Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1996 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 17382 times:

Two TAM Pilots were fired after allowing a passenger to seat in the Captain's left seat at cruise, with A/P engaged and the F/O "monitoring" the situation.

The incident was made public by the passenger, a Brazilian Singer who published pictures of himself in the left seat of the cockpit.

This people should read the report of Aeroflot 593...

More details here.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=46250b07&opt=0


Rgds.
G.


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8758 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 17331 times:

One lifetime ban from flying on TAM, coming up...    I guess that you really cannot fix stupid.


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6571 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 17297 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
This people should read the report of Aeroflot 593...

Idiots, idiots all around. I do hope the singer employs the pilots though, If I was part of that flight crew I would be really pissed.


User currently offlineEagleboy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1911 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 16960 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting aloges (Reply 1):
I guess that you really cannot fix stupid.

There were 3 serious mistakes here, in order of stupid........
1- Allowing a pax into the cockpit
2- Allowing a pax to sit in the left hand seat
3- Allowing that pax to take pics of themselves in the left hand seat


User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 16882 times:

Let's separate all bus drivers and car drivers from all passengers while the vehicles are in motion. Lest some crazy passenger endanger everyone on the road, not just the occupants of the subject vehicle. Let's also ban passenger carrying small aircraft that do not wall off the cockpit from any passengers. We should also ban any Taxis and motorcycles from carrying passengers unless the pilots and controls are totally separated from the passengers.

Humans can not be trusted in their judgement. We need RULES and REGULATIONS! Even when human judgement turns out to be accurate, anyone violating RULES should punished and terminated. How dare they use their discretion and judgement!


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1996 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 16750 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 4):
Humans can not be trusted in their judgement. We need RULES and REGULATIONS! Even when human judgement turns out to be accurate, anyone violating RULES should punished and terminated. How dare they use their discretion and judgement!

Humble advice, READ the report of Aeroflot 593 and then draw your conclusions about what can happen when some *COMMON SENSE RULES* are ignored. I hope after reading the report you avoid ridiculous comparisons between car/bus drivers and airline pilots.

Regards.
G.-



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinetonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 16414 times:

I have brought up so many times here the lack of professionalism of SOME Brazilian pilots. I have encountered this many times while flying with TAM, GOL, WebJet

User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2323 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16251 times:

I used to fly a lot in the cockpit and in the jumpseat prior to 9/11.... never they even sugested I sit on their seat.

I guess Its common sense, but since its the less common of all senses, mistakes like this will happen.

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6571 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16164 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 7):
I used to fly a lot in the cockpit and in the jumpseat prior to 9/11

I have many pilot friends, and me too, I´ve flown entire trips from gate to gate in the jumpseat. Never, ever, was I invited to seat in the crews´ seats.

The only time I did it, was on a DC-10-15 simulator at MEX. Boy did I have a good time  


User currently offlineskywaymanaz From United States of America, joined May 2012, 562 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15989 times:

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 3):
There were 3 serious mistakes here, in order of stupid........
1- Allowing a pax into the cockpit

Passengers in the cockpit may be up to pilot discretion in Brazil. Yes it is banned in the US, UK and probably a few other countries. Latin America hasn't had some of the problems that the US and UK have had and I know it is still allowed in many countries. Pretty sure they don't allow passengers to sit at a control station so I'd agree the rest on your list were pretty stupid.


User currently offlinepeterjohns From Germany, joined Jan 2009, 208 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15851 times:

I really find it sad and annoying what happened here. I especially feel sorry for the Co, who probably didn´t have much say before the "incident"- that being the singer sitting down- and subsequently the photos being taken.
I personally think losing their jobs is a very harsh desicion made by the company, probably only due to the media that jumped on the occasion. Was it due to an honest safety concern, or only due to the fact that it was a " celebrity"?
Would it have made the news if someone unknown would have put the photo in Facebook?

I feel for the crew ( not saying the action of the Capt. was a good move) because I used to travel a great deal in the jumpseats of various airlines. Not so much today anymore, due to now having family, and the restrictions of airlines, - but , as being an air traffic controller, I still get the occasional ride as an additional crew member, which, sometimes gives me a legal access to the FD.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 9):
Latin America hasn't had some of the problems that the US and UK have had

Which problems are you refering to? I don´t know of any problems that an interested Pax may have caused on the FD on any of my flights, other than firing up the love and admiration of flying and the aviation business in general.
That´s why we are all here, isn´t it? I bet that the reporter of the paper isn´t an A.netter....


User currently offlineskywaymanaz From United States of America, joined May 2012, 562 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15827 times:

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 10):
Which problems are you refering to?

Hijackings to Cuba from the US became common in the late 60's and early 70's. Banning cockpit visits was one of the preventive measures handed down by the FAA around that time. The UK used to allow it and BA encouraged cockpit visits on Concorde. After 9/11 though they banned the practice.


