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PAL Set To Land In Sao Paulo Via LAX  
User currently offlinedforce1 From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 505 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 12046 times:

Philippine Airlines announced today that it is in the process of making preparations to launch flights to Sao Paulo, Brazil via Los Angeles. The President of Philippine Airlines, Ramon Ang, said that the airline is already processing regulatory approvals and that they are awaiting clearance to launch the route.

Read More Here: http://www.philippineflightnetwork.c...ppine-airlines-set-to-land-in.html

This is a surprise! While it is definitely the best choice, they had us believing they were going to route through Africa or the Middle East! But good for PAL for coming to their senses!

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinemhkansan From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 674 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 12055 times:

How does this affect AA's slot application for LAX-GRU?

User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 12010 times:

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 1):

Certainly won't help AA yields once/if they launch the route.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2158 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 11973 times:

Would the Philippines still being Cat. 2 have any effect on getting clearance to launch?

User currently offlinedforce1 From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 11946 times:

I have also read conflicting reports that PAL may be using their own aircraft to GRU OR they will be code-sharing with a South American carrier who will be operating the flight from LAX. Has anyone heard any rumours from South America? I doubt that PAL would consider a codeshare with American...

User currently onlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5400 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 11871 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 3):
Would the Philippines still being Cat. 2 have any effect on getting clearance to launch?

   Adding a new route from LAX sure sounds to me like an action not allowed under the Philippines' Cat II status. (Even as part of a code-share arrangement?)

But then this wouldn't be the first time we've heard proposals/plans for new service by PAL's current President that seem to completely ignore the country's FAA Safety status. (Or, at least, he seems to regard Cat II as some minor inconvenience that will be dealt with any day now. And so far, despite some rumors that surface every so often, there seems little evidence that the Philippines is on the verge of returning to Cat I.)

bb


User currently offlineLurveBus From Philippines, joined Mar 2007, 286 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11790 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 5):
And so far, despite some rumors that surface every so often, there seems little evidence that the Philippines is on the verge of returning to Cat I

Actually, we've seen some positive signs. For one, the ICAO has already lifted its significant safety concerns on the Philippines.

The thing they're awaiting now is the FAA's move. They have the option of adopting ICAO's findings, or conducting their own audit. We'll see what they decide.

That aside, I believe this is going to be a codeshare arrangement. I was told by people processing the approvals that PAL metal will NOT be used between LAX and GRU.

[Edited 2013-05-26 09:45:49]

User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11717 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 3):
Would the Philippines still being Cat. 2 have any effect on getting clearance to launch?

Yes, as long Cat II rating is in effect no changes in equipment and routes/destinations is permitted.

But - the intended start date is somewhere in 2014 AFAIK. So, still some time left to have FAA return the Philippines back into Cat I ...



I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently offlineryu2 From Taiwan, joined Aug 2002, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11662 times:

But both Brazil and Philippine citizens need transit visas for the US.

This service is going to be a pain compared to other routings going via countries that allow sterile transit.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3694 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11635 times:

The only way this is going to work is if AA goes out empty-handed out the current US-Brazil frequency proceeding. In the end, PAL is not going for the Philippines-Brazil traffic, but rather for the Brazil-US traffic.

User currently offlinedforce1 From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11561 times:

Quoting ryu2 (Reply 8):
But both Brazil and Philippine citizens need transit visas for the US. This service is going to be a pain compared to other routings going via countries that allow sterile transit.

I agree that PAL is going for the US-Brazil market. It could also market to Filipinos who already reside in the US who can take advantage of visa free entry into Brazil. Also, while it might be a pain, if someone in the Philippines will be able to afford to put up the cash for a ticket to Brazil, it's likely their pockets are deep enough that they have been to the US multiple times and obtaining a visa should not be a challenge. I can't imagine this flight is going to be cheap.

CATII is certainly an issue but I think Ramon Ang is truly optimistic they will get CAT1 by the end of 2014 which is the target for launch of this service. Although, I am somewhat puzzled by a conflicting rumour that suggested that PAL may use its A340 because I thought they intend to switch the North American services to Boeing 777 once they get CAT1.


User currently offlines.p.a.s. From Liechtenstein, joined Mar 2001, 966 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11544 times:

They could have routed this flight via YVR.

LAX is already served from GRU with Korean, while the northern side of the North American west coast is not served at all by direct flights, YVR, SEA, PDX and Alaskan markets could benefit of a GRU-YVR flight.

My 2 cents,



"ad astra per aspera"
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17424 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11344 times:

Ooof, we really doin' this? What a terrible idea and use of aircraft time--it'd be much better to beef up PR's regional schedule or the Middle East. Heck even trying the EU again would be less painful.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25066 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11180 times:

Without Cat-I even a codeshare is not possible. They might be wasting their times making noise at the stage.

Quoting s.p.a.s. (Reply 11):
LAX is already served from GRU with Korean, while the northern side of the North American west coast is not served at all by direct flights, YVR, SEA, PDX and Alaskan markets could benefit of a GRU-YVR flight.

In fairness if PAL is going to try to idea, they might as well do it via the biggest Brazil market on the West Coast.

Demand is tiny from places like SEA, PDX, YVR etc.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):

Ooof, we really doin' this? What a terrible idea and use of aircraft time--it'd be much better to beef up PR's regional schedule or the Middle East. Heck even trying the EU again would be less painful.

   PAL has so many problems, and instead of chasing after distant dreams they should focus on rebuilding a strong Far-East network and look to rebuild things like Europe first.

The only thing this flight will benefit are those looking for uber cheap consolidator fares between LA and Brazil. PR is going to have to dump it seat capacity at bargain rates to help fill planes.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 11106 times:
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Quoting C010T3 (Reply 9):
The only way this is going to work is if AA goes out empty-handed out the current US-Brazil frequency proceeding. In the end, PAL is not going for the Philippines-Brazil traffic, but rather for the Brazil-US traffic.

I agree with you, they want to make on Brazil-West Coast traffic


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2181 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 11070 times:

What about the GUM stoppovers in both directions? This plan is complete smoke and mirrors, and honestly, a complete waste of energy.


next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineahlfors From Canada, joined Oct 2000, 1347 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 11007 times:

If they were targeting MNL-GRU traffic, they would route this via JNB or elsewhere in Southern Africa... via LAX is ~2000 miles further than via Southern Africa. So this is definitely mostly targeting LAX-GRU traffic.

