Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Delta:We'll Pass On The 737Max & A320NEO, For Now  
User currently offlinerising From United States of America, joined May 2010, 272 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 21159 times:

Delta Air Lines CEO Richard Anderson had some interesting comments on the carrier's fleet options.

Looks like the company plans to wait to see the performance of the 737 Max and A320neo before looking at orders. The Company does have the option to convert 40 of their 100 739 order from 2011 to the Max should they choose.

"The airplane salesmen always show you charts that have these big operating savings," Anderson said. "But the charts never have the capital cost, so it is a little bit of a fallacy to analyze airplanes without the capital costs included."

In regard to the Airbus A330/787, Anderson commented, "We operate 33 A330s and were a launch customer in the U.S.," Delta's Anderson said. He added that should Boeing hope that its stretched 787 will take sales from the A330, "its prices have to come way down."

Source: Reuters

Link: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100759006


If it doesn't make sense, it's because it's not true.
84 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 21101 times:

Quoting rising (Thread starter):
"But the charts never have the capital cost, so it is a little bit of a fallacy to analyze airplanes without the capital costs included."

That surprises me. In nearly every other industry, total cost of operation is pretty much standard. In the industry I'm in, which is capital intensive to break into, the tax treatment of various purchasing options for the customer is always a part of the sales presentation.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineFlyingGoat From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 21054 times:

This makes me wonder if perhaps DL is looking at the C series as well. The C series would be a very nice fit for them.

As far as the 787 goes, my opinion is that Delta will have them eventually, and I think the 787-8/9/10 will be the bread and butter of their international fleet. I would not be surprised to see 50+ 787s in their fleet 15-20 years from now.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6537 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 20943 times:

Quoting FlyingGoat (Reply 2):
This makes me wonder if perhaps DL is looking at the C series as well. The C series would be a very nice fit for them.

With DL getting the 717s from AirTran, I don't see a CSeries order anytime soon.

For the 787, I expect DL will likely place a separate order for the 789 with GEnx engines, and perhaps sell off the existing 788 order.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1676 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 20898 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
For the 787, I expect DL will likely place a separate order for the 789 with GEnx engines, and perhaps sell off the existing 788 order.

As opposed to just upping their 788s to 789s? Why would they do that?


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2092 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 20819 times:

It sounds like DL did not get the deal they were looking for. Perhaps they want a lower price than what UA and AA got.

User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 20796 times:

Quoting rising (Thread starter):
"The airplane salesmen always show you charts that have these big operating savings," Anderson said. "But the charts never have the capital cost, so it is a little bit of a fallacy to analyze airplanes without the capital costs included."

Well to be fair, the capital cost is never actually known until the end of the sale process. It is all part of the negotiation, it is all part of the real calculation that goes on internally in the airline during the sales process where the airline is evaluating at what cost a buy will make sense. The airline uses what prices are determined to work as their base line to decide whether or not the salesman with his charts will get the sale.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6537 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 20737 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 4):
As opposed to just upping their 788s to 789s? Why would they do that?

DL always goes for the best engine available at the time (as they did with the 767 and 772ER), and the GEnx is currently the superior engine for the 787. Doing this way DL can get the aircraft and engines they want without violating the contract that NW had with RR. GE is also one of DL's financers.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently onlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9435 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 20526 times:

Quoting FlyingGoat (Reply 2):
This makes me wonder if perhaps DL is looking at the C series as well. The C series would be a very nice fit for them.

no need. they have the 717.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
For the 787, I expect DL will likely place a separate order for the 789 with GEnx engines, and perhaps sell off the existing 788 order.

Highly unlikely that the Trents don't happen with Delta. UA and AA are both going GEnx, Rolls will likely offer Delta a deal that can't be matched by GE.

Could also mean a Trent 1000 line for TechOps.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 4):
As opposed to just upping their 788s to 789s? Why would they do that?

because the CF6 powers the 764....thus anything GE makes is gold.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
GE is also one of DL's financers.

what do you mean by this? GE doesn't own any Delta stock that is large enough to show up on yahoo.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
Doing this way DL can get the aircraft and engines they want without violating the contract that NW had with RR.

They still have to cancel the RR contract. Even if they "sell" 18 as you say they still have options and other parts of the deal that would have to be worked out.

You know that with the BR715s, T800s, and V2500s Delta has a very large Rolls fleet now. GE will still have 150-200 more Delta engines but it is very close. Delta and Rolls will have a nice relationship in the future.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
DL always goes for the best engine available at the time (as they did with the 767 and 772ER), and the GEnx is currently the superior engine for the 787.

You can't tell me, or anyone, that the GEnx will be the "superior" engine when Delta takes 787s. Just because the CF6 powers the 764 that doesn't mean that Delta is going to order nothing but GE engines from now on. Rolls could very well put together a package that keeps RRs on the 787s. This could mean financing, possible MRO contract for Delta TechOps (or very very good terms on a power by the hour agreement, but lets hope its a MRO contract for TechOps)

IMHO at best you'll get a split order. I just can't see GE being able, or willing to, beat the terms Rolls is likely to offer DL to be the only US 787 customer. AA signing the deal to have GE lease the 787s to them with GEnx engines, IMO, sealed the deal.

Quoting rising (Thread starter):

Looks like the company plans to wait to see the performance of the 737 Max and A320neo before looking at orders. The Company does have the option to convert 40 of their 100 739 order from 2011 to the Max should they choose.

Pretty much the Delta thing now. Wait and see then pick one. Can't argue the point honestly. The MAX likely wont be "that"much better than late built NGs.

Quoting rising (Thread starter):

"The airplane salesmen always show you charts that have these big operating savings," Anderson said. "But the charts never have the capital cost, so it is a little bit of a fallacy to analyze airplanes without the capital costs included."

I think this is something people tend to forget. Delta's plan is to buy airplanes so the capital cost plays a big factor to them. This was a key reason Boeing got the 737-900ER order.



yep.
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6537 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 20214 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 8):
V2500s

Sorry, but RR is no longer part of the IAE consortium.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 8):
because the CF6 powers the 764....thus anything GE makes is gold.

And the newer 763ERs, and the 772LRs, and in part on the 737NG and A32x fleet. We know you are a die-hard RR fan since they were the exclusive engine on the L-1011. Sorry, but the relationship with GE is obviously the stronger relationship.

