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Major Downgrade Of LH Summer Schedule To USA?  
User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 339 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16823 times:

I was taking a look at the LH schedule to some US cities this summer and noticed that most of them have been downgraded in comparison to previous years' summer services... The most noticeable are:

- Detroit (DTW) is now only served twice a week by A333... Used to be twice DAILY A333 several years back.
- Philadelphia (PHL) is also down to 2 weekly A343... Used to be daily B744 a couple of summers ago.
- Atlanta (ATL) down to 3 x A343 a week... Used to be daily A343.
- Dallas (DFW) down to 4 x A333 a week... Used to be daily A343.
- Denver (DEN) down to twice weekly B744.... Used to be daily B744 in the summer.


Other interesting drop in capacity from Frankfurt:

- New York (JFK) = served twice daily by B744 which means that the A388 has been removed from the route, and the normal 3rd daily summer rotation is not being added.

- Newark (EWR) = served by once daily B744 which means the 2nd daily summer rotation is not being added.

- Washington (IAD) = Served by B748 and A333 daily, which means the 3rd daily regular rotation is not being added.

- Boston (BOS) = served by a daily B744 and A343, downgraded from the regular 2 daily B744 services.

- Los Angeles (LAX) = served by daily B748 and twice WEEKLY B744... Previous summer seasons showed twice daily B744 services.


The only destinations that seem to show a certain level of normality are:
- Chicago (ORD): Showing twice daily B744 service.
- San Francisco (SFO): Showing the regular A388 daily service.
- Houston (IAH): Showing daily A388 service.
- Seattle (SEA): Showing the regular A333 daily service.
- Orlando (MCO): Showing 6 weekly A346s instead of the regular summer daily B744 rotation. Although this city also shows a drop in capacity it is not as dramatic as DFW, ATL, DTW, DEN, and PHL.

1) Am I getting wrong info in my searches or are these drops in capacity for real?
2) Can someone explain why such a huge drop in capacity?
3) Observation: I find it intriguing that LH serves a destination only twice weekly (PHL, DTW, and DEN)... I thought their minimum frequency to long-haul is always at least 3 times weekly?

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNavion From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1015 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16670 times:

Is MIA service unchanged?

User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3354 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16567 times:
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I don't believe IAD-FRA was ever 3x daily and I know JFK wasn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the daily MUC flight to both which runs in addition to the FRA flights with a333s?


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User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 16336 times:

Quoting Qazar (Thread starter):
was taking a look at the LH schedule to some US cities this summer and noticed that most of them have been downgraded in comparison to previous years' summer services... The most noticeable are:

- Detroit (DTW) is now only served twice a week by A333... Used to be twice DAILY A333 several years back.
- Philadelphia (PHL) is also down to 2 weekly A343... Used to be daily B744 a couple of summers ago.
- Atlanta (ATL) down to 3 x A343 a week... Used to be daily A343.
- Dallas (DFW) down to 4 x A333 a week... Used to be daily A343.
- Denver (DEN) down to twice weekly B744.... Used to be daily B744 in the summer.

Not sure where you have been looking at, but the timetable (current as of May 21, 2013) I am looking at right now at this moment shows daily flights on all those routes.


User currently offlineHOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3086 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 16312 times:
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It looks like all of those destinations will still have daily frequencies. It's just that the departure times slightly vary depending on the day of the week, so it shows up in the timetable as if it was less than a daily flight.


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User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 16284 times:

Quoting Navion (Reply 1):
Is MIA service unchanged?

LH is applying the regular downgrade of the aircraft type to B744 from A388 during the northern summer schedule. This downgrade is normal and consistant with previous years' schedules... The service returns to daily A388 in the northern hemisphere winter.



Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 2):
I don't believe IAD-FRA was ever 3x daily and I know JFK wasn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the daily MUC flight to both which runs in addition to the FRA flights with a333s?

During their peak years, in the summer, LH served JFK 3 times daily from Frankfurt, and twice daily to EWR... I believe the JFK flights were 400/401, 404/405, and the additional seasonal rotation was 490/491 (or 480/481... I can't remember, sorry!!!) ... The EWR services were 402/403 and 406/407


User currently offlinemjzair From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 16247 times:

I have flown out of the PHL airport for the last 8 years on a daily basis, and I never once saw a LH 747

User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 16245 times:

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 4):
It looks like all of those destinations will still have daily frequencies. It's just that the departure times slightly vary depending on the day of the week, so it shows up in the timetable as if it was less than a daily flight.

