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Delta:We'll Pass On The 737Max & A320NEO, For Now  
User currently offlinerising From United States of America, joined May 2010, 269 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 3 months 1 hour ago) and read 21066 times:

Delta Air Lines CEO Richard Anderson had some interesting comments on the carrier's fleet options.

Looks like the company plans to wait to see the performance of the 737 Max and A320neo before looking at orders. The Company does have the option to convert 40 of their 100 739 order from 2011 to the Max should they choose.

"The airplane salesmen always show you charts that have these big operating savings," Anderson said. "But the charts never have the capital cost, so it is a little bit of a fallacy to analyze airplanes without the capital costs included."

In regard to the Airbus A330/787, Anderson commented, "We operate 33 A330s and were a launch customer in the U.S.," Delta's Anderson said. He added that should Boeing hope that its stretched 787 will take sales from the A330, "its prices have to come way down."

Source: Reuters

Link: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100759006


If it doesn't make sense, it's because it's not true.
84 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20479 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 1 hour ago) and read 21008 times:

Quoting rising (Thread starter):
"But the charts never have the capital cost, so it is a little bit of a fallacy to analyze airplanes without the capital costs included."

That surprises me. In nearly every other industry, total cost of operation is pretty much standard. In the industry I'm in, which is capital intensive to break into, the tax treatment of various purchasing options for the customer is always a part of the sales presentation.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineFlyingGoat From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months ago) and read 20961 times:

This makes me wonder if perhaps DL is looking at the C series as well. The C series would be a very nice fit for them.

As far as the 787 goes, my opinion is that Delta will have them eventually, and I think the 787-8/9/10 will be the bread and butter of their international fleet. I would not be surprised to see 50+ 787s in their fleet 15-20 years from now.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6470 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months ago) and read 20850 times:

Quoting FlyingGoat (Reply 2):
This makes me wonder if perhaps DL is looking at the C series as well. The C series would be a very nice fit for them.

With DL getting the 717s from AirTran, I don't see a CSeries order anytime soon.

For the 787, I expect DL will likely place a separate order for the 789 with GEnx engines, and perhaps sell off the existing 788 order.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1639 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months ago) and read 20805 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
For the 787, I expect DL will likely place a separate order for the 789 with GEnx engines, and perhaps sell off the existing 788 order.

As opposed to just upping their 788s to 789s? Why would they do that?


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2087 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months ago) and read 20726 times:

It sounds like DL did not get the deal they were looking for. Perhaps they want a lower price than what UA and AA got.

User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5491 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months ago) and read 20703 times:

Quoting rising (Thread starter):
"The airplane salesmen always show you charts that have these big operating savings," Anderson said. "But the charts never have the capital cost, so it is a little bit of a fallacy to analyze airplanes without the capital costs included."

Well to be fair, the capital cost is never actually known until the end of the sale process. It is all part of the negotiation, it is all part of the real calculation that goes on internally in the airline during the sales process where the airline is evaluating at what cost a buy will make sense. The airline uses what prices are determined to work as their base line to decide whether or not the salesman with his charts will get the sale.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6470 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20644 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 4):
As opposed to just upping their 788s to 789s? Why would they do that?

DL always goes for the best engine available at the time (as they did with the 767 and 772ER), and the GEnx is currently the superior engine for the 787. Doing this way DL can get the aircraft and engines they want without violating the contract that NW had with RR. GE is also one of DL's financers.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9310 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20433 times:

Quoting FlyingGoat (Reply 2):
This makes me wonder if perhaps DL is looking at the C series as well. The C series would be a very nice fit for them.

no need. they have the 717.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
For the 787, I expect DL will likely place a separate order for the 789 with GEnx engines, and perhaps sell off the existing 788 order.

Highly unlikely that the Trents don't happen with Delta. UA and AA are both going GEnx, Rolls will likely offer Delta a deal that can't be matched by GE.