User currently offlineCPA62 From Canada, joined Jan 2012, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10964 times:

Quoting s.p.a.s. (Reply 11):
They could have routed this flight via YVR.

LAX is already served from GRU with Korean, while the northern side of the North American west coast is not served at all by direct flights, YVR, SEA, PDX and Alaskan markets could benefit of a GRU-YVR flight.

My 2 cents,

Such route would be a benifit economically to YVR and the surrounding region. The Canadian Government and
Air Canada would never allow it!


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10571 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 3):
Would the Philippines still being Cat. 2 have any effect on getting clearance to launch?
Quoting CPA62 (Reply 17):
Quoting s.p.a.s. (Reply 11):
They could have routed this flight via YVR.

LAX is already served from GRU with Korean, while the northern side of the North American west coast is not served at all by direct flights, YVR, SEA, PDX and Alaskan markets could benefit of a GRU-YVR flight.

My 2 cents,

Such route would be a benifit economically to YVR and the surrounding region. The Canadian Government and
Air Canada would never allow it!

Why not? JAL operated YVR-MEX with 5th freedom rights for many years, and for their last few years of service (after CP dropped the route), JAL was the only nonstop operator YVR-MEX.

Using your argument, why did Canada permit PR to operate YVR-LAS with 5th freedom rights since that route is also served by Canadian carriers, unlike YVR-GRU? And why did Canada grant CX 5th freedom rights YVR-JFK?

[Edited 2013-05-26 15:58:24]

User currently offlinejc2354 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 579 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 10069 times:

If 3 airlines (KE, AA,PR) do fly LAX-GRU, who will get the premium/front cabin passengers?

Thanks



If not now, then when?
User currently onlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 896 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9282 times:

Quoting dforce1 (Reply 10):
Also, while it might be a pain, if someone in the Philippines will be able to afford to put up the cash for a ticket to Brazil, it's likely their pockets are deep enough that they have been to the US multiple times and obtaining a visa should not be a challenge. I can't imagine this flight is going to be cheap.

Mainly Filipinos working in off-shore platforms in Brazil... which does not necessarily means that they have deep pockets nor they have been to the US multiple times (probably never for many of them).


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8525 times:

Quoting dforce1 (Thread starter):
Read More Here: http://www.philippineflightnetwork.c...ppine-airlines-set-to-land-in.html

You know, while I understand you're working very hard promoting your blog both here and on SkyscraperCity, I think it would do some justice if you post directly to the source material.

http://www.rappler.com/business/29986-pal-trim-costs-new-planes-2014

The link says this won't happen until next year. Now for those who are doubting this because of Cat II, the possibility of the FAA adopting the ICAO's findings and lifting Cat II anyway are likely, owing to the budget cuts imposed by the sequester. Let's see what will happen.

Quoting dforce1 (Reply 4):
I doubt that PAL would consider a codeshare with American...

PR and AA are actually quite close. This is why PR seems to be gravitating towards oneworld, though I wish otherwise.

Quoting LurveBus (Reply 6):
That aside, I believe this is going to be a codeshare arrangement. I was told by people processing the approvals that PAL metal will NOT be used between LAX and GRU.

Codeshare with who, though? AA or KE? While the former is likely due to the close ties between the two airlines, I wonder if the latter's possible?

On the other hand, owing to PR's lower operating costs, AA or KE could codeshare with PR instead should this become an extension of PR 102/112.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
Ooof, we really doin' this? What a terrible idea and use of aircraft time--it'd be much better to beef up PR's regional schedule or the Middle East. Heck even trying the EU again would be less painful
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
PAL has so many problems, and instead of chasing after distant dreams they should focus on rebuilding a strong Far-East network and look to rebuild things like Europe first.

And what makes the both of you think PR isn't doing that, given that it's launching new Far East services (CAN), virtually resurrecting its Middle East network from the dead (RUH, DMM, AUH, DXB on 2P, DOH), and is awaiting the arrival of its new A321s to boost its regional capacity?   

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 15):
What about the GUM stoppovers in both directions?

The GUM stop is only the westbound. Eastbound flights to the United States are non-stop.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 20):
Mainly Filipinos working in off-shore platforms in Brazil... which does not necessarily means that they have deep pockets nor they have been to the US multiple times (probably never for many of them).

Don't discount as well the large Brazilian community in the Philippines.


User currently offlineFreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8362 times:

Also, you have flights from Japan connecting in LAX to it. Lots of Japanese people that go to Brazil, big Japanese community there.....and limited routings to connect Japan/Brazil.

User currently offlinedforce1 From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7771 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 21):
You know, while I understand you're working very hard promoting your blog both here and on SkyscraperCity, I think it would do some justice if you post directly to the source material.

http://www.rappler.com/business/29986-pal-trim-costs-new-planes-2014



The link says this won't happen until next year. Now for those who are doubting this because of Cat II, the possibility of the FAA adopting the ICAO's findings and lifting Cat II anyway are likely, owing to the budget cuts imposed by the sequester. Let's see what will happen.

Actually, the Rappler article that you included only states "PAL is also set to expand direct flights to Sao Paulo, Brazil via Los Angeles soon."

My Philippine Flight Network blog reported that "Philippine Airlines aims to launch service to Brazil by 2014." That was also reported by the Exciting Centennial of Philippine Aviation blog.

So I am unclear where you found it said that it won't happen until next year? The goal of my blog is to collect the information contained in various news articles and put it all into one article for convenience as I find that many Philippine news sources tend to contain varying and sometimes conflicting information.

Secondly, it's not about promoting my blog but promoting discussion. Airliners.net was formed on a passion of aviation photography and sharing it with others. I just happen to prefer aviation writing and I like to share it with others  


Since you seem unsatisfied with the credibility of my blog, here is a report from the Philippine Daily Inquirer also reporting that "Flag carrier Philippine Airlines plans to mount daily flights to Brazil BEFORE THE END OF THE YEAR—ahead of the football World Cup in South America’s biggest country next year."

