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RUMOR: DL To Order 30 A321 + 10 A330  
User currently offlineTriple7Lr From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 95 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 34086 times:

Let me start by saying I normally don't post rumors or feed into them but this one is gaining traction. I came across a post on a pilot blog a week ago about a possible order but I blew it off, pilots are always starting rumors. However the city of ATL just happened to paint A321 on all of parking lines on E concourse yesterday. It reminds me of the 717 acquisition. It was rumored, then the lines appeared then, the agreement with WN was announced. It fits into there fleet strategy its a proven aircraft and they have tons of economic data on it. Plus I'm sure they'll be able to get them at a favorable price. What do you guys think?

183 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 34095 times:

Quoting Triple7Lr (Thread starter):
Let me start by saying I normally don't post rumors or feed into them but this one is gaining traction. I came across a post on a pilot blog a week ago about a possible order but I blew it off, pilots are always starting rumors. However the city of ATL just happened to paint A321 on all of parking lines on E concourse yesterday. It reminds me of the 717 acquisition. It was rumored, then the lines appeared then, the agreement with WN was announced. It fits into there fleet strategy its a proven aircraft and they have tons of economic data on it. Plus I'm sure they'll be able to get them at a favorable price. What do you guys think?

The A321 rumor has been going on for years. DL has already ordered the 739ER, and just because more fleet types were added with the NW merger doesn't mean DL must further complicate its fleet by adding more and more types. Furthermore, DL does NOT own the gates at Concourse E; they are common use gates, and probably the lines were added to accommodate any airline with A321s who intends on using the E gates.

[Edited 2013-05-25 16:20:53]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4191 posts, RR: 37
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 34023 times:

The Director of Flight ops just completed his A320 type. I'm hearing that the are close to a deal with this exact number of orders.


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently onlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 927 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 33962 times:

Quoting Triple7Lr (Thread starter):

All you mentioned was the A321s. Nothing about the A330s.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 1):

     
My point exactly.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4191 posts, RR: 37
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 33826 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 3):
All you mentioned was the A321s. Nothing about the A330s.

An RFP is out for a widebody order. Something will be announced soon.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 33829 times:

Ahh yes, the paint lines at the gate rumor. Whoever is in charge of painting the lines on the ramp must be closely tied to the CEOs of every airline. I can't count the number airline rumors that have started from something this.

Recently the CEO was quoted as saying Delta will 'wait until the new gen aircraft prove themselves' and I was assuming this was in reference to the A320NEO and A350. Maybe these orders are just to hold them over until then.



These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 33848 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 4):
An RFP is out for a widebody order. Something will be announced soon.

I am putting my money on the 77W. Even though DL has updated the interiors of the 744, the oldest aircraft were built in the 80s and need replacing soon.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 5):
Ahh yes, the paint lines at the gate rumor. Whoever is in charge of painting the lines on the ramp must be closely tied to the CEOs of every airline. I can't count the number airline rumors that have started from something this.

The main flaw here is that the E gates are not DL-owned gates, they are common use gates that any airline can use, and probably the lines for the A321 were put in place to accommodate any airline with A321s who need to use them (remember that all international arrivals are required to use either Concourse E or F).

[Edited 2013-05-25 16:33:54]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 33761 times:

Quoting Triple7Lr (Thread starter):
Let me start by saying I normally don't post rumors or feed into them but this one is gaining traction.

Bloomberg was on the widebody part of this a couple of months ago:

Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order (by AeroWesty Mar 20 2013 in Civil Aviation)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4191 posts, RR: 37
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 33684 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
I am putting my money on the 77W. Even though DL has updated the interiors of the 744, the oldest aircraft were built in the 80s and need replacing soon.

The last order went to Boeing. This one will likely be Airbus.

The 744s are going to stick around for a good while.

As far as the 321s, there's likely a very good reason why the DO just got checked out..

[Edited 2013-05-25 16:38:21]


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 33646 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 8):
The last order went to Boeing. This one will likely be Airbus.

Doubt it. As they did last time with the 739ER, Boeing will provide DL a really sweet deal that Airbus will be unable to match. Boeing cannot afford to lose DL, considering that they have already lost several loyal customers to Airbus, and DL is pretty much the last one standing not counting any LCCs (and no, UA doesn't count since they still have A350s on order).

Fact is, A321s don't make any sense since DL has already ordered the 739ER, thus adding a redundant type, and the oldest 744 is older than the oldest 763ER (not to mention the fact that the 763ER has a higher cycle limit than the 744), so the 77W is more likely than the A330.

[Edited 2013-05-25 16:46:19]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19410 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 33509 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 8):
The last order went to Boeing. This one will likely be Airbus.

This one will go to the OEM who gives them the best offer. It will depend on little other than that.

You must understand that Mr. Anderson does not run the company like a dictator. He answers to a Board of Directors. He gets information from various employees whose job it is to run the numbers and figure out whether the 739ER or A321 will fit their fleet better and for less money. If he grants a contract for any reason other than that without being instructed to do so by the BOD, he will get fired by the BOD.

However, if DL requires A330-sized aircraft, then the A330 is the obvious choice. The 787 is much more expensive and the wait for it is much longer. They already have A330s in the fleet and so they can order them in small numbers ("top-ups") without racking up huge expenses.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 33517 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):

You must understand that Mr. Anderson does not run the company like a dictator. He answers to a Board of Directors. He gets information from various employees whose job it is to run the numbers and figure out whether the 739ER or A321 will fit their fleet better and for less money. If he grants a contract for any reason other than that without being instructed to do so by the BOD, he will get fired by the BOD.

Which is why the A321 doesn't make any financial sense, since it would be redundant with the 739ER and would add unnecessary fleet complexity. Inheriting A32x aircraft from NW was one thing, however, it doesn't mean it makes any sense that DL should further complicate its fleet. In the long run, fleet simplification WILL occur.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
However, if DL requires A330-sized aircraft, then the A330 is the obvious choice. The 787 is much more expensive and the wait for it is much longer. They already have A330s in the fleet and so they can order them in small numbers ("top-ups") without racking up huge expenses.

However, the 744 replacement is likely higher priority than the 763ER replacement, since the oldest 744 is older than the oldest 763ER, as well as the fact that the 763ER has a higher cycle limit than the 744.

[Edited 2013-05-25 16:55:50]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30580 posts, RR: 84
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 33382 times:
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Delta has a massive 757-200 fleet and I expect there are missions where the A321-200 makes a better replacement than the 737-900ER so a small order of 30 doesn't seem ridiculous.

And based on Mr. Anderson's comments, he's more interested in the 787-9 and 787-10 than the 787-8s he currently has on order. And I expect the pricing to DL for those 787-8s have gone up a fair bit due to the length of the deferment (which would trigger the price escalation clauses) and we don't know what pricing, if any, NW secured for possible 787-9 orders. As such, the price DL would have to pay for a 787-9 or 787-10 could be closer to current market rates, which should be a fair bit higher than what they can secure new A330s from Airbus for.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 33312 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
And based on Mr. Anderson's comments, he's more interested in the 787-9 and 787-10 than the 787-8s he currently has on order. And I expect the pricing to DL for those 787-8s have gone up a fair bit due to the length of the deferment (which would trigger the price escalation clauses) and we don't know what pricing, if any, NW secured for possible 787-9 orders. As such, the price DL would have to pay for a 787-9 or 787-10 could be closer to current market rates, which should be a fair bit higher than what they can secure new A330s from Airbus for.

Of course, Boeing could actually give DL a really good deal on 764ERs for an even lower price than any A330. I'm not saying Boeing will actually do this, however, the 764ER works flawlessly for DL across the Atlantic on routes that do not require the additional range or cargo capacity of the A332, and has a lower CASM than both the 763ER and A332, and could be useful for upgauging some of the more profitable 763ER routes. Considering that DL is a fan of limited run aircraft types (MD-90 and 717 immediately come to mind), the 764ER should not be ruled out.

[Edited 2013-05-25 17:08:53]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDL_Mech From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1926 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 33287 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 11):
However, the 744 replacement is likely higher priority than the 763ER replacement, since the oldest 744 is older than the oldest 763ER, as well as the fact that the 763ER has a higher cycle limit than the 744.

The 744s have lower hours/cycles than the early 763ERs.

Search here (leave the "N" off of the registration number):

http://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/Query.aspx



This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 566 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 33245 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Fact is, A321s don't make any sense since DL has already ordered the 739ER, thus adding a redundant type, and the oldest 744 is older than the oldest 763ER (not to mention the fact that the 763ER has a higher cycle limit than the 744), so the 77W is more likely than the A330.

Prepare to be disappointed.


User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 1992 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 33170 times:

Anyone got a bunch of second hand A321's up for sale right now ?  

User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5232 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 33050 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
Boeing could actually give DL a really good deal on 764ERs for an even lower price than any A330.

  DL will not order any new 764's. If they wanted additional frames, they would have ordered them by now.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
the 764ER works flawlessly for DL across the Atlantic on routes that do not require the additional range or cargo capacity of the A332

Flawlessly? Care to back that one up?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
and has a lower CASM than both the 763ER and A332

And in spite of the lower CASM, the market spoke and overwhelmingly chose the A332. DL will not order any more 764s at this point. End of story.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 33058 times:

Ah I love pilot rumor threads.
That Dallas pilot base should be coming any day now and all those used 747s.......

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 2):

Couldn't be because they have 150 airbus in the fleet already?

No clearly for the 30 new 321s lol.


They just fitted the test cell(s) in atlanta for Trent 800 and GE90 runs. That probably means just as much as someone getting qualified on an aircraft type. Nearly nothing.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):

......wow......

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 15):

Depends. Could also be some 777 options used.
Something should happen by June maybe July



yep.
User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 566 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 32958 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 18):
Depends. Could also be some 777 options used.
Something should happen by June maybe July

The widebody piece is not currently expected to be split.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 18):
They just fitted the test cell(s) in atlanta for Trent 800 and GE90 runs. That probably means just as much as someone getting qualified on an aircraft type. Nearly nothing.

Don't know where you heard that but it is not true.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 32880 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 17):
And in spite of the lower CASM, the market spoke and overwhelmingly chose the A332. DL will not order any more 764s at this point. End of story.

That doesn't mean DL has the same requirements as everyone else. DL considered the A332 when replacing the L-1011, but chose the 764ER due to its lower CASM. No, Boeing wasn't pointing a gun at Ron Allen's head; DL chose the 764ER for that very reason.

FYI, if UA unloads its 764ER fleet, DL will pick them up in a flash.

[Edited 2013-05-25 17:44:29]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7210 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 32611 times:

Which airline operates into E that could possibly switch to the A321 though?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
I am putting my money on the 77W. Even though DL has updated the interiors of the 744, the oldest aircraft were built in the 80s and need replacing soon.

This is where a lot of airlines are going to be focusing on for a while, especially if they have a sizable fleet of 744s.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6047 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 32474 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 21):
Which airline operates into E that could possibly switch to the A321 though?

Does AA use E?



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 32444 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 22):
Does AA use E?

Nah, T.

This rumor seems to come around every now and again. It'd be nice to see a few more Airbuses, but who knows.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 32368 times:

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 19):

Lol I was at the test cell last week while they were doing the work.

Both large cells can now run up to a 115,000lbs engine. Unsure(but unlikely) if they will add this to the large cell in MSP. (Currently 70k I believe)

And on the spilt, I know it's not suppose to be spilt right now, but my understanding its not out of the possibility.



