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Swiss 773 Will Have 3-4-3 Seat Config...Bad Move?  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 16056 times:

According to Swiss CEO Harry Hohmeister the new 777 300ER will have the unpopular seat config of 3-4-3 in Economy, a decision that is not "final" yet, but is the "most likely" according to him.

The First Class section will have a 1-2-1 config.

Is this a disappointing move for the Swiss customers ?

People commenting this news in the media are talking about a "step back" for Swiss....


http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...to-join-b777-300er-ten-across-club

Rgds.
G.


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
92 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2184 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 15939 times:

And let the "3-4-3" bashing begin...  


Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3117 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 15926 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):

Is this a disappointing move for the Swiss customers

I think It is a loss for the customer, no matter which airline chooses this seating layout. Alas, there are few carriers that are still opting for the 9 abreast vs 10 abreast. Stock holders and bean counters are the only winners.



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 15911 times:

Reported here:

Boeing Confirms SWISS' 777 Order (by NYC777 May 23 2013 in Civil Aviation)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3117 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 15777 times:

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 1):
And let the "3-4-3" bashing begin

I do not think there will be many proponents of 3-4-3, that will make comments, but I am sure there will be some.



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 15740 times:

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 1):
And let the "3-4-3" bashing begin...

Perhaps because some people find it rather uncomfortable.    I do, I'm not particularly tall or overweight, but I do have broad shoulders and dislike rubbing shoulders with the person next to me for hours on end. I like Swiss, but this would put me off flying with them on the 77W aircraft when I can fly another airline for broadly the same price and have greater comfort.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10702 posts, RR: 31
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 15676 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
Perhaps because some people find it rather uncomfortable.

Perhaps.

Aviation enthusiasts like people here on a.net probably notice the difference but last week I asked my boss (he travels a lot in Y but is no aviation enthusiast at all) if he ever noticed some difference between the seats on the A330, 747 and 777 and he hasn't.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1524 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 15643 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
Perhaps because some people find it rather uncomfortable.    I do, I'm not particularly tall or overweight, but I do have broad shoulders and dislike rubbing shoulders with the person next to me for hours on end.

I was always under the impression the seats are the same width, its just the aisle that are narrower, is this not correct?


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 15470 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 7):
I was always under the impression the seats are the same width, its just the aisle that are narrower, is this not correct?

Depends on the carrier - some are narrower, some have narrower arm rests, and all have narrower aisles. The result is the same - less personal space, be it the person next to you, the cabin wall or the aisle.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
Aviation enthusiasts like people here on a.net probably notice the difference but last week I asked my boss (he travels a lot in Y but is no aviation enthusiast at all) if he ever noticed some difference between the seats on the A330, 747 and 777 and he hasn't.

Many people (ordinary travelers) do notice the difference when it comes to be cramped. If you are of a very small frame then there will be nothing to notice.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 15373 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):
Alas, there are few carriers that are still opting for the 9 abreast vs 10 abreast. Stock holders and bean counters are the only winners.

Two exceptions in recent times are TG and GA. Both specified 3-3-3 Y class seating in their B777-300ERs.


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4001 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 15331 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):
I think It is a loss for the customer, no matter which airline chooses this seating layout. Alas, there are few carriers that are still opting for the 9 abreast vs 10 abreast. Stock holders and bean counters are the only winners.

That is only half of the story. The other half is that more seats let airlines sell more cheaper tickets, and that is exactly what most customers want. A minority of economy class customers is willing to pay for comfort, and that is why premium economy is taking hold.


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4750 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 15334 times:

I have flown now 3 sectors on EKs B77Ws in Y class DXB-LOS-DXB and I dont find any problem what so ever with the comfort level of their seats nor their leg room.

User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 15332 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
Aviation enthusiasts like people here on a.net probably notice the difference but last week I asked my boss (he travels a lot in Y but is no aviation enthusiast at all) if he ever noticed some difference between the seats on the A330, 747 and 777 and he hasn't.

There are many people that do...

My mum is not a regular long haul flyer, but has been lucky enough in recent months to go on two long haul holidays to India and Kenya.

Flew Air Kenya from London in the 3-3-3 config and was full of praise of them, except for a rather lengthy delay coming home, last month went on a tour of India and took Jet Airways77W in the 3-4-3 config London to Mumbai...

I was the lucky one to pick her up from LHR (sarcasm), and all I had for the 1.5hr drive home was how the seats were so narrow and had the most unfortable journey of her life! My mum is tiny at about 5ft2 and around 55-60kg. She said the seats with Ryanair and easyJet were wider and more comfy.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7081 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 15329 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 8):
If you are of a very small frame then there will be nothing to notice.

except if the people on either side of you are of a larger size...



