veiled attempt to raise the parking rates.

Everyone on Snow Rd. rejoices as their rates can go up also.

This solution is a significant disappointment for CLE. They requested a replacement garage and to purchase the hotel and further expand onsite parking to increase revenue, decrease airline fees, and provide more convenient parking for travelers.
Now, all they have done is line the pockets of the Snow Rd. parking garages. Pretty short sighted and certainly not part of any "Master Plan".

I'm not sure of the politics behind this one but CLE just gave away parkers and revenue. Ricky won't be moving the hotel by the terminal as highlighted in the plan nor will he be placing it next to the "onsite gas station" that they just can't seem to get built by the rental return area after 5 years of trying. Perhaps Ricky is out of jet fuel himself. Oh wait, we have new terrazzo I forgot that "win".


User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9174 posts, RR: 18
Reply 38, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 23317 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 29):
Fewer flights w/same capacity? Hope they can at least find it in their hearts to take off the CRJ's on CLE>ORD!

I don't care what anyone thinks. IMO, that is a huge middle finger to the residents of CLE, especially if they wish to go to Chicago! Hub-to-hub flying on UA, and that's how you serve CLE? If there are any regional flights they should be at least CR7s or E70/75 equipment...

WN flies to MDW from CLE, don't they? If I lived there, I'd say screw UA...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 476 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 23248 times:

Yep, more middle fingers: no international service, no talk of it. Severe under capacity to major business centers leading to a hidden tax on all Clevelanders in the form of ridiculous airfares. I have to go to Boston in 2 weeks, the CLE fare is $100 higher than DTW and CVG, $300 higher than CAK, and $400 higher than PIT. Guess which airport I'm not flying from?

What galls me the most is that the Cleveland Growth Association is spending it's money to save the hub? That I don't understand.

I hope Ricky isn't stuck in the politics of a city run airport, that would be unfortunate. . . . .


User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9174 posts, RR: 18
Reply 40, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 23258 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 39):
What galls me the most is that the Cleveland Growth Association is spending it's money to save the hub?

Considering how UA is treating CLE, I'd say UA can go screw itself. Top business markets need capacity, especially business/first class capacity. CRJs don't have any, and the CR7/9/E70/75 equipment only have so many first class seats available. They need a mix of A320/737 equipment if anything. What about CLE-ORD/DEN/HOU/LAX/SFO? I would think that all of these would demand such service if not even 757/A321 equipment.

Even US flies a good mix of mainline equipment to PHL and CLT from PIT, and I anticipate things changing for the better once the AA/US merger goes through.



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineflight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3383 posts, RR: 6
Reply 41, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 23193 times:

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 40):
Considering how UA is treating CLE, I'd say UA can go screw itself. Top business markets need capacity, especially business/first class capacity

So just because UA in some cases doesn't offer enough capacity and first class seats for your liking UA should go "screw" themselves? I'm pretty sure Cleveland is better off with their current level of service then nothing at all.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 40):
What about CLE-ORD/DEN/HOU/LAX/SFO?

With the exception of flights to O'Hare (which has hourly service from CLE and one or two mainline flights) most of those cities has mainline service from Cleveland. LAX and SFO is all mainline. Not sure why you'd think CLE would have service to HOU.


User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 23145 times:

Quoting flight152 (Reply 41):
I'm pretty sure Cleveland is better off with their current level of service then nothing at all.

Maybe better than nothing at all. The current level of service coupled with the numerous complaints of price gouging detailed above and in thread 1 and documented evidence of greater reliance on surrounding airports as a result is more than enough reason to be dissatisfied.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 43, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 23145 times:

To be fair to UA, they are not picking on CLE. Or maybe it would be better said: they are not picking ONLY on CLE. Their fleet is a mess with a zillion configurations and shortages of the larger RJs. They can't put out a consistent product. Pilot integration is still an open item. The Colgan bankruptcy disrupted the Connection operation - it's only now recovering. Boeing's 787 fiasco still reverberates.

Lest CLE feel too special, IAD users also have major gripes about getting the worst of the fleet assigned to their routes, especially transAtlantic.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 23061 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 43):
They can't put out a consistent product.

Or provide consistent service with soooo many regional carriers it also makes it hard to provide service with swaps, a/c, crew, etc. One good thing about CO and XJ was they had a very consistent product. UA must get rid of some of the regional providers to help themselves out since they have so many regional flights. Here's to hoping the (up to) 110 ER175's due in 2014-2015 help this out.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 43):
Lest CLE feel too special, IAD users also have major gripes about getting the worst of the fleet assigned to their routes, especially transAtlantic.

IAD does have some real gripes. As mentioned before, so does EWR as you even see RJ's on the ORD>EWR route which is amazing.

Upon further thinking about the parking garage, I just can't figure out how the ROI on putting up a new structure was not there. I realize that you can get 1,000 spots of revenue for the $24mm they plan on spending. With what looks like a double digit increase in passenger traffic at CLE, it even makes the decision more confusing not to put up a bigger parking structure to make the airport more convenient to travelers and competitive airports.


User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9174 posts, RR: 18
Reply 45, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 22943 times:

Quoting flight152 (Reply 41):
So just because UA in some cases doesn't offer enough capacity and first class seats for your liking UA should go "screw" themselves? I'm pretty sure Cleveland is better off with their current level of service then nothing at all.

As someone who watched a certain airline dismantle a hub at his hometown, yes. By "screwing" itself, I mean dropping the hub. Besides, for a while that was my opinion about US. For now, I do have to say PIT is probably better off. Other airlines came in, drove down fares and boosted local traffic. Maybe someone will do the same with CLE in the coming years...

Quoting flight152 (Reply 41):
LAX and SFO is all mainline. Not sure why you'd think CLE would have service to HOU.

I was actually referring to IAH. My bad...

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 44):
IAD does have some real gripes. As mentioned before, so does EWR as you even see RJ's on the ORD>EWR route which is amazing.

Wow... Did not realize that. That, to me, should see nothing but mainline. After reading the last few posts, it is very clear that UA is poorly managed -- equipment issues aside...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22781 times:

CLE has about half the spots of PIT, CMH, and IND per the article below. Lots of lost revenue.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...ncart_river_default#incart_m-rpt-2


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16798 posts, RR: 51
Reply 47, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22760 times:

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 45):
Wow... Did not realize that. That, to me, should see nothing but mainline. After reading the last few posts, it is very clear that UA is poorly managed -- equipment issues aside...

EWR-ORD is 16 daily, 5 of those are 70 seat ERJ-170s. The rest are a combination of A319s, A320s, 737s and 757s. I think those ERJ-170s are repositioning flights.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 48, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 22701 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 46):
CLE has about half the spots of PIT, CMH, and IND per the article below. Lots of lost revenue.

Conversely, I wonder if those airports are over-supplied with parking. Just a thought.  

My guess is the airport is trying to avoid those capital expenses that come far in advance of revenue, as would fronting the construction costs of an xxx million dollar multi-story lot - at least until they can pay down some debt. The airport's debt is about $900 million - an astonishing sum, considering the age of the facilities.

The snow issue is real, but peak demand doesn't come in the snowiest part of the winter. Then, too, those off-airport lots pay taxes.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8186 posts, RR: 24
Reply 49, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 22611 times:

CLE-AUS starts in September with a CR7. A new route and it's NOT an ERJ!


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9174 posts, RR: 18
Reply 50, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 22580 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 47):
EWR-ORD is 16 daily, 5 of those are 70 seat ERJ-170s. The rest are a combination of A319s, A320s, 737s and 757s. I think those ERJ-170s are repositioning flights.

Hmm... the way Fun2Fly was wording it, he made it look like UA was running a ton of ERJs on that route. Thanks for indicating otherwise!

I guess at the same time, I should exercise common sense a little more.   



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16798 posts, RR: 51
Reply 51, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 22585 times:

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 50):
Hmm... the way Fun2Fly was wording it, he made it look like UA was running a ton of ERJs on that route. Thanks for indicating otherwise!

