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Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS  
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 884 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 22745 times:

Surprising news from James Hogan CEO of ETIHAD on 21 May 2013 at a joint KL/EY news conference in AMS.

Apparently, he stated that advance plans exist for Jet Airways to move its scissor hub from BRU to AMS, to build on AMS connectivity.

It appears that the new shareholder has a big say in decisions in India.

He also revealed that EY wishes to enter a cooperation with DL and that the new EY/KL cooperation has resulted in tens of thousands booking to the various codeshare destinations. But EY does not wish to join SKYTEAM.

regretfully text in Dutch only:

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nl-NL..._Airways_van_Brussel_naar_Schiphol

It does state in small print .....plans are still to be submitted to the Jet Airways Board. So James Hogan must be confident to make it public.

[Edited 2013-05-21 08:40:42]

85 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2183 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 22735 times:

Wowowowwowowowowowowwow. This is pretty big. Then again, it also makes sense. BRU is basically a dead-end for Jet Airways in terms of value-added for a scissor hub.

Quoting factsonly (Thread starter):
He also revealed that EY wishes to enter a cooperation with DL and that the new EY/KL cooperation has resulted in tens of thousands booking to the various codeshare destinations. But EY does not wish to join SKYTEAM.

Totally makes sense. Etihad has the upper hand here. They can cozy up with their preferred picks within SkyTeam and basically have DL/AF/KL eat out of their hands while also maintaining a "hands-off, noncommittal" approach to the rest of SkyTeam with minimal backlash.

Aren't alliance shifts fun to watch!?



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2192 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 22641 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 1):
Totally makes sense. Etihad has the upper hand here. They can cozy up with their preferred picks within SkyTeam and basically have DL/AF/KL eat out of their hands while also maintaining a "hands-off, noncommittal" approach to the rest of SkyTeam with minimal backlash.

Aren't alliance shifts fun to watch!?

The next step is EY stopping their partnership with AA, AB potentially leaving oneworld sooner than later.

After that, potentially (weirder things have happened), EK continues to partner with other oneworld carriers, including AA. Long term, one could potentially end up with EY in skyteam and EK/QR in oneworld. It would IMHO be the correct retribution to Star and LH for all their bashing of Gulf carriers.


User currently offlineAlsatian From France, joined May 2005, 422 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 22519 times:

AMS is absolutely logical as it is the #1 airport to connect with all the UK primary and secondary cities. That is the key.


Ok I am French but I am not on strike
User currently offlineFlyingHollander From Netherlands, joined Jul 2011, 217 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 22362 times:

Finally, I've been waiting for this for ages! AMS really needs to increase its market share in India. Currently KL serves DEL and DL serves BOM, that's it. Even though the other routes to BRU were axed I'm confident that these will come back to AMS if the move materializes.


If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 22206 times:

Any update on EY and JAT Airways courtship?

User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2183 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 22020 times:

Quoting runway23 (Reply 2):
The next step is EY stopping their partnership with AA, AB potentially leaving oneworld sooner than later.

It really could go either way. Bear in mind that Etihad is juggling several carriers and doesn't necessarily mandate universal policy across the board. airberlin has definitely reported noticeable gains from its codeshare relationships with oneworld in terms of growth in passenger numbers, which is worth waiting out to see if that in turn delivers stronger YoY revenue growth (which it badly needs).



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 21690 times:

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 4):
Finally, I've been waiting for this for ages! AMS really needs to increase its market share in India. Currently KL serves DEL and DL serves BOM, that's it. Even though the other routes to BRU were axed I'm confident that these will come back to AMS if the move materializes.

Agreed, I guess KLM had their reasons for pulling HYD, but I would have used the flight quite a few times in the past few years, had it existed. I find none of the alternatives particularly appealing. The DL/9W combi requires a night in hotel in Mumbai. The timings of the EK return flight are simply awful. I don't like the idea of backtracking on BA through LHR. Most of the times I thus flew a combi of KL/6E. But then again you face the transfer between terminals in Delhi in a rickety old city bus with malfunctioning doors.....

Anyway, please bring a nonstop AMS-HYD back!!!!!!


User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 620 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 21465 times:

Quoting runway23 (Reply 2):
Long term, one could potentially end up with EY in skyteam
EY's CEO keeps repeating his airline will not join any alliance since it does not need to. As a matter of fact, with its multiple partnerships and investments, EY is creating an alliance of its own that transcends the current "triopoly".



Quoting runway23 (Reply 2):
It would IMHO be the correct retribution to Star and LH for all their bashing of Gulf carriers.

I am under the impression that despite its partnership with EY, AF/KL CEO is not short of bashing the ME3 as well.



Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 4):
AMS really needs to increase its market share in India. Currently KL serves DEL and DL serves BOM, that's it.

Agreed. I believe KL has the potential to serve more destinations in India, possibly BOM with its own metal and a third destination (HYD, CCU or MAA are under served from Europe). I am not sure the bilateral allows this.

[Edited 2013-05-21 10:57:28]


I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7575 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 18862 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 1):
They can cozy up with their preferred picks within SkyTeam and basically have DL/AF/KL eat out of their hands while also maintaining a "hands-off, noncommittal" approach to the rest of SkyTeam with minimal backlash.

Interesting. They can that way serve SkyTeam hubs or SkyTeam-served airports with the help with DL, AF and KL, and/or through any other airline that happens to be an EY ally but not a SkyTeam member that serves those airports too. It is indeed very interesting how airlines that are members of alliances are now adapting to a world of bilateral or multilateral relationships that circumvent or go across alliances.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 2):
AB potentially leaving oneworld sooner than later.

Who knows. It seems AB has developed a good relationship with AA. I don't know how close BA and AB are, but I would imagine that it'd be interesting for BA to have an ally in Germany; therefore, it might be in the best interest of some oneworld carriers to keep AB in the fold. Then again, AF/KL could push to have AB switch. Let's see how this plays out.

Quoting Alsatian (Reply 3):
AMS is absolutely logical as it is the #1 airport to connect with all the UK primary and secondary cities. That is the key.

Good point. That did not occur to me at first until I saw your comment. AMS is also logical for connections to certain destinations in Norway, Sweden, etc. Of course this might not be as important as having good connectivity to the UK market, but it is another plus.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineglobalflyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 926 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 18707 times:

I wonder if with these new partnerships that EY and AF/KL and EY and DL would be able to gain status miles and lounge access without being a SkyTeam member. It would be a great bebfit to the passengers. I would favour this if EY does not join an alliance then at least we can get some benefits. Any ideas? I am not sure how the current EY partnerships work today?


Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25205 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 18289 times:

Does the India-Netherlands bilateral give Indian carriers 5th freedom rights beyond AMS to the U.S. and Canada?

User currently offlinestaralliance85 From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 17764 times:

This is very sad!! I was hoping that 9W would join Star but it is Not looking good!! A year ago it was a sure thing that QR and 9W would join *A. However, QR is going to OW and 9W is warming up to ST.