Really?!!! Where do you see that? I checked both the LH online timetable on their site, and the timetable on the Star Alliance site and they both gave me the info that appears in my original post!


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2376 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 16215 times:

Quoting Qazar (Reply 7):
Really?!!! Where do you see that? I checked both the LH online timetable on their site, and the timetable on the Star Alliance site and they both gave me the info that appears in my original post!

You have to go to the downloadable time table, not the online one.


User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 16173 times:

Quoting Qazar (Thread starter):
Am I getting wrong info in my searches or are these drops in capacity for real?

Looks like you are getting the wrong info.

The timetable is here -- http://www.oim.de/timetable/lh/tt_view.php?tt=en

I checked DTW and DEN and they are still daily. PHL is 6x weekly (does not operate Tue).


User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 16056 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 8):
You have to go to the downloadable time table, not the online one

Yeah, but isn't the online info "live" and reflects the more updated schedule changes... The link everyone is pointing me to is the printed timetable which would probably not show any updated changes to capacity adjustments...!!!

With regards to DTW, PHL, DEN, ATL, and DFW... I tried several dates during the summer just to make sure I was not wrong, and every time it gave me the schedule I mention in my original post!... I find it very bizarre!!!

Thanks everyone... I appreciate your help!!!

Cheers!


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7282 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15925 times:

MIA is being upgraded to an 748 when it's not the A380 if I remember correctly.


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User currently offlinewagz From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 517 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15803 times:
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Quoting mjzair (Reply 6):

I have flown out of the PHL airport for the last 8 years on a daily basis, and I never once saw a LH 747

Several years ago for two summers LH did run a B744 to PHL 4x weekly. The other 3x a week was the A343.



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User currently offlineLufthansa411 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 692 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15803 times:

Quoting Qazar (Reply 5):
LH is applying the regular downgrade of the aircraft type to B744 from A388 during the northern summer schedule. This downgrade is normal and consistant with previous years' schedules... The service returns to daily A388 in the northern hemisphere winter.

That is not correct- starting this month 2x weekly FRA-MIA-FRA will be flown with the 748 iso the 747.

Quoting Qazar (Reply 5):
During their peak years, in the summer, LH served JFK 3 times daily from Frankfurt, and twice daily to EWR... I believe the JFK flights were 400/401, 404/405, and the additional seasonal rotation was 490/491 (or 480/481... I can't remember, sorry!!!) ... The EWR services were 402/403 and 406/407

The FRA-JFK rotation used to be 3x daily, 400/401, 404/405, and 406/407. At EWR there were flight numbers 402/403 and 484/485. However 406/407 have not operated since 2008 around the time A+ was developed between UA and LH.

As for the recent capacity reductions- I have heard that the US/EU were asking questions about the overall A++ marketshare from EWR/JFK and so to "not make it an issue" LH dropped the second daily EWR flight and this year did not bring the A380 back to JFK. Wise move in my opinion since every time I arrived at JFK T1 between 12:00-15:00 there seemed to be way to many people- to the point where sometimes we sat on the a/c at the gate for an hour at the request of CBP and T1 waiting for the customs lines to die down.



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User currently offlinedalca From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 536 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15777 times:

LH did indeed fly twice daily to DTW for a short period but this was discontinued about 5 years ago.
Concerning JFK, in the 8 years working for LH Cargo I have never seen a 3rd daily flight so that is quite some time ago.
EWR was also served double daily till 3 years ago and I am sure UA kind of picked up this route.

For all the other flights I can confim they are daily except for PHL, no day 2 flight.



Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2376 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 15541 times:

Quoting Qazar (Reply 10):
Yeah, but isn't the online info "live" and reflects the more updated schedule changes... The link everyone is pointing me to is the printed timetable which would probably not show any updated changes to capacity adjustments...!!!

But you have to be careful- if it operates at slightly different times on different days then it may imply that the frequency is lower than reality. Also occasionally the same flight number isn't used every day. Back when LOT had 1 daily flight to JFK they had two different flight numbers because some days the flight operated several hours later than others (I do not know if that is still the case after they left EWR and consolidated their NYC flights in JFK).


User currently offlinedtwlax From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 821 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 15303 times:

Quoting Qazar (Thread starter):
I was taking a look at the LH schedule to some US cities this summer and noticed that most of them have been downgraded in comparison to previous years' summer services... The most noticeable are:

- Detroit (DTW) is now only served twice a week by A333... Used to be twice DAILY A333 several years back.