Of course the last time this happened, I was pretty sure they would order 100 321s maybe Beoing will show up with a last minute offer.



yep.
User currently offlinealitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4742 posts, RR: 45
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 34116 times:

A few things:

the 739ER order does not mean they won't order the Airbus.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on A321s in Delta's Citgo livery at some point.

There will be no more 767-400ER orders, whether you 1736Delta764 want it or not.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30580 posts, RR: 84
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 33878 times:
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Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
Of course, Boeing could actually give DL a really good deal on 764ERs for an even lower price than any A330.

Sure, but delivery positions are going to be an issue unless someone else is willing to step aside as the backlog for the 767 stands at 63, which is many years worth of production.


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 34551 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):

And iirc airbus is about to kick up 330 production right?

Ugh I just wish the current fleet had CF6s or Trent 700s the Two big PW4000 are such a disappointment



yep.
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 32842 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 27):
Ugh I just wish the current fleet had CF6s or Trent 700s

Maybe they will...  

Er, the new ones, that is!

[Edited 2013-05-25 20:39:13]

User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4191 posts, RR: 37
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 32015 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 18):
Couldn't be because they have 150 airbus in the fleet already?

No clearly for the 30 new 321s lol.

RA was riding along with him for at least part of it as well.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
Of course, Boeing could actually give DL a really good deal on 764ERs for an even lower price than any A330. I'm not saying Boeing will actually do this, however, the 764ER works flawlessly for DL across the Atlantic on routes that do not require the additional range or cargo capacity of the A332, and has a lower CASM than both the 763ER and A332, and could be useful for upgauging some of the more profitable 763ER routes. Considering that DL is a fan of limited run aircraft types (MD-90 and 717 immediately come to mind), the 764ER should not be ruled out.

No new 764s will happen, I can guarantee you that. I'll give this widebody order a 90% chance of being 330s. They are primarily looking for point to point capability from the west coast to Asia. The 764 cannot do that.


Also, in regard to the 321- it carries more and has more powerful motors than the 739ER. With all the 757s that need to be replaced, it would be highly logical to add those to the fleet.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 31659 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 29):
RA was riding along with him for at least part of it as well.

I am still completely unsure what this has to do with anything.

I bet Anderson has been in Dallas too.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 29):
Also, in regard to the 321- it carries more and has more powerful motors than the 739ER.

The 737-900ER can replace the 57s, when they can't replace them, the 321 can't either.

Its not a hot rod, but the 739 will do the job fine. Its not a hot rod like pilots want. (and thankfully they don't worry about pilots when picking aircraft)

As for PAX the 321 in Delta config will be right at 180 just like the 900s.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 29):
The 764 cannot do that.

Uh...what new routes can the 332 add for Delta? The only real route(s) the 332 can do that Delta could add....LAX-ICN and SEA-HKG.

If Asia is what they are looking for, the 777 is the only real answer. (or 787) 330 doesn't have the range. (and its even more limited thanks to the PW4000)

Quoting PM (Reply 28):

not holding my breath. Maybe CF6s happen thanks to the 767 fleet. No idea how comparable the E1 is to the 67 engine.



yep.
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4191 posts, RR: 37
Reply 31, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 31541 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 30):
I am still completely unsure what this has to do with anything.

I bet Anderson has been in Dallas too.

Why do you keep bringing up Dallas? Wishful thinking from some to reopen DFW? That's never had any validity to it. It's well known DL is in negotiations for more Airbii, though.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 30):
The 737-900ER can replace the 57s, when they can't replace them, the 321 can't either.

True, however the new build 321s are more capable with payload carriage and have significantly higher thrust engines than the 739ER.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 30):
Uh...what new routes can the 332 add for Delta? The only real route(s) the 332 can do that Delta could add....LAX-ICN and SEA-HKG.

Just repeating stated goals from flight ops. Whatever it is, bring on the widebodies, and they aren't slated to be replacement aircraft.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 31386 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 31):
Just repeating stated goals from flight ops. Whatever it is, bring on the widebodies, and they aren't slated to be replacement aircraft.

Since you're a pilot, I'm sure you've heard this before.........:


There are lies, damned lies and pilot rumors  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinedtwlax From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 31274 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
robably the lines for the A321 were put in place to accommodate any airline with A321s who need to use them (remember that all international arrivals are required to use either Concourse E or F).

Which international airline can/will operate A321s into ATL?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
the 77W is more likely than the A330.

RA was at NW when NW ordered the A330s. RA knows well whether the A330s will work for DL or not. If he wants them, he will order them. Does not matter what people on anet have to say.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4191 posts, RR: 37
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 31189 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 32):
There are lies, damned lies and pilot rumors

And then the worst of them all, rumors from mechanics.  

And when I say from flight ops, I mean it's from mgmt level, not just cockpit chatter.

[Edited 2013-05-25 22:43:59]


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 31189 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 30):
not holding my breath

Nor am I but I can hope.  
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 30):
Maybe CF6s happen thanks to the 767 fleet.

Well, I'm hardly objective when it comes to RR but the facts do speak for themselves. Fifty-four percent (54%) of A330s built have RR Trents and RR have by far the lion's share of the current backlog. PW have 22% of A330s built and virtually nothing of the backlog.

A330s with Trents must have a higher resale value.

And we already have the precedent of US Airways switching from unloved PW4000s to Trent 700 for new orders of the A330.

Just saying...  


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7989 posts, RR: 5
Reply 36, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 31076 times:

While the A330-200 in its current production version has to range to fly from LAX/SFO/SEA to Japan, South Korea and northeastern China, I wonder has DL thought about alternatives like buying more 787's?

User currently offlineHSVflier From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 30862 times:

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 5):
Ahh yes, the paint lines at the gate rumor. Whoever is in charge of painting the lines on the ramp must be closely tied to the CEOs of every airline. I can't count the number airline rumors that have started from something this.

Recently the CEO was quoted as saying Delta will 'wait until the new gen aircraft prove themselves' and I was assuming this was in reference to the A320NEO and A350. Maybe these orders are just to hold them over until then.

HSV has 767 and 757 lines at their gates or at least did not sure if they are still there. Point is HSV gets neither of those aircraft and are likely there for diversions from ATL.



Flown DL, UA, CO, WN, LH, TZ, WO, AA, US, LO, HA, PX, NW, KE, AB, QR, LX, EE, 5Y
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 38, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 30726 times:

Quoting HSVflier (Reply 37):
HSV has 767 and 757 lines at their gates or at least did not sure if they are still there. Point is HSV gets neither of those aircraft and are likely there for diversions from ATL.

This is true.......when I worked at SHV for DL, we were a diversion point for DFW and we had to be able to handle whatever type a/c that DFW would handle.....other smaller cities are in the same position.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 34):
And then the worst of them all, rumors from mechanics.

I'm guessing this was aimed at me. Sorry, not a mechanic. Well, working on the ramp or cargo, we didn't bother with unsubstantiated rumors......we just did our jobs and just waited for the rumors to come true, rather than starting them or spreading them.  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinePacific From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2000, 1051 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 30691 times:

Airbus does claim a range of 13,400km and 13,900km for the A330-200 on their website, depending on which page you look at on their website. That is further than the claimed range of an A340-300 and 747-400!

User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4191 posts, RR: 37
Reply 40, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 30603 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 38):
I'm guessing this was aimed at me. Sorry, not a mechanic. Well, working on the ramp or cargo, we didn't bother with unsubstantiated rumors......we just did our jobs and just waited for the rumors to come true, rather than starting them or spreading them.

It's not and wasn't intended to be personal. The most outrageous rumors I've heard over the years have all originated and propogated from mechanics. (DFW reopening, a fleet of 767Fs, and a few other real doozies)

Most of the pilots at DL seem to be pretty good about not spreading unsubstantiated rumors, of course with some notable exceptions.

[Edited 2013-05-25 23:35:03]


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2946 posts, RR: 3
Reply 41, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 29830 times:

Quoting dtwlax (Reply 33):
Which international airline can/will operate A321s into ATL?

TACA? Does Air Jamaica operate A321s anymore?

Quoting LV (Reply 16):
Anyone got a bunch of second hand A321's up for sale right now ?

Kingfisher Airlines?
Just kidding.

Here something from the outfield.
Perhaps AA/US & DL are talking about a A321 swap where US exchanges the CFM powered ones with A320 from DL.


User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9977 posts, RR: 96
Reply 42, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 29439 times:
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Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 30):
If Asia is what they are looking for, the 777 is the only real answer. (or 787) 330 doesn't have the range. (and its even more limited thanks to the PW4000)

Referring to the capabilities and powerplant of ageing A330's in the fleet doesn't mean a lot when new-builds will be WAY more capable (near-as-dammit as capable as the 787-8), are EMINENTLY capable of Transpac, and available with GE or RR power...

Rgds


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 43, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 28535 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 11):
Which is why the A321 doesn't make any financial sense, since it would be redundant with the 739ER and would add unnecessary fleet complexity.

The 321 is just a variant of the 320 family, of which Delta has a whole lot. So it is not like adding a new aircraft type altogether.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 11):
However, the 744 replacement is likely higher priority than the 763ER replacement, since the oldest 744 is older than the oldest 763ER, as well as the fact that the 763ER has a higher cycle limit than the 744.
DL indeed has the first 744s ever built, including the prototype (N661US). But age has nothing to do with when they will be replaced, and these have much fewer cycles IIRC, about 50% less, than the 744s recently retired by LH.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 20):
DL considered the A332 when replacing the L-1011, but chose the 764ER due to its lower CASM. No, Boeing wasn't pointing a gun at Ron Allen's head; DL chose the 764ER for that very reason.

Ron Allen's Delta had a exclusive supplier arrangement with Boeing at the time, much like AA had. Stupid idea to begin with, and this is a different Delta today. Incidentally, the A330 has higher RASM potential than the 764 due to its higher payload (especially cargo) capacity.

Quoting dtwlax (Reply 33):
RA was at NW when NW ordered the A330s. RA knows well whether the A330s will work for DL or not. If he wants them, he will order them. Does not matter what people on anet have to say.

Exactly. Richard Anderson goes by the numbers in these kinds of decisions, and nothing else.

[Edited 2013-05-26 02:36:11]

User currently offlineawacsooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 28516 times:

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 15):
Prepare to be disappointed.

Really? Care to back it up with FACTS? Or is it just more wishful thinking?


User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2076 posts, RR: 4
Reply 45, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 27788 times:

It's only a few week until Le Bourget.  


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 46, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 27123 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 45):
It's only a few week until Le Bourget.

Sounds like an order that could be announced there  



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 47, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 26499 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
I am putting my money on the 77W

RA has already stated the 77W is too expensive

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
Of course, Boeing could actually give DL a really good deal on 764ERs for an even lower price than any A330.

Couldn't wait for 764 to be tossed in by you. A332 is a better aircraft in just about all categories. I know you hate that fact but it is true.


User currently offlineDUSint From Germany, joined Apr 2013, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 26092 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 47):
A332 is a better aircraft in just about all categories. I know you hate that fact but it is true.

...and then, there is also the A330-300... Which wasn't mentioned in this thread. Why? Would it not be the logical choice for Delta, esp. when you consider the progress in MTOW and range which has made the 333 nearly as capable as the 343 (with much lower operating costs)?