Could also mean a Trent 1000 line for TechOps.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 4):
As opposed to just upping their 788s to 789s? Why would they do that?

because the CF6 powers the 764....thus anything GE makes is gold.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
GE is also one of DL's financers.

what do you mean by this? GE doesn't own any Delta stock that is large enough to show up on yahoo.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
Doing this way DL can get the aircraft and engines they want without violating the contract that NW had with RR.

They still have to cancel the RR contract. Even if they "sell" 18 as you say they still have options and other parts of the deal that would have to be worked out.

You know that with the BR715s, T800s, and V2500s Delta has a very large Rolls fleet now. GE will still have 150-200 more Delta engines but it is very close. Delta and Rolls will have a nice relationship in the future.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
DL always goes for the best engine available at the time (as they did with the 767 and 772ER), and the GEnx is currently the superior engine for the 787.

You can't tell me, or anyone, that the GEnx will be the "superior" engine when Delta takes 787s. Just because the CF6 powers the 764 that doesn't mean that Delta is going to order nothing but GE engines from now on. Rolls could very well put together a package that keeps RRs on the 787s. This could mean financing, possible MRO contract for Delta TechOps (or very very good terms on a power by the hour agreement, but lets hope its a MRO contract for TechOps)

IMHO at best you'll get a split order. I just can't see GE being able, or willing to, beat the terms Rolls is likely to offer DL to be the only US 787 customer. AA signing the deal to have GE lease the 787s to them with GEnx engines, IMO, sealed the deal.

Quoting rising (Thread starter):

Looks like the company plans to wait to see the performance of the 737 Max and A320neo before looking at orders. The Company does have the option to convert 40 of their 100 739 order from 2011 to the Max should they choose.

Pretty much the Delta thing now. Wait and see then pick one. Can't argue the point honestly. The MAX likely wont be "that"much better than late built NGs.

Quoting rising (Thread starter):

"The airplane salesmen always show you charts that have these big operating savings," Anderson said. "But the charts never have the capital cost, so it is a little bit of a fallacy to analyze airplanes without the capital costs included."

I think this is something people tend to forget. Delta's plan is to buy airplanes so the capital cost plays a big factor to them. This was a key reason Boeing got the 737-900ER order.



yep.
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6470 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20121 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 8):
V2500s

Sorry, but RR is no longer part of the IAE consortium.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 8):
because the CF6 powers the 764....thus anything GE makes is gold.

And the newer 763ERs, and the 772LRs, and in part on the 737NG and A32x fleet. We know you are a die-hard RR fan since they were the exclusive engine on the L-1011. Sorry, but the relationship with GE is obviously the stronger relationship.

BTW, DL could have ordered the Pratt & Whitney PW4062 engine instead for the 764ER, however, they chose the CF6-80C2B8F because it was the superior engine.

[Edited 2013-05-22 15:00:37]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30855 posts, RR: 86
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19963 times:
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Quoting AADC10 (Reply 5):
It sounds like DL did not get the deal they were looking for. Perhaps they want a lower price than what UA and AA got.

Looking through Delta's SEC filings of 31 August 2011, Jon Ostrower with the WSJ projected that they received a 51% discount on their 737-900ER order (airframe and engines).

As for the 787-8 order, NW was an early customer and it appears that they will pay $139 million a piece for them based on those same DL SEC filings noting they had $2.5 billion in aircraft purchase commitments from 2020 to 2022 that related to 18 787-8 aircraft.


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9310 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19883 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
We know you are a die-hard RR fan since they were the exclusive engine on the L-1011.

Again, for the last time, as long as Delta fixes it, I couldn't honestly give two s...craps what they fly or who makes it. Do you understand now. I can't possibly type it any slower.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Sorry, but RR is no longer part of the IAE consortium.

