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Allegiant Air Pulling Out Of Gary  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3090 posts, RR: 10
Posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8720 times:

The brief writeup doesn't state why. This story just hit two hours ago on this Friday evening. The end of flights will hit in August. I have E-Mailed a gentleman who works at GYY. We'll see what he says about why this is happening. Passenger loads is the usual reason that Allegiant pulls out but we will wait for official word.

Courtesy: Gary Post-Tribune

Allegiant Air Pulling Out Of Gary

" The airport’s large-scale runway expansion project and a potential public-private partnership have accelerated discussions with other airlines, she said."

http://posttrib.suntimes.com/2032697...giant-air-pulling-out-of-gary.html

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8632 times:

What a shame. I bet it's either fare pressure from airlines at ORD/MDW or poor package sales, as the flights seemed to be full. (It's not uncommon for G4 to drop a flight due to poor package sales - FWA-AZA was eliminated for that exact reason.)

I also thought that GYY could have eventually grown into a destination city for Chicago for G4, much like their use of LAX and OAK. Could RFD fill that void now, or is RFD too far from downtown Chicago to work? Then again, G4 successfully uses SFB, which is on the far other side of Disney, so anything's possible with them.

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
" The airport’s large-scale runway expansion project and a potential public-private partnership have accelerated discussions with other airlines, she said."

I know that NK has been interested in GYY in the past. NK is gate-constrained at ORD, one of their highest-cost airports, so I could see some NK service at GYY in the form of new flights or some flights moved from ORD.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently online727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6300 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8488 times:

I did this thread 5 years ago....and I still say it could work.

Would A Chicago/Gary(GYY) Based Airline Work? (by 727LOVER Jan 8 2008 in Civil Aviation)



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 813 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8335 times:
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G4 is still going great at SBN. SBN's March numbers are out and Allegiant is SBN's Number 2 carrier with 35.20 % market share just barely getting beat out by Delta at 37.89%.

User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 399 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8326 times:

GYY has a long way to go and can not be compared to RFD. RFD is holding its own, and IMHO it is "Chicago's third airport" (albeit unofficially). G4 has been very successful here and I'm hopeful for future expansion. Gary, IN just can't compete in the same game as RFD.


Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlineORDTLV2414 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8183 times:
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Must Chicagoians dont even know about the Airport in Rockford. It is not Chicago's 3rd airport. MKE is the real 3rd airport.

User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3090 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7778 times:

More information on the subject via Northwest Indiana Times:

Courtesy: Northwest Indiana Times

Allegiant Stops Service At Gary Airport

http://www.nwitimes.com/business/loc...f-961b-5b0c-8b62-1d87d34faf2f.html


User currently offlineDL747400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7405 times:

I guess someone should go ahead and mention that G4 has officially purchased the used DL dartboard.

User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 399 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7117 times:

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 5):
Must Chicagoians dont even know about the Airport in Rockford.

I beg to differ. This airport has had a banner year and excellent loads for no one knowing about it. Fares are very competitive at RFD and the customer service is second to none. MKE may be larger but not better! BTW,
RFD has been named the 2013 Primary Airport of the Year by the Illinois Division of Aeronautics and 200+ more FREE PARKING spots are coming soon (FREE...something MKE doesn't have in its vocabulary).



Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7052 times:

Quoting United727 (Reply 8):
RFD has been named the 2013 Primary Airport of the Year by the Illinois Division of Aeronautics and 200+ more FREE PARKING spots are coming soon (FREE...something MKE doesn't have in its vocabulary).

GYY once had free parking as well, but changed to pay parking shortly before Skybus entered GYY.

Maybe if NK comes into GYY like they've been thinking about, GYY could bring free parking back. After all, NK has many fees (even moreso than G4), but they can't control airport parking rates.  



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7006 times:

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 7):
I guess someone should go ahead and mention that G4 has officially purchased the used DL dartboard.

G4 has been pulling out of unprofitable cities for over a decade, long before the Delta Dartboard.

