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Why Only One US Airline To Guam?  
User currently offlineMrBuzzcut From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 64 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11506 times:

I'm wondering why there is only one airline, (UA) operating flights from the US to GUM. With the Marines making the move from Okinawa over the next few years, you'd think somebody, especially an island/Asia focused airline like HA would have moved into the market by now, even as a stopover for flights to elsewhere in Asia. Are load factors weak enough on UA that nobody else is willing to compete?

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2128 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11503 times:

DL also flies to GUM, but from Japan, a former NW route. NW even had Airlink service in the Marianas for a few years.


Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlineMrBuzzcut From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11408 times:

I guess I should clarify, I was talking about flights from the US to Guam, without a stopover in another country. Stopping over in Japan requires going through customs (hence, a passport and extra hassle) that flying from HI or the mainland does not. I'm sure the airlines' beancounters have considered it, I just wonder what makes not viable, especially for a carrier like HA.

User currently onlineQ From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11377 times:

Long time ago, I don't remember name of airline was nonstop L:AX-Guam on a DC-8 back in 1980's. Isn't? What name of airline was?

Q


User currently offlineHNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11356 times:

HA many years ago tried it, but CO, now UA really has a lock on the market. The yields and high loads make their flights between HNL-GUM very equitable. However, not enough traffic to support two carriers without both of them seeing red ink.


Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11283 times:

You can transit Japan sans customs. Its something called a transit without isa, something we Americans need to learn about, see other threads about how backwards the US is inthis regard. Back to the topic, transiting Japan s no biggie.

User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11254 times:

Quoting MrBuzzcut (Reply 2):
Stopping over in Japan requires going through customs (hence, a passport and extra hassle) that flying from HI or the mainland does not.

Japan is not America.

Only we have such an arcane system for transiting passengers.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25543 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11222 times:

Maybe you don't realize how small the market to/from Guam really is.

In all of 2012 only 253,242 folks traveled to or from Guam from all the 50 states. That's less than 350 daily each-way. It seems UA has this well covered with its HNL nonstop and island-hopper services or even via Japan for those seeking direct nonstops to places like NYC or DC.

In comparison Guam had over 2.5 million foreign arrivals.

The Guam-US market is tiny compared to what the Guam-Far East market is.

So yes DL or HA could try a HNL-GUM run of their own, but demand is pretty small, and even with long term military build up is not going to magically grow by any multiples.

[Edited 2013-05-23 21:32:42]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3305 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10795 times:

Quoting HNL-Jack" class="quote" target="_blank">HNL-Jack (Reply 4):
HA many years ago tried it,

Wasn't HNL-GUM also operated by AQ with wet leased DC-10's? Aloha Pacific, IIRC. And of course before that was BN.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 845 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10598 times:

Quoting timpdx (Reply 5):
You can transit Japan sans customs. Its something called a transit without isa, something we Americans need to learn about, see other threads about how backwards the US is inthis regard. Back to the topic, transiting Japan s no biggie.

But will DL let you board the flight in the U.S. without a passport in hand even if your final destination is GUM?


User currently offlineb737100 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10568 times:

When TWA had the round the world service, There was a B707 flight that flew LAX/HNL/GUM as the 1st two legs, then on to OKA I think........


Boeing 737 sunjet service
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10503 times:

DL and UA both serve Guam an Island of 160,000 ... Guam has the most airline service per capita of any US city

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23086 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 10182 times:

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 9):
But will DL let you board the flight in the U.S. without a passport in hand even if your final destination is GUM?

No. How would that work an arrival in GUM with a planeful of Japanese tourists who need to clear immigration and customs?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3448 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 10162 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 11):
Guam has the most airline service per capita of any US city

That would be a great stat if it was true. Just not sure it is. 1.3 Million enplanements vs SFO 880k population with 44.5 Million emplanements.

tortugamon


User currently onlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 10164 times:

Quoting timpdx (Reply 5):
Its something called a transit without isa, something we Americans need to learn about, see other threads about how backwards the US is inthis regard.

The U.S. permitted sterile international transit before 9/11. You remember the significance of 9/11 to the airline industry and national security, right?