PAL to launch flights to Brazil before year end

[Edited 2013-05-27 05:39:12 by SA7700]

User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6091 times:

Quoting dforce1 (Reply 23):
My Philippine Flight Network blog reported that "Philippine Airlines aims to launch service to Brazil by 2014." That was also reported by the Exciting Centennial of Philippine Aviation blog.

Some local forumers have disparaged the latter blog for a string of inaccurate predictions, which is why the reputation of the latter blog has been suspect, particularly among the aviation forumers at PinoyExchange (PEx). You might have seen a number of forumers on SSC who have publicly questioned the truthfulness of the Exciting World/Centennial of Philippine Aviation blog: these forumers are also active on PEx.

Quoting dforce1 (Reply 23):
Secondly, it's not about promoting my blog but promoting discussion. Airliners.net was formed on a passion of aviation photography and sharing it with others. I just happen to prefer aviation writing and I like to share it with others  

I perfectly understand that. Just don't make the same mistakes as the Exciting World/Centennial of Philippine Aviation blog, and you will be fine.  
Quoting dforce1 (Reply 23):
Since you seem unsatisfied with the credibility of my blog

I did not suggest that your blog was not credible. However, given the controversy already surrounding the Exciting World/Centennial of Philippine Aviation blog, aviation forumers in the Philippines have the right to be leery.


User currently offlinedforce1 From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5411 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 24):
I perfectly understand that. Just don't make the same mistakes as the Exciting World/Centennial of Philippine Aviation blog, and you will be fine.  

Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate it. I can understand your hesitation to rely on blogs but not all blogs are made equal. I do approach this with somewhat of a journalism background as I briefly studied it in university. I have done some reporting in the past and I continue to do freelance so I hope that I would carry a higher standard. I am trying to make my reporting and the look of my blog as professional as possible.

Typically, my goal is to report everything I hear but if I can't confirm it through a reliable source, I indicate that in my blog and cite it as rumour. I will work hard to earn the trust of the Philippine Aviation Community. But it is important to remember that even mainstream media sometimes makes mistakes so there should be a little bit of room for forgiveness!

I have no doubt what you are saying is true but it does surprise me at the number of people who continue to cite the Exciting Centennial blog as reference in their posts given its reputation...Philippine Flight Network is only a month old so I hope it has made a positive initial impression in spite of a few hiccups...

[Edited 2013-05-27 13:35:00]

User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2168 posts, RR: 13
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5090 times:

Routing through the USA and its idiotic "you-need-a-visa-to-actually-not-enter-our-country" rules which will make life very difficult for many passengers? Why? The LA-Brazil market doesn't need any new carriers. And if there isn't enough Philippines-Brazil traffic, then why fly the route anyway?

User currently onlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 896 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5143 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 21):
Don't discount as well the large Brazilian community in the Philippines.

The "large Brazilian community in the Philippines" also need transit visas.


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5024 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 27):
The "large Brazilian community in the Philippines" also need transit visas.

My statement did not deny that Brazilians need transit visas. However, given Visa Waiver Program reform (which, given the state of Congress, will take a very long time), I won't be surprised if Brazilians will be able to visit the United States again visa-free.


User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2168 posts, RR: 13
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4925 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 28):
My statement did not deny that Brazilians need transit visas. However, given Visa Waiver Program reform (which, given the state of Congress, will take a very long time), I won't be surprised if Brazilians will be able to visit the United States again visa-free.

... but will need to stand between 30 and 120 minutes in line at immigration at LAX, although they do not even want to enter the country.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2181 posts, RR: 15
Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4763 times:

Quoting mozart (Reply 26):
And if there isn't enough Philippines-Brazil traffic, then why fly the route anyway?

There is absolutely zero business case behind the impetus to launch this route other than for glamour purposes. PAL has basically lost control over the domestic market to Cebu, and is essentially banking hard on long-haul expansion as the future of the carrier.

While not an in-viable strategy, PAL needs to be a bit more strategic/realistic about pursuing new markets where it can capably compete and grow profitably rather than test out ideas completely out of left field such as this one.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4282 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 30):
There is absolutely zero business case behind the impetus to launch this route other than for glamour purposes.

It's your word against Ramon Ang's, as he supposedly has a business case for the route, although granted, the market he's looking to tap is small. If there was absolutely no business case, then why would he say that Brazil is the largest source of tourists to the Philippines from South America (which, I presume, would be backed up by DOT data)? Or that the business case he's looking to lobby for is not necessarily Philippines-Brazil, but United States-Brazil: a substantially larger market? This is also factoring in that MNL-LAX is one of PR's most profitable routes.

As far as I know, "prestige" as a factor in route planning at PR has been thrown out the window since 1998, when it went into bankruptcy.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 30):
PAL has basically lost control over the domestic market to Cebu, and is essentially banking hard on long-haul expansion as the future of the carrier.

Then what is 2P for?   


User currently offlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 483 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4236 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 31):
It's your word against Ramon Ang's, as he supposedly has a business case for the route, although granted, the market he's looking to tap is small.

It seems proof that beer and airlines are not a very good combination. After Kingfisher, we have now the San Miguel antics...

But to get serious now: I really can't see this work with a transit in the US and the required visa and other related hassles (how does luggage work???). I have done a LAX transfer to MEX and I was visa free and it was absolutely no fun. Philippinos might be visa free to Brazil, but it takes at least 1 month to get the required US visa. And it needs to be a multiple entry visa so might even be more complicated. Is PR going to keep the plane 6 hours on the ground in LAX to make sure nobody travelling onwards is left behind? A quick turn around of 1.5 hours on this kind of flight is normal, but with a US stopover that is unfeasibly short unless everyone flying onwards stays in the plane.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2181 posts, RR: 15
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4155 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 31):
Or that the business case he's looking to lobby for is not necessarily Philippines-Brazil, but United States-Brazil: a substantially larger market?

Which is even more obscure because LAX-GRU is not high-yielding. If RA wanted to target US-Brasil, then PR should enter MIA-GRU or NYC-GRU, but not from LAX. It's an exceptionally-long flight to operate on a high-CASM A340 (over 6,000 NM) and all it is going to do is depress yields even further with three carriers saturating the route (AA, KE and PR) and nobody will emerge as the winner.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 31):
This is also factoring in that MNL-LAX is one of PR's most profitable routes.

That is all smoke and mirrors. Just because MNLLAX is a profitable route does not mean that MNLGRU, nor LAXGRU, will be profitable either. There is absolutely no linkage between the two ideas.