BTW, DL could have ordered the Pratt & Whitney PW4062 engine instead for the 764ER, however, they chose the CF6-80C2B8F because it was the superior engine.

[Edited 2013-05-22 15:00:37]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 20056 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 5):
It sounds like DL did not get the deal they were looking for. Perhaps they want a lower price than what UA and AA got.

Looking through Delta's SEC filings of 31 August 2011, Jon Ostrower with the WSJ projected that they received a 51% discount on their 737-900ER order (airframe and engines).

As for the 787-8 order, NW was an early customer and it appears that they will pay $139 million a piece for them based on those same DL SEC filings noting they had $2.5 billion in aircraft purchase commitments from 2020 to 2022 that related to 18 787-8 aircraft.


User currently onlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9435 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 19976 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
We know you are a die-hard RR fan since they were the exclusive engine on the L-1011.

Again, for the last time, as long as Delta fixes it, I couldn't honestly give two s...craps what they fly or who makes it. Do you understand now. I can't possibly type it any slower.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Sorry, but RR is no longer part of the IAE consortium.

While they sold the stake, RR is still a part of the V2500 engine. A good chunk of the engine came from them.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
and the 772LRs,

No choice. On the 777s they could pick an engine they have Rolls.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
And the newer 763ERs,

Uh its not like the PW4000 fleet is "old" but again, you're basing your comments on something that happened 10 years ago?.....really?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
and in part on the 737NG

Who else were they going to pick?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
and A32x fleet.

NW order, not Delta.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Sorry, but the relationship with GE is obviously the stronger relationship.

please, provide proof of this.
But you're not using logic so it doesn't really matter. I honestly wish you knew as much as you think you do.



yep.
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9643 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 19967 times:

This isn’t that much of a surprise. Delta is following the Northwest model of keeping airplane capital costs low by acquiring used airplanes and holding its fleet longer. It’s been acquiring reasonably efficient 717s and MD90s that no one else wanted. The 737-900ERs are some of the last off the line and would have come with a big discount that Boeing would not offer on the MAX. Delta pays the price with higher fuel burn and maintenance, but obviously they have made the evaluation that expensive new airplanes are not their best option.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 19972 times:

Quoting rising (Thread starter):

"The airplane salesmen always show you charts that have these big operating savings," Anderson said. "But the charts never have the capital cost, so it is a little bit of a fallacy to analyze airplanes without the capital costs included."
> This man deserves a Nobel prize here.

Boeing always says the 787 is "sooo much cheaper to operate"

But it depends on the specifics. Delta seems happy with their 763ER Winglets. Which is "cheaper?" Maybe RA is telling us.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 8):
what do you mean by this? GE doesn't own any Delta stock that is large enough to show up on yahoo.

GE Capital undoubtedly works with Delta (ie 77L) as a money lender for engines, and anything else.


User currently offlineFlyingGoat From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 19877 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
With DL getting the 717s from AirTran, I don't see a CSeries order anytime soon.
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 8):
no need. they have the 717.

I had a brain fart and totally forgot about the 717s. I agree then, not much room for the C Series. Maybe one day...   


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6537 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 19838 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
GE Capital undoubtedly works with Delta (ie 77L) as a money lender for engines, and anything else.

Which is why GE could offer DL a good deal on 787 engines. DL doesn't get any such benefit from RR.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 19603 times:

Quoting FlyingGoat (Reply 2):
This makes me wonder if perhaps DL is looking at the C series as well.

We all know what they are looking for: MD-90s, MD-95s (err, 717s), DC-9s, anything with Douglas heritage!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 19472 times:

No surprise here!

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
Boeing always says the 787 is "sooo much cheaper to operate"

But it depends on the specifics. Delta seems happy with their 763ER Winglets. Which is "cheaper?" Maybe RA is telling us.

The 787 really is "sooo much cheaper to operate." That's not debatable. Nor is the fact that ordering new-build 787s has a greater financial burden than continuing to operate already-owned 767s. RA, and Delta in general, is looking at the bigger picture.

I posted about this before when Delta ordered 737-900ERs instead of the MAX, and I'm not sure just how accurate the numbers are.. but:

737MAX is projected to be 14-16% more efficient than 737NG.. 739M costs about 12% more than current-build 739s. Once you consider other costs, it would seem the 737NG and 737MAX are about the same price in the long-run.. with the 737NG being cheaper in the short-run.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
With DL getting the 717s from AirTran, I don't see a CSeries order anytime soon.

   If anything, I could even see DL getting a bunch of old E-jets..

[Edited 2013-05-22 16:03:37]


Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9643 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 19446 times:

Quoting ghifty (Reply 17):
737MAX is projected to be 14-16% more efficient than 737NG.. 739M costs about 12% more than current-build 739s. Once you consider other costs, it would seem the 737NG and 737MAX are about the same price in the long-run.. with the 737NG being cheaper in the short-run.

If Boeing was smart and acted completely as an independent company interested in maximizing profit, the total lifecycle costs for the 737-900ER would be the same as the 737 MAX-9. That means for all the dollars that were saved with the MAX's operating efficiency improvements, the purchase price would be equivalently raised. That doesn't actually happen in real life with imperfect competition, but on paper, it makes economic sense.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3031 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 19306 times:

Quoting FlyingGoat (Reply 2):

Just because he didn't specifically exclude the C Series, doesn't mean they're considering it. In fact, if any airframe out of the MAX, NEO, or C Series needs performance proving it 's the C Series.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 17):

Maybe they'll buy the B6 E fleet when it's time to replace the 717s  


User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 19276 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 18):
That doesn't actually happen in real life with imperfect competition, but on paper, it makes economic sense.

   Makes sense.

It's hard for me to accurately construe anything since neither Boeing nor Delta releases the actual price of aircraft sold/purchased. What is list price even used for..?

Quoting catiii (Reply 19):
Maybe they'll buy the B6 E fleet when it's time to replace the 717s  

And then purchase T5 and move out of T2..      

[Edited 2013-05-22 16:19:17]


Fly Delta Jets
User currently onlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9435 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 19223 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 15):

So your saying rolls doesn't offer power by the hour on the Trent 1000?

Oh and the BR715 engines are all power by the hour and owned by RR. So clearly they can do so

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):

Ah probably true. Not sure who owns those engines. (Always forget about them)



yep.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19727 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 19174 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 12):
Delta pays the price with higher fuel burn and maintenance, but obviously they have made the evaluation that expensive new airplanes are not their best option.

