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Japan Awards 7 Countries Daytime Haneda Slots  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25745 posts, RR: 50
Posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 20212 times:

Starting IATA summer 2014 scheduling season, Japan is expanding the number of slots available for international operations at Tokyo Haneda airport including opening up daytime slots between 0600-2300 hours.

Accordingly the Japanese Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (MLIT) has awarded 7 nations such coveted day time slots at the airports.

The awardees and number of weekly slots are:

China - 28 (can only be used to PVG and CAN - 14 each)
France - 14
Germany - 14
Singapore - 14
Thailand - 7
United Kingdom - 14 (VS has already said it will move its NRT service to HND)
Vietnam - 7

In addition there will be expansion of night slots at HND benefiting counties including Australia, New Zealand, Turkey amongst others.

Lastly, I understand talks are still ongoing with some nations including the US on daytime slots, so I suspect they might announce another nation or two before the IATA schedule conference in November when things must be finalized for next summer.

Sorry I don't have a online link, simply a governmental memo I received.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 19853 times:
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Where are the North American slots ? Not on that Euro and Asian centric list.

User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 652 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 19453 times:

Interesting. So the next round of HND slot distribution is coming. There will be 20 daily slot pairs distributed to foreign carriers this time (equivalent to 30000 slots that has been talked to be available from 2014) of which your list shows 14 of them. All 6 might go US carriers.

But according to this link, 28 weekly (4 daily) to China is already available from last Match and 14 (2 daily) will be added in 2014. Why no one took additional slots this year yet?
http://airlineroute.net/2012/08/09/jpcn/
http://centreforaviation.com/news/ja...eral-air-services-agreement-168722

Currently, out of 40 daytime slots planned, only 32 are used (12 GMP, 8 TSA, 4 HKG, 4 PEK, 4 SHA). And from March 2013, all 8 (4 each to Chinese and Japanese carriers) were allocated to China although no one took them. So I guess, out of additional 2014 slots, 2 daily slots will go Chinese carriers. Then, 8 are left unallocated.

Thanks for sharing your info.


User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 799 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 19076 times:

Wow, two dailies for France, Germany and the UK.

One could definitely see AF, LH and BA completely abandon NRT in favor of HND. Connecting opportunities for domestic flights are much better at HND anyways (for LH and BA at least).

I wonder what the hold up is with US flights, perhaps Japan wants some NRT slots or beyond rights from US carriers in exchange for more HND access?


User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1605 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 18842 times:

Yes does this mean someone like AF will give up and NRT completely?
If they manage 2 daily slots at HND, I see no point to remain in distant NRT. HND so much convenient and also better for domestic connections.
Can HND handle A380?


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25745 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 18695 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
Where are the North American slots ? Not on that Euro and Asian centric list.

Well Canada certainly wont get any since they dont even use their night time allocation. The US might end up with a pair, but time will tell.

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 2):
Why no one took additional slots this year yet?

Remember there have been quite a bit of tensions between China and Japan over the winter that caused significant flight reductions. I doubt airlines were enthused to start new services against such back drop.

Quoting SR117 (Reply 3):
I wonder what the hold up is with US flights, perhaps Japan wants some NRT slots or beyond rights from US carriers in exchange for more HND access?

I don't think its much a hold up. US side was always promised additional HND access. Whether this comes in 2014 with or without day time flights, Japan needs to juggle the high demand for the slots amongst all its trade partners. At the end Japan will do what it believes is best for it and Japanese airlines which receive equivalent frequencies.

Personally I think the US will gain 2 day time, and 2 night time slots in 2014, but that is just my guess. Obviously the daytime slots will be quite a bit more attractive for the US airlines.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 4):
Yes does this mean someone like AF will give up and NRT completely?

Could be. For example VS has said it will move its Tokyo ops to HND from NRT.

With enough slots at HND, the question be asked indeed if companies like AF, LH, BA etc still need their NRT flights?



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinetrent1000 From Japan, joined Jan 2007, 572 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18417 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
night slots at HND benefiting counties including Australia, New Zealand, Turkey amongst others.