This is honestly PR just grasping for straws by wanting to get their foot through the door in a market where they aren't needed.


Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
Why not? JAL operated YVR-MEX with 5th freedom rights for many years, and for their last few years of service (after CP dropped the route), JAL was the only nonstop operator YVR-MEX.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
Using your argument, why did Canada permit PR to operate YVR-LAS with 5th freedom rights since that route is also served by Canadian carriers, unlike YVR-GRU? And why did Canada grant CX 5th freedom rights YVR-JFK?

Likely because there is much higher demand for service from YVR to LAS, MEX and JFK and hardly any from YVR to GRU.

Although, someone with access to numbers should back that up instead.

[Edited 2013-05-29 09:35:51 by SA7700]


next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineHOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3007 posts, RR: 52
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4105 times:
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CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 31):
If there was absolutely no business case, then why would he say that Brazil is the largest source of tourists to the Philippines from South America (which, I presume, would be backed up by DOT data)?

Since Brazil is the largest country in South America period, they are likely to be the largest source of South American tourists for pretty much any country.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 33):
Which is even more obscure because LAX-GRU is not high-yielding. If RA wanted to target US-Brasil, then PR should enter MIA-GRU or NYC-GRU, but not from LAX. It's an exceptionally-long flight to operate on a high-CASM A340 (over 6,000 NM) and all it is going to do is depress yields even further with three carriers saturating the route (AA, KE and PR) and nobody will emerge as the winner.

LAX-GRU is around 155 PDEW which seems kind of tight for three airlines, especially with only one of them having any significant feed from any end.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 21):
PR and AA are actually quite close.

I wasn't aware of this. I'd like to know more about it.



The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 8326 posts, RR: 7
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4081 times:
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Why would low yielding Phillipine Air want to fly all the way to GRU ? This is an airline with a lousy management record which should find a route it can fly nonstop from Manila and join an alliance for flights to Latin American can be code shared.

User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3950 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 33):
It's an exceptionally-long flight to operate on a high-CASM A340 (over 6,000 NM)

He was planning to use the 77W.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 34):
I wasn't aware of this. I'd like to know more about it.

Partially because AA is the preferred interline partner for those flying PR to onward destinations from SFO and LAX, and partially because of TWA, which was the preferred partner prior to it merging with AA.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 35):
This is an airline with a lousy management record

You know they changed management, right?

[Edited 2013-05-29 10:42:33]

User currently offlinewillzzz88 From United States of America, joined May 2011, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3816 times:

You know PR FIRST needs to get those LAX and SFO flights West-bound I believe NON-STOP. No one likes an extra stop in GUM. I know PR people like to take lots of luggage but the 77W should have no payload problems. (Just ask CX on JFK-HKG which is longer). But to switch the flights to 77W which they were planning to do they need to get themselves back to CAT I status. They should be aiming for that instead of flying all the way to GRU.

User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3788 times:

GUM stop is very quick PAX remain onboard for a quick Fuel stop usally about 24 mins or less..allows for Max weight takeoff from LAX and SFO and daylight arrival in Manila.. HA has to quit Manila because they can not carry any Cargo with all the Bags (Boxes) checked in by the Pax, it is no good to fly Empty..

User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3727 times:

Quoting willzzz88 (Reply 37):
You know PR FIRST needs to get those LAX and SFO flights West-bound I believe NON-STOP. No one likes an extra stop in GUM. I know PR people like to take lots of luggage but the 77W should have no payload problems.

PR Doesn't want the extra stop neither, it costs extra money. However, due to CAT 2 they cant change equipment. BUT Ill bet you money once CAT 2 has been lifted the 77W will be plying these routes non-stop West bound all year long.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 38):
HA has to quit Manila because they can not carry any Cargo with all the Bags (Boxes) checked in by the Pax, it is no good to fly Empty..

I wonder with the rumor of 777 coming in, if they would return to MNL?



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineYVRSpeedBird From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3558 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 36):
You know they changed management, right?

Yes they did... from one lousy management to another! Ramon Ang may be a good CEO in the food/beer/petroleum businesses, but the airline business is a completely different ball game. He should have hired foreign consultants who have experience running airlines, much like what Lance Gokongwei did with Cebu Pacific. But no, he replaced the old management with his friends from the Binondo club! For those who are unfamiliar, Binondo is Manila's Chinatown where so many of the Filipino-Chinese taipans hail from: self-made millionaires/billionaires who started with mom & pop shops/trading businesses. I'm sorry, but you cannot run a big flag carrier like a Binondo trading shop! These guys are brilliant bean counters & businessmen/women in their own right, but they don't have the knowledge whatsoever in running an airline.

We've already seen some of RSA's business decisions with PAL fail: the big hype about YYZ (which has a large Filipino population & a bigger market than Brazil will ever be) non-stop in the end became unsustainable, hence the YVR stop both ways just to name one. It took all of two months since the route launch for them to realize this, or they just gave up way too early on allowing the market to mature. Their printed advertisements still mention non-stop up to this day! Now tell me, is that a way to run an airline? Propose routes here and there, launch services and within 2 months say oops, it's not going to work! What happened to the feasibility studies? Heck, they couldn't even make DEL work, and they went through the same flip-flopping with this market as YYZ - first a split operation 6 x a week non-stop (3x)/one-stop via BKK (3x), then the non-stop was discontinued within a year of launch, then the 1-stop service was re-timed a couple of times... hmmm let's see if daytime flights or night-time flights work for this route???... and all within one year!

RSA is turning PAL into the laughing stock of airlines with proposed routes way out of left field that not even the best managed airlines in the world would dare to attempt. It would be in PAL's best interest if RSA learns to keep his mouth closed, be a professional airline head, and concentrate on the things that would make the airline great again - work behind the scenes with the authorities (which I'm sure he's already doing but needs to be more assertive) to have the country upgraded from Cat 2, removed from the EU blacklist, improve the airport experience, solve the traffic congestion at NAIA, etc... But he should really refrain from talking to the press with all those crazy route proposals before the issues I mentioned have been resolved. We don't need another Tim Clark, Richard Branson, Tony Fernandes, Michael O'Leary, etc!