Which is an odd business model to take, but seems to be working for DL. I'd be curious to ask Mr. Anderson why his fleet strategy is at such variance with those of his competitors at UA and AA.


User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 19129 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
Which is an odd business model to take, but seems to be working for DL. I'd be curious to ask Mr. Anderson why his fleet strategy is at such variance with those of his competitors at UA and AA.

It is working. Cuts CAPEX (is this the right term?) immensely.

I think it's at variance.. because it simply can be. Where else would FL's 717s have gone? Or the ex-TW 757s? Or those MD-90s? If UA/AA wanted them.. DL's model wouldn't be sustainable, but they don't so it is.



Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlinelucky777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 18979 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
Which is an odd business model to take, but seems to be working for DL. I'd be curious to ask Mr. Anderson why his fleet strategy is at such variance with those of his competitors at UA and AA.

Indeed...i would have to assume Delta and AA and UA (along with Southwest, jetBlue etc....) have looked at the exact same numbers with regards to aircraft and come to vastly different outcomes. Delta operates more like an upstart that scours the globe for used aircraft that the majors no longer have a need for wherease AA and UA have been ordering new aircraft by the boatload.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 20087 times:

Quoting rising (Thread starter):
He added that should Boeing hope that its stretched 787 will take sales from the A330, "its prices have to come way down."

Except the A330 does not compete with the 787. The A330 is of course cheaper as result. More appropriate comparison would be 350 vs 787.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9373 posts, RR: 26
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 19877 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
I'd be curious to ask Mr. Anderson why his fleet strategy is at such variance with those of his competitors at UA and AA.

Having a variance in a fleet makes it possible/easier for Delta to add used/second market aircraft to the fleet at its leisure.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 20099 times:

If you want power-by-hour on the 787, you need to sign up for the Boeing Gold Care solution.

GoldCare features engine support option with either the GE's OnPoint solution for the GEnx engines, or RR's integrated lifecycle support for the Trent 1000.

I don't believe manufacturers can offer the power-by-hour solution independently on the engines. This can be a bit of a turn off for large clients that might want engine care, but are seek to do the airframe support via inhouse resources.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4739 posts, RR: 39
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 20034 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25):
Except the A330 does not compete with the 787.

It sure does, especially on the short routes where the B787 long range capabilities are a disadvantage.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25):
The A330 is of course cheaper as result.

Which is exactly why it is competing with the B787, and even with the A350-800.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25):
More appropriate comparison would be 350 vs 787.

Of course, but both these planes are mainly targeting customers who want to fly them long range, although there will be some exceptions of course.

Regarding the B737-MAX, or the A320-NEO, Delta wants to wait and see (or hear) about the real data when the aircraft are in service at the airlines who ordered them first. If these numbers add up, they probably will order either the B737-MAX, or the A320-NEO, or both.  Wink

[Edited 2013-05-22 16:52:19]

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 19931 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 28):
It sure does, especially on the short routes where the B787 long range capabilities are a disadvantage.

That's like saying Honda competes with Mercedes. Sure both will get you from A to B and the Honda could be suitable for many clients, but at the end they are a different class of vehicle.

So if the A330 was so good, Airbus would have not turned to the A350. You might actually remember how turned off the market was to the proposed A330NG as it would fall far short of the promised 787.

If DL wants to compare the A330 to the 787, they can have fun doing it, but it would be like comparing then the 767 to the A350. At the end its apples and oranges and the market pricing reflects this.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEASTERN747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 19644 times:

Ok,,,,,,,What is a 737Max and 320 whatever?

User currently offlinelutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 18732 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 28):
If you want power-by-hour on the 787, you need to sign up for the Boeing Gold Care solution.

GoldCare features engine support option with either the GE's OnPoint solution for the GEnx engines, or RR's integrated lifecycle support for the Trent 1000.

Not true, the engine PBH deals & Gold Care can be separated. Some airlines have gone for LHT/AFI/BA for airframe/ component PBH support, and engine manufacturer for engine PBH


User currently offlineRickNRoll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 830 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 18523 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 29):
That's like saying Honda competes with Mercedes. Sure both will get you from A to B and the Honda could be suitable for many clients, but at the end they are a different class of vehicle.So if the A330 was so good, Airbus would have not turned to the A350. You might actually remember how turned off the market was to the proposed A330NG as it would fall far short of the promised 787.If DL wants to compare the A330 to the 787, they can have fun doing it, but it would be like comparing then the 767 to the A350. At the end its apples and oranges and the market pricing reflects this.

It's all apples and oranges. The airline chooses the plane that's fit's their needs, their business model and price. Which is why A330 manufacturing is expanding. The 787 offers abilities at a price that don't suit some airlines needs. Sometimes they want an apple, sometimes they want an orange. The A350 is not supposed to be just an A330 replacement, but a more capable plane that can also take on the 777W. So it's pricing/capability mix will fit into another area of need for airlines.


User currently offlinebomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 17912 times:

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 30):

Ok,,,,,,,What is a 737Max and 320 whatever?
http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/737family/737max.page?

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...t/a320family/spotlight-on-a320neo/

Peace   



AVIATION - A Vacation In Any Town, I Own Nothing
User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 573 posts, RR: 4
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 17353 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
DL always goes for the best engine available at the time (as they did with the 767 and 772ER), and the GEnx is currently the superior engine for the 787.

How is the GEnx superior, and what makes you think that DL decision makers have that view?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Sorry, but the relationship with GE is obviously the stronger relationship.

I don't see how you could have reached this conclusion.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11):

No choice. On the 777s they could pick an engine they have Rolls.

It's worth noting that the constant difficulties with GE90 reliability have strongly reinforced the perception that the Trent was the right choice on the 77E.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
Which is an odd business model to take, but seems to be working for DL. I'd be curious to ask Mr. Anderson why his fleet strategy is at such variance with those of his competitors at UA and AA.

Yes, capital discipline and focus on shareholder value are extremely odd relative to DL's competitive set. Probably explains why DL doesn't really measure itself against UA/AA except when evaluating operational performance.


User currently onlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9435 posts, RR: 14
Reply 35, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 17303 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
But it depends on the specifics. Delta seems happy with their 763ER Winglets. Which is "cheaper?" Maybe RA is telling us.

For Delta's needs I bet the low ownership cost and fairly low MX numbers is playing a big part of it.