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 10065 times:

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 14):
You remember the significance of 9/11 to the airline industry and national security, right?

Tell me--and how exactly does forcing everyone through customs help national security?



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently onlineadamh8297 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 10054 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 11):
DL and UA both serve Guam an Island of 160,000 ... Guam has the most airline service per capita of any US city

It technically is a hub as well.

Also not mentioned here, from the east coast its a bit shorter getting to guam via NRT.

EWR-NRT-GUM = 8290
EWR-HNL-GUM = 8763

BOS-EWR-NRT-GUM = 8490
BOS-SFO-HNL-GUM = 8903

Also - if you are travelling in the front of the plane any mainland US-NRT flight has some sort of lie flat while the GUM flights from HNL do not.


User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9915 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Maybe you don't realize how small the market to/from Guam really is.

In all of 2012 only 253,242 folks traveled to or from Guam from all the 50 states. That's less than 350 daily each-way. It seems UA has this well covered with its HNL nonstop and island-hopper services or even via Japan for those seeking direct nonstops to places like NYC or DC.

Also several people going to and from Guam fly Space A on military aircraft daily and they would not likely change to a new airline when they can fly basically free.



“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9661 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9649 times:

The GUM-US Mainland market is very small. GUM is popular for Asia tourists, but way too far for most Americans. The military isn't a big enough customer to support more than 2 US airlines. Has anyone ever met an American that took a vacation to Guam (excluding exotic scuba travel to outlying islands)?

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):
Quoting MrBuzzcut (Reply 2):
Stopping over in Japan requires going through customs (hence, a passport and extra hassle) that flying from HI or the mainland does not.

Japan is not America.

Only we have such an arcane system for transiting passengers.

He was correct. You don't have to go through customs in Japan, but you do have to go through the extra hassle of customs and immigration in the United States upon arrival since you came from an international flight.

Quoting timpdx (Reply 5):
You can transit Japan sans customs. Its something called a transit without isa, something we Americans need to learn about, see other threads about how backwards the US is inthis regard. Back to the topic, transiting Japan s no biggie.

Transiting in Japan requires a passport and going through immigration upon arrival back in the US, which is not required from HNL. However there is a partial level of immigration control and customs control on the GUM-States flights since you have to prove residency since Guam has a different visa waiver program.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2001 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9262 times:

I flew GUM-HNL in April 1975 on a PA B3F, just prior to the fall of Saigon, where the flight originated. Worst flight I was ever on. I flew into GUM on JAL from HND. At the time, GUM was a big tourist destination for the Japanese. Only other service I know of at the time was the 727 Island Hopper on CO-Air Micronesia from HNL, and they were also operating their DC-6B, N90961, on a few routes from GUM to islands that could not accommodate the 727.

User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3010 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9094 times:
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Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 14):
The U.S. permitted sterile international transit before 9/11. You remember the significance of 9/11 to the airline industry and national security, right?

Yes but that most tragic of events occurred using DOMESTIC flights right !


User currently onlinecopter808 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1092 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8989 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):
Only we have such an arcane system for transiting passengers.

I seem to recall that before 9-11 we were pretty normal in regards to transit visas.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 15):
Tell me--and how exactly does forcing everyone through customs help national security?

Apparently it helps a great deal--just ask TSA and our wonderfully intelligent people in Washington!! Don't ask ME, I can't even imagine how it might help. I'm pretty familiar with how it HURTS our country though. Money spent during in-transit layovers gets spent in another country! (Oh dear, don't let me even get started on this topic!!!)

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 18):
Transiting in Japan requires a passport and going through immigration upon arrival back in the US, which is not required from HNL. However there is a partial level of immigration control and customs control on the GUM-States flights since you have to prove residency since Guam has a different visa waiver program.

Going from GUM to the US is more practical going through NRT. When you get to NRT you go through security and show your passport, then wait for your flight in the departure area. Going through HNL requires you to go through a simple immigration pre clearance in GUM, but then after arriving in HNL you have to go to bag claim, pick up your bag, go through customs, recheck the bag, go through the security line, then back to the gate!!! I suspect this idea came from those same people in Washington!