EY will probably end its relationship with AA and pull AB out of OW.



brad Fitzpatrick
User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1017 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17252 times:

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 12):
This is very sad!! I was hoping that 9W would join Star but it is Not looking good!! A year ago it was a sure thing that QR and 9W would join *A. However, QR is going to OW and 9W is warming up to ST.

One of the best-informed posters here indicated that 9W approached LH first, but LH was asking for too much. If its true, then LH and *A have only themselves to blame. LH really seems to have fluffed its lines in India.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
Does the India-Netherlands bilateral give Indian carriers 5th freedom rights beyond AMS to the U.S. and Canada?

Does AMS really have all that much to offer 9W on TATL that BRU doesn't? Most of the posters have noted that the AMS card will help 9W tap into the UK and other points in Europe. I would suspect that North America would be better served from AUH, courtesy of the latter's excellent connectivity to Indian cities (20-odd cities according to some of the PR stuff coming out).

Cant say I'm entirely convinced that AMS makes sense. I don't really buy the idea of another EU hub for 9W.


User currently offlineGr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3100 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17165 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 13):
Cant say I'm entirely convinced that AMS makes sense. I don't really buy the idea of another EU hub for 9W.

Why not? If they feed into DL and KL flights to various points in the US and Canada, that's very useful.....between them, DL and KL have much more coverage in N. America than anything that BRU has to offer.....9W can operate a couple of terminating flights to AMS in addition to one's that proceed on to EWR, YYZ and/or other destinations......


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13043 posts, RR: 100
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15912 times:
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I was so floored by this announcement that I went seeking other sources and found them:
http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...-airways-plans-an-amsterdam-switch

They say the same thing. This move makes incredible sense and yet I'm in 'enthusiast shock' to actually see an airline being run like a business!   

Rumors of hubs in Paris and Berlin too:
http://www.travelbizmonitor.com/jet-...s-in-amsterdam-berlin--paris-20420

I believe Paris. AF must change their tune and it looks like EY will be the conductor.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 1):
Wowowowwowowowowowowwow. This is pretty big. Then again, it also makes sense. BRU is basically a dead-end for Jet Airways in terms of value-added for a scissor hub.

   I had the same impression hearing this news. But doesn't it just make sense?

With *A, the best 9W could do is MUC. Now we're looking at AMS, CDG, BER, and I would bet some tie up with VS at LHR in the future. Wow is right...

Quoting runway23 (Reply 2):
The next step is EY stopping their partnership with AA, AB potentially leaving oneworld sooner than later.

Understatement. I'm not sure what has happened, but all of the sudden EY is coordinating Skyteam strategy in a big way. My jaw is on the ground at the magnitude of the strategy shift, but this means AB is 95% certain to leave OneWorld.

Anyone who has read prior posts of mine will know I have had an opinion change. Well... new facts and new opinions. EY has come up with a strategy for Skyteam that at first glance will be a HUGE winner for all participants.

My question is when does VS join Skyteam? We are witnessing a major shift in that alliance and I for one did not see it a year ago. But the shift is now here and it will be fun to witness.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 13):
Does AMS really have all that much to offer 9W on TATL that BRU doesn't?

Yes. Instead of weak feed depending on a scissor hub, they will have far better feed *and* excellent connections with KL. This is a big win/win move for both.

This is a game changer. Obviously EY has been laying the groundwork for years.

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 12):

This is very sad!! I was hoping that 9W would join Star but it is Not looking good!! A year ago it was a sure thing that QR and 9W would join *A. However, QR is going to OW and 9W is warming up to ST.


EY will probably end its relationship with AA and pull AB out of OW.

Why sad? This is an amazing strategic move. Far better than what I thought would have been possible for 9W a year ago. This is like watching a chessmaster pull an amazing move that no one saw until the pieces started falling... The connectivity change for 9W is the difference between life and death for them.

Between China and India Skyteam just took themselves from 'also ran' to a contender in the alliances.

Let's look on the bright side. This will open up the doors for AI and *A.    (Note: I do not think *A will take them in case the humor was too subtle.)

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 13):
One of the best-informed posters here indicated that 9W approached LH first, but LH was asking for too much. If its true, then LH and *A have only themselves to blame. LH really seems to have fluffed its lines in India.

If some executives at LH are not being informed to find a new position, then LH has their head in the sand. This was a HUGE strategic blunder on their part.

A year ago, this change wouldn't have made sense. But with the shocking (to me) increase in India air service rights to/from AUH *and* a tie up with Skyteam, the game has changed. Combine this with China Airlines, Xiamen, and China Eastern and we're talking some interesting changes coming...

This also helps EY. I think it is now obvious they will become the large mid-east hub for Skyteam.

I had almost written off EY vs. EK/QR. Before they were always an 'also ran.' Now?   

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineDeltaB717 From Australia, joined Jun 2012, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 14961 times:
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Quoting runway23 (Reply 2):
The next step is EY stopping their partnership with AA, AB potentially leaving oneworld sooner than later.

In a similar vein, I wonder what the EY / 9W partnership might mean for the QF / 9W codeshare? Would EY entertain part of its growing empire playing with a major partner of EK?


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 884 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 14811 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 13):
Does AMS really have all that much to offer 9W on TATL that BRU doesn't? Most of the posters have noted that the AMS card will help 9W tap into the UK and other points in Europe. I would suspect that North America would be better served from AUH, courtesy of the latter's excellent connectivity to Indian cities (20-odd cities according to some of the PR stuff coming out).

Cant say I'm entirely convinced that AMS makes sense. I don't really buy the idea of another EU hub for 9W.

It looks as if EY's strategy is to develop two distinct hubs for Indian traffic in cooperation with 9W:

- AUH & AMS

1. AUH to connect all (smaller) Indian destinations with the few large North American cities that can be served non-stop from AUH.

2. AMS to connect all (larger) Indian destinations with smaller North American destinations not served from AUH.

This will allow the EY/9W airlines to offer more Transatlantic choice than EK ever will using A380s to North America.


So lets have a closer look at this strategy:

1. HUB ABU DHABI:
- 9W will operate many B737s from smaller Indian places to feed the AUH hub (EK can't do that without help.)
- EY will operate larger capacity aircraft to bigger Indian cities, as well as to North America.

2. HUB AMSTERDAM:
- 9W will copy EY and codeshare with KL/DL over AMS to/from Europe and beyond..
- 9W will operate A330/B777 on its scissor hub routes from DEL, BOM, MAA, HYD with codeshare KL, DL.
- 9W will continue beyond AMS to JFK, EWR, YYZ expanding/replacing existing DL/KL flights on these routes.
- 9W will add code to DL/KL to SEA, PDX, YVR, YYC, SFO, LAX, MSP, DTW, IAH, IAD, ATL, BOS, YMX i.e. destinations not served by 9W or EY
- 9W will add its code to the vast European regional network of KL - UK, Germany, Scandinavia, etc.....
- 9W will add its code to the vast domestic USA operation of DL.
- DL/KL will add 9W code on AMS-DEL/BOM-AMS flights.
- KL & DL add their code to domestic Indian flights - already in place in some cases.

