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RUMOR: DL To Order 30 A321 + 10 A330  
User currently offlineTriple7Lr From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 95 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 34273 times:

Let me start by saying I normally don't post rumors or feed into them but this one is gaining traction. I came across a post on a pilot blog a week ago about a possible order but I blew it off, pilots are always starting rumors. However the city of ATL just happened to paint A321 on all of parking lines on E concourse yesterday. It reminds me of the 717 acquisition. It was rumored, then the lines appeared then, the agreement with WN was announced. It fits into there fleet strategy its a proven aircraft and they have tons of economic data on it. Plus I'm sure they'll be able to get them at a favorable price. What do you guys think?

183 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 34282 times:

Quoting Triple7Lr (Thread starter):
Let me start by saying I normally don't post rumors or feed into them but this one is gaining traction. I came across a post on a pilot blog a week ago about a possible order but I blew it off, pilots are always starting rumors. However the city of ATL just happened to paint A321 on all of parking lines on E concourse yesterday. It reminds me of the 717 acquisition. It was rumored, then the lines appeared then, the agreement with WN was announced. It fits into there fleet strategy its a proven aircraft and they have tons of economic data on it. Plus I'm sure they'll be able to get them at a favorable price. What do you guys think?

The A321 rumor has been going on for years. DL has already ordered the 739ER, and just because more fleet types were added with the NW merger doesn't mean DL must further complicate its fleet by adding more and more types. Furthermore, DL does NOT own the gates at Concourse E; they are common use gates, and probably the lines were added to accommodate any airline with A321s who intends on using the E gates.

[Edited 2013-05-25 16:20:53]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4200 posts, RR: 37
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 34210 times:

The Director of Flight ops just completed his A320 type. I'm hearing that the are close to a deal with this exact number of orders.


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 34149 times:

Quoting Triple7Lr (Thread starter):

All you mentioned was the A321s. Nothing about the A330s.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 1):

     
My point exactly.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4200 posts, RR: 37
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 34013 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 3):
All you mentioned was the A321s. Nothing about the A330s.

An RFP is out for a widebody order. Something will be announced soon.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 34016 times:

Ahh yes, the paint lines at the gate rumor. Whoever is in charge of painting the lines on the ramp must be closely tied to the CEOs of every airline. I can't count the number airline rumors that have started from something this.

Recently the CEO was quoted as saying Delta will 'wait until the new gen aircraft prove themselves' and I was assuming this was in reference to the A320NEO and A350. Maybe these orders are just to hold them over until then.



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User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 34035 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 4):
An RFP is out for a widebody order. Something will be announced soon.

I am putting my money on the 77W. Even though DL has updated the interiors of the 744, the oldest aircraft were built in the 80s and need replacing soon.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 5):
Ahh yes, the paint lines at the gate rumor. Whoever is in charge of painting the lines on the ramp must be closely tied to the CEOs of every airline. I can't count the number airline rumors that have started from something this.

The main flaw here is that the E gates are not DL-owned gates, they are common use gates that any airline can use, and probably the lines for the A321 were put in place to accommodate any airline with A321s who need to use them (remember that all international arrivals are required to use either Concourse E or F).

[Edited 2013-05-25 16:33:54]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 33948 times:

Quoting Triple7Lr (Thread starter):
Let me start by saying I normally don't post rumors or feed into them but this one is gaining traction.

Bloomberg was on the widebody part of this a couple of months ago:

Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order (by AeroWesty Mar 20 2013 in Civil Aviation)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4200 posts, RR: 37
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 33871 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
I am putting my money on the 77W. Even though DL has updated the interiors of the 744, the oldest aircraft were built in the 80s and need replacing soon.

The last order went to Boeing. This one will likely be Airbus.

The 744s are going to stick around for a good while.

As far as the 321s, there's likely a very good reason why the DO just got checked out..

[Edited 2013-05-25 16:38:21]


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 33833 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 8):
The last order went to Boeing. This one will likely be Airbus.

Doubt it. As they did last time with the 739ER, Boeing will provide DL a really sweet deal that Airbus will be unable to match. Boeing cannot afford to lose DL, considering that they have already lost several loyal customers to Airbus, and DL is pretty much the last one standing not counting any LCCs (and no, UA doesn't count since they still have A350s on order).