It's part of G4's business plan - if the flights are unprofitable due to low loads, vacation package sales, and/or yields, they pull out - sometimes even before the route starts. Simple as that.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlineboeingkid From United States of America, joined May 2009, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6891 times:

No airline has ever survived at GYY. This is a proven fact and it keeps being proven

User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6720 times:

Quoting boeingkid (Reply 11):
No airline has ever survived at GYY. This is a proven fact and it keeps being proven

Up until now, carriers left GYY because of the carrier's problems, not because of their GYY flights - which were consistently among (if not) their strongest performers. Pan Am III, Southeast, Hooters, SkyValue, and Skybus were all like this.

Allegiant is the first example of a strong, profitable carrier leaving GYY. And I'm willing to bet that G4's reason for leaving GYY will be poor package sales or yields depressed by ORD and MDW - the loads on GYY-SFB were fine.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 870 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6681 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 1):
I also thought that GYY could have eventually grown into a destination city for Chicago for G4, much like their use of LAX and OAK. Could RFD fill that void now, or is RFD too far from downtown Chicago to work? Then again, G4 successfully uses SFB, which is on the far other side of Disney, so anything's possible with them.

The bulk of the people who use RFD either live in the far northwest suburbs or they live in southwest Wisconsin other than that RFD does not get much traffic form other parts of the Chicagoland area. And Rockford to downtown on a good day will cost you at least an hour and fifteen minutes but as Chicago rarely has good traffic days you are looking at at least two hours maybe more if you are trying to get from downtown Chicago to RFD.

And while Gary is much closer to downtown Chicago than Rockford it hasn't fared better, if I'm not mistaken RFD sees more passenger traffic than GYY. Even people who live in the city of Gary will drive to MDW or ORD to catch a flight. Gary has tried for years to entice airlines to start service at their airport, they even tout themselves as Chicago's third airport but so far most airlines have passed on GYY and the airlines who have started service pulls their service because of extremely low passengers loads.


User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6515 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 13):
Rockford to downtown on a good day will cost you at least an hour and fifteen minutes but as Chicago rarely has good traffic days you are looking at at least two hours maybe more if you are trying to get from downtown Chicago to RFD.

SFB to Disney World is about an hour, while MCO to Disney is about half that. Still, G4 flies to SFB and not MCO, and when they tried MCO for a while, they headed straight back to SFB because passengers preferred SFB's shorter lines and walks to the shorter drive from MCO to Disney or Universal. (The fact that SFB's costs are even cheaper than MCO's already-low costs helped G4's decision, too.)

That said, even if the drive to downtown Chicago is often two hours, I wouldn't be surprised if G4 starts an LAX/OAK-esque base at RFD. If they can make SFB work extremely successfully in spite of the extra drive compared to MCO, they can do the same at RFD.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2113 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6476 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 12):
Allegiant is the first example of a strong, profitable carrier leaving GYY. And I'm willing to bet that G4's reason for leaving GYY will be poor package sales or yields depressed by ORD and MDW - the loads on GYY-SFB were fine.

That sounds like a GYY problem, not a carrier problem, to me. If a strong, profitable carrier like G4 that focuses on niches like GYY can't make it work, who can?

At some point, with all these strings of failures, you have to step back and consider whether it is a "carrier" problem or whether it is a market problem. After all the strength of a carrier is built upon the strength of their markets, and even the established legacies don't fly to GYY.

[Edited 2013-05-25 11:09:30]

User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5789 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6435 times:

This article says the reason given in the airport's press release is:
""Allegiant's service from Gary to Orlando isn't consistent with their revenue model.""
http://posttrib.suntimes.com/news/la...r-pulling-out-of-gary-airport.html

That's usually Allegiant-speak for poor ancillary revenue. Probably the package sales at GYY were a low percentage of overall ticket sales. The ticket sales numbers might be considered good for another ULCC/LCC but Allegiant relies heavily on the package sales revenues.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5896 times:

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 16):
That's usually Allegiant-speak for poor ancillary revenue.

Guess I was right on it being low ancillary revenue, particularly package sales, and not low loads.