I do not know where you saw that but there is no change to the DTW schedule for this summer.
The twice daily was only for a short time if I am correct, but mostly it has always been daily A333 to DTW for quite some time now.

Here is the proof from LH's summer 2013 schedule


Honestly, I do not see LH dropping DTW to anything short of daily given the auto industry connections.


User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 15022 times:

Quoting Qazar (Reply 10):

Yeah, but isn't the online info "live" and reflects the more updated schedule changes... The link everyone is pointing me to is the printed timetable which would probably not show any updated changes to capacity adjustments...!!!

There is no "printed" timetable, it just looks like the old printed timetable. It is an regularly updated PDF timetable. The current version of what you regard as the "printed" timetable was published last tuesday (May 21, 2013) and shows daily flights on the routes you mention.


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14876 times:
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Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 2):
I don't believe IAD-FRA was ever 3x daily

AFAIK, that third flight was to MUC -- not FRA.


User currently offlineawacsooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14875 times:

What about the DUS routes (EWR, ORD, MIA)?

User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 13195 times:

Quite honestly, I am not sure what the point of discussing is as the alleged crime was not committed....

User currently offlinedalca From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 536 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 13194 times:

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 19):
What about the DUS routes (EWR, ORD, MIA)?

EWR and ORD are still flying, the MIA flight has switched to YYZ as is done every summer



Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5374 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12720 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 17):
There is no "printed" timetable, it just looks like the old printed timetable. It is an regularly updated PDF timetable. The current version of what you regard as the "printed" timetable was published last tuesday (May 21, 2013) and shows daily flights on the routes you mention.

   For instance, DEN is still daily. Going down to 2 weekly at DEN would essentially hand the DEN-Europe market to BA and FI on a silver platter.

The online timetable used to show the weekly schedule, and LH often had flights departing/arriving at different times 1 or 2 days a week.



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User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11970 times:

Quoting Qazar (Reply 10):
Yeah, but isn't the online info "live" and reflects the more updated schedule changes... The link everyone is pointing me to is the printed timetable which would probably not show any updated changes to capacity adjustments...!!!

The current online timetable system Star uses is crappy (why they had to follow oneworld is a mystery to me). It gives wrong information about when a particular flight operates and is only good for the day yhou select. The previous system was much better, but Skyteam is the only one currently using it. The PDF is the most reliable timetable if you want to have an overview of weekly flights (as long as you used the most curent version).


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11368 times:

I did a search and could not find the cuts that have been mentioned. I even looked at the star timetable and did not find any. There are some capacity adjustments gut that is about all folks.


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User currently offlineVTORD From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8892 times:

Quoting Qazar (Thread starter):
Chicago (ORD): Showing twice daily B744 service.

ORD is 1 x 744 + 1 x 346 daily from FRA? Or are they making a change for the summer?

Plus the daily from MUC which LH website shows as 346. Wasn't that a 332?



Twitter: @vt_ord
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 26, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8792 times:

Quoting VTORD (Reply 25):
Plus the daily from MUC which LH website shows as 346. Wasn't that a 332?

Lufthansa has no A332s.


User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9272 posts, RR: 21
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8644 times:

With the talk about PHL. Will LH maintain their service if US and AA merge? I'm sure this has been discussed before...


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User currently offlineCapt.Fantastic From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 751 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7687 times:

Per the OAG, the LH schedule between DTW and FRA is DAILY throughout summer 2013.
Your info is erroneous.


User currently offlinebagoldex From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7642 times:

I don't think Boston has ever seen two daily 74's either.

User currently offlineMiami From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 2312 posts, RR: 53
Reply 30, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7555 times:
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Quoting flymia (Reply 11):

You are correct, but the 748 will only come to MIA on Thursdays and Fridays. 744 will go from Saturday-Wednesday.

LH plans to make the 748 daily to MIA. That is until the winter months when the A380 takes place.



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User currently offlineMiami From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 2312 posts, RR: 53
Reply 31, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7610 times:
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The healthiest first-class routes on LH includes Frankfurt to Kuwait, Johannesburg, Riyadh and Miami

Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...s-fleet-below-british-airways.html



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User currently offlineVenezuela747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1429 posts, RR: 5
Reply 32, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days ago) and read 7075 times:

I wonder why that was the case for DEN. I did not think the market was that bad, always thought the loads were good and they got a lot of connecting traffic from UA. I guess now they'd want to send people through ORD.
Sure BA and FI will steal some traffic, but connection-wise it'd be better to do UA to LH



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User currently offlineFreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 327 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days ago) and read 7010 times:
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Quoting Qazar (Thread starter):
Other interesting drop in capacity from Frankfurt:

- New York (JFK) = served twice daily by B744 which means that the A388 has been removed from the route, and the normal 3rd daily summer rotation is not being added.