Over time the the 767-300ERs will have to be replaced mostly by 787-8s. As the 767 fleet ages the 18 787-8 orders can start to come in and replace them. Also the 787-9 will be the perfect replacement for the 764s and 332s when that day comes.
I imagine the 777-8/9 and or 787-10 will replace the 777-200s and 333s.
The question is, Delta is basically out of 12+ hour capacity. 777/744 fleet is maxed out, and they may be able to get one more longer haul route out of the 332 fleet. Possibilities in the growth market(mostly Asia) are really becoming limited for the 767 also. (SEA-ICN,NGO and LAX-Japan are about that they have left that is really possible)
So does Delta try to get more 777s and/or 332s or do do they go with the somewhat smaller 787. (or don't bother growing till 2020)
another thing that plays into it, Delta is nicely below its min. in its JV agreement with its pilots. At some point they will have to cut a deal or make a nice little push back into Europe, this will also have a large effect on the 767 fleet.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 23):
t is working. Cuts CAPEX (is this the right term?) immensely.

it is working. The M90s and 717 have fuel burn number comparable to the A320 and the JT8D-200s fuel burn is being offset by next to nothing ownership cost of the 88s. (and MX cost are going somewhat down as Delta looks to the scrap market for parts) Limited replacement for the oldest frames in the fleet are around the corner with 739s.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):

Which is an odd business model to take, but seems to be working for DL. I'd be curious to ask Mr. Anderson why his fleet strategy is at such variance with those of his competitors at UA and AA.

It works for DL because they had the M90 already in fleet. Its a stop gap, but DL is saving a ton of money on them compared to the new shiny jet prices AA and UA (and US) are paying.

the same thing goes for the 717. Both the MD90 and 717s are tanks that can likely fly for another 15-20 years too.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 27):
I don't believe manufacturers can offer the power-by-hour solution independently on the engines. This can be a bit of a turn off for large clients that might want engine care, but are seek to do the airframe support via inhouse resources.

I would bet RR and GE can do power by the hour without Beoing.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 27):
you need to sign up for the Boeing Gold Care solution.

At one point TechOps(pre-merger) was trying to become a Gold Care provider. At the time they would also be going after whatever engine they operated (or both engines if they spilt like the 67)

not sure what/where or if anything happened with that.

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 24):
Indeed...i would have to assume Delta and AA and UA (along with Southwest, jetBlue etc....) have looked at the exact same numbers with regards to aircraft and come to vastly different outcomes. Delta operates more like an upstart that scours the globe for used aircraft that the majors no longer have a need for wherease AA and UA have been ordering new aircraft by the boatload.

This isn't completely true.
You aren't going to see Delta getting a bunch of 757s or M80s. They are going after comparable aircraft. Again, fuel burn M90 v 320 is very comparable. That plus the low ownership cost(because Delta is basically the only carrier who wants them.) makes the favorable to Delta. Also these airplanes will be able to fly for 10-15 maybe even 20 years. Delta wants all of its airplanes to fly for 25 to 30 years and they want to own them. I'm not sure about UA but the large majority of AA's fleet is going to end up being leased. All the 320 ceo, 787s and the bulk of the 737NG fleet are or will be leased. (airbus on the 320s, GE on the 787s) So with that AA could be planning to keep a more fresh fleet.

I am not in the camp that Delta is going to start buying 737NGs that only have 5 years of life left in them. At some point I think you will see Delta' order book start to be comparable to that of UAs.



yep.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Reply 36, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 17090 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 35):
I would bet RR and GE can do power by the hour without Beoing.

I am pretty certain not, or atleast it was not possible in 2011.

Restriction was part of joining GoldCare, with parties being precluded from competing against the Boeing offering by cutting their own deals. Same goes with a host of other vendors like avionics (Honeywell), and down to all the nuts and bolts providers even.

Basically selling point for vendors was choice to join GoldCare and be exclusive with Boeing with guaranteed flow of business and preset rates, or do their own thing and take the risk of market forces.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinecschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1249 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 15879 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 18):
If Boeing was smart and acted completely as an independent company interested in maximizing profit, the total lifecycle costs for the 737-900ER would be the same as the 737 MAX-9. That means for all the dollars that were saved with the MAX's operating efficiency improvements, the purchase price would be equivalently raised. That doesn't actually happen in real life with imperfect competition, but on paper, it makes economic sense.

Economic theory and business reality rarely are the same thing. Reality is so much more complicated. For example, Allegiant adding plane types. They have a lot of very interesting presentation slides showing total costs of MD's vs. the Airbus, how the 757's can be used to Hawaii, etc. But the reality of jumping into ETOPS, mechanical issues, etc., aren't easily quantified, especially without experience, and reality catches up with numbers on paper.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 28):
Regarding the B737-MAX, or the A320-NEO, Delta wants to wait and see (or hear) about the real data when the aircraft are in service at the airlines who ordered them first. If these numbers add up, they probably will order either the B737-MAX, or the A320-NEO, or both

Or wait 15 years and get a lot of them used.  
Quoting ghifty (Reply 23):
Cuts CAPEX (is this the right term?) immensely.

Yes, that's the right term. And since RA referred to capital cost, sounds like buying vs. operating leases.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6920 posts, RR: 63
Reply 38, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 14353 times:

Quoting rising (Thread starter):
We operate 33 A330s

Who's going to tell him it's 32?  
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
I expect DL will likely place a separate order for the 789 with GEnx engines

Surely there's a typo here? You don't mean 'expect', you mean 'hope'.


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2013 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 13301 times:

With Delta's recent buying pattern, will they be buying secondhand 737NGs and A320s as other operators replace theirs?

Might be a good interim buy to tie them over until the all new narrowbodies are finally launched.



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6476 posts, RR: 9
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 12804 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11):
Again, for the last time, as long as Delta fixes it, I couldn't honestly give two s...craps what they fly or who makes it. Do you understand now. I can't possibly type it any slower.

Didn't you at one time make the statement that you would never fly on an airbus product or work for an airline that flew them. I also believe you made the statement that you would never fly on an airline that had RA as CEO. Have you changed your mind about those two statements?


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5582 posts, RR: 5
Reply 41, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 12359 times:

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 39):
With Delta's recent buying pattern, will they be buying secondhand 737NGs and A320s as other operators replace theirs?