Perhaps it is starting to make some sense after all.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20563 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 14491 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 17):
- 9W will continue beyond AMS to JFK, EWR, YYZ expanding/replacing existing DL/KL flights on these routes.

What motivation would DL/KL have to replace flying done under their JV with a codeshare flown on the metal of a non-JV/non-alliance partner?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2238 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 14287 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):
Any update on EY and JAT Airways courtship?

Apparently so... http://exyuaviation.blogspot.ae/2013.../jat-takeover-offer-by-sunday.html



Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5483 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 14145 times:

Something that nobody has mentioned yet is that the UAE-NL bilaterals are maxed out. By transferring some AMS-India traffic over to 9W, EY could free up some open space on their own aircraft.


Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineJalap From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 355 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 14113 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 13):
One of the best-informed posters here indicated that 9W approached LH first, but LH was asking for too much. If its true, then LH and *A have only themselves to blame. LH really seems to have fluffed its lines in India.

Or this was LH's response to India not allowing them to use A380. Maybe LH just didn't have much reason to be cordial and welcoming to 9W.


User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13645 times:

If this comes to fruition (especially the HYD link for me out of AMS), it will be fantastic! I have long been hoping that SkyTeam would pick up 9W (and the Indian market) and this seems like a huge step in the right direction. With the Chinese carriers, GA coming online, and possibly this deal with 9W (not withstanding the cooperation with EY on the Kangaroo route), SkyTeam is incredibly well positioned.

From the posted article, I also found this to be incredible if true, "Luchtvaartnieuws reports that KLM CEO Peter Hartman claims that in only four months the two carriers had already booked an additional 10,000 passengers under this agreement"

If these numbers are accurate and continue to grow with additional partnerships with AB and 9W, AFKL might have found a key to digging itself out of its current financial hole. Add into all of this possible cooperation with VS and DL, and I am over the moon!

Regards,

Team



Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently offlinebrightcedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1288 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13380 times:

As far as BRU and SN are concerned I don't think this will be very problematic, quite the contrary.

BRU had become short of longhaul gates in the peak morning hours and had to shorten the Schengen terminal in the morning to allow for SN's Africa fleet to dock there instead.

9W had promised up to 12 B77W's per day coming from half a dozen points in India to half a dozen points in North America, eventually that was reduced from the initial 6 to about 4 smaller jets.

SN is growing its US offering and is establishing itself as the de facto home carrier for that traffic, AA is out, DL won't last, and 9W is now out as well. All the better for SN's codeshare service with AC on YYZ, maybe this will help with splitting up the YYZ and YUL operation between AC and SN.

EY's situation at BRU won't change, they'll cater for traffic as they do and try to funnel India traffic via AUH.

SN can count on LH to offer the India points and could start the route on its own if deemed useful.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 884 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13216 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
What motivation would DL/KL have to replace flying done under their JV with a codeshare flown on the metal of a non-JV/non-alliance partner?

It has been reported in the past that the direct SKYTEAM-9W discussions included 9W joining the Transatlantic JV and thus 9W could operate AMS-USA sectors or frequencies on behalf of DL/KL/AF/AZ.

We don't know yet whether this is part of these latest discussions, but it is a distinct possibility.


User currently onlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 966 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13333 times:

In my book, DL/AF/KL have a relatively poor offering from the SFO area to India. Hopefully, EY's move will develop into a scenario where either SFO-AUH nonstop service would be provided with connections onward, or 9W would be able to fly SFO-AMS more cheaply than DL/KL with onward connections to places like BLR and HYD. This same scenario may even play out in SEA, although in that market, DL/AF/AZ do not have as many challenges. Any additional flying to BLR/HYD could only benefit the DL/AF/KL, but the schedules have to be there at the right price. Anything less will not help them against LH/UA, and even then there would be marketing hurdles to jump (frequent flyer loyalty, brand recognition, product acceptance, etc.)

User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 754 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12263 times:

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 23):
SN is growing its US offering and is establishing itself as the de facto home carrier for that traffic, AA is out, DL won't last, and 9W is now out as well.

What makes you think DL won't last on ATL-BRU and JFK-BRU? I don't see either of those going anywhere in the near future. DL has shown it is willing to dump or seasonally cut transatlantic routes to destinations with mostly VFR and leisure traffic, but Brussels is a key business market in Europe and there is no indication that I'm aware of that either route is doing poorly. Especially since AA and 9W left JFK-BRU.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4901 posts, RR: 25
Reply 27, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12290 times:
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Quoting brightcedars (Reply 23):
DL won't last,

DL has hung on to double daily BRU service for years now, even when they could only support a 757 between JFK and BRU. Since then, DL's performance on JFK-BRU has improved quite a bit, especially with AA and 9W's exit from JFK-BRU, and with the introduction of the new product on the 767 on the route.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13043 posts, RR: 100
Reply 28, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12220 times:
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Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 16):
Would EY entertain part of its growing empire playing with a major partner of EK?
Quoting factsonly (Reply 17):
It looks as if EY's strategy is to develop two distinct hubs for Indian traffic in cooperation with 9W:

- AUH & AMS

1. AUH to connect all (smaller) Indian destinations with the few large North American cities that can be served non-stop from AUH.

2. AMS to connect all (larger) Indian destinations with smaller North American destinations not served from AUH.

It makes much more sense when you realize the incentive for KL/AF to help feed EY. Combine this with the Chinese airlines at AUH, and we'll see fast growth.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 17):
Perhaps it is starting to make some sense after all.

That it does. Before EY's investments seemed along the lines of QR's. Semi-strategic. Now EY looks to have invested very well.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
What motivation would DL/KL have to replace flying done under their JV with a codeshare flown on the metal of a non-JV/non-alliance partner?

None. It is the added destinations that DL/KL will happily help fill. They will also be motivated to fly from secondary European cities to AUH. If they don't, then AB will do it for them.

This will make it *far* easier for EY to expand European bilaterals than EK...   

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinebrightcedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1288 posts, RR: 2
Reply 29, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12179 times:

You guys are right, DL might last, just because of their sheer size, but I still think SN+UA will eventually command the vast majority of the market. DL has more interest in nearby AMS (KL), CDG (AF) and LHR (VS) so I'm not sure they'd keep the NYC run forever, especially with increasing pressure from the SN+UA combo.

Who would have thought of AA leaving JFK-BRU?



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineFlying Belgian From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 2390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 30, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12095 times:
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Quoting brightcedars (Reply 29):
Who would have thought of AA leaving JFK-BRU?

And ORD-BRU !!

It seems that UA is really really doing well at the moment in BRU. Most of the time their three BRU services are FULL in all proposed classes...

But anyway, we've never seen such a saga: Since how long 9W must decide on an alliance ? Almost 6 years now. Amazing to realize that none of the Indian Airlines have since joined any of the three major alliances...



Life is great at 41.000 feet...
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 884 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11477 times:

A joint EY/KL press release is now online:

ETIHAD:

http://www.etihad.com/en/about-us/ne...airways-klm-strategic-partnership/

KLM:

http://nieuws.klm.com/start-tweede-f...e-tussen-etihad-airways-en-klm-en/


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 884 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11430 times:

Sorry, more developments today.....