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 15158 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 13):
except if the people on either side of you are of a larger size...

True!


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17339 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 15110 times:

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 1):
And let the "3-4-3" bashing begin...

It's not even a choice at this point--it's becoming the standard.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 9):

Two exceptions in recent times are TG and GA. Both specified 3-3-3 Y class seating in their B777-300ERs.

I don't know what either were thinking but if there are any airlines in the world that must have high denisty seating on their widebodies, it's TG and GA. If everyone else is using high density aircraft to serve Thailand and Indonesia, I don't know where TG/GA think they're going to drive a premium.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCarfield From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1886 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 15109 times:

Ten abreast seating - just wonder if Swiss have routes that can support a heavy load year round. Zurich is a hub, but not sure if it is really that popular.

Anyway, I am curious if Swiss will compensate the ten abreast seating with more generous seat pitch 32-34 inches like Emirates and Qatar or is it going "Air Canada" or "AA" track featuring 31 inches of legroom.

IMHO I think full service airlines need to differentiate themselves from LCC and charter airlines, so I hope Swiss will have at least 32 inches of legroom, or else, more passengers will flock to the Middle East Airlines, with Emirates using A380s on the Zurich flights next year.

With the ten abreast sitting in 777s (9 abreast on 787 and A350), flying a 757 across the Atlantic Ocean no longer sounds too bad.

Carfield


User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1620 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 14948 times:

Although I certainly don't look forward to travel in such configuration, lets not forget that Swissair also had a high reputation and followed the trend when seating configurations went from 9 to 10 and 8 to 9 with the B747 and DC-10 respectively. Swiss qualities compared to other airlines are not limited to the number of seats in each abreast.


KEEP LOOKING UP as in Space Fan News
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 875 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 14916 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 10):

That is only half of the story. The other half is that more seats let airlines sell more cheaper tickets, and that is exactly what most customers want. A minority of economy class customers is willing to pay for comfort, and that is why premium economy is taking hold.

Segmenting your markets is almost always good and is basic business really. Airlines have figured out that there are people who are wholly price sensitive, even if it is a few bucks and there are people that will pay a reasonable premium to have a bit more space. They make more money by cramming more of the first group in a given space and selling marked up tickets to the second group to get more comfortable seats.

This is done in every industry in some fashion.


User currently offlineHECA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14831 times:
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Quoting LondonCity (Reply 9):
Two exceptions in recent times are TG and GA. Both specified 3-3-3 Y class seating in their B777-300ERs.

MS offers 3-3-3 Y class seating as well.


User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 14566 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
I don't know what either were thinking but if there are any airlines in the world that must have high denisty seating on their widebodies, it's TG and GA.

I was referring to these two airlines because they have either recently introduced B777-300ERs into their fleets (as with TG) or will introduce this plane later in the year (GA). GA will be using the B777-300ER to operate LGW-Jakarta-SYD. Thank goodness it has retained 9-across seating as this is a really long route.


User currently offlineairbuster From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 441 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 14535 times:

3-4-3 is the future, if we like it or not. Ofcourse I'd love to see a 2-2-2 config in economy on the 777 but the trend is set and more and more companies are going to order 3-4-3. And in a couple years time some genious will come up with 3-5-3!

I'll just settle with my sheepskin seat in the front!

Blue skys!



FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10645 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 14440 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Swiss 773 Will Have 3-4-3 Seat Config...Bad Move? 

Man, I love those rhetoric questions.
Bad move for sure, unless you are a kid or a slim dwarf.

There goes Swiss reputation as a premium airline...


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 14442 times:

Quoting airbuster (Reply 21):
3-4-3 is the future, if we like it or not

Well, for some perhaps. I will chose an alternate option, for which I do not mind paying a moderate premium.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 14413 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 12):

Flew Air Kenya from London in the 3-3-3 config and was full of praise of them, except for a rather lengthy delay coming home, last month went on a tour of India and took Jet Airways77W in the 3-4-3 config London to Mumbai...

Are you sure the Jet 9W was 3-4-3? They had announced plans to make them 3-4-3, but Seat Guru, Seat Expert, and Jet's own website seat maps all show them as 3-3-3 still.