. . . No Billy can stay  Smile

[Edited 2013-05-15 23:44:21]

User currently offlinepeterjohns From Germany, joined Jan 2009, 208 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15781 times:

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 11):

I didn´t exactly mean Hijackers and other terrorists when I spoke of interested aviation enthusiasts wanting to visit the FD.
I believe they were never allowed on a plane...


User currently offlineAF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 665 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15732 times:

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 6):
I have brought up so many times here the lack of professionalism of SOME Brazilian pilots. I have encountered this many times while flying with TAM, GOL, WebJet

I would have to agree with this, having seen it in person - and having seen videos on Youtube with very sloppy checklists being done, to say the least (items being read out but forgotten, etc.)



Cheers
User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15481 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
what can happen when some *COMMON SENSE RULES* are ignored.

That accident happened, because the pilots were not familiar enough with the A310 systems. And why would it be ridiculous comparing it to Buses and Taxis and small planes? Either it is or it is not OK to place passengers with access to the controls of vehicles. An airliner is no different.

And let me tell you a true story:

When I was a kid, my brother and I went into the cockpit of 727. I got to sit on the lap of the Captain and my brother on the lap of the FO. After a lot of chit chat, the Captain told me to take the wheel and turned off the autopilot. He then asked me to maneuver the plane, up, down and bank. My brother then did the same. All this was 1 hour or so from Dallas at cruise altitude in a 727 full of passengers including my dad.

Apparently, in may case the crew were competent in the 727 to not get into us into danger or into the a similar problem encountered by the crew of Aeroflot 593. In my book, the Aeroflot 593 crash happened because the crew were not familiar enough with the A310 systems. They should have known what was causing the issue and how to get out of it or noticed when part of the autopilot was turned off shortly after the problems arose, IMHO. If that causes them to crash, they were not ready to fly it.

The children did not cause the accident anymore than frozen pitot tubes caused the AF447 crash.

The main reason why passengers are not allowed into the cockpit these days, is for terrorism reasons, not safety reasons that they'll bring down the plane inadvertently, anymore than bus riders will accidentally cause buses to crash.

[Edited 2013-05-16 00:17:07]

User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6571 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 15184 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 14):
And let me tell you a true story:

There used to be a time a few years ago in a.net when someone would share a story, an anecdote, and the usual suspects would immediately reply "I call BS on that" or some such disrespectful way to question the credibility of the anecdote and the poster. I hated that, specially when it happened to me. So I will try to be more diplomatic and just say that I have a hard time believing this:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 14):
When I was a kid, my brother and I went into the cockpit of 727. I got to sit on the lap of the Captain and my brother on the lap of the FO. After a lot of chit chat, the Captain told me to take the wheel and turned off the autopilot. He then asked me to maneuver the plane, up, down and bank. My brother then did the same. All this was 1 hour or so from Dallas at cruise altitude in a 727 full of passengers including my dad.

Growing up, I flew constantly on a Rockwell Sabreliner 40A, XA-RGS or XB, I don´t recall exactly. The pilots were employees of my father. Very professional and very nice men. And the most I ever got was to ride in the jumpseat which is essentially a small squared stool. Sitting in one of crew´s seats was never even brought up. If those pilots never let me or my brother do something similar to what you are recounting I highly dubt it would happen on a 727.

I also have never heard a story like yours. I´m not saying it´s BS, I´m just saying that if it really happened, those pilots must have been a reckless bunch. Two children sitting in the laps of both PF and PM on a 727 at cruise, and then maneuvering the thing? Hard to believe. Now, if you were a child connected to aviation by some relative back then, then I can understand.

[Edited 2013-05-16 00:40:58]

User currently offlineAF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 665 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14584 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 15):
So I will try to be more diplomatic and just say that I have a hard time believing this

When I was 10-12 or so (so... about 13 years ago) I flew on a Varig flight from Lisbon to Rio de Janeiro on a Boeing 767.

I asked to come to the cockpit, and was invited to do so.

When we started discussing airplanes and my passion for it, I asked for a bit more explanations about the autopilot.

The captain disconnected LNAV and switched to HDG SEL, explaining to me how the HDG SEL mode worked. He followed a course 10° to the left of the original, then 20° to the right, then reconnected LNAV.

This was pretty neat.

If this happened to me, and this was only 10-15 years ago, I have little trouble believing "tommytoyz". I do have some trouble doing so. But little.



Cheers
User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1906 posts, RR: 41
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13592 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

I personally don't really have an objection with letting people into the cockpit while in flight. I remember flying AMS LAX on a gorgeous KLM 742, when I was invited onto the flightdeck while overflying the USA. 3 months later 9/11 happened..