How do whole countries benefit?
Airports benefit from fees and service revenue. Airlines benefit from passenger and freight revenue.
Passengers possibly benefit from schedules. But arriving or departing Japan between 11 pm and 6 a.m. on a 10-hour flight from/to Sydney or 11 1/2 from Istanbul is not beneficial. By the time passengers are ready to get to or leave the terminal, public transport options are minimal. From Haneda terminal, last departure for Tokyo:
Monorail 0:10am, Keikyu Railways 0:01, Limousine bus 0:30. Subway lines in Tokyo stop around midnight..
Taxis 4000 - 10000yen.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7619 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 18173 times:

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 6):
How do whole countries benefit?

Currently I believe there are no flights between any Australian, New Zealand or Turkish airports and HND. So these countries will have the same benefit that the likes of the UK and France had when the Japanese authorities allowed their airlines to operate night time flights to HND for the first time back in 2011, the opportunity to operate into HND and not just NRT.

The allocation of night time slots to these countries - not airlines or passengers - raises a question in my mind. Taking the UK as an example, they currently have an allocation of a single night-time slot pair at HND. After these changes will they have an allocation of one night-time and two day-time slot pairs or just two day-time slot pairs?

The current UK airline situation at TYO is one night-time slot pair operated by BA at HND and one slot pair operated by BA, another by VS at NRT. So if BA are allowed to retain their night-time HND slots both airlines could theoretically operate all their current TYO services into HND.

And what about JL and NH? Will they be allowed to move their equivalent services from NRT to HND when the expansion of the International Terminal is completed next year? Or will they still operate international flights out of NRT?


User currently offlinedelta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 622 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 17744 times:

As more slots are opened up at HND, will we see something similar to the LGW/LHR situation? Are airlines that much more enamored with HND over NRT? Will these new slots hurt NRT or is there enough traffic to go around?


From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 17722 times:
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For American Carriers it probably wouldn't do much for Delta or United with their beyond flights to Asia. AA, which terminates most of their flights in NRT, could benefit by using Haneda with day light schedules.

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 17657 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 7):
Currently I believe there are no flights between any Australian, New Zealand or Turkish airports and HND

   Though I doubt we'll see QF or NZ at HND any time soon. TK could be interesting though.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 8):
As more slots are opened up at HND, will we see something similar to the LGW/LHR situation? Are airlines that much more enamored with HND over NRT?

We're more likely to see it develop into a JFK/EWR(/LGA) situation, where the different airports serve different parts of the same market (which was the case for years before they started opening HND up) rather than one being immensely more desireable than the other (as is the case for LHR/LGW). NRT will never been seen in the same light as LGW is compared to LHR.


User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1934 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 17289 times:

Maybe a stupid question, but there is an obvious exodus occurring at NRT. Is there enough expansion potential at HND, it could make NRT obsolete? I am comparing this to a situation like Montreal where Mirabel was suppose to make Dorval a regional airport only, but in the end, the opposite happened, or does NRT just have too much traffic that this would never happen. How about a scenario where NRT becomes a cargo only airport with limited intra Japan traffic only? Is this all conceivable?

User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5736 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 17204 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 10):
I doubt we'll see QF

I wouldn't be so sure. Even if Aus only gets "overnight rights" then QF cut shift their existing NRT flight over to HND and have it arrive slightly earlier and leave slightly later. That way they better serve the corporate market, and allow better domestic connectivity to JL. JQ won't budge anywhere, though.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 10):
We're more likely to see it develop into a JFK/EWR(/LGA) situation, where the different airports serve different parts of the same market (which was the case for years before they started opening HND up) rather than one being immensely more desireable than the other

I agree. While HND is more preferable for downtown Tokyo and will therefore take the lions share of the corporate traffic (a la JFK), NRT will have a place just as EWR has. TYO is a HUGE metro, both in terms of population and area.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 11):
Is this all conceivable?

I don't think so, see above



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25745 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16953 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 7):
Currently I believe there are no flights between any Australian, New Zealand or Turkish airports and HND. So these countries will have the same benefit that the likes of the UK and France had when the Japanese authorities allowed their airlines to operate night time flights to HND for the first time back in 2011, the opportunity to operate into HND and not just NRT.

  

Quoting VV701 (Reply 7):
After these changes will they have an allocation of one night-time and two day-time slot pairs or just two day-time slot pairs?

