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DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3  
User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 774 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8294 times:

It's a few days before the much hyped T4B opens. We all know it will not be an architectural marvel. And we all know it will be a big improvement over the current T2/3 terminals.

However to what degree will it be a world class facility?

My sense is it will be better than the current state and will for the most part get the job done, but that most people expecting leading edge in airport terminal design, amenities, and wow factor will be a bit disappointed.

Will it even be the best terminal at JFK?

Thoughts?

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2996 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8142 times:

I guess we'll know soon enough, but I think (and hope) that it will at least be in the same league as T8 and T5, which I would argue are the current "state of the art" at JFK, in different ways. Neither has much of a "wow factor" compared to other airports around the world, but they both work quite well for what they do. T8 is much more striking and impressive in scale, but T5 was very thoughtfully laid out and has great food and shopping despite being somewhat bare-bones. My prediction is that T4 will be somewhere in between. The check-in area should look more like T8 architecturally (though the original sense of space as you descend towards the gates has been compromised by the much-needed relocation of the TSA checkpoint) and I'm excited about some of the concessions, e.g. Shake Shack and Blue Smoke. My concern is that the B concourse may feel a bit narrow and crowded at peak times, although I understand the extension is a bit wider than the original part, which should help.


Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineezra From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7657 times:

Funny, I flew in and out of T4 last week and purposefully allowed myself plenty of time for a lookabout on both legs of the journey. The DL portion of the check-in area is looking pretty sharp, although they're still putting the finishing touches on it. DL has also spruced up the existing gates on the T4B concourse with new seating and carpeting, and I'm excited for the reveal of the new construction. I hope that the ceiling height in the new portion is higher than the existing portion; the lower ceilings contribute more to the claustrophobic feel along the existing concourses than does the relatively narrow width. (The existing concourse doesn't feel much narrower than the A or B concourse in ATL, in my opinion. But the ceilings are low!) Lots of new shops and restaurants are going into the mall below the new, consolidated security area. All in all, much improvement is visible all around, although the building doesn't have the same integrated feel as T5 or T8 -- it's clear that it's a retrofit.

It's also abundantly clear that the building has been used hard since its opening and not always maintained in tip-top shape -- the arrivals hall is dingy, cracked floor tiles abound throughout the building, the non-DL check-in areas are in rough shape. The wire mesh used to cordon off the new security area is an unfortunate necessity. The terminal is no architectural masterpiece and the spatial experience is underwhelming and not particularly inspiring, but it's a major, major improvement over T3, which is what really matters. Hopefully DL will continue to spruce up the cosmetics as they get their mitts on more and more of the terminal...

My personal take is that T5 and T8 are on the top rung, followed by T1 and T4 on the second rung, then T7, and T2 at the bottom. (Leaving out the soon-to-be-dead T3.)


User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3073 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7622 times:
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I'm hoping this new temrinal will live up to the hype. I flew out of T3 in January and I have to say it wasn't horrible, but it felt like a few temrinals had been linked together like extensions on a house.


\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7596 times:

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 1):
"wow factor"

What terminals around the world have a WOW FACTOR?



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7584 times:

I think DL is taking a page out of the B6 playbook with T5. Delta is even calling it T4.

Airy, glass, spacious, lots of amenities.

People rave over T5...look around...not much in terms of architecture.

What DL did is very smart...the terminal was already built. They did minimal expansion to the head house, redid the interior and stapled on 9 gates while taking over the rest of the concourse.

Much better than the AA palace in terms of economics.

So will it be the nicest terminal at JFK? No.

AAs will be nicer.

B6s will be nicer simply because it is solely controlled by B6 where T4 will still be run by JFKIAT and have a whole bunch of airlines in it.

Will it be better than what they have?

Yes and no. Yes for obvious reasons. No because the connections between T2 and T4 are gonna stink. A short walkway will now be replaced by a bus ride.

Will T4 international be nicer than what CO/UA have at Terminal C?

Yes. Only because it will be brand new.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7545 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 4):
What terminals around the world have a WOW FACTOR?

LHR Terminal 5
CDG Terminal 2F
DXB Terminal 3
PEK Terminal 3
PVG
BKK
ICN
HKG

Those are the ones that come most readily to mind.

The closest thing the US has to a world-class terminal would be DTW's McNamara terminal. Others may be functional, but you tend not to see great architecture.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8344 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7527 times:
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Its just an expansion of a 10 year old terminal, its a big Delta deal. Anything is better then the "worldport", T4 makes things better for DL but about the same for all the other airlines at T4.

User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1061 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7445 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 5):
Much better than the AA palace in terms of economics.

I am not so sure about that. For what Schiphol, the PA, and Delta are spending on the expansion of T4, AA got much more.

Remember though Delta committed only $15 million or so of its own money, it is nonetheless covering the total cost (plus profit) with the rent it pays Schiphol.