KLM announces a codeshare agreement with PEGASUS of Turkey.

KLM's strategy is starting to look similar to EY..build codeshare business over your hub with every airline flying! Particularly if this helps compete with new competitors (TK in this case).

QUOTE:

KLM Royal Dutch Airlines and Pegasus Airlines announced today that they have signed a code share agreement effective for sales May 27th and for travel June 3rd, 2013. Passengers will benefit from quick and easy transfers between Pegasus flights and KLM flights through Amsterdam Airport Schiphol, Istanbul Sabiha Gökçen airport and Izmir Adnan Menderes Airport.

http://nieuws.klm.com/klm-en-pegasus...kenen-codesharing-overeenkomst-en/


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25200 posts, RR: 48
Reply 33, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11096 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
Rumors of hubs in Paris and Berlin too:

Yes, some more details in the below linked story.

But basically 9W says it will focus on Etihad's network and ties with other carriers and that Amsterdam, Berlin, and Paris are the natural European connection points for the airline.

http://www.aviationpros.com/news/109...erlin-paris-for-international-hubs

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 884 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11022 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
But basically 9W says it will focus on Etihad's network and ties with other carriers and that Amsterdam, Berlin, and Paris are the natural European connection points for the airline.

Well.........they happen to be the main AF/KL/AB hubs .....of EY's new partners!


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20563 posts, RR: 62
Reply 35, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 10817 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
None. It is the added destinations that DL/KL will happily help fill. They will also be motivated to fly from secondary European cities to AUH. If they don't, then AB will do it for them.

That makes more sense. I remember 8 or 9 years ago when the last US-India bilateral was signed, it allowed for US airlines to hub in Europe for onward connections to India, I wonder if the same ability exists to the UAE, so that DL could fly some of that traffic on their own metal.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3972 posts, RR: 2
Reply 36, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 10593 times:
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Reading everything that has been linked to so far, I can't tell whether the plan is to move the scissor hub from BRU to AMS or to end the scissor hub operation altogether and replace it with exchange hubs in AMS and one additional city where Jet uses code-shares to reach their ultimate destinations. Frankly, the latter seems more likely than the former. At the time the scissor hub was set up, Jet did not have the partnerships it does now and flying the entire route on its own metal was the only option, but now that it is no longer the case, I am not sure that it makes sense to continue with a scissor hub.

Since a scissor hub probably requires new traffic rights, at least from the Netherlands (the US shouldn't be a problem), Jet would need the support of KLM to give it some guarantee of success, but is it really likely to be forthcoming if this creates additional competition on TATL flights? Yes, a joint-venture is possible, but far from certain, and KLM would be taking a big risk to support new rights now for a possible pay-off later, unless Jet or Etihad can somehow offer something else in exchange.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 24):
It has been reported in the past that the direct SKYTEAM-9W discussions included 9W joining the Transatlantic JV and thus 9W could operate AMS-USA sectors or frequencies on behalf of DL/KL/AF/AZ.

I'm not convinced Jet can operate transatlantic flights out of AMS at a lower cost. For the single highest expense, fuel, KLM has the volume to negotiate better deals than Jet. Regarding labor cost, the lower salary comes with a higher trip cost, having to feed and house crews both in AMS and North America.

In addition, the joint-venture would have to be in place on day one to make sense. Other carriers have done it, but it is by no mean guaranteed.

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 23):
DL won't last

Despite the clear dominance of United in the Belgian market, Delta has been able to hold on to some juicy corporate contracts and isn't going anywhere.

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 23):
BRU had become short of longhaul gates in the peak morning hours and had to shorten the Schengen terminal in the morning to allow for SN's Africa fleet to dock there instead.

If this means I won't have to be climbing up the stairs to get into a 767 under cold winter rain anymore, I'll be happy.

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 29):
Who would have thought of AA leaving JFK-BRU?

Unlike Delta, American relied heavily on its European/African code-shares with Brussels to make BRU work, not just O/D. I will not say the writing was on the wall then, but once Brussels announced they would join Star, a massive American drawdown in BRU became a distinct possibility, with a withdrawal from JFK always more likely than from ORD.

[Edited 2013-05-22 11:15:24]


I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1175 posts, RR: 2
Reply 37, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 10530 times:
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It will be interesting to see how fast an ATL-AUH or even a DTW-AUH gets rolled out, and for how much longer Delta will serve DXB from ATL.


The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 10440 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 36):

Since a scissor hub probably requires new traffic rights, at least from the Netherlands (the US shouldn't be a problem)

Only if the need them for AMS-US. No Indian airline is flying between AMS and DEL/BOM thus 9W can use the rights.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 17):
- DL/KL will add 9W code on AMS-DEL/BOM-AMS flights.

AFAIK KL doesn't have enough traffic rights to put a KL code on additional flights between AMS and DEL/BOM.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 36):
Yes, a joint-venture is possible, but far from certain, and KLM would be taking a big risk to support new rights now for a possible pay-off later, unless Jet or Etihad can somehow offer something else in exchange.

AF/DL/KL already offered 9W to enter their TATL joint venture if they would move to Skyteam. That offer is probably still on the table.


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 884 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10167 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 38):
AFAIK KL doesn't have enough traffic rights to put a KL code on additional flights between AMS and DEL/BOM.


What is referred to here is that 9W will add its code to existing DL & KL flights AMS-BOM/DEL.

In addition KLM operated AMS-HYD in the past on top of its daily AMS-DEL flights, as the India-NL bilateral permits each nation to operate 14 frequencies.

DL is operating AMS-BOM under the USA-India & USA-NL bilaterals. The KL codeshare on this route is permitted under the India-NL bilateral.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25205 posts, RR: 22
Reply 40, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9987 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 13):
Does AMS really have all that much to offer 9W on TATL that BRU doesn't?

AMS has a much larger network of potential connecting destinations than BRU, and an excellent reputation as an efficient, user-friendly hub.


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1017 posts, RR: 4
Reply 41, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 9828 times:

To the many posters who responded to my musings about AMS: Thanks, that was informative. The general consensus seem to be that 9W will benefit from KL/DL feed there. I vaguely remember reading about an AF/EY partnership of sorts, but I didn't realise it would include a strategic partnership. If 9W will, in fact, become a part of the TATL JV, then I have to agree - its a great idea for 9W. I certainly hope they'll continue to operate the TATL flights on their own metal.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 40):

AMS has a much larger network of potential connecting destinations than BRU, and an excellent reputation as an efficient, user-friendly hub.

AMS used to be my favorite hub, but thanks to 9W and TK, I haven't been there in over 5 years. Looks like 9W will take me back. I expect this signals the end of 9Ws relationship with TK (and other *A carriers), which is a pity. 9W and KL have had a partnership of sorts for as long as I can remember (KL International feed connecting to Indian domestic long before 9W went international).