Fact is, A321s don't make any sense since DL has already ordered the 739ER, thus adding a redundant type, and the oldest 744 is older than the oldest 763ER (not to mention the fact that the 763ER has a higher cycle limit than the 744), so the 77W is more likely than the A330.

[Edited 2013-05-25 16:46:19]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19717 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 33696 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 8):
The last order went to Boeing. This one will likely be Airbus.

This one will go to the OEM who gives them the best offer. It will depend on little other than that.

You must understand that Mr. Anderson does not run the company like a dictator. He answers to a Board of Directors. He gets information from various employees whose job it is to run the numbers and figure out whether the 739ER or A321 will fit their fleet better and for less money. If he grants a contract for any reason other than that without being instructed to do so by the BOD, he will get fired by the BOD.

However, if DL requires A330-sized aircraft, then the A330 is the obvious choice. The 787 is much more expensive and the wait for it is much longer. They already have A330s in the fleet and so they can order them in small numbers ("top-ups") without racking up huge expenses.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 33704 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):

You must understand that Mr. Anderson does not run the company like a dictator. He answers to a Board of Directors. He gets information from various employees whose job it is to run the numbers and figure out whether the 739ER or A321 will fit their fleet better and for less money. If he grants a contract for any reason other than that without being instructed to do so by the BOD, he will get fired by the BOD.

Which is why the A321 doesn't make any financial sense, since it would be redundant with the 739ER and would add unnecessary fleet complexity. Inheriting A32x aircraft from NW was one thing, however, it doesn't mean it makes any sense that DL should further complicate its fleet. In the long run, fleet simplification WILL occur.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
However, if DL requires A330-sized aircraft, then the A330 is the obvious choice. The 787 is much more expensive and the wait for it is much longer. They already have A330s in the fleet and so they can order them in small numbers ("top-ups") without racking up huge expenses.

However, the 744 replacement is likely higher priority than the 763ER replacement, since the oldest 744 is older than the oldest 763ER, as well as the fact that the 763ER has a higher cycle limit than the 744.

[Edited 2013-05-25 16:55:50]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31001 posts, RR: 86
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 33569 times:
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Delta has a massive 757-200 fleet and I expect there are missions where the A321-200 makes a better replacement than the 737-900ER so a small order of 30 doesn't seem ridiculous.

And based on Mr. Anderson's comments, he's more interested in the 787-9 and 787-10 than the 787-8s he currently has on order. And I expect the pricing to DL for those 787-8s have gone up a fair bit due to the length of the deferment (which would trigger the price escalation clauses) and we don't know what pricing, if any, NW secured for possible 787-9 orders. As such, the price DL would have to pay for a 787-9 or 787-10 could be closer to current market rates, which should be a fair bit higher than what they can secure new A330s from Airbus for.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 33499 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
And based on Mr. Anderson's comments, he's more interested in the 787-9 and 787-10 than the 787-8s he currently has on order. And I expect the pricing to DL for those 787-8s have gone up a fair bit due to the length of the deferment (which would trigger the price escalation clauses) and we don't know what pricing, if any, NW secured for possible 787-9 orders. As such, the price DL would have to pay for a 787-9 or 787-10 could be closer to current market rates, which should be a fair bit higher than what they can secure new A330s from Airbus for.

Of course, Boeing could actually give DL a really good deal on 764ERs for an even lower price than any A330. I'm not saying Boeing will actually do this, however, the 764ER works flawlessly for DL across the Atlantic on routes that do not require the additional range or cargo capacity of the A332, and has a lower CASM than both the 763ER and A332, and could be useful for upgauging some of the more profitable 763ER routes. Considering that DL is a fan of limited run aircraft types (MD-90 and 717 immediately come to mind), the 764ER should not be ruled out.

[Edited 2013-05-25 17:08:53]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDL_Mech From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1952 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 33474 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 11):
However, the 744 replacement is likely higher priority than the 763ER replacement, since the oldest 744 is older than the oldest 763ER, as well as the fact that the 763ER has a higher cycle limit than the 744.

The 744s have lower hours/cycles than the early 763ERs.

Search here (leave the "N" off of the registration number):

http://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/Query.aspx



This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 573 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 33432 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Fact is, A321s don't make any sense since DL has already ordered the 739ER, thus adding a redundant type, and the oldest 744 is older than the oldest 763ER (not to mention the fact that the 763ER has a higher cycle limit than the 744), so the 77W is more likely than the A330.