While they sold the stake, RR is still a part of the V2500 engine. A good chunk of the engine came from them.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
and the 772LRs,

No choice. On the 777s they could pick an engine they have Rolls.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
And the newer 763ERs,

Uh its not like the PW4000 fleet is "old" but again, you're basing your comments on something that happened 10 years ago?.....really?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
and in part on the 737NG

Who else were they going to pick?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
and A32x fleet.

NW order, not Delta.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Sorry, but the relationship with GE is obviously the stronger relationship.

please, provide proof of this.
But you're not using logic so it doesn't really matter. I honestly wish you knew as much as you think you do.



yep.
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9580 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19874 times:

This isn’t that much of a surprise. Delta is following the Northwest model of keeping airplane capital costs low by acquiring used airplanes and holding its fleet longer. It’s been acquiring reasonably efficient 717s and MD90s that no one else wanted. The 737-900ERs are some of the last off the line and would have come with a big discount that Boeing would not offer on the MAX. Delta pays the price with higher fuel burn and maintenance, but obviously they have made the evaluation that expensive new airplanes are not their best option.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8464 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19879 times:

Quoting rising (Thread starter):

"The airplane salesmen always show you charts that have these big operating savings," Anderson said. "But the charts never have the capital cost, so it is a little bit of a fallacy to analyze airplanes without the capital costs included."
> This man deserves a Nobel prize here.

Boeing always says the 787 is "sooo much cheaper to operate"

But it depends on the specifics. Delta seems happy with their 763ER Winglets. Which is "cheaper?" Maybe RA is telling us.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 8):
what do you mean by this? GE doesn't own any Delta stock that is large enough to show up on yahoo.

GE Capital undoubtedly works with Delta (ie 77L) as a money lender for engines, and anything else.


User currently offlineFlyingGoat From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19784 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
With DL getting the 717s from AirTran, I don't see a CSeries order anytime soon.
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 8):
no need. they have the 717.

I had a brain fart and totally forgot about the 717s. I agree then, not much room for the C Series. Maybe one day...   


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6470 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19745 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
GE Capital undoubtedly works with Delta (ie 77L) as a money lender for engines, and anything else.

Which is why GE could offer DL a good deal on 787 engines. DL doesn't get any such benefit from RR.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12414 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19510 times:

Quoting FlyingGoat (Reply 2):
This makes me wonder if perhaps DL is looking at the C series as well.

We all know what they are looking for: MD-90s, MD-95s (err, 717s), DC-9s, anything with Douglas heritage!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19379 times:

No surprise here!

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
Boeing always says the 787 is "sooo much cheaper to operate"

But it depends on the specifics. Delta seems happy with their 763ER Winglets. Which is "cheaper?" Maybe RA is telling us.

The 787 really is "sooo much cheaper to operate." That's not debatable. Nor is the fact that ordering new-build 787s has a greater financial burden than continuing to operate already-owned 767s. RA, and Delta in general, is looking at the bigger picture.

I posted about this before when Delta ordered 737-900ERs instead of the MAX, and I'm not sure just how accurate the numbers are.. but:

737MAX is projected to be 14-16% more efficient than 737NG.. 739M costs about 12% more than current-build 739s. Once you consider other costs, it would seem the 737NG and 737MAX are about the same price in the long-run.. with the 737NG being cheaper in the short-run.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
With DL getting the 717s from AirTran, I don't see a CSeries order anytime soon.

   If anything, I could even see DL getting a bunch of old E-jets..

[Edited 2013-05-22 16:03:37]


Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9580 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 19353 times:

Quoting ghifty (Reply 17):
737MAX is projected to be 14-16% more efficient than 737NG.. 739M costs about 12% more than current-build 739s. Once you consider other costs, it would seem the 737NG and 737MAX are about the same price in the long-run.. with the 737NG being cheaper in the short-run.