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7210 posts, RR: 17
Reply 49, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 25952 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 47):
RA has already stated the 77W is too expensive

Once the 7810 comes online, it won't be



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 50, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 25552 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 49):

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 47):
RA has already stated the 77W is too expensive

Once the 7810 comes online, it won't be

I think that DL might pick up some used 777Ws at some point, maybe when EK starts to retire their first ones. But right now I don´t believe that DL will order new ones. They have shown that they can make money with older airplanes and that they don´t mind picking up 2nd airplanes.

I think the A330 might be a very good airplane for DL, so if they really order new planes right now the A330-300 seems to me a strong candidate

[Edited 2013-05-26 06:08:38]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 51, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 25466 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 50):
They have shown that they can make money with older airplanes and that they don´t mind picking up 2nd airplanes.

I think this "DL does not mind picking up used airplanes" theory is being a bit misapplied. Both DL and NW have indeed bought lots of used airplanes, but almost always these were out of production models that they liked -- the DC9, the DC10, the L1011, the 747 classic, and the 717.

But they also usually bought in-production aircraft new, right upto and including 744s, MD11s, 777s, 737s, A320s, and A330s. So I would say they prefer to pick up new airplanes unless they are no longer made.


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 52, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 25047 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 51):
I think this "DL does not mind picking up used airplanes" theory is being a bit misapplied. Both DL and NW have indeed bought lots of used airplanes, but almost always these were out of production models that they liked -- the DC9, the DC10, the L1011, the 747 classic, and the 717.

But they also usually bought in-production aircraft new, right upto and including 744s, MD11s, 777s, 737s, A320s, and A330s. So I would say they prefer to pick up new airplanes unless they are no longer made.

Let me rephrase it, DL and NW have a history to find what suits they needs best by ordering new build planes and 2nd planes. Still, if the 777W is to expensive for them I can see them picking up 2nd 777Ws when the first start to phase them out and use them to replace their older 747s rather than ordering new ones. For growth right now I can see them pick up some more A330s as they are a lot cheaper than 777s especially 77Ws.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently onlinemsp747 From United States of America, joined May 2010, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 24416 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 35):

Well, I'm hardly objective when it comes to RR but the facts do speak for themselves. Fifty-four percent (54%) of A330s built have RR Trents and RR have by far the lion's share of the current backlog. PW have 22% of A330s built and virtually nothing of the backlog.

A330s with Trents must have a higher resale value.

What engines does the current 330 fleet have? I would put my money on the new order having the same engines. Why introduce a new type of engine for only 10 planes? And DL is not worried about resale. They have proven they will fly the planes for their entire useful life


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 54, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 23938 times:

Quoting msp747 (Reply 53):
What engines does the current 330 fleet have? I would put my money on the new order having the same engines.

The A330s have Pratt engines. My understanding is that is at least partly because NWA had some kind of historical agreement / settlement with Pratt that made it financially beneficial for them to order Pratts. But if DL are ordering a reasonable number of new A330s, they could still pick RR assuming the NW-Pratt historical advantage is no longer a factor.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8406 posts, RR: 2
Reply 55, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 23878 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 52):
Still, if the 777W is to expensive for them I can see them picking up 2nd 777Ws when the first start to phase them out and use them to replace their older 747s rather than ordering new ones. For growth right now I can see them pick up some more A330s as they are a lot cheaper than 777s especially 77Ws.

DL usually buys _depreciated_ aircraft (aircraft considered to be old, but that can operate fantastically with DL/NW Tech Ops help).

77W is not depreciated. It is super expensive. Delta will wait to buy used A330 or 77W when they are cheaper -- in 5 to 10 years. Otherwise, they will buy new.

772ER is something they could buy used, however. It is getting near old enough.


User currently onlinemsp747 From United States of America, joined May 2010, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 23805 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 54):
But if DL are ordering a reasonable number of new A330s, they could still pick RR assuming the NW-Pratt historical advantage is no longer a factor.

I would agree if they were ordering 50 of them. But for just 10 planes, it seems counterproductive to order RR instead of Pratt. I would also be willing to guess that Pratt would be ready to cut them a deal too, if their backlog is as poor as PM says it is


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 57, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 23669 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 55):
DL usually buys _depreciated_ aircraft (aircraft considered to be old, but that can operate fantastically with DL/NW Tech Ops help).

Again, I am not aware of any time where DL/NW have bought in-production aircraft second-hand, even if depreciated.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 58, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 23253 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 57):
Again, I am not aware of any time where DL/NW have bought in-production aircraft second-hand, even if depreciated.

Without too much effort I found 737-300s purchased second-hand by Delta in 1998 from multiple operators, such as Germania and Western Pacific, while the 300/400/500 series was still in production.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineasqx From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 23167 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 57):
Again, I am not aware of any time where DL/NW have bought in-production aircraft second-hand, even if depreciated.

A few 757s (the 4 ex-ATA 75Vs) and the 7 ex-Gulf Air 767s spring to mind of examples in the current fleet of Delta purchasing used but still in production aircraft (the ex-TWA/AA 75Es came after the production line was shut down IIRC).


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 60, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 23087 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 58):
Without too much effort I found 737-300s purchased second-hand by Delta in 1998 from multiple operators, such as Germania and Western Pacific, while the 300/400/500 series was still in production.
Quoting asqx (Reply 59):
A few 757s (the 4 ex-ATA 75Vs) and the 7 ex-Gulf Air 767s spring to mind of examples in the current fleet of Delta purchasing used but still in production aircraft (the ex-TWA/AA 75Es came after the production line was shut down IIRC).

Thanks, I stand corrected then. Any such instances for NW before they merged with Delta?


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 61, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 22979 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 47):
RA has already stated the 77W is too expensive

Do you have any proof, or are you just making up stories?

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 47):
Couldn't wait for 764 to be tossed in by you. A332 is a better aircraft in just about all categories. I know you hate that fact but it is true.

Except operating costs and CASM, which is why DL ordered it in the first place. DL was under no obligation to order it and strongly considered the A332 to replace the L-1011. Anyone who denies this is intentionally not telling the truth.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 43):

Ron Allen's Delta had a exclusive supplier arrangement with Boeing at the time, much like AA had. Stupid idea to begin with, and this is a different Delta today. Incidentally, the A330 has higher RASM potential than the 764 due to its higher payload (especially cargo) capacity.

It was not a stupid idea, since DL felt it was in their best interest; Boeing didn't force DL to sign the agreement. Still, DL considered the A332 unless Boeing were to come out with a proper L-1011 replacement.

[Edited 2013-05-26 08:48:58]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 22874 times:

Some poster think that an A330 order means A332. I would be surprised to see A332s ordered, but expect A333 which deliver more seats and cargo space for basically free.

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8406 posts, RR: 2
Reply 63, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 22827 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 57):
Again, I am not aware of any time where DL/NW have bought in-production aircraft second-hand, even if depreciated.

Yeah but these models are now 15+ years into production. Not trying to say you're wrong at all. I agree Delta will wait until there is significant depreciation -- almost like saying, until they are out of production. But these days, models stay in production for a really long time, like 20 years, it seems.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 64, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 22687 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 60):
Any such instances for NW before they merged with Delta?

I'll bet ya there's some story behind this one:


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



Boeing code is for the Iranian Air Force. This freighter was built in 1979, probably not taken up due to the revolution. So it could be more of a white tail than used.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4238 posts, RR: 1
Reply 65, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 22645 times:
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Quoting LV (Reply 16):
Anyone got a bunch of second hand A321's up for sale right now ?

Funny you phrase it that way. I do believe the IAG folks are prepared to decommission a few. But I have no source and don't want to further feed the rumor mill.

Btw, with 319s and 320s in use at DL every day of the week, the 321 is not really a new type


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 22621 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 61):
It was not a stupid idea

History seems to suggest otherwise. All of the airlines that had these supposedly highly advantageuos sole-sourcing agreements (Delta, American, Continental, and for all practical purposes JAL and ANA) have now changed or are in the process of changing course.

Only Alaska and Southwest seem to buck the trend, but then they don't have too many varied aircraft needs so stickig to one type (and source) makes more sense for them.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 67, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 22625 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 66):
History seems to suggest otherwise. All of the airlines that had these supposedly highly advantageuos sole-sourcing agreements (Delta, American, Continental, and for all practical purposes JAL and ANA) have now changed or are in the process of changing course.

Only Alaska and Southwest seem to buck the trend, but then they don't have too many varied aircraft needs so stickig to one type (and source) makes more sense for them.

However, DL wouldn't have signed it if it provided them no benefit; DL weighed all options when signing it. Boeing didn't force DL to sign the agreement as what most Airbus fans want us to believe.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently onlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1788 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 22522 times:

I wonder if maybe they'll pick up a few from US like they got the 717s from FL?

User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 69, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 22480 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
However, if DL requires A330-sized aircraft, then the A330 is the obvious choice. The 787 is much more expensive and the wait for it is much longer. They already have A330s in the fleet and so they can order them in small numbers ("top-ups") without racking up huge expenses.

So I am going to assume that DL is looking at the A330 as a possible replacement for their 767-300 fleet. If Delta does in fact order more A330 what does this mean for the NW order of 788 that Delta deferred after the merger? If Delta orders new A330 would they still need the 788 were would this plane fit in their fleet or would they cancel NW order outright completely and just go with Airbus?


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 51
Reply 70, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 22509 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 8):
As far as the 321s, there's likely a very good reason why the DO just got checked out..
Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 2):
The Director of Flight ops just completed his A320 type.

The A-321 has a common pilot rating as the A-320s and A-319s already in the fleet. So that in itself means nothing.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
However, if DL requires A330-sized aircraft, then the A330 is the obvious choice. The 787 is much more expensive and the wait for it is much longer. They already have A330s in the fleet and so they can order them in small numbers ("top-ups") without racking up huge expenses.

No, the B-764ER is also a perfect choice and DL has them, too.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Delta has a massive 757-200 fleet and I expect there are missions where the A321-200 makes a better replacement than the 737-900ER so a small order of 30 doesn't seem ridiculous.

And based on Mr. Anderson's comments, he's more interested in the 787-9 and 787-10 than the 787-8s he currently has on order. And I expect the pricing to DL for those 787-8s have gone up a fair bit due to the length of the deferment (which would trigger the price escalation clauses) and we don't know what pricing, if any, NW secured for possible 787-9 orders. As such, the price DL would have to pay for a 787-9 or 787-10 could be closer to current market rates, which should be a fair bit higher than what they can secure new A330s from Airbus for.

Neither the A-321 or B-739ER can do all the missions of the B-752, and certainly not the B-753. Neither one can do TATL, which both models of the B-757 can do.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
Of course, Boeing could actually give DL a really good deal on 764ERs for an even lower price than any A330. I'm not saying Boeing will actually do this, however, the 764ER works flawlessly for DL across the Atlantic on routes that do not require the additional range or cargo capacity of the A332, and has a lower CASM than both the 763ER and A332, and could be useful for upgauging some of the more profitable 763ER routes. Considering that DL is a fan of limited run aircraft types (MD-90 and 717 immediately come to mind), the 764ER should not be ruled out.

        

Quoting OA412 (Reply 17):
DL will not order any new 764's. If they wanted additional frames, they would have ordered them by now.

DL has not placed a WB new build order in a number of years, the last orders being the B-77E/Ls and B-764ERs.