Prepare to be disappointed.


User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2005 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 33357 times:

Anyone got a bunch of second hand A321's up for sale right now ?  

User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5276 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 33237 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
Boeing could actually give DL a really good deal on 764ERs for an even lower price than any A330.

  DL will not order any new 764's. If they wanted additional frames, they would have ordered them by now.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
the 764ER works flawlessly for DL across the Atlantic on routes that do not require the additional range or cargo capacity of the A332

Flawlessly? Care to back that one up?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
and has a lower CASM than both the 763ER and A332

And in spite of the lower CASM, the market spoke and overwhelmingly chose the A332. DL will not order any more 764s at this point. End of story.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9425 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 33245 times:

Ah I love pilot rumor threads.
That Dallas pilot base should be coming any day now and all those used 747s.......

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 2):

Couldn't be because they have 150 airbus in the fleet already?

No clearly for the 30 new 321s lol.


They just fitted the test cell(s) in atlanta for Trent 800 and GE90 runs. That probably means just as much as someone getting qualified on an aircraft type. Nearly nothing.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):

......wow......

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 15):

Depends. Could also be some 777 options used.
Something should happen by June maybe July



yep.
User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 573 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 33145 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 18):
Depends. Could also be some 777 options used.
Something should happen by June maybe July

The widebody piece is not currently expected to be split.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 18):
They just fitted the test cell(s) in atlanta for Trent 800 and GE90 runs. That probably means just as much as someone getting qualified on an aircraft type. Nearly nothing.

Don't know where you heard that but it is not true.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 33067 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 17):
And in spite of the lower CASM, the market spoke and overwhelmingly chose the A332. DL will not order any more 764s at this point. End of story.

That doesn't mean DL has the same requirements as everyone else. DL considered the A332 when replacing the L-1011, but chose the 764ER due to its lower CASM. No, Boeing wasn't pointing a gun at Ron Allen's head; DL chose the 764ER for that very reason.

FYI, if UA unloads its 764ER fleet, DL will pick them up in a flash.

[Edited 2013-05-25 17:44:29]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 32798 times:

Which airline operates into E that could possibly switch to the A321 though?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
I am putting my money on the 77W. Even though DL has updated the interiors of the 744, the oldest aircraft were built in the 80s and need replacing soon.

This is where a lot of airlines are going to be focusing on for a while, especially if they have a sizable fleet of 744s.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 32661 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 21):
Which airline operates into E that could possibly switch to the A321 though?

Does AA use E?



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1620 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 32631 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 22):
Does AA use E?

Nah, T.

This rumor seems to come around every now and again. It'd be nice to see a few more Airbuses, but who knows.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9425 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 32555 times:

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 19):

Lol I was at the test cell last week while they were doing the work.

Both large cells can now run up to a 115,000lbs engine. Unsure(but unlikely) if they will add this to the large cell in MSP. (Currently 70k I believe)

And on the spilt, I know it's not suppose to be spilt right now, but my understanding its not out of the possibility.



Of course the last time this happened, I was pretty sure they would order 100 321s maybe Beoing will show up with a last minute offer.