If Boeing was smart and acted completely as an independent company interested in maximizing profit, the total lifecycle costs for the 737-900ER would be the same as the 737 MAX-9. That means for all the dollars that were saved with the MAX's operating efficiency improvements, the purchase price would be equivalently raised. That doesn't actually happen in real life with imperfect competition, but on paper, it makes economic sense.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 19213 times:

Quoting FlyingGoat (Reply 2):

Just because he didn't specifically exclude the C Series, doesn't mean they're considering it. In fact, if any airframe out of the MAX, NEO, or C Series needs performance proving it 's the C Series.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 17):

Maybe they'll buy the B6 E fleet when it's time to replace the 717s  


User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 19183 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 18):
That doesn't actually happen in real life with imperfect competition, but on paper, it makes economic sense.

   Makes sense.

It's hard for me to accurately construe anything since neither Boeing nor Delta releases the actual price of aircraft sold/purchased. What is list price even used for..?

Quoting catiii (Reply 19):
Maybe they'll buy the B6 E fleet when it's time to replace the 717s  

And then purchase T5 and move out of T2..      

[Edited 2013-05-22 16:19:17]


Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9310 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 19130 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 15):

So your saying rolls doesn't offer power by the hour on the Trent 1000?

Oh and the BR715 engines are all power by the hour and owned by RR. So clearly they can do so

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):

Ah probably true. Not sure who owns those engines. (Always forget about them)



yep.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19495 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 19081 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 12):
Delta pays the price with higher fuel burn and maintenance, but obviously they have made the evaluation that expensive new airplanes are not their best option.

Which is an odd business model to take, but seems to be working for DL. I'd be curious to ask Mr. Anderson why his fleet strategy is at such variance with those of his competitors at UA and AA.


User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 19036 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
Which is an odd business model to take, but seems to be working for DL. I'd be curious to ask Mr. Anderson why his fleet strategy is at such variance with those of his competitors at UA and AA.

It is working. Cuts CAPEX (is this the right term?) immensely.

I think it's at variance.. because it simply can be. Where else would FL's 717s have gone? Or the ex-TW 757s? Or those MD-90s? If UA/AA wanted them.. DL's model wouldn't be sustainable, but they don't so it is.



Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlinelucky777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 549 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 18886 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
Which is an odd business model to take, but seems to be working for DL. I'd be curious to ask Mr. Anderson why his fleet strategy is at such variance with those of his competitors at UA and AA.

Indeed...i would have to assume Delta and AA and UA (along with Southwest, jetBlue etc....) have looked at the exact same numbers with regards to aircraft and come to vastly different outcomes. Delta operates more like an upstart that scours the globe for used aircraft that the majors no longer have a need for wherease AA and UA have been ordering new aircraft by the boatload.