DL does work on price, as well as other factors. The 2012 list prices for Boeing is;

B-737-900ER = $94.6M

B-767-400ER = $200.8M

B-777-300ER = $315.0M

B-787-8 = $206.8M

B-787-9 = $243.6M

B-787-10 = No list prices publicly released.

http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/prices/index.page

The list prices for Airbus is;

A-321 = $107.3M

A-330-200 = $216.1M

A-330-300 = $239.4M

A-350-800 = $254.3M

A-350-1000 = $332.1M

http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/co...?eID=dam_frontend_push&docID=14849

No matter what size airplanes DL wants or needs, the Boeing list prices are lower for near competing airplanes from Airbus. Now we all know airlines, particularly big airlines like DL don't pay full list prices, they can discounts and sometimes huge discounts.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 71, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 22431 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 61):
Do you have any proof, or are you just making up stories?

RA made statement on Delta Extranet about two weeks aGO

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 61):
Except operating costs and CASM, which is why DL ordered it in the first place. DL was under no obligation to order it and strongly considered the A332 to replace the L-1011. Anyone who denies this is intentionally not telling the truth.

Looks like you are getting knots in your nickers about this. I just find it rather predictable that regardless of the subject being discussed, you some how manage to produce some statment concerning the 764 or avod. the topic of this discussion about a rumor that Delta was going to order 30 A321 and 10 A330


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4875 posts, RR: 25
Reply 72, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 22414 times:
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Quoting jayunited (Reply 69):
So I am going to assume that DL is looking at the A330 as a possible replacement for their 767-300 fleet.

No, the A332s, if ordered, would be upplemental. The 767 replacement is really the 787. 2020 EIS for the 787 at DL is pretty much perfect timing for the 763ERs to start exiting the fleet. The 787s will be on the property eventually - just a question of which version.


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 73, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 22365 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 67):

However, DL wouldn't have signed it if it provided them no benefit; DL weighed all options when signing it. Boeing didn't force DL to sign the agreement as what most Airbus fans want us to believe.

Of course DL / Ron Allen and team believed it provided them with some benefit. Dont think anyone suggests Boeing forced them to sign it, there is no way anyone reasonable would suggest that. But history has proved that strategy to be short-sighted or plain wrong.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 70):
No matter what size airplanes DL wants or needs, the Boeing list prices are lower for near competing airplanes from Airbus. Now we all know airlines, particularly big airlines like DL don't pay full list prices, they can discounts and sometimes huge discounts.

List prices mean nothing. Anyone who has had any involvement with aircraft purchasing will tell you that is rule #1.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 74, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 22394 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 70):
RA made statement on Delta Extranet about two weeks aGO

In fact, the list price of the A332 is higher than the 788. DL wouldn't be saving any money by ordering more A332s.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 75, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 22351 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 74):
In fact, the list price of the A332 is higher than the 788. DL wouldn't be saving any money by ordering more A332s.

With respect, you seem to not have much real-world knowledge of aircraft contracts and pricing. List prices mean nothing.


User currently offlinebkflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 22222 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 62):
Some poster think that an A330 order means A332. I would be surprised to see A332s ordered, but expect A333 which deliver more seats and cargo space for basically free.

Exactly. RA just said in an interview this week that "stretched" aircraft have better economics. I suspect that they need the additional frames to expand in SEA and also to grow Asia flying from JFK. Not that these frames would be used, but might allow them to move around the fleet to have to have the right aircraft on each route.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 77, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 22119 times:

Quoting bkflyguy (Reply 76):

Exactly. RA just said in an interview this week that "stretched" aircraft have better economics. I suspect that they need the additional frames to expand in SEA and also to grow Asia flying from JFK. Not that these frames would be used, but might allow them to move around the fleet to have to have the right aircraft on each route.

Yet, Airbus fans continue to argue the A332 has better economics than the 764ER no matter what route, which is a blatant lie due to the 764ER being a stretch and the A332 being a shrink. Stretches INHERENTLY have a lower CASM than shrinks. On routes that do not require the A332's additional range or cargo capacity, the 764ER will be more profitable than the A332, and anyone who denies this is intentionally not telling the truth. Add in the 764ER's larger BusinessElite cabin and that further gives the 764ER an economics advantage on some routes due to the greater fare premium generated.

[Edited 2013-05-26 09:44:39]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 78, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 21839 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 77):
Yet, Airbus fans continue to argue the A332 has better economics than the 764ER no matter what route, which is a blatant lie due to the 764ER being a stretch and the A332 being a shrink.

I think Richard was referring to a stretch within the same airframe, and not an apples-to-oranges comparison between two different airframe families.

If the 764 was such a great aircraft in terms of not just CASM, but in revenue-generating and RASM potential, don't you think many more than two airlines (both with exclusive Boeing contracts at the time) would have ordered them?

[Edited 2013-05-26 10:15:15]

User currently offlineN821NW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 79, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 21751 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
Even though DL has updated the interiors of the 744, the oldest aircraft were built in the 80s and need replacing soon.

Lets see:
First Boeing B747-400 arrived in DL/NW fleet in 1989 so its more 90's then 80's so 2013 - 1989 = 24 years of great service (minus NW25 of course...) and the first Douglas DC-9-50 (still in service) arrived in DL/NW fleet in 1975 so 1975 - 2013 = 38 years of awesome service (as you can see I prefer the Mad Dog family to the 747 family), so I'm saying that we have at the absolute minimum another 14 years of B744 service in DL's fleet, if that is (as I assume) the case there is no need to order any Boeing B777-300ER for the next (at the minimum) 10 years about. Oh and I prefer flying a Airbus A321-200 to a Boeing B737-900ER or a Airbus A330-200/-300 to a Boeing B767-300ER/-400ER and Boeing Boeing B777-200ER (or LR)/-300ER any day, yet again if you just take a second to search my account you will see that I am a die hard Airbus fan...           

Oh and I will pray to all the Airplane gods that DL orders more Airbus planes (like the A320NEO, A321-200, A321NEO, A33X [preferably the -300] and A380).


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 80, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 21609 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 78):
If the 764 was such a great aircraft in terms of not just CASM, but in revenue-generating and RASM potential, don't you think many more than two airlines (both with exclusive Boeing contracts at the time) would have ordered them?

And do you have any proof that the 764ER loses money on every route it flies? The 764ER is considered DL's second most efficient widebody after the A333, and beats the A332 in efficiency on most routes that it flies. The 764ER was tailored to the specifications of DL and CO, and is a highly profitable aircraft for both airlines. The 764ER is in fact placed on the more profitable routes due to its larger BusinessElite cabin while the A332 is generally placed on more leisure-oriented routes.

[Edited 2013-05-26 10:14:39]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently onlinetistpaa727 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 324 posts, RR: 2
Reply 81, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 21518 times:

I guess one logical place to start when discussing a rumor like this is what routes does DL need new widebodies on? I have no clue but I am sure some here can speculate. Once that is determined then we can start to discuss the economics of the different birds and make an educated (slightly objective) guess if these are 330s or 777s.


Don't sweat the little things.
User currently offlineTriple7Lr From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 21532 times:

My bet is on the A330-300 for the wide body order. RA just stated he loved the economics of stretched aircraft this week. The A333 in DL configuration has the same capacity as the B777 at a fraction of the cost. And with the improved efficiencies and economics of the A333 it only makes sense. Not mention it would be perfect for some new west coast to Asia routes. The 764 is not an option.

User currently offlinesxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 21502 times:

Delta has publicly stated they will order from both Airbus and Boeing. Unlike United, they don't see an economic benefit in being exclusive to one manufacturer.

Airbus was livid when Delta order the -900ERs, since Leahy thought they had the deal in the bag. I would expect Delta's next mainline aircraft order be from Airbus, even if it is just to keep both manufacturers engaged for future orders.


User currently online76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 511 posts, RR: 1
Reply 84, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 21495 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 77):
Yet, Airbus fans continue to argue the A332 has better economics than the 764ER no matter what route, which is a blatant lie due to the 764ER being a stretch and the A332 being a shrink. Stretches INHERENTLY have a lower CASM than shrinks. On routes that do not require the A332's additional range or cargo capacity, the 764ER will be more profitable than the A332, and anyone who denies this is intentionally not telling the truth. Add in the 764ER's larger BusinessElite cabin and that further gives the 764ER an economics advantage on some routes due to the greater fare premium generated.

And I guess the reason the 332 has outsold the 764 more than 10 to 1 is of course that Airbus gave them away for free.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 85, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 21476 times:

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 83):
Unlike United, they don't see an economic benefit in being exclusive to one manufacturer.

Yet, UA still has A350s on order. Boeing will offer DL sweet deals to keep DL exclusive to them, since they cannot afford to lose them as an exclusive customer after losing several others.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 86, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 21385 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 80):
And do you have any proof that the 764ER loses money on every route it flies? The 764ER is considered DL's second most efficient widebody after the A333, and beats the A332 in efficiency on most routes that it flies. The 764ER was tailored to the specifications of DL and CO, and is a highly profitable aircraft for both airlines. The 764ER is in fact placed on the more profitable routes due to its larger BusinessElite cabin while the A332 is generally placed on more leisure-oriented routes.

You have made these arguments numerous times, and the fallacy of your arguments have been explained to you a number of times. But here goes once more:

1. Does the 764 have to lose money to be less attractive than an alternative? It could just make less money. You keep talking of CASM, forgetting it takes revenue capacity too to complete the equation.

2. Again you are talking of CASM alone when you tak of efficiency, and not revenue or RASM potential.

3. Sure it was tailored, but with a very specific (and limited) medium haul mission for specific routes, domestic and Hawaii initially, and then reconfigured for certain int'l markets with a specific mix of passengers.

4. The size of the BE cabin is not determined by the airframe, it is determined by the airline. Given the 764's lower range and lower cargo capacity, it makes sense to deploy it on select high-premium routes where the seat and pax count is lower and therefore payload is lower, so range can be extended and more space left in belly for cargo as well.

Sankaps.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19410 posts, RR: 58
Reply 87, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 21018 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 11):
However, the 744 replacement is likely higher priority than the 763ER replacement, since the oldest 744 is older than the oldest 763ER, as well as the fact that the 763ER has a higher cycle limit than the 744.

I doubt they will "replace" the 744. I think they will buy smaller aircraft that can fly similar missions. Actually, the A330 can replace the 744 on a lot of missions. It would require a capacity donwgrade, but more frequency.


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 88, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 20961 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 87):
Actually, the A330 can replace the 744 on a lot of missions. It would require a capacity donwgrade, but more frequency.

And in fact that is exactly what the A330 has already done once already -- replaced the 747 classic on TPAC and intra-Asia routes.


User currently offlineTriple7Lr From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 20925 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 86):
4. The size of the BE cabin is not determined by the airframe, it is determined by the airline. Given the 764's lower range and lower cargo capacity, it makes sense to deploy it on select high-premium routes where the seat and pax count is lower and therefore payload is lower, so range can be extended and more space left in belly for cargo as well.

     

They have a role or they would be replaced. The biggest problem is the limited amount of cargo they can carry.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8406 posts, RR: 2
Reply 90, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 20918 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 86):
Again you are talking of CASM

Yes and by the way. 764ER is not a cheap airplane. The above analysis forgets that Delta's widebodies are well depreciated.

764s new from Boeing can't compete with Delta's existing fleet CASM. It would have the worst CASM of their fleet. Most likely worse than their 763ERs.