yep.
25 alitalia744 : A few things: the 739ER order does not mean they won't order the Airbus. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on A321s in Delta's Citgo livery at some poi
26 Stitch : Sure, but delivery positions are going to be an issue unless someone else is willing to step aside as the backlog for the 767 stands at 63, which is
27 Deltal1011man : And iirc airbus is about to kick up 330 production right? Ugh I just wish the current fleet had CF6s or Trent 700s the Two big PW4000 are such a disa
28 Post contains images PM : Maybe they will... Er, the new ones, that is![Edited 2013-05-25 20:39:13]
29 XFSUgimpLB41X : RA was riding along with him for at least part of it as well. No new 764s will happen, I can guarantee you that. I'll give this widebody order a 90%
30 Deltal1011man : I am still completely unsure what this has to do with anything. I bet Anderson has been in Dallas too. The 737-900ER can replace the 57s, when they c
31 XFSUgimpLB41X : Why do you keep bringing up Dallas? Wishful thinking from some to reopen DFW? That's never had any validity to it. It's well known DL is in negotiati
32 Post contains images mayor : Since you're a pilot, I'm sure you've heard this before.........: There are lies, damned lies and pilot rumors
33 dtwlax : Which international airline can/will operate A321s into ATL? RA was at NW when NW ordered the A330s. RA knows well whether the A330s will work for DL
34 Post contains images XFSUgimpLB41X : And then the worst of them all, rumors from mechanics. And when I say from flight ops, I mean it's from mgmt level, not just cockpit chatter.[Edited
35 Post contains images PM : Nor am I but I can hope. Well, I'm hardly objective when it comes to RR but the facts do speak for themselves. Fifty-four percent (54%) of A330s buil
36 RayChuang : While the A330-200 in its current production version has to range to fly from LAX/SFO/SEA to Japan, South Korea and northeastern China, I wonder has D
37 HSVflier : HSV has 767 and 757 lines at their gates or at least did not sure if they are still there. Point is HSV gets neither of those aircraft and are likely
38 Post contains images mayor : This is true.......when I worked at SHV for DL, we were a diversion point for DFW and we had to be able to handle whatever type a/c that DFW would ha
39 Pacific : Airbus does claim a range of 13,400km and 13,900km for the A330-200 on their website, depending on which page you look at on their website. That is fu
40 XFSUgimpLB41X : It's not and wasn't intended to be personal. The most outrageous rumors I've heard over the years have all originated and propogated from mechanics.
41 carpethead : TACA? Does Air Jamaica operate A321s anymore? Kingfisher Airlines? Just kidding. Here something from the outfield. Perhaps AA/US & DL are talking
42 astuteman : Referring to the capabilities and powerplant of ageing A330's in the fleet doesn't mean a lot when new-builds will be WAY more capable (near-as-dammi
43 sankaps : The 321 is just a variant of the 320 family, of which Delta has a whole lot. So it is not like adding a new aircraft type altogether. DL indeed has t
44 awacsooner : Really? Care to back it up with FACTS? Or is it just more wishful thinking?
45 Post contains images oldeuropean : It's only a few week until Le Bourget.
46 Post contains images columba : Sounds like an order that could be announced there
47 bobnwa : RA has already stated the 77W is too expensive Couldn't wait for 764 to be tossed in by you. A332 is a better aircraft in just about all categories.
48 DUSint : ...and then, there is also the A330-300... Which wasn't mentioned in this thread. Why? Would it not be the logical choice for Delta, esp. when you co
49 PHX787 : Once the 7810 comes online, it won't be
50 columba : I think that DL might pick up some used 777Ws at some point, maybe when EK starts to retire their first ones. But right now I don´t believe that DL
51 sankaps : I think this "DL does not mind picking up used airplanes" theory is being a bit misapplied. Both DL and NW have indeed bought lots of used airplanes,
52 columba : Let me rephrase it, DL and NW have a history to find what suits they needs best by ordering new build planes and 2nd planes. Still, if the 777W is to
53 msp747 : What engines does the current 330 fleet have? I would put my money on the new order having the same engines. Why introduce a new type of engine for o
54 sankaps : The A330s have Pratt engines. My understanding is that is at least partly because NWA had some kind of historical agreement / settlement with Pratt t
55 Flighty : DL usually buys _depreciated_ aircraft (aircraft considered to be old, but that can operate fantastically with DL/NW Tech Ops help). 77W is not depre
56 msp747 : I would agree if they were ordering 50 of them. But for just 10 planes, it seems counterproductive to order RR instead of Pratt. I would also be will
57 sankaps : Again, I am not aware of any time where DL/NW have bought in-production aircraft second-hand, even if depreciated.