And when all of those issues have become non-issues, PAL can tap the untapped markets that are so obvious & make a lot more sense than Brazil/Africa/whatever came out of RSA's mouth recently. Like finally putting those 77Ws to daily or double daily LAX/SFO nonstop both directions & introduce/re-introduce JFK/EWR, ORD, LHR, CDG, FRA, FCO, MXP to name a few. The Middle East is another bright spot for the airline (despite competition just because of the sheer size of the market) & I know they're starting with AUH once the new A330s arrive, so at least that's a step in the right direction. And India could once again be served, not only for the local O&D market but also for connectivity to North America. The upcoming services to Australia (DRW/BNE/PER) are experiments worth watching, but should god-forbid these fail, at least they won't be as expensive a mistake as Brazil. Heck, even AKL should be served well before GRU/GIG!

[Edited 2013-05-29 20:18:57]

[Edited 2013-05-29 20:20:06]

[Edited 2013-05-29 21:05:06]

[Edited 2013-05-29 21:15:18]

User currently offlinehugo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3413 times:

Well said, YVR Speedbird. I am afraid that PR's top management, like many of the elites that govern the country, enjoy making incredible pronouncements they can never realize or sustain.

God knows that NAIA 1 will never, ever get to world-class standard under the current management despite all the hoopla that it will be fixed.

Even some of my compatriot users of Airliners.net sometimes seem to need a double dose of reality.

I want the Philippines , PR, 5J, NAIA, and everything else to improve but we should stop all the pie-in-th-sky prononcements because we only undermine our credibility.


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3414 times:

Oh, gee.  



Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 40):
Yes they did... from one lousy management to another! Ramon Ang may be a good CEO in the food/beer/petroleum businesses, but the airline business is a completely different ball game.

You know Ramon Ang is a pilot, right? I'd presume he'd be aware of how the airline industry works. At least he's doing a better job than Jaime Bautista when he was at the helm, if perception was a judge.

And also, as far as I know, he's the President and COO. It's still Lucio Tan, in his capacity as the Chairman and CEO of PAL Holdings, who's calling the shots, even if behind the scenes.

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 40):
But no, he replaced the old management with his friends from the Binondo club!

And you have sources to back this up? Sure, I see a bunch of familiar Chinese names sitting on PR's board (Washington SyCip, Bobby Ongpin and Michael Tan to name a few, along with some of Lucio Tan's family members), but seriously, the entire management structure?   

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 40):
We've already seen some of RSA's business decisions with PAL fail: the big hype about YVR stop both ways just to name one.

Based on local forums, a big factor in this was PR's inability to secure Russian overflight rights, which would cut travel times significantly.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=103512662&postcount=34173

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=103542156&postcount=34188

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 40):
Now tell me, is that a way to run an airline? Propose routes here and there, launch services and within 2 months say oops, it's not going to work! What happened to the feasibility studies?

What makes you think he has no feasibility studies? Sure, Brazil may be left-of-field, but what about CAN? Or the discontinuation of Middle East codeshares in favor of service direct on PR/2P metal? Are you telling me that these are not backed up by feasibility studies, since you're essentially claiming that PR simply plans its new routes on a dartboard, like people say about DL?

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 40):
It would be in PAL's best interest if RSA learns to keep his mouth closed, be a professional airline head, and concentrate on the things that would make the airline great again - work behind the scenes with the authorities (which I'm sure he's already doing but needs to be more assertive) to have the country upgraded from Cat 2, removed from the EU blacklist, improve the airport experience, solve the traffic congestion at NAIA, etc...

Again, what makes you think he isn't doing that? PR, in hiring consultants to help the CAAP (something which the other local airlines did NOT do), is pulling a disproportionate amount of weight in getting us out of this mess. And look where it got us: the ICAO SSCs were lifted, and we may see action on the EU blacklist and Cat II soon.

Maybe I should remind you that PR is a private business. It doesn't have to do these things that you want it to do, as if it were a state-run airline. Maybe you should ask 5J, Z2, etc. to do the same, then we'll have a field day. (Oh, wait: they're benefiting from PR doing all the work, while doing nothing themselves. Where's the fun in that?)

Now, is this you being impartial, or is this your condescending view of the airline (and, as I can still remember from threads past, the country) talking?

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 40):
Like finally putting those 77Ws to daily or double daily LAX/SFO nonstop both directions

That has always been the plan. Remember: when PR got the 77W, their first plan was to make LAX double-daily with the launch of a morning flight. So why do you think PR is desperate to get the 77W to launch? (And, for that matter, Brazil was to be served with the 77W if ever, now that you mentioned it.)

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 40):
& introduce/re-introduce JFK/EWR, ORD, LHR, CDG, FRA, FCO, MXP to name a few.

Also in the plan. Maybe you forgot to watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIjRt3isp4Y

For someone who claims to know so much about PR, I'm surprised you don't know that they've long planned a return to Europe, contingent on the Philippines' removal from the EU blacklist (which France and UK have said they're willing to help us out on).

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 40):
The Middle East is another bright spot for the airline (despite competition just because of the sheer size of the market) & I know they're starting with AUH once the new A330s arrive, so at least that's a step in the right direction.
AUH, DXB, DOH, RUH, DMM and JED (in that order) will be launched all within three months. While this is very ambitious (with DXB being handed over to 2P), let's see how it goes.

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 40):
Heck, even AKL should be served well before GRU/GIG!

I know New Zealand tried to get direct service to the Philippines, but I don't know what happened afterward. This was before Ramon Ang entered the picture.

[Edited 2013-05-29 22:57:31]

[Edited 2013-05-29 22:58:28]

User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3388 times:

Quoting hugo (Reply 41):
God knows that NAIA 1 will never, ever get to world-class standard under the current management despite all the hoopla that it will be fixed.

I am under the impression you haven't seen the renovations yet, and this is considering that the renovations aren't even yet complete. (And yes, I just came from the airport this morning.)

By the way, do you know that NAIA-1 will finally have LCD displays to replace those LED displays in the check-in area? If that's not progress, then I don't know what is.


User currently offlineYVRSpeedBird From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3325 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 42):
You know Ramon Ang is a pilot, right? I'd presume he'd be aware of how the airline industry works. At least he's doing a better job than Jaime Bautista when he was at the helm, if perception was a judge.