25 LAXintl : Except the A330 does not compete with the 787. The A330 is of course cheaper as result. More appropriate comparison would be 350 vs 787.
26 stlgph : Having a variance in a fleet makes it possible/easier for Delta to add used/second market aircraft to the fleet at its leisure.
27 LAXintl : If you want power-by-hour on the 787, you need to sign up for the Boeing Gold Care solution. GoldCare features engine support option with either the G
28 Post contains images EPA001 : It sure does, especially on the short routes where the B787 long range capabilities are a disadvantage. Which is exactly why it is competing with the
29 LAXintl : That's like saying Honda competes with Mercedes. Sure both will get you from A to B and the Honda could be suitable for many clients, but at the end
30 EASTERN747 : Ok,,,,,,,What is a 737Max and 320 whatever?
31 lutfi : Not true, the engine PBH deals & Gold Care can be separated. Some airlines have gone for LHT/AFI/BA for airframe/ component PBH support, and engi
32 RickNRoll : It's all apples and oranges. The airline chooses the plane that's fit's their needs, their business model and price. Which is why A330 manufacturing
33 Post contains links and images bomber996 : http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/737family/737max.page? http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...t/a320family/spotlight-on-a320neo/ Peace
34 goldenstate : How is the GEnx superior, and what makes you think that DL decision makers have that view? I don't see how you could have reached this conclusion. It
35 Deltal1011man : For Delta's needs I bet the low ownership cost and fairly low MX numbers is playing a big part of it. Over time the the 767-300ERs will have to be re
36 LAXintl : I am pretty certain not, or atleast it was not possible in 2011. Restriction was part of joining GoldCare, with parties being precluded from competin
37 Post contains images cschleic : Economic theory and business reality rarely are the same thing. Reality is so much more complicated. For example, Allegiant adding plane types. They
38 Post contains images PM : Who's going to tell him it's 32? Surely there's a typo here? You don't mean 'expect', you mean 'hope'.
39 AirbusA6 : With Delta's recent buying pattern, will they be buying secondhand 737NGs and A320s as other operators replace theirs? Might be a good interim buy to
40 bobnwa : Didn't you at one time make the statement that you would never fly on an airbus product or work for an airline that flew them. I also believe you mad
41 Post contains images RyanairGuru : The problem is that unless they get, say, the ex-FR frames at 8 years old (which will have 15 years left in them) then they don't make them like they
42 Flighty : Sigh. Operating costs traditionally include the cost of your equipment. So, like you say. The 787 is expensive. A Dreamliner fleet may be more expens
43 Post contains images frigatebird : Ah, negotiations on NW's 787 order have restarted again Probably these will include the 787-9 and -10s for expansion I guess the 777s and A330s will
44 justloveplanes : Delta' s strategy is in between UA/AA and Southwest. Southwest buys new and holds onto aircraft till they are done. I think they own most of their ai
45 BigJKU : What is kind of interesting to me is the possibility that Delta hordes cash through these kind of things and then might be willing to place a large or
46 enilria : I wasn't sure what this really meant. It is true that the manufacturers show cost comparisons that make their airplane look the best. It is also true
47 aajfksjubklyn : With an average fleet age of 17.2 years, the last thing they need to be doing is passing up new airplanes????? AA is a distant 2nd w/ 14.8 years but t
48 Flighty : He is chiding the airframe makers for saying that. "Lower seat-mile costs" ad nauseum. Sometimes a DC-10 has cheaper seat-mile cost, if you only fly
49 delta2ual : To the average flyer, that is irrelevant. As long as the inside is nice, most don't know how old the plane is. I said before, my mom thought she was
50 AeroWesty : The best salespeople should know their own and their prospect's business well enough that if one asked, "what's your best deal we can look at," the s
51 MSPNWA : Eventually it will catch up with them. DL's current strategy is for the short-term and that is reflected in their recent financials. Long-term though
52 bobnwa : Do you really think that Delta hasn't thought abut all that you point out? I'll place my money on RA rather than Anet members.
53 Revelation : It'll be interesting to see. The idea behind the merger was to take two airlines sized to compete with each other and gain synergy by putting the met
54 FriendlySkies : Take a look at the age of AA's MD80s or UA's 757s...I'd say they have the same strategy as you mention for WN.