And now that I think about it, it doesn't surprise me. I used to live in northwest Indiana, and many of the people who went to Orlando (and not Destin, the preferred Spring Break choice at my high school) rented condos or vacation homes near the attractions. G4's package offerings have a limited condo selection and zero vacation homes. Not to mention that many of these families had timeshare interests in Orlando, so they didn't need a hotel from G4 - the maximum they needed was a rental car, and they probably picked their own car rental agency separate from the flight. Hence, poor ancillary revenue.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 16):
The ticket sales numbers might be considered good for another ULCC/LCC but Allegiant relies heavily on the package sales revenues.

  

Here in FWA, I've seen two of those stories, happening in short succession. In addition to dropping FWA-AZA due to too many locals and not enough packages, G4 kept SBN-LAS around instead of FWA-LAS because the three-way fare war at IND at the time also meant that SBN-LAS produced higher yields and ancillary revenue than FWA-LAS. (I would be interested to see if G4 retries FWA-LAS with Airbuses now that IND-LAS is an all-WN route with fares to match.)

FWA-FLL was pulled for a different reason: congestion at FLL affecting all the airlines that served the airport. Loads, yields, and ancillary revenue were fine, but the delays at FLL killed the route.

However, G4 at FWA has been mostly positive stories. FWA-SFB/PIE is still going strong after over six years, FWA-PGD got off to a great start and performs very well, and G4 just resumed FWA-MYR for its fourth season.

[Edited 2013-05-25 13:27:10]

[Edited 2013-05-25 13:42:21]


I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 870 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5670 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 14):
SFB to Disney World is about an hour, while MCO to Disney is about half that. Still, G4 flies to SFB and not MCO, and when they tried MCO for a while, they headed straight back to SFB because passengers preferred SFB's shorter lines and walks to the shorter drive from MCO to Disney or Universal. (The fact that SFB's costs are even cheaper than MCO's already-low costs helped G4's decision, too.)

That said, even if the drive to downtown Chicago is often two hours, I wouldn't be surprised if G4 starts an LAX/OAK-esque base at RFD. If they can make SFB work extremely successfully in spite of the extra drive compared to MCO, they can do the same at RFD.

I'm not really sure why you are comparing Chicago traffic to traffic in Orlando all I was doing was answering another persons question as to if people in downtown Chicago drive all the way to RFD to catch a flight. And on a side note the reason why RFD has been so successful is because people in the community surrounding RFD support that airport and airlines that use RFD so if G4 was to start service out of RFD to LAX as you suggest I'm sure they would be successful. However GYY receives very little support from the communities surrounding the airport and most people who live near GYY drive and fly out of MDW instead of GYY. So while your post tries to make this about G4 my comments or this discussion isn't really about G4 it is about GYY and how every airline that starts service to that airport eventually pulls out because traffic at that airport is almost nonexistent. G4 is a great airline however GYY isn't a great airport in terms of passenger traffic and RFD might be a better match for G4 because it would produce more passenger traffic for G4.


User currently offlineBravoGolf From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 538 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5614 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 18):
So while your post tries to make this about G4 my comments or this discussion isn't really about G4 it is about GYY and how every airline that starts service to that airport eventually pulls out because traffic at that airport is almost nonexistent. G4 is a great airline however GYY isn't a great airport in terms of passenger traffic and RFD might be a better match for G4 because it would produce more passenger traffic for G4.

So why don't you tell us what this poor support and no pax results in terms of load factors? Please please enlighten us.


User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5603 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 18):
GYY and how every airline that starts service to that airport eventually pulls out because traffic at that airport is almost nonexistent.

As I have said many times on here, passenger loads have never been a problem for airlines serving GYY, even in G4's case.

What has typically been the case is that the airlines that served GYY aside from G4 had shaky financials that led to them closing shop, even though GYY was always a top-performing station. With G4, they couldn't make enough money on vacation packages from GYY. As we in FWA know, if a G4 flight can't make money from package sales, it's toast.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlinesancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 568 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5318 times:

I used to live not far from GYY and the problem has been locations. Carriers who have used GYY in the past have mainly been to vacation/sunny destinations. If an airline were to offer ATL-GYY or DFW-GYY, I bet they would work.


kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5276 times:

Quoting sancho99504 (Reply 21):
If an airline were to offer ATL-GYY or DFW-GYY, I bet they would work.