The problem is that unless they get, say, the ex-FR frames at 8 years old (which will have 15 years left in them) then they don't make them like they used too   



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 42, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 12053 times:

Quoting ghifty (Reply 17):
The 787 really is "sooo much cheaper to operate." That's not debatable. Nor is the fact that ordering new-build 787s has a greater financial burden than continuing to operate already-owned 767s. RA, and Delta in general, is looking at the bigger picture.

Sigh. Operating costs traditionally include the cost of your equipment. So, like you say. The 787 is expensive. A Dreamliner fleet may be more expensive to deploy than 767s. It's as simple as that.


User currently onlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1610 posts, RR: 1
Reply 43, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10907 times:

Quoting rising (Thread starter):
He added that should Boeing hope that its stretched 787 will take sales from the A330, "its prices have to come way down."

Ah, negotiations on NW's 787 order have restarted again     Probably these will include the 787-9 and -10s for expansion   

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 35):
Over time the the 767-300ERs will have to be replaced mostly by 787-8s. As the 767 fleet ages the 18 787-8 orders can start to come in and replace them. Also the 787-9 will be the perfect replacement for the 764s and 332s when that day comes.
I imagine the 777-8/9 and or 787-10 will replace the 777-200s and 333s.

I guess the 777s and A330s will stay till the end of their useful life, which by DL standards, should be quite while. It will be a very interesting battle to see what will replace DL's 744s. They should be able to last until 2020, so the 777-9X should have a decent chance. But it's gonna be a tough battle with the A350-1000 though
  

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 35):
Delta is basically out of 12+ hour capacity. 777/744 fleet is maxed out, and they may be able to get one more longer haul route out of the 332 fleet

So, when DL wants to expand their long-haul routes before 2020 (and I'd be surprised if they won't), it will probably look at some used A330s. With 787 deliveries now speeding up, we should see some A330s appearing on the used market...

[Edited 2013-05-23 07:45:05]


146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlinejustloveplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1057 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days ago) and read 8441 times:

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 24):

Indeed...i would have to assume Delta and AA and UA (along with Southwest, jetBlue etc....) have looked at the exact same numbers with regards to aircraft and come to vastly different outcomes. Delta operates more like an upstart that scours the globe for used aircraft that the majors no longer have a need for wherease AA and UA have been ordering new aircraft by the boatload.

Delta' s strategy is in between UA/AA and Southwest. Southwest buys new and holds onto aircraft till they are done. I think they own most of their airplanes like NW. Delta buys used and holds.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 35):
I am not in the camp that Delta is going to start buying 737NGs that only have 5 years of life left in them. At some point I think you will see Delta' order book start to be comparable to that of UAs.

See above it might approach Southwest's but I don' think it will reach it. Per the discussions on this thread, I think Delta will be flying 737-900's and 320's and 330's for a long time. 777's I am not so sure about, unless they buy EK's old frames and EK will have plenty.


User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 882 posts, RR: 11
Reply 45, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7823 times:

What is kind of interesting to me is the possibility that Delta hordes cash through these kind of things and then might be willing to place a large order to get to the front of the line for whatever follows the 737/A320. If they can tempt B or A to pursue that kind of project they could get the drop on everyone else who would just be putting their newly financed into full service. Delta will have a low debt level and plenty of cash where they could basically cut short the life of the new narrowbodies in the US I would think, again assuming someone has something compelling to sell them.

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7192 posts, RR: 13
Reply 46, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7700 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
Quoting rising (Thread starter):
"But the charts never have the capital cost, so it is a little bit of a fallacy to analyze airplanes without the capital costs included."

That surprises me. In nearly every other industry, total cost of operation is pretty much standard. In the industry I'm in, which is capital intensive to break into, the tax treatment of various purchasing options for the customer is always a part of the sales presentation.

I wasn't sure what this really meant. It is true that the manufacturers show cost comparisons that make their airplane look the best. It is also true that if an airplane saves 5% on operating costs and Boeing wants 3% of it in their pocket in the form of higher purchase price. It's Delta's job to do their own analysis and factor everything in. His comment is the equivalent of going to a car dealer and saying "will I save money if I buy your car?" So, not sure what he was doing other than justifying letting their fleet get older. That may be the way to go, but it might not. They probably feel like they are eliminating so many gas-guzzling CRJs that they are already massively improving their fuel exposure and need to do little else for the time being. Whether or not they own a refinery every airline has to make a bet on the direction of oil prices. They are betting fuel will not increase by much.


User currently offlineaajfksjubklyn From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7663 times:

With an average fleet age of 17.2 years, the last thing they need to be doing is passing up new airplanes????? AA is a distant 2nd w/ 14.8 years but that is getting better and better every month.

User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 48, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7618 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 46):
His comment is the equivalent of going to a car dealer and saying "will I save money if I buy your car?"

He is chiding the airframe makers for saying that. "Lower seat-mile costs" ad nauseum.

Sometimes a DC-10 has cheaper seat-mile cost, if you only fly 1 flight per year. Then, a 787 would have _higher_ seat-mile costs, including ownership... maybe 50 times higher than the DC-10.

Even under normal circumstances, in the fluid lease market, all aircraft in a class have about the same operating cost. So I took his comment to mean the sales pitches are a little bit disingenuous. Maybe if they said "variable seat-mile costs," it would be more correct.


User currently offlinedelta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 49, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7092 times:

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 47):
With an average fleet age of 17.2 years, the last thing they need to be doing is passing up new airplanes?????

To the average flyer, that is irrelevant. As long as the inside is nice, most don't know how old the plane is. I said before, my mom thought she was on a new plane because the interiors had been upgraded-and it was an MD-88.
What's more important is putting butts in seats, making a profit, and paying down debt-all of which DL has been doing quite well.



From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 50, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7049 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 46):
I wasn't sure what this really meant.

The best salespeople should know their own and their prospect's business well enough that if one asked, "what's your best deal we can look at," the salesperson has a pretty good idea of what to present. That's what puts the selling into sales. The best salespeople can craft a well-rounded deal, rather than just passing over some brochures for you to look over later.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1947 posts, RR: 2
Reply 51, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7038 times:

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 47):
With an average fleet age of 17.2 years, the last thing they need to be doing is passing up new airplanes????? AA is a distant 2nd w/ 14.8 years but that is getting better and better every month.