This is why 764s do not sell.


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 91, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days ago) and read 20709 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 90):
764s new from Boeing can't compete with Delta's existing fleet CASM. It would have the worst CASM of their fleet. Most likely worse than their 763ERs.

I think perhaps the comparison was being made to operating CASM, not including aircraft cost.


User currently offlineDUSint From Germany, joined Apr 2013, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days ago) and read 20017 times:

Quoting bkflyguy (Reply 76):
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 62):
Some poster think that an A330 order means A332. I would be surprised to see A332s ordered, but expect A333 which deliver more seats and cargo space for basically free.

Exactly. RA just said in an interview this week that "stretched" aircraft have better economics. I suspect that they need the additional frames to expand in SEA and also to grow Asia flying from JFK. Not that these frames would be used, but might allow them to move around the fleet to have to have the right aircraft on each route.

Right. This is what I tried to suggest here:

Quoting DUSint (Reply 48):
...and then, there is also the A330-300... Which wasn't mentioned in this thread. Why? Would it not be the logical choice for Delta, esp. when you consider the progress in MTOW and range which has made the 333 nearly as capable as the 343 (with much lower operating costs)?


User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 1992 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days ago) and read 19859 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 65):

Funny you phrase it that way. I do believe the IAG folks are prepared to decommission a few. But I have no source and don't want to further feed the rumor mill

I was just thinking the other night with the economic meltdown going on in Europe some of the airlines may be finding the A321 might not be the mid haul leisure route superstar it once was and would be ready to dump a few.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 68):
I wonder if maybe they'll pick up a few from US like they got the 717s from FL?

I am not sure if you mean the 330's or the 321's. I think with the merger the 330s will take on an even more important role as I believe it will be the backbone of the TATL flleet for flights out of PHL, JFK, CLT and ORD. If you mean the A321s I could see US wanting to dump a few of them as the right size and renew the fleet during the merger but at the same time I can't image it would want to see them them only to find those planes doing ATL-Florida as competition rather than CLT-Florida like they are doing right now.


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 94, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 19738 times:

Flighty -- it depends on what you are measuring for. For fleet decisions, of course aircraft acqusition / ownership costs are included. But once the aircraft are on the property, the fixed-cost component of aircraft ownerships costs are considered sunk costs, and aircraft performance and mission-capability / contribution are based on revenue potential, minust the operating costs plus variable component of ownership costs (eg the portion of maintenance and insurance that are dependent on hours flown).

CASM therefore can be measured and used both ways for decision making, and it is important to note and understand which definition is being used.

[Edited 2013-05-26 14:07:49 by SA7700]

User currently offlinepeachair From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 365 posts, RR: 3
Reply 95, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 19086 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 18):
They just fitted the test cell(s) in atlanta for Trent 800 and GE90 runs. That probably means just as much as someone getting qualified on an aircraft type. Nearly nothing.
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 24):
Lol I was at the test cell last week while they were doing the work.

That is NOT correct. The work done in the test cells in May has nothing to do with the Trents or GE90 engines. If you were there, you would have been told what the modifications to Test Cell 3 were all about and it has nothing to do with those two engines.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4125 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 18669 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 4):
An RFP is out for a widebody order. Something will be announced soon.

I just hope that they put in new interiors and not the current ones...

Quoting LV (Reply 95):
I was just thinking the other night with the economic meltdown going on in Europe some of the airlines may be finding the A321 might not be the mid haul leisure route superstar it once was and would be ready to dump a few.

I doubt that any European airline would be that short sighted knowing that when the economy gets better they will need the aircraft. DL may lease some but I doubt that this would be a short term solution for either parties and would most likely be open to a more permanent plan.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 97, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 18408 times:

Growth in aircraft size is needed for the routes to South America, ATL-LIM as example has gone from B763 to A333. 10 more A333 would fit exactly into this role.

User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12393 posts, RR: 46
Reply 98, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 17213 times:
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Quoting msp747 (Reply 53):
I would put my money on the new order having the same engines. Why introduce a new type of engine for only 10 planes?

It really doesn't matter that much with 'power by the hour' type agreements. Several other non-RR A330 operators have selected RR for top-up orders.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineTriple7Lr From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16691 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 1):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):

You guys are right DL doesn't on the gates on E concourse. I went over to A & B Concourse today and guess what.......they have freshly painted A321 lines as well. A&B are DL owned.       


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6411 posts, RR: 17
Reply 100, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16197 times:

Quoting N821NW (Reply 105):
b) IF the Boeing B767-400ER was SO GREAT could you please explain to me why: 1. Only ONLY 2 (TWO) airlines ever ordered it

I actually did a thread about AA and UA back in 2003
Why Didn't AA Or UA Order 767-400? (by 727LOVER Aug 20 2003 in Civil Aviation)


AFAIK, DL still has options on the 767-400ER

[Edited 2013-05-26 15:51:02]


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 101, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16228 times:

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 103):
So the benefits of this superior CASM are obviously outweighed by the economics of the majority of the actual routes the 764ER and A332 compete on.

What many fail to accept is that there are several routes in DL's system where the 764ER is more appropriate than the A332. The A332 wouldn't provide any economic benefits over the 764ER on routes that don't need the extra range or cargo capacity.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 102, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 16094 times:

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 102):
they have freshly painted A321 lines as well. A&B are DL owned.

Now that is an interesting twist....so looking at the economics of an A321 vs a B739ER where are routes that DL flies where a A321 would outperform?



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1066 posts, RR: 3
Reply 103, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 15924 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting sankaps (Reply 57):
Again, I am not aware of any time where DL/NW have bought in-production aircraft second-hand, even if depreciated.

Northwest Airlines bought five passenger 747s used when they were still in production. Two were 747-135s from National Airlines. National quit flying them when their pilots demanded too high a wage scale to fly them during a strike. National finally settled and never flew the aircraft again. They were sold to Northwest and Boeing did required changes and painted them for Northwest. Three were 747-227s that Braniff had ordered. Two had sat in Wichita, Kansas and one had been flown by Peoples Express. Boeing again did the mods and painted them for Northwest Airlines
Northwest also bought one 747-2J9F from Boeing that the United States government stopped from being delivered to Iran due to they radical behavior including seizing the US Embassy. AeroWesty made the following statement below.
  

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 64):

Quoting sankaps (Reply 60):
Any such instances for NW before they merged with Delta?

I'll bet ya there's some story behind this one: See photo in posting 62.

Boeing code is for the Iranian Air Force. This freighter was built in 1979, probably not taken up due to the revolution. So it could be more of a white tail than used.


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 104, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 15858 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 62):
expect A333 which deliver more seats and cargo space for basically free.

But not the range.

Quoting N821NW (Reply 105):
That nobody really listens to us about these planes.

Not true...I do.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24865 posts, RR: 22
Reply 105, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 15848 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 77):
Add in the 764ER's larger BusinessElite cabin and that further gives the 764ER an economics advantage on some routes due to the greater fare premium generated.

The size of a premium class cabin is entirely up to the airline. Didn't CO operate some 764s with a smaller J cabin on certain routes?


User currently offlinesxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 106, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 15693 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 85):
Boeing will offer DL sweet deals to keep DL exclusive to them, since they cannot afford to lose them as an exclusive customer after losing several others.

Delta said they won't be exclusive to Boeing or to Airbus. You should give up on this fallacy.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 107, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 15652 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 113):
Didn't CO operate some 764s with a smaller J cabin on certain routes?

They did....4 of them to be exact. They are all about to be or have been converted to the standard UA configuration at this point however.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 114):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 85):
Boeing will offer DL sweet deals to keep DL exclusive to them, since they cannot afford to lose them as an exclusive customer after losing several others.

Delta said they won't be exclusive to Boeing or to Airbus. You should give up on this fallacy.

I don't think any airline in their right mind would claim to be exclusive to any manufacturer....Boeing or Airbus are not simply giving discounts to airlines because they can...it's because they know airlines have a choice. Even WN and AS have looked at Airbus and OEMs.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3740 posts, RR: 12
Reply 108, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 15586 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 47):
A332 is a better aircraft in just about all categories.

It may be. But keep in mind that Delta would still not be flying the A330 if they didn't merge with Northwest. Maybe they would look at it now but I think they would equally consider adding more 764ERs new from Boeing because they can be delivered sooner and Boeing would offer them a sweet deal. Nobody wants them, not even United, so there is no order to be filled before Delta gets them.

Now it is true they are more likely to add more A330s because they already have the experience of flying it because of the merger with Northwest, but I'm almost sure they would still choose the 764ER if there was no merger with Northwest. No offense to Airbus fans, that's personally what I think.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineN821NW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 109, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 15527 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 116):
But keep in mind that Delta would still not be flying the A330 if they didn't merge with Northwest. Maybe they would look at it now but I think they would equally consider adding more 764ERs new from Boeing because they can be delivered sooner and Boeing would offer them a sweet deal.

Could you prove to us that Boeing can deliver the B764ER's faster then Airbus can deliver its A332's? From what I know Boeing is decreasing the B767 production where as Airbus is increasing its A330 production...


User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3740 posts, RR: 12
Reply 110, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 15153 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting N821NW (Reply 117):
Could you prove to us that Boeing can deliver the B764ER's faster then Airbus can deliver its A332's? From what I know Boeing is decreasing the B767 production where as Airbus is increasing its A330 production...

It depends on how quickly Delta will decide to order 764ERs from Boeing, I doubt it will happen in reality I just imagine a scenario. According to Airbus website, they still have over 250 A330s to deliver. I haven't checked Boeing's website but we know for sure they have much fewer than 250 767s waiting to be delivered so even if Airbus increases A330 production whilst Boeing decreases 767 production, a 764ER could be delivered sooner if it is ordered now.



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4191 posts, RR: 37
Reply 111, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 15103 times:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/D...1/history/20130526/0315Z/WSSS/KATL


This should settle questions on the 767-400ER vs. the A330-200.

I should add that I've flown Boeing, Airbus, Douglas, and Canadair aircraft. I love them all.

[Edited 2013-05-26 20:18:53]


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 112, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 15065 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 118):
I haven't checked Boeing's website but we know for sure they have much fewer than 250 767s waiting to be delivered so even if Airbus increases A330 production whilst Boeing decreases 767 production, a 764ER could be delivered sooner if it is ordered now.

~60 orders are outstanding for the 767 at this point....most of them freighters.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 113, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 15011 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 77):
Yet, Airbus fans continue to argue the A332 has better economics than the 764ER no matter what route, which is a blatant lie due to the 764ER being a stretch and the A332 being a shrink. Stretches INHERENTLY have a lower CASM than shrinks. On routes that do not require the A332's additional range or cargo capacity, the 764ER will be more profitable than the A332, and anyone who denies this is intentionally not telling the truth. Add in the 764ER's larger BusinessElite cabin and that further gives the 764ER an economics advantage on some routes due to the greater fare premium generated.

Which would explain why Airbus have sold 576 A330-200s and Boeing have sold ... er, 38 767-400ERs.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 80):
And do you have any proof that the 764ER loses money on every route it flies?

I don't believe anyone has suggested that, have they?  
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 85):
Boeing will offer DL sweet deals to keep DL exclusive to them, since they cannot afford to lose them as an exclusive customer after losing several others.

You've made this point over and over again but it seems a bit odd to me. Are you suggesting that DL would like to order Airbus and Boeing can only stop them by quoting silly prices?