Quoting Jalap (Reply 21):
Or this was LH's response to India not allowing them to use A380. Maybe LH just didn't have much reason to be cordial and welcoming to 9W.

Ever heard the phrase: "Cutting one's nose to spite one's face"? LH needs India more than India needs LH. When the entire AI-*A fiasco took place, LH openly stated it wanted 9W in *A. So much so that it managed to anger the Indian Government just enough to make the Govt threaten to terminate LX operations in India. LH has spent a lot of time cultivating India. It now appears to be losing ground not just to EK, but to EY as well. I would rate losing 9W as a pretty big setback for LH's strategy for India. Guess they got too greedy.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 36):
Since a scissor hub probably requires new traffic rights, at least from the Netherlands (the US shouldn't be a problem), Jet would need the support of KLM to give it some guarantee of success, but is it really likely to be forthcoming if this creates additional competition on TATL flights? Yes, a joint-venture is possible, but far from certain, and KLM would be taking a big risk to support new rights now for a possible pay-off later, unless Jet or Etihad can somehow offer something else in exchange.

But then again, one could argue that with new connectivity, they might actually stimulate more traffic from South Asia. I doubt 9W is going to make inroads against DL and KL. To put it in perspective, one of my colleagues in Canada wanted the company to pay nearly $8,000 to fly him on AC from YYZ to BRU, when 9W was selling J for $4,500. He simply hadn't heard of 9W and couldn't understand how an Indian carrier could compete with North America's best airline (North American insularity in a nutshell). Outside the South Asian population, I doubt anyone knows anything about 9W in Canada. I expect the same applies to Europe. And its not just 9W - someone I know who routinely flies TS to Europe couldn't understand why I would choose TK over AC/LH to India. Errr...   I tried to explained the old dictum : Hospitality gets better as you go east.

9Ws TATL success is likely going to built purely on traffic to/from India, and I think that traffic is growing fast enough to not put overcapacity pressure on KL/DL.


User currently offlineairdfw From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9551 times:

Could DL have gotten more if it had invested the money in 9W instead of VS? I think both AI and 9W spent valuable time chasing Star dream instead of building the alliances strategically.

User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8808 posts, RR: 5
Reply 43, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9498 times:
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Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 12):
EY will probably end its relationship with AA and pull AB out of OW.

Not necessarily. Interestingly, in anticipation of launching the AUH-GRU route next month, EY just sealed a code-share agreement with TAM Linhas Aéreas and TAM Airlines Paraguay in order to offer connections to 37 destinations across TAM's network via LATAM's Guarulhos hub.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13043 posts, RR: 100
Reply 44, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 9310 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
and that Amsterdam, Berlin, and Paris are the natural European connection points for the airline.

Natural as in Skyteam?  
Hey, the link notes AI will restart their bid for *A. That will be fun to watch.    What a miss for *A not to pick up 9W. Yea, I know Skyteam isn't official, but it certainly looks likely.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 35):
I wonder if the same ability exists to the UAE, so that DL could fly some of that traffic on their own metal.

I fully expect DL to fly to AUH. But when? It will take better connections, ensured by the EY/9W deal, to make that happen. But what happens if Skyteam converges there for mideast/regional connections?

It takes a minimum connectivity to attract 'hub to hub' flights. IMHO, AUH isn't there yet. But EY has laid the groundwork to be there well within 3 years.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 43):
Interestingly, in anticipation of launching the AUH-GRU route next month, EY just sealed a code-share agreement with TAM Linhas Aéreas and TAM Airlines Paraguay in order to offer connections to 37 destinations across TAM's network via LATAM's Guarulhos hub.

EY is being wise on code sharing...

Quoting airdfw (Reply 42):
Could DL have gotten more if it had invested the money in 9W instead of VS?

DL will get most of the milk for free, why buy the cow? DL didn't need to buy access to India (the US has an open skies with allowed European hubbing).

EY did well, but much of the benefit for AUH wouldn't have translated for DL at AMS or CDG. But since 9W/EY are aligning towards skyteam, the benefits will come cheap (if not for free). DL wins on this deal. Its a question of when they launch flights to AUH, not if. IMHO, they should wait 9 to 15 months, but that is based on a fast ramp up in connections to India...

Quoting airdfw (Reply 42):
I think both AI and 9W spent valuable time chasing Star dream instead of building the alliances strategically.

9W just had EY refocus them on profit and it looks like Skyteam...


Lightsber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9208 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 39):
In addition KLM operated AMS-HYD in the past on top of its daily AMS-DEL flights, as the India-NL bilateral permits each nation to operate 14 frequencies.

DL is operating AMS-BOM under the USA-India & USA-NL bilaterals. The KL codeshare on this route is permitted under the India-NL bilateral.

AFAIK the situation in the Dutch - Indian bilatereal is similar to the one with China. It limits flights to certain destinations (in this case BOM/DEL) only. KL does indeed have 14 frequencies between The Netherlands and BOM/DEL. Thus there is no way KL can codeshare on AMS-DEL/BOM as the codeshare count as a used frequency.


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 884 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9025 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 17):
DL/KL will add 9W code on AMS-DEL/BOM-AMS flights.
- KL & DL add their code to domestic Indian flights - already in place in some cases.
Quoting LJ (Reply 45):
KL does indeed have 14 frequencies between The Netherlands and BOM/DEL. Thus there is no way KL can codeshare on AMS-DEL/BOM as the codeshare count as a used frequency.


Read the original post again and you will see it was never suggested KL codeshare to BOM/DEL.

It was proposed that 9W would add its code on to DL/KL metal AMS BOM/DEL.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8909 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 46):
Read the original post again and you will see it was never suggested KL codeshare to BOM/DEL.
Quoting factsonly (Reply 17):
2. HUB AMSTERDAM:
- 9W will operate A330/B777 on its scissor hub routes from DEL, BOM, MAA, HYD with codeshare KL, DL.

I interpreted this as KL putting its code on 9Ws BOM/DEL - AMS. Thanks for the clarification.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 46):
It was proposed that 9W would add its code on to DL/KL metal AMS BOM/DEL.
Quoting factsonly (Reply 17):
2. HUB AMSTERDAM:
- 9W will operate A330/B777 on its scissor hub routes from DEL, BOM, MAA, HYD with codeshare KL, DL.
- DL/KL will add 9W code on AMS-DEL/BOM-AMS flights.

Yet then we would have the same problem as Indian airlines are also restricted to fly between AMS and BOM/DEL, or do you mean that 9W won't operate BOM/DEL - AMS (which isn't in the plans AFAIK)?


User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 620 posts, RR: 16
Reply 48, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8896 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
Yea, I know Skyteam isn't official, but it certainly looks likely.

It may look likely but I would not take it for granted giving EY's averseness to Alliances, bearing in mind EY's stake into 9W. In fact, what substantial advantage (besides making it possible for its pax to benefit from the "Sky Priority" concept) would 9W get with a costly ST membership that extensive codeshares and FF programs agreements with fellow airlines could not provide ?



Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
EY is being wise on code sharing

VERY wise ! They are building a virtual worldwide network with just their codeshare agreements...Their strategy differs from EK's and we will see in the long term which one proves to be more efficient.