And also, as far as I know, he's the President and COO. It's still Lucio Tan, in his capacity as the Chairman and CEO of PAL Holdings, who's calling the shots, even if behind the scenes.

Ahhh yes, so a transit bus driver should run the bus company! No, perhaps the transit authority itself! Even then, a bus driver who's made a career out of driving is probably better equipped to run his company than RSA running an airline. Let's not forget that RSA started out as a mechanic for Danding Cojuangco, became his right hand man, and somehow learned how to fly planes somewhere in the process - but he was never a commercial pilot. If someone who has a PPL as a hobby should manage a flag carrier... oh gee! And Lucio Tan is already senile! RSA is calling the shots... LT now is just a figurehead, much like the Queen. I give it to you though that he's doing a better job than Jaime Bautista... only because JB did such a poor job that it makes RSA look like a whiz!



Quoting Akiestar (Reply 42):
Based on local forums, a big factor in this was PR's inability to secure Russian overflight rights, which would cut travel times significantly.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=103512662&postcount=34173

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...34188

If that's the case, then they should have done their homework and secured all the rights before announcing the route & hyping it to the public as a non-stop... much like they should wait for Cat 2 & the EU blacklist to be lifted before making all these pronouncements. Makes them look amateurish... but then again none of the PAL management has run an airline before so I suppose they are indeed amateurs.



Quoting Akiestar (Reply 42):
What makes you think he has no feasibility studies? Sure, Brazil may be left-of-field, but what about CAN? Or the discontinuation of Middle East codeshares in favor of service direct on PR/2P metal? Are you telling me that these are not backed up by feasibility studies, since you're essentially claiming that PR simply plans its new routes on a dartboard, like people say about DL?

Then whoever made the Brazil feasibility studies should be fired and replaced ASAP. Plain and simple, the SMALL market that exists between MNL & Brazil is already well served via SQ, EK, etc... PAL hasn't even gotten it's house cleaned up yet and now they want to encroach on the US/Brazil market? My goodness... a lot of their fifth freedom rights flights (BKK/DEL, YVR/LAS, SIN/CGK) were unsuccessful and these flights actually do make sense for them. If LAX-GRU/GIG is that lucrative, then other airlines would have already launched this route, eg CX HKG-LAX-GRU/GIG.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 42):
Again, what makes you think he isn't doing that? PR, in hiring consultants to help the CAAP (something which the other local airlines did NOT do), is pulling a disproportionate amount of weight in getting us out of this mess. And look where it got us: the ICAO SSCs were lifted, and we may see action on the EU blacklist and Cat II soon.

Maybe I should remind you that PR is a private business. It doesn't have to do these things that you want it to do, as if it were a state-run airline. Maybe you should ask 5J, Z2, etc. to do the same, then we'll have a field day. (Oh, wait: they're benefiting from PR doing all the work, while doing nothing themselves. Where's the fun in that?)

Now, is this you being impartial, or is this your condescending view of the airline (and, as I can still remember from threads past, the country) talking?

I did say that he's already doing this. But it should be the top priority, and no absurd route announcements must be made until this important matter is resolved. And by the way, 5J, Z2, etc... don't have to do it because they don't have grandiose plans to serve markets beyond their reach! And trust me, as someone who has to deal with CAAP for my ATPL & medical every year, I can pretty much tell you that NOTHING HAS CHANGED! It is the same incompetent bureaucracy that it was before.

And no, it is not my condescending view of this airline and this country. It is reality. I can say that because I was born in this country, although I grew up abroad, but now that I'm back here flying for a living, I see the incompetence of the aviation industry on a daily basis. It's a shame because I see so much potential that is wasted. The people here should really stop being so sensitive because believe me, I don't want to see our airlines fail. It is not a criticism that I'm throwing... it is reality and whoever runs PAL, CAAP, CAB, the media and the local forums need a dose of it!

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 42):
Also in the plan. Maybe you forgot to watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIjRt3isp4Y

For someone who claims to know so much about PR, I'm surprised you don't know that they've long planned a return to Europe, contingent on the Philippines' removal from the EU blacklist (which France and UK have said they're willing to help us out on).

I am very well aware of these plans. But they need to be reminded of it because now it looks like they are being sidetracked by unrealistic proposals like Brazil. Baby steps! That's what RSA needs to do. One battle at a time.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 42):
And you have sources to back this up? Sure, I see a bunch of familiar Chinese names sitting on PR's board (Washington SyCip, Bobby Ongpin and Michael Tan to name a few, along with some of Lucio Tan's family members), but seriously, the entire management structure?

Look at their organizational chart and you'll know what I mean. The BoD list is not an indication of this... having said that, on it are a lot of brilliant minds who've never run an airline nor flew on a commercial flight thanks to their money and success. Do you think Inigo Zobel flies commercial to Brazil to visit his farm/in-laws? Not with the roster of jets they have at Ayala Aviation!

[Edited 2013-05-30 00:19:06]

User currently offlinehugo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 43):


I happen to fly through NAIA 1 a lot. In fact, I am now in Changi and will be seeing Locsin's poorly-maintained structure in a few hours so do not think I am out-of-touch. Throwing in a couple of LCD monitors and putting carpet tile and fake wood-grain panels here and there does not qualify as a step toward world-class. Even Cambodia and Vietnam have FAR SUPERIOR airport facilities than NAIA.

It's delusional thinking that PR and NAIA are currently in top form.

Sure, I understand your enthusiasm about Philippine aviation; I also happen to want to see our country succeed. However, this is not going to happen if we do not question the current standards of management.

[Edited 2013-05-30 01:03:04]

User currently offlineYVRSpeedBird From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3225 times:

Quoting hugo (Reply 45):
I happen to fly through NAIA 1 a lot. In fact, I am now in Changi and will be seeing Locsin's poorly-maintained structure in a few hours so do not think I am out-of-touch. Throwing in a couple of LCD monitors and putting carpet tile and fake wood-grain panels here and there does not qualify as a step toward world-class. Even Cambodia and Vietnam have FAR SUPERIOR airport facilities than NAIA.

It's delusional thinking that PR and NAIA are currently in top form.

Sure, I understand your enthusiasm about Philippine aviation; I also happen to want to see our country succeed. However, this is not going to happen if we do not question the current standards of management.