User currently offlineaircal62 From United States of America, joined May 2011, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 14642 times:
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Wasn't the 767-400 designed specifically for Delta and Continental? It is an aircraft that at least Delta likes, but I cannot see them ordering more of them. From what I hear, Delta really likes the A330 so ordering more of them does make sense to me. While I keep hearing about Delta on the verge of getting the 777W, I do not see Delta actually getting them as the cost is so high at this time. If ordering and delivery are over 18 months away, I can see Delta jumping onto the 787-9, but again I am not sure that this fits into Delta's current fleet planning. I do hear some interesting rumors about a multi aircraft type order and lease arrangement which if true would surprise many an a-netter. Time will tell if the airbus rumors are true, or if other rumors are true or very likely none of the above

User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12393 posts, RR: 46
Reply 115, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 14192 times:
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Quoting American 767 (Reply 118):
It depends on how quickly Delta will decide to order 764ERs from Boeing
When DL order is not relevant.   

Quoting American 767 (Reply 118):
so even if Airbus increases A330 production whilst Boeing decreases 767 production, a 764ER could be delivered sooner if it is ordered now.

I'm afraid you have this completely wrong!   

To the end of April, Airbus had a backlog of 269 A330s and Boeing 63 767s. However, the key is not how large, or small, the backlog is, it's about how quickly they're being delivered. Through April this year Airbus has delivered 39 A330s while Boeing has delivered just five 767s.

I'll leave you to do the maths as to which could be delivered to DL more quickly.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 116, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 14023 times:

Quoting aircal62 (Reply 114):
Wasn't the 767-400 designed specifically for Delta and Continental?

Some like to believe this. Others think it's just a myth to cover the disappointing sales of the model.

Bear in mind that ILFC ordered the 767-400ER but later cancelled them as they couldn't place them. Says it all, really.

"ILFC selected CF6-80C2 engines to power two Boeing 747-400s, five Boeing 767-400ERS, and three Boeing 767-300ERs. This is ILFC's first order for the new 767-400ER, a stretched version of the 767-300ER. The 767-400ER was launched in 1996 with the CF6-80C2, which has won 100 percent of the orders for this aircraft."

http://www.geaviation.com/press/cf6/cf6_19980107.html

Kenya Airways also ordered the 767-400ER but never took them.

Boeing 767-400ER Order From Kenya Airways! (by Jet Setter Mar 9 2000 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1870 posts, RR: 4
Reply 117, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13954 times:

Quoting aircal62 (Reply 114):
Wasn't the 767-400 designed specifically for Delta and Continental?

No. This is one of the most famous a.net myths, populated by Boeing cheerleaders.

Boeing designed 767-400 to compete with A330-200. Boeing took world tour with it, similar to the one with 777-300ER, 777-200LR and 787-8.

767-400 lost the majority of RFPs against A330-200, mainly due to its inferior range and payload capability. Only DL and CO ended up buying it, as a result of their "gentleman's agreement" with Boeing at the time.

[Edited 2013-05-27 00:25:45]


STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9977 posts, RR: 96
Reply 118, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13969 times:
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Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 104):
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 62):expect A333 which deliver more seats and cargo space for basically free.
But not the range

I wouldn't be so sure if we're talking new-build.

The 242t version today has a nominal range of 6 100 Nm with 295 pax, and can have the centre wing tank, as found on the A330-200 activated
What's the nominal range of a 767-400ER?
5 650NM with 245 pax?

Quoting American 767 (Reply 108):
keep in mind that Delta would still not be flying the A330 if they didn't merge with Northwest. Maybe they would look at it now but I think they would equally consider adding more 764ERs new from Boeing because they can be delivered sooner and Boeing would offer them a sweet deal. Nobody wants them, not even United, so there is no order to be filled before Delta gets them

Seems to be question and answer in the same sentence to me.
Delta ARE flying the A330 however they got them, and seem to like them a lot.
To quote; "Nobody wants them (767-400ER), not even United, so there is no order to be filled"

Quoting United1 (Reply 112):
60 orders are outstanding for the 767 at this point....most of them freighters.

At a build rate of 2 per month that's 2.5 years worth.
Airbus have 269 A330's in backlog with output coming up to 10 per month

Quoting aircal62 (Reply 114):
From what I hear, Delta really likes the A330 so ordering more of them does make sense to me

Heresy! You can't post this on a Delta 767-400ER thread. Oh. Wait a minute...  
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 101):
What many fail to accept is that there are several routes in DL's system where the 764ER is more appropriate than the A332.

Which begs the question "how many routes are there DL's system where the A332 is more appropriate.

It also begs the question "why are we even having this conversation" I guess, as the OP nowhere specifies which A330 variant is being considered. The 764 is conspicuous by its absence

Rgds


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 119, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13870 times:

Quoting United1 (Reply 107):

I don't think any airline in their right mind would claim to be exclusive to any manufacturer

Yes not too long ago (late 1990s or early 2000s, I think it was), AA, CO, and DL all announced exclusive sourcing agreements with Boeing. Not one of those agreements still stand today, since it simply mande no strategic or financial sense. All of the CEOs who made those agreements have since moved on.


User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12393 posts, RR: 46
Reply 120, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13625 times:
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Quoting astuteman (Reply 118):
It also begs the question "why are we even having this conversation" I guess

It seems to be for two main reasons - some can't accept that the A330 is a fine plane (indeed, IMHO, the A333 is something far better than just 'fine') and/or that DL would ever consider buying a new Airbus plane. Oh well.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineN821NW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 121, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 13354 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 120):
(indeed, IMHO, the A333 is something far better than just 'fine')

Could not agree more my friend!      


User currently offlineVinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 13327 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 101):
What many fail to accept is that there are several routes in DL's system where the 764ER is more appropriate than the A332. The A332 wouldn't provide any economic benefits over the 764ER on routes that don't need the extra range or cargo capacity.

I've read the thread with great interest and no-one fails to accept that. What people seem to be saying if my understanding is correct is that providing A33X can be found cheaply enough, A33X seem to be a good fit for Delta. No-one I believe ever said that that the 764 was a worthless aircraft...

I'd be pretty interested to see which A33X and and A321 are on the market. And whether Delta would contemplate buying new built aircrafts?


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 123, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 13177 times:

Quoting Vinniewinnie (Reply 122):
And whether Delta would contemplate buying new built aircrafts?

My assumption has always been that these will be new builds.

If they are looking at second hand A330s, there are a few out there.

If they want to stay with PW, there are two or three low-mileage ex-Kingfisher A332s available but otherwise only early-build A333s.


User currently offlineN821NW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 124, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12852 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 123):
If they want to stay with PW, there are two or three low-mileage ex-Kingfisher A332s available but otherwise only early-build A333s.

Not sure many airlines would buy/lease ex-Kingfisher airplanes after I have read what they have done to those poor birds...and I'm not saying this meanly because I just loved Kingfisher and I find it very sad that they did not survive.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 125, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12837 times:

Quoting N821NW (Reply 124):
Not sure many airlines would buy/lease ex-Kingfisher airplanes

I agree. Otherwise, it's new builds or lease some used A330s with RR or GE - but they might struggle to find ten or so all of equal ability and with similar specifications.

Buy new, I'd say.


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6411 posts, RR: 17
Reply 126, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12741 times:

Quoting N821NW (Reply 124):
Not sure many airlines would buy/lease ex-Kingfisher airplanes after I have read what they have done to those poor birds

Can you please elaborate?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 20):
FYI, if UA unloads its 764ER fleet, DL will pick them up in a flash.

or.....or.....or.....

DL could dump their 764.....and UA could pick THOSE up....  



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlinefanoftristars From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1604 posts, RR: 5
Reply 127, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12731 times:

Wouldn't it be funny with all the complaining Richard Anderson does about the ex-im bank financing if Delta went ahead and took favorable European financing on some new A-330s? The A-330 is an excellent plane and as much as I'd rather see more 764s built, this A-330 order makes sense. I also would love to see some A-321s as long as DL configures it like the 739 with AVOD, Internet and comfy seats. What would an A321 look like in DL config? 20F, 24Y+, 138Y? Or can you fit 24F between door 1 and 2?


"FLY DELTA JETS"
User currently offlineN821NW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 128, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12584 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 126):
Can you please elaborate?

What airline would want to take the risk of buying/leasing a airplane that could have improper paper work? If you know airline that does please tell us.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 126):
DL could dump their 764.....and UA could pick THOSE up...   

Even if that would be nice it will never happen, DL just love flying the planes straight to the desert with no middle airline.

Quoting fanoftristars (Reply 127):
I also would love to see some A-321s as long as DL configures it like the 739 with AVOD, Internet and comfy seats.

You do know that all of DL's mainline and there E-175 fleet has GoGo wifi installed already right?


User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 438 posts, RR: 11
Reply 129, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12602 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 1):
The A321 rumor has been going on for years. DL has already ordered the 739ER, and just because more fleet types were added with the NW merger doesn't mean DL must further complicate its fleet by adding more and more types.

As has already been pointed out, the A321 is just a sub-type of the A320 family, of which Delta already have more than 100.
Technically, there is less difference between the A321 and the existing A32S in their fleet than between their 767-300ERs and 767-400ERs.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Doubt it. As they did last time with the 739ER, Boeing will provide DL a really sweet deal that Airbus will be unable to match. Boeing cannot afford to lose DL, considering that they have already lost several loyal customers to Airbus

The DL of today is not an exclusive Boeing customer. They have a fleet of almost 130 Airbus planes. They do consider themselves a US launch customer of the A330 (Anderson said as much in an interview last week) so they clearly see their own history as the combined history of DL and NW.
If Boeing really do hang onto the notion that it makes sense to have some large customers as exclusive A or B customers I think they should change that mindset quite quickly. Never mind that they'll obviously prefer to win a tender to losing it I do think (and hope) that they accept that they probably cannot win every single tender at a given airline, irrespective of the size of that airline's existing Boeing fleet.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Fact is, A321s don't make any sense since DL has already ordered the 739ER, thus adding a redundant type

And yet, there are precedents of airlines ordering two sub-types that appear to be competing, but that actually allow them to tailor their fleet to their route structure exactly.
Particularly with A32S in the fleet already, I would by no means rule out a DL A321 order if these give them terms and capabilities that enable DL to serve markets that the 737-900ER cannot server, or serves less efficiently.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
However, if DL requires A330-sized aircraft, then the A330 is the obvious choice. The 787 is much more expensive and the wait for it is much longer.

  
In fact, Anderson recently said this:

Quote:
"We operate 33 A330s and were a launch customer in the U.S.," Delta's Anderson said. He added that should Boeing hope that its stretched 787 will take sales from the A330, "its prices have to come way down."

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...delta-planes-idUSL2N0E31GI20130522
Which shows you DL already consider themselves Airbus customers and seem furthermore quite happy with their A330s.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 11):
Inheriting A32x aircraft from NW was one thing, however, it doesn't mean it makes any sense that DL should further complicate its fleet. In the long run, fleet simplification WILL occur.

Not sure how adding A321 is any more complicated than adding 767-400ER and 772LR was or 77W would be. In fact, it's probably vastly less complicated.
Funny thing, too, how you consider two things a certainty:
* Fleet simplification (given DL's fleet size requirements particularly in the narrowbody segment, I wouldn't consider this a given)
* The "winner" of that fleet simplification, deducted simply from DL's 737-900ER order.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Delta has a massive 757-200 fleet and I expect there are missions where the A321-200 makes a better replacement than the 737-900ER so a small order of 30 doesn't seem ridiculous.