I am not sure this was mentioned in this thread but AMS is a much more "natural" - or valuable - connection point for an Indian airline than BRU : the Netherlands has the second largest population of people of Indian origin in Europe (next only to the UK). It is home to about 220,000 Indians (including the Surinami Hindustani Diaspora, that has still deep cultural links with India).



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8775 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 8):
Agreed. I believe KL has the potential to serve more destinations in India, possibly BOM with its own metal and a third destination (HYD, CCU or MAA are under served from Europe). I am not sure the bilateral allows this.
Quoting LJ (Reply 45):
AFAIK the situation in the Dutch - Indian bilatereal is similar to the one with China. It limits flights to certain destinations (in this case BOM/DEL) only. KL does indeed have 14 frequencies between The Netherlands and BOM/DEL. Thus there is no way KL can codeshare on AMS-DEL/BOM as the codeshare count as a used frequency.

I believe the Dutch-India bilateral allows passenger services to three Indian destinations on a Dutch carrier. BOM and DEL are specified, the third destination is open to the airline. Hence, KLM has served HYD and CCU (as a DEL tag-on) in the past under this arrangement.

That said, premium demand from cities other than BOM, DEL and maybe BLR is, and remains, low. This forced KLM and LH to withdraw from HYD. AF and 9W cancelled services to MAA from Europe. Various american airlines scaled down, etc.


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 884 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8719 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 47):
Yet then we would have the same problem as Indian airlines are also restricted to fly between AMS and BOM/DEL, or do you mean that 9W won't operate BOM/DEL - AMS (which isn't in the plans AFAIK)?

Well, let's give it a go and build two possible 9W/DL/KL scenario's for operations over AMS:

-> Scenario 1. Under the current bilaterals.
-> Scenario 2. Under new bilaterals.

1. Under the current bilaterals 1A.

- 9W operates MAA-AMS daily - continues to JFK (DL hub)
- 9W operates HYD-AMS daily - continues to YYZ (replaces early KLM metal to YYZ)
- DL operates BOM-AMS daily
- KL operates DEL-AMS daily
- KL operates CCU-AMS daily

Under the current bilaterals 1B - DL is unrestricted:

- 9W operates BOM-AMS no.1
- 9W operates DEL-AMS no.1
- DL operates BOM-AMS no. 2
- DL operates MAA-AMS
- KL operates HYD-AMS
- KL operates DEL-AMS no.2

many variations are possible.

2. NEW Bilaterals:

- Basically anything is open/possible.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13043 posts, RR: 100
Reply 51, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8304 times:
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Quoting Azure (Reply 48):
In fact, what substantial advantage (besides making it possible for its pax to benefit from the "Sky Priority" concept) would 9W get with a costly ST membership that extensive codeshares and FF programs agreements with fellow airlines could not provide ?

My opinion is that Skyteam membership will allow an even more extensive codeshare base for 9W. For EY it would make them the de-facto mid-east hub. It would also allow 9W to strengthen one or two hubs in India (I suspect DEL and MAA).

However, as you noted, if 9W/EY are able to build up strong enough code share deals, no alliance is required.

Quoting Azure (Reply 48):
I am not sure this was mentioned in this thread but AMS is a much more "natural" - or valuable - connection point for an Indian airline than BRU : the Netherlands has the second largest population of people of Indian origin in Europe (next only to the UK).

  

And the reality is that AMS is not that far from BRU. There is more and more cross boarder O&D going on... e.g., at my prior employer coworkers rarely flew into AMS, but often into Germany, for business in the East Netherlands (Fokker). It was all based on cost/benefit.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8303 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 50):
2. NEW Bilaterals:

I'll go for this option  


User currently onlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4774 posts, RR: 43
Reply 53, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8344 times:

Please note that 9W's USA flights in the future will all be routed via AUH except YYZ which will be re-routed via AMS.

AMS will act as 9W's primary EU hub and be used for DEL-AMS-YYZ service.

AUH-USA flights will be flown using B77Ws hence it will provide EY and 9W to combine serve EWR + JFK daily.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8254 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 53):
AMS will act as 9W's primary EU hub and be used for DEL-AMS-YYZ service.

This is/was also what the rumours mentioned. However the rumours suggest an evening departure ex AMS to BOM as well (thus a BOM - AMS - BOM + DEL - AMS - YYZ - AMS - DEL.


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 55, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8212 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 53):
Please note that 9W's USA flights in the future will all be routed via AUH except YYZ which will be re-routed via AMS.

AMS will act as 9W's primary EU hub and be used for DEL-AMS-YYZ service.

AUH-USA flights will be flown using B77Ws hence it will provide EY and 9W to combine serve EWR + JFK daily.

Behramjee -- this is interesting info. Will 9W maintain other India-Europe non-stops as well, eg to LHR?


User currently onlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4774 posts, RR: 43
Reply 56, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8210 times:

of course BOM-LHR and DEL-LHR services will be maintained...those were never going to be suspended.

I really hope that at least BOM-BRU remains online as the market segment yields are 35% higher versus DEL due to higher J class loads and saw the same O&D demand in 2012 i.e. 45,000 pax. 9W has invested so much into their BRU operations that it would be a shame for it to be completely shut down. They can easily support BRU with feed via BOM to domestic India, CMB and SE Asia.


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 57, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8038 times:

The prolem with using AMS as a EU hub is that many locations require backtracking. Only the UK is well situated for India-nad AUH flows. A more eastern hub, or indeed AUH itself may be better placed to serve as the hub for Europe for 9W. Even BER is better located.

User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7881 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 57):
Even BER is better located.

Regrettably though, 9W would like to enact their new European strategy before BER's opening date of 2024

  

Regards,

Team



Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25205 posts, RR: 22
Reply 59, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 7651 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 48):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
Yea, I know Skyteam isn't official, but it certainly looks likely.

It may look likely but I would not take it for granted giving EY's averseness to Alliances,

Read what EY's CEO said about alliances in an interview just a week or two ago and it's highly unlikely they will be joining any of the existing alliances.
http://gulfbusiness.com/2013/05/excl...ams-legacy-alliances/#.UZ5dqtjyWE8

Excerpt:

“The legacy alliances have evolved into slow-to-respond, bureaucratic organisations which struggle to deliver added value to their member airlines, many of which are no longer compatible with each other.

“It is easier, faster, and far more cost effective for Etihad Airways to grow through one-on-one partnerships with established, respected, carriers than to rely on its own resources and to start from scratch in every market,” he said.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5197 posts, RR: 6
Reply 60, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7577 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 13):
Does AMS really have all that much to offer 9W on TATL that BRU doesn't?

Well AMS offers alot more connectivity than BRU

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):

My question is when does VS join Skyteam?