EWR-ORD July 12, 2013

3 A319, 2 A320, 3 73G, 1 738, 1 739, 2 757, 5 ERJ-170.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 52, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 22448 times:

On August 27th AA will convert two of its CLE-DFW flights to brand new A319's and Sep 16 the third and last MD-80 goes.



Edit: This info is based on AA's currently posted schedule, which differs from the AA A319 thread appearing elsewhere on a.net. Not sure which is correct, but I'm goiung with AA for now.

[Edited 2013-06-05 20:41:07]

[Edited 2013-06-05 20:41:49]

More edits: AA's info differs internally. Apparently the a.net thread is correct, as far as itr goes. Sept 16th, two A319's begin, with the third arriving in October.


[Edited 2013-06-05 21:14:47]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 53, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 22318 times:

Lessons for CLE in MEM:

1. Cuts costs.

2. Get UA to commit to int'l service. Neither UA, DL, nor AA will operate a hub without international routes.

Hubs need to minimize the inherent burden of costs per transit passenger. CLE's Cost per Emplaned Passenger has gone from $9.59 in 2009 to $15.52 in 2011. Costs failed to come down as passenger volume fell. Government agencies *always* claim that "our hands are tied; we can't cut costs", which of course is BS. Find a way. At the same time CLE's debt has gone off the track:
2008 $919 million
2009 $839
2010 $824
2011 $874

What happened in 2011 that was worth $50 million? The AirMall? If vendor rentals are more than amortizing that cost, we haven't seen the numbers to prove it yet. Maybe there is an answer to the $50 million dollar question, but I can't find it. The debt pop in 2011 and the overall debt level is probably why CLE is cutting corners on parking.

So - with the money saved by not building a parking lot, offer the airlines a new Federal Inspection Station 'for free' - a straight contribution from the city - no increase to user fees. If CO's estimate of $3-5 million cost is still good, this is less than other cities have offered as straight subsidy for int'l service and at least the city would have something to show for their money.

If UA refuses, the jig is probably up when the 50 seaters are gone, and the hub is doomed. If UA refuses, the city needs to cut its losses and recruit an airline with international aspirations that needs a midwestern hub. The usual suspects come to mind and they are all unappealing for various reasons. One highlight of the CO/UA days, however, was continued proof that a CLE hub can turn a profit, which is more than Virgin America has been able to do in SFO, LAX, etc.

If UA goes, the next airline that comes along will no doubt look like a welfare case walking in the door, but so was CO when they first arrived.

Maybe the airport is already trying this stuff - Ricky Smith isn't an idiot; but who knows? We hear nothing. Perhaps, like other costly, no-longer-supportable pieces of Cleveland's infrastructure, the airport should be transferred to the county. Would the city give it up? Probably not until they're forced to (maybe by UA's departure); it's one of the last big pork barrels left.

I considered not posting this, but WTH ... it's a rainy day here.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 828 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 22223 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I remain optimistic about getting a new FIS facility and know we are not going to get TATL service from UA until we replace that embarrassment in Terminal A. Beyond the fact that it is an eyesore and inconvenient, I do not think it is large enough to handle a full 763/4. But, from what I understand, nothing is going to move forward until the new tower is open and they can knock down the old one, which is the preferred location for a new FIS facility.


Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 22203 times:

What work are they doing now over in A that has caused the US gates to be cordoned off?

User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 22137 times:

Massey---and I think I've mentioned this before based on something else you had written--if you have any influence or connections with the decisions makers in the City (whether Ricky Smith or the Mayor), please reach out to them and offer your above advice. I think you are on target with respect to what the city should do. I've long held that the greatest priority at CLE is a new FIS---and that the city should bear the cost.

(I don't agree though about the county taking over Hopkins, as I hate seeing city assets disappear one by one over the past decades as it only weakens the city.)


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 57, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 22103 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 56):
if you have any influence or connections with the decisions makers in the City (whether Ricky Smith or the Mayor),

I don't.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 22090 times:

^perhaps write anyway--its sound advice!

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 59, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 21920 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 58):
perhaps write anyway--its sound advice!

Probably no need, I'd bet Smith has thought of all this and more. He keeps a low profile but seems like a realist.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 21886 times:

^except for the fact that he's been there quite a while and no new FIS has been built despite it being perhaps the single-most important need for the airport. And he's spent money on other things (AirMall, for example.) As you said, any hub needs int'l service. If the city wants to keep UA, it must provide a decent FIS.

User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (1 year 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 21684 times:

UA gave DEN a 787 route to NRT, which started this week. CLE is a stronger market than DEN for Asia, yet UA chose DEN. I hope the CLE marketing folks are doing job regarding promoting the city....

User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 21626 times:

At this point UA has no interest in CLE, so I think the city needs to get a carrier like AA,BA, or even DL to start some international service.


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (1 year 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 21570 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 53):
I considered not posting this, but WTH ... it's a rainy day here.

Glad you did, excellent post.

What about the Greater Cleveland Partnership? They are the ones supporting Unitedforthehub.com. Surely they have the ability to get the $3-5mm to make it happen either themselves or via donation.

Also, when the city had $93mm leftover from the Medical Mart and setup this new $350mm of spending, they did not put in the extra $3-5mm for the FIS. That alone probably tells you something about Mayor Frank. Perhaps his replacement will make it happen.

As we've all said, filling a 210 or so seat 763 should not be a problem for UA and certainly filling a 752 to LHR for AA or BA would not either.

Regarding the debt, that is alarming. What will the affect of the 15% or so increase in PAX be on that if it holds true in 2013?

Well, on the positive side, UA is making $$ here or they would be gone already.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 64, posted (1 year 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 21549 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 63):
Also, when the city had $93mm leftover from the Medical Mart and setup this new $350mm of spending, they did not put in the extra $3-5mm for the FIS. That alone probably tells you something about Mayor Frank. Perhaps his replacement will make it happen.

We don't know what UA has been telling the city in confidence. Perhaps the city already knows UA's long-term plans - meaning either 1) they're pleased but sworn to secrecy or 2) they're horrified and stunned into silence. Who knows? The Thomas Administration wisely has never been very chatty about the future even when they know it with certainty.



Quoting fun2fly (Reply 63):
Regarding the debt, that is alarming. What will the affect of the 15% or so increase in PAX be on that if it holds true in 2013?

More pax = more PFC charges = more revenue to service the debt or lower landing fees or build a FIS. Many tradeoffs are possible with extra revenue. The trouble will come if UA really shuts down the hub and the debt has to be supported by fewer flights and fewer pax. That will drive costs for the airlines through the roof, making them reluctant to add flights. (One ray of sunshine: I believe UA is directly responsible for all the debt associated with Concourse D, about ninety million; paying that off would be one part of their cost of leaving town.)



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 21353 times:

^the "Thomas" Administration---do you mean Jackson? if not, I'm missing something....

An entirely new FIS would cost more than $3-5M I would expect. If I recall correctly, I remember the number 35M being cited once, but it was, unfortunately, not a bid of any type... Regardless, though, i think the City and perhaps the business community if possible as cited by fun2fly should pony up the cash---and not place that burden on an airline (UA or AA or anyone) who is isn't dying to offer int'l service in the first place. Cleveland should build it. If UA doesn't jump being best positioned, then LH/BA/AA would likely grab the opportunity. But like the new convention center hotel announced downtown, which is getting heavy public assistance (including the land), the FIS, too, needs a push from the public sector to help the private sector along, which will ultimately benefit the city through greater tax and PFC revenue (to include hotel taxes, income taxes from new jobs, sales taxes, sales taxes at the airport itself...). It's actually crazy NOT to build it.


User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 21388 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 62):
At this point UA has no interest in CLE, so I think the city needs to get a carrier like AA,BA, or even DL to start some international service.

For right now, I'll take the angle that UA's interest in CLE is about control of a market with limited competition and in the top ten high airfare markets...

From another thread

http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/airfares...vel_price_index/html/table_10.html

It's plain to see that CLE is over a barrel in every way from airfares and service to O&D seepage to surrounding airports.

