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DL A332 N851NW Flying Nonstop SIN-ATL Ferry May 26  
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4973 posts, RR: 25
Posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18443 times:
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Looks like N851NW is done with the flat-bed refurbishment, and is being ferried nonstop from SIN to ATL today (Sunday 26 May). It is DL9971. Has DL ever had a nonstop SIN-ATL ferry flight on the A332 or any other type before?

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineqantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1296 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18345 times:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL9971

18h 29m



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineTriple7Lr From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18288 times:

I don't think they've ever done that flight nonstop. The last one stopped in ANC.

User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18197 times:

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 2):

I don't think they've ever done that flight nonstop. The last one stopped in ANC.

The last one was an A333, though. N801NW.


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1029 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17770 times:
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if you pull the power back enough, a number of airplanes can do SIN-ATL non-stop

User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3088 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17726 times:

Permalink

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/D...1/history/20130526/0315Z/WSSS/KATL


So how many pilots on board?



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlineLH707330 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 848 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17703 times:

The 332 has the same center tank as the 343, so when empty they can go quite far.

User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4229 posts, RR: 37
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17551 times:

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 5):
So how many pilots on board?

That is a 4 pilot operation.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlinejporterfi From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17226 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):

They are traveling at Mach .9, so it doesn't seem like they had to pull the power back for that flight. Although the fact that it is a ferry flight means that range is automatically increased from what the aircraft could do in revenue operations.


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17083 times:

I wonder if a DL employee could nonrev on that flight.


Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6350 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 16582 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):

if you pull the power back enough, a number of airplanes can do SIN-ATL non-stop

If you pull back the power enough, you will be up there forever!



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinecessna2 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 350 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 16244 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 9):
I wonder if a DL employee could nonrev on that flight.

If the Captain then Dispatch says yes...we can  


User currently onlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 15994 times:

Who else is generally onboard along with the pilots (4 in this case)?

User currently offlinetrent772 From Colombia, joined Oct 2012, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 15776 times:

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 8):
They are traveling at Mach .9

The MMO for the A330 is M0,86, they can't be doing M0,90.

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 11):
If the Captain then Dispatch says yes...we can

I thought pax can't be carried on ferry flights according to FAR's.



Pedaling Squares…
User currently offlinetyler81190 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 724 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 15720 times:

Quoting trent772 (Reply 13):
I thought pax can't be carried on ferry flights according to FAR's.

Employees arent passengers...

Also, it is an airline Ferry, not a mechanical, or special permit ferry. The aircraft is fully airworthy. Delta just didn't sell any seats.

[Edited 2013-05-26 17:15:34]

User currently offlinetrent772 From Colombia, joined Oct 2012, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 15508 times:

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 14):
Employees arent passengers...

I disagree, if I'm non-reving on a company airplane from point A to point B and I'm occupying a passenger seat, I'm a passenger, a company employee still but acting as a passenger.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 14):
it is an airline Ferry, not a mechanical, or special permit ferry. The aircraft is fully airworthy. Delta just didn't sell any seats.

I Agree.   



Pedaling Squares…
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5738 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 15320 times:

Quoting trent772 (Reply 13):
I thought pax can't be carried on ferry flights according to FAR's.

As long as the aircraft is airworthy and not on a special maintenance ferry permit, the FARs do not prohibit the carrying of revenue passengers provided there are enough flight attendants (1 for every 50 seats) and the flight is dispatched under Part 121 rules.

However, most airlines, per their FAA-approved ops-specs, allow employees to "non-rev" on Part 91 supplemental position ferries (with the captain's approval), even without flight attendants provided they are briefed on the location and operation of the emergency exits. This may or may not apply to international flights.

Quoting trent772 (Reply 15):
I disagree, if I'm non-reving on a company airplane from point A to point B and I'm occupying a passenger seat, I'm a passenger, a company employee still but acting as a passenger.

This is correct. The distinction lies in whether the passenger generates any revenue.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offline9lflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 15317 times:

Quoting trent772 (Reply 15):
I disagree, if I'm non-reving on a company airplane from point A to point B and I'm occupying a passenger seat, I'm a passenger, a company employee still but acting as a passenger.