Well said hugo! I couldn't agree with you more. Just because you and I did not drink the new PAL kool aid (nor C2 or Zesto for that matter  ) does not mean that we want the aviation industry in the Philippines to fail. In fact, we need to keep questioning the decisions made by the powers that be so that the little progress we've seen so far does not remain stagnant and sidetracked. I've seen a lot of uninformed & misplaced delusions of grandeur by those in the industry here and those who sing their praises, and it's embarrassing to the worldwide aviation industry!


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 44):
Look at their organizational chart and you'll know what I mean.
http://www1.philippineairlines.com/a...al/pal-holding/directors-officers/

Okay, so tell me who here is from this "Binondo club" you speak of? Start naming names, then we'll talk.

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 44):
If that's the case, then they should have done their homework and secured all the rights before announcing the route & hyping it to the public as a non-stop... much like they should wait for Cat 2 & the EU blacklist to be lifted before making all these pronouncements.

How do you know they didn't? They were able to fly the route non-stop anyway without overflight rights, but obviously the routing it took cost it more.

And heck, they did fly it as a non-stop. Now I am not privy as to why they made it MNL-YVR-YYZ both ways, but to imply that it is PR's fault that it failed to get overflight rights does not do justice to the fact that, at the end of the day, government still decides what to do. So you'll conveniently blame the airline, but not the government that dispenses the rights?   

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 44):
And by the way, 5J, Z2, etc... don't have to do it because they don't have grandiose plans to serve markets beyond their reach!

They don't, huh? I guess you didn't know that Z2 had plans of serving the Middle East with 777s. What happened to that? How about SM (Spirit of Manila Airlines, now Astro Air) and its plans of serving the Middle East with 747s? Or 5J's plans to serve Europe once we're off the blacklist?

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 44):
Makes them look amateurish... but then again none of the PAL management has run an airline before so I suppose they are indeed amateurs.

I guess you should write to Lucio Tan then to make you President and COO, since you *obviously* believe you can do better.   (Oh, wait, you're a pilot too, right?)

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 44):
The people here should really stop being so sensitive because believe me, I don't want to see our airlines fail. It is not a criticism that I'm throwing... it is reality and whoever runs PAL, CAAP, CAB, the media and the local forums need a dose of it!

And people like you should stop thinking as if you know everything and make us believe that you have the panacea to all our problems. If you claim to be so knowledgeable, I bet by now President Aquino would have made you head of the CAAP. Or, heck, I bet you would have run for Senator.  

I don't want to see our airlines fail either, but I hate it when crab mentality blinds us from the reality that we are forced to live with, and then Filipinos who have lived abroad think that "Oh, just because I live in Canada or the U.S. automatically means I know better than the people here". And this is coming from someone who has lived abroad and who has seen the country from a foreign lens. Your "criticisms" come off as patronizing if you pontificate about knowing better, without giving an iota of context as to why things are the way they are.

I'd like to change things too, and I am hopeful, but do I boast about knowing better? Obviously not. I am not high-and-mighty like you're coming off as.

Quoting hugo (Reply 45):
I happen to fly through NAIA 1 a lot. In fact, I am now in Changi and will be seeing Locsin's poorly-maintained structure in a few hours so do not think I am out-of-touch. Throwing in a couple of LCD monitors and putting carpet tile and fake wood-grain panels here and there does not qualify as a step toward world-class. Even Cambodia and Vietnam have FAR SUPERIOR airport facilities than NAIA.

It's delusional thinking that PR and NAIA are currently in top form.

Sure, I understand your enthusiasm about Philippine aviation; I also happen to want to see our country succeed. However, this is not going to happen if we do not question the current standards of management.

Oh, fun. I too was in SIN this morning.

I did not suggest that MNL is in top form. However, to patently believe that "oh, MNL deserves the title of 'worst airport in the world'" and all that hoopla simply because we don't measure up to SIN, BKK or KUL (which all have infinitely nicer terminals anyway because their governments were capable of investing in the infrastructure to make it happen) does no justice to the fact that NAIA-1 now is still much better than NAIA-1 ten years ago: a terminal where back then there were no working toilets, a terminal which was dark and dingy, and a terminal that obviously screamed age.

I've seen a decent number of airports, and while MNL is one of the worse ones, I've seen worse, and I bet you have too. The government still has to split money between maintaining MNL and 86 other domestic airports (some of which are absolutely atrocious, like the old ILO, or MRQ): something which is not easy on a shoestring budget. It's a good thing that given the country's budgetary woes, we even have money to spend on improvements to our airports, and I'll happily give the government credit for that.

Now, where is it in my statement that I implied MNL is in top form?   


User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7551 posts, RR: 25
Reply 48, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3020 times:

If this goes through, LAX-GRU just became the lowest yielding route to South America.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 49, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2997 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 48):
If this goes through, LAX-GRU just became the lowest yielding route to South America.

True. And there's not so much of a market right now for 4 Gulf/Turkish carriers, I can't believe with Brazilian economy slowing down (a lot) this route would last so much. Etihad need to scale down, TK will use a smaller plane....
Brazil need to rethink their hole business activities as this would be a better chance to attract tourists than to send leisure people abroad. But there's no governmental action focusing that.
GIG and GRU O&D to MNL seems very similar with the difference that GIG is by far much more business oriented than GRU due to the oil & gas industry.

And the flight goes to GRU... as Infraero don't want, don't need and don't care about additional flights into GIG, while GRU Airport manages very well their commercial attitude (funny it is a Rio de Janeiro based company!) and looks to every opportunity to bring extra revenue.
Private and Public... what a difference.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLurveBus From Philippines, joined Mar 2007, 286 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2823 times:

All this talk over a possible codeshare...

I asked people again. PR metal will not be flying to GRU.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 51, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2740 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting LurveBus (Reply 50):
All this talk over a possible codeshare...

I asked people again. PR metal will not be flying to GRU.

Would be very smart if that's the case. Codeshare make sense and allow PR to reach GRU and GIG easier and with far less risks.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineYVRSpeedBird From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2567 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 47):
Okay, so tell me who here is from this "Binondo club" you speak of? Start naming names, then we'll talk.