  

Quoting sankaps (Reply 66):
History seems to suggest otherwise. All of the airlines that had these supposedly highly advantageuos sole-sourcing agreements (Delta, American, Continental, and for all practical purposes JAL and ANA) have now changed or are in the process of changing course.

  
True, and I never could see any point in large airlines only using a single supplier, be it A or B. For relatively small airlines this may make sense, as well as for some LCCs, but not for airlines that cover a huge spectrum of routes, loads and markets.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 67):
However, DL wouldn't have signed it if it provided them no benefit; DL weighed all options when signing it. Boeing didn't force DL to sign the agreement as what most Airbus fans want us to believe.

Here's a comparison: Nobody forced LH or VS to sign for A340-600 (and they didn't even have exclusivity agreements with Airbus, either). The A340-600 probably works just fine for both airlines (LH topped up their orders a few times, too). But there is no doubt with anybody here - nore even with John Leahy himself - that the 777-300ER is the vastly more capable airplane for most missions, and that an RFP between the A340-600 and 77W today would likely have a different outcome. So much so that Airbus formally stopped offering the A340 series two years ago.
I do not believe that DL think the 767-400ER is really more capable than the A330, any more than I would believe LH claiming that the A340-600 is more capable than the 77W.
What's different now, though, is that DL actually has 33 A330s, so it's very easy indeed for them to add a few.
Add to that that if they were to sell even their existing 767-400ERs today or in five years time, they'd have trouble finding takers - why would they add more of an oddball type that's now late in its lifecycle and won't have much resale value?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 74):
In fact, the list price of the A332 is higher than the 788. DL wouldn't be saving any money by ordering more A332s.

Never mind that list prices don't mean anything - DL also publicly stated that in order for DL to consider the 787-10 over the A330-300, the 787's price would have to come way down. (See interview quote further up. Note he didn't say anything about list prices, so it's fair to assume he's talking about the prices he's seen.)

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 80):
And do you have any proof that the 764ER loses money on every route it flies?

Nobody said it does.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 80):
The 764ER was tailored to the specifications of DL and CO

It was not. This notion was quite thoroughly rebunked by myself and others in this thread and elsewhere (including this very thread), but you still choose to hang on to it.
Boeing heavily marketed the plane on a world tour and was in discussions particularly with European charter operators like Britannia and Condor about the ERX variant even before the launch orders were booked. They also put vastly more technical effort into it than CO and DL ever requested, partly at the request of prospective customers that eventually did not end up buying the plane.

Quoting PM (Reply 116):
Kenya Airways also ordered the 767-400ER but never took them.
Boeing 767-400ER Order From Kenya Airways! (by Jet Setter Mar 9 2000 in Civil Aviation)

Kenya couldn't take them because Boeing pulled the plug on the ERX variant they had ordered. Understandable given that Kenya Airways were the only customer, for only 3 of the type.


In short - I think that, although a shock to some B fans, 10 A330 and 30 A321 for DL seems quite a realistic and reasonable proposition, both in terms of types and numbers involved. Which doesn't mean it's definitely going to happen, but if it doesn't happen I don't think I've read the (likely) reasons for that in any of the posts of this thread so far.



Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 51
Reply 130, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12546 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 73):
List prices mean nothing. Anyone who has had any involvement with aircraft purchasing will tell you that is rule #1.

I already said that.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 70):
Now we all know airlines, particularly big airlines like DL don't pay full list prices, they can discounts and sometimes huge discounts.
Quoting sankaps (Reply 75):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 74):In fact, the list price of the A332 is higher than the 788. DL wouldn't be saving any money by ordering more A332s.With respect, you seem to not have much real-world knowledge of aircraft contracts and pricing. List prices mean nothing.

No sir, you are so wrong. List prices of new build airplanes from the OEMs is ALWAYS the starting point for the negotiations to arrive at a contract price.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 70):
The 2012 list prices for Boeing is;B-737-900ER = $94.6MB-767-400ER = $200.8MB-777-300ER = $315.0MB-787-8 = $206.8MB-787-9 = $243.6MB-787-10 = No list prices publicly released.http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/prices/index.pageThe list prices for Airbus is;A-321 = $107.3MA-330-200 = $216.1MA-330-300 = $239.4MA-350-800 = $254.3MA-350-1000 = $332.1Mhttp://www.airbus.com/presscentre/co...?eID=dam_frontend_push&docID=14849

From these prices, the airlines work on actual prices for the contract, not individual airplanes prices within the contract (unless the contract is only for one airplane).


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6411 posts, RR: 17
Reply 131, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12472 times:

Quoting N821NW (Reply 128):
What airline would want to take the risk of buying/leasing a airplane that could have improper paper work? If you know airline that does please tell us.

Sorry,.....I haven't kept up with As The Kingfisher Turns



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineClipper136 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 316 posts, RR: 1
Reply 132, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12367 times:

There are many here who think that A321 is not needed in DLs fleet because of the B739ER order.
But maybe a few to compete directly with AA on the transcons.
Have to admit that the new AA Transcon product is pretty sweet, and the A321 offers 2 things that the B739ER does not.

Higher Payload capability (for heavier hard product seats)
2nd door forward of the wing (separating premium pax like 757)


     


User currently offlineN821NW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 133, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12230 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 131):
Sorry,.....I haven't kept up with As The Kingfisher Turns

Believe me I cried for a week or two when I learned that my favorite airline in India had "destroyed" innocent Airbuses...        

Quoting Clipper136 (Reply 132):
There are many here who think that A321 is not needed in DLs fleet because of the B739ER order.
But maybe a few to compete directly with AA on the transcons.
Have to admit that the new AA Transcon product is pretty sweet, and the A321 offers 2 things that the B739ER does not.

Higher Payload capability (for heavier hard product seats)
2nd door forward of the wing (separating premium pax like 757)


     

Sorry but in esthetics alone first place goes to the Boeing B757-200, second place goes to the Airbus A321, third place goes to the Boeing B757-300 and fourth place goes to the Boeing B737-900ER. We also know that airlines make A LOT of money on the cargo that they carry, so since the Airbus A321 has a higher cargo capacity then the Boeing B737-900ER then for some of DL's routes it would be a better mach. As my second favorite Richard said that one of the reasons that Delta Air Lines was doing so good was because that with there current fleet (57 Airbus A319's (    ), 69 Airbus A320's (    ), 11 Airbus A330-200's (    ), 21 Airbus A330-300's (    ), 10 Boeing B737-700's, 73 Boeing B737-800's, 100 (is this correct???) Boeing B737-900ER's, 16 Boeing B747-400's, 151 Boeing B757-200's, 16 Boeing B757-300's, 71 Boeing B767-300's, 21 Boeing B767-400ER's, 18 Boeing B777-200's, 17 Douglas DC-9-50's (soon to be replaced with Boeing B717-200's), 117 McDonnell-Douglas MD-88's (    ) and 51 McDonnell-Douglas MD-90's (    ) they can custom tailor each route with the perfect airplane, so even if on some routes the Airbus A321 and Boeing B737-900ER do compete on others the Airbus A321 is a better fit like on some the Boeing B737-900ER is better. Look at TK they have Airbus A321's (31+1 on order) and Boeing B737-900ER's (10) and they are doing great.


User currently offlineB777ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 548 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12143 times:

There is only one question I have a this deal seems done. Will DALPA be able to get the 739ER and the A321's pay banded in the same category as the 757 they will eventually be replacing? They are getting screwed if they make the same as the 737-700/A319 guys.

User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7989 posts, RR: 5
Reply 135, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12144 times:

DL could order the A333, but it has to be the higher gross weight variant that will allow the plane to fly from LAX to NRT, ICN and PEK with essentially a full pax/cargo load on a year-round basis.

User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 136, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11965 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
No sir, you are so wrong. List prices of new build airplanes from the OEMs is ALWAYS the starting point for the negotiations to arrive at a contract price.

I have actually negotiated new aircraft purchases for airlines. Of course the starting point (for what that's worth) is the list price, but the price eventually paid has no correlation to the list price (ie the one with the higher list price could easily have the lower actual selling or contract price).


User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 566 posts, RR: 4
Reply 137, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11777 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 24):
Lol I was at the test cell last week while they were doing the work.

Both large cells can now run up to a 115,000lbs engine. Unsure(but unlikely) if they will add this to the large cell in MSP. (Currently 70k I believe)

And on the spilt, I know it's not suppose to be spilt right now, but my understanding its not out of the possibility.

The work was for something else. Neither the Trent nor GE90 have been correlated in Delta's test cells and there are absolutely no plans to do so. There is no compelling reason for Delta to go to the trouble and expense of correlating either engine type. The engines are returned serviceable from OSR so there is no need to run them in the test cell.

Nothing is out of the realm of possibility, but as I said previously, the current expectation is not for a split.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 138, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11825 times:

Quoting B777ER (Reply 134):
There is only one question I have a this deal seems done. Will DALPA be able to get the 739ER and the A321's pay banded in the same category as the 757 they will eventually be replacing? They are getting screwed if they make the same as the 737-700/A319 guys.

No. The 739ER payscale is lower than the 757/763 payscale, but higher than the 73G/738 payscale. No such payscale has been established for the A321 at this time.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 129):
It was not. This notion was quite thoroughly rebunked by myself and others in this thread and elsewhere (including this very thread), but you still choose to hang on to it.
Boeing heavily marketed the plane on a world tour and was in discussions particularly with European charter operators like Britannia and Condor about the ERX variant even before the launch orders were booked. They also put vastly more technical effort into it than CO and DL ever requested, partly at the request of prospective customers that eventually did not end up buying the plane.

Tell that to Ed Bastian, who CONFIRMED on an Investor Day conference that the 764ER was made for them.

[Edited 2013-05-27 09:38:42]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 139, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11671 times:

Quoting anfromme (Reply 129):

The DL of today is not an exclusive Boeing customer. They have a fleet of almost 130 Airbus planes. They do consider themselves a US launch customer of the A330 (Anderson said as much in an interview last week) so they clearly see their own history as the combined history of DL and NW.

Probably a good thing that Richard doesn't write the official history of the airline. No matter how you write it DL's and NW's histories parallel each other but don't converge until the merger......just the same as Chicago & Southern, Northeast, Western & Pan Am (just an acquisition). Read any history of either airline.......DL's started in 1929 (officially) and NW's in 1926 (officially).


Anyway, I digress........NW was the US launch customer of the A330 and it was NW that ordered the Airbus a/c that are currently in DL's fleet. That, in no way means that DL would necessarily order any Airbus a/c......but they might.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineBlueshamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2864 posts, RR: 25
Reply 140, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11582 times:

For the love of God, this mythical crap regarding the virtues of the B764 has to be debunked once and for all.

Boeing approached Britannia with a proposal for it. To all intents and purposes, it was an absolute dog, so much so, Thomson group elected to soldier on ith their B763s, which over a decade on, are only now about to be replaced.

Some key Britannia staff moved over to Airtours/My Travel and again the B764 was totally overlooked in favour of the A332.

I do tire of hearing the same regurgitated nonsense on here:

"We needed a high capacity, twin aisle, medium range frame which would fit into LGA's gates; Boeing could have made the B764 for us because it ticked all those boxes"

Might sound the same, but is quite different to

"Boeing designed and made the B764 solely for us. We said 'here are our requirements. Go build us our airplane' and they did."