When the DL JV is implemented. The have a lot on their hands currently wtith the launch of domesitc services which incrreases their daily LHR departures by about 30% and the new DL JV........... so I'd expect a 2014 entry  


User currently onlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4774 posts, RR: 43
Reply 61, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7548 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 57):
The prolem with using AMS as a EU hub is that many locations require backtracking. Only the UK is well situated for India-nad AUH flows. A more eastern hub, or indeed AUH itself may be better placed to serve as the hub for Europe for 9W. Even BER is better located.

please note that the biggest Europe-India market is the UK and there is no better hub to ensure maximum coverage of the UK is made directly possible other than flying via AMS. Passengers do not like flying to intra-UK points via LHR hence with KLM operating regional aircraft into the secondary UK cities provides that unique advantage for the Indian passenger.

in addition, AMS will also act as the primary gateway for the Benelux and Scandinavia region of which there is huge demand especially to DEL and BOM year round but not so much to the Southern/Central cities.

If an Indian needs to go to Central Europe, the main markets relevant to the Indian public are now adequately covered via AUH on EY !


User currently offlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 497 posts, RR: 1
Reply 62, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7337 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 50):
KL operates CCU-AMS daily

Won't happen again. Not enough west bound passengers from CCU that aren't being covered by QR or EK.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 53):
Please note that 9W's USA flights in the future will all be routed via AUH except YYZ which will be re-routed via AMS.

AMS will act as 9W's primary EU hub and be used for DEL-AMS-YYZ service.

If the whole KL/DL/EY/9W thing goes through, can't 9W supplement KL's ops to YUL, YYC or YVR as well?



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 63, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7306 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 61):
please note that the biggest Europe-India market is the UK and there is no better hub to ensure maximum coverage of the UK is made directly possible other than flying via AMS. Passengers do not like flying to intra-UK points via LHR hence with KLM operating regional aircraft into the secondary UK cities provides that unique advantage for the Indian passenger.
Quoting behramjee (Reply 61):

If an Indian needs to go to Central Europe, the main markets relevant to the Indian public are now adequately covered via AUH on EY !

Yes, agreed. If AMS is used for UK and NW Europe and AUH for Central and Southern Europe, they will have Europe well covered. An excellent plan. AMS in fact probably has more flights to more UK cities than LHR!


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 884 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6900 times:

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 62):
If the whole KL/DL/EY/9W thing goes through, can't 9W supplement KL's ops to YUL, YYC or YVR as well?

If this goes through and the Canadian-India bilateral permits additional codesharing, one may certainly expect 9W to codeshare on KL to YYZ, YMX, YYC, YVR or operate its own metal to Canada via AMS.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 63):
AMS in fact probably has more flights to more UK cities than LHR!


You can make that a fact, the data are as follows:

- AMS connects to 27 UK airports:

ABZ, INV, EDI, GLA, BFS, NCL, MME, LBA, HUY, MAN, LPL, EMA, BHX, NWI, STN, LTN, SEN, LCY, LHR, LGW, MSE, SOU, BRS, CWL, EXT, JER and soon CBG.

- LHR connects to 8 UK airports:

ABZ, EDI, GLA, BFS, BHD, NCL, LBA, MAN.

The fastest air connection from Inverness to LHR is infact via AMS on KL:

- dep. 12:25 INV - arr. LHR 16:15 KL2898/KL1025 1 stop AMS = 3h.50m (INV-AMS codeshare on BE)


User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6807 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 53):

Will Jet be opening any more US destinations, or is it just EWR/JFK for now?


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6646 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 51):
My opinion is that Skyteam membership will allow an even more extensive codeshare base for 9W. For EY it would make them the de-facto mid-east hub. It would also allow 9W to strengthen one or two hubs in India (I suspect DEL and MAA).

However, as you noted, if 9W/EY are able to build up strong enough code share deals, no alliance is required.

I think membership in Skyteam is not as likely as some here think.

Membership in Skyteam and, more importantly, entry into the JV, for 9W actually reduces DL's incentive to cooperate with EY.

The majority of destinations where DL/EY make sense are covered by the JV. Routing passengers over AUH would actually be money out of DL's pocket, and, other than new Indian destinations, what connectivity is EY offering DL that it doesn't have currently from KL or AF?

On the other hand, 9W not in Skyteam means EY is just as good a source for those passengers onward from wherever Delta drops them off.

But still, anytime DL can put a passenger on AF or KL, it has financial incentive to do so over using a codeshare partner.


User currently onlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2887 posts, RR: 18
Reply 67, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6469 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 53):

Please note that 9W's USA flights in the future will all be routed via AUH except YYZ which will be re-routed via AMS.
Quoting behramjee (Reply 53):
AMS will act as 9W's primary EU hub and be used for DEL-AMS-YYZ service.

Yes which if you look at is just one trans atlantic flight from AMS [unfortunately], if the hub moves ahead full swing we should see BOM/DEL/MAA-AMS and one of these go on to YYZ, which would mean keeping 2 330s at AMS for a long time

Quoting behramjee (Reply 56):
I really hope that at least BOM-BRU remains online as the market segment yields are 35% higher versus DEL due to higher J class loads and saw the same O&D demand in 2012 i.e. 45,000 pax. 9W has inves

Does not make sense these passengers will be funnelled through EYs flight via AUH, and are you sure the O&D is that high

Quoting behramjee (Reply 61):
please note that the biggest Europe-India market is the UK and there is no better hub to ensure maximum coverage of the UK is made directly possible other than flying via AMS

  

My relatives who have two under 5 year old kids and family in BHX, they used to intentionally take BOM-BRU-BHX, LHR-BOM , so that they got two red eye journeys in the process

AMS should provide the same, infact if DL/9W co ordinate flights we could have a red eye from AMS as well

Quoting factsonly (Reply 64):
- AMS connects to 27 UK airports:

ABZ, INV, EDI, GLA, BFS, NCL, MME, LBA, HUY, MAN, LPL, EMA, BHX, NWI, STN, LTN, SEN, LCY, LHR, LGW, MSE, SOU, BRS, CWL, EXT, JER and soon CBG.

Thanks for the list, do you have a similar comparison with BRU

Karan


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 884 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6377 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 64):
- AMS connects to 27 UK airports:

ABZ, INV, EDI, GLA, BFS, NCL, MME, LBA, HUY, MAN, LPL, EMA, BHX, NWI, STN, LTN, SEN, LCY, LHR, LGW, MSE, SOU, BRS, CWL, EXT, JER and soon CBG.

- LHR connects to 8 UK airports:

ABZ, EDI, GLA, BFS, BHD, NCL, LBA, MAN.
Quoting Karan69 (Reply 67):
Thanks for the list, do you have a similar comparison with BRU


Well, BRU serves 6 UK destinations: EDI, MAN, BHX, EMA, BRS, LHR.


User currently offline15a From India, joined Jan 2006, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5674 times:

http://www.business-standard.com/art...t-s-us-flights-113052700023_1.html

As per this, BOM-EWR will move to AUH from BRU as quickly as next month. Also talk of startup of DEL-AUH-JFK soon and BLR-AUH-ORD by November. Also more connectors from other Indian cities.