The problem with these types of services is hub cannibalization. The two airlines hubbed at ORD (UA, AA) have never succeeded outside of ORD because no one wants to connect when they could go nonstop on the same airline from ORD.

-UA tried RFD-DEN for a while and it failed because people who wanted to fly UA went to ORD for the nonstops.
-UA also tried MDW-DEN/IAD, which failed for the same reason as RFD-DEN, and even faster.
-AA tried MDW-DFW. It didn't last.
-AA also tried MDW-LGA. It lasted even shorter than MDW-DFW.

That said, I could see DL trying ATL-GYY, MSP-GYY, or DTW-GYY because DL does not have a hub in Chicago, and therefore has a lot less to lose.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 870 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5232 times:

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 19):
So why don't you tell us what this poor support and no pax results in terms of load factors? Please please enlighten us.

G4 is the only commercial airline that operates out of GYY they fly out of GYY 2 times a week and here is the link to enlighten you.

http://www.nwitimes.com/business/tra...2-130f-5ef2-ba2a-d94f5010cae0.html

The article states that GYY on last year boarded more than 10,000 passengers but in addition to G4 Gary also sees some charter traffic. So for the sake of argument lets say G4 flights attributed the 10,000 passengers that GYY saw last year and the other traffic was as a result of Charter airline traffic. and since G4 started service in February of 2012 if you take 10,000 divide it by 48 weeks ( it would be 52 weeks but we are not including january) you will see that G4 had about 208 passengers traveling thru GYY every week and if you then divide 208 by the number of flights which is 2 weekly you will see that the basic load factor was about 108 passengers per flight. It is a decent load factor but it obviously was not enough to keep G4 at GYY. This isn't an attack on G4 all I'm saying is Gary for years has struggled to attract commercial airlines and when a commercial airlines finally take a gamble on GYY then end up pulling out and it is due to low passenger traffic and demand the communities around Gary do not support the local airport like the communities around RFD. If the traffic was there Gary would not be begging airlines to start service to their airport.


User currently offlinesancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 568 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5199 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 22):

I meant to say that about UA and AA.



kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
User currently offlineBravoGolf From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 538 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5231 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 23):
ince G4 started service in February of 2012 if you take 10,000 divide it by 48 weeks ( it would be 52 weeks but we are not including january) you will see that G4 had about 208 passengers traveling thru GYY every week and if you then divide 208 by the number of flights which is 2 weekly you will see that the basic load factor was about 108 passengers per flight. It is a decent load factor but it

Whoever told you that Allegiant didn't take time off after the spring break and again in the fall. They did not fly through the year. And your are also getting your information from the bastion of aviation accuracy, the press! Go to their site and see how many seats are available this summer. If you actually check the numbers you might deduce that their load factors are in the mid 90's.


User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5156 times:

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 25):
Whoever told you that Allegiant didn't take time off after the spring break and again in the fall. They did not fly through the year.

That may have been true at GYY and several other stations like TOL, but most G4 stations have at least one year-round route (FWA has three: SFB, PIE, and PGD). So some people might think that the service from GYY was year-round as well.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5789 posts, RR: 15
Reply 27, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5196 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 23):
So for the sake of argument lets say G4 flights attributed the 10,000 passengers that GYY saw last year and the other traffic was as a result of Charter airline traffic. and since G4 started service in February of 2012 if you take 10,000 divide it by 48 weeks ( it would be 52 weeks but we are not including january) you will see that G4 had about 208 passengers traveling thru GYY every week and if you then divide 208 by the number of flights which is 2 weekly you will see that the basic load factor was about 108 passengers per flight.

Close back of the envelope but a little low. My numbers aren't exact either but include more information.

This article says Allegiant had 10,500 passengers from Feb 15 to Dec 31.
http://posttrib.suntimes.com/news/lake/18257880-418/

So that is about 45.5 or 46 calendar weeks.

But G4 also did a 6 week seasonal suspension at GYY from Sept. 6 to restart Oct. 18. So now we are at 40 weeks. I do not remember if there were any other seasonal suspensions in 2012 or not.