25 runway23 : It's not really surprising to see LX go for 3-4-3. Beyond what most people believe about Swiss quality, LX has recently gone for high density seating
26 mbm3 : Like it or not, it is my opinion that 10 abreast seating is the future standard of economy class seating for long haul aircraft. And for people with w
27 queb : In 2012, 75% of all 777 deliveries were 10 abreast
28 longhauler : And that is it exactly! If an airline were able to garner a higher fare with few/more comfortable seats, then it would happen. But the Customer has s
29 kaitak : At the risk of being accused of "stating the bleeding obvious" (!), the 77W is a long aircraft; just to take EK as an example, it has about 33 rows of
30 rwy04lga : Delta has 3-3-3 in it's 777s. Although, I haven't sat in the back yet.
31 AT : For me, legroom and recline are more important than pitch. I would take a 10 abreast 777 with decent legroom (e.g., Emirates) than a 9 abreast with 31
32 kaitak : I think that's actually a very good idea; I think it would actually be a good idea for an airline looking to dip its toe into the long haul lo-co mar
33 mercure1 : 10-across seems to be the logical move these days. As eluded to by others, the ability to add single seat per row can amount to 30 something extra sea
34 waly777 : Definitely not a bad move, they are keeping up with the times. The highest ranking factor (from numerous numerous surveys) for Y is price. With the ev
35 waly777 : Precisely!
36 Post contains images faro : Ten years from now, *everyone* will be flying 10 abreast in Y, *everyone*. Faro
37 MAS777 : It amazes me that as airline enthusiasts, many here seem to have just resigned to the fact that 3-4-3 should be the expected and the 'norm' - despite
38 waly777 : Ah but it is either 3-4-3 or 3-3-3 with much more expensive fares and airlines cannot afford to out price themselves out of the market as their compe
39 EddieDude : Actually some other thread has a reference to that in the context of future A380 layouts! Argh!
40 Viscount724 : No, you can't generate enough space for an additional seat by only shrinking the aisle width. Even if the seat cushion is close to the same width, th
41 sankaps : Finnair had this on their MD11s... the front section of economy was 3-4-2, and the rear 3-4-3. Both sold as "economy", no differentiation in marketin
42 Post contains images PlymSpotter : You are forgetting that there is another option: fly an airline operating the A330/340 family, or 747/767. That is my choice. Dan
43 motorhussy : So Swiss will have 3-4-3. I'm sure, being Swiss, that it will have a relaxing cabin decor and layout, decent legroom, a good ratio of wc's to pax, exc
44 AT : But is it just a simple addition in most cases? I recall Emirates being very emphatic that while the 777s were gong to be 10 abreast, the legroom was
45 aerokiwi : Well there goes their yield then. And can you actually point to a case of a 10-abreast 77W airline charging less than a 9-abreast 77W airline? The on
46 BLRAviation : Amen. I am heavy and need 18.5" or higher for long distance. I can do the 17" of a 737 for 2.5~3 hours max. I cannot afford J, but probably can a lit
47 incitatus : Read again. I did not say cheaper tickets. I said more cheaper tickets. An airline with a more dense cabin can have more of its seats go for the lowe
48 ChazPilot : As mentioned many times already - this will become the norm on almost all airlines sooner rather than later. Even the traditionalists like CX will fol
49 intermodal64 : So true! I prefer a normal-density narrow-body over a high-density wide-body. Wide bodies were great when they meant more personal space. Without tha
50 gasman : Well, since NZ went 3-4-3 on their 77Ws, they have lost me. I estimate that over three years about $50,000 of my cash has been diverted to SQ or EK b
51 OB1504 : This is exactly what American Airlines has elected to do in configuring their 777-300ER fleet. The first four rows of the economy class cabin feature
52 spacecadet : No, because people will just pay less, because they're getting less value. That's why it's called a "race to the bottom".
53 sweair : 175 seats on a 752 is quite comfortable TATL. But the end is near as we have no replacement even being developed. 300 seats on the 788 will be the rep
54 carpethead : Standard is many places outside of east Asia. Because most of these Asian carriers' 777s are 9-abreast and they know who their competition is/are. As
55 FFlyerCDG : Surprisingly nobody mentioned BA... Am I wrong or they have a 3-3-3 Y on all their 773 and 772 ?
56 aerokiwi : Can you point to an example? And effectively you're conceding that they have to be cheaper to attract the passengers... revenue management is pretty
57 phunc : According to the Boeing website,the cabin width for the 747-400 is 20 ft wide and the cabin width for the 777 is 19.3ft 3 inches. 747's have been flyi