I've not heard of any loss of slots. The daytime allocation should be in addition to the current nighttime ones.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 7):
And what about JL and NH? Will they be allowed to move their equivalent services from NRT to HND when the expansion of the International Terminal is completed next year? Or will they still operate international flights out of NRT?

Japanese carriers will receive the equivalent allocation to each country. I'm sure one of the reasoning for the country allocations by MLIT is being mindful of what folks like ANA and JAL desire to fly themselves.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
For American Carriers it probably wouldn't do much for Delta or United with their beyond flights to Asia. AA, which terminates most of their flights in NRT, could benefit by using Haneda with day light schedules.

Certainly did not stop DL from asking for a all 4 available Haneda allocations from the DOT.

For AA and UA they have their JV partners to keep in mind as well. I'm sure in many way operating daytime flights at HND would be quite beneficial for their customers and partners.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13258 posts, RR: 100
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 15917 times:
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This is exciting. For decades I wanted NRT to be opened up as a proper hub. I'm in a way getting my wish, just at HND. Tokyo is a natural nexus of transportation across the Pacific.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
Japanese carriers will receive the equivalent allocation to each country. I'm sure one of the reasoning for the country allocations by MLIT is being mindful of what folks like ANA and JAL desire to fly themselves.

I'll flat out by a cynic and state that is the only reason this is happening. But that is the nature of bilaterals (not just air service rights), they are a trade where both sides want something. But by both sides ending up at the table, both benefit.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1849 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 15745 times:

Quoting SR117 (Reply 3):
Wow, two dailies for France, Germany and the UK.

One could definitely see AF, LH and BA completely abandon NRT in favor of HND.
Quoting mercure1 (Reply 4):
Yes does this mean someone like AF will give up and NRT completely?
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
With enough slots at HND, the question be asked indeed if companies like AF, LH, BA etc still need their NRT flights?

Regarding France flights, yes AF could completely move its operations to HND. But keep in mind the SB flight NRT-NOU connecting to AF service to CDG. Many many pax are connecting between those flights. If AF moves to HND, SB needs to move also, so it will count in the 2 daily slots granted for France (if New Caledonia is indeed included in the France slots deal).


User currently offlineUAEflyer From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2006, 1119 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 15627 times:

Surprised that UAE where EK & EY wasnt in that list. Although i knew from insider that EK requested morning arrival into HND, they get no response.

User currently offlinesurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2887 posts, RR: 31
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 15369 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):

Starting IATA summer 2014 scheduling season, Japan is expanding the number of slots available for international operations at Tokyo Haneda airport including opening up daytime slots between 0600-2300 hours.

Accordingly the Japanese Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (MLIT) has awarded 7 nations such coveted day time slots at the airports.

Let the exodus of premier long haul carriers from NRT begin! It seems cuts made at NRT as a result of new HND flights, like AA's JFK-NRT and JL's NRT-SFO, have freed up slots to allow entry of new carriers (i.e. the Persian Gulf trio) and LCC expansion from NRT. Very exciting times ahead for both HND and NRT, with global ramifications  .

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 2):
Currently, out of 40 daytime slots planned, only 32 are used (12 GMP, 8 TSA, 4 HKG, 4 PEK, 4 SHA). And from March 2013, all 8 (4 each to Chinese and Japanese carriers) were allocated to China although no one took them. So I guess, out of additional 2014 slots, 2 daily slots will go Chinese carriers. Then, 8 are left unallocated.

Thank you for this list. I was wondering what the existing daytime international services from HND were. Services to HKG and PEK feed into major global aviation hubs, whilst GMP, SHA, and TSA are great for local O&D pax (or those connecting to domestic flights within South Korea, China, or Taiwan respectively), but highly inconvenient for those trying to connect to long haul international flights out of ICN, PVG, and TPE. I wonder if CA and CX are getting a huge advantage from the current arrangement since they can feed their long haul international hubs with much more convenient daytime HND flights whilst competitors cannot?