10,500 divided by 40 weeks is about 262 pax per week. Or about 131 passengers average per flight.

I don't know specific aircraft that flew there so the number of seats could be 150 or 166 per flight. So either 83% average loads or 79%.

Both pax per flight and LFs could be higher if there were any other suspensions in 2012 I missed. Did they do a post-spring break suspension in 2012?

Decent (albeit not great) numbers, but we don't know the peaks and valleys of booking to see if it could have been improved this year with more use of seasonal suspensions. They did suspend for a few weeks this year after spring break which would also increase pax per flight.

However, the cancellation still leads me to believe the vacation package and fee income even in peak periods was not strong. For example if summer saw good ancillary income then they would have give more thought to switching to a shorter seasonal service or more seasonal suspensions.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6696 posts, RR: 32
Reply 28, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4529 times:

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 27):
I don't know specific aircraft that flew there so the number of seats could be 150 or 166 per flight. So either 83% average loads or 79%.

The BTS numbers show an average load for GYY-SFB and reverse of 84.4% for 2012. It also looks like they did a few gambling charters to UTM & IFP with much lower loads. That's a few points below the system average and traffic was relatively weak in the late fall.


User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3090 posts, RR: 10
Reply 29, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4433 times:

As I have heard from a GYY insider "overall load factor at GYY for G4 95.3."

If fliers used the flights but not in connection with other available "associated packages" connected to the Allegiant flight could this be the heart of the issue here. In other words if a passenger just flew to Orlando would this be a financial loss for Allegiant for that specific passenger.

As for the airport at Gary I firmly believe that once they complete what has been a monumental task of getting the railroad tracks rerouted and then proceed with lengthening the runway as originally planned I think they will have gotton over their biggest hurdle in terms of revamping their airport. Its one thing to lengthen a runway its another getting all parties together to move physical obstactles and getting everybody involved to agree on a solution, and also acquire the funds to do it.

GYY has just about done all that. You got to give them credit for starting and continuing to move forward. With what will be a significantly improved airport they can then focus more on getting serious air service. With the determination that have demonstrated on the improvements I am confident that they will acquire some reputable air service in the near future.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12784 posts, RR: 100
Reply 30, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4387 times:
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A shame for GYY. I do not blame G4. In fact, kudos to them for the attempt.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 16):
""Allegiant's service from Gary to Orlando isn't consistent with their revenue model.""

And that says it all. Either flights are profitable or should be cancelled.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 29):
GYY has just about done all that. You got to give them credit for starting and continuing to move forward

The city needs to figure out how to attract back business. But how? For with business will be air travel...


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4228 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 22):
That said, I could see DL trying ATL-GYY, MSP-GYY, or DTW-GYY because DL does not have a hub in Chicago, and therefore has a lot less to lose.

If any legacy carrier were to start GYY, I think you are correct. In terms of LCCs, WN will never go there, neither will B6, NK is a maybe. FL is now WN (so to speak) so they're out. I'm sure DL has a frequent flier base in Chicago, but not like AA and UA. The question is, what type of travelers would DL service to GYY cater to? Most likely not to those who live in Chicago, but more than likely those originating in another place, probably cities where DL has a larger loyal frequent flier base. It will also more than likely cater to leisure pax over business, because let's face it, ORD and MDW have that covered, especially from large east coast markets (NYC, BOS, DC/Baltimore, PHL) who will hop on one of the many ORD flights or fair share of MDW flights, and all of these markets have UA, AA, and WN there with so many Chicago flights your head will spin (plus the DL Shuttle flights from LGA-ORD).

I could see GYY-ATL being first, if this theory were to become reality. IF. It probably couldn't sustain more than 1-2 CRJs though, and with 50 seaters so expensive to fly it probably wouldn't make sense to even start it, but IF it did that's probably how it would be. That would be enough to connect GYY to DL's many dominated markets in the southeast to NW Indiana and Chicago's southern suburbs.



In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22680 posts, RR: 20
Reply 32, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4162 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 30):
And that says it all. Either flights are profitable or should be cancelled.