Some people hear and perceive only what they want to hear and perceive. The fact is, Boeing expected the B764 to be a world dominator. It wasn't; it flopped and quite spectacularly.

My money's on a joint A333 top up / A321neo combination, not because I'm pro-Airbus, but because I believe both have a place in Delta's fleet.

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 141, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11542 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 139):

Anyway, I digress........NW was the US launch customer of the A330 and it was NW that ordered the Airbus a/c that are currently in DL's fleet. That, in no way means that DL would necessarily order any Airbus a/c......but they might.

As both the CEO and the VP of Fleet Planning are from the NWA side of the merger, I think DL will absolutely be open to ordering Airbus... but as was the case at NWA, eventually the order will go to whoever's product and commercial offer produces the highest NPV for DL, no emotions in these decisions.


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6047 posts, RR: 2
Reply 142, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11430 times:

There is only one problem with this whole 321 theory. While DL is ok with the 320s, they do not like the 319. The 319 is the only aircraft in their fleet not being upgraded so that should tell you something. While they love the 330s, they prefer the 73s / mds / 71s over the airbii for narrow body.

I was told that the mds offer a significant cost advantage on most routes if flown side by side. The 319 only did better on short routes like lax las.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 143, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days ago) and read 11269 times:

Quoting Blueshamu330s (Reply 140):

And where did you get your info?? I got this, next, straight from the DL Heritage Museum website:

(referring to the -400)

"Delta was the launch customer for this final extended-range version of the 767 in 1997, continuing plans to retire its international L-1011s."



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4191 posts, RR: 37
Reply 144, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days ago) and read 11177 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 143):

There is only one problem with this whole 321 theory. While DL is ok with the 320s, they do not like the 319. The 319 is the only aircraft in their fleet not being upgraded so that should tell you something. While they love the 330s, they prefer the 73s / mds / 71s over the airbii for narrow body

Your logic is incorrect. The last time I saw RA speak, he mentioned how much he likes the economics of the 321.

[Edited 2013-05-27 11:23:51]


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlinesxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 145, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 10730 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 142):
There is only one problem with this whole 321 theory. While DL is ok with the 320s, they do not like the 319. The 319 is the only aircraft in their fleet not being upgraded so that should tell you something. While they love the 330s, they prefer the 73s / mds / 71s over the airbii for narrow body.

Delta (and most other airlines) don't like the A319 because it has horrible per-seat costs.


User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 146, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 10692 times:
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When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 147, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 10524 times:

Quoting B777ER (Reply 134):
They are getting screwed if they make the same as the 737-700/A319 guys.

I think the Delta piilot are very well paid at their current levels. They currently are at the 95 percentile of all U.S. wage earners


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2754 posts, RR: 2
Reply 148, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 10342 times:

So, when the A340 sells poorly compared to the 777, it's because the A340 is a dog, but when the 764 sells a total of 37 units, while the A332 sells 576 units (and the A333 sells 623), there's still some arcane reason why the 764 is the better aircraft of the lot? Oh, come on.


AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 149, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 10220 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 104):
But not the range.

There are not many legs in Delta's network that require more than 6000 miles range...

All of Latin America and all of Europe are fully in this range, only the few Trans Pacific connections require more.

This said, the 764 is from passenger perspective a great plane, I flew it several times FRA-ATL, much calmer than 763 or 777, the best Boeing twin I ever was on.


User currently offlineSkyTeamTriStar From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 150, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10021 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 47):

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
I am putting my money on the 77W

RA has already stated the 77W is too expensive

Why have so many airlines around the globe have gone with the 77W, instead of buying more 744's? I dont get why RA would say this...


User currently offlineBlueshamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2864 posts, RR: 25
Reply 151, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9967 times:

Mayor, I'm struggling to see where we differ in opinion.

That Delta was a launch customer is in no doubt. Few would contest that fact.

What was in dispute were some of the other fanciful mistruths which had been posted on here, but which have since been deleted, making your own and my posts victims of some welcome Mod-ing.  

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 438 posts, RR: 11
Reply 152, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10076 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 138):
Tell that to Ed Bastian, who CONFIRMED on an Investor Day conference that the 764ER was made for them.

I rather believe Boeing and their track record of public announcements, press releases and actions on this, to be honest.
They staged a heavy marketing campaign, pitched it in multiple RFPs, and had an airline advisory board consisting of more than CO and DL to help define the project before its launch.
All of this information is publicly available and verifiable, as evident in the previous thread I linked to.
Contrary to that, I could not find a single source to verify what you claim Ed Bastian said, to not even mention a source that would support any such claim by Mr Bastian even if he had made it.

As it happens, you previously wrote exactly the same thing, by the way, as far back as March 2011.
Debunking The 767-400ER High Casm Myth (by 1337Delta764 Feb 26 2011 in Tech Ops)
Then just like now you failed to substantiate that claim as well as the claim within that claim.

Quoting Blueshamu330s (Reply 140):
I do tire of hearing the same regurgitated nonsense on here:

"We needed a high capacity, twin aisle, medium range frame which would fit into LGA's gates; Boeing could have made the B764 for us because it ticked all those boxes"

Might sound the same, but is quite different to

"Boeing designed and made the B764 solely for us. We said 'here are our requirements. Go build us our airplane' and they did."

  

Quoting Blueshamu330s (Reply 140):
My money's on a joint A333 top up / A321neo combination, not because I'm pro-Airbus, but because I believe both have a place in Delta's fleet.

  

Quoting mayor (Reply 139):
Probably a good thing that Richard doesn't write the official history of the airline. No matter how you write it DL's and NW's histories parallel each other but don't converge until the merger.

That was neither his nor my point - he certainly didn't say the then-DL was a launch customer of the A330. He just said "we", by which he referred to what is currently DL, consisting of NW and DL staff, fleet and history.
But it also clearly means they currently considers themselves to be Airbus customers already, and as such will have no hesitation in ordering from both manufacturers as they see fit.
That wouldn't really be big news if there weren't so many people here who are still in denial about it.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 142):
There is only one problem with this whole 321 theory. While DL is ok with the 320s, they do not like the 319.

Even assuming this is correct, how is that relevant regarding the A321?
There are plenty of examples out there of airlines getting rid of one sub-type (or significantly reducing a sub-type's fleet size) while adding more of another sub-type from the same family...

Quoting mayor (Reply 143):
"Delta was the launch customer for this final extended-range version of the 767 in 1997, continuing plans to retire its international L-1011s."

Nobody said that DL wasn't the first customer to place an order for the 767-400ER.
But that's not the same thing as saying that Boeing only developed and built it with DL and CO as customers in mind.
Same with the 747-8i - just because LH was the launch customer, Boeing didn't purpose-built it for them.
(Dang - I might just be giving birth to the next a.net myth here, which will haunt us in 10 years' time when it's time to discuss why the 747-8i didn't do better than it did.)

Quoting UALWN (Reply 150):
So, when the A340 sells poorly compared to the 777, it's because the A340 is a dog, but when the 764 sells a total of 37 units, while the A332 sells 576 units (and the A333 sells 623), there's still some arcane reason why the 764 is the better aircraft of the lot? Oh, come on.

  
My point exactly.



Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 153, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9985 times:

Quoting anfromme (Reply 152):

Ed Bastian's statement on the 764ER was made back in either 2006 or 2007 in an Investor Day conference. If you do a search in the forums, there was even a thread about it. Ed Bastian is not a liar.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 154, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9556 times:

Quoting SkyTeamTriStar (Reply 150):
Why have so many airlines around the globe have gone with the 77W, instead of buying more 744's? I dont get why RA would say this...

Because DL does not have the same business model as other airlines. They stick to low CAPEX and accept higher (but still acceptable) operating expenses. They bought the 737-900ER when everyone was going for the MAX. It was between the A321-CEO and 737-900ER and both the NEO and MAX were out of the questions because of the millions per frame higher capital cost. They clearly state that the 787 is too expensive new (and lets be clear: it is to buy, not to operate in terms of fuel and maintenance) so a cheaper A330 is more attractive to them. And this calulation is not on a plane by plane basis. It is on the whole business. DL has calculated that the lower capital expense and higher operating expense gives them more profit.
And I don't see that different from other US airlines. AA is leasing all their new 737s and A320s because they don't have the capital to buy them up front. AA is drip feeding 77Ws into their operations and buying 1 at a time when other airlines their size buy them by the dozen. UA seems to be abstaining from buying anything unless what they have is falling into pieces.

I think DL will buy the 77W, just not today. When the 777-8/9X gains traction and Boeing is looking for customers for the last 77W slots, DL will be at the front row to order them (cheap).

The A330 and A321 fit into DLs buying pattern (as well as the 737-800/900, E-170/175/190/195, CRJ900/1000 but not the 767 as it is too far behind the efficiency curve). The C-series, MAX, NEO, 787, A350 and 777-8/9X do not. The 77W does not yet fit in the "buy" bucket but will in 2-3 years time.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 155, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9467 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 147):
I think the Delta piilot are very well paid at their current levels. They currently are at the 95 percentile of all U.S. wage earners

Again, there is already an established 739ER payscale, which will be paid between the 73G/738 and the 752/763/763. There is no established payscale for the A321 at this time, however, should one be established it probably won't be on the same payscale as the A319/A320, otherwise A32x pilots would complain that DL is giving preferential treatment to its 737 pilots (when DL and NW merged, there was a bit of controversy with having the smaller 73G paid higher than the larger A320).



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinealitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4742 posts, RR: 45
Reply 156, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9345 times:

If I was a betting man: Delta will get additional A330s. Delta will get a small subfleet of A321s.

No more 767s unless they're low-cycle and avail at a great USED price. 764ER included.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlinePEK777 From China, joined Jun 2012, 124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 157, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9281 times:

This is all very interesting, but when is Delta retiring the DC-9s?
  


User currently offlineSkyTeamTriStar From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 158, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9276 times:

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 154):

Thanks! To me, that makes sense.


User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 2937 posts, RR: 4
Reply 159, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9079 times:
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Quoting PEK777 (Reply 157):
This is all very interesting, but when is Delta retiring the DC-9s?

According to a DC-9 pilot I chatted with on Saturday, Jan/Feb.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 566 posts, RR: 4
Reply 160, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9006 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 153):
Ed Bastian's statement on the 764ER was made back in either 2006 or 2007 in an Investor Day conference. If you do a search in the forums, there was even a thread about it. Ed Bastian is not a liar.

This thread is about airplanes that Delta is actually interested in acquiring more of. Therefore, any discussion of the 764ER is irrelevant.

Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 156):

If I was a betting man: Delta will get additional A330s. Delta will get a small subfleet of A321s.

Great comment... very relevant to the topic at hand.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 161, posted (1 year 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8786 times:

Quoting anfromme (Reply 152):

Nobody said that DL wasn't the first customer to place an order for the 767-400ER.
But that's not the same thing as saying that Boeing only developed and built it with DL and CO as customers in mind.

I have no factual links to go to and verify this, but all I remember, at the time, was the rumor (pretty strong at the time) of exactly this.......that it was purpose built for DL as they had asked Boeing for something to replace the Tristars in the fleet. I have NO idea of what CO's management did or what hand they had in the matter.

I may be the only member on this particular thread that was actually working for the DL at the time, whether or not that helps my credibility.  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen