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Hawaiian 777 Order/lease Is Coming Soon?!  
User currently offlinejdflyvc10 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 82 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 27682 times:

Bula!

Was at the FJ A330-200 event last night at LAX. Great new product, Biz class you want row 1, and Economy seats/VOD is super! FIJI Airways has a wonderful new product!

After the open house, the boys and I hit the IN-N-OUT next to 24R. Two words "Animal Fries". This aviation honk, like us, started chatting about planes after he heard our conversation. He told us he was a mechanic for HA at HNL and was plane spotting on the west coast.

Then from nowhere came, "did you hear about Hawaiians lease for 777?" Huh, what... no. "YA, six are going to be leased, with the 1st arriving by the end of the year for the new international expansion" he said. "I thought Zander release that information already, because we had Boeing guys at the shop right before I left".

We did find hard to believe, but HA is making "BANK" on the northwest Pacific, one never knows.

Vanuinui vinaka ki na siga ni kua


A Day Without Sunshine Is Like....NIGHT!
138 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9855 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 27588 times:

I find this very hard to believe as HA already has the A350 on order. If it was actually true, I'm sure this news would have been known/published by now.

A388


User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 27479 times:

Not going to get my hopes up, but this could actually make a lot of sense for them. It's very believable. They could feel that 2017 is too long for the capabilities the A358 will offer them. They have 6 A358s on order. They could simply lease these 777s for 3-4 years, or incorporate into their long term fleet strategy, possibly accelerating 767 retirements or converting them to A332 orders. Or just taking them all.


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 27319 times:

Quoting jdflyvc10 (Thread starter):
Hawaiian 777 Order/lease Is Coming Soon?!

Highly unlikely.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12573 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 27164 times:
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I think there are three options here:

1 - it's not happening.
2 - ha ha ha, pull the other one.
3 - oink oink flap, is that a flying pig I just saw?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6240 posts, RR: 31
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 26890 times:
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This makes absolutely no sense. Maybe one for a specific route, like LA going for 5 A340s for very particular routes they needed to fly nonstop, but 6 777s on an airline with the network size of HA and A350s on order? Not gonna happen. That mechanic was having some fun.

User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 26799 times:

Uh, this makes far too much sense to simply dismiss like an outlandish practical joke...

Not saying its going to happen or I often believe these employee stories, but there are ample reasons to do it. Aircraft with 50+ more seats for profitable Asian routes and longer range instead of waiting 4-5 years for it.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31060 posts, RR: 87
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 26666 times:
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Quoting A388 (Reply 1):
I find this very hard to believe as HA already has the A350 on order. If it was actually true, I'm sure this news would have been known/published by now.

If HA is leasing, then it could be interim lift until the A350s arrive.


User currently offlinemcoatc From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 196 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 26478 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 2):
They have 6 A358s on order. They could simply lease these 777s for 3-4 years, or incorporate into their long term fleet strategy, possibly accelerating 767 retirements or converting them to A332 orders. Or just taking them all.

I highly doubt Boeing would be interested in a 3-4 year lease of new frames. What other than the 772ER would HA be interested in? The 77W is a beast and a massive upguage in capacity, and I cannot see them needing the 77L.

There is no way Boeing is going to short-term lease new 772's because they're not really in demand now, let alone 5 years from now. That's 6 fairly new birds that have to be placed again in 5 years, when most carriers are going to be dumping theirs. I could see this being placement of used frames, but then again why wouldn't they just go back to Airbus and get their hands on more A332's?

I cannot see them wanting to replace a 763 with a 772, that's a lot more weight you're carrying around. Then again, I don't run HA, so what do I know.


User currently offlineBeachBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 26452 times:

I think he was joking.

Zander was the CEO of AQ just before Banmiller who liquidated it. Dunkerley is the current HA CEO.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31060 posts, RR: 87
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 26384 times:
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Quoting mcoatc (Reply 8):
I highly doubt Boeing would be interested in a 3-4 year lease of new frames.

Boeing does not typically lease airplanes directly to customers.

As to commercial lessors who do, ALC has 10 777-300ERs on recent order, of which one is going to KL. So that leaves a possible nine available for other customers (assuming HA is interested in a 777-300ER).


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9855 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 26305 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Quoting A388 (Reply 1):
I find this very hard to believe as HA already has the A350 on order. If it was actually true, I'm sure this news would have been known/published by now.

If HA is leasing, then it could be interim lift until the A350s arrive.

I was thinking of that too but leasing brandnew 777's is expensive, especially when it's only for 3-4 years. Does HA want to lease such a big airplane just for 3-4 years? Keeping them permanent also means going away from their road to standardizing around Airbus so when looking at this, it also makes no sense to add another aircraft type to the fleet, especially a small fleet of 6 that is claimed here.

A388


User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 26264 times:

Didn't HA and Boeing get in some pissing match and that's why HA bought the A330's to begin with?

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 26266 times:
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The only reason Hawaiian would get 777 is to fly to Europe from HNL. They need them for the distance not the higher capacity from an A330-200. Hawaiian fits lots of seats into their A330-200, their First Class is 45 inch pitch like domestic First nothing like international J class.

User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2215 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 26090 times:

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 8):
There is no way Boeing is going to short-term lease new 772's because they're not really in demand now, let alone 5 years from now. That
Quoting A388 (Reply 11):
I was thinking of that too but leasing brandnew 777's is expensive

While I don't necessarily believe the rumor, leasing 777s doesn't necessarily mean they are brand new.


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6185 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 25647 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 15):

While I don't necessarily believe the rumor, leasing 777s doesn't necessarily mean they are brand new.

Won't EK have some 773 coming onto the market soon?



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineN821NW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 25365 times:

I have a really hard time believing this for the following reasons:
1. HA plan is to have a ALL Airbus long-haul fleet.
2. You would need to train a few crews to be certified for a sub-fleet that would only last 3-4 years, and that would be very expensive to do.
3. You would need to train a few mechanics to work on a sub-fleet that is only in service for 3-4 years, again this would very expensive to do.
4. With all the money HA would invest in a) leasing the 6 T7's b) training the crews c) training the mechanics would they even make a profit?

P.S.: You might want to take my statements with a grain of salt considering I'm a die hard Airbus fan   


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8412 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 25168 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 2):
Not going to get my hopes up, but this could actually make a lot of sense for them. It's very believable. They could feel that 2017 is too long for the capabilities the A358 will offer them.

So they won't convert to A359 because the A359 is too big, but they'll take 777's instead?  
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 6):
Not saying its going to happen or I often believe these employee stories, but there are ample reasons to do it. Aircraft with 50+ more seats for profitable Asian routes and longer range instead of waiting 4-5 years for it.

They won't have to wait 4-5 years if they convert to A359. See above  
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):
The only reason Hawaiian would get 777 is to fly to Europe from HNL.

Wouldn't the A359 do that better?

For such a small fleet it would make a lot more sense to lease A333's or even A346's if they were looking for interim capacity.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 25067 times:

This rumour is just that a rumour that is unfounded no matter the source. A mechanic? A pilot. A F/A. Any rumours coming from these guys are useless.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31060 posts, RR: 87
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 25003 times:
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Quoting N821NW (Reply 17):
You would need to train a few crews to be certified for a sub-fleet that would only last 3-4 years, and that would be very expensive to do.

They have to train the 767-300 pilots on the A330-200 and I expect also training some of them on the 777 would not be a great hardship.


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6185 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 24893 times:

Lets dream a little....a 773 in HA colors at LAX would be beautiful


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2215 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 24693 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 18):
They won't have to wait 4-5 years if they convert to A359. See above

If A350 production slots are full until 2017(note I do not know if that is true or not) converting their order to the A359 won't get them in their hands any faster. Even if slots are available an order conversion to something with an earlier EIS doesn't necessarily move them up in the production.

[Edited 2013-05-22 15:40:50]

User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 955 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 23781 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
The only reason Hawaiian would get 777 is to fly to Europe from HNL. They need them for the distance not the higher capacity from an A330-200. Hawaiian fits lots of seats into their A330-200, their First Class is 45 inch pitch like domestic First nothing like international J class.

You seriously do not believe that Europeans want to fly 16-17 hours to go to the beach do you?
During the off season its hard enough to convince people on the East Coast of the US to make the 10 hour journey to Hawaii when they could be in the Caribbean in 3-4 hours. If Europeans want a fun in the sun beach vacation I'm sure there are a lot of destinations that are a whole lot closer than a 16-17 hour nonstop flight to Hawaii.
And just out of curiosity how much would a round trip ticket in coach go for at today's current fuel prices on a flight like that? It most certainly would not be cheap because Hawaiian would need to charge enough to cover their own cost and then hope to make a profit on a plane that would have very few premium seats. There has been a lot of talk in previous threads on A.netters about one or two airlines wanting operating a Hawaii to Europe nonstop but how would they do a flight of this length profitably in a market that is dominated by cost conscious leisure travelers? And even if the airlines could do a flight like this profitably how would they convince passengers that Hawaii is worth the 16-17 hour flight. If you can't convince people of that it doesn't matter what type aircraft you use, you still are going to loosing money because your flying a plane filled with empty seats.


User currently offlinegdg9 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 22458 times:

why not try and lease some more A330s instead?

User currently offlineusxguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1022 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 21396 times:

who said HA would be looking at NEW planes... they could be getting USED planes... who knows.


xx
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8018 posts, RR: 5
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 21827 times:

I really doubt HA will get the 777--the plane is too big for the airline. I think in the longer term, HA will phase out their entire 767 fleet in favor of A330-200's and the A350XWB-800 (which I think will be used for very long flights to Europe like HNL-LHR and full-load flights between JFK and HNL).

User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 20773 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 25):
(which I think will be used for very long flights to Europe like HNL-LHR and full-load flights between JFK and HNL).

They are not going to fly direct to HNL from LHR as discussed before.

UK To HNL, Is There A Market? (by readytotaxi Jan 12 2013 in Civil Aviation)



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13161 posts, RR: 100
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 20951 times:
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This sounds like too much beer or other mind altering substance was consumed.

Quoting A388 (Reply 1):
I find this very hard to believe as HA already has the A350 on order.

And small A358s at that...

Quoting Polot (Reply 14):
While I don't necessarily believe the rumor, leasing 777s doesn't necessarily mean they are brand new.

We've found a home for EK's used 773s! (non-ER)   

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
So they won't convert to A359 because the A359 is too big, but they'll take 777's instead?

It works in the alternate universe.  
Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
For such a small fleet it would make a lot more sense to lease A333's or even A346's if they were looking for interim capacity.

   Or 767s or A332s... There are options. HA simply doesn't have the market for 777s.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 20454 times:

I would think at best it could be a bridge and short term. Why on earth would they want both 777s and A350s? I guess we will find out soon enough if its true. Would be cool to see them with 777s but im not gonna get my hopes up

User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 20135 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
HA simply doesn't have the market for 777s.

Sure they do.

SYD and HND would be perfect for a 777.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinezotan From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 611 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 19891 times:

Not happening. There has been absolutely zero talk in the industry about this. People would have heard by now.

User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1607 posts, RR: 1
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 19750 times:

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 8):
The 77W is a beast and a massive upguage in capacity, and I cannot see them needing the 77L.

I am the first to admit that I'm no aviation expert, but the 77W seems much too large for Hawaiian's operations. What routes could they use the 77W on? Perhaps SYD? I think there's just too much capacity as it is on the LAX route. Perhaps they anticipate huge demand from China?

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 20):
Lets dream a little....a 773 in HA colors at LAX would be beautiful

I agree, it would be great to see a HA 77W! This is a rumor - wild as it may be - that I hope comes to fruition!


User currently offlineSchweigend From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 621 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 19392 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
If HA is leasing, then it could be interim lift until the A350s arrive.

.

Quoting Polot (Reply 14):
While I don't necessarily believe the rumor, leasing 777s doesn't necessarily mean they are brand new.

.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 29):
SYD and HND would be perfect for a 777.

.
I agree with all three of you. It is entirely plausible that HA might lease used 772ERs to fly Austral-Asian routes until the A350s arrive. But from whom?

And (as Stitch mentioned in reply 19) training crew who are already certified on the 767-300 is not a big leap.


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7073 posts, RR: 4
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 19144 times:

I too have a hard time believing this. The only thing which might be a possibilty that it is a short time lease till their A350s arrive.


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 18967 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 22):
You seriously do not believe that Europeans want to fly 16-17 hours to go to the beach do you?

Millions already do. Check the statistics.

Huge numbers of Europeans travel each year for tropical vacations in Bali, Malaysia, Thailand, the Maldives, Mauritius and the Seychelles.

In 2011, for example, the number of Europeans visiting Bali - which takes a minimum of 18 hours even if you live near a hub - was:

France: 111,542
UK: 107,795
Germany: 84,071

To illustrate the contrast, TOTAL visitor numbers for Tahiti are below 150,000 per year.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 22):
During the off season its hard enough to convince people on the East Coast of the US to make the 10 hour journey to Hawaii when they could be in the Caribbean in 3-4 hours. If Europeans want a fun in the sun beach vacation I'm sure there are a lot of destinations that are a whole lot closer than a 16-17 hour nonstop flight to Hawaii.

Yes, but that tells you all you need to know about the general ignorance of Americans about the world beyond their shores. It doesn't tell you anything about Europeans.

I would argue that:

1. American long-haul travel is far less well-developed due to much shorter annual leave entitlements (1-2 weeks versus 5+ for most Europeans).

2. If you asked Americans earning more than $60,000 per year the following questions, most would be unable to answer correctly:

a) Which of the following tourist destinations has a Royal Palace and a Royal Mausoleum - Jamaica or Hawaii?

b) Which of the following beach destinations offers the opportunity to visit a live, erupting volcano - Jamaica or Hawaii?

c) Which of the following has a major tourist destination which is a significant location in the history of the USA - Jamaica or Hawaii?

It's just how Americans develop. They don't access media with any significant overseas content in the way that, say, New Zealanders and Indians read newspapers with a deep global focus and use international websites like bbc.co.uk to source their news. The result is a fairly homogenous pattern of ignorance about the world beyond the US mainland, which is why President Obama has to minimise his Hawaiian upbringing and why almost nobody in the USA knows that the Iolani Palace in Honolulu had electricity before the White House, or that Hawaii only ended up a US state as the culmination of a process which began with US-backed rebels overthrowing the legitimate Hawaiian government.

I suspect that more Germans than Americans would get question c) about Pearl Harbor correct. And I suspect that more citizens of EVERY other nationality could get questions a) b) and c) correct in the departure lounge of Honolulu Airport than Americans.

My point is not to belittle the USA or American people - I love them both. It's just to explain that American people's long-haul travel habits are remarkably underdeveloped compared with their European peers, and just because they equate a sandpit in Aruba to Lanikai or Hanalei Bay means nothing.