Sort of, as the whole point of discussing the G4 "business model" is that profit comes from vacation packages more than just flights. I suspect that if you look at the flights a la carte, quite a few G4 flights are not profitable.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12784 posts, RR: 100
Reply 33, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3853 times:
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Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
I suspect that if you look at the flights a la carte, quite a few G4 flights are not profitable.

Concur. But as you note their business model is profit off vacation packages. It will be the combined ROI that determines the viability of their flights.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3804 times:

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 31):
NK is a maybe

More like a "likely"; NK has expressed strong interest in GYY in the past and is gate-constrained at ORD. With G4 gone, NK can start GYY without fear.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3747 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 34):
More like a "likely"

Whoops, typo.



In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24964 posts, RR: 85
Reply 36, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3755 times:
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Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 34):
More like a "likely"; NK has expressed strong interest in GYY in the past and is gate-constrained at ORD. With G4 gone, NK can start GYY without fear.

I think that is quite interesting if Spirit has suggested GYY.

It is the exact opposite of their model to date, which seems (to me) to be plum routes from primary airports. Even ACY is a more obvious market than, say, nearby TTN. And I'm not sure that Allegiant at GYY would be any barrier to Spirit starting service there.

I guess Plattsburgh would be the nearest example of Spirit at a non-primary airport, but I assume that's to pull Canadian pax.

Changing times?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3791 posts, RR: 7
Reply 37, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3632 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 17):
FWA-FLL was pulled for a different reason: congestion at FLL affecting all the airlines that served the airport. Loads, yields, and ancillary revenue were fine, but the delays at FLL killed the route.

I'm giving you a funny look right now. You can't see it, but rest assured I am. It's one of those "Oh really?" looks.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 23):
The article states that GYY on last year boarded more than 10,000 passengers but in addition to G4 Gary also sees some charter traffic. So for the sake of argument lets say G4 flights attributed the 10,000 passengers that GYY saw last year and the other traffic was as a result of Charter airline traffic. and since G4 started service in February of 2012 if you take 10,000 divide it by 48 weeks ( it would be 52 weeks but we are not including january) you will see that G4 had about 208 passengers traveling thru GYY every week and if you then divide 208 by the number of flights which is 2 weekly you will see that the basic load factor was about 108 passengers per flight. It is a decent load factor but it obviously was not enough to keep G4 at GYY. This isn't an attack on G4 all I'm saying is Gary for years has struggled to attract commercial airlines and when a commercial airlines finally take a gamble on GYY then end up pulling out and it is due to low passenger traffic and demand the communities around Gary do not support the local airport like the communities around RFD. If the traffic was there Gary would not be begging airlines to start service to their airport.


I know some better data has since been brought to light, but for what its worth, 108 per flight is a garbage LF for G4.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 34):
More like a "likely"; NK has expressed strong interest in GYY in the past and is gate-constrained at ORD. With G4 gone, NK can start GYY without fear.

Fear of what? Was NK going to fly to SFB?


User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 38, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3484 times:

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 37):
Fear of what? Was NK going to fly to SFB?

No, but NK can and does fly to MCO, which is in the same market as SFB.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 37):

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 17):
FWA-FLL was pulled for a different reason: congestion at FLL affecting all the airlines that served the airport. Loads, yields, and ancillary revenue were fine, but the delays at FLL killed the route.

I'm giving you a funny look right now. You can't see it, but rest assured I am. It's one of those "Oh really?" looks.

It wasn't just FWA-FLL; G4 pulled several FLL routes around the same time for the same reason - G4 corporate in LAS cited FLL congestion, and my FWA contacts at the time said the same thing. Only the FLL flights with the absolute highest ancillary revenue survived; while FWA-FLL was a very good performer, even by G4 standards, the ancillary revenue wasn't quite high enough to spare the axe along with several other FLL routes. (G4 flew SBN-FLL as well until the FLL route cuts, but I'm not sure how good that route did; regardless, it was axed at the same time for the same reason, even though SBN is a very strong G4 station. Not only does G4 have more routes at SBN to this day, SBN had G4 several years before FWA.)

With congestion under control at FLL and a runway expansion under way, G4 has been building FLL back up, and I wouldn't be surprised to see FWA-FLL return at some point in the future.