Eventually it will catch up with them. DL's current strategy is for the short-term and that is reflected in their recent financials. Long-term though it's risky. You're putting yourself into a box with little control of the situation. The capital required for inevitable fleet renewal keeps growing larger and larger. And trying to satisfy that need with used airplanes takes things out of your control. The supply may not be there when you need it. It's like taking a break on a long treadmill. You get a breather and come back stronger, but your task just got a lot harder to overcome.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6476 posts, RR: 9
Reply 52, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6684 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 51):
Eventually it will catch up with them. DL's current strategy is for the short-term and that is reflected in their recent financials. Long-term though it's risky.

Do you really think that Delta hasn't thought abut all that you point out? I'll place my money on RA rather than Anet members.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 53, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6494 times:

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 43):
So, when DL wants to expand their long-haul routes before 2020 (and I'd be surprised if they won't), it will probably look at some used A330s. With 787 deliveries now speeding up, we should see some A330s appearing on the used market...

It'll be interesting to see. The idea behind the merger was to take two airlines sized to compete with each other and gain synergy by putting the metal in places it could be used best, thus freeing up the need to add capacity.

Both airlines had WBs awaiting delivery at the time of the merger and some of these are still coming in.

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 47):
With an average fleet age of 17.2 years, the last thing they need to be doing is passing up new airplanes?????

The DC-9s are (almost all?) parked, but MD-90s and 717s are coming in, so over time it seems they will still have a high average fleet age.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4106 posts, RR: 5
Reply 54, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6311 times:

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 44):
Delta' s strategy is in between UA/AA and Southwest. Southwest buys new and holds onto aircraft till they are done.

Take a look at the age of AA's MD80s or UA's 757s...I'd say they have the same strategy as you mention for WN.


User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1541 posts, RR: 2
Reply 55, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day ago) and read 6267 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Good for Delta as they seem to understand what most other airlines do not---that is that there is real value in quality used a/c which can be purchased at a fraction of the cost of new a/c ----it just kills me to see young a/c retired before they should be retired and Delta understands this and takes advantage

User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3754 posts, RR: 2
Reply 56, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day ago) and read 6205 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 54):
UA's 757s

Like AA and the Mad Dogs, UA is retiring the oldest of the sUA 757s (with Pratts) fast - plus they're selling a bunch of the sUA 757s to FedEx.

The Rolls-powered sCO birds are newer and will stay in the UA fleet (both 752 and 753) for quite some time.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19727 posts, RR: 58
Reply 57, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day ago) and read 6174 times:

Quoting ghifty (Reply 23):

It is working. Cuts CAPEX (is this the right term?) immensely.

But at the expense of operating expense. If you have a fleet with high operating costs and low ownership costs (which is the case with an older fleet in which most or all of the lease is paid off and the fleet is depreciated), the trick is to go for lower fleet utilization. If you have a shiny new fleet with high capital costs but low operating costs, then you want to maximize fleet utilization (which is what companies like EK and FR do, as different as their business models are on all other fronts).

G4, on the other hand, uses older aircraft but keeps fleet utilization low. So their business model for fleet management is about the opposite of FR, even though their business models on other fronts are very similar.

But DL is somewhere inbetween right now. Their fleet is older, but not ancient (unlike NW's DC-9 and DC-10 fleet around 2000). It may be that taking on more used aircraft will help them to decrease fleet utilization while maintaining adequate capacity. It just doesn't seem to be the way that the other two majors are managing their fleets and I wonder what Mr. Anderson feels is different about DL that this model of operation will work better for his airline than it would work for a rather similar competitor like AA or UA.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 49):
To the average flyer, that is irrelevant. As long as the inside is nice, most don't know how old the plane is. I said before, my mom thought she was on a new plane because the interiors had been upgraded-and it was an MD-88.

It's true. The passenger cabins on the PMNW DC-9's are almost indistinguishable from the 717 cabin. There are some minor differences, but it really takes an expert to spot them.


User currently offlineProst From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1048 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (1 year 4 months 23 hours ago) and read 6071 times:

Expanding on what Doc Lightning said, Delta also pulls down flying extensively during the winter months, and shiny expensive new airplanes wouldn't be utilized as much.

I wonder what the average fleet age when all of the 737-900ERs come on to the property will be.


User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2005 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 4 months 23 hours ago) and read 5968 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 41):
The problem is that unless they get, say, the ex-FR frames at 8 years old (which will have 15 years left in them) then they don't make them like they used too

This is exactly the scenario I have been thinking about. I figure when FR starts dumping it's 738s DL will pick up at least a dozen of them.


User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 8
Reply 60, posted (1 year 4 months 23 hours ago) and read 5957 times:

Quoting rising (Thread starter):

"The airplane salesmen always show you charts that have these big operating savings," Anderson said. "But the charts never have the capital cost, so it is a little bit of a fallacy to analyze airplanes without the capital costs included."

I agree with this statement 100%



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6476 posts, RR: 9
Reply 61, posted (1 year 4 months 22 hours ago) and read 5850 times:

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 44):
Delta' s strategy is in between UA/AA and Southwest. Southwest buys new and holds onto aircraft till they are done. I think they own most of their airplanes like NW. Delta buys used and holds.

In the Delta forum section of Pilot Central has several messages from pilots talking about getting 10 A330-200 aicraft and 30 A321 aircraft. Doesn't say new or used. Kind of goes against what RA is saying but who knows


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6537 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (1 year 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 5664 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 61):
In the Delta forum section of Pilot Central has several messages from pilots talking about getting 10 A330-200 aicraft and 30 A321 aircraft. Doesn't say new or used. Kind of goes against what RA is saying but who knows

The A321 rumor has been going on for years. With the 739ER order, DL has no real need for the A321. Furthermore, the pilot contracts would have to be renegotiated again, since even the current contract does not include an A321 payscale, and I don't think DL wants to go through that hassle again considering how recently the current contract was ratified by pilots.

Now the A321neo may happen, however, I still expect the 737MAX will have the overall advantage, and I don't expect an order for either anytime soon.

[Edited 2013-05-24 15:57:42]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently onlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5279 posts, RR: 24
Reply 63, posted (1 year 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 5587 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 62):
The A321 rumor has been going on for years. With the 739ER order, DL has no need for the A321. Furthermore, the pilot contracts would have to be renegotiated again, since even the current contract does not include an A321 payscale, and I don't think DL wants to go through that hassle again considering how recently the current contract was ratified by pilots.