Europeans already do travel long-haul for tropical vacations.

Do I believe that Hawaiian will buy the 777? Actually, probably not. But some of their Japanese markets and their Sydney market would probably both be more profitable if operated by a 777-300ER.

[Edited 2013-05-22 22:45:36]

User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5590 posts, RR: 29
Reply 35, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 18736 times:

Wow. A rumor of HA getting 777's turns into an "ignorant Americans" diatribe. Knock me over with a feather.  

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinesaloman From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 18598 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 34):
My point is not to belittle the USA or American people

You did a poor job of expressing your point if that wasn't its intent. Nor did you anywhere address the fact that the previous thread on the topic includes the number of 45,552 UK visitors to Hawaii each year - hardly enough to justify an ULH route that has ample NA connection possibilities. But I guess that's not as much fun as a theory based on generalizations and stereotypes!


User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4853 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 18467 times:

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 32):
It is entirely plausible that HA might lease used 772ERs to fly Austral-Asian routes until the A350s arrive. But from whom?

Since the rumored buy/lease did not specify the model, could it be connected with this? .....

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...india-boeing-idUSBRE94E09220130515


Jives with the bit about the "Boeing guys"...    .



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineHNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 18416 times:

As do many of the posts here, I suspect this is another employee rumor which it seems like many of us associated with the airline industry relish in speculating about. On the other hand, it is relatively easy to build a business case for such speculation.

Consider that the president of HA came from BA and has his roots in European aviation. And, he has made no secret of the fact that he would like to see HA in Europe and with the right code shares there is enough traffic between the combination of Germany and Great Britain to support three to four flights a week.

HA has ordered the A-358 and it appears that Airbus may not build it. HA could go for the A-359, but like the B-777W it is probably too much airplane for HA to Europe, the eastern U.S. or even Asia. And, it would appear that the recent order for 16 A-321 NEO's could easily free up enough of the wide body fleet for Asia and eastern U.S. expansion by right sizing many of the existing services from the West Coast.

Now if you can buy that, the only issue remaining is how to provide limited non-stop services to and from Europe. Now if there were a few used B-777-200 ER's available at a good price, it just might make sense to pick them up and drop the A-350 order. As someone pointed out previously, 767 crew transition would be relatively easy and HA has nearly two decades experience with the type. I believe I read recently that Singapore is getting ready to dispose of a half dozen B-777-200ER's (please correct me if I'm wrong). These would be well maintained aircraft, probably low cycles, at a cost that would be considerably less than A-359's and could serve HA on very long haul services for many years to come.

Now that I've said all that, I think I've convinced myself this might not be a bad strategy "IF" HA really intends to serve Europe. I still think it is a rumor...but who knows?



Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 18395 times:

Quoting jdflyvc10 (Thread starter):
He told us he was a mechanic for HA at HNL and was plane spotting on the west coast.

Hahaha, yeah sure, and I remember the rumours spread by an other "HA mechanic", that HA wanted to get rid of the A330s ASAP. We had a tread about this nonsense some month ago.



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1966 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 17238 times:




My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineHNLPointShoot From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 17212 times:

Quoting BeachBoy (Reply 9):
I think he was joking.

Zander was the CEO of AQ just before Banmiller who liquidated it. Dunkerley is the current HA CEO.
This. The "mechanic" in question was probably messing around.


User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2125 posts, RR: 3
Reply 42, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 16854 times:

Quoting jdflyvc10 (Thread starter):
This aviation honk, like us, started chatting about planes after he heard our conversation. He told us he was a mechanic for HA at HNL and was plane spotting on the west coast.

You really believe someone that randomly approaches you in a park? If so, I'll be in Los Angeles soon. Hopefully you'll be there because I have a very wealthy relative in Nigeria that's looking to give away his wealth. If you just give me $5,000 my relative will give you $25.5 million in oil money.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13612 posts, RR: 62
Reply 43, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 15700 times:
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Quoting jdflyvc10 (Thread starter):
HA is making "BANK" on the northwest Pacific

Not really, sorry.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineJerseyFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 641 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15136 times:

AI are leasing out some 77Ls. Will they have 6 left after that?

These could be excellent interim lift before the 358s arrive for direct flights to Europe.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8412 posts, RR: 10
Reply 45, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15117 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 34):
My point is not to belittle the USA or American people - I love them both. It's just to explain that American people's long-haul travel habits are remarkably underdeveloped compared with their European peers, and just because they equate a sandpit in Aruba to Lanikai or Hanalei Bay means nothing.

I do get your point but your questions were a little too ridiculous and your post may have lost some credibility.
But I agree that American's leisure long haul travel habits are very, well not long haul at all   And a lot of it stems from the lack of vacation time and money. Despite popular believe most Americans have a lot less disposable income than Europeans do. Factor that against lack of mandatory vacation time, including school vacations, and it's easy to explain why American's don't stray too far from home.

Quoting koruman (Reply 34):
Do I believe that Hawaiian will buy the 777? Actually, probably not. But some of their Japanese markets and their Sydney market would probably both be more profitable if operated by a 777-300ER.

   Which is why I believe that they will convert to the A359 sooner or later. And they're just getting started in China.

Quoting saloman (Reply 36):
You did a poor job of expressing your point if that wasn't its intent. Nor did you anywhere address the fact that the previous thread on the topic includes the number of 45,552 UK visitors to Hawaii each year

He did make his point if you get past the initial part  
His point was that Europeans do travel 14 hours to go on vacation. 45K annual visitors to Hawaii without any advertising, non-stop flights, and more importantly without any charter operators in the market is quite impressive if you ask me. As he pointed out, Hawaii is competing with many other destinations that have far greater penetration in the European market so there needs to be a concerted effort to sell Hawaii in Europe, which until now has been non-existent.


User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1622 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15002 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 37):
Since the rumored buy/lease did not specify the model, could it be connected with this? .....http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...india-boeing-idUSBRE94E09220130515

I couldn't help thinking about AI's 77L reading this thread. Guess they haven't found a home yet?

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 38):
HA has ordered the A-358 and it appears that Airbus may not build it

IIRC, Airbus still has more orders for the A358 than Boeing has delivered 77L's. There are people here at A-net who believe it won't get build, but Airbus still officially plans to EIS it in 2016. Could very well be delayed, but even if this would be the case and HA does need interim lift, why not A330s? The reason HA hasn't converted its A350 order to -900s is because it's too big, and the 777 is about the same size is the A359...



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlineaztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 583 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 14915 times:

While when I first read this my first opinion was no way. Upon more reflection could HA use a 777 on their higher density SYD flights and then augment the flights with higher cargo capacity?

What is the percentage of cargo ops HA does for the islands versus others like FX, UPS and Atlas?

Lastly, the only thing I could see is that HA wants to expand to Europe and while they do have the 358 on order, could they be worried about any production delay's or problems. I only state this after seeing what Boeing has gone through with the 787 and the problems that airlines had with the grounding. HA could convert the 358 to 330's and accelerate the retirement of some of the 767's.

I still think this is just conjecture on the part of the mechanic in HNL.

Quoting koruman (Reply 34):

c) Which of the following has a major tourist destination which is a significant location in the history of the USA - Jamaica or Hawaii?

Well this is a loaded question as you are correct about December 7, 1941 being a very pivotal date in the history of the US. Jamaica was also part of the Sugar Triangle and a very significant development to build the United States and establish a effected trade route to Europe. Then you also could consider the Privateers (pirates) use Jamaica as a base port to attack the Spanish and English fleets taking gold and silver back to Europe and splitting the profits with the fledgling country.


User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 955 posts, RR: 2
Reply 48, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 13336 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 45):
His point was that Europeans do travel 14 hours to go on vacation. 45K annual visitors to Hawaii without any advertising, non-stop flights, and more importantly without any charter operators in the market is quite impressive if you ask me.

There are millions of people living in the UK and only 45K visit Hawaii annually not very expressive. And if the UK to Hawaii market is so lucrative why is it that no airline even offers at least one weekly nonstop between any point in UK to Hawaii? And to put it in perspective ill you the number that you gave 45K and although there are more than 1 million people living in UK I'll use the number 1 million as a demonstration. If you subtract 1 million from 45K you still have 955,000. Now take into account that there are millions of people living in the UK and only 45,000 out of millions visited Hawaii and that will show you that the market that you call impressive is extremely small to the point that it's almost nonexistent, 45,000 people spread out over a 52 week calendar year does not represent a large market.


User currently offlinesaloman From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 12442 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 45):
45K annual visitors to Hawaii without any advertising, non-stop flights, and more importantly without any charter operators in the market is quite impressive if you ask me.

I'd admit that that number was higher than I expected and is rather impressive, but the point is that it still likely won't warrant the cost of an ultra long-haul flight. Especially when there are countless connection possibilities throughout North America on countless airlines.


User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4853 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 12003 times:

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 46):
I couldn't help thinking about AI's 77L reading this thread. Guess they haven't found a home yet?

Guess they haven't if they were seeking Boeing's help in placing those. Should they manage to sell/lease six to seven frames, then 1 or 2 might find VVIP roles with the government...which AI refused to comment on, according to this.....

http://skift.com/2013/05/02/boeing-p...range-passenger-jet-dubbed-777-8x/

Quote:
"Air India has announced plans to sell 5 777-200LR’s and one industry source said some or all could end up being acquired by the government for VIP transport. Air India declined comment."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinejmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3283 posts, RR: 15
Reply 51, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11475 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 29):

Sure they do.

SYD and HND would be perfect for a 777.

   Not given how expensive they would be. The 332s adequately and efficiently serve both SYD & HND.



.......
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8412 posts, RR: 10
Reply 52, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11382 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 48):
There are millions of people living in the UK and only 45K visit Hawaii annually not very expressive. And if the UK to Hawaii market is so lucrative why is it that no airline even offers at least one weekly nonstop between any point in UK to Hawaii?

It doesn't matter how many people there are in the UK. 45,000 annually is still quite impressive when you consider that one litterall has to go out of one's way to buy a vacation to Hawaii. And no one said it's a lucrative market. It's a leisure market just like countless other long haul leisure markets.

Quoting saloman (Reply 49):
I'd admit that that number was higher than I expected and is rather impressive, but the point is that it still likely won't warrant the cost of an ultra long-haul flight. Especially when there are countless connection possibilities throughout North America on countless airlines.

But you're missing an important factor. HA is essentially an arm of the Hawaii tourism board. They may not make money on the flight but they'll make it somewhere else. If they start a non-stop route to the UK I am sure it will be heavily subsidized by the tourism board of both countries and other interested organizations. That does not happen with one-stop routes.


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3656 posts, RR: 3
Reply 53, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11297 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
The only reason Hawaiian would get 777 is to fly to Europe from HNL.

I'm not convinced such a route would be economical. It's far too long and expensive when Europeans have plenty of closer options.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 22):
You seriously do not believe that Europeans want to fly 16-17 hours to go to the beach do you?
During the off season its hard enough to convince people on the East Coast of the US to make the 10 hour journey to Hawaii when they could be in the Caribbean in 3-4 hours. If Europeans want a fun in the sun beach vacation I'm sure there are a lot of destinations that are a whole lot closer than a 16-17 hour nonstop flight to Hawaii.

I agree with you in principle, but the several times I've been to Hawaii, I have met plenty of Europeans there. Again, that doesn't speak to the economic viablity of non-stop service though.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 35):
Wow. A rumor of HA getting 777's turns into an "ignorant Americans" diatribe. Knock me over with a feather.

His posts usually contain anti-American vitriol. He occasionally makes good points, but it gets lost in the bigotry. Shame.

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 41):
This. The "mechanic" in question was probably messing around.

Or he wasn't an HA mechanic and he was just talking out of his behind.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 48):
There are millions of people living in the UK and only 45K visit Hawaii annually not very expressive.

I'm not sure about expressive, but it's not very impressive for sure. 123 people/day? Yeah, no.



PHX based
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7162 posts, RR: 57
Reply 54, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11305 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 34):
In 2011, for example, the number of Europeans visiting Bali - which takes a minimum of 18 hours even if you live near a hub - was:

And what proportion of these visiting Bali are on a multi-stop asian holiday or on student / 20's working visas to Australia?

Quoting saloman (Reply 36):
the number of 45,552 UK visitors to Hawaii each year

And what proportion of these are living in the US already?



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinesaloman From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 11131 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 52):
But you're missing an important factor. HA is essentially an arm of the Hawaii tourism board. They may not make money on the flight but they'll make it somewhere else. If they start a non-stop route to the UK I am sure it will be heavily subsidized by the tourism board of both countries and other interested organizations. That does not happen with one-stop routes.

I don't discount the possibility of subsidies making a non-stop a reality at some point, but the economics obviously have yet to line up which tells us something about the market as it stands. It doesn't seem like a stretch to point to the obvious cost issues of flying approximately 123 passengers per day over 7,000nm.


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2092 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10990 times:

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 8):
I highly doubt Boeing would be interested in a 3-4 year lease of new frames.

Where did it say they were new? They could be some ratty 772As on lease return.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
The only reason Hawaiian would get 777 is to fly to Europe from HNL.

Why only Europe? I thought their biggest foreign market is Japan.


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1607 posts, RR: 1
Reply 57, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10579 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 48):
There are millions of people living in the UK and only 45K visit Hawaii annually not very expressive.

Maybe the rest of the UK population is waiting for an airline like HA to come along! Europeans fly extraordinarily long distances to get to a beach - just look at S.E. Asia.


User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12573 posts, RR: 46
Reply 58, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10503 times:
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Quoting AADC10 (Reply 56):
They could be some ratty 772As on lease return.

I doubt they'd have the required range,



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7162 posts, RR: 57
Reply 59, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10423 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 57):
Europeans fly extraordinarily long distances to get to a beach - just look at S.E. Asia.

1 - As part of a multi-stop holiday.
2 - Many live in Asia already.
3 - Thailand has other attractions over and beyond the beach.
4 - BKK is heavily loss making for the majority of European carriers - AF / LH / AB / BA / SK all cut capacity in last few seasons.
5 - Thailand doesn't have CBP



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinewoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1031 posts, RR: 3
Reply 60, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10391 times:

Being a 40 yr visitor to Hawaii and now a part time resident (splitting time between Hawaii and Alaska) I must say that I run across so few Europeans that I cannot imagine that Hawaii to Europe non-stop service would be viable. Europeans have so many tropical destinations available to them that are so close and often sold via very affordable packages, coming to Hawaii for the sake of a tropical vacation just doesnt generate enough interest. The Europeans I do meet in Hawaii are often there as part of a larger extended trip, young people who are on a month(s) long backpack or other travelers who are visiting Hawaii as part of a larger US vacation. I have friends who live in Denmark who visit Alaska most summers and I have been trying to get them to come to Hawaii and they have been resistant. Its SO far, such long flights and its expensive compared to package vacations in the Caribbean, Spanish or French Riviera or even destinations in the Indian Ocean and Middle East.