However that being said I think it's an incredibly stupid idea to have a passenger sitting in the pilot seats while in flight, and it's even more stupid to let him take pictures! I support the decision to fire the captain in this matter as its clear that he gave up his seat. I don't know about the role of the F/O in this matter, but let's assume that TAM knows best.

Martijn



Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 13266 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 4):
Let's separate all bus drivers and car drivers from all passengers while the vehicles are in motion.

Bus drivers are indeed separated from passengers in many cities, for example London. And even if not separated, rarely do you see a bus driver invite a passenger to sit on his seat and have full access to the controls! Even in a car, the front seat passenger does not have full access to the controls.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 14):
Either it is or it is not OK to place passengers with access to the controls of vehicles. An airliner is no different.

Exactly. Jump-seating and visit to the simple cockpit are different situations an not comparable, Here the pax was sitting in the pilot's seat while the aircraft was flying. A/P can be accidentally knocked off with disastrous consequences, as we have seen in the Aeroflot case.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2473 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12033 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 17):
I personally don't really have an objection with letting people into the cockpit while in flight. I remember flying AMS LAX on a gorgeous KLM 742, when I was invited onto the flightdeck while overflying the USA. 3 months later 9/11 happened..

I was let in to the cockpit of a SK A340-300 CPH-SEA overflying Canada back in 2008. It can still happen depending on the crew  


User currently offlinesandyb123 From UK - Scotland, joined Oct 2007, 1131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11780 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 19):
I was let in to the cockpit of a SK A340-300 CPH-SEA overflying Canada back in 2008. It can still happen depending on the crew  

I and one other were let into the cockpit of a A738 CPT-DUR (airline to remain nameless) in 2010. We were there from cruise into decent, landing, taxi and parking. I was amazed it was allowed in the first place but though the entire decent and arrival phase!?

It still happens! But the captains seat seems unacceptable.

Sandyb123



Member of the mile high club
User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2323 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11406 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 14):
And let me tell you a true story:

When I was a kid, my brother and I went into the cockpit of 727. I got to sit on the lap of the Captain and my brother on the lap of the FO. After a lot of chit chat, the Captain told me to take the wheel and turned off the autopilot. He then asked me to maneuver the plane, up, down and bank. My brother then did the same. All this was 1 hour or so from Dallas at cruise altitude in a 727 full of passengers including my dad.

We are living in a crazy world, full of crazy people, so what happens? we regulate everything for all those crazies out there.

So If this happened today, the Captain, F/O would be charged with pedophilia and your dad with abandonment. Crazy world !!! (then again Captain Oveour, did it in the movie LOL)

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlinerc135x From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11259 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
READ the report of Aeroflot 593 and then draw your conclusions about what can happen when some *COMMON SENSE RULES* are ignored.

Also consider the loss of EC-135N 61-0328 on 6 May 81. In that case BOTH pilot seats were occupied by wives of crew members. One of the wives ran full nose down trim which kicked off the autopilot forcing the airplane into an abrupt, steep dive. The PIC was in the jump seat but not strapped in so he hit the ceiling and was unable to intervene. Negative Gs tripped the generators off line so it was not possible to correct the trim electrically. In just a few seconds the airplane reached an unrecoverable attitude and crashed near Walkersville, MD, killing all 20+ on board.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13515 posts, RR: 100
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11226 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 3):
There were 3 serious mistakes here, in order of stupid........
1- Allowing a pax into the cockpit
2- Allowing a pax to sit in the left hand seat
3- Allowing that pax to take pics of themselves in the left hand seat

Three levels of stupid...

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 17):

I personally don't really have an objection with letting people into the cockpit while in flight.

Those aren't the rules. If individuals cannot follow some simple rules, they have no business being a pilot.

I'm not saying I 100% agree with the rule, but I do agree with enforcement of the rules. Either get the rules off the books or enforce them.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 18):
A/P can be accidentally knocked off with disastrous consequences, as we have seen in the Aeroflot case.

I'm still shaking my head as to what these individuals thought they could get away with. They volunteered to be the example...


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1996 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11097 times:

I think we need to draw a line between "innocent, harmless activities" ( jump-seating of fellow airline co-workers, or even some well known passengers in some particular occasions, or some children visiting the cockpit on the ground and having a Q and A with the pilots about instruments, screens and all you want ), and actually allowing a passenger in the captain's seat.

That being said, clean cockpits are IMHO the best choice ( there is a case of a co-worker attacking a flight crew in flight, happened in a FedEx flight and they were extremely lucky to survive).

Again, COMMON SENSE should be the Golden rule.