There was no such middleman in the AA transaction. Plus, it has been almost 7 years. The debt on T8 is most likely lower now than it is on T4, which already had $300 million or so in debt outstanding even before Phase 1 of the expansion. And, there is still a Phase 2 to fund.

As to the OP's question, I wonder if in 20 years or so one of the parties to this transaction will recognize how flawed the layout of the extended pier is and tear both piers down to build a concourse parallel to the headhouse.


User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 774 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7276 times:

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 8):
I wonder if in 20 years or so one of the parties to this transaction will recognize how flawed the layout of the extended pier is and tear both piers down to build a concourse parallel to the headhouse.

Please say more.

Like this?

Big version: Width: 720 Height: 540 File size: 153kb


[Edited 2013-05-20 18:56:23]

User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1723 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7250 times:
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Unless the new extension is remarkably better than the current concourse at Terminal 4, I'd say this new operation is just better than T2/T3. I've never found anything all that remarkable about Terminal 4. I was just there a few weeks ago and found plenty of wear and tear.

User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7107 times:

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 8):

As to the OP's question, I wonder if in 20 years or so one of the parties to this transaction will recognize how flawed the layout of the extended pier is and tear both piers down to build a concourse parallel to the headhouse.

The original IAB had a concourse like that. The reason why this terminal has concourses the other way is to accomodate the operation of the old IAB while the IAT was under construction. That was only in 1999.

There's always history behind current circumstances


User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 754 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7058 times:

Are other airlines being shifted around at all with DL moving into T4? It sounds like DL will have 9 new gates and 7 renovated ones. Are these all exclusively DL's, or will they be sharing? If so, they will be losing gates overall, at least until further phases are complete.

I guess they will probably at least share their gates with alliance and JV partners KL, UX, CI, and soon VS.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinegaystudpilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 453 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6980 times:

From a passenger experience and operations perspective, T4B will be better. Compared to T2/3, passengers will have a clean, "modern" terminal with a roof that doesn't leak.

Will it blow your socks off? Doubt it. Narrow concourse, low ceilings. And, just read the DL Flyertalk thread re changes to the Sky Club alcohol policy -- that "flagship" Sky Club in T4, the one with the fancy deck, will be serving Bud Light and Gordon's Gin for free and charging 7USD for a measured shot of Baileys in your morning coffee.

To the vast majority of passengers it will be much better. As far as premium travelers, even within T4, it will be interesting to see where they go in a year or so... for example, JFK-LHR, DL BusinessElite or VS Upper Class.

[Edited 2013-05-20 19:49:02]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6850 times:

Quoting gaystudpilot (Reply 13):
To the vast majority of passengers it will be much better.

So long as they're not connecting between T2 and T4. Then the extra hassle and time spent might well cancel out the benefits of T4.

But if you can stay within T4, then it will be much better.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11563 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6826 times:

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 8):
I am not so sure about that. For what Schiphol, the PA, and Delta are spending on the expansion of T4, AA got much more.

Remember though Delta committed only $15 million or so of its own money, it is nonetheless covering the total cost (plus profit) with the rent it pays Schiphol.

There was no such middleman in the AA transaction. Plus, it has been almost 7 years. The debt on T8 is most likely lower now than it is on T4, which already had $300 million or so in debt outstanding even before Phase 1 of the expansion. And, there is still a Phase 2 to fund.

And the T8 bonds are, if I'm not mistaken, facility revenue bonds that are backed by the financing of the government agency the PA, and at fairly low interest rates. Not to mention - much of the criticism of T8's economics has long been that it's a white elephant. But I do not think that is really the case any longer. Sure, T8 is still underutilized (in terms of turns per day per gate), but that's true of most terminals at JFK which are used most intensively at peak times. But with more AA traffic moving through the terminal from more slots and more mainline over the last several years, plus the addition in that same period of TAM, LAN, Qatar, etc., T8 these days is a fairly well-used place. That surely helps its economics.

[Edited 2013-05-20 21:01:52]

User currently offlinestaralliance85 From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6626 times:

Back in the early stages of AA's CH11 days. Delta should of made AA an offer they couldn't refuse for T8. Delta Terminal T4B is No terminal 8, terminal 5 or EWR Terminal C because they do not dominate it to themselves. At T4 Delta has to share the space with other Star Alliance airlines. Terminal 8 is almost a Oneworld powerhouse, T5 is dedicated to Jetblue.
UA has had a very strong hub at EWR Terminal C for over 25 years.



brad Fitzpatrick
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4009 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6508 times:
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[quote=staralliance85,reply=16]Back in the early stages of AA's CH11 days. Delta should of made AA an offer they couldn't refuse for T8. Delta Terminal T4B is No terminal 8, terminal 5 or EWR Terminal C because they do not dominate it to themselves. At T4 Delta has to share the space with other Star Alliance airlines. Terminal 8 is almost a Oneworld powerhouse, T5 is dedicated to Jetblue.
UA has had a very strong hub at EWR Terminal C for over 25 years.[/quote

What Star carriers are going to be using T4B?