In the mean time, we can enjoy other threads involving fortress hubs and their a.netters supporters whining about aircraft they consider not big enough for certain international routes or asking why their isn't service to Timbuktoo


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 67, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 21316 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 65):
^the "Thomas" Administration---do you mean Jackson? if not, I'm missing something....

Yes, sorry ...   



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 21122 times:

Cleveland Port Control just put a RFQ on the street for the development of land on the harbor, north of Browns Stadium for some mixed use development on the lakefront. Building heights are limited, of course, to accommodate approaches to BKL. The two runways at Burke are immediately to the right of the area shown in the image (from the RFQ), below.




http://www.clevelandairport.com/Doin...and-Lakefront-Development-RFQ.aspx


User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9174 posts, RR: 18
Reply 69, posted (1 year 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 21013 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 68):

Looks exciting! And I'm kinda pissed... Continental should take a lesson from this, because they are planning utter $hit around Heinz Field!

6-10 story buildings would look really great around Browns Stadium, and it would be nice to see it come to fruition!
  



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8186 posts, RR: 24
Reply 70, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 20835 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 68):
Cleveland Port Control just put a RFQ on the street for the development of land on the harbor

It's about FREAKING time!! Cleveland's single best feature is its waterfront, and it took until 2013 to finally realize that a giant gravel and asphalt lot isn't the best use of that space?!



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9174 posts, RR: 18
Reply 71, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 20761 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 70):
It's about FREAKING time!! Cleveland's single best feature is its waterfront, and it took until 2013 to finally realize that a giant gravel and asphalt lot isn't the best use of that space?!

Seriously! My wife and I were there last year and thought the same thing...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 72, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 20739 times:

The lakefront has long been recognized as a valuable resource; however, there used to be a fixed 150-ton crane (the Buckeye Booster) on the west face of those docks. Built in the 60's, it was the biggest crane on Lakes Erie and Ontario and got the port a *lot* of St. Lawrence Seaway business. At that time the land was too valuable as wharfage to consider other uses. In 2009 the fixed crane was replaced by a crawler, enabling heavy lifts to move to more westerly docks.

So finally in 2010 the city started exploring alternative uses for the area surrounding Browns Stadium. Any developments, however, needed to be sequenced to follow the nearby and nearly complete Mall/Convention Center development. So, truthfully, the city never really had any options until relatively recently.

If these latest plans are a success, the building push to redevelop Burke Lakefront Airport will probably become irresistible.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 73, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 20588 times:

Correction: The 150-ton crane is still there, although I believe it was moved northward when Dock 28 and the western portion of the foreign trade zone were rebuilt. In the drawing greenair727 provided, the sliver of gray NW of the stadium, not marked for redevelopment, is its present location and there are no plans to move it. The abandonment of the north face of the quay wall by the Port Authority was what will permit the large scale redevelopment.

There will still be 'salties' tying up at Dock 28 for the foreseeable future.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 74, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 20482 times:

http://www.cleveland.com/business/in...hold_its.html#incart_river_default

UA announced they will hold their 2014 annual meeting in CLE. So maybe the hub is safe for another year at least. Their meeting is usually the second Tuesday of June - in this case June 10, 2014.

It might be nice if the meeting coincided with the inauguration of a CLE- ... No, I won't say it.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 20430 times:

^you mean

LHR/CDG/FRA/GRU/NRT/HKG/TLV/DXB?

just drop the "a" in front of "CLE-" in your post above.

[Edited 2013-06-22 02:45:33]

User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 20403 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown:

Correction: The 150-ton crane is still there, although I believe it was moved northward when Dock 28 and the western portion of the foreign trade zone were rebuilt. In the drawing greenair727 provided, the sliver of gray NW of the stadium, not marked for redevelopment, is its present location and there are no plans to move it. The abandonment of the north face of the quay wall by the Port Authority was what will permit the large scale redevelopment.

There will still be 'salties' tying up at Dock 28 for the foreseeable future.

Thanks for the details Massey. Below is a google earth screen shot of the area in question, Docks 28-32, with the crane on the left edge of the image. The two buildings currently shown are short-rise buildings--one was a trolley museum for a bit. Cleveland Browns Stadium can be seen at the bottom of the image.

I hope this project happens and is done well---it will be truly great for the city. Believe it or not (for those outside of CLE), right now, there is not a single lakefront restaurant--or even bar--located downtown.



User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 77, posted (1 year 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 20499 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 74):
UA announced they will hold their 2014 annual meeting in CLE. So maybe the hub is safe for another year at least. Their meeting is usually the second Tuesday of June - in this case June 10, 2014.

That is kind of a big deal for CLE. Certainly shows some commitment by UA to CLE. Might be interesting to see.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 74):
It might be nice if the meeting coincided with the inauguration of a CLE- ...

Perhaps they can have all the brass there for the first CLE>FRA flight.

I've been asking around on the lakefront development and there seems to be a high level of interest in the development community. Now, funding will be the next hurdle. If CLE or the Port Authority support that leg of the process, at least one of the two portions should make it to reality.

I always thought that the Hard Rock Hotel should go right next to the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame!


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 20258 times:

from Crain's Cleveland. This development is not directly about air service, but is relevant to Cleveland and air research/development (which could lead to more air service/traffic)....

Ohio Aerospace Institute partners with Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University

June 24, 2013


The Ohio Aerospace Institute, a nonprofit in Cleveland that supports the state's aerospace economy, and the Center for Aviation and Aerospace Leadership that is part of Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach, Fla., said they have formed a partnership that will allow them to collaborate on aerospace education, research and leadership training.

OAI said the two organizations will work together on aerospace workshops, seminars and conferences; aerospace research and development grants and projects; executive training programs, and STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) initiatives....."

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20130624/FREE/130629931

[Edited 2013-06-24 13:59:09]

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 79, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 20004 times:

Rumors about Silver (formerly Gulfstream) are circulating again. Apparently their EAS hub in Montana is in trouble. They lost two cities and that is making costs at the remaining ones excessive. The rumor is that the whole Montana operation will be discontinued.

That would leave their CLE hub with the only Beeches left in the system. Possibilities include upgrading the Beeches to Saabs, abandoning the routes, or moving them to PIT (which has hinted at the possibility of paying Silver some kind of spiff to get the business) using an even smaller aircraft. All these actions need government notice/approval, so it won't happen overnight.

It's not clear to me why the cities served would want to see the flights shift to PIT, which offers fewer connecting opportunities than CLE; from Silver's point of view, however, the same flights could be operated with fewer block hours from PIT than CLE, saving some money.

Apart from the routes, the Feds have ordered certain structural changes (cockpit doors) to the Beeches and apparently Silver doesn't think it's cost effective to make the change, which means bye-bye to the planes . So CLE's eleven daily Beeches seem to have a limited future no matter what Silver does about the routes.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 12
Reply 80, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 19986 times:

Here come the Diversions from DTW. Couple of 764s should be on your ramp now.

What about moving the flights from CLE to IAD? Wouldn't that make more sense?


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 81, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 19951 times:

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 80):
What about moving the flights from CLE to IAD? Wouldn't that make more sense?

Air Midwest (a Mesa subsid.) used to do that very thing. The EAS cities probably wouldn't mind; and since Silver now operates other flights at IAD, they might not mind either. IAD flying would mean more block hours except for Parkersburg - so IAD would be a higher cost to the EAS program - the Feds might mind.

The EAS program costs are becoming astronomical per passenger; the Montana cities that Silver lost were subsidized at $2000 per passenger. The whole program probably should be in trouble.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 82, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 19781 times:

http://billingsgazette.com/news/stat...8-39d2-5b27-8d16-889a9aa0829a.html

Silver formally announced the end of their Billings hub. I'm not sure what the comment about moving the aircraft to Cleveland may mean; there isn't any new CLE flying that I'm aware of.

The issue of the lack of a cockpit door grounding the Beeches is false.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 83, posted (1 year 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 19774 times:

On the inaugural CLE>TVC today looks like 4/50 seats available and the inaugural CLE>CHS shows full, both according to CO.com. So, looks like there is demand for these weekend specialty flights.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 81):
The EAS program costs are becoming astronomical per passenger; the Montana cities that Silver lost were subsidized at $2000 per passenger. The whole program probably should be in trouble.