Now MU will have the ability to serve its PVG hub, leveling the playing field with CA/CX if it so chooses. KE and OZ already serve ICN from HND, but can only do so at night. All service to Taiwan from HND must use TSA, likely putting BR and CI at an extreme disadvantage since they can't serve their TPE hubs at all. I wouldn't be surprised to see Taiwan at least get nighttime HND slots for TPE service, and I'm sure the Korean carriers are dying to get some daytime slots for ICN. Will be interesting to see if South Korea and/or Taiwan get any additional HND slots. I'm sure the relevant negotiations are complicated/overshadowed by the whole China/Taiwan recognition issue, Senkaku Islands dispute, Liancourt Rocks dispute, Yasukuni Shrine controversy, etc.

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 2):
Interesting. So the next round of HND slot distribution is coming. There will be 20 daily slot pairs distributed to foreign carriers this time (equivalent to 30000 slots that has been talked to be available from 2014) of which your list shows 14 of them. All 6 might go US carriers.

Yes, it has been known for quite some time that daytime HND slots would be coming available for long haul operators. It is widely speculated that foreign intercontinental carriers (i.e. AA, BA, DL) have been taking losses with the current ill-timed HND slots to appease the Japanese and get much more viable daytime slots as soon as possible. I daresay this strategy has worked, although I highly doubt the U.S. will get all 6 of the remaining daytime slots. The U.S. already has a controversially large number of NRT slots and probably wouldn't even give up any of its nighttime HND slots (as most other countries probably will), which actually are viable for service to Hawaii and I believe Guam as well.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The awardees and number of weekly slots are:

China - 28 (can only be used to PVG and CAN - 14 each)
France - 14
Germany - 14
Singapore - 14
Thailand - 7
United Kingdom - 14 (VS has already said it will move its NRT service to HND)
Vietnam - 7

Very, very interesting. China is the big winner so far, and the slots are probably earmarked for CZ and MU, which maintain excellent guan xi with the powers that be - second only to perennial government favorite CA. Sadly, this is probably meant to ensure that an airline like HU will not be able to get something as precious as daytime HND slots.

The big 3 E.U. nations get tons of daytime access to HND, but smaller nations like Finland and the Netherlands - whose national carriers are extremely dedicated to the Japanese market - are still stuck with NRT. Even Italy should get credit (ahem, HND slots) for all the service to Japan that AZ offers. It'd be like the British government letting Japanese and Chinese airlines serve LHR, but forcing Korean carriers to use LGW.

Then there's Southeast Asia. Singapore and Thailand aren't surprising, and I'm sure SQ would love to route the SIN-LAX A380 via HND rather than NRT (highly unlikely, but you never know). Vietnam is absolutely shocking though. I might expect an existing HND partner like Indonesia or Malaysia to get daytime HND access, and then a nation like the Philippines or Vietnam to get nighttime HND access. I wonder how on earth Vietnam went from no HND access to a highly coveted daily daytime slot off the bat?

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
In addition there will be expansion of night slots at HND benefiting counties including Australia, New Zealand, Turkey amongst others.

Will any Australian or New Zealand carriers even want the nighttime slots? A la EK, TK and its pax might not mind the funky times so much (I'll never forget catching a TK flight out of BAH around 2 AM, arriving into IST at about 6 AM), but the Aussies and Kiwis might be even less accepting of the terrible times than Americans!

As for other countries getting new access to HND, the Philippines is the only major Pacific Rim country whose carriers still can't serve HND. Russia is another major neighbor with, as far as I know, no access to HND either. Perhaps India would be interested in some nighttime slots - Indians are highly accustomed to middle of the night flights.

I wonder if any of the new night slots will go to countries that already have HND access. As I mentioned earlier, Taiwan will be at a huge disadvantage if its airlines still can't serve TPE at all (whilst additional Chinese and Southeast Asian carriers will be able to serve their major global hubs nonstop, during the daytime). The Koreans may want some of their LCCs to get a piece of the HND pie, even if it is at night. The Americans could probably easily use all 4 nighttime slots for service to Hawaii, Guam, Saipan, etc. and then some (assuming existing nighttime mainland flights get transferred to more viable daytime hours).

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Lastly, I understand talks are still ongoing with some nations including the US on daytime slots, so I suspect they might announce another nation or two before the IATA schedule conference in November when things must be finalized for next summer.