How many more OW carriers may move into T8?


User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3625 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6509 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 10):
I've never found anything all that remarkable about Terminal 4. I was just there a few weeks ago and found plenty of wear and tear.

There was wear and tear on it as soon as it opened! I remember visiting literally a week after it opened and already finding water damage in the baggage claim area. There was a leak somewhere, which had damaged the roof and caused cosmetic damage to a wall, one column and had pooled on the floor, causing a stain. I didn't see any evidence of this being cleaned up. I can't say it was still like that when I flew in there last month, but it didn't look like a brand new terminal, that's for sure.

This is the way things are in NYC, unfortunately, although I feel like T5 has weathered its passengers a bit better, and it's no less heavily trafficked. I was just coming back after flying through NRT and HND (both T2 and the Intl. Terminal) and those airports are immaculate by comparison, and they sure don't get fewer passengers than any of JFK's terminals.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5421 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 18):
This is the way things are in NYC, unfortunately, although I feel like T5 has weathered its passengers a bit better, and it's no less heavily trafficked. I was just coming back after flying through NRT and HND (both T2 and the Intl. Terminal) and those airports are immaculate by comparison, and they sure don't get fewer passengers than any of JFK's terminals.

Stop crapping on the NY airports already a.net. It gets very very old.

T1, T4, T5, T8 and even T7 are world class facilities.

Stop making them sound like Detroit Metro 10 years ago.

JFK is in better shape now than it has been since the 60s.

Also, keep in mind that T1 and T4 opened when JFK handled 35 million passengers a year. It now handles 50 million passenegrs per year.

Things are crowded, things have been updated to handle that and many people dont necessarily like it:

The T1 food court was ripped up and the sculpture taken away to make a bigger food court.

The T4 headhouse was cut in half by a central security checkpoint.


User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3268 posts, RR: 35
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5175 times:

There are sure a lot of opinions here from people who haven't even been in the "new" T4 yet.

While I agree that T4 has generally looked far shabbier than it should for its age, I expect that to change dramatically now. with the exception of the current dilapidated JFK facility, Delta's hubs are very well-maintained. Being the primary tenant in the facility will give Delta a significant amount of input into the maintenance and cleanliness of the facility. Expect its spaces to be pretty pristine.

T4 is not going to be a Taj Mahal facility. But it will it will be more than nice enough. There will certainly be no NYC gateway facility that is superior enough to drive a revenue premium. That is definitely NOT the case with the current situation.

The other comment I'd make is that Delta is doing its best to emphasize the amenities for SkyPriority passengers. The dedicated Check-In lounge and security checkpoint, along with a mega-SkyClub are going to be very welcome additions.


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1587 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4952 times:

ANYTHING will be better than the old T3. I will never forget the birds roosting inside, the dangling wiring, the buckets catching leaks, the carpeting that had been worn to shreds. Oh, and the crowds. Many third world terminals were in better shape than that sorry facility.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 4):
What terminals around the world have a WOW FACTOR?

SAN's new terminal is almost complete and is quite impressive. The portion already open is stylish, with high ceilings, large windows and attractive finishes. Most airports put a lot of design attention into the departures area of the airport and leave the arrivals hall as an after thought (low ceilings, blank walls, no windows, etc.) What is nice about San Diego's new terminal is that the arrivals hall is as attractive as the rest of the facility, with soaring ceilings, glass walls, and art. I think a model of the Lindbergh's plane hangs over the luggage carousels.

Now if SAN would deal with the astonishingly outdated older terminal. Transiting through that facility is a nightmare, particularly if your flight is delayed. My understanding is that SAN has no intention of replacing that facility at present.


User currently offlineAwysBSB From Brazil, joined Sep 2005, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4684 times:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 20):
T4 is not going to be a Taj Mahal facility. But it will it will be more than nice enough. There will certainly be no NYC gateway facility that is superior enough to drive a revenue premium. That is definitely NOT the case with the current situation.

The other comment I'd make is that Delta is doing its best to emphasize the amenities for SkyPriority passengers. The dedicated Check-In lounge and security checkpoint, along with a mega-SkyClub are going to be very welcome additions.

In other words, that does not bring the advantage Diamond Medallion passengers deserve and is quite inattentive to Umbrella Terminal, which could become dedicated to highest value passengers of Sky Team as lastly discussed.

[Edited 2013-05-21 08:01:35]

User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1061 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4344 times:

Quoting questions (Reply 9):
Unless the new extension is remarkably better than the current concourse at Terminal 4, I'd say this new operation is just better than T2/T3. I've never found anything all that remarkable about Terminal 4. I was just there a few weeks ago and found plenty of wear and tear.