We really need to get our government to start spending like they are broke and this program is an easy way to get the debt reduced a little bit.


User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1855 posts, RR: 5
Reply 84, posted (1 year 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 19734 times:

Why isnt anyone attending Airliners International Convention today??? its the last day of a three day show! Largest airline memorabilia show in the world!!! here is the link

http://www.ai2013cle.com/


User currently offlineswacle From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 372 posts, RR: 1
Reply 85, posted (1 year 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 19659 times:

Quoting crownvic (Reply 84):
Why isnt anyone attending Airliners International Convention today??? its the last day of a three day show! Largest airline memorabilia show in the world!!! here is the link

http://www.ai2013cle.com/

Visit table 407 if you do visit!



Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 86, posted (1 year 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 19624 times:

Looking at the post-July 4th schedules UA has posted, it appears they are continuing to "slim" the 7:30 AM departure bank. Lots of spokes are gone. Not good news for the local business commuters.


Edited to ask: About the DTW diversions: where does Delta park a couple of 764's?

[Edited 2013-06-29 10:25:16]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 87, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 19242 times:

Not sure what to make of this, but the rumors of new Silver flying in "the CLE system", as Silver calls it, persist. I don't think Silver would be doing this on their own initiative, so it has to be in cooperation with UA. Based on the usual exit scheduling for EAS routes, the Beeches won't be coming out of Montana before October, at the earliest. So new CLE flying probably couldn't appear before November.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (1 year 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 19131 times:

Probabyl DTW,TOL etc?


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 12
Reply 89, posted (1 year 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 19132 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 88):
Probabyl DTW,TOL etc?

From what I've been told in the past, Silver has aircraft and is ready to start some cities around the CLE system, but they have not been able to work out a profitable pro-rate from United. Maybe UA and 3M have worked out a profitable pro-rate?


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (1 year 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 19106 times:

FIS info. Perhaps this was known before, but I only came across it now. In the long term capital plan for CLE, the new FIS was placed in the 2016-2025 time period at a cost of $118m.

See Page 36 of 38 of this undated document. (Looks like, based on the text, around 2010).

User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (1 year 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 19084 times:

^MODERATOR---something happened to my post above--and I am unable to "EDIT" to fix it. Could you please delete it. I've reposted a modified post here:



FIS info. Perhaps this was known before, but I only came across it now. In the long term capital plan for CLE, the new FIS was placed in the 2016-2025 time period at a cost of $118m.

2025 is A LONG time away--UA could be long gone by then. I truly hope, if this is still the vision, that the FIS work would begin as close as possible to 2016--if not moved forward to today as a pressing need.

I tried to post a link, but was unable. The document is on DPC's website, page 36 of 38 on the update of the Master Plan.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 92, posted (1 year 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 19071 times:

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 89):
Maybe UA and 3M have worked out a profitable pro-rate?

I hope you're right. (Gotta confess: I love little airlines and Beeches.) Notice, though, PIT also has high hopes for luring Silver away.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 91):
FIS info. Perhaps this was known before, but I only came across it now. In the long term capital plan for CLE, the new FIS was placed in the 2016-2025 time period at a cost of $118m.

The plan was dated 2010 and the project was slated for 2016? As Federal budgeteers say, things in the fifth year of the plan never happen. They only are there to sop up money before some outsider tries to cut the budget. I hope I'm being way too cynical on this.

What I do like and is a cause for guarded optimism, is seeing UA put 70-seaters on CLE spoke routes and not just on routes that feed CLE O&D to other hubs.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 93, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 18878 times:

$118m for FIS is an absurd amount - must have included the Terminal D connector or something else. All they need to do is put the facility under C4(?) and a few escalators. Surely the US government would kick in for some of the cost.

New parking technology below. Used this at the Santa Monica mall last week - pretty cool. Rate goes down from $14 to $10 per day if you are there for 3+ days.

The hourly/daily garage, now officially the CLE Smart Parking Garage is fully open again—complete with a new smart parking system which helps visitors find an open parking spot with the guidance of green lights. And Dual pricing has been implemented for smarter payment— travelers who park for less than 72 hours will pay the short term rate and those who park longer than 72 hours will automatically receive the lower priced long term rate.

Parking improvements are also continuing around the airport—the new CLE Red Lot is now open on Park Road across the street from the former Economy Shuttle Parking ESP Lot, now known as the Blue Lot.

Thank you for your patience and flexibility as we continue to improve CLE for the betterment of the customer


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 18715 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown:

The plan was dated 2010 and the project was slated for 2016? As Federal budgeteers say, things in the fifth year of the plan never happen. They only are there to sop up money before some outsider tries to cut the budget. I hope I'm being way too cynical on this.

Yes. The plan had three phases. Phase 1 (2011-2015), Phase 2 (2016-2025), and Phase 3 (2026-2035)....

So at least its in the first year of a new phase.....

Quoting fun2fly:
$118m for FIS is an absurd amount - must have included the Terminal D connector or something else.

See the plan on DPC site. Its not connected to C but includes walkways from the gate--it looks like they are above Concourse C (similar to the way EWR separates pre-INS folks). at the facility at the south end of the current terminal building, curbside, it looks like Immigration on one level (upper) and customs on the lower the level. Space for secondary inspections, offices, too.


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 95, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18652 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 94):
See the plan on DPC site. Its not connected to C but includes walkways from the gate--it looks like they are above Concourse C (similar to the way EWR separates pre-INS folks). at the facility at the south end of the current terminal building, curbside, it looks like Immigration on one level (upper) and customs on the lower the level. Space for secondary inspections, offices, too.

Found the one w/the prices, thanks. For $118mm, sure looks like I'll never see it especially since it seems to be somewhat tied to the C expansion.


Looks like they have two years to finish the A ticket expansion, A security gates and the vertical expansion of the parking garages (don't think this was done). We'll see if that all happens. Hopefully, they can pay down the debt in the next 2.5 years so some of the 2016+ project can come to fruition.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 96, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18636 times:

.

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 95):
For $118mm, sure looks like I'll never see it especially since it seems to be somewhat tied to the C expansion.

Four baggage carousels? Dulles isn't *that* much bigger. I'd guess a more realistic proposal could come in a lot cheaper. They should let an airline take a whack at the plan. $118 million and 50,000+ sq. ft. is some consultant's pipe dream.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 97, posted (1 year 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 18382 times:

http://www.gosilver.com/about-silver...veland-network-as-it-exits-montana

The plot thickens: "The DOT’s recent announcement, coupled with our decision to focus Beech 1900 flying in Cleveland with its nearby maintenance base, made it a logical move to realign our remaining Beech 1900D assets to strengthen our United Express operations and Cleveland network,” said Pflieger.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (1 year 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 18126 times:

^ I would love to see those B1900's operating (under UA) some kind of shuttle service on BKL - LGA, though I know that that's not likely....

User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (1 year 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 18126 times:

Hmm.. What new flying could CLE get?..I would guess DTW would be one


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 100, posted (1 year 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 18132 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 99):
Hmm.. What new flying could CLE get?..I would guess DTW would be one

Charleston, WV? Huntington, WV? South Bend, IN (I think it's currently dormant)? Evansville, IN Toledo, OH? London, ON?


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (1 year 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18077 times:

^DTW makes sense--its pretty crazy that UA has no service on this route currently. Its probably the biggest city within 1000 miles of CLE with no UA service from CLE.

London, ONT is interesting. This town doesn't have pre-clearance, so pax would have to clear immigrations/customs in CLE before connecting onward.... but that's good---puts more pressure on building a new FIS!


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 102, posted (1 year 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 18078 times:

If you look at UA's current schedule, there are service gaps at some of the spokes: no morning flight to CMH, no evening flight to BUF, etc. I think we're only talking four Beeches at most, so I think UA will fill in some of those gaps first before starting (restarting) any new cities.

That said, DTW does make sense. A single Delta cancellation could fill a CLE-bound Beech with rerouted pax and that event has to occur a couple of times a day minimum.