I believe the negotiations between the U.S. and Japan were the last to conclude when HND initially opened to long haul service. It seems like AA and DL began their HND flights with the intention of shifting the services to daytime hours in due course, and as expected none of the mainland U.S.-HND services operated by U.S. carriers are viable with the nighttime slots. I would assume the U.S. is trying to get at least 4 daytime slots - presumably to provide the incumbents to get the slots they have been expecting. HA doesn't seem to mind the times, but even they may want to offer an earlier arrival into Tokyo and subsequently an earlier departure back to Honolulu (akin to the traditional HNL-NRT schedules). In any case, I'm sure we can expect the U.S. to get at least a couple of daytime HND slots, and an exciting bidding process thereafter between incumbent route shifts and new route proposals!

As for other countries getting daytime slots, it's anyone's guess. As I said earlier, I think countries like Finland, Indonesia, Italy, Malaysia, and the Netherlands could be well deserving of HND slots. However, if Vietnam can get a daily daytime HND slot, nothing would surprise me at this point!

Quoting SR117 (Reply 3):
I wonder what the hold up is with US flights, perhaps Japan wants some NRT slots or beyond rights from US carriers in exchange for more HND access?

I don't think beyond rights are a big concern, but Japan has made it clear that they aren't happy about the very high proportion of NRT slots held by U.S. carriers. However, like the highly controversial Futenma base in Okinawa, there just isn't much they can do about this given the complex relationship between the U.S. and Japan dating back to World War II. Then again, both DL and UA have been steadily reducing intra-Asia services for years, and AA seemingly surrendered a NRT slot when it cut its daily JFK-NRT service after starting JFK-HND. What has become of all the NRT slots that had been used for stuff like:

AA: NRT-JFK
DL/NW: NRT-CAN, NRT-ICN, NRT-JFK (cut by both PMDL and PMNW, later resumed by the merged carrier), NRT-KIX, NRT-LAX (cut by PMDL), NRT-NGO, NRT-PUS, NRT-SGN
UA: NRT-PEK, NRT-PVG, NRT-TPE

These are just routes I can think of off the top of my head that were cut by the U.S. airlines serving NRT within the past 5-10 years. Although there have been several new and/or resumed NRT services by AA, DL/NW, and UA/CO in that timeframe, ostensibly reusing some of the slots, I imagine at least some are currently dormant, leased out to carriers from other countries, or perhaps even permanently surrendered to (and reallocated by) the Japanese?

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 8):
As more slots are opened up at HND, will we see something similar to the LGW/LHR situation? Are airlines that much more enamored with HND over NRT? Will these new slots hurt NRT or is there enough traffic to go around?

Tokyo will look a lot like London when it is all said and done. Premier airlines will consolidate at the preferred HND as much as possible, though the hub carriers will have no choice but to run a split airport operation - prime business routes from the popular city airport, leisure and secondary routes from its further counterpart. However, slots at both airports are only obtained through diplomacy, not free market means. Airlines like EK, EY, and QR were able to quickly and easily buy their way into LHR. For HND/NRT, they have to negotiate with the Japanese government (and their government, if there is competition from other national carriers for the slots) to gain access.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5263 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13702 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 7):
The current UK airline situation at TYO is one night-time slot pair operated by BA at HND and one slot pair operated by BA, another by VS at NRT. So if BA are allowed to retain their night-time HND slots both airlines could theoretically operate all their current TYO services into HND.

I think we will see BAdrop the night time HND in favour of a daytime flight as I believe it struggles with current timings.

I guess then its a matter of wait and see if NRT stays... I would presume yields would drop significantly making it unviable and perhaps will be favoured to do a codeshare with JL for NRT-LHR.


User currently offlinegroobster From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13111 times:

Quoting anstar (Reply 18):
I wonder how on earth Vietnam went from no HND access to a highly coveted daily daytime slot off the bat?

I noted that Hanoi's new international terminal is being built with a lot of Japanese assistance, maybe it has something to do with that?



Next flights: MAN-IST-AUH-MAN
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8634 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 12463 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
AA, which terminates most of their flights in NRT, could benefit by using Haneda with day light schedules.

Yes - although they do have oneworld partner JAL at NRT for onward connections. Not an expert on JAL's HND schedules, (??), but maybe it's workable.