I wasn't talking about the Board. I'm talking about the management team, in charge of day to day operations. It's not on their website, but there were around 8 VP's sacked and replaced by the Binondo club. RSA should have hired experienced management team from other airlines, even foreign ones.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 47):
How do you know they didn't? They were able to fly the route non-stop anyway without overflight rights, but obviously the routing it took cost it more.

And heck, they did fly it as a non-stop. Now I am not privy as to why they made it MNL-YVR-YYZ both ways, but to imply that it is PR's fault that it failed to get overflight rights does not do justice to the fact that, at the end of the day, government still decides what to do. So you'll conveniently blame the airline, but not the government that dispenses the rights?

I've flown PR 118/119 3 times in the last few months and roughly 80% of the pax like myself deplaned in YVR. I flew all flights in J-Class and at one point, not a single pax in the cabin was headed to YYZ. This may not tell the entire story of YYZ, but if it's any indication, I am inclined to believe that this route is not doing well. If this is not the case, why then did they launch non-stop flights without knowing all the government regulations? To me this sounds like an amateur decision with no homework and a lack of preparation. In fact, YYZ was announced with only a month's lead time before the inaugural flight. It is quite common in the industry to launch at least 4-6 months, even a year before first flight, to allow for sales, advertising & distribution. Let's face it, they took one more 77W with nowhere to fly it, and YYZ was their only alternative. Otherwise you would have one more airframe flying to places it's not needed, two of which are down under and by the looks of it, now YYZ too.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 47):
They don't, huh? I guess you didn't know that Z2 had plans of serving the Middle East with 777s. What happened to that? How about SM (Spirit of Manila Airlines, now Astro Air) and its plans of serving the Middle East with 747s? Or 5J's plans to serve Europe once we're off the blacklist?

Again, there is a market for the Middle East & even Europe had these airlines pushed through with their plans. Stay focused on the topic which is Brazil. Read my lips - there is NO viable market between the two countries that is not already well served by other airlines. While you did say on your latest reply that it will be codeshare, that was never the discussion. In fact, you made a laughable suggestion that AA or KE codeshare with PR instead owing to their lower operating cost!

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 47):
I guess you should write to Lucio Tan then to make you President and COO, since you *obviously* believe you can do better. (Oh, wait, you're a pilot too, right?)

I am unqualified because I am not a member of Tan's family, and also because I did not serve RSA as a loyal secretary, friend, mechanic, etc.... My degree from one of Europe's top business schools, 10 years of corporate management experience as the only Pinoy in that level with that renowned company, & more recently my new career as a pilot is not enough to land me a job at PAL. I am allergic to nepotism so my business vision does not jive well with RSA's.


Quoting Akiestar (Reply 47):
And people like you should stop thinking as if you know everything and make us believe that you have the panacea to all our problems. If you claim to be so knowledgeable, I bet by now President Aquino would have made you head of the CAAP. Or, heck, I bet you would have run for Senator.

I don't want to see our airlines fail either, but I hate it when crab mentality blinds us from the reality that we are forced to live with, and then Filipinos who have lived abroad think that "Oh, just because I live in Canada or the U.S. automatically means I know better than the people here". And this is coming from someone who has lived abroad and who has seen the country from a foreign lens. Your "criticisms" come off as patronizing if you pontificate about knowing better, without giving an iota of context as to why things are the way they are.

I'd like to change things too, and I am hopeful, but do I boast about knowing better? Obviously not. I am not high-and-mighty like you're coming off as.

I don't know everything, I just know what's stupid and absurd, which is starting a route to Brazil! Again, stay on topic here. And by the way, knowledge is not king in the Philippines. Otherwise a certain senator-elect with no experience would not have won. And a certain ex-armed forces guy who is loyal to the President but is completely incompetent would not be running the airport authority.

And it is not crab mentality, it is reality. Welcome to the world of globalization (should not apply to PAL & US-Brazil!), or globalized thinking. I may be blunt & can come across as a know-it-all but that's not my problem. That's the problem of sensitive people who easily become defensive. People should really quit the villager mentality!


User currently offlinehugo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2379 times:

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 52):
Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 52):

Once again, well-said, YVR Speedbird.

I want to call a spade, a spade. PAL management under Tan only weakend the position of the airline; an example of how privatiztion can actually make things worse for the country if an institution falls into the wrong hands. I was initially hopeful that under Ang, PAL, may again regain its bearings and finally have a viable flight plan in place. Unfortunately, there have been too many pronouncements that do not inspire confidence that PAL has the flight plan or right captain at the helm.

The announcement of GRU as a future destination is one such pronouncement. It makes me wonder if management knows that the waypoints to GRU are not necessarily fixed georaphical locations but points circled by red ink on a PL statement. One must remember that when Lucio Tan first took over, he did so will all guns blazing putting an order for 36 new aircraft including 7 747-400s. He even announced all-new new cabin crew uniforms...Then a black swan in the form of the Asian crisis appeared and then PAL was shut down for dubious reasons and most of the aircraft on order were NTU. As much as I like hearing news about large airplane orders, I wonder if RSA is following the same flight path Tan chose. It puzzles me why he will make a pronouncement that 100 planes are going to be purchased and routes like GRU, that have no compelling reasons to be operated, are selected and broadcast to all.

A few people now know what happened after Tan miscalculated: he completely went the other way and downsized PAL to the point that it lost most of its significance and allowed an upstart like 5J to prosper. The uniforms, incidentally, never got changed up to this day, almost 2 decades after their announcement.

I certainly do not want Ang to follow the same flight plan Tan did: that flight plan was the talk- big, gamble- big, lose big flight plan. It also included the fire-the-qualified-consultancy-then-run- it- like- a sari-sari-store flight plan. BTW, that consultancy was made up of CX veterans...

While the Philippine government no longer had to fund the excesses of a GFI, the whole country -all Filipinos including those that do not fly- lost much more - in ways that can and cannot be quantified. An airline can be an indispensable tool for building a nation- just look at SQ and EK. Improperly managed, it is a poor reflection of the country.

I hope Ang soon knows that running a successful airline is best left to seasoned professionals who can work behind the scenes and make the big boss and the country still look good. As for GRU, I flew there recently from MNL the fun way: on CX via FRA on with AA via DFW. Prioritize CAT 1 and a link to Europe first before venturing to unknown territory. Fix services to a consistently good level and only then should they work outside the box.


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