One plus for Cleveland (not just the airport) is that Silver will probably have to make CLE a crew domicile. Currently the crews are based at the spoke cities, not CLE; so added service will probably mean new jobs.  



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (1 year 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 17891 times:

^a new crew domicile--that's great. Not counting the Montana aircraft, how big is Silver in Cleveland right now?

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 104, posted (1 year 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17842 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 103):
Not counting the Montana aircraft, how big is Silver in Cleveland right now?

They're fun sized.   Not big at all. They base their crews and aircraft in out-stations like Parkersburg, DuBois, etc. I believe only three aircraft are devoted to CLE's eleven weekday departures.

It will probably be a while before we see anything concrete from Silver. It usually takes at least 90 days to withdraw from EAS service and even then if the DoT doesn't get responsive bids for replacement service, they can 'hold in' the incumbent carrier until some new guy comes along. UA won't post any schedules until there is a fair certainty that Silver can perform them.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 105, posted (1 year 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 17651 times:

This was an interesting bit from enilria's weekly OAG update:

AA ORD-TOL SEP 0>4 OCT 0>4 NOV 0>4 DEC 0>4 JAN 0>4 FEB 0>4 MAR 0>4

Looks like AA is trying to grab that Toledo traffic (which probably mostly goes to DL from folks driving to DTW) instead of UA routing it through CLE (using B1900's for example). On Port Control's website showing all flight schedules out of CLE worldwide (with connections when needed), Toledo doesn't even appear on the list, though other places beginning with the letter "T" do, like Thunder Bay,Tegucigalpa, Tel Aviv, and Tampico.


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 106, posted (1 year 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 17607 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 104):
I believe only three aircraft are devoted to CLE's eleven weekday departures

So, if they move the 4 a/c here, we'd see 13-14 flights per day? Hey, I guess take the volume any way you can get it. every 100k passengers help.

How are the new routes doing at CLE? PDX? I see some days it is a 739. CHS, TVC? My SEA flight next week was bumped from a 73G to 738 so it seems as though UA is upgauging in some areas.


User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 12
Reply 107, posted (1 year 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 17573 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 105):
This was an interesting bit from enilria's weekly OAG update:

AA ORD-TOL SEP 0>4 OCT 0>4 NOV 0>4 DEC 0>4 JAN 0>4 FEB 0>4 MAR 0>4

Looks like AA is trying to grab that Toledo traffic (which probably mostly goes to DL from folks driving to DTW) instead of UA routing it through CLE (using B1900's for example).

This was a part of a filing error. They've been flying to TOL for a long time, the only network carrier to fly here. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to get TOL back to CLE as well as other smaller cities with the 1900s if they are moving them to CLE. My only reservation would be - is there enough seats on the other side of CLE if they add a bunch of lift out of smaller feed markets. My opinion is they are still quite lacking in that department which could limit the actual amount of passengers they will be able to feed. I'd like to see most trunk routes upgauged to mostly 70 seats and mainline if they were to really add a bunch of lift with the 1900s, or else it could really flop.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1888 posts, RR: 9
Reply 108, posted (1 year 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 17576 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 105):
This was an interesting bit from enilria's weekly OAG update:

AA ORD-TOL SEP 0>4 OCT 0>4 NOV 0>4 DEC 0>4 JAN 0>4 FEB 0>4 MAR 0>4

AA has actually been flying ORD-TOL for a number of years now, the above was just a reversal to fix the glitch that was filed last week which mistakenly cut their ORD-TOL flights.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 109, posted (1 year 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 17517 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 106):
So, if they move the 4 a/c here, we'd see 13-14 flights per day? Hey, I guess take the volume any way you can get it. every 100k passengers help.

100K pax annually (about the equivalent of a 738 round trip six days a week) isn't a lot, even against CLE's traffic base, but, as you say, every little bit helps. It would be 100K on the Beeches, most of whom would then board continuing flights; so you could think of it as 200K "through the turnstiles".

What is more important than the actual number is UA's apparent willingness to support the expansion. That would be a very positive sign - assuming it turns out to be true.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (1 year 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 17326 times:

Maybe HPN?...does a Beech have the range?


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8186 posts, RR: 24
Reply 111, posted (1 year 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 17242 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 110):

Maybe HPN?...does a Beech have the range?

Yep, it's almost exactly the same as MHT-YYZ, which Air Georgian used to fly every day with 1900's.

There's a good reason they dropped the route, though: nobody wants to spend 2 hours in a Beech. HPN should be an RJ, it's a heavily populated part of New York, for chrissakes, it ain't Plattsburgh.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 672 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (1 year 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17088 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 104):
They're fun sized.  

Having flown aboard Silver Airways- a reincarnation of the former Gulfstream Airways- I can say that a flight aboard one of their Saab 340B-Plus' from Tampa to Key West is akin to a tranquil It's A Small World Disney ride until your turboprop enters a healthy, Florida towering Cu down at 15,000 ft. At that point, at least for a few moments, the little Saab becomes more like your favorite roller coaster at Cedar Point. I enjoyed riding in the rear seats and folding my thankfully still slim 6' 4" frame into the fetal position. From the rear seat perch one can also be far enough behind the prop arc's throbbing decibels while still noting the engines whenever they go in and out of phase.

Silver Airways is proud of the fuel burn of those GE CT7s' too. Along the inside of the nacelles in large lettering is the proclamation that the Saab 340 uses "60% less fuel than a 70-seat regional jet." How much this fuel-efficient green publicity translates into passenger revenue is very much open to conjecture, especially when each near zero G lurch on my flight was met with a discernible look of unease from some passengers who's native tongue was either Portuguese or Spanish.

What routes from CLE is Silver Airways going to use this aircraft? A one hour flight would approach the limit of my fun.


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 16788 times:

On enilria's weekly OAG post, he posted a year over year comparison as follows:

Quote:
YOY Compare....
UA CLE-ALB MAR 3>4
UA CLE-AUS FEB 0>0.9 MAR 0>0.8 APR 0>0.9
UA CLE-BDL MAR 3>4
UA CLE-BTV MAR 0.7>1.5 APR 0.7>1.4
UA CLE-CLT FEB 3>4
UA CLE-FLL FEB 3>1.0 MAR 3>1.0 APR 3>1.0
UA CLE-MCO FEB 3>2 MAR 4>3 APR 4>3
UA CLE-MSY MAR 1.0>0.7 APR 1.0>0.7
UA CLE-PBI MAR 1.9>1.0
UA CLE-PHL MAR 4>5
UA CLE-PHX FEB 1.5>1.0 MAR 2>1.0
UA CLE-PIT FEB 1.5>3 MAR 1.7>3
UA CLE-RSW FEB 3>1.0 MAR 3>1.0 APR 3>1.0
UA CLE-TPA FEB 1.9>1.0 MAR 3>1.0 APR 3>1.0[/quote]

This YOY comparison is interesting.

I've divided the list above into two categories---business and leisure/retirement.

Business

UA CLE-ALB MAR 3>4
UA CLE-AUS FEB 0>0.9 MAR 0>0.8 APR 0>0.9
UA CLE-BDL MAR 3>4
UA CLE-BTV MAR 0.7>1.5 APR 0.7>1.4
UA CLE-CLT FEB 3>4
UA CLE-MSY MAR 1.0>0.7 APR 1.0>0.7
UA CLE-PHL MAR 4>5
UA CLE-PIT FEB 1.5>3 MAR 1.7>3

Leisure/Retirement

UA CLE-FLL FEB 3>1.0 MAR 3>1.0 APR 3>1.0
UA CLE-MCO FEB 3>2 MAR 4>3 APR 4>3
UA CLE-PHX FEB 1.5>1.0 MAR 2>1.0
UA CLE-PBI MAR 1.9>1.0
UA CLE-RSW FEB 3>1.0 MAR 3>1.0 APR 3>1.0
UA CLE-TPA FEB 1.9>1.0 MAR 3>1.0 APR 3>1.0

I know some are both, and that I may be off on one or another (e.g., maybe MSY)---but what is interesting is that all cities in the first group (business) gained frequencies and all in the second group lost flights. (I'm also not taking into accounting equipment type, which I know may increase capacity while reducing flights...) I know business flights are more profitable than leisure----is UA partially giving up the leisure market in CLE?


