Andrensn From New Zealand, joined Jun 2012, 112 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 14241 times:
With aircraft such as the SAAB 340 and the Beech 1900 becoming older and less efficient is there currently a need for a new aircraft or series of aircrafts in the 19-40 seater market. I feel that unless a manufacturer is able to create a plane to replace aging aircraft of this size many routes and airlines around the globe will cease to exist soon.
Also how many passenger aircraft seating between 19 and 40 PAX are in service globally and how bigger market really is this???
JoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2289 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14103 times:
The need is definitely there, though the numbers may not be to very large OEM's liking.
Attempts to replace turbo-prop oldies has been rather disappointing so far, I guess the big OEM's simply don't see this as profitable enough, and others will say that ATR still offers the fantastic 42-600 and that plane is not selling on droves.
But I always had a feeling that the ATR42 is simply too much of a plane for certain required missions. Still wiping my tears over the 328 demise, what a fantastic little performer, but they did not survive either.
So let's see if someone will be brave enough to tackle this market niche.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 12150 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13976 times:
In my opinion the market is there for a ~35 seat STOL frame capable of operating within RFFS Cat 3 requirements and from Code 1 runways - those with declared distances of 799m or less. Much of the original 35 seat market has ceased to exist and what is left focuses around this niche, where there will be a significant void over the coming 10 years.
In other words, a Dash 8-100/200 and Do328 replacement will be required for remote/island operations like Wideroe. If you are currently using a J-41, Saab 340 or EMB-120 then you don't need such a STOL aircraft and the best replacement is most likely the ATR 72 or, if demand is low, the ATR 42 - both offer better performance.
I wouldn't rule out a reintroduction of the Q200 by Viking, it's less costly and risky than a clean sheet design.
drgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 822 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 13417 times:
As the largest operator of Dash 8-100s with 36 aircraft, Jazz has indicated that it would be interested in a new 37-seat aircraft but I don't think that's enough of a commitment to justify the launch of a new model. On the small capacity end of the range, the Twin Otter is now being built once again by Viking Aircraft That's a 19-seater
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 12150 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 12878 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6): Viking owns the type certificates for the DHC-1 through -7 only, not the Dash 8.
Bombardier stated they have no intention to return to the Q200 market size, but it doesn't take a giant leap of the imagination to consider that they would sell the type or license production to someone who would. There is no competition between a Q200 size aircraft and any current Bombardier products, so unless they have something planned for the future it would be another revenue stream.
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macsog6 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12670 times:
With Beech dropping out of the jet business, would they consider putting the B1900D back into production after updating it? The C model faced pax dislike due to the low cabin ceiling, but the D model, whilst a bit awkward looking, was nice to fly.
Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
francoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 4358 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 11936 times:
Quoting gr09 (Reply 5): At the bottom of the range (19 passengers) there should be a new version of L-410 soon.
The LET 410 is a great little aircraft. Very underrated due to its Soviet roots, but a new version equipped with recognizably named equipment and engines would hopefully muster more interest in the west.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
The L410 project was initiated based on a demand from Russia looking for an An-2 replacement and Aeroflot was it's biggest customer but the plane itself was designed and manufactured in Czechoslovakia.
I also with it would sell better in the West, let's see how successful the L410NG will be.
AirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2266 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10451 times:
One problem is that everyone has become obsessed with regional jets, thus when countries want to start or reboot their aviation industry, it's the overcrowded RJ market they target. An-148, Mitsubishi MRJ, the Superjet, the ARJ-21, the larger C series etc. Even India is targetting a new RJ.
If one of them had decided to produce an all new 30-40 seater prop, they'd have a whole segment to themselves. Not massive sales, but steady sales and a good way to build up a customer base. After all Embraer worked their way up from small props, and it worked well for them!
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
JoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 6345 posts, RR: 33
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10183 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
Viking owns the type certificates for the DHC-1 through -7 only, not the Dash 8.
I would be willing to be that BBD would sell the rights for the 100/200/300.
Quoting macsog6 (Reply 10): With Beech dropping out of the jet business, would they consider putting the B1900D back into production after updating it? The C model faced pax dislike due to the low cabin ceiling, but the D model, whilst a bit awkward looking, was nice to fly.
They still make the King Air, and there is some commonality there so I would venture that it's possible.
One problem is that these turbo props last forever, and there are so many out there...though fewer every year.
At some point, the used supply will shrink enough for new planes to be worthwhile.
Another problem is the price of fuel. People will only pay so much money to fly on a little plane and the CASM is just low enough to make it pay.
freeze3192 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10174 times:
The CommutAir President/Owner recently spoke at an RAA conference and mentioned this very subject:
Quote: Asked about using out-of-production aircraft, Sullivan noted that those in the CommutAir fleet “have had about 30,000 hours of operation, so they’re pretty early in their life cycle”. That does not stop him from wanting a more modern replacement though. “I could use one now. I would be delighted to hear that someone was going to produce a 30-50 seat turboprop with modern technology, materials, and maintenance schedules. We haven’t counted out the ATR 42, but we don’t like the idea of just a single source.”
I think Bombardier would do very well with an updated Q200/Q300 with new engines and avionics. There was a thread a few months back about them considering starting the line back up again, but I think someone claimed that the tooling was destroyed. Who knows. Either way, there's a market for a new 19-50 seat turboprop. Just takes a manufacturer to realize it.
"A passenger bets his life that his pilot is a worthy heir to an ancient tradition of excellence and professionalism."
If PWC cant uprate the PT6A further, Im sure they would offer the PW118 which powers the EMB120 still.