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6186 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8487 times:

Quoting copter808 (Reply 21):
Apparently it helps a great deal--just ask TSA and our wonderfully intelligent people in Washington!! Don't ask ME, I can't even imagine how it might help. I'm pretty familiar with how it HURTS our country though. Money spent during in-transit layovers gets spent in another country! (Oh dear, don't let me even get started on this topic!!!)

One of the countries that has benefitted the most is Panama.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently onlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1666 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8275 times:

Quoting MrBuzzcut (Reply 2):
Stopping over in Japan requires going through customs (hence, a passport and extra hassle) that flying from HI or the mainland does not.
Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 9):
But will DL let you board the flight in the U.S. without a passport in hand even if your final destination is GUM?

I guess there is some inconvenience with going through customs on arrival from Japan (though it's not going to be that big of a deal when you consider the travel time required in the first place), but I can't imagine there are many people who travel from the US50 to GUM that don't already have a passport anyhow.


User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8190 times:

SFO Metro is much more than 880,000 you have to factor in everyone living within driving disitance of the airport, not just the city limits of SFO.. Guam metro is 160,000 bay area 7,000,000 plus so about 44 times more 1,300,000 x 44 is 57 mil

25 airbazar : That still exists in ANC, and JFK allowed that for the pax of JL's NRT-JFK-GRU long after 9/11. Proof that sterile transit has absolutely nothing to
26 cv880 : Plus SFO is in San Mateo County, not San Francisco.
27 Post contains images legacyins : I find amazing how this topic has drifted so far from the original question on why only one US Airline to Guam.
28 Roseflyer : True. However the O/P was wrong because there are actually 2 US carriers in GUM, but correct in that only one has nonstop service to the US from GUM.
29 BoeingGuy : I believe that administratively speaking, SFO is considered part of the city and country of San Francisco, as are the Farrelon Islands and some place
30 Post contains images legacyins : I was thinking more about the people who like to discuss the Immigration policies of the US.
31 flaps30 : Could that have been Braniff? I am almost certain they once flew from LAX-Guam nonstop on a 747SP. It may have been short lived, but I am pretty sure
32 flaps30 : Well I guess I just answered my own question. Check out departedflights.com and click on the past timetables and then click on the Braniff timetable
33 Viscount724 : Yes, I'm almost certain Braniff is the only carrier to have operated nonstop from the U.S. mainland to Guam. It was an intermediate stop to HKG and S
34 YULWinterSkies : Certainly, but these flights require you to have a passport as they are international flights. You get into the US from abroad at either end (GUM or
35 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Guam is a Japanese beach destination. That is why both Continental Micronesia and Northwest Airlines operated fights from various cities in Japan to
36 KC135TopBoom : Guam is an island with 19 small cities, towns, and villages on it. San Francisco is one city in the 9 county San Francisco Bay Area, with more than 7
37 WROORD : Not to offend anyone, but most Americans do not know what Guam is, nevermind wanting to go there. Military offers their own shuttle on transport plan
38 HNL-Jack : I have flown the HNL-Gum segment many times and even as a U.S. citizen, you would do well to take your passport with you. You'll be required to clear
39 azncsa4qf744er : Since when do you need to clear immigration when transiting in Japan? I've transmitted HND/KIX/NRT many times and never have I clear immigration. I re
40 tortugamon : Ok, I do not want to beleaguer this point too much but I will offer up another airport with higher per capita traffic: HNL Honolulu is in the city an
41 Post contains links and images RWA380 : And AQ did with wet leased DC-10's flying as Aloha Pacific..... View Large View MediumPhoto © AirNikon Collection-Pima Air and Space Museum
42 Post contains images rwy04lga : Well, if it's now a COUNTRY, you damn sure need a passport!
43 kgaiflyer : No need to beat ourselves up over it. I do the same thing at YOW transiting from an IAD flight to an LHR flight. But . . . that means we are not the
44 b737100 : just a note of interest, the Aloha 737 in the pic ship 711 is the aircraft involved in the "blow-roof " incident.
45 Braniff747SP : Apparently not... Indeed we where.
46 longhauler : That is more a function of the facilities available at YOW, that the rules of the nation. If you were to fly IAD-YYZ-LHR or IAD-YUL-LHR not only woul
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