Rgds.
G.-



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
25 Post contains images Luftfahrer : 1- 2- 3- Done all of this before. Only difference? The aircraft was at the gate, not in the air. Too bad they couldn't have waited until blocking on;
26 HBGDS : I feel old. 1978: got to sit in the copilot's seat on SR 100 ZRH-JFK 1989: ditto on AF 002 JFK-CDG The assumption was of course that one was responsib
27 N867DA : A KLM 767 pilot did this on a 767 doing ATL-AMS in 1998. I see no problem in inviting children to the cockpit even today--especially kids under 10. I
28 YYZYYT : Actually, there is a separation between drivers and passengers in many cases. Even where bus drivers are not separated physically, they enforce a "be
29 Sinlock : And what happens when someone with non-terrorist intentions gets let into the flight deck? Lets play pretend. Mr. D.O. Guerrero (Airport 1970) can't
30 peterjohns : Well that´s hardly without bad intentions then, is it !! ??
31 EZEIZA : Quick question; why were the purser and FO fired as well? I can understand the captain being fired, but the others? I would assume it's the captain's
32 Reffado : My uncle is a captain at TAM, and while I have jumpseated a few times, not even once was the idea of me sitting in his seat considered. It's just not
33 Skisandy : I fly TAM and GOL a lot domestic in Brazil and must say that these are through and through professional organizations, on the same level as airlines i
34 atct : I was a "chauffeur", not a "bus driver". So take this for what its worth. Many times I would let one of my pax sit up front and sometimes even fly. A
35 mmedford : I concur, FO still had control of the airplane.
36 sankaps : Safety standards have changed significantly over time as we learn from how things can go wrong. Have you seen the decrease in fatality rates each dec
37 Kaiarahi : Have you checked the Brazilian rules? What do they provide?
38 Rara : You said it man.. This is a story that knows only losers. - The pilots wanted to make the singer's flight a bit special, probably had some fun with h
39 tommytoyz : I agree. We are becoming dehumanized and followers of regulations. In my case, the Captain was very near retirement and he thought is very interestin
40 sankaps : Many preventable accidents have happened when no one meant any harm. Margins for error and "harmless fun" are getting smaller and smaller with today'
41 EZEIZA : I still fail to understand why the first officer and the purser got fired. It's not their responsability, it's the captain that has the final call on
42 Post contains images Gonzalo : We don't know that. I have very clear lists of "DO" and "DON'T DO" in my contract. JJ pilots probably have some sort of list with things that are not
43 asctty : I can understand with the F/O got fired. The F/O is there to provide a second opinion to whatever the Captain decides to do with his aircraft, partic
44 tommytoyz : Are 150 passenger deaths more important than dead school children? Your basis on the number of dead is, to me, ridiculous. IMHO, it's hypocritical to
45 EZEIZA : Fair enough, but it has happened in the past, and I would assume it still happens, that some captains are rather tough (being polite here...) and imp
46 AR385 : Such captains have no place in modern cockpits and any respectable airline, like JJ for example, has CRM programs and training that would never allow
47 sankaps : You are really now making ridiculous arguments. Exceeding the speed limit in a car is similar to an overspeed landing, or exceeding approach speed, f
48 cuban8 : This is a major overreaction by the company which was probably influenced by all the media attention this event got. I agree that the crew made a mist
49 atct : I do not believe this is a ridiculous comparison. I was a glorified chauffeur. People that fly 737's and the like are glorified bus drivers. We have
50 sankaps : Sorry but you appear to be contradicting yourself. What kinds of incidents result in a slap on the wrist? Are you saying it is the norm for licenses
51 Polot : We know with hindsight that the pilots both did not have a complete understanding of the A310's systems. How do you know that the JJ pilots have a co
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Hijack Attempt Stopped By Pax On Chinese Plane posted Fri Jun 29 2012 06:50:22 by Gonzalo
290 Pax On A PIA 733? Are You Kidding Me posted Fri Apr 20 2012 07:18:59 by flaps30
Heated Discussion On Cockpit Almost Cause Crash posted Fri Apr 20 2012 03:53:21 by Gonzalo
Woman Arrested After Painting Nails On Flight posted Wed Mar 7 2012 17:41:06 by flyiguy
Collecting Personal Data From Pax On Board. posted Tue Dec 20 2011 00:22:58 by lmml 14/32
531 Pax On A 747 300? posted Wed Nov 16 2011 11:00:03 by Gonzalo
Man Arrested After Punching Boy On Flight posted Wed Dec 29 2010 16:44:57 by zalemam
Kicked Off DL After Smelling Alcohol On Pilot posted Wed Aug 4 2010 12:59:37 by CALPSAFltSkeds
A320 In Trouble After Landing In FRA Yesterday posted Thu Mar 11 2010 00:19:02 by sydaircargo
Pilots Or Slaves? 'Flying Cheap' On PBS posted Tue Feb 2 2010 10:26:47 by 797