All terminals have wear and tear; the important this is whether or not they have "good bones." Look at T8, for example. It is well known that after it ran into financial trouble AA did not build one half of the headhouse/main concourse and skimped on the interior finishes, but the structure as a whole has an ideal layout that will serve AA well should it decide (in the near future) to go back and redress the interior and complete the building. (When AA does that, I hope it lifts the low ceiling at the top of the escalators as one rises out of the tunnel. That is my biggest pet peeve.)

On the other hand, T4's issues are more than wear and tear. Expanding the B pier was not the best solution. It may have been the most convenient and economical, but it is not the best use of the available space and it will result in long walks for passengers to and from baggage claim/customs.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
The original IAB had a concourse like that. The reason why this terminal has concourses the other way is to accomodate the operation of the old IAB while the IAT was under construction. That was only in 1999.

There's always history behind current circumstances

Whatever the circumstances, it was shortsighted. Look at Reply 9. How many more gates could have been built in the same space? Even if Delta did not need all those gates now, that layout would have given them room for expansion. Moreover, the customer experience would have been better in a terminal with that layout.


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4179 times:

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 23):
Whatever the circumstances, it was shortsighted. Look at Reply 9. How many more gates could have been built in the same space? Even if Delta did not need all those gates now, that layout would have given them room for expansion. Moreover, the customer experience would have been better in a terminal with that layout.

Easy for you to say shortsighted.

They kept a 16 gate terminal running while they built a new 16 gate terminal over it.

That was a monumental feat and there were several articles about it.

Hardly short-sighted especially if you saw the garbage they replaced.


25 jetlanta : What on Earth are you talking about? The Diamond Medallions don't get a separate plane. I happen to be a DM. If you think that I have any desire to c
26 LDVAviation : And, how many gates did AA/MIA keep working, while they built a 45-gate linear concourse in place of piers A, B, C, & D? Now, that was monumental
27 csavel : a couple of thoughts. 1. I wouldn't be surprised if a veeeery long series of moving walkways is somehow built between t2 and t4. Yeah difficult, but c
28 Post contains links AwysBSB : According to what is discussed in another thread about it, the umbrella building has enough space to work like any premium terminal. Its rotunda even
29 Mir : It wouldn't be difficult at all, and it could be done relatively quickly once the T3 rotunda was out of the way. It's just a matter of cost. -Mir
30 spacecadet : Sorry, no. I will continue to provide my opinions, despite your commands otherwise. You are not the boss of anybody here. New York's airports are not
31 goldenstate : This is entertaining. You obviously do not understand the concept of time value of money.
32 mesaflyguy : I agree that you can make youropinions known, but you make it sound like New York is that only city i the world with aging teminals. There are worse
33 jfklganyc : Im not commanding anything. You have your opinion. I think it is wrong...that's my opinion. 9 runways 3 new control towers 14 different terminals 2 a
34 Post contains images Revelation : I think the key disagreement is over what "world class" means. One can say that McDonald's is a world class restaurant, some would agree, some would
35 FlyASAGuy2005 : That is a stretch. The NYC airport system as it is set up is a complete mess.
36 LDVAviation : Here is what is amusing. That wasn't the point at all. LOL. You obviously do not understand the concept of a timely investment. Here's a history less
37 dartland : I think the new T4B will be great for DL and it's passengers. And while not architecturally different, certainly provide a great airport experience du
38 BN747 : What's being missed here is the 'expectations of New York'... It is expected of anything NYC is to be exceptional and yes, a WOW factor. Thus... ...w
39 jfklganyc : This post really hits Deltas problem right on the head. For half their passengers...nothing has changed. For connectors, it will get worse!
40 cokepopper : Do you really think 1/2 of the customers Delta serves out of JFK will really experience T-2? I really don't know but asking. I would think the Majorit
41 goldenstate : I don't see how you can judge someone else's understanding of a topic you know nothing about, so you'll have to save the faux erudition for another a
42 Mir : I'd say the 1/2 number is pretty accurate. Not only do you have all the RJ passengers using T2, but you'll have some domestic mainline there as well.
43 jfklganyc : Delta was never building their own terminal. Delta wanted to be in T4. Schipol USA wanted them in T4. The PANYNJ wanted them in T4. This has been goin
44 FlyASAGuy2005 : They put expanding T4 West on hold as early as 2000 so it was pre-9/11.
45 Post contains images questions : I'm still curious as to "current problem issues." What are they?
46 BN747 : Are you not reading the posts in this thread? Even your design would have been more advanced than the current 'long fingered pier' designs from the 1
47 boswashsprstar : I actually think the new terminal at DCA is quite nice. Unfortunately it gets very overcrowded in the post-security sections, and the lack of airside
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