58 AeroWesty : Without too much effort I found 737-300s purchased second-hand by Delta in 1998 from multiple operators, such as Germania and Western Pacific, while
59 asqx : A few 757s (the 4 ex-ATA 75Vs) and the 7 ex-Gulf Air 767s spring to mind of examples in the current fleet of Delta purchasing used but still in produ
60 sankaps : Thanks, I stand corrected then. Any such instances for NW before they merged with Delta?
61 1337Delta764 : Do you have any proof, or are you just making up stories? Except operating costs and CASM, which is why DL ordered it in the first place. DL was unde
62 Burkhard : Some poster think that an A330 order means A332. I would be surprised to see A332s ordered, but expect A333 which deliver more seats and cargo space f
63 Flighty : Yeah but these models are now 15+ years into production. Not trying to say you're wrong at all. I agree Delta will wait until there is significant de
64 Post contains links and images AeroWesty : I'll bet ya there's some story behind this one: View Large View MediumPhoto © Frank C. Duarte Jr. Boeing code is for the Iranian Air Force. This fre
65 kgaiflyer : Funny you phrase it that way. I do believe the IAG folks are prepared to decommission a few. But I have no source and don't want to further feed the
66 sankaps : History seems to suggest otherwise. All of the airlines that had these supposedly highly advantageuos sole-sourcing agreements (Delta, American, Cont
67 1337Delta764 : However, DL wouldn't have signed it if it provided them no benefit; DL weighed all options when signing it. Boeing didn't force DL to sign the agreem
68 rj777 : I wonder if maybe they'll pick up a few from US like they got the 717s from FL?
69 jayunited : So I am going to assume that DL is looking at the A330 as a possible replacement for their 767-300 fleet. If Delta does in fact order more A330 what
70 Post contains links and images KC135TopBoom : The A-321 has a common pilot rating as the A-320s and A-319s already in the fleet. So that in itself means nothing. No, the B-764ER is also a perfect
71 bobnwa : RA made statement on Delta Extranet about two weeks aGO Looks like you are getting knots in your nickers about this. I just find it rather predictabl
72 panamair : No, the A332s, if ordered, would be upplemental. The 767 replacement is really the 787. 2020 EIS for the 787 at DL is pretty much perfect timing for
73 sankaps : Of course DL / Ron Allen and team believed it provided them with some benefit. Dont think anyone suggests Boeing forced them to sign it, there is no
74 1337Delta764 : In fact, the list price of the A332 is higher than the 788. DL wouldn't be saving any money by ordering more A332s.
75 sankaps : With respect, you seem to not have much real-world knowledge of aircraft contracts and pricing. List prices mean nothing.
76 bkflyguy : Exactly. RA just said in an interview this week that "stretched" aircraft have better economics. I suspect that they need the additional frames to ex
77 1337Delta764 : Yet, Airbus fans continue to argue the A332 has better economics than the 764ER no matter what route, which is a blatant lie due to the 764ER being a
78 sankaps : I think Richard was referring to a stretch within the same airframe, and not an apples-to-oranges comparison between two different airframe families.
79 Post contains images N821NW : Lets see: First Boeing B747-400 arrived in DL/NW fleet in 1989 so its more 90's then 80's so 2013 - 1989 = 24 years of great service (minus NW25 of c
80 1337Delta764 : And do you have any proof that the 764ER loses money on every route it flies? The 764ER is considered DL's second most efficient widebody after the A
81 tistpaa727 : I guess one logical place to start when discussing a rumor like this is what routes does DL need new widebodies on? I have no clue but I am sure some
82 Triple7Lr : My bet is on the A330-300 for the wide body order. RA just stated he loved the economics of stretched aircraft this week. The A333 in DL configuration
83 sxf24 : Delta has publicly stated they will order from both Airbus and Boeing. Unlike United, they don't see an economic benefit in being exclusive to one man
84 76er : And I guess the reason the 332 has outsold the 764 more than 10 to 1 is of course that Airbus gave them away for free.
85 1337Delta764 : Yet, UA still has A350s on order. Boeing will offer DL sweet deals to keep DL exclusive to them, since they cannot afford to lose them as an exclusiv
86 sankaps : You have made these arguments numerous times, and the fallacy of your arguments have been explained to you a number of times. But here goes once more
87 DocLightning : I doubt they will "replace" the 744. I think they will buy smaller aircraft that can fly similar missions. Actually, the A330 can replace the 744 on
88 sankaps : And in fact that is exactly what the A330 has already done once already -- replaced the 747 classic on TPAC and intra-Asia routes.