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3972 posts, RR: 2
Reply 70, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5573 times:
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So if I understand well, the scissor hub is being moved to AUH and intra-European connections (with YYZ) are going to AMS.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 67):
Does not make sense these passengers will be funnelled through EYs flight via AUH, and are you sure the O&D is that high

The problem is, if the O&D is as high as reported, Etihad may not have enough empty seats to BRU on its current flights and I don't know that they have a spare 777 to upgauge. Alternatively, they could always add two or three flights on top of their 8 weekly frequencies.

In the past, both Etihad and Qatar Airways have run into problems when trying to increase flights at BRU due to the lack of available gates at the non-Schengen terminal in the morning, but it seems as though there will be a few freeing up soon...

Quoting 15a (Reply 69):
Also talk of startup of DEL-AUH-JFK soon and BLR-AUH-ORD by November.

I thought Jet did not have the right to serve ORD. When did that change?



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 497 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5559 times:

So you mean to say the DEL-AUH-JFK will be the add-on service as of June?

Also what metal would be used on these flights DEL/BOM-AUH-JFK/EWR, the triple 3s or the 7s?



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently onlineProst From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1012 posts, RR: 1
Reply 72, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5533 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 70):
I thought Jet did not have the right to serve ORD. When did that change?

The US and India have open skies.


User currently onlineProst From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1012 posts, RR: 1
Reply 73, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5530 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 70):
I thought Jet did not have the right to serve ORD. When did that change?

The US and India have open skies.


User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3224 posts, RR: 9
Reply 74, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5497 times:

Quoting 15a (Reply 69):
As per this, BOM-EWR will move to AUH from BRU as quickly as next month. Also talk of startup of DEL-AUH-JFK soon and BLR-AUH-ORD by November. Also more connectors from other Indian cities.

The sooner 9W operationalize their new "strategy" and move their ops to AUH, the better for everyone involved. Next month is not too quick, but not too far away either.



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5411 times:

Quoting 15a (Reply 69):


http://www.business-standard.com/art...t-s-us-flights-113052700023_1.html

As per this, BOM-EWR will move to AUH from BRU as quickly as next month. Also talk of startup of DEL-AUH-JFK soon and BLR-AUH-ORD by November. Also more connectors from other Indian cities.

EY already flies to ORD from AUH; which can be reached from BLR on EY. I am assuming this is just the addition of seats.


User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1791 posts, RR: 4
Reply 76, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5418 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 48):
It is home to about 220,000 Indians (including the Surinami Hindustani Diaspora, that has still deep cultural links with India).

They are Surinamese, not Indians, and their links to India aren't that great.

Even so, the presence of a diaspora does not ensure airline traffic. New York has more NRIs, that is real Indians with strong links to India, than the whole of The Netherlands combined. Yet 9W couldn't make JFK work.



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5473 times:

Quoting Nimish (Reply 74):

The sooner 9W operationalize their new "strategy" and move their ops to AUH, the better for everyone involved. Next month is not too quick, but not too far away either.

Also, hopefully Jet can expand its US destinations; really hoping for them to start LAX and return to SFO. I know they would have started LAX had the economy not gone south back in 08/09.


User currently onlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2887 posts, RR: 18
Reply 78, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5154 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 70):
Etihad may not have enough empty seats to BRU on its current flights and I don't know that they have a spare 777 to upgauge

There are plans to Wet lease some of Jets 777s, EY anyways wanted Jet to operate AUH-GRU on their behalf

Also I guess they wont start JFK/ORD themselves as EY already operates there,

I see them using their 77Ws on BOM-AUH-EWR, and EY should upguage Equipment on DEL/BOM/BLR/MAA in its first phase

Karan


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13043 posts, RR: 100
Reply 79, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4891 times:
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Quoting delimit (Reply 66):
But still, anytime DL can put a passenger on AF or KL, it has financial incentive to do so over using a codeshare partner.

I still think Skyteam is likely as DL will keep with the JV either way. That is a far more profitable route sharing than will happen even within an alliance. Hence the strategy of expansion to smaller Indian cities for EY/9W. I also see huge value in Skyteam due to the Chinese partners.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 70):
The problem is, if the O&D is as high as reported, Etihad may not have enough empty seats to BRU on its current flights and I don't know that they have a spare 777 to upgauge. Alternatively, they could always add two or three flights on top of their 8 weekly frequencies.

Due to the hubbing at AUH, it will need to be multiple flights.

Looking at the great circle mapper the flight is 3214sm or 2793nm. That should be possible with a 738 (but not an A320). So there are options to increase frequency. Or we wait 18 months for EY's 787s or about another year for 9Ws 787s.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 620 posts, RR: 16
Reply 80, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4852 times:

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 76):
Surinamese, not Indians, and their links to India aren't that great.

It is not what I have read elsewhere.

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 76):
the presence of a diaspora does not ensure airline traffic.

Yes and no. It may ensure traffic, but very irregularly during the year and generally a low-yielding one.
But my point was certainly not to say 9W is moving its scissor hub from BRU to AMS because of an Indian - Surinamese diaspora, on that we can agree for sure.



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25205 posts, RR: 22
Reply 81, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 4529 times:

Quoting Prost (Reply 73):
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 70):
I thought Jet did not have the right to serve ORD. When did that change?

The US and India have open skies.

Since 2005.


User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3224 posts, RR: 9
Reply 82, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4372 times:

So besides a newspaper article (and those don't mean much in India), is there anything else that indicates what 9W is planning? If they're looking to move flights away from BRU in a month's time, shouldn't they be busy making announcements and rebooking pax as needed?


Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4312 times:

Quoting Nimish (Reply 82):
If they're looking to move flights away from BRU in a month's time, shouldn't they be busy making announcements and rebooking pax as needed?

I doubt it will be in 1 months time as the article mentions "subject to government apporval" and we haven't seen any DOT filing (wouldn't this be required?) and/or progress on EY buying its 24% stake in 9W. Thus untill this plan is cleared by the governments who needs to clear it, I don't expect a formal announcement not any action regarding rebooking etc.


User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1791 posts, RR: 4
Reply 84, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 4158 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 22):
If this comes to fruition (especially the HYD link for me out of AMS), it will be fantastic!

9W or not, that is one route that will never come back. It was one of KL's lowest yielding ones, and with EK doing 3X daily DXB-HYD, that market is completely closed for everyone else. Even LH has withdrawn from HYD.

Only BA is able to make HYD work, due to the decent O&D between HYD and LHR.

Quoting Azure (Reply 80):
It is not what I have read elsewhere.

It is what I have experienced personally, having lived in AMS for over a decade and interacting with my numerous Surinamese mates.



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 85, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
I still think Skyteam is likely as DL will keep with the JV either way. That is a far more profitable route sharing than will happen even within an alliance. Hence the strategy of expansion to smaller Indian cities for EY/9W. I also see huge value in Skyteam due to the Chinese partners.

Maybe. I definitely see SkyTeam as in 9W's best interests. I just think EY complicates the issue. Is 9W in SkyTeam good for EY (beyond, obviously, ROI)? If part of the idea is to get DL to connect people over AUH, how does Jet in SkyTeam advance that?


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