[Edited 2013-05-27 18:43:20]


I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlineYNGguins From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 511 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3389 times:

They could say congestion all they want, but the fact they couldn't deliver a schedule that would tie into the cruise schedules killed that hub. Furthermore, on the rare occasion it would be tied into the cruise schedule, the delays Allegiant has a reputation for have killed the routes.

Spirit will crush Allegiant head-to-head into FLL that is for sure.



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User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3354 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
I guess Plattsburgh would be the nearest example of Spirit at a non-primary airport, but I assume that's to pull Canadian pax.

Latrobe instead of PIT?


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24964 posts, RR: 85
Reply 42, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3350 times:
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Quoting LV (Reply 41):
Latrobe instead of PIT?

Wel, sure, but Sprit doesn't fly to PIT, it uses LBE as the alternate.

It does fly to ORD, so I'd be intrigued if it went to the alternate GYY as well.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3791 posts, RR: 7
Reply 43, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

Quoting YNGguins (Reply 40):
Spirit will crush Allegiant head-to-head into FLL that is for sure.

In the same market, it could really come down to the schedules.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 38):
No, but NK can and does fly to MCO, which is in the same market as SFB.

Is it? I don't know. I think that's really debatable. You could probably make the argument that SFB is the same market as MCO if you don't have MCO.... If you have service to both airports I think you'd see some market differentiation. MCO is no doubt closer to Kissimmee (where all that stuff that draws people to Orlando is), and SFB is no doubt closer to the northern suburbs and is a good start on the jaunt to Daytona Beach.

Look at PHF. They had a daily flight to MCO on FL... I believe.. and G4 has since stepped in but with only 2 weekly flights that they won't even run year-round. Sure that could be the result of different business models, but it's still a very large difference in service levels.


User currently offlineTPAfan From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3242 times:

I was thinking of F9, but forgot about their operation at rockford. A mere speculation and wild guess, but flights to their destinations from Rockford, and then maybe MCO, TPA, RSW, FLL, TTN? Just a thrown-out there speculation, but would they ever consider changing operatiosns from RFD to GYY?

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24964 posts, RR: 85
Reply 45, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3239 times:
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Quoting TPAfan (Reply 44):
I was thinking of F9, but forgot about their operation at rockford. A mere speculation and wild guess, but flights to their destinations from Rockford, and then maybe MCO, TPA, RSW, FLL, TTN? Just a thrown-out there speculation, but would they ever consider changing operatiosns from RFD to GYY?

The key to RFD, for Frontier, is Apple Vacations. The DEN-RFD flights does well, at least seasonally, but they started it because otherwise it would be a non-rev repo.

If Apple shifted to GYY it might change things, but I doubt that would happen.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 813 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2132 times:
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G4 never flew SBN-FLL.

User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3090 posts, RR: 10
Reply 47, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2093 times:

An update has hit the paper with comments from Allegiant:

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
we will wait for official word.

Courtesy: Gary Post-Tribune

Gary Airport Board Moving On After Allegiant Loss

"GARY — Passenger service to the Orlando, Fla., area from the Gary/Chicago International Airport didn’t generate enough demand or revenue, an Allegiant Air spokeswoman said Tuesday.

Jessica Wheeler also said the airport’s runway expansion efforts wouldn’t factor into its future service decisions."

"We didn’t see a lot of demand for service, but we don’t know what the likelihood is we’ll go back with the same services,” she said saying it’s up to the market."


http://posttrib.suntimes.com/2039238...oving-on-after-allegiant-loss.html


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39660 posts, RR: 75
Reply 48, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2044 times:

Sad to read of my hometown airport losing it's only passenger airline service.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 1):
Could RFD fill that void now, or is RFD too far from downtown Chicago to work?

Rockford isn't even in the greater Chicagoland metro area. Gary IS part of Chicago metropolitan area.

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 5):
Must Chicagoians dont even know about the Airport in Rockford. It is not Chicago's 3rd airport. MKE is the real 3rd airport.

For those in the far north suburbs near Great America, MKE is a viable option and cheaper to drive to. No need to deal with the tolls driving to ORD.



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