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 114, posted (12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 16652 times:

greenair, I'm guessing ... but the Florida March 2014 schedules seem to merely straight-line the January post-Christmas reductions. I suspect that UA has not loaded the winter Presidents' Day schedule increases yet. Winter plans usually firm up in late August. Last year, however, UA was very late posting them - they showed up piece meal, some flights even as late as December.

With the exception of publicly announced new flights, CO's and now UA's schedules have never been too accurate beyond six-months out. They stick in placeholders both regarding flights and generic aircraft (everything is a 738) just to have a collection bucket in the reservation system, and straight-line the rest to infinity. Inside six months, you can usually count on the schedules to be real.

Edit: enilria's list also shows under the other hubs SFO-CLE +1 and IAD-CLE -1 for March.

[Edited 2013-07-15 19:59:42]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 115, posted (12 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 16430 times:

Looking at the timetables for FIS construction and 737 MAX deliveries, I wonder if the 737-900 MAX is CLE's ticket to international service. Supposedly, with two aux. fuel tanks, the range would be as much as 4600 nm, which is long enough for just about any plausible CLE market outside of Asia or the Mideast. (CLE-FRA is 3598 nm)

While no airline currently says they'll routinely use a 737 MAX transatlantic, nobody expected the 757 to be used so extensively either. While narrow-bodies have pax appeal problems, the main downside with the 737 is that it is slightly slower than the 757 and much slower that widebody alternatives. (Mach .78 cruise for the 737 versus Mach .85 for 787). It would add approximately a half hour to CLE-LHR block times and a bit more to FRA.

So maybe a 200 pax 737-900 Max or the A321 NEO is in the international future for places like CLE, CVG, STL, etc.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (12 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 16374 times:

^Interesting. When does the MAX come on line? With that range, we could have CLE- HNL to the west; GRU (and MEX) to the south; and FRA/WAW/CDG/LHR to the east. We could even do DKR if there was demand.

Though people prefer a twin-aisle and those connecting anyway may choose EWR/IAD over CLE if the prices/times were equal, O&D CLE folks would benefit the most as though the flight may be a little slower, time (and headache and potential missed connections/lost bags) will be gained from not having to connect somewhere. A half-hour extra on CLE-LHR is certainly less than time to connect and re-board at another airport.

And once one of these routes become popular enough, they could be upgraded (if not begun originally) to a 787.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 117, posted (12 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 16352 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 116):
^Interesting. When does the MAX come on line?

Late 2017, commencement of service in 2018, if Boeing can keep to their schedule. It's a bit of a wait.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (12 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 16340 times:

Re 2017/18, you're right that it may dovetail nicely with the FIS in the master plan (assuming that stays on schedule as well)....

User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 119, posted (12 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 16306 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 115):
Looking at the timetables for FIS construction and 737 MAX deliveries, I wonder if the 737-900 MAX is CLE's ticket to international service.

Let's hope a CLE 757 TATL route occurs and then is phased into a 737 MAX. 2018 is a long time to wait!

Hope for good ops tomorrow on CLE>SEA.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 120, posted (12 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16231 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 119):
Let's hope a CLE 757 TATL route occurs and then is phased into a 737 MAX. 2018 is a long time to wait!

UA could force enough feed through CLE today to support a European flight if they wanted to - but what's their incentive, when they are awash in hubs with existing int'l service? The 737 idea would be supportable with CLE O&D, giving it a very good shot at stand-alone profitability. A 757 could come along in the meantime, I suppose, which would be great; but it's not nearly as cheap as a 737 to operate and is less likely with every increase in the price of oil.

WN regularly talks about more int'l flying; they have to be looking at the 737MAX for TATL flights. WN to Europe from BWI and EWR will take a lot of pax out of UA.

If UA doesn't do CLE, WN just might, along with BWI, EWR, BOS, PHL, PIT, CVG, STL, etc. The thought of an intercontinental aircraft in WN's fleet, must keep some of the legacy guys up nights.  

It's that 4 1/2 year wait that hurts.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 16040 times:

Quote:
A 757 could come along in the meantime, I suppose, which would be great; but it's not nearly as cheap as a 737 to operate and is less likely with every increase in the price of oil.

I realize that flight crew pay varies per airline, but is there a good source on operating costs (fuel, mx) by equipment type? This would be great info to have.

Quote:
If UA doesn't do CLE, WN just might...

That would be interesting and would certainly wake up UA (and LH and others).


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 122, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15998 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 121):
I realize that flight crew pay varies per airline, but is there a good source on operating costs (fuel, mx) by equipment type? This would be great info to have.

Amazing you should ask!  US Airline Aircraft Operating Cost Report (by LAXintl Jul 17 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Notice the caveats from other postrers. The numbers are good for a general comparison, but not a profit/loss calculation.

Edit: Aviation Week used to publish these numbers in an even finer breakdown regularly - until modern journalism decided nobody really cares about details. You can look this up in the DoT data base, but it's not exactly user-friendly. I believe Aviation Daily still prints it, but you'll need a good businerss library - AD is expensive.

[Edited 2013-07-19 08:53:52]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 15924 times:

^Good and interesting stuff! Thanks very much---just two days ago, too, I must have missed LAXIntl's posting.

User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3115 posts, RR: 4
Reply 124, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 15808 times:

Looks like you guys had some nice diversions last night; an Air Canada 773 from PEK, Condor 763 from FRA, Air Canada A-320s from SJO and MBJ. All bound for Toronto. BUF even had an AC 773, from LHR.


FLYi
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 15508 times:

Status on the new FAA tower at CLE:

"Construction of the 324-foot tall tower started in 2011 and current projections call for it to be completed in 2015."

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...new_air_traffic_control_tower.html


User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 15488 times:

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/ind...nited_airlines_improved_on-ti.html Its nice to see that the shareholders meeting is in CLE, but United adding flights since the merger isn't exactly correct.


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 127, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 15409 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 125):
completed in 2015."

Early 2015, I hope. It was originally scheduled for late 2014.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 128, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 15323 times:

Minor bit of good news. After the $50 million rise in 2011, CLE reduced its debt by $20 million in 2012, according to a report lately made public by the FAA. I don't know why CLE's report was filed months after other airports; it may have been just an FAA glitch in posting it in CARS.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15264 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 126):
Quoting cle757 (Reply 126):
http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/ind...nited_airlines_improved_on-ti.html Its nice to see that the shareholders meeting is in CLE, but United adding flights since the merger isn't exactly correct.

True, just another dose of positive persuation/distration the consumer and voter is fed based on symantics on a daily basis. After all, UA added a once a week flight to TVC for a few weeks this summer, substituted a daily CLE-PHX for CLE-PDX for a few weeks this summer. They even reinstated CLE-BNA and CLE-OKC after axing CLE-GRB and a few others like CVG, SBN...

But hey, the average person will believe anything they're told and the local community would believe that UA daily flight numbers are actually increasing overall and most certainly rally support...and maybe the numbers have gone up from some dart in the wall point in time compared to the present.

Half truths have always been part of positive publicity, as well as deflectors from negative publicity from every source it comes from, in a word...spin


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8186 posts, RR: 24
Reply 130, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 15225 times:

"And among United's eight hubs, Cleveland has posted the best on-time performance numbers over that period."

LOL no kidding. The other hubs are O'Hare, Dulles, Newark, LAX, and SFO. If you get one flight out on-time you're beating them for performance.

Hardly brag-worthy.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 15071 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 130):
"And among United's eight hubs, Cleveland has posted the best on-time performance numbers over that period."

LOL no kidding. The other hubs are O'Hare, Dulles, Newark, LAX, and SFO. If you get one flight out on-time you're beating them for performance.

Hardly brag-worthy.