Not this again. Individual clauses in contracts can be renegotiated, and are not that big of a deal. If DL feels that the A321 is right for them, then they'll go ahead and add a payscale for the aircraft. Not having an A321 payscale

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 62):
Now the A321neo may happen, however, I still expect hope the 737MAX will have the overall advantage .

Fixed that for you.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6537 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (1 year 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 5557 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 63):
Fixed that for you.

No, I really do EXPECT the 737MAX will have the advantage due to Boeing's unwillingness to lose one of their most important customers to Airbus, which the 739ER order has already proven my point. Boeing provided DL a really sweet deal on the 739ER order that Airbus was unable to match, and I expect Boeing will do the same for a 737 MAX order. Boeing has already lost some important customers to Airbus, and cannot afford to lose DL.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 8
Reply 65, posted (1 year 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 5530 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 64):
No, I really do EXPECT the 737MAX will have the advantage due to Boeing's unwillingness to lose one of their most important customers to Airbus, which the 739ER order has already proven my point. Boeing provided DL a really sweet deal on the 739ER order that Airbus was unable to match, and I expect Boeing will do the same for a 737 MAX order. Boeing has already lost some important customers to Airbus, and cannot afford to lose DL.

The thing is once DL gets new 739ER, what's the point of them ever getting the MAX? There just doesn't seem to be much of a difference between the 900ER and the MAX anyway.

Boeing really needs to get real -- US airlines want and need a 757 replacement.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6537 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (1 year 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 5524 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 65):
The thing is once DL gets new 739ER, what's the point of them ever getting the MAX? There just doesn't seem to be much of a difference between the 900ER and the MAX anyway.

The 737MAX will eventually be needed to replace the MD-88 fleet and some additional A320s and 757s, however, I don't see it happening anytime soon.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 8
Reply 67, posted (1 year 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 5509 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 66):

The 737MAX will eventually be needed to replace the MD-88 fleet and some additional A320s and 757s, however, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Not sure that the MAX is for replacing M88s at all. That's what the 717s are for.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 68, posted (1 year 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 5436 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 67):
Not sure that the MAX is for replacing M88s at all. That's what the 717s are for.

The MD88s aren't going anywhere anytime soon. In 20 years we may be barraged with "when will DL retire the MD88" threads on A.net.  


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6537 posts, RR: 2
Reply 69, posted (1 year 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 5385 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 67):

Not sure that the MAX is for replacing M88s at all. That's what the 717s are for.

No, the 717s are to upsize routes currently served by larger RJs (CR7/CR9/E170/E175), which will in turn take over most 50-seat RJ routes.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19727 posts, RR: 58
Reply 70, posted (1 year 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 5345 times:

Quoting Prost (Reply 58):
Expanding on what Doc Lightning said, Delta also pulls down flying extensively during the winter months, and shiny expensive new airplanes wouldn't be utilized as much.

The trick is to keep using the shiny planes and keep the old planes on the ground more.


User currently offlinePresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 661 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (1 year 4 months 17 hours ago) and read 5231 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Sorry, but RR is no longer part of the IAE consortium.

It no longer has an equity stake in the consortium, but it still supplies the engine components to IAE that it did before the buy-out, so, in effect, it still has a stake.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5471 posts, RR: 30
Reply 72, posted (1 year 4 months 17 hours ago) and read 5241 times:

Quoting B757forever (Reply 68):
The MD88s aren't going anywhere anytime soon. In 20 years we may be barraged with "when will DL retire the MD88" threads on A.net

I wonder if any of the airlines with fleets of MD's has tested out the Dugan mod;

http://www.dugankinetics.com/

http://www.dugankinetics.com/public/uploads/content/8/FlightProfileChart_April2013.jpg



What the...?
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1947 posts, RR: 2
Reply 73, posted (1 year 4 months 16 hours ago) and read 5054 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 52):

Do you really think that Delta hasn't thought abut all that you point out? I'll place my money on RA rather than Anet members.

Where did I say that they haven't thought about the pro and cons of their strategy? That's right, I didn't.

Of course they've thought it over. Whether or not they've done the thinking part of it well and consequently made the right choice is the question that no amount of expertise can guarantee. Clearly there's differing strategies in the airline industry. Not all of them will be right.


User currently offlineFlyingGoat From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (1 year 4 months 16 hours ago) and read 5023 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 72):

I wonder if any of the airlines with fleets of MD's has tested out the Dugan mod;

Thanks for posting that! I saw that plane a couple weeks ago and wondered what the deal with it was.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 1159 posts, RR: 2
Reply 75, posted (1 year 4 months 16 hours ago) and read 5017 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 72):
I wonder if any of the airlines with fleets of MD's has tested out the Dugan mod

American did. Somebody posted about it in another thread last year and stated that the SFC on the test aircraft that American installed it on actually went up.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6476 posts, RR: 9
Reply 76, posted (1 year 4 months 7 hours ago) and read 4625 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 64):
Boeing provided DL a really sweet deal on the 739ER order that Airbus was unable to match,

Can you back up that statement with actual numbers?


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 4 months 6 hours ago) and read 4562 times:

I wonder why DL did not snatch all the 787 terrible teens as they love el cheapo airframes? Price seems more important than efficiency at DL? Had they gone for all they could have had a bargain by Boeing I am sure.

User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 78, posted (1 year 4 months 5 hours ago) and read 4447 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 77):
I wonder why DL did not snatch all the 787 terrible teens as they love el cheapo airframes?

I don't see DL wanting 10 new widebodies on short order.

They're too happy running their 767s till they can't run any more.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6476 posts, RR: 9
Reply 79, posted (1 year 4 months 5 hours ago) and read 4394 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 77):
wonder why DL did not snatch all the 787 terrible teens as they love el cheapo airframes

I don''t now exactly what you mean by the terrible teens but I am sure th 787 would have cost a lot more than the equal number of A330-200's


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 80, posted (1 year 4 months 5 hours ago) and read 4332 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 77):
I wonder why DL did not snatch all the 787 terrible teens as they love el cheapo airframes? Price seems more important than efficiency at DL? Had they gone for all they could have had a bargain by Boeing I am sure.

Cheap and reliable. The "terrible teens" may be one, but are not the other. And in the end, reliability issues come with their own cost, so it's dubious that they are cheap to begin with.

I'm not sure why people think DL's strategy to avoid the brand new models is so odd. People do that with cars - who wants to buy the first car to roll out of an assembly line if that's a brand new model? They always have issues with them. Most of them get fixed, but some don't really.