89 Post contains images Triple7Lr : They have a role or they would be replaced. The biggest problem is the limited amount of cargo they can carry.
90 Flighty : Yes and by the way. 764ER is not a cheap airplane. The above analysis forgets that Delta's widebodies are well depreciated. 764s new from Boeing can'
91 sankaps : I think perhaps the comparison was being made to operating CASM, not including aircraft cost.
92 DUSint : Right. This is what I tried to suggest here:
93 LV : I was just thinking the other night with the economic meltdown going on in Europe some of the airlines may be finding the A321 might not be the mid h
94 sankaps : Flighty -- it depends on what you are measuring for. For fleet decisions, of course aircraft acqusition / ownership costs are included. But once the a
95 peachair : That is NOT correct. The work done in the test cells in May has nothing to do with the Trents or GE90 engines. If you were there, you would have been
96 brilondon : I just hope that they put in new interiors and not the current ones... I doubt that any European airline would be that short sighted knowing that whe
97 Burkhard : Growth in aircraft size is needed for the routes to South America, ATL-LIM as example has gone from B763 to A333. 10 more A333 would fit exactly into
98 scbriml : It really doesn't matter that much with 'power by the hour' type agreements. Several other non-RR A330 operators have selected RR for top-up orders.
99 Post contains images Triple7Lr : You guys are right DL doesn't on the gates on E concourse. I went over to A & B Concourse today and guess what.......they have freshly painted A3
100 Post contains links 727LOVER : I actually did a thread about AA and UA back in 2003 Why Didn't AA Or UA Order 767-400? (by 727LOVER Aug 20 2003 in Civil Aviation) AFAIK, DL still h
101 1337Delta764 : What many fail to accept is that there are several routes in DL's system where the 764ER is more appropriate than the A332. The A332 wouldn't provide
102 United1 : Now that is an interesting twist....so looking at the economics of an A321 vs a B739ER where are routes that DL flies where a A321 would outperform?
103 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Northwest Airlines bought five passenger 747s used when they were still in production. Two were 747-135s from National Airlines. National quit flying
104 rwy04lga : But not the range. Not true...I do.
105 Viscount724 : The size of a premium class cabin is entirely up to the airline. Didn't CO operate some 764s with a smaller J cabin on certain routes?
106 sxf24 : Delta said they won't be exclusive to Boeing or to Airbus. You should give up on this fallacy.
107 United1 : They did....4 of them to be exact. They are all about to be or have been converted to the standard UA configuration at this point however. I don't th
108 American 767 : It may be. But keep in mind that Delta would still not be flying the A330 if they didn't merge with Northwest. Maybe they would look at it now but I
109 N821NW : Could you prove to us that Boeing can deliver the B764ER's faster then Airbus can deliver its A332's? From what I know Boeing is decreasing the B767
110 American 767 : It depends on how quickly Delta will decide to order 764ERs from Boeing, I doubt it will happen in reality I just imagine a scenario. According to Ai
111 Post contains links XFSUgimpLB41X : http://flightaware.com/live/flight/D...1/history/20130526/0315Z/WSSS/KATL This should settle questions on the 767-400ER vs. the A330-200. I should add
112 United1 : ~60 orders are outstanding for the 767 at this point....most of them freighters.
113 Post contains images PM : Which would explain why Airbus have sold 576 A330-200s and Boeing have sold ... er, 38 767-400ERs. I don't believe anyone has suggested that, have th
114 aircal62 : Wasn't the 767-400 designed specifically for Delta and Continental? It is an aircraft that at least Delta likes, but I cannot see them ordering more o
115 Post contains images scbriml : When DL order is not relevant. I'm afraid you have this completely wrong! To the end of April, Airbus had a backlog of 269 A330s and Boeing 63 767s. H
116 Post contains links PM : Some like to believe this. Others think it's just a myth to cover the disappointing sales of the model. Bear in mind that ILFC ordered the 767-400ER
117 BlueSky1976 : No. This is one of the most famous a.net myths, populated by Boeing cheerleaders. Boeing designed 767-400 to compete with A330-200. Boeing took world
118 Post contains images astuteman : I wouldn't be so sure if we're talking new-build. The 242t version today has a nominal range of 6 100 Nm with 295 pax, and can have the centre wing t
119 sankaps : Yes not too long ago (late 1990s or early 2000s, I think it was), AA, CO, and DL all announced exclusive sourcing agreements with Boeing. Not one of
120 scbriml : It seems to be for two main reasons - some can't accept that the A330 is a fine plane (indeed, IMHO, the A333 is something far better than just 'fine