Doesn't say much for travel quality or convenience for the passenger at our pet hubs


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 132, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 14982 times:

Quoting joeman (Reply 131):
Doesn't say much for travel quality or convenience for the passenger at our pet hubs

As a pax that just transited ORD F6B Gate, I can't believe they don't push every passenger they can via CLE Terminal D. Just nutty how uncustomer focused that area is - boarding, aweful carpet, no where to sit, walking on the tarmac, delays, etc. Sure makes you wonder why UA can't see that.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 128):
Minor bit of good news. After the $50 million rise in 2011, CLE reduced its debt by $20 million in 2012, according to a report lately made public by the FAA. I don't know why CLE's report was filed months after other airports; it may have been just an FAA glitch in posting it in CARS.

Not a lot of benefit at $20mm, but a $70mm swing from previous year is good. What is the debt at these days?

Still no 2013 1H data update on the CLE airport website...so random when they update the volumes.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 133, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 14903 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 132):
Not a lot of benefit at $20mm, but a $70mm swing from previous year is good. What is the debt at these days?

$856.7 million as of the end of 2012. Every $20 million helps.

Moody's rates the airport revenue bonds at Baaa1 and says:

"STRENGTHS
- Above average liquidity with approximately 600 days cash on hand
- Substantial origin and destination passenger base helps mitigate airline industry risks
- Continued strong level of air service by United Airlines
- Modest future capital needs

CHALLENGES
- Cost per enplanement is nearly twice the median for Moody's rated U.S. airports and expected to remain so
- Higher than average debt levels limit financial flexibility
- Long-term hub status remains a concern and could erode over time
- Airline revenues as a percent of total operating revenues continues to increase as non-airline revenues fail to materialize
- Potential new risks to further airline industry consolidation
- Meaningful unhedged variable rate debt of 16% of the total debt outstanding

Outlook

The stable outlook is based on Moody's expectation that enplanement declines levelize at current levels. The stable outlook also reflects expectation that Cleveland will achieve the necessary expense reductions and maintain liquidity at current levels."

That comment about "airline revs as a percent of total revs" says the Air Mall is *not* a huge success.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14855 times:

^As all the spots are rented out ( I think), it must mean that tenants pay a base rate + a percentage of sales or something.

But without more traffic, why would it be expected (by DPC) that sales would increase unless the stores themselves have very cool, compelling stuff. Increased traffic (both local and connecting) will increase store revenues. Also, what may help, is if connecting pax are advised that there are some shops at the end of C, so, instead of just hanging out somewhere along C or D to connect, they can shop. I don't think there is any signage on C or D stating 'visit the Airmall' or something like that.


User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 14796 times:

I guess I don't understand the big debt burden/prospects in comparison to airports that have completely re-worked both terminals and runways such as PIT & CVG. DEN? At a glance, CLE's improvements could be considered modest at best except for the newest runway. I'm assuming it's all about revenue.

The other 2 airports completed their construction during the heydays of being megahubs, lots of flights=revenues, CLE never came close to the same playing field, but their re-construction was also totally enormous in comparison.

Just seems we often read posts/threads on construction improvements at other airports with out an eyeblink, and CLE might someday in the future change up an FIS facility.


User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 136, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 14790 times:

Since UA seems to like seasonal flights maybe CLE could get some this winter! like COS,PUJ,POP,SAN,AUA to name a few


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 137, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 14686 times:

Hope Silver is doing alright. While Friday's CLE flights were apparently normal, they had some kind of operational meltdown in Atlanta - almost nothing (Saabs) operated to the six cities in that 'hub'.   


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 138, posted (11 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14608 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 133):
Outlook

The stable outlook is based on Moody's expectation that enplanement declines levelize at current levels. The stable outlook also reflects expectation that Cleveland will achieve the necessary expense reductions and maintain liquidity at current levels."
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 133):
- Cost per enplanement is nearly twice the median for Moody's rated U.S. airports and expected to remain so
- Higher than average debt levels limit financial flexibility

It seems like CLE has expenses and the facility in line (save FIS), so the only true way to lower airline operating cost and airport debt is to get more PAX through the complex paying fees and buying food leveraging the capital investment/overhead. Which kind of highlights the need to attract some new flights/carriers. I am sure that Ricky Smith is working this angle, but realistically has been unable to get hub / non hub / new carriers to add meaningful capacity. Sure UA added a few oddball flights and AA MIA and DL LGA last year, but none of them were truly impactful like, say: LHR on AA/UA, WN adding 6x daily new flights, or new LCC (JetBlue, Spirit, F9 more than 5 flights per week) etc. Such additions would help lower debt and also steal PAX back from PIT and CAK. With the Convention Center and all, any reason why Ricky Smith has not been able to get it done? Offering a few years of fee free flights to a carrier should entice someone you'd think.


User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 476 posts, RR: 1
Reply 139, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 14444 times:

fun2fly, I think CLE has the curse of being a marginal hub. It's too small to for UA to make meaningful investments, but it's big enough that competition is scared off, because everyone knows UA could easily hold down the fort. That's why Clevelanders pay ridiculous fares to major business centers, yet even being a hub, has far fewer seats to places like DCA, BOS, ATL, PHX, etc. than comparable or even smaller cities such as CMH or PIT.

It used to be Pittsburghers drove to CLE, now for sure the opposite is happening-- I do it all the time and save oodles of money. WN alone has dramatically less service than when they first opened the station in town for instance.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 140, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 14424 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 139):
WN alone has dramatically less service than when they first opened the station in town for instance.

Too true. This winter MDW is being cut to 5 on peak days, BWI to 3.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 141, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14231 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 139):
Clevelanders pay ridiculous fares to major business centers, yet even being a hub, has far fewer seats to places like DCA, BOS, ATL, PHX, etc. than comparable or even smaller cities such as CMH or PIT.

It used to be Pittsburghers drove to CLE, now for sure the opposite is happening-- I do it all the time and save oodles of money. WN alone has dramatically less service than when they first opened the station in town for instance.

I guess PIT and CAK aren't spending advertising money in the CLE market for nothing. Wouldn't surprise me to see YNG doing the same as G4 soon expands there.

I'm sure Ricky Smith's goal is to at least maintain current flight numbers to extract enough of the reasonable fees that are charged to apply to debt/operating expenses, since any meaningful expansion has been off the table for years. The WN example above and witness to alternative airport usage seem to make it a futile challenge. Courtesy UA.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 142, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 14022 times:

Ohio approved tax credits to Constant Aviation to add as many as 300 jobs and build a new hangar and offices at CLE. Constant had previously complained that the lack of land for development at CLE was a problem. I guess they figured something out, unless they're going to build at County, where Nextant (a sister company) is located.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 143, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 13958 times:

^I saw a Crain's article on that and I'm glad you clarified it because the way Crain's wrote it, it wasn't clear. It said "City of Cleveland" (but didn't specify between BKL or CLE). What made it confusing is that the article said Constant is currently at CLE and had indicated five years ago or so that it did not have room to grow there like it would at BKL or CGF.

Happy they have found a solution at CLE; otherwise it'd be great to see that BKL as well.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 144, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13896 times:

The State press release did not specify that the construction would be on the CLE property - I was assuming that based on a Constant press release of last January that first signaled their expansion intentions; it did mention that the new jobs would be in addition to the existing workforce of 170, which are at CLE

Constant said: “Our decision to relocate our landing gear facility from our Birmingham location to our Cleveland location was made in part to leverage our efficiencies of our larger accessory facility and the capability of future growth. We are also able to control our in-house NDT and machining capability which results in better pricing and quicker turn times for our customers. Since the expansion into the Beechjet gear in July of 2012, we have repaired over forty Beechjet landing gear units and invested additional capital to have necessary spares reducing our turn time to within two weeks. With the increasing age of the Beechjet fleet, we are seeing a spike in the request for gear overhaul. That demand has allowed us to purchase our fourth complete Beechjet landing gear set, which allows customers the option of exchanging their gear or using a loaner set while their gear goes through the overhaul process. The new 20,000 sq.ft. facility will allow us to expand into the service and repair of additional airframe landing gear and accessories. We have already begun the process of purchasing core gear units on our other niche aircraft. The continued development of this facility will allow us to provide a one-stop option for our customers,” said Stephen Maiden, President Constant Aviation.