Correct you are considered a passenger but you are taking the flight "at risk." The same rules do not apply. I can't count the times I've hitched a ride on a MX ferry to get to work as a non-rev. I've been the only one in the back many times.



My opinions do not represent the opinions of my company. They are solely the opinion of the poster.
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4229 posts, RR: 37
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 15042 times:

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 8):
They are traveling at Mach .9, so it doesn't seem like they had to pull the power back for that flight. Although the fact that it is a ferry flight means that range is automatically increased from what the aircraft could do in revenue operations.

They were likely flying on a lower cost index- probably around .83 Mach. Notice on the routing they were flying southerly to help ride better tailwinds- that is the reason for the higher groundspeed.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14461 times:
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I suspect that the plane parks over at the DL TOC and the pilots need to be shuttled over to the CBP.

User currently offlinecopa330200 From Panama, joined Jan 2011, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13185 times:

Quoting qantas744ER (Reply 1):

18h 29m

that's a loooooooooooooooooooooong fly  Wow!



On the run !!!
User currently offlinefilejw From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13142 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 19):

Just depends on what the need is or how fast the a/c is being turned.Iv done both.


User currently offlineSYDSpotter From Australia, joined Oct 2012, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12986 times:

Assuming time is not a critical issue, would it have been cheaper to break up the journey into different segments say:

SIN-NRT-LAX-ATL
SIN-HNL-ATL

It's wasting a lot of fuel to do it non-stop.



319_320_321_332_333_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2725 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12910 times:

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 22):

Assuming time is not a critical issue, would it have been cheaper to break up the journey into different segments say:

SIN-NRT-LAX-ATL
SIN-HNL-ATL

It's wasting a lot of fuel to do it non-stop.

But do you think that putting the gear down a couple times and flying a final approach, followed by taxiing, APU on the ground, engine start, taxi out, takeoff, and climbout (huge gas burning time) would save any?

Being that it was completely empty other than fuel, I doubt there was a cheaper way than to takeoff and fly to ATL nonstop. Being an A-330-200 they probably went right up to FL330-350 even with 18 hours to go.


User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12909 times:
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Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 22):
Assuming time is not a critical issue, would it have been cheaper to break up the journey into different segments say:

SIN-NRT-LAX-ATL
SIN-HNL-ATL

It's wasting a lot of fuel to do it non-stop.