58 waly777 : They do indeed have 3-3-3 on the 777. Though so will their new 787's which would offer the same comfort as 3-4-3 on a 777. When they do get the 777X,
59 BLRAviation : But even EK operates 3-4-3 on all their 777s. Just did SQ SIN-DME-IAH and return. Without a doubt one of the best economy class. QR also has very wid
60 sankaps : Not QR's 787s though, which are 9-abreast. It may well signal that the days of 9-abreast 777s are numbered for QR.
61 cv990coronado : After two long flights on QR 777's with the 45 degrees armrests and noisy cabin, never again. The cabin service is excellent but with those seats and
62 RWA380 : Your point is valid. I was definitely coming from the viewpoint of someone who pays F domestic and J internationally. I may not get to fly as much as
63 SIA747Megatop : What do you mean by this?
64 Post contains links LondonCity : The seatplans on all these websites (including Jet's own website) have not been updated to the new 3-4-3 layout. But in this Jet 9W flight check, the
65 Post contains images sankaps : Thanks, indeed it does. And a sad reflection on Jet that they have not got around to updating their own website with the latest seat maps.
66 AyostoLeon : Airline fares can be quite complicated and depending which booking engine you use the results can vary from minute to minute, let alone day to day. O
67 Post contains images factsonly : This is exactly why A.net is so.......entertaining. Mum clearly is an expert at judging B77W seat comfort, especially the horrible 3-4-3 seating on J
68 SIA747Megatop : I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. LondonCity posted a link in reply 64 to a trip report that shows photos of the cabin in 3-4-3 arrangem
69 Post contains links LondonCity : It seems that Jet 9W started to reconfigure its B777-300ERs last August, according to Bangalore Aviation website. Apparently the number of seats was
70 KarelXWB : Correct, the aisles are narrower in 3-4-3.
71 longhauler : Actually, it's the other way around. People wont pay less, as much as they will always buy the cheapest fare. That is what the passenger wants "The C
72 aerokiwi : I think NZ does too - correct me if wrong. But yes, very frustrating. Never been through DOH but AUH... ooosh! Best avoided in my experience. Totally
73 longhauler : And so would I, in fact so would just about anyone on Airliners.net. When I was a young lad living in Canada, but attending High School in Switzerlan
74 AyostoLeon : Are you sure. Despite the fact that many members of Airliners.net are happy to fly with Ryan Air and other so-called low cost carriers? Some undoubte
75 sankaps : DOH airport, other than the fact it does not have aerobridges, is not bad really. The premium terminal is very nice, and even the regular terminal is
76 AyostoLeon : Just shows you how successful EK have been. But I do agree that unless there is a decent period to connect it can be a bit worrisome. With increasing
77 Viscount724 : SR switched to 9-abreast on the DC-10s at some point. AC's L-1011s were also 8-abreast originally weren't they?
78 Viscount724 : Yes, the difference is very noticeable.
79 flylku : How tall and broad are you? I am an athletic 6'3" and 220lbs (a bit less than 2 meters and 100 kg) and UAs 3-3-3 in Econ Plus on the 777 is the minim
80 CF-CPI : Yes.
81 longhauler : Yes, but at this time, which was late 1970s to early 1980s, all of AC's L1011s had been converted to 9 abreast, and SR's DC-10s were still 8 abreast.
82 Viscount724 : Per a Flight International article dated January 1984, Swissair changed from 8 to 9-abreast on DC-10s, and from 9 to 10-abreast on 747s, in March 198
83 BLRAviation : Very true on the 787s, and I can only hope not for their 777s. Otherwise what will be the differentiator for them in the battle with EK and EY? QR wi
84 Post contains images SIA747Megatop : Oops I misread, thanks for the clarification. I had experienced the same on QR, seems rather pointless IMO.
85 trex8 : You do realize that all the latest 3 class EY 77W have 3-4-3?
86 incitatus : For personal travel, the vast majority of people will have price as the main factor. They may not pick the absolutely lowest fare but any difference
87 gasman : You didn't consider shelling out for the $250 yourself?
88 motorhussy : I guess this is to make for a more compelling case for their SkyCouch, SnuggleSeat whatever you want to call it. A couple flying together can know th
89 aerokiwi : Sure. Which is why margins for high-cost carriers are so pathetic. It's not just me calling them "least value".
90 b2319 : Let's be very brutal: The 'step back' for Swiss occurred a very long time ago. It was when Swiss International Airlines first flew, after Swissair, p
91 YTZ : Swiss seems determined to lose its premium rep. Just see the planned 125 seat layout for the CS100.
92 Post contains images Pe@rson : £1.50 doesn't count. From my experience as a passenger, I'm not particularly fussed if it's 3-4-3 or better.
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