121 Post contains images N821NW : Could not agree more my friend!
122 Vinniewinnie : I've read the thread with great interest and no-one fails to accept that. What people seem to be saying if my understanding is correct is that provid
123 PM : My assumption has always been that these will be new builds. If they are looking at second hand A330s, there are a few out there. If they want to sta
124 N821NW : Not sure many airlines would buy/lease ex-Kingfisher airplanes after I have read what they have done to those poor birds...and I'm not saying this me
125 PM : I agree. Otherwise, it's new builds or lease some used A330s with RR or GE - but they might struggle to find ten or so all of equal ability and with
126 Post contains images 727LOVER : Can you please elaborate? or.....or.....or..... DL could dump their 764.....and UA could pick THOSE up....
127 fanoftristars : Wouldn't it be funny with all the complaining Richard Anderson does about the ex-im bank financing if Delta went ahead and took favorable European fin
128 Post contains images N821NW : What airline would want to take the risk of buying/leasing a airplane that could have improper paper work? If you know airline that does please tell
129 Post contains links and images anfromme : As has already been pointed out, the A321 is just a sub-type of the A320 family, of which Delta already have more than 100. Technically, there is les
130 KC135TopBoom : I already said that. No sir, you are so wrong. List prices of new build airplanes from the OEMs is ALWAYS the starting point for the negotiations to
131 727LOVER : Sorry,.....I haven't kept up with As The Kingfisher Turns
132 Post contains images Clipper136 : There are many here who think that A321 is not needed in DLs fleet because of the B739ER order. But maybe a few to compete directly with AA on the tra
133 Post contains images N821NW : Believe me I cried for a week or two when I learned that my favorite airline in India had "destroyed" innocent Airbuses... Sorry but in esthetics alo
134 B777ER : There is only one question I have a this deal seems done. Will DALPA be able to get the 739ER and the A321's pay banded in the same category as the 75
135 RayChuang : DL could order the A333, but it has to be the higher gross weight variant that will allow the plane to fly from LAX to NRT, ICN and PEK with essential
136 sankaps : I have actually negotiated new aircraft purchases for airlines. Of course the starting point (for what that's worth) is the list price, but the price
137 goldenstate : The work was for something else. Neither the Trent nor GE90 have been correlated in Delta's test cells and there are absolutely no plans to do so. Th
138 1337Delta764 : No. The 739ER payscale is lower than the 757/763 payscale, but higher than the 73G/738 payscale. No such payscale has been established for the A321 a
139 mayor : Probably a good thing that Richard doesn't write the official history of the airline. No matter how you write it DL's and NW's histories parallel eac
140 Blueshamu330s : For the love of God, this mythical crap regarding the virtues of the B764 has to be debunked once and for all. Boeing approached Britannia with a prop
141 sankaps : As both the CEO and the VP of Fleet Planning are from the NWA side of the merger, I think DL will absolutely be open to ordering Airbus... but as was
142 yellowtail : There is only one problem with this whole 321 theory. While DL is ok with the 320s, they do not like the 319. The 319 is the only aircraft in their fl
143 mayor : And where did you get your info?? I got this, next, straight from the DL Heritage Museum website: (referring to the -400) "Delta was the launch custo
144 XFSUgimpLB41X : Your logic is incorrect. The last time I saw RA speak, he mentioned how much he likes the economics of the 321.[Edited 2013-05-27 11:23:51]
145 sxf24 : Delta (and most other airlines) don't like the A319 because it has horrible per-seat costs.
146 SA7700 : A lot of posts had to be removed from this thread thus far, as it was in violation of the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. Please take time to
147 bobnwa : I think the Delta piilot are very well paid at their current levels. They currently are at the 95 percentile of all U.S. wage earners
148 UALWN : So, when the A340 sells poorly compared to the 777, it's because the A340 is a dog, but when the 764 sells a total of 37 units, while the A332 sells 5
149 Burkhard : There are not many legs in Delta's network that require more than 6000 miles range... All of Latin America and all of Europe are fully in this range,
150 SkyTeamTriStar : Why have so many airlines around the globe have gone with the 77W, instead of buying more 744's? I dont get why RA would say this...
151 Post contains images Blueshamu330s : Mayor, I'm struggling to see where we differ in opinion. That Delta was a launch customer is in no doubt. Few would contest that fact. What was in dis