- Newark (EWR) = served by once daily B744 which means the 2nd daily summer rotation is not being added.

Part of this has to do with this lawsuit concerning Star Alliance. LH and UA had to give up some capacity out of New York airports, as a result.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 34, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3653 times:

Quoting Qazar (Thread starter):
- Detroit (DTW) is now only served twice a week by A333... Used to be twice DAILY A333 several years back.

The drop of the twice daily A333 is understandable at DTW. I don't think it was ever twice daily, but maybe 10X weekly. Last summer LH was bringing in the A343 a lot to DTW. A big reason for LH presence at DTW was when Daimler/Benz owned Chrysler, so there were a lot of flights to Germany back then. LH had been absent from DTW since the 1980s, but finally returned in 1999 right after the Daimler/Chrysler merger. Daimler sold off Chrysler a few years back and now FIAT owns it. I am sort of surprised that Alitalia (being a Skyteam member) and FIAT being Italian doesn't fly to DTW with a daily A332 and Delta doesn't have year round FCO service to DTW

Quoting Qazar (Thread starter):
- Orlando (MCO): Showing 6 weekly A346s instead of the regular summer daily B744 rotation. Although this city also shows a drop in capacity it is not as dramatic as DFW, ATL, DTW, DEN, and PHL.

Actually at MCO late June through about October, MCO typically just sees the A333. The 744 has typically been winter and the A346 has typically been late spring.

Quoting Navion (Reply 1):
Is MIA service unchanged?

To FRA the service is slightly upgraded but DUS is gone (or at least I didn't see it when I was down there last). Last year FRA was daily 744, this year it is supposed to be 5X 744 2X 748... however 2011 they used the A380 daily.


User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 976 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3272 times:

Quoting VTORD (Reply 25):
ORD is 1 x 744 + 1 x 346 daily from FRA? Or are they making a change for the summer?

FRA-ORD 2 daily 747-400
MUC-ORD 1 daily 340-600
DUS-ORD 1 daily 340-300

Plus you have UA 2 x daily to FRA and 1 daily to MUC.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3129 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 34):
A big reason for LH presence at DTW was when Daimler/Benz owned Chrysler, so there were a lot of flights to Germany back then

There is a large automobile cluster around FRA, these flights are no way depending on Daimler/Chrysler (which had its own shuttle with A319 between STR and Pontiac) nor on GM/Opel whoch is 10 miles down the road from FRA. Indeed there are dozens of small and large firms related to automobile manufacturing which warrants the daily flights and separate MD11 freighters.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 37, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2802 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 36):

There is a large automobile cluster around FRA, these flights are no way depending on Daimler/Chrysler (which had its own shuttle with A319 between STR and Pontiac) nor on GM/Opel whoch is 10 miles down the road from FRA. Indeed there are dozens of small and large firms related to automobile manufacturing which warrants the daily flights and separate MD11 freighters.

I'm just saying LH had been absent from DTW for about 10 years from late 80s until late 90s - it wasn't there during the most recent best economy of Detroit from 1994-1998. Lufthansa started right after the Daimler Chrysler merger and now that Fiat has owned Chrysler for the past couple years they are cutting back. Back in the 80s they only had a couple weekly DC-10 or 742 flights and I think they originated at ORD or somewhere else too. The A319 PTK-STR was used more by the "bigwigs" of Daimler, the German based workers I believe. The Auburn Hills based workers for Chrysler when going there would use LH and NW.

I wasn't even aware that the LH MD-11s still flew to DTW until I saw one last March there


User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2102 posts, RR: 3
Reply 38, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2738 times:

LH will never reduce their frequencies to DEN to anything like two or three times a week. They might as well discontinue completely in that case. The competition to Europe would crush them with such a reduction in frequencies.

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 39, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

Well such flights do not depend on single companies. Like I said, there is a automobiloe cluster in the Rhein-Main area plus Mannheim / Stuttgart whch includes dozens of companies which are the backbone for such flights, plus the usualy hub traffic. Couple of years ago LH had indeed twice daily FRA-DTW, if these flights do not make money they are scaled back. DTW being a ST hub is rather a reason for scaling down.


Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
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