User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3656 posts, RR: 3
Reply 61, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10112 times:

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 60):
Its SO far, such long flights and its expensive compared to package vacations in the Caribbean, Spanish or French Riviera or even destinations in the Indian Ocean and Middle East.

Not to mention, there are very few ways to get to Hawaii from Europe without an overnight somewhere in the states as almost all Hawaii bound flights depart before the European flights arrive.



PHX based
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 62, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10051 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 54):
And what proportion of these visiting Bali are on a multi-stop asian holiday or on student / 20's working visas to Australia?

Very low, in terms of students and travelers to Australia, apart from UK and Irish nationals.

Multi-stops are far more common, but mainly because there are no direct flights to Bali from Europe - passengers have to route via somewhere else.

I first visited Bali in 1980, when I was a child in the UK and my parents booked a package holiday with "Oriental Magic".

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 60):
Being a 40 yr visitor to Hawaii and now a part time resident (splitting time between Hawaii and Alaska) I must say that I run across so few Europeans that I cannot imagine that Hawaii to Europe non-stop service would be viable.

With respect, you're applying your American paradigms to Europeans, and it's not valid.

My in-laws in Europe, whose income is probably $70,000 per year as retirees, have just vacationed in Namibia. My own parents, who live in England, are in their early seventies and have just vacationed on a cruise in southeast Asia, and leave in 3 weeks for a trip to Australia and Mexico. In September they're going to Mauritius.

My earlier posts seemed condescending, for which I apologise.

But if you take British peope as an example, ones with family income in excess of $150,000 per year have around a 70% likelihood each year of vacationing in a long-haul destination.

And when you get to doctors, lawyers etc, in the family income over $250,000 demographic, they are significantly more likely to choose to take a beach holiday 10+ hours away (Caribbean, Indian Ocean, southeast Asia) than they are to take a short-haul beach holiday to Spain, Greece, Portugal, Italy or Turkey.

In the UK it is considered more socially appropriate for a professional to vacation in Barbados than Spain. There's just no comparable social trends in the USA with respect to long-haul tourism. Their American peers say 'we're going to Aruba because it's closer than Hawaii". But British people happily fly six or seven hours extra - and often 12 hours - to go to a more distant tropical island destination.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 63, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9834 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 48):
And if the UK to Hawaii market is so lucrative why is it that no airline even offers at least one weekly nonstop between any point in UK to Hawaii?

You raise an interesting point about the demographics of long-haul flights for a predominantly leisure market. And again, without wishing to demonise either side, it's important to acknowledge the differences in buying habits between Americans and pretty much everyone else.

Americans, for complex reasons (which include shorter paid leave) tend to prefer shorter-haul vacations than Europeans/ Australians / New Zealanders. And they have a huge domestic aviation market in which there is an unwritten deal: lowish fares in return for industry-trailing levels of service. The things Europeans and Australians associate with LCCs and charter carriers - no IFE, no catering, no included baggage - are the accepted norm in the USA.

As I have argued elsewhere, this acts as a huge obstacle to Europeans vactioning in Hawaii at present, because the European demographic groups who do long-haul Economy class travel simply won't accept long sectors of a 20 hour journey in LCC conditions, which is what UA, DL, US and AA inflict upon them to get between the US mainland and Hawaii.

But the two stumbling blocks to long-haul leisure flights are the cost of fuel and the ability to derive high-enough yields.

At which point I would refer you to how Virgin Atlantic makes big profits on its flights to the Caribbean from the UK.

Basically, the model is this.

1) Frequency is not daily.
2) The largest viable aircraft with the biggest economies of scale are used.
3) 15% of seats are lie-flat Business Class, at four times the economy fare, and these are not comped to elite frequent flyers.
4) 20% of seats are Premium Economy class, at double the Economy fare, with included champagne upon boarding, baggage, IFE, liquor, food and 38 inch pitch and 21 inch seat width, again, not comped to elites.
5) 65% of seats are Economy class, with 31 inch pitch, 17.5 inch width, and included meals, ice-cream, drinks, IFE and baggage.

This could not be more different to the US mainland-Hawaii market. I repeat, 35% of the seats are sold - not gifted to elites - at double or quadruple the Economy Class fare as Business Class and Premium Economy class.

In contrast, if you fly United Airlines Chicago-Honolulu - and I often have - there are only two main options. First Class is a big seat, lousy food and drink, no IFE and massively increases the fare. And Economy is the same as a European LCC carrier's short-haul product, but for an eight hour flight.

I don't think that the 777-200LR has the operating economics to make LGW-HNL profitable. I do, however, wonder whether Hawaiian Airlines or Virgin Atlantic could make money by operating HNL-JFK-LHR as a daily flight, or even HNL-LAX-LHR.

The problem is that Hawaiian's onboard product is wrong for that market - no lie-flat beds or Premium Economy class.


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2626 posts, RR: 5
Reply 64, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9408 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting A388 (Reply 11):
I was thinking of that too but leasing brandnew 777's is expensive

Who said anything about brand new 777s? They could very well be used 'A' or 'B' market frames which some airlines are withdrawing from use. The 777-200ER wouldn't be such a massive size increment over the A330-200.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
So they won't convert to A359 because the A359 is too big, but they'll take 777's instead?

They could be taking the 777-200 or 777-200ER, which is a few metres shorter than the A350-900.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 40):

That looks magnificent   



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3942 posts, RR: 28
Reply 65, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9346 times:

I think this thread is silly... but I'll bite. ASSUMING there is plausibility in this rumor any 777 would be to complement the 332, 321 and dwindling 767 fleet. Everyone seems to be hung up on the issue of the 777 being temporary. If the 358 really does get shelved, there could perhaps be a business case to acquire another type to fill the need HAL has for the 358. But only as a replacement, not as a supplement to bridge the gap. If 358 does get shelved... HAL would have a few options I would imagine, like being able to walk away from the commitment, take the 359, or cancel with compensation. That said... the 777 could end up being a 358 replacement that could be acquired cheaper and sooner. IF HAL found the need for a 777, it would be the 777LR. It seems that HAL is acquiring the 358 for its range and not necessarily the capacity, which IMO could be filled with the 333.

I would caution however, the folks thinking it would be "cheap" to bring on the 777 because HAL currently operates the 767. In order for HAL to operate the 777 it would require monumental planning, training for multiple work groups, parts supply etc... I think it's far more expensive than people realize. HAL is a small airline, so bringing on a fleet of even 6 airframes of a new type would be a massive undertaking.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5590 posts, RR: 29
Reply 66, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9304 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 62):
With respect, you're applying your American paradigms to Europeans, and it's not valid.

My in-laws in Europe, whose income is probably $70,000 per year as retirees, have just vacationed in Namibia. My own parents, who live in England, are in their early seventies and have just vacationed on a cruise in southeast Asia, and leave in 3 weeks for a trip to Australia and Mexico. In September they're going to Mauritius.

I'll have to tell my retired, 70-something in-laws in Seattle that their recent trips to the South Pacific, Central America, Portugal, and Spain are their imagination. After all, they're American.  

It's really hard to get through your posts because instead of just explaining what a "European" would want, you have to denigrate American travel habits, American aviation, and in the case of one person, denigrate someone's viewpoint as if they are disqualified by being an American.

Like another poster said, the message gets lost in the .... other stuff.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinen901wa From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 465 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9249 times:

I wonder who the Mech was? Bula'ia?   (He's a Hawaiian comedian) If Hawaiian did decide to start using the 777, I suspect that they could do what they did with the 767 parts and MTC and even more like the A330, and use Deltas MTC for parts and programs to help speed things up and to save on cost on the MTC side.

[Edited 2013-05-23 23:55:26]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 68, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9250 times:
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Quoting 777STL (Reply 53):
I'm not convinced such a route would be economical. It's far too long and expensive when Europeans have plenty of closer options.

But it needn't be just UK (or Europe)-HNL.

It would be an extremely pleasant way to get from the UK to NZ or even Australia, with a great stopover in one direction or both and maybe it could work as easily from, say, AMS or FRA.

So Hawaiian could get two bites at the cherry - those going to HNL and those going onward - and while Australia/NZ is not a growth market from the UK it is still a strong one, and there may be people who would prefer this alternative.

In the old days I flew BOAC several times NZ-UK on their trans-Pacific flights. That was then, this is now, but Hawaii is still one of the great tourist destinations.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 69, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9147 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 68):

But it needn't be just UK (or Europe)-HNL.

It would be an extremely pleasant way to get from the UK to NZ or even Australia, with a great stopover in one direction or both and maybe it could work as easily from, say, AMS or FRA.

That is an EXCELLENT point.

I've thought about their developing trans-pacific connectivity, but i'd forgotten to put two and two together within this European lens.

It's extremely intriguing. Perhaps in the last several years they have seen this theoretical dynamic come to fruition before their eyes, connecting many points in the western US to SYD (no doubt helping to grow SYD into a nearly 3000 seat/week market), and now Auckland / Brisbane. They have an extreme luxury to be very particular with their pricing for US-Oceania traffic. In summer (north hemisphere), pick the low hanging fruit with California families on busy, high yielding summer vacation traffic. During slower Hawaiian vacation periods, compete more aggressively down under. Go with the flow.

HNL would be a perfect transit point for UK-NZ. Australia... a bit further out of the way than the hefty and formidable competition in this market, but nothing competitive pricing couldn't fix. Nothing like having the most fertile ultra long haul markets on earth to pad your bottom line when necessary. I have to think HA's costs would not be prohibitive of them competing in such arena. Hawaii as a stopover certainly doesn't suck either.

They must also look at this industry and think if there is a legitimate business opportunity for them here, do it sooner than later. What's here today may not be here tomorrow, let alone 4-5 years down the line. 5 years ago, who thought Qantas would've struggled and ultimately jumped into bed with Emirates? We know Europe's been in the back of their mind for some time, why they've wanted and ordered the A358 (someday...) You think the Brit Dunkerly wouldn't want to make a valiant return to the isles on Pualani? The future doesn't always wait.

"We are studying traffic from Europe to Hawaii and, hopefully, five years from now, the number of Europeans in Hawaii will be sufficient to justify operating flights nonstop from Hawaii to Europe," said Hawaiian Airlines' Mark Dunkerley.

Do I think London-HNL could work on O/D alone? No, not really. Surely not daily. London- Hawaii, Auckland, Sydney, Tahiti... You've got a different story.

[Edited 2013-05-24 00:14:46]

[Edited 2013-05-24 00:23:09]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinePassedV1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8907 times:

The 767 is a completely different type from the 777...the amount of training to go from a 767 to a 777 is the same as going from a 767 to an A330. At least for pilots...there is no difference.

Also, pilot contract would not allow HA to ASSIGN 767 pilots to 777, so even if there were a credit, HA would not be able to count on it, as pilots would be allowed to bid, and they would also be coming from the A330 and the 717.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 71, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8551 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 63):
Americans, for complex reasons (which include shorter paid leave) tend to prefer shorter-haul vacations than Europeans/ Australians / New Zealanders.

Perhaps because some of the best beaches are closer to - or within - US territory?

Missing from the debate is that (a) Britain is a tiny, crowded island with mostly inclement weather and it's a long way to anywhere with decent year-round weather (b) some of the tropical beaches in Australia may be unswimmable for half the year - I wouldn't go in the water at Cairns or Darwin in the (southern) summer and (c) NZ is Britain with a reverse weather pattern. I get out of NZ every July to somewhere hot and given a choice between Fiji and, say, Langkawi, I'll pick the further destination, if only for the food.

US citizens have Florida, the Caribbean islands (admittedly a variable feast) the wonderful beaches of Mexico and, for some, Hawaii, all within hailing distance. The nearest to Britain is the Costa Brava, Blackpool with a Spanish accent, and too chilly for me in winter.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 69):
HNL would be a perfect transit point for UK-NZ. Australia... a bit further out of the way than the hefty and formidable competition in this market, but nothing competitive pricing couldn't fix.

The BOAC flights were routed to SYD not to AKL - LHR-JFK-SFO-HNL-NAN-SYD. New Zealand pax transferred to another BOAC flight NAN-AKL. From memory, the transfer at NAN on the return was a few hours and we were given dinner at a nearby hotel while we waited for the aircraft from SYD to arrive. Same-same at SFO - BOAC checked through pax into a motel for a few hours so we didn't arrive in New York before sparrow fart.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 72, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8110 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 71):
Perhaps because some of the best beaches are closer to - or within - US territory?
Quoting mariner (Reply 71):
US citizens have Florida, the Caribbean islands (admittedly a variable feast) the wonderful beaches of Mexico and, for some, Hawaii, all within hailing distance. The nearest to Britain is the Costa Brava, Blackpool with a Spanish accent, and too chilly for me in winter.

But again, it depends upon whether you are looking for a wallow in a sandpit or wish to add other dimensions to a beach vacation.

If you consider Spain's Costa del Sol, within an easy distance there is the Alhambra at Granada, the Alcazar in Seville, the Great Mosque (now cathedral) of Cordoba and Cadiz, each of which is a jewel of global significance. Not just Marbella for the vacuous rich and Torremolinos for the vacuous poor.

That's why I argue that Hawaii is worth travelling to for even East Coast Americans with the time, because there is the Iolani Palace, the Bishop Museum, Nu'uanu Pali, the Royal Mauseleum, the Volcanoes National Park, etc etc. I live in Australia, yet I'm a Patron of the Bishop Museum because I recognise it as the supreme museum of Polynesian history, and as a New Zealander that is important to me. Sadly, vast numbers of people seem unaware of that or indifferent to it, and instead say "Aruba's closer and it has beaches too. Let's go there".

And the "they have the world in their own country" argument may apply, but it reflects little credit on people who act upon such notions. Europe's passport-free Schengen Area takes in the fjords of Norway, the beaches of Spain, the castles of France and the ski slopes of Switzerland. But people still bother to get passports and to travel beyond the Area.

82 million Germans between them have 60 million passports. In contrast, of the 315 million Americans only 115 million have passports, and 90 million of those have never used them to travel anywhere other than Mexico or Canada.

That is a matter of free choice, and good luck to them. But it means that you cannot extrapolate from American travel patterns (wherein people flying to a beach from East of the Rockies will go to Florida, the Caribbean or Mexico rather than Hawaii) and apply them to Europeans, because their tastes and practices are so different.

Not better, different.

And there is no reason why Hawaii should not covet those Europeans who already fly to Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, the Madives, Mauritius or the Seychelles for a vacation. Quite the reverse. If they make no effort to compete for those European long-haul leisure markets, then they are fools.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 73, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8046 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 72):
But again, it depends upon whether you are looking for a wallow in a sandpit or wish to add other dimensions to a beach vacation.

If you consider Spain's Costa del Sol, within an easy distance there is the Alhambra at Granada, the Alcazar in Seville, the Great Mosque (now cathedral) of Cordoba and Cadiz, each of which is a jewel of global significance. Not just Marbella for the vacuous rich and Torremolinos for the vacuous poor.

There is wonderful historical context in Mexico. I fell in love with Mexico City when I first went there and saw things that I have never seen anywhere else, starting with, but not limited to, Xochimilco, and any of the colonial cities have their own delights.

Mostly I am interested in people, and many Mexicans were a wonderful surprise to me, friendly and fun, generous and welcoming.

Nor is the Caribbean necessarily just a "beach wallow" - I don't do beaches much, I get bored. Grand Case, the village gastronomique on (French) St. Martin is unique in my experience and the art gallery in Ponce, PR, blew me away.

Quoting koruman (Reply 72):
And the "they have the world in their own country" argument may apply, but it reflects little credit on people who act upon such notions.

I don't think it reflects "little credit" on anyone at all, I find that concept elitist. Know your own country first, especially when it presents, as the USA does, such astonishing variety, such amazing scale - and so many wonderful people.

Then again, some of my greatest times have been spent in outback Australia. It may not suit your style but I have been happier there than almost anywhere (again largely because of the people) and anyone who has the chance to epxlore it and doesn't is missing out big time.

Quoting koruman (Reply 72):
And there is no reason why Hawaii should not covet those Europeans who already fly to Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, the Madives, Mauritius or the Seychelles for a vacation.

But that was my point, so now I am really confused.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 74, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7949 times:

Mariner,
For once I'm agreeing with you!

My disagreement was with earlier posters who said "people don't even travel from the US East Coast to Hawaii, targeting Europe can't work because Europeans act upon the same priorities as Americans".

I even agree with you about Hawaii as a long-haul hub between Australia/NZ and UK/Europe. That would allow leisure yields to be balanced with Australia-Europe business traffic delivering higher yields.

I wrote this to a senior Air NZ executive a few years ago, explaining that his options for 777-200LRs would allow NZ and Virgin Australia to hub at Honolulu en route to the UK and Europe. I got a disappointing reply that their 777-200ER fleet didn't have the range, which seemed pretty irrelevant.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7921 times:

In the good old days HNL was a refueling point on many routes to Australia and other places. Yet I can see the use going from there to Europe in a non stop hop, EU-AUS without going through ME and Asia, perfect! And a week on Maui in the middle of the trip  

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 76, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7885 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 74):
Mariner,
For once I'm agreeing with you!

Ah, you had me fooled, K'man, and confused at the end.

Quoting koruman (Reply 74):
I wrote this to a senior Air NZ executive a few years ago, explaining that his options for 777-200LRs would allow NZ and Virgin Australia to hub at Honolulu en route to the UK and Europe.

You've lost me there, though. I think the concept works for Hawaiian as a US airline based in US territory. While I think there may be some through traffic, we're back to the old debate about the amount of traffic that there is from UK/Europe to Down Under, whereas Hawaiian would get feed from US mainland for the Oz/NZ sectors.

Not every concept works for every airline.

Although I got a grin from the idea that there might be a thick "Koruman" file at Air NZ, filled with your advice to the airline.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 77, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7836 times:

Mariner,
I do think that the Australia/NZ/UK markets to Hawaii remain incompletely tapped.

As an earlier poster wrote, in the days before Trans-Pacific range aircraft tended to refuel at HNL, and lots of people from those three countries (and others) grew to love to take Hawaiian stopovers.

Trans-Pacific range ended that - the 743 and 744 - and Australia and New Zealand ended up under-serviced, which Jetstar and Hawaiian are now rectifying. They were under-serviced because Qantas and Air NZ elected to minimise seat volume to inflate yields - prices in Business Class SYD/AKL-HNL have for years until recently been as high as for flights from those ports to LAX.

As a young worker in Auckland in the mid-90s I had a secretary whose annual highlight was going for a fortnight with the girls to Hawaii. Every single year. More recently, since Jetstar lowered the fare levels to HNL I have had increasing numbers of Australian friends and colleagues taking trips to Hawaii, even for long weekends and stag and hen trips.

Volumes from Australia to Hawaii in 2004 were around 40% of what they had been two decades earlier. But my argument is that that was due to absurd fare levels.

But the UK and Europe also used to have significantly higher volumes of traffic to Hawaii in the 1980s. And I suspect that once convenient one-stop services with acceptable service levels (included food, drinks, IFE and luggage in Economy Class plus Premium Economy and a small lie-flat Business cabin) are available, volumes will increase massively.

I understand that most American travellers are willing to trade those "luxuries" for supposedly low fares on the 5.5 hour LAX-HNL and 8 hour ORD-HNL sectors. Problem is, Europeans who have already been on the go for 9-15 hours to get there are absolutely not prepared to forego food, drink, IFE and luggage on those sectors, and for them it's a deal-breaker.

And if and when an airline comes along that can get them to Hawaii in decent conditions of comfort, they will go.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7791 times:

How many hours would the LHR-HNL leg be? IIRC the CPH-LAX leg of SK was about 11 hours?

User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 79, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7751 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 78):
How many hours would the LHR-HNL leg be?
HNL - LHR would be in the neighborhood of 14:00 to 14:30 either way. Long, but not intolerable.

HAL

P.S. I think the 777 rumor is someone's idea of a joke. Not going to happen.

[Edited 2013-05-25 01:57:54]


One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 80, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7682 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 78):
How many hours would the LHR-HNL leg be? IIRC the CPH-LAX leg of SK was about 11 hours?

As I wrote earlier, hundreds of thousands of British people vacation in Bali or Phuket or Penang in Southeast Asia every year. They route via SIN, KUL or BKK.

London - Honolulu = 7,237 miles
London - Singapore = 6,765 miles, plus Singapore - Bali = 1037 miles, total 7,802 miles.

In other words, London-Honolulu would be barely longer than the existing London-Singapore flight.

It's also 200 miles shorter than Qantas' flagship Sydney-Dubai flight.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7162 posts, RR: 57
Reply 81, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7644 times:

You cannot compare Europe to South East Asia to Europe to Hawaii.

Quoting koruman (Reply 62):
Very low, in terms of students and travelers to Australia, apart from UK and Irish nationals.

I would wager that a sizable proportion of European's visiting Bali are Irish and UK twenty somethings awaiting their tax back.... Lets not forget the massive Indonesian second and third generation in the Netherlands (400k according to wiki)


The only central Pacific island with large VFR to Europe is PPT - and look at how badly the airlines perform in that market considering there is so much government funded travel between them. (And yes, I went to French Polynesia, and understand that it's goddamned expensive!)

Quoting koruman (Reply 62):
Multi-stops are far more common, but mainly because there are no direct flights to Bali from Europe - passengers have to route via somewhere else.

What I mean by multi-stop is that Bali is one stop on a pan-asian holiday.

Quoting koruman (Reply 63):
At which point I would refer you to how Virgin Atlantic makes big profits on its flights to the Caribbean from the UK.

Virgin Atlantic and big profits? Since when...

There is also a large VFR element to the UK Caribbean traffic.

You could also mention the France to Caribbean market, which partly matches the VS model (AF offering a tiny J cabin and premium Y cabin, and fills the back of the aircraft in a high density seating config). Corsair simply fills their 744s to the gills with seat after seat and goes for the lowest possible CASM. France to Caribbean is predominately VFR and government funded travel.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 82, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7627 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 77):
Mariner,
I do think that the Australia/NZ/UK markets to Hawaii remain incompletely tapped.

I'm not sure why you're trying to sell HNL to me.

I like it there, I like what Hawaiian is doing there. I think it is a good market. Maybe it is an underserved - lower fare - market from Oz/NZ but of course, with low fares come lower service standards, your bete noir.

Quoting koruman (Reply 77):
I understand that most American travellers are willing to trade those "luxuries" for supposedly low fares on the 5.5 hour LAX-HNL and 8 hour ORD-HNL sectors. Problem is, Europeans who have already been on the go for 9-15 hours to get there are absolutely not prepared to forego food, drink, IFE and luggage on those sectors, and for them it's a deal-breaker.

I don't buy that at all. For starters, I think you have a bit of a fantasy view of European travel. Large numbers of Europeans are happy to travel long distances on charter or leisure airlines, which aren't exactly luxury travel - €15 for a hot meal on Condor - and several premium European airlines are losing hundreds of millions partly by providing the services you cherish.

mariner

[Edited 2013-05-25 03:04:32]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 83, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7492 times:
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Quoting jayunited (Reply 22):
The only reason Hawaiian would get 777 is to fly to Europe from HNL. They need them for the distance not the higher capacity from an A330-200. Hawaiian fits lots of seats into their A330-200, their First Class is 45 inch pitch like domestic First nothing like international J class.

You seriously do not believe that Europeans want to fly 16-17 hours to go to the beach do you?

Since its so outrageous that Hawaiian get 777 the only plausible reason is the need to fly to Europe. LHR to HNL would probably be 14 hours not 16. Polar routing over Seattle and southwest to HNL.


User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12573 posts, RR: 46
Reply 84, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7457 times:
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Quoting HAL (Reply 79):
HNL - LHR would be in the neighborhood of 14:00 to 14:30 either way. Long, but not intolerable.

Certainly not intolerable for a direct flight.

The pax numbers quoted earlier in this thread would, without expansion, be enough to support something like a 3-times weekly direct schedule. If HA do start non-stops to London, we will be very interested!

I write this in Mauritius as we prepare for the 12-hour flight home to London early tomorrow morning. On one of BA's 3-times weekly flights!   

Interestingly, the English couple in the next room to us are flying EK (twice daily, I think) - while their flights are a tad cheaper than ours, they have a seven-hour stop-over in Dubai. We'll be tucked up in bed Sunday night long before they even get anywhere near Heathrow.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7162 posts, RR: 57
Reply 85, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7459 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 84):
I write this in Mauritius

Oh stop name dropping!!!!!!  
Quoting scbriml (Reply 84):
The pax numbers quoted earlier in this thread

If they are accurate....



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 86, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7401 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 77):
I understand that most American travellers are willing to trade those "luxuries" for supposedly low fares on the 5.5 hour LAX-HNL and 8 hour ORD-HNL sectors. Problem is, Europeans who have already been on the go for 9-15 hours to get there are absolutely not prepared to forego food, drink, IFE and luggage on those sectors, and for them it's a deal-breaker.
Quoting mariner (Reply 82):
I don't buy that at all. For starters, I think you have a bit of a fantasy view of European travel. Large numbers of Europeans are happy to travel long distances on charter or leisure airlines, which aren't exactly luxury travel - €15 for a hot meal on Condor - and several premium European airlines are losing hundreds of millions partly by providing the services you cherish.

Mariner, no-one is arguing that the Condor end of the market is what Hawaiian or Hawaii could make a profit out of.

But let me give you an illustration, the example that just came up when I did a dummy booking on United's website:

UA123 dep London Heathrow 0755, arrive Washington Dulles 1120
Boeing 757, duration 8 hours 25 minutes.

connecting to:

UA145 dep Washington Dulles 1310, arrive Honolulu 1724
Boeing 767, duration 10 hours 14 minutes.

Total journey time = 20 hours, 29 minutes.

Now translate that into the actual experience, as experienced travellers like long-haul British people would:

1) Arrive Heathrow by 0530.
2) Board plane for Washington at 0700.
3) 8.5 hour flight to Washington, breakfast served 2 hours into the journey.
4) Arrive Washington 1120 (which is actually 430pm UK time).
5) Race to get through immigration and customs in time to board the flight to Honolulu around 1230pm.
6) No possible way to find the time to buy food or drinks on the ground at Washington. Realistically you have 70 minutes from touchdown to boarding, and in that time you need to wait to disembark, go through immigration, collect your bags and re-check them, then go through security again and go to the gate.
7) Board flight to Honolulu around 1230pm (which is 1730 London time).
8) Fly 10.5 hours to Honolulu, with no hot meals likely to be available, and you might not even get a snackbox if you are seated at the back of Economy class.
9) Arrive Honolulu at 1724, which is 0324 at your point of departure. You haven't had a hot meal for 18 hours.

This is a journey almost as long as London-Perth, Australia. But the difference is the astonishing discomfort, to the point virtually of starvation. My parents did the version via Chicago a couple of years ago and there was no food left for purchase by the time the trolleys arrived.

Now, this horrific journey on United Airlines sells for 1200 pounds.

In contrast, Virgin Atlantic offers Barbados as a long-haul alternative from London. On the same dates Economy Class sells for 570 pounds return, and Premium Economy sells for 1071 pounds return.

Now just contrast the journeys.

1200 pounds on United buys you a 20 hour journey in Economy Class in which you will probably not get fed for the final 18 hours of your journey, and quite likely won't even find food to purchase for the final 12 hours of the trip.

1171 pounds on Virgin Atlantic buys you a Premium Economy ticket with 38 inch seat pitch, 20 inch seat width, priority check-in, amenity pack, champagne when you board, included IFE, baggage and premium dining and wines with three course meals on real china.

It's an absolute no-brainer. A couple resident in England's southeast on a 2500 pound per person budget for flights and hotels would have to be intellectually impaired or certified masochists to select Hawaii over the West Indies.

But equally, if they pick Phuket or Bali and fly Singapore Airlines in Economy Class they will be fed and watered all the way to their destination, and they will pay significantly less than they would pay United to get them to Hawaii, even though Hawaii is less far away.

When you actually compare the actual journey experiences, you realise that Hawaii currently simply isn't a viable option.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8412 posts, RR: 10
Reply 87, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7386 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 77):
I do think that the Australia/NZ/UK markets to Hawaii remain incompletely tapped.

  
As well as Europe-Hawaii for reasons that I've already posted (lack of marketing, lack of non-stop flights, lots of other destinations). Simply put the incumbent carriers are just not interested in selling Europe-Hawaii because they can make just as much or more without the Hawaii leg. A non-stop to Europe would immediately add competition to this market and stimulate growth.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 81):
You cannot compare Europe to South East Asia to Europe to Hawaii.

Why not? They're both far from Europe and they're both excellent vacation destinations. I've vacationed in both places and althought SE Asia offers better value, Hawaii offers an experience you can't have anywhere else in the World. And don't let the flag next to my user name fool you, I am an European living in the US  
Quoting scbriml (Reply 84):
The pax numbers quoted earlier in this thread would, without expansion, be enough to support something like a 3-times weekly direct schedule. If HA do start non-stops to London, we will be very interested!

Those passenger numbers would likely double within a couple of years of a non-stop flight, cheaper package deals, and increased marketing in the European market. Most Europeans would much rather transit at LHR than at any US airport.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7395 times:

A 788 could probably do the LHR-HNL route, if the 777 is too big..230 seats or so. Imagine a 788 with the MTOW of the 789 or 787-10, that will be one long and thin aircraft. For me anything taking me past Asia or ME is worth paying more for.

User currently offlinebluesky73 From UK - England, joined Oct 2012, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7258 times:

Just got back from HNL and did the usual west coast stop offs. Would love an LHR/LGW - HNL direct flight. Maybe something for BA or Thompson to look at in future. Would happily sit in plane 14-15 hrs for a London- Hawaii trip. Sure this would open up new market for more Brits/ Europeans to visit Hawaii.

As for 777 for HA would be good to see but doubt


User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12573 posts, RR: 46
Reply 90, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7176 times:
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Quoting BestWestern (Reply 85):
Oh stop name dropping!!!!!!

Ha ha. It was germane to the discussion because it illustrated that a 12-hour non-stop in economy from London to Mauritius was not a problem for us, or the rest of the very nearly full 777.

We would give a non-stop to HNL some serious consideration. At the moment, for us Hawaii would have to be an add-on to a US west-coast vacation, making it a "holiday of a lifetime".



Favourite Tim Vine joke - "My wife and I went on the holiday of a lifetime. Tell you what, never again!"



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineHNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7068 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 82):
I understand that most American travellers are willing to trade those "luxuries" for supposedly low fares on the 5.5 hour LAX-HNL and 8 hour ORD-HNL sectors. Problem is, Europeans who have already been on the go for 9-15 hours to get there are absolutely not prepared to forego food, drink, IFE and luggage on those sectors, and for them it's a deal-breaker.

On HA they would not have to forego food or IFE.



Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5590 posts, RR: 29
Reply 92, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 6943 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 79):
P.S. I think the 777 rumor is someone's idea of a joke. Not going to happen.

Well, that seals it for me. It sounded odd anyhow.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 93, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6775 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 86):
But let me give you an illustration, the example that just came up when I did a dummy booking on United's website:

I still don't know what you're trying to prove - beyond the fact that there are no non-stops LHR-HNL, which I already know, nor would I chose your routing.

And I would expect Barbados to be cheaper because it is a shorter distance.

  

Quoting HNL-Jack" class="quote" target="_blank">HNL-Jack (Reply 91):
Quoting mariner (Reply 82):
I understand that most American travellers are willing to trade those "luxuries" for supposedly low fares on the 5.5 hour LAX-HNL and 8 hour ORD-HNL sectors. Problem is, Europeans who have already been on the go for 9-15 hours to get there are absolutely not prepared to forego food, drink, IFE and luggage on those sectors, and for them it's a deal-breaker.

I understand that it is a common a.net glitch, but for the record that statement attributed to me and to which you replied was actually said by Koruman.

But your answer is good.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 94, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6662 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 77):
Problem is, Europeans who have already been on the go for 9-15 hours to get there are absolutely not prepared to forego food, drink, IFE and luggage on those sectors, and for them it's a deal-breaker.

And if and when an airline comes along that can get them to Hawaii in decent conditions of comfort, they will go.

So despite knowingly traveling to a (what some would call) comparable destination to the Caribbean at approximately twice the price and twice the distance of economy travel, the real deal breaker is the lack of a scoop of glorified dog food on their American airline segment? You're also not paying any baggage fees on these flights, as they're part of your international itinerary.

Yes, it is smart to maximize your miles on the longer European segment for almost every reason, and there are ample options to do that. The vast majority of Europeans are not even aware of the realities of mainland-Hawaii travel, let alone going through this cost benefit analysis on the connecting flights, and even if they are do you suspect after all the investigating and planning of a Hawaiian vacation,when it comes time to book the actual flights, they discover they won't get free crap food on SFO-OGG and decide.. the hell with this!?

That's incredibly silly. Yes, a nonstop flight on a reasonably good airline would be a big selling point to try to drum up some more Hawaii interest in Europe, but the state of mediocre amenities on US airlines domestically is not impacting their vacation tastes in any statistically significant way. It's not a 'deal breaker'. If this were indeed the 'straw', there was never any deal to be had.

As Mariner says, you really underestimate the European propensity to travel to nice destinations in a mutually or exceedingly shitty manner to their American counterparts. I've flown ORD-Hawaii many times and there is along list of long flights and airlines ex-Europe I would prefer it to any day of the week. The kind of discerning traveler you're focusing on would likely be flying J/F as it is.

[Edited 2013-05-25 13:12:54]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 955 posts, RR: 2
Reply 95, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6491 times:

It is amazing reading this thread and how many people are defending Hawaii to Europe nonstop service and how Europeans say they are already use to long haul travel and Americans are not. Americans have been called ignorant our lifestyle has been disseminated by people who have no clue what they they are talking about. And while many Americans may not travel abroad as much as Europeans do it isn't because they can't or cant afford it as some have suggested it is because there is so much to see and so many hidden gems here in this country of ours and we spend a lot of money when we do go on vacation. While many of you from other countries talk about flying being use to flying long distances Americans are different we enjoy road trips the road trip is just as important as the destination. Some of you claim to know the history of this country and say that Americans do not I find those statements to be ridiculous and while you may know some history the most popular history of this country, it is only because you have visited popular tourist destinations but there is a lot more history to this country that you won't find highlighted in a must see must visit book inside your hotel room.
America is fill with lots of highlights including many pristine beached however many of the pristine beaches are not located on tourist maps. We may not travel 16 hours to go on vacation and the reason is we don't have to, there are 50 states in this country all are different, all are special and have hidden gems just waiting to be explored. And while my job has allowed me to travel the world most of it in first class, last year started a quest to visit all 50 states to explore my own country, and later this summer me and some friends are taking a road trip on historic Route 66 that starts here in Chicago and ends in LA. are we driving all the way to LA no we are not but we are going as far as Texas and a lot of the small towns along this route are supported by tourism dollars they are supported by simple Americans taking a road trip down memory lane. So while Europeans are more travel savvy than Americans and while you may visit the popular tourist destinations in America does not mean that you know more about our country or the history of our country than we do.

Having said that i'll get back to the original issue of this topic: there are people on here who suggest that a sizable market already exist between the UK and Hawaii. So for the sake of argument lets just remove all US airlines from the equation for this next question which no one seems to answer in stead gloss over.
If there is a sizable market as some would suggest between the UK or even Europe to Hawaii why isn't any European Airline flying the route? Many Europeans have pointed out the flaws in the onboard service that all US airlines provide on flights from the mainland to Hawaii. So why aren't Europeans airlines which have far better service jumping on this market? There are a few European airlines that fly from Europe to the Caribbean and Cancun and as it has been pointed out many many times on this thread many Europeans already travel hours to Bali,Thailand and Indonesia to for vacation so why aren't there any European airlines flying to Hawaii nonstop from Europe?


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 96, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6336 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 95):
so why aren't there any European airlines flying to Hawaii nonstop from Europe?

The issue is the same one which has seen Qantas and Air New Zealand drop their Honolulu - Los Angeles sectors: American cabotage laws.

Leisure flights command lower yields than ones with significant business markets, which is why LHR-SIN non-stop is viable but currently LHR-HNL is not, because the only aircraft with the range are inefficient: the 747-400ER is too big and the 777-200LR and A345 are not fuel-efficient enough.

LHR-HNL would be viable with a refuelling stop on an A330 or a 777-200ER, but that stop would almost certainly need to be in California for the two-sector flight from A to B to C to be viable, with all three trips for sale (i.e. A to B, A to C and B to C).

But the American government simply won't allow it for reasons of trade protection which actually do the US economy far more harm than good, because it diminishes European visitor numbers to Hawaii.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 94):
So despite knowingly traveling to a (what some would call) comparable destination to the Caribbean at approximately twice the price and twice the distance of economy travel, the real deal breaker is the lack of a scoop of glorified dog food on their American airline segment?

Precisely.

Here is a direct comparison of the 1000 pound Economy class from London to Hawaii via Washington against the 1000 pound slightly longer Economy class journey from London to Bali via Bangkok.

Option 1: Hawaii
Hour 1: Board the aircraft.
Hour 3: Breakfast on the United flight to Honolulu,
Hours 4-7: no further food on United.
Hours 8-10: madcap transit at Washington including passport control, baggage reclaim, customs, baggage recheck, no chance to buy food.
Hours 11-20: flight from Washington to Honolulu, no food or IFE unless food remains for sale. Laptop, iPad batteries flat by now.


Option2: Bali:
Hour 1: Board the aircraft
Hour 2: Afternoon Tea on the Thai flight to Bangkok.
Hour 6: Dinner on the Thai flight to Bangkok
Hour 9: Light breakfast on Thai flight to Bangkok
Hours 12-15: Leisurely transit at Bangkok Airport, no customs, immigration or baggage reclaim.
Hours 16-21: flight from Bangkok to Bali, morning tea and lunch service included. There is IFE throughout the Thai journey.

You can talk about "glorified dogfood" although it's absurd because Asian and Australian airlines serve good food. But more to the point, with the United option you get breakfast at around 0900 and then don't get any food whatsoever - including to purchase if you're seated in the rear of the aircraft - for the next EIGHTEEN HOURS of your life.

And yes, Europeans absolutely do know about it.

My aunt from Scotland visited her daughter an hour away from me in Australia at Easter. I went over one day for lunch, and part-way through asked her what her routing had been. Her answer: "we certainly didn't come via America. We've heard all about your parents' Journey Into Starvation going to Hawaii".

Europeans in the demographics Hawaii would want - including in Economy Class - enjoy the IFE and catering on the Asian and Middle Eastern carriers. So when the alternative is short-haul LCC service standards on a long-haul journey it antagonises and deters them.

And at present there is no airline equipped to address the problem. European carriers can't get the US mainland to Hawaii traffic rights. And Hawaiian has a single service standard on its fleet which suits mainland American visitors but is wrong for Europeans because there is no Premium Economy cabin and no proper Business Class product.

And as Virgin Atlantic has said several times, on their long-haul leisure flights the Premium Economy cabin is the most profitable one of all.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2215 posts, RR: 1
Reply 97, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6309 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 96):
And yes, Europeans absolutely do know about it.

My aunt from Scotland visited her daughter an hour away from me in Australia at Easter. I went over one day for lunch, and part-way through asked her what her routing had been. Her answer: "we certainly didn't come via America. We've heard all about your parents' Journey Into Starvation going to Hawaii".

Europeans in the demographics Hawaii would want - including in Economy Class - enjoy the IFE and catering on the Asian and Middle Eastern carriers. So when the alternative is short-haul LCC service standards on a long-haul journey it antagonises and deters them.

You are of course right. Whenever I think European traveler I think high class.


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User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 98, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6254 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 96):

Here is a direct comparison of the 1000 pound Economy class from London to Hawaii via Washington against the 1000 pound slightly longer Economy class journey from London to Bali via Bangkok.

etc etc .

I've never seen person say so little in so many words. When a problem that can be overcome by buying a sandwich at the airport is a deal breaker, you were never serious about going to Hawaii in the first place. Your doomsday scenario for the Dulles connection is very convenient for your cause, but unrealistic in most cases. Far more options connecting on the west coast. It's also very popular for these Europeans to make a stopover in LAX, SFO, LAS etc. Your anecdotal Aunt story also doesn't suffice as the end all be all to general European awareness of these issues.

[Edited 2013-05-25 19:20:23]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3656 posts, RR: 3
Reply 99, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6168 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 96):
My aunt from Scotland visited her daughter an hour away from me in Australia at Easter. I went over one day for lunch, and part-way through asked her what her routing had been. Her answer: "we certainly didn't come via America. We've heard all about your parents' Journey Into Starvation going to Hawaii".

I'd venture to guess you and your family's experience up in your ivory tower isn't indicative of all European or Australians as a whole.

Quoting koruman (Reply 96):
So when the alternative is short-haul LCC service standards on a long-haul journey it antagonises and deters them.

Oh really? And with long haul LCCs like Corsair, Thompson and Condor, Europeans practically invented the long haul LCC business model. Who do you think you're kidding here?

(How many people does Corsair manage to shove in a 744? Nearly 600? Sophisticated, indeed.)

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 94):
As Mariner says, you really underestimate the European propensity to travel to nice destinations in a mutually or exceedingly shitty manner to their American counterparts. I've flown ORD-Hawaii many times and there is along list of long flights and airlines ex-Europe I would prefer it to any day of the week. The kind of discerning traveler you're focusing on would likely be flying J/F as it is.

And I couldn't agree more. I know in koruman's mind, all American are knuckle dragging, mouth breathers that wouldn't know a good airline if it bit them in the ass, but the sad reality is that Europeans really *aren't* any more sophisticated than their American counterparts as evidence by their affinity for LCC carriers just as we Americans have.

I've flown Qantas and I've flown several of the so called premium European airlines - they really aren't that much different than US airlines in Economy. Same cheap booze, same scoop of dog food, similar uncomfortable seats. Hell, the last LH 744 I flew on didn't even have IFE.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 98):
I've never seen person say so little in so many words. When a problem that can be overcome by buying a sandwich at the airport is a deal breaker, you were never serious about going to Hawaii in the first place.

Pretty much. I've been to Hawaii twice in the past three years. If you're not living on the west coast, there really is no fun way to get to Hawaii - even in F, which we were in both times. If you're willing to put up with the journey to begin with and a sandwich is a deal breaker for you, well, that's ridiculous. And if you were that concerned with it to begin with, you would have ponied up for premium class. Afterall, Europeans would settle for nothing less, correct?



PHX based
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 100, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6173 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 96):
And Hawaiian has a single service standard on its fleet which suits mainland American visitors but is wrong for Europeans because there is no Premium Economy cabin and no proper Business Class product.

You've changed your tune, K'man:

US Majors- Who Is Considered One? (by stealth777 Oct 29 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Post #13 by Koruman: "Everyone seems to be forgetting Hawaiian, which after Continental abolished included meals is now the last US carrier meeting internationally accepted service standards of a full service carrier."

And Hawaiian's - complimentary/economy - meal service HNL-SYD may not be the greatest out there but it looks pretty good to me:

http://www.hawaiianairlines.com/services/in-flight-dining

Hawaii to Sydney

First Service
Salad with Water Chestnuts, Mandarin Oranges, Corn, Italian Dressing, Dinner Roll, Macadamia Nut Cluster
Choice of Bowtie Pasta with Marinara Sauce & Parmesan Cheese OR
BBQ Chicken with Tomato & Mango Salsa, Steamed Rice & Edamame

Second Service
Turkey & Swiss Sandwich
Dried Fruit & Nut Mix


I'd be happy - but I guess there's no pleasing some.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2215 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6157 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 96):
Here is a direct comparison of the 1000 pound Economy class from London to Hawaii via Washington against the 1000 pound slightly longer Economy class journey from London to Bali via Bangkok.

I didn't notice this earlier, but you might want to check again which journey is "slightly longer".


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 102, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6184 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 98):
When a problem that can be overcome by buying a sandwich at the airport is a deal breaker, you were never serious about going to Hawaii in the first place

Most options are like this: even the LAX option involves 100 minutes from landing from London to boarding for Honolulu, again in which passengers must clear immigration, reclaim bags, pass through customs, recheck bags, pass through security and run to the gate.

Anyone stopping to buy a sandwich en route would be intellectually impaired, or else be a risk-taker who doesn't mind having two weeks at LAX to finish the sandwich.

Most people who fly long-haul for a two or three week vacation have to get back to work the next day. A journey which is an ordeal is often a deal-breaker.

Incidentally, I personally think that it is an act of corporate self-harm for airlines in the USA to only provide their standard domestic product on flights between the mainland and Hawaii, even for American passengers.

Australia is the same size as the US mainland. And whereas short flights on Virgin Australia include fares without included catering and IFE, Trans-Continental flights include a hot meal, an ice-cream service and IFE in even the cheapest fares. Yet 5, 8, 9 and 10 hour flights on US airlines from the mainland to Hawaii don't, unless you fly on Hawaiian.

And then, of course, as I keep being told, no-one from east of the Rockies goes to Hawaii.

If you treat medium and long-haul passengers as if they were on a short-haul LCC, then you reap what you sew.

Quoting Polot (Reply 97):
You are of course right. Whenever I think European traveler I think high class.

Well, it's a feature of American aviation that all the legacy carriers offer the same (LCC) standards on any domestic route, even if it's 11 hours long.

So it's perhaps not surprising that you are happy to discount the entire European Economy Class long-haul leisure market as if it wanted to fly Thomas Cook or Corsair or Thomson Airways or Monarch, which are the European charter airlines to which you restricted your pictures as if all US airlines were Allegiant-equivalents.

I'm sure that Virgin Atlantic, Singapore Airlines, Emirates, Etihad and Thai Airways are grateful that their American peers are happy to surrender that entire market to them.

I went to Phuket three weeks ago. It was fascinating that there were two Russian aircraft on the ground, doing the 5,000 mile journey to Moscow and even Ekaterinberg.

Europeans will travel long-haul for a tropical vacation. Even Russians are far more likely to do so than Americans. And as long as the American attitude is "you can go and buy yourself a sandwich between flights, and if you aren't willing or able to do so, who cares?" then other markets will scoop up those armies of European long-haul leisure travellers.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 103, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6148 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 102):
Australia is the same size as the US mainland. And whereas short flights on Virgin Australia include fares without included catering and IFE, Trans-Continental flights include a hot meal, an ice-cream service and IFE in even the cheapest fares.

That's not so on Virgin Australia. The more expensive Flexi fares, yes, but Saver and Saver Lite SYD-PER no not include food or beverages (other than tea, coffee water) or IFE.

mariner

[Edited 2013-05-25 20:11:05]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 104, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6134 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 102):

Anyone stopping to buy a sandwich en route would be intellectually impaired, or else be a risk-taker who doesn't mind having two weeks at LAX to finish the sandwich.

Most people who fly long-haul for a two or three week vacation have to get back to work the next day. A journey which is an ordeal is often a deal-breaker.

Are you for real?

Quoting koruman (Reply 102):

Most options are like this: even the LAX option involves 100 minutes from landing from London to boarding for Honolulu, again in which passengers must clear immigration, reclaim bags, pass through customs, recheck bags, pass through security and run to the gate.

"The" LAX option? United and American both offer multiple evening departures to HNL. If you don't like a shorter connection, wait for the next flight.

If you take the first flight of the day to LAX, there is a plethora of long connections in LAX, including the full amenity Hawaiian A330 evening flight. Same for any of the neighbor islands.

Quoting koruman (Reply 102):

Incidentally, I personally think that it is an act of corporate self-harm for airlines in the USA to only provide their standard domestic product on flights between the mainland and Hawaii, even for American passengers.

You'd think, but they don't really care. You can almost always find better fares on Hawaiian or Alaska, which give better service. Majors don't care about Hawaii since they fill their planes up with award tickets and loyalists. If you're outside the west coast, you have to take a major as it is (unless you're creative, like me) , and they've certainly colluded to not care about quality on this market.

[Edited 2013-05-25 20:16:52]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2215 posts, RR: 1
Reply 105, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6127 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 102):
So it's perhaps not surprising that you are happy to discount the entire European Economy Class long-haul leisure market as if it wanted to fly Thomas Cook or Corsair or Thomson Airways or Monarch, which are the European charter airlines to which you restricted your pictures as if all US airlines were Allegiant-equivalents.

I'm well aware that not all European tourists travel like that. But for some reason you seem to think that Hawaii markets itself as some tourist destination for the ultra rich and the exclusive...when that is not the case at all. Hawaii would be more than happy to welcome Thomas Cook or Thomson or whoever- but even they (the airlines) recognize that the market between Europe and HNL is too small and the distances too large to make money with the current generation aircraft.

Singapore, Ethiad, Thai, Emirates and the likes make it work by carrying a significant amount of business travelers on the same plane with the European vacationer- Europe-HNL just doesn't have that.


User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 106, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6119 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 102):

I'm sure that Virgin Atlantic, Singapore Airlines, Emirates, Etihad and Thai Airways are grateful that their American peers are happy to surrender that entire market to them.
Quoting koruman (Reply 102):
And as long as the American attitude is "you can go and buy yourself a sandwich between flights, and if you aren't willing or able to do so, who cares?" then other markets will scoop up those armies of European long-haul leisure travellers.

Come on, this is a joke, right? You're not serious..



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 107, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6111 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 100):
You've changed your tune, K'man:

US Majors- Who Is Considered One? (by stealth777 Oct 29 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Post #13 by Koruman: "Everyone seems to be forgetting Hawaiian, which after Continental abolished included meals is now the last US carrier meeting internationally accepted service standards of a full service carrier."

And Hawaiian's - complimentary/economy - meal service HNL-SYD may not be the greatest out there but it looks pretty good to me:

No Mariner, you've misunderstood.

I'm not saying that Hawaiian's Economy product isn't good enough, not at all. It still is.

I'm saying that long-haul European leisure routes derive a significant proportion of their revenue from selling Premium Economy tickets at double the price of Economy ones, and that Hawaiian's current configuration wouldn't allow them to do so. That's all.

I think that Mark Dunkerley stands head and shoulders above every other US aviation executive, and is the only one who would be employable outside North America.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 99):
Pretty much. I've been to Hawaii twice in the past three years. If you're not living on the west coast, there really is no fun way to get to Hawaii - even in F, which we were in both times. If you're willing to put up with the journey to begin with and a sandwich is a deal breaker for you, well, that's ridiculous. And if you were that concerned with it to begin with, you would have ponied up for premium class. Afterall, Europeans would settle for nothing less, correct?

You have made my argument for me.

Sydney-Honolulu is the same distance as New York-Honolulu. Auckland-Honolulu is 50% further than LAX-HNL.

Yet the market has doubled in five years, with passengers flying over and past Fiji to go to Honolulu. And only one carrier deploys the American LCC service standard. And in spite of every prediction that Jetstar would replace its parent Qantas on SYD-HNL, Qantas continues to make big profits on the route because enough Australians - like Europeans - will pay a higher fare for a better travel experience, especially long-haul.

There are Australians who want a no-frills $1000 return SYD-HNL ticket for the 5,000 mile trip which is almsot identical to JFK-HNL. But statistics show that currently nearly 50% more are willing to pay Qantas or Hawaiian an extra $200 or more to have baggage, food, drink and IFE included in Economy Class than want a US domestic-standard no-frills product.

And to say "no-frills or pony up for First Class" is to gift away those 60% of Economy passengers who want frills with their fare. The majority who in Australia buy tickets to Hawaii from Qantas or Hawaiian rather than Jetstar.

I fly from Brisbane to Honolulu a lot: my second home is on Maui. Non-stop flights are marginally shorter than JFK-HNL, but I usually fly one-stop via Auckland.

It certainly isn't my experience that there is "no fun way" to get to Hawaii. Even when I fly in Economy - and I sometimes do - I watch a couple of first-run Hollywood movies and I enjoy the food and drink. My travelling partner in Business Class on Air NZ a couple of years ago heard the PA announcement of what the food in Economy was (Indian Butter Chicken and rice) and asked to have the economy meal instead of the Business Class one!


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 108, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6092 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 103):
That's not so on Virgin Australia. The more expensive Flexi fares, yes, but Saver and Saver Lite SYD-PER no not include food or beverages (other than tea, coffee water) or IFE.

Actually, you're wrong. Transcontinental flights to Perth get food and IFE.

http://www.virginaustralia.com/au/en...12/VA-MAJORENHANCEMENTS-TRANS-PER/

[Edited 2013-05-25 20:28:54]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 109, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6074 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 108):
Actually, you're wrong. Transcontinental flights to Perth get food and IFE.

Then you'd better tell Virgin Australia that their booking engine is wrong, because I had a dummy booking for late June SYD-PER open as I was making that post.

Flexi - included. Saver and Saver Lite - not included.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2215 posts, RR: 1
Reply 110, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6048 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 107):
There are Australians who want a no-frills $1000 return SYD-HNL ticket for the 5,000 mile trip which is almsot identical to JFK-HNL. But statistics show that currently nearly 50% more are willing to pay Qantas or Hawaiian an extra $200 or more to have baggage, food, drink and IFE included in Economy Class than want a US domestic-standard no-frills product.

Where are those statistics? If almost half of all passengers are willing to pay extra money for Qantas then how come QF only flies to HNL 3x weekly versus JQ's 5x weekly from SYD (plus their 2x weekly service to MEL)?


User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 111, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6030 times:

Koruman, you are having your cake and eating it to.

You are claiming European travelers are educated about all the pitfalls of getting to Hawaii, and have a very complete knowledge of these issues. At the same time, you keep making the case for how awful a United connection at Dulles is.

Well... why would the educated European airline consumers choose the worst option?? (despite the good IFE on the 764).

No, the European consumer with awareness about these issues would select SFO or LAX, enjoy 2 meal services in flight, ample connection time to HNL or the neighbor islands, and the opportunity to buy a meal/snack at the airport or onboard.

Not a deal-breaker in sight.

It doesn't make sense to assume the most educated consumers to choose the least desirable option, which is exact what you've been doing.

[Edited 2013-05-25 20:43:50]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 112, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6054 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 110):
Where are those statistics? If almost half of all passengers are willing to pay extra money for Qantas then how come QF only flies to HNL 3x weekly versus JQ's 5x weekly from SYD (plus their 2x weekly service to MEL)?

Sydney to Honolulu:
a) Full-service Economy with meals, IFE and included baggage
Hawaiian 7 x A330 weekly
Qantas 3 x 767 weekly

b) Buy On Board Economy with meals, IFE and baggage for purchase
Jetstar 5 x A330 weekly

Rest of Australia to Honolulu:
a) Full service: Hawaiian BNE-HNL 3-5 x 767 weekly
b) BOB: Jetstar MEL-HNL 2 x A330 weekly.

Do the math. At least 60% of Economy seats are full-service.

[Edited 2013-05-25 20:44:48]

User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3656 posts, RR: 3
Reply 113, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6003 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 107):
I fly from Brisbane to Honolulu a lot: my second home is on Maui. Non-stop flights are marginally shorter than JFK-HNL, but I usually fly one-stop via Auckland.

Respectfully, you've proven my point as well Koruman. Second home on Maui? Rarely flying economy? I'm guessing most Australians or Europeans don't routinely fly premium class to their second home on a tropical island, yeah?

If I'm losing you here, my point is this. You seem like you've done well for yourself Koruman, and I commend you for that. However, considering your socioeconomic status and the circles you likely run in, I don't think your qualified to make blanket assertions for the other "99%" of Europeans and Australians. In other words, I think you're a bit out of touch with what's going on in the world. Average Europeans don't routinely fly premium class on their own dime nor do they have multi-million dollar vacation homes on tropical islands thousands of miles from home. That lends me a bit of perspective as to why you think the way you do.

Quoting koruman (Reply 107):
And to say "no-frills or pony up for First Class" is to gift away those 60% of Economy passengers who want frills with their fare. The majority who in Australia buy tickets to Hawaii from Qantas or Hawaiian rather than Jetstar.

It's worth pointing out that Jetstar runs 5X/weekly SYD-HNL on larger A332s whereas QF runs 3X/weekly on smaller 763s. If more people prefer QF over Deathstar, one wonders why JS has a significantly higher share of the market than QF does.

Quoting koruman (Reply 107):
It certainly isn't my experience that there is "no fun way" to get to Hawaii. Even when I fly in Economy - and I sometimes do - I watch a couple of first-run Hollywood movies and I enjoy the food and drink.

I've never flown anything other than AA F on the 763 which is their international business hard product to the islands. Perhaps it's a matter of opinion, but considering where I live and the connections I have to make, even flying F, it's no walk in the park to LIH. That's more of a commentary on the journey itself rather the airline I fly. With two connections and associated layovers, it's nearly a 20 hour day transiting from STL-HNL-LIH, doorstep to doorstep.



PHX based
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5633 posts, RR: 5
Reply 114, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6000 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 72):
And the "they have the world in their own country" argument may apply, but it reflects little credit on people who act upon such notions

Well I guess I'm just yet another dumb stupid American and it reflects "little credit" on me   

In terms of amazing scenery and good times, I find it hard to go past the USA. I was discussing this very point with my father recently, and we agreed that what sets the USA apart is how cost effective and accessible it is. From Brisbane it is almost certainly more cost effective to visit the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, and then end with some time in San Francisco than go to the Bungle Bungles. As sad as it is, that's why I've never vacationed in Australia (other than Tasmania once)

Quoting mariner (Reply 73):
it presents, as the USA does, such astonishing variety, such amazing scale - and so many wonderful people

I'm with you 2000%

Quoting jayunited (Reply 95):

Thank you so much for this.

I have added you to my respected members list. I don't do this on the basis of one post, but your insights and detailed analysis of United is something that I really appreciate and respect, and then this post tipped it over the edge.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 95):
While many of you from other countries talk about flying being use to flying long distances Americans are different we enjoy road trips the road trip is just as important as the destination

This is true. While some might seek to belittle the American culture, I think you raise a good point. It is not that Americans are stupid, or lazy, or self-centered (although some are, just as some Australians, British, French, Japanese etc are)

As a young, urban Australian the thought of flying 24 hours is meaningless, I will gladly do it tomorrow, and not just because I'm an Anetter. My friends and acquaintances my age don't even have a concept of long-haul flying. Being born in contemporary urban Australia imbues in you the notion that spending 24 hours on a plane is as routine as commuting to work.

This isn't so everywhere, indeed IMHO it is something pretty unique to Australians and New Zealanders. I always roll my eyes when my family in Britain complain about the "long" flight to New York, which is under 7 hours 

The equivalent of the Australian "flying" culture is the American "driving" culture. While I would happily fly around the world, the thought of driving 15 hours is beyond me. I wouldn't do it. It's that simple. It sounds like a long, painful process. This is, of course, absurd, but it's because of my social conditioning*. Because of this I am not about to judge American people (certainly not tar 350 mn with a broad brush) because many people would choose to drive the 20 hours from New York to Miami rather than flying the 20 hours to Australia.



*note that throughout I have used the word "urban" in relation to myself. My girlfriend is from regional Australia, and she has a totally different concept of time and space. 20 hours in a car is nothing to her. This is just one of the manifestations of the MASSIVE urban-rural divide that exists in this country.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 81):
I would wager that a sizable proportion of European's visiting Bali are Irish and UK twenty somethings awaiting their tax back

This has been repeated ad nauseum through the thread, and until someone provides data I am going to respectfully disagree with you.

There is still a very large beach market to Langkawi, Thailand, and Bali from the UK (even as a standalone market, rather than as part of a wider tour), and the market is even larger from Germany and Scandinavia.

Quoting mariner (Reply 76):
I got a grin from the idea that there might be a thick "Koruman" file at Air NZ, filled with your advice to the airline

  

Koruman, I've probably said this before, but I love you and hate you. I have doubt that you're a decent guy but some of your opinions sometimes put me on edge 

[Edited 2013-05-25 21:00:10]


Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2215 posts, RR: 1
Reply 115, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5955 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 112):

That doesn't prove your point at all- you have no clue if the passengers are booking those Y seats for the service versus finding a competitive price (I just built a week long trip in late September/early October that was cheaper on HA than JQ  Wow! ) , schedule, availability, etc.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 116, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5938 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 114):
Well I guess I'm just yet another dumb stupid American and it reflects "little credit" on me   

In terms of amazing scenery and good times, I find it hard to go past the USA. I was discussing this very point with my father recently, and we agreed that what sets the USA apart is how cost effective and accessible it is. From Brisbane it is almost certainly more cost effective to visit the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, and then end with some time in San Francisco than go to the Bungle Bungles. As sad as it is, that's why I've never vacationed in Australia (other than Tasmania once)

I wasn't meaning to be antagonistic. I love visiting America, and I have a huge soft spot for Americans. I can't remember a year when I didn't go to the USA less than four times, between work and leisure.

My point was that people from different cultures and societies have different priorities about seeing their own country or new ones.

This is an aviation thread, and I was arguing that Europeans can and do fly past perfectly good beach resorts close to home to visit distant ones.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 81):
I would wager that a sizable proportion of European's visiting Bali are Irish and UK twenty somethings awaiting their tax back.... Lets not forget the massive Indonesian second and third generation in the Netherlands (400k according to wiki)

Computer says no.

Quoting koruman (Reply 34):
In 2011, for example, the number of Europeans visiting Bali - which takes a minimum of 18 hours even if you live near a hub - was:

France: 111,542
UK: 107,795
Germany: 84,071


As for the "400,000-strong Indonesian second generation in the Netherlands":

1. 60% are descendants of the 250,000 Dutch people who lived in the Dutch East Indies, or their partners/spouses/staff.

2. Almost all the others are Muslim Indonesians as opposed to Hindus from Bali.

The likelihood of either group choosing to vacation in Bali is probably lower than the general population, not higher. People of Muslim descent whose parents came from Java might do a VFR trip to Java. But Bali? I don't think so.

[Edited 2013-05-25 21:44:49]

User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5633 posts, RR: 5
Reply 117, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5887 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 110):
If almost half of all passengers are willing to pay extra money for Qantas then how come QF only flies to HNL 3x weekly

Don't let that fool you. On this I'm with Koruman, QF only being 3x has a lot more to do with internal politics within Qantas which I won't detail here (HNL has been discussed on a semi-regular basis in the Australian Aviation threads for the past 5 years) but, in short, QF could fly the route profitably, at a higher frequency and with an improved product if they had the heart to.

The fact they don't says a lot about Qantas (and their strategic priorities) and almost nothing about the market between Australia and Hawa'ii.

Quoting koruman (Reply 116):
I wasn't meaning to be antagonistic. I love visiting America, and I have a huge soft spot for Americans

I understood that you weren't which is why I added the "grin", and I'm sorry if I came over as antagonistic to you.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinerjm717 From Australia, joined May 2000, 87 posts, RR: 1
Reply 118, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5737 times:

I have been meaning to jump in here before a moderator somewhere locks the thread for being off topic.

On the 777 topic - ain't going to happen, period. Not new, and absolutely not used. Mark Dunkerly recently went on record as stating that HA won't be going down the used aircraft path while he is at the helm. In the past it has caused too many issues within the fleet in terms of commonality. 767s from lessors/LTU/Delta all with different specs and interior standards for both crew, psgrs and cargo makes for a bit of a fleet mess..

There are 2 more 332s arriving this year and 5 in 2014. While they will be used to start replacing 767s if a need for additional capacity is warranted they just keep the 767s a little longer, rather than invest in a different a/craft type.

Hawaiian has stated that they are primarily focussed on promoting travel to the state of Hawaii. having said that, they are now starting to see some serious through traffic from Australia and NZ to the US west coast. NZ has a particular appeal because they connect both directions, while SYD/BNE are mostly northbound connections.

The Aust-Europe market is a significant one. There are daily connections on QF/BA/EK/CX/SQ/TG.. hey, just about everyone, from SYD alone. If, and it could be an attractive if, HA can syphon some of that traffic then a nonstop from HNL to, say, the UK could indeed be viable even though it contradicts their current philosophy.

As for service comparisons, I have flown HA meny times to HNL as well as QF. Even when QF does inevitably upgrade the aircraft on the route, their soft product isn't even close. As for Jetstar? Don't start me please.. There is a reason HA is operating 10 flights per week ex SYD for now and again in Sep/Oct this year. After 8 years serving Sydney the word is getting out. That menu quoted above actually is nice food, and the fact they are daily makes it easy for travel agents to remember what days they fly.   

I'm far enough off topic for now - I'll let you guys continue...

R


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 119, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5679 times:

Quoting 777STL (Reply 113):
It's worth pointing out that Jetstar runs 5X/weekly SYD-HNL on larger A332s whereas QF runs 3X/weekly on smaller 763s. If more people prefer QF over Deathstar, one wonders why JS has a significantly higher share of the market than QF does.
Quoting Polot (Reply 110):
If almost half of all passengers are willing to pay extra money for Qantas then how come QF only flies to HNL 3x weekly versus JQ's 5x weekly from SYD (plus their 2x weekly service to MEL)?

Let me refine my earlier post:

a) Weekly full-service seats SYD-HNL
Qantas 3 x 767-300 = 3 x (25 Business + 204 Economy) = 75 Business + 612 Economy
Hawaiian 7 x A330-200 = 7 x (18 Business + 276 Economy) = 126 Business + 1932 Economy.

TOTAL FULL-SERVICE = 201 Business + 2544 Economy.

b) Weekly non-inclusive seats (Economy Buy on Board + pay for IFE and baggage)
Jetstar 5 x (38 Business + 265 Economy) = 190 Business + 1325 Economy.

TOTAL MARKET SEATS = 4,260 seats per week.
391 Business Class (9.2% of seats)
2544 full-service Economy
1325 LCC Economy.

The precise Economy breakdown is:

65.8% full-service.
34.2% unbundled.

So in other words, on this 5,066 mile sector you simply cannot say that the Australian public wants or chooses the same low service standards that the American public seems happy to accept for the Newark-Honolulu flight which is 4962 miles long.


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1367 posts, RR: 3
Reply 120, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5547 times:

Wow, for such a stupid rumor, we sure have a great thread going!

Quoting n901wa (Reply 67):
I suspect that they could do what they did with the 767 parts and MTC and even more like the A330, and use Deltas MTC for parts and programs to help speed things up and to save on cost on the MTC side.

Maybe. But then, maybe not. My company does all mainland MX for the HA 767 fleet, and it is very likely that if HAL were getting 777s, we'd under-bid the hell out of DL. We're also not short for 777 techs/experience either (since we do everything DL does and all the other variants they don't). Not saying that's how it would go for sure, but I wouldn't automatically assume that DL would get the job.

Quoting mariner (Reply 68):
It would be an extremely pleasant way to get from the UK to NZ or even Australia, with a great stopover in one direction or both and maybe it could work as easily from, say, AMS or FRA.


So Hawaiian could get two bites at the cherry - those going to HNL and those going onward - and while Australia/NZ is not a growth market from the UK it is still a strong one, and there may be people who would prefer this alternative.

Damn straight. This is a good point and shouldn't be discounted.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 70):
The 767 is a completely different type from the 777...the amount of training to go from a 767 to a 777 is the same as going from a 767 to an A330. At least for pilots...there is no difference.

It's not insurmountable. For flight ops, it is a common type rating, with just a class to get the certifications. Not to mention that HAL has an awful lot of ETOPS under their belt, and that's what would matter most WRT ops procedures and company SOPs.

Quoting mariner (Reply 71):
US citizens have Florida, the Caribbean islands (admittedly a variable feast) the wonderful beaches of Mexico and, for some, Hawaii, all within hailing distance. The nearest to Britain is the Costa Brava, Blackpool with a Spanish accent, and too chilly for me in winter.

Let's not forget CA! Where I grew up is identical to the UK WRT WX & topography, & where I now live in CA is different enough to feel like a vacation most of the time. Just Sayin, lol.

Quoting koruman (Reply 72):
I live in Australia, yet I'm a Patron of the Bishop Museum because I recognise it as the supreme museum of Polynesian history, and as a New Zealander that is important to me. Sadly, vast numbers of people seem unaware of that or indifferent to it, and instead say "Aruba's closer and it has beaches too. Let's go there".

I'm sure there's a lot of that here, but like you, we like to get out too. I'm fortunate in that my job sends me to Western Europe & the South Pacific once a month, but I'm sure a lot of us would do that given the means.

Quoting koruman (Reply 72):
82 million Germans between them have 60 million passports. In contrast, of the 315 million Americans only 115 million have passports, and 90 million of those have never used them to travel anywhere other than Mexico or Canada.

You can thank our *awesome* healthcare system for that one. No joke, if folks weren't paying out the ass for that, there'd be a lot more cash for things like elective travel. EU citizens are lucky to have it different (and should not feel bad about that either!), but I honestly think that's a big part of the difference.

Quoting mariner (Reply 73):
Mostly I am interested in people, and many Mexicans were a wonderful surprise to me, friendly and fun, generous and welcoming.

That's been my experience with going South of the Boarder too.

Quoting mariner (Reply 73):
I don't think it reflects "little credit" on anyone at all, I find that concept elitist. Know your own country first, especially when it presents, as the USA does, such astonishing variety, such amazing scale - and so many wonderful people.

I agree. Even within the EU, I would say the same. There are a lot of off the beaten path places in the UK that I've had a chance to get to, and get a "local" experience after repeated and regular visits that just aren't touristy enough to warrant a lot of attention from our side of the water. It's always been something I've enjoyed, and I'm sure a lot can be said for what we have going on here too.

Quoting mariner (Reply 73):

Then again, some of my greatest times have been spent in outback Australia. It may not suit your style but I have been happier there than almost anywhere (again largely because of the people) and anyone who has the chance to epxlore it and doesn't is missing out big time.

I lived in TX for about 6 years and had a very similar experience. I don't much align with the political tides there, but it was still a great time in my life for the same reasons you mention. I think this is a much a reason to get out and seek new horizons as anything else that might show up in a brochure.

Haven't had much of a chance to get to the outback, but I'm looking forward to a good deal more of that this and next years. Good to know it seems like a great place.

Quoting Polot (Reply 97):
You are of course right. Whenever I think European traveler I think high class.

Great post. 'Aint no one can squeeze the CASM out of a 777 like AF or KL, lol...



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5507 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
So they won't convert to A359 because the A359 is too big, but they'll take 777's instead?
[quote=koruman,reply=102]So it's perhaps not surprising that you are happy to discount the entire European Economy Class long-haul leisure market as if it wanted to fly Thomas Cook or Corsair or Thomson Airways or Monarch, which are the European charter airlines to which you restricted your pictures as if all US airlines were Allegiant-equivalents.

When you talk about Thomas Cook, Thomson and Monarch, you need to realize that the bulk of people flying them never bought a ticket with them. They buy an all-in holiday package which includes airfare. The cost of these packages are unbelievably low if you consider what is thrown in. People flying are often relatively low income families who can not even afford to take a holiday if they were living outside of Europe. Phuket is about the furthest these ULCCs fly (they are not even LCCs). As said, these are equivalent to Spirit and Allegiant. People who separately book their airfare, would go higher up in the value chain and choose EK, QR, EY, TG etc

One other interesting thing: I think Hawaii is about the only place EK can not reach. Otherwise the would fly 77Ws or A380s there with full IFE, good food and free booze there too...


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7162 posts, RR: 57
Reply 122, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5466 times:

120 posts, and not one statistic on visitors from the UK


http://files.hawaii.gov/dbedt/visito...ims/Country%20Quarterly%202012.pdf

46k brits arrived in Hawaii (All Islands) from all destinations last year.

Lets assume:

85% of those live in the UK (rest are UK passport holders living in other parts of the world)
90% went to Hawaii island. (rest to other islands)
Lets assume that 40% of those come from a London Catchment area (rest from cities more convenient to fly from other cities)

Thats only 39 pax per day from the London catchment area flying to HNL

No - Hawaiian aren't going to be leasing six 777's to capture 39 pax per day.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 123, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5437 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 122):
85% of those live in the UK (rest are UK passport holders living in other parts of the world)
90% went to Hawaii island. (rest to other islands)
Lets assume that 40% of those come from a London Catchment area (rest from cities more convenient to fly from other cities)

Firstly, I really doubt that 90% went to the Big Island. Somehow, I suspect that 80%+ went to Oahu.

Secondly, I suspect that 95%+ were UK residents: those of us living in Australia and NZ will use our Australian or NZ passports for easy re-entry when we return home.

Thirdly, 46,000 visitors equates to 884 per week, which would be 294 passengers on a 3 times weekly flight on a 789.

And that's before non-stop flights actually grow the market.

So the market is already just about big enough, but in the absence of direct flights is splintered. Qantas say that their sales to Manchester, Newcastle and Birmingham have quadrupled since the alliance with Emirates offered them as direct destinations, and presumably Honolulu would be no different.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7162 posts, RR: 57
Reply 124, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5379 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 123):
Secondly, I suspect that 95%+ were UK residents: those of us living in Australia and NZ will use our Australian or NZ passports for easy re-entry when we return home.

Very few of the UK pasengers to Hawaii flew on international flights. There are millions of UK residents living around the world, travelling on UK passports.

Quoting koruman (Reply 123):
Thirdly, 46,000 visitors equates to 884 per week, which would be 294 passengers on a 3 times weekly flight on a 789.

You just cant take all the pax. You have to discount those not flying to HNL, those not originating in the UK (we are in kind of agreement on the % this removes combined), for and those that Gatwick isn't attractive for.

Quoting koruman (Reply 123):
So the market is already just about big enough,

At 39 pax a day from LON to HNL, Its only big enough if you ignore reality.

Quoting koruman (Reply 123):
Qantas say that their sales to Manchester, Newcastle and Birmingham have quadrupled since the alliance with Emirates offered them as direct destinations, and presumably Honolulu would be no different.

But the overall Australia market has probably remained basically static, just that people are now on a QF coded flight - proving that people use regional airports, not just London.

Quoting koruman (Reply 123):
And that's before non-stop flights actually grow the market.

Non stop will grow the market, without question. Realistically, LGW will be a dead end for HA - with no connecting passengers, the stimulation will have to be dramatic.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7162 posts, RR: 57
Reply 125, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5357 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 123):
Secondly, I suspect that 95%+ were UK residents:

10% of UK nationals live abroad. 1.3m live in the US or Canada.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...th/brits_abroad/html/n_america.stm


BRITS ABROAD: THE TOP COUNTRIES
Country name Resident Britons
Australia 1,300,000
Spain 761,000
United States 678,000
Canada 603,000
Ireland 291,000
New Zealand 215,000
South Africa 212,000
France 200,000

It is more likely that UK residents living closer to Hawaii will visit there, than visitors further away.

[Edited 2013-05-26 06:12:39]


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 126, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5361 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 124):
Very few of the UK pasengers to Hawaii flew on international flights. There are millions of UK residents living around the world, travelling on UK passports.

Isn't that obvious?

The choice is to arrive on a US mainland - Hawaii domestic flight, or else circumnavigate the globe and get there via Asia or Australia or New Zealand.

The first time I visited Bali (1980) there were no international flights to Bali, so I arrived on a Garuda jet from Jakarta. But I was still an international visitor.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 124):
At 39 pax a day from LON to HNL, Its only big enough if you ignore reality.

46,000 divided by 365 is 126 per day, not 39. You invented 39 by saying that 60% wouldn't take a flight departing from London.

And long-haul leisure flights never start at daily frequency, they grow from once, twice or three times weekly.

There are already 884 passengers per week from the UK to Hawaii, and that's without any direct flights, and with uniquely uncomfortable service standards for British long-haul passengers.


User currently offlinebluesky73 From UK - England, joined Oct 2012, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5320 times:

I am British and as mentioned above just got back from Hawaii. Absolutely amazing and want to go back. In the whole two weeks we were at Oahu and Maui we hardly heard or met any British people. There was surprising quite a few Germans but other than that mainly US, Aussies, Japanesse and Canadians.

HA, or European carriers should look at direct routes. As this topic is about 777 being leased by HA it would be great but can the 77E or 77L do direct from HNL to Europe?


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7162 posts, RR: 57
Reply 128, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5186 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 126):
46,000 divided by 365 is 126 per day, not 39. You invented 39 by saying that 60% wouldn't take a flight departing from London.

Less than 90% of brits live in the UK, which includes Scotland, and Northern Ireland.
At most, 40% of British population is served by Gatwick, the natural choice for a route like this, in the same way FRA doesn't serve all of Germany.
Not all Brits going to Hawaii want to go to HNL.

I didn't invent the numbers - I used logic to define a London market.

Even if i'm out by 100%, that's 80 a day.
Even if on top of that the market is stimulated by 100%, and all of that 200% take the direct flight, thats only 160 a day.

We havent even discussed yields - On such a long route like this with no VFR and no corporate demand, yields will be also tough, just like BKK - AF are down to x3 weekly to BKK, and LH have said that it is their worst performing route.


double digit current passenger demand, no corporate traffic, no VFR = heavy losses.

[Edited 2013-05-26 09:31:36]


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7162 posts, RR: 57
Reply 129, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5133 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 126):
You invented 39

Looks like my 39 estimate is really accurate.


Here is some actual statistics for London.

http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/aviation

Points to 15k annual Originating passengers ex London to HNL in 2011, or 41 daily.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 130, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5010 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 128):
Even if i'm out by 100%, that's 80 a day.
Even if on top of that the market is stimulated by 100%, and all of that 200% take the direct flight, thats only 160 a day.

It's a tough, but it isn't impossible.

Since 1976 I've watched Phuket - HKT - grow from nothing much more than a collection of Thai fishing villages and a few local inns. Same-same Ko Samui.

When I first went to Langkawi - LGK - in 1980 the landing strip was a bit of a joke and there was nothing except one big, empty, almost abandoned government-built hotel - built in the wrong place - which is why we went there, it gave us (bare bones) accommodation for a film cast and crew. The beautiful beaches which are now ringed by hotels were (literally) empty then and we recorded that emptiness on film. For a month, we were the only non-Malays on the island.

Bali, in the early seventies, was all rice paddies between Kuta Beach and the Oberoi. Pure leisure? Meh - when I was first at the Oberoi there were a couple of conferences of business people from Asia and Australia meeting on common - and extraordinarily pleasant - ground.

In that sense, Hawaii is already well ahead of the game - it has the population, the infrastructure and the reputation. I agree, a stand-alone HNL-LHR might struggle, but I do think that the concept of HNL as a trans-Pacific hub, especially to the South Pacific, might boost its chances.

Hawaii is extremely attractive as a transit point - which it always used to be until arrival of the 747-400. It is beautiful but it is also safe and clean. And it isn't LAX which, deservedly or not, has a foul reputation as a US transit hub among Australians and New Zealanders.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13161 posts, RR: 100
Reply 131, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 4864 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 29):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
HA simply doesn't have the market for 777s.

Sure they do.

SYD and HND would be perfect for a 777.

But is that enough for the economics of a long term subfleet?   
You could add LAX and JFK to that list and still the economics are not good enough.

If HA needs a larger airframe, they'll go with the A359/A35J.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 122):
Thats only 39 pax per day from the London catchment area flying to HNL

Thank you for the numbers. Even with transfers, I do not think HNL-LHR will work. Once upon a time I had hope, but when I exchange enthusiasm for analysis, I do not see how HA could make a profit.  

HA will have to let a partner fly London to JFK and pick up the UK residents there. Or they could fly LHR-LAX... The added stop isn't ideal, but with such a small market...

Quoting mariner (Reply 130):
I do think that the concept of HNL as a trans-Pacific hub, especially to the South Pacific, might boost its chances.

I see that happening. The issue is the tiny population they would be serving. HA service will grow. But a direct to London? I no longer think that likely.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4749 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 128):
We havent even discussed yields - On such a long route like this with no VFR and no corporate demand, yields will be also tough, just like BKK - AF are down to x3 weekly to BKK, and LH have said that it is their worst performing route.

First, LH and AF are business focussed, and there is no significant business travel to BKK. There is loads of leisure travel and they are not set up to handle this profitably. Today most leisure traffic to BKK will go via TG. They even have daily A380 to CDG. TG fills up J pretty well to the max with people with onward connections - something AF and TG can not do. Another airline which has no problem making it to Thailand is Transaero - again no your traditional story airline.
HA is a lower cost operation so the yield threshold to make it work is a lot lower.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 122):
120 posts, and not one statistic on visitors from the UK

http://files.hawaii.gov/dbedt/visito...ims/Country%20Quarterly%202012.pdf

46k brits arrived in Hawaii (All Islands) from all destinations last year.

Lets assume:

85% of those live in the UK (rest are UK passport holders living in other parts of the world)
90% went to Hawaii island. (rest to other islands)
Lets assume that 40% of those come from a London Catchment area (rest from cities more convenient to fly from other cities)

Thats only 39 pax per day from the London catchment area flying to HNL

No - Hawaiian aren't going to be leasing six 777's to capture 39 pax per day.
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 128):
Less than 90% of brits live in the UK, which includes Scotland, and Northern Ireland.
At most, 40% of British population is served by Gatwick, the natural choice for a route like this, in the same way FRA doesn't serve all of Germany.
Not all Brits going to Hawaii want to go to HNL.

I didn't invent the numbers - I used logic to define a London market.

Even if i'm out by 100%, that's 80 a day.
Even if on top of that the market is stimulated by 100%, and all of that 200% take the direct flight, thats only 160 a day.

This is silly thinking. Europe to HNL is not served effectively at all. To think only British go there and then only the British which fly today is silly. If that is the case, the people marketing this route should be shot for incompetence.

Why do you insist it must be LHR? LHR is business, not leisure. LHR has poor connections within Europe. FRA would be better, or probably the best will be AMS. Sign an agreement with KL to get scandinavians from all over the place to AMS and have a KL/HA codeshare ferry them to HNL. Scandinavia has the income power to go there on Holidays (as is seen by the number of them holidaying in Asia) and they are used to making the small hop to AMS.

Quoting mariner (Reply 130):
It's a tough, but it isn't impossible.

Since 1976 I've watched Phuket - HKT - grow from nothing much more than a collection of Thai fishing villages and a few local inns. Same-same Ko Samui.

When I first went to Langkawi - LGK - in 1980 the landing strip was a bit of a joke and there was nothing except one big, empty, almost abandoned government-built hotel - built in the wrong place - which is why we went there, it gave us (bare bones) accommodation for a film cast and crew. The beautiful beaches which are now ringed by hotels were (literally) empty then and we recorded that emptiness on film. For a month, we were the only non-Malays on the island.

  

People should watch the interview with Tim Clark. He states that one of the key reasons for EK success is the fact that the world is changing rapidly and global traffic patterns are changing fast. People travel from everywhere to everywhere. An example he gives is Central Africa. Everyone pulled out in the 70s and 80s but the demand is there and EK is one of the very few taking advantage of that. There is a lot of other interesting things he is say - all going against the common opinion on A.Net.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 133, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 4509 times:

Quoting 777STL (Reply 113):
You seem like you've done well for yourself Koruman, and I commend you for that. However, considering your socioeconomic status and the circles you likely run in, I don't think your qualified to make blanket assertions for the other "99%" of Europeans and Australians. In other words, I think you're a bit out of touch with what's going on in the world. Average Europeans don't routinely fly premium class on their own dime

Thanks for the compliment.

But I'm not arguing for First Class flat-beds to Hawaii. I'm actually arguing for decent-quality Economy Class products in order to ensure that long-haul passengers aren't driven away by the discomfort.

Look at the difference between how Americans and Australians conceptualise airline travel over long distances.

Exhibit A: American

Quoting 777STL (Reply 99):
Pretty much. I've been to Hawaii twice in the past three years. If you're not living on the west coast, there really is no fun way to get to Hawaii - even in F,

Exhibit B: Australian

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 114):
As a young, urban Australian the thought of flying 24 hours is meaningless, I will gladly do it tomorrow, and not just because I'm an Anetter. My friends and acquaintances my age don't even have a concept of long-haul flying. Being born in contemporary urban Australia imbues in you the notion that spending 24 hours on a plane is as routine as commuting to work.

The difference is stark.

We keep being told that ALL Americans are willing to trade comfort on domestic Economy Class flights in return for low fares.

But then we see that:

1. They fly long-haul far, far less than their overseas peers.
2. They generally pick a nearby beach over a distant beach for a vacation by air, even though large numbers of Australians, for example, fly past Fiji to get to Hawaii and even larger numbers of British people fly past the Canary Islands to get to the Caribbean.
3. Foreign visitors who would have to take a long domestic sector on a US airline to go to Hawaii travel long-haul to Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, the Seychelles and Mauritius instead, where Economy class products offer more comfort and actually don't leave you unfed for the last 6-15 hours of your journey.

I am not saying these things to belittle Americans, although I sympathise with them for how their airline executives inflcit a "one size fits all" model upon them.

No, my point is simply that if and when European Economy Class leisure travellers can get to Hawaii in the levels of comfort to which they have become accustomed from their trips to Asia and the Indian Ocean, they will. I believe that there is a big enough untapped market.

The 787-8 is intended to carry 230 passengers 7,500-8,500 miles. I would have thought that an aircraft of that capacity could be viable to Honolulu not just from London but also 2-3 times weekly from Manchester, Frankfurt, Berlin, Munich, Amsterdam and Paris too. A 787-8 basically has the Economy Class capacity of an all-economy A320 plus 35 Premium Economy and 20 Business Class seats. It's not exactly a jumbo jet.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7162 posts, RR: 57
Reply 134, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 4413 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 133):
I would have thought that an aircraft of that capacity could be viable to Honolulu not just from London but also 2-3 times weekly from Manchester, Frankfurt, Berlin, Munich, Amsterdam and Paris too

Not alone do you not believe that one city is not viable, you now propose than HA launch seven cities.... Oh this is so far beyond the realms of reality that I give up.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 135, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 4355 times:

I didn't say seven cities today, or daily.

I said that ultimately on a 230 seater there could be multiple viable ports.

Starting probably with London twice weekly.


User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1966 posts, RR: 2
Reply 136, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4110 times:

Is this thread about the rumored HA 777 order or whether Europe is better than the US?


My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlinerjm717 From Australia, joined May 2000, 87 posts, RR: 1
Reply 137, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3984 times:

Quoting rjm717 (Reply 118):
I have been meaning to jump in here before a moderator somewhere locks the thread for being off topic.

Like I said, but hey, it's an entertaining discussion.

One thing I should add on Americans' willingness to travel domestically Vs international - I have seen extensive parts of the USA, from Florida, to NYC, Washington DC, Minnesota, Texas, Washington state, Colorado, Louisiana, California, Hawaii and most recently Arizona.. Wow! The landscape and people are remarkable. I don't blame them one bit - I envy them.

But, in order to stay on topic - 777s for HA? No way.

R


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 138, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3782 times:

Qantas747
My point is that the 788 would be right-sized for Europe, but the 350 and any 777 are too big.


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