Ohio now calls the 20,000 sf facility, mentioned in the press release, a 25,000 sf facility including headquarters offices. A facility of that size shouldn't be impossible to wedge into the area around their present location. OTOH, a landing gear overhaul facility wouldn't necessarily have to be adjacent to runways. It could be off-airport somewhere in the vicinity and there is a lot of space available "in the vicinity".



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 145, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13762 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 144):
Our decision to relocate our landing gear facility from our Birmingham location to our Cleveland location

You don't see that very often - a move from the South to the North!

Cleveland Lakefront Development Bids are due on Aug 15 - two weeks. Anyone heard anything? I hope a few credible bidders surface so the project can get moving.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 146, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13703 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 145):
You don't see that very often - a move from the South to the North!

I don't think they are closing the entire Birmingham MRO operation, just the landing gear portion. That makes sense since Nextant, a sister company, is rebuilding the Beechjets at a Cuyahoga County Airport facility.

Both Nextant and Constant, as well as a bunch of other charter, overhaul, and aviation sales related companies including Flight Options, are portfolio companies of Directional Aviation Capital and an associated investment fund, a nifty not-so-little operation in Richmond Heights. They keep a low profile.

http://www.directionalaviation.com/



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3115 posts, RR: 4
Reply 147, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 13603 times:

There's a pretty nice photo spread in the July issue of Airliner World featuring CLE's heyday. Pics include an AA 707, Northwest Orient DC-10, Continental A-300, Flying Tigers DC-8, and some Convairs


FLYi
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 148, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13466 times:

New winebar, Vino Volo--part of a chain--opens at CLE, near Gate B2. Here's their press release:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...ternational-airport-217981751.html


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 149, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13330 times:

UA has posted CLE Christmas schedules, including the customary adds to SAN, SEA, LAX, PHX, and Florida points. No surprises that I could find. This summer's CLE-PDX does not reappear in December.

The December Florida schedule is probably a good preview of the late-Feb/spring schedule, except that NAS comes back in the spring.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 150, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 13305 times:

I hope next summer they operate PDX and PHX, alot of customers had to go through ORD to get to PHX this summer


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 151, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 13301 times:

Did you notice UA cut ORD-PHX to two flights for the summer? Low yields and high temperatures ...  


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 152, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13070 times:

The lakefront development RFP responses are due Aug 15. I have not seen or heard a word about the project since its launch. Any news? Sure hope a few credible bids result so these phases can begin.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 148):
New winebar, Vino Volo--part of a chain--opens at CLE, near Gate B2.

This plus the new Club lounge rounds out concourse B nicely.

clevelandairport.com still is posting travel #'s from January (very random w/their updates). Anyone have any 1H2013 volumes?


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 153, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13014 times:

Interesting item in Crain's Cleveland's latest. Based on June 30, 2012 compared to 2013 numbers, UA added employees at CLE. 2,276 compared to 1,954 last year. That's a 16% increase. Not bad for a dying hub. This is probably a reflection of UA's statement that they cut too many and needed to rehire - still +16% is a nice pop.

In the same issue Crain's ran a piece about AirMall operations. While top line results have not met expectations because of overall traffic declines, sales per passenger have increased from $5.59 under HMSHost in 2008 to $7.31 by the end of 2011 under AirMall. AM got a rental break from the airport (lowered the $4.5 million minimum annual rent to $4.0 million), in recognition of AirMall's $8.0 million share of unforeseen infrastructure improvement costs, totalling $25 million.

Now all AirMall needs is a few more pax - which may be happening. For the year ending April 2013, CLE *domestic* pax totaled 8.47 million, for yeart ending April, 2012 it was 8.50 million. International pax, based on CLE interim data, are believed to have increased more than domestic declined.

[Edited 2013-08-06 11:23:23]

[Edited 2013-08-06 11:24:05]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 154, posted (11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 12825 times:

DL is putting 717's on CLE-ATL starting Oct 25th and ramping up to four a day during November. I always liked the looks of the 717 in AirTran livery.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 155, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12764 times:

^I once flew Midwest Express from MKE to CLE instead of CO even though I was trying to build status on CO because I wanted to test out the 717. Its interesting that now a 100-seater plane is the future of regional jets with Embraer and all, whereas just five years ago or so the 717 model of a 100-seater plane was deemed a failure and that there was no market for it. I remember reading someone from Boeing saying that had the 717 project not been advanced as far as it was when they bought MD, they would have scrapped the production of it.

Quote:
and ramping up to four a day during November.

Isn't DL already flying 6x with 3 A319, 2 MD88, and 1 CR9?


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 156, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12744 times:

Quote:
Interesting item in Crain's Cleveland's latest. Based on June 30, 2012 compared to 2013 numbers, UA added employees at CLE. 2,276 compared to 1,954 last year. That's a 16% increase. Not bad for a dying hub. This is probably a reflection of UA's statement that they cut too many and needed to rehire - still +16% is a nice pop.

That's great to hear.

Quote:
... For the year ending April 2013, CLE *domestic* pax totaled 8.47 million, for year ending April, 2012 it was 8.50 million. International pax, based on CLE interim data, are believed to have increased more than domestic declined.

Also good to hear! I wish DCP would publish [recent] pax numbers on their websites like other aviation authorities do....


User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 157, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 12718 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 153):
Interesting item in Crain's Cleveland's latest. Based on June 30, 2012 compared to 2013 numbers, UA added employees at CLE. 2,276 compared to 1,954 last year. That's a 16% increase. Not bad for a dying hub. This is probably a reflection of UA's statement that they cut too many and needed to rehire - still +16% is a nice pop.

I think this is a mistake, if anything we've lost a few employees.



Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 158, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 12697 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 155):

Isn't DL already flying 6x with 3 A319, 2 MD88, and 1 CR9?

Yes, frequencies stay the same, model of aircraft changes.

Quoting cle757 (Reply 157):
I think this is a mistake, if anything we've lost a few employees.

Sorry to hear that. Maybe one number counted Chelsea and the other didn't, something ?

New Silver rumor: no new flying. By "strengthen the CLE system" they meant assigning one or tow of the Montana a/c to CLE as spares.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 159, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 12692 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown:
and ramping up to four a day during November.
Quoting GreenAir727:
Isn't DL already flying 6x?
Quoting MasseyBrown:
Yes, frequencies stay the same, model of aircraft changes.

Ah! I thought you meant ramping up to "four frequencies"--i see you meant "four 717's". sorry for the confusion.

so even if one of those 717's is replacing the CR9, isn't this a reduction in capacity given 5 of the 6 current flights are on 319s or MD88s?

^Sorry to hear about the non-expansion of Silver in CLE--and about the UA numbers.


User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 12
Reply 160, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 12676 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 158):

New Silver rumor: no new flying. By "strengthen the CLE system" they meant assigning one or tow of the Montana a/c to CLE as spares.

I kind of wondered as I hadn't heard anything from my contacts after I asked the question about them moving B1900s to CLE.


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 161, posted (11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12319 times:

DOJ blocked the US-AA merger for now, but it will likely be 'resubmitted' with some modifications, such as US/AA giving more slots at DCA. Unless, it is like the AT&T - T-Mobile merger which actually did go away after the US gov't blocked it.In any event, what's the impact of this on CLE? Does AA & US compete on any routes out of CLE? Perhaps only ORD?

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5352 posts, RR: 7
Reply 162, posted (11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12254 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 161):
Does AA & US compete on any routes out of CLE?

Not on a non-stop basis; they fly only to their hubs from CLE.

This merger isn't necessarily dead, just stalled for now. If DoJ succeeds in killing it, however, things get more interesting. Either one of them would have to get interested in a merger with Jet Blue or Virgin America - maybe even Frontier, if AA would want to get into what is probably profitless Denver.

Short-term guess: you might see US restore CLE-PHX and AA, when they get more A319's, put one on the morning CLE-MIA.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 163,