Don't know what the ground costs would be... landing fees, catering costs,


25 Maverick623 : How so?
26 akelley728 : Umm, it's saving a lot of fuel to do it non-stop! Engines are most efficient at cruise. If you then descend and then take off 2x instead of just 1x,
27 Max Q : Anyway, very cool and quite an accomplishment, very curious to know how much fuel they had left in ATL.
28 airportugal310 : While I agree with the assessment that's its probably cheaper to ferry than make multiple stops, it DOES cost money to carry fuel around that won't b
29 Dreamflight767 : Somebody please post the flight plan?
30 b787900 : Just curious, do non-revenue flights like these carry any flight attendants to look after the pilots and provide safety evacuation in case there is an
31 XFSUgimpLB41X : Let's see. Instead of doing 1 landing and takeoff, would it have been cheaper to do 3 landings and takeoffs or 2 landings and takeoffs? On top of tha
32 SXDFC : Does anyone have any pictures of this bird when she was leaving or flying around in SIN ?
33 MSJYOP28Apilot : Typically, there are no FA's on Part 91 repositioning flights unless there is an operational need for FA's to be on there. FA's arent required on Par
34 SYDSpotter : Thanks, that was the question I was getting at, were the penalties for hauling around extra fuel for ULH > the additional costs of landing/take of
35 XFSUgimpLB41X : You can't be serious.... do you really think a non-stop flight burns more fuel than multiple stops with landings and climb outs? Think about the phys
36 Post contains images SYDSpotter : Yes I am being serious hence my original question If we are talking about a normal routine mission for the A330 (e.g. a 5000nm), then absolutely, non
37 phunc : Surely this has more to do with the yield of revenue from the ticket price? If those flights stopped enroute, the yield would reduce even more becaus
38 modesto2 : As others have mentioned, employees could theoretically non-rev on the flight with CA approval. I once non-revved on a 777 being repositioned from ATL
39 clydenairways : This major difference here is that on a ferry flight, no payload is being carried, just fuel. So you can't compare this operation with ULH economics.
40 Post contains images N821NW : You simply can't compare a revenue flight to a ferry flight, the first one has (or should) a bunch of extra weight because of all the cargo (luggage
41 speedygonzales : Didn't QF do an A330-200 delivery flight nonstop TLS-MEL once?
42 TWAL1011727 : This flight left SIN with 239500 lbs and arrived ATL with 20300 lbs KD
43 XFSUgimpLB41X : Doing it non stop saved many hours of travel time on top of what you suggested, and adding in the extra landings and takeoffs would have burned proba
44 N821NW : Very interesting info, could somebody please tell me for how long they could have with the remaining fuel in the tanks?
45 BigSaabowski : 2 hours at cruise power setting at their (very light) landing weight.
46 Post contains links PITrules : Planes use more fuel per mile on ULH flights than on shorter flights, whether there is payload or not. Airplanes burn additional fuel just to tanker f
47 airportugal310 : Agreed. I spend a lot of time figuring this out for my airline and it's not as "cut and dry" as a lot of people are making it out to be. Nice summary
48 Viscount724 : No.
49 Post contains links 71Zulu : Not sure, but here is a HA 332 delivery, TLS-HNL non-stop with 5 pilots. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...A/history/20100529/0710Z/LFBO/PHNL Th
50 b787900 : Thank you for clarifying.
51 XFSUgimpLB41X : Stopping, refueling back up again with reserves for the extra leg, taking off, and climbing out again would have easily burned 50,000 additional poun
52 airportugal310 : That's ridiculous. If anyone out there is burning 3.5 hours of fuel during one approach, 2 taxis, and a takeoff...it's time to get new engines.
53 XFSUgimpLB41X : I'm not particularly familiar with the fuel burn/hr of the 330, but the simple fact is that stopping and refueling and climbing back up again would b
54 Post contains links PITrules : An A-330 will burn 5400-7000 kg during its climb depending on gross weight at ISA. http://crew.rj.com/circulars/Cockpit..._RJA_TF_F_EU__20130312_PER_
55 XFSUgimpLB41X : Thanks, PIT. I'd be interested to see the burn difference with a stop and without a stop. Obviously, without stopping they were able to take a more wi
56 cf6ppe : I started this reply several replies before it got the the thread. Interestingly, I got the following from the Great Circle Mapper Base Distance: SIN
57 Max Q : It's really not that complicated. This was a ferry flight returning the Aircraft back into revenue service after maintenance, it's important to do tha
58 XFSUgimpLB41X : Bingo- nonstop saved a bunch of time and got it done with a minimum of crew. I'm interested to see how much more (or as some here say, less) fuel wou
59 MD-90 : I doubt that the cost delta between a nonstop versus one stop for this flight was very much and operationally the quicker nonstop flight was obviously
60 airportugal310 : Thanks. Learned a thing from your example I actually agree with both of you that it was *probably* a timing thing...get her back home. Though of cour
61 RWA380 : So does this qualify as any type of record for the type? Or is this HA example a longer distance or a longer journey time?
62 pusserchef : Yes QANTAS did fly non-stop from TLS-MEL; Taken from the Airbus website..... 09 Jan 2003 Qantas has made the longest flight ever by an Airbus A330-20
63 Max Q : Did this ferry flight have auxiliary tanks ?
64 JohnClipper : They probably carried some revenue cargo. DL mx flight x/China routinely carry paying cargo back to the U.S. The plane is empty so why not make some $
65 Braniff747SP : I'm far from an ops expert, but I have a feeling that the flight empty was already pushing the envelope for the A332, let alone the extra weight of c
66 audidudi : Well the aircraft has been in ATL since arriving on May 26; so DL doesn't seem to be in too much of a hurry to get it back flying revenue flights! I
67 airtran737 : CBP in ATL also comes to to the Delta TOC, North Cargo and South Cargo for US operators. I highly doubt the crew went the terminal.
68 PSU.DTW.SCE : I'm not an expert in this area, but I believe that the aircraft needs to go through a number of certification checks before it can be returned to serv
69 thenoflyzone : I'm pretty sure DL can factor in all the expenses required for a multiple stop journey. If they decided to do this leg non stop, chances are it's che
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