152 Post contains links and images anfromme : I rather believe Boeing and their track record of public announcements, press releases and actions on this, to be honest. They staged a heavy marketi
153 1337Delta764 : Ed Bastian's statement on the 764ER was made back in either 2006 or 2007 in an Investor Day conference. If you do a search in the forums, there was e
154 AngMoh : Because DL does not have the same business model as other airlines. They stick to low CAPEX and accept higher (but still acceptable) operating expens
155 1337Delta764 : Again, there is already an established 739ER payscale, which will be paid between the 73G/738 and the 752/763/763. There is no established payscale f
156 alitalia744 : If I was a betting man: Delta will get additional A330s. Delta will get a small subfleet of A321s. No more 767s unless they're low-cycle and avail at
157 Post contains images PEK777 : This is all very interesting, but when is Delta retiring the DC-9s?
158 SkyTeamTriStar : Thanks! To me, that makes sense.
159 mesaflyguy : According to a DC-9 pilot I chatted with on Saturday, Jan/Feb.
160 goldenstate : This thread is about airplanes that Delta is actually interested in acquiring more of. Therefore, any discussion of the 764ER is irrelevant. Great co
161 Post contains images mayor : I have no factual links to go to and verify this, but all I remember, at the time, was the rumor (pretty strong at the time) of exactly this.......th
162 XFSUgimpLB41X : From what I've heard, Boeing charged DL the same for them as for a 777 to try to get DL to just give in and get the 777, but DL wanted the 764. Any c
163 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Delta may add a few Airbus A330 aircraft as they inherited A330s from Northwest Airlines. As far as A321s, Delta does not yet have any need for this
164 mayor : Never heard a rumor of that, but it certainly did take a long time (or so it seems) for DL to decide on 777s. It always makes me wonder how things mi
165 1337Delta764 : DL had a historic preference for Douglas aircraft, and the MD-11 proves it in addition to the MD-88 and MD-90. The only major exception to the rule w
166 mayor : Yes, but at that point, we were quite a big Boeing customer, too. Don't forget, we bought 747s in 1970 as well as 727s in the 70s. At one time, we ha
167 XFSUgimpLB41X : Airline histories are definitely an assortment of that. NW came so close to getting the A340 that spare parts had already been ordered for the variou
168 goldenstate : Maybe he would have gotten fired sooner.
169 Post contains images columba : 2025 after they picked up the crew that flew the last A319 in the desert
170 FlyBigDeltaJets : Joined a.net just for this. As the resident test cell engineer for DL, I can tell you that you couldn't be farther from the truth. The cells in ATL w
171 DTWPurserBoy : The joke at NW was that Donald Nyrop, then CEO, reportedly stated "If I want to buy jet engines I call Pratt and Whitney. If I want to buy light bulb
172 airbazar : And there will be plenty of "depricated" A330s in the market, replaced by 787's and A350's. They have the 744s and 772s for those routes. The A333 (e
173 Post contains images Blueshamu330s : Welcome to the mad house !! Very interesting; thanks for this information. Now you've joined, I do hope you stick around. There's usually an unhealth
174 burnsie28 : Not complicating the fleet, no different then adding the 739.
175 DTWPurserBoy : That mad me laugh. I have to remember that term. Nice turn of a phrase.
176 clemsonaj : I think equine efflux could also be appropriate. Seriously, please stick around, continue to offer insight, and don't be offended by the trolls.
177 Post contains images OA412 : As others have mentioned, we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that any potential A330 order is for the 332. My money is on the 333 being ordered. With
178 0NEWAIR0 : I don't have a source I can link to, but hasn't it been known for years that the -400 was offered specifically because Delta (and Continental?) asked
179 Post contains links 1337Delta764 : Here it is: RE: DL CEO Says 764 Developed Specifically For Delta (by EI321 Apr 4 2007 in Civil Aviation) Unfortunately, the video is no longer active
180 FlyASAGuy2005 : Okay took me a while to chime in but wanted to see for myself. I've been so busy at work hadn't had time to take a ride over to the field but I saw th
181 Blueshamu330s : Any chance we might get back to the topic? The hint is in the thread title, or does every Delta thread have to deviate into a boring bun fight about t
182 FlyASAGuy2005 : Some chose to veer the topic way off base. I simply ignore the side conversation. See my post above. I think it's interesting that DL chose to add 32
183 SA7700 : A request was posted on behalf of the moderators, asking members to steer clear of rule violating posts. Despite this request and post removals, some
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