[Edited 2013-05-25 07:12:39]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinebkflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 4 months 4 hours ago) and read 4249 times:

You also have to keep in mind the stage length various aircraft are flying. The majority of fuel savings is during cruise. So on shorter segments, the cost of operation for the MadDog fleet is not as large as everyone thinks. When you then take the cost of ownership into account, it becomes that much more of a wash. They are very well suited to a lot of routes out of ATL to other SE destinations where the fuel savings is just not great enough to overcome the low cost of ownership.

DL is also following the NW model in buying a lot of used MD frames for parts. I remember reading that at one point NW owned almost all of the engines for the DC9. Rather than overhaul, they would just swap it out with one that was in storage, which would help maintenance costs. Maybe someone can elaborate on that.

Don't forget, the MD90's have the same V2500 engine that is on the Airbus A320. While not as capable due to a smaller wing, Delta basically obtained the capacity of an A320 for a fraction of the cost and an efficient high-bypass turbo fan to boot. With the soon to start cockpit upgrades for both the MD80 and MD90, these planes are going to be around for a long time.

In short, DL has decided to invest in the interiors of the aircraft and other airport amenities rather than just buying new planes. This has allowed them to use $$ in other ways - like paying off over $7 Billion in debt in just a few years; and investing in other airlines - Aeromexico, Virgin Atlantic, GOL, etc.....


User currently offlinemsp747 From United States of America, joined May 2010, 323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (1 year 4 months 4 hours ago) and read 4257 times:

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 43):
It will be a very interesting battle to see what will replace DL's 744s. They should be able to last until 2020, so the 777-9X should have a decent chance. But it's gonna be a tough battle with the A350-1000 though

Or they could place a big order for 773's at bargain prices to help Boeing cover those final slots before the introduction of the 779. Or they might just go for used 773's when all the carriers from the middle east and asia are trying to dump their relatively new 773's for the latest technology. Maybe a mixture of new and used. I could also see DL ordering new 333's and 737NG for next to nothing. More 737's wouldn't surprise me at all, especially since Boeing is letting airlines upgrade to the MAX. They could end up with a lot of NG slots to fill


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5471 posts, RR: 30
Reply 83, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3874 times:

Quoting bkflyguy (Reply 81):
While not as capable due to a smaller wing,

I wonder if winglets would significantly improve the performance of the MD-90.



What the...?
User currently onlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9435 posts, RR: 14
Reply 84, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3736 times:

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 34):

It's worth noting that the constant difficulties with GE90 reliability have strongly reinforced the perception that the Trent was the right choice on the 77E.

Not only this but with only two shops in the world that can overhaul the GE90, both of which not being in the US, and the already high cost of the GE90 overhaul likely makes it the most costly engine in the fleet by far.

Oh course part of this could be getting fixed. A big issue for Delta ever opening a T800 or GE90 overhaul line has supposedly been fixed. Could be interesting times ahead.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 43):

So, when DL wants to expand their long-haul routes before 2020 (and I'd be surprised if they won't), it will probably look at some used A330s. With 787 deliveries now speeding up, we should see some A330s appearing on the used market...

The issue with this is range. When looking at the likely areas for growth, the 332 doesn't really add much to Delta's fleet.
India and Asia(from its likely areas of growth, ATL,JFK and LAX/SEA) is going to need more range. (SEA doesn't but where is Delta really going to grow? They have the 332 slack to add HKG, ICN/NGO would likely be 767s anyways.)

*note, the India thing I am kinda off assuming that Jet is going to end up in SkyTeam soon v later*

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 44):
777's I am not so sure about, unless they buy EK's old frames and EK will have plenty.

They can order new planes you know.......

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 44):
320's

getting replaced with 739s

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 47):
With an average fleet age of 17.2 years, the last thing they need to be doing is passing up new airplanes?????

They aren't passing up new aircraft. The M90s/717s have 10-20 years left in them and have 737s on order.

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 47):
AA is a distant 2nd w/ 14.8 years but that is getting better and better every month.

and losing money and won't own the majority of their fleet. Basically the complete opposite of Delta

Quoting Prost (Reply 58):
I wonder what the average fleet age when all of the 737-900ERs come on to the property will be.

Good bit lower as 20+ year old 767,757s and 320s will be getting parked. Also the few DC9s getting parked will reduce this number.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 62):
Furthermore, the pilot contracts would have to be renegotiated again, since even the current contract does not include an A321 payscale, and I don't think DL wants to go through that hassle again considering how recently the current contract was ratified by pilots.

*sigh* mountain out of a blade of grass.
likely by the time any 321s would come, it'll be contract time again (IIRC only a 3 year deal) and do you not expect the pilots to agree to something? You think they are going to turn away airplanes? Uh yeah good luck with that.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 65):

The thing is once DL gets new 739ER, what's the point of them ever getting the MAX? There just doesn't seem to be much of a difference between the 900ER and the MAX anyway.

ever? uhh the 88s will likely start to get close to getting parked in 2020ish. They have no need for the MAX now, as the NG is a fine airplane. In 2020-2023 the NG should be gone and they won't be able to get anything (new) other than the MAX.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 67):
That's what the 717s are for.

no it isn't. 88/90s are getting new cockpits with the plan of them being around 10(88)-20(90) years.



yep.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Details&numbers About 737MAX And A320NEO posted Wed Oct 12 2011 05:18:55 by rheinwaldner
Special Liveries On The Exterior And Interior posted Wed Nov 4 2009 08:29:22 by Mirrodie
Marketing Gimmicks On The 787 And A350? posted Wed Apr 1 2009 11:43:00 by CEO@AFG
Captain Who Is Rated On The 757 And 737 posted Tue Sep 9 2008 10:06:15 by 767nutter
Brakes Being Tested On The 380 And 777 posted Sun Aug 26 2007 06:35:52 by Mycrj17
On The News: New Airport For NYC? posted Tue Feb 14 2006 08:36:12 by Rampart
ST Article On The A350 And US Airways... posted Fri May 20 2005 14:39:40 by BoeingBus
EK On The 772LR And 787 posted Sat Mar 26 2005 17:27:54 by N60659
Shopping On The A380 And Turbulence posted Tue Dec 14 2004 19:50:57 by AirWales
My Opinion On The A380 And The 747 posted Sun Aug 8 2004 18:49:24 by KiwiNanday