55 n471wn : Good for Delta as they seem to understand what most other airlines do not---that is that there is real value in quality used a/c which can be purchase
56 FWAERJ : Like AA and the Mad Dogs, UA is retiring the oldest of the sUA 757s (with Pratts) fast - plus they're selling a bunch of the sUA 757s to FedEx. The R
57 DocLightning : But at the expense of operating expense. If you have a fleet with high operating costs and low ownership costs (which is the case with an older fleet
58 Prost : Expanding on what Doc Lightning said, Delta also pulls down flying extensively during the winter months, and shiny expensive new airplanes wouldn't be
59 LV : This is exactly the scenario I have been thinking about. I figure when FR starts dumping it's 738s DL will pick up at least a dozen of them.
60 tommy767 : I agree with this statement 100%
61 bobnwa : In the Delta forum section of Pilot Central has several messages from pilots talking about getting 10 A330-200 aicraft and 30 A321 aircraft. Doesn't
62 1337Delta764 : The A321 rumor has been going on for years. With the 739ER order, DL has no real need for the A321. Furthermore, the pilot contracts would have to be
63 OA412 : Not this again. Individual clauses in contracts can be renegotiated, and are not that big of a deal. If DL feels that the A321 is right for them, the
64 1337Delta764 : No, I really do EXPECT the 737MAX will have the advantage due to Boeing's unwillingness to lose one of their most important customers to Airbus, whic
65 tommy767 : The thing is once DL gets new 739ER, what's the point of them ever getting the MAX? There just doesn't seem to be much of a difference between the 90
66 1337Delta764 : The 737MAX will eventually be needed to replace the MD-88 fleet and some additional A320s and 757s, however, I don't see it happening anytime soon.
67 tommy767 : Not sure that the MAX is for replacing M88s at all. That's what the 717s are for.
68 Post contains images B757forever : The MD88s aren't going anywhere anytime soon. In 20 years we may be barraged with "when will DL retire the MD88" threads on A.net.
69 1337Delta764 : No, the 717s are to upsize routes currently served by larger RJs (CR7/CR9/E170/E175), which will in turn take over most 50-seat RJ routes.
70 DocLightning : The trick is to keep using the shiny planes and keep the old planes on the ground more.
71 PresRDC : It no longer has an equity stake in the consortium, but it still supplies the engine components to IAE that it did before the buy-out, so, in effect,
72 Post contains links and images JoeCanuck : I wonder if any of the airlines with fleets of MD's has tested out the Dugan mod; http://www.dugankinetics.com/
73 MSPNWA : Where did I say that they haven't thought about the pro and cons of their strategy? That's right, I didn't. Of course they've thought it over. Whethe
74 FlyingGoat : Thanks for posting that! I saw that plane a couple weeks ago and wondered what the deal with it was.
75 dtw9 : American did. Somebody posted about it in another thread last year and stated that the SFC on the test aircraft that American installed it on actuall
76 bobnwa : Can you back up that statement with actual numbers?
77 sweair : I wonder why DL did not snatch all the 787 terrible teens as they love el cheapo airframes? Price seems more important than efficiency at DL? Had they
78 Revelation : I don't see DL wanting 10 new widebodies on short order. They're too happy running their 767s till they can't run any more.
79 bobnwa : I don''t now exactly what you mean by the terrible teens but I am sure th 787 would have cost a lot more than the equal number of A330-200's
80 PPVRA : Cheap and reliable. The "terrible teens" may be one, but are not the other. And in the end, reliability issues come with their own cost, so it's dubi
81 bkflyguy : You also have to keep in mind the stage length various aircraft are flying. The majority of fuel savings is during cruise. So on shorter segments, the
82 msp747 : Or they could place a big order for 773's at bargain prices to help Boeing cover those final slots before the introduction of the 779. Or they might
83 JoeCanuck : I wonder if winglets would significantly improve the performance of the MD-90.
84 Deltal1011man : Not only this but with only two shops in the world that can overhaul the GE90, both of which not being in the US, and the already high cost of the GE
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Captain Who Is Rated On The 757 And 737 posted Tue Sep 9 2008 10:06:15 by 767nutter
Brakes Being Tested On The 380 And 777 posted Sun Aug 26 2007 06:35:52 by Mycrj17
On The News: New Airport For NYC? posted Tue Feb 14 2006 08:36:12 by Rampart
ST Article On The A350 And US Airways... posted Fri May 20 2005 14:39:40 by BoeingBus
EK On The 772LR And 787 posted Sat Mar 26 2005 17:27:54 by N60659
Shopping On The A380 And Turbulence posted Tue Dec 14 2004 19:50:57 by AirWales
My Opinion On The A380 And The 747 posted Sun Aug 8 2004 18:49:24 by KiwiNanday