Quoting francoflier (Reply 12): The LET 410 is a great little aircraft. Very underrated due to its Soviet roots, but a new version equipped with recognizably named equipment and engines would hopefully muster more interest in the west.
Quoting drgmobile (Reply 4): As the largest operator of Dash 8-100s with 36 aircraft, Jazz has indicated that it would be interested in a new 37-seat aircraft but I don't think that's enough of a commitment to justify the launch of a new model. On the small capacity end of the range, the Twin Otter is now being built once again by Viking Aircraft That's a 19-seater
Its an interesting conundrum for Jazz. Q400's are coming in, but as CRJ replacements. The aircraft is far too large for many of the routes.
The main issue I think is that these types are generally operated by second tier carriers like 8P and Hawkair in YVR for example, who dont have the money to buy new metal. They are already operating hand me downs, so when there are no more left Im not sure what they will do. 8P's 1900C's are 28 years old, and the "new" Saab's which replaced the Shorts (which were not much younger and already largely out of service...) are not far behind as early c/n's. Theres no way they can afford a new RUAG 228 or an ATR.
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: BBD has a rebuild program for the Dash-8 http://www.bombardier.ca/en/aerospac...ses/details?docID=0901260d800c2ab8 "Bombardier Commercial Aircraft has
: That kicks the ball further down the road, but then what? I know in theory it gives the aircraft 50% more life, but most are likely to be withdrawn w
: Meant to add the L410 has operated in the UK with a couple of carriers now for a while with little negative result.
: I believe that this is the biggest problem. The larger carriers are more interested in the ATR/Q400 (UA, AC, QF, NZ etc) and while they do operate sm
: How big is the supply of Dash 8/J41s/SF340s/ATR42s/D328Props/E120s and even B1900/J31&J32s/D228Prop on the used aircraft market? I know in the la
: There must be a glut at the moment because nobody is ordering them. It's easy to say you'd like some new aircraft...but all it takes is one order to
: If that were the case, they wouldn't have shut down the line
: I've been working in aviation in third world countries for the last ~6 years or so. Anytime an airline or charter operator acquires something "new" t
: They would be thrilled to make their aircraft. They stopped building them because customers stopped buying them. If customer decide they want them ag
: There is the DHC6-400, it seats 20. YLWbased
: Perhaps long term, but Bombardier have made it very clear that for now the Q200/300 line is closed and will remain that way for the foreseeable futur
: One UK company that jumps to mind is Loganair. With a fleet of SAAB 340s they will need replacing an there isn't a need to jump to anything larger so
: They have a small fleet of Do 328s - this is a contender, it's still a younger aircraft than the Saabs. Otherwise I suspect the ATR 42 would be their
: All of the Colgan/Mesaba Saabs that were retired must be available if someone really wanted them.
: If my information is correct, there are only about two Saab 340B+ aircraft in storage. They were built between 1994 and 1999. The Saab 340B was built
: How about a small freighter that's a twin engine/ prop that could be use as a Beech 99 replacement. I know many people here say pages don't care, but
: I has sounded to me like any reoffer of the 200/300 would be essentially a shrink of the Q400. And generally, shrinks suck. They advertise the Q400 a
: All it takes is a large enough order and BBD could have the jigs dusted off in no time. They certainly aren't going to do it on spec. The already shu
: There isn't and hasn't been a replacement for the Beech 1900. The "new" aircraft offered by Viking isn't new, its 40 plus years old with a glass cockp
: You're right on all counts...and all it takes is orders from airlines...which isn't happening. Beach probably would have little trouble restarting th
: The ATR-42 fills this void if an airline really needs something under 60 seats. I don't think we'll ever see a 19 seater again with the new weight req
: I'd like to see Embraer produce a prop similar to their 123. Offer it in 20, 35, and 50 seat variants. It could be heavily based on the current ERJ-13
: That program is great for the airlines that have the A/C. But what does the that do for the airline that is looking for new A/C to replace old and ti
: Wasn´t there a rumor that Saab wants to enter the regional market again ?
: New turboprops have good operating costs but seemingly they cannot be built cheaply enough; ownership costs sink a lot of potential deals. A company c
: As mentioned, the Q's are getting a life extension, which will keep them flying for at least another decade...and there's nothing saying they couldn'
: This is my question exactly, The airline I work for, the regional division QantasLink, Fly to a destination called Lord Howe Island, Now, they have t
: A service life extension, to me, means 'keeping it flying'. Bombardier's initial, 2009 description of their Q100 program, however, sounded like a str
: And very few ATR-42s have been sold in the past few years. Virtually all recent orders have been for the ATR-72. That's a good indication that the ma
: It actually means quite a bit more than that...more like keep it flying as if it was designed from the outset with the extended service life expectan
: Piedmont is not going to replace their Dash 8 fleet. It's already down to 1/3 the size that it was when you factor in the Allegheny Airlines fleet si
: The lack of engine parts is one of the reasons the DC-3 is starting to diminish in numbers. Some have been converted to turbo props. If you want to c
: I see two gaps in the turboprop market, but not enough of a gap to pay for new development. In part as the current aircraft have kept growing to cut t
: The problem is that the AT4 has almost identical operating costs as the AT7. Therefore the operators that might consider buying new turboprops (the r
: And that is the issue. The short hop US market that funded the development of small turboprops. Now we see people hiring limos instead of dealing wit
: I know this may be wishful thinking, but what about a Civilian version of the V-22 Osprey? Can carry 24-30 passengers. Modern engines. Can takeoff fro
: I put a bottle of whisky on a prohibitive CSAM stopping that from happening, but it would be a really cool concept.