User currently offlinenaritaflyer From Japan, joined Apr 2006, 549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11952 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 12):
Maybe a stupid question, but there is an obvious exodus occurring at NRT. Is there enough expansion potential at HND, it could make NRT obsolete? I am comparing this to a situation like Montreal where Mirabel was suppose to make Dorval a regional airport only, but in the end, the opposite happened, or does NRT just have too much traffic that this would never happen. How about a scenario where NRT becomes a cargo only airport with limited intra Japan traffic only? Is this all conceivable?

Narita's traffic is too big to be fully absorbed by Haneda. Plus, there is a lot of population around Chiba/Saitama for which Narita is more convenient. If my memory is correct, Mirabel was doing 1 million passengers a year so it was a pretty easy decision to consolidate flights at YUL. NRT is different.

Cheers,
Naritaflyer


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25745 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11803 times:

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 16):
Surprised that UAE where EK & EY wasnt in that list. Although i knew from insider that EK requested morning arrival into HND, they get no response.

UAE just received HND nighttime slots, with EK launching its service last week.

I think its premature to expect HND daytime slots for a few years.

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 17):
with global ramifications

Airport musical chairs in Tokyo indeed has global ramifications with potential for large service pattern and traffic flows changes.

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 17):
Vietnam is absolutely shocking though.

I am sure politics has a big part to play. I remember reading last year how Japan was cozying up ever more with Vietnam as leverage against China, while Vietnam had made Japan some sort of preferred trading partner with preferential policies on investment, taxation and land ownership.

In similar light, Turkey for instance just saw its Japan rights jump from 14 weekly to 42 weekly services after buying a nuclear power plant from Japan and giving them some other industrial contracts.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinestylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 2990 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11788 times:

Quoting SR117 (Reply 3):
One could definitely see AF, LH and BA completely abandon NRT in favor of HND. Connecting opportunities for domestic flights are much better at HND anyways (for LH and BA at least).

through their jointventure with ANA Lufthansa has already in some way access to HND which departs more or less at the same time as their NRT flight (LH710). In this case I see a beneficial situation for them when they switch to nighttime departures like their other far-east flights (SIN, HKG, BKK, PVG, SHE). however, there is another option: changing MUC-NRT to HND, but having split operations is always a matter of costs.


User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 11645 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
China - 28 (can only be used to PVG and CAN - 14 each)

Is there a reason why Beijing isn't included here? Are there already slots awarded to China for that airport or something?


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25745 posts, RR: 50
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 11686 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 24):
Is there a reason why Beijing isn't included here? Are there already slots awarded to China for that airport or something?

Yes see Reply 2. There is existing daytime flights to PEK already.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11516 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 10):
We're more likely to see it develop into a JFK/EWR(/LGA) situation, where the different airports serve different parts of the same market

No way it will be that balanced. JFK and EWR are roughly equidistant from Manhattan, with their relative size matched to the local population (JFK is bigger because the population of Brooklyn, Queens and Long Island is more dense than the population of northern NJ). LGA is a small regional airport in a more ideal location for city residents, but it can't expand beyond its mid-20th century design. Even if airlines wanted to and were allowed to, they couldn't fly long international flights out of LGA. So even if the PA weren't actively managing the situation, which they've done effectively, both JFK and EWR would still get a good amount of traffic.

HND is actually bigger than NRT *and* it's pretty centrally located, *and* it's capable of handling any international flight (though as someone said above, I'm not sure about the A380). NRT would be a regional airport at best if it were left to its own devices, but without the traffic and central location LGA has. I'm not sure about cargo, but for passengers (and by extension, airlines) I just can't see any benefit NRT has over HND unless you happen to live in the Narita area... but that's a *far* lower population base than Tokyo. Even people on that side of Tokyo Bay would rather use HND because the trains all go to Tokyo.

I wonder what the long term plan is. Narita was always a terrible location for an airport, and they dropped the "Tokyo" from the name a while ago now. I haven't been following this that closely, but is the plan for HND to really be Tokyo's main airport again for both domestic and international? (This would actually be less convenient for me personally, as my wife's family is in Ibaraki so it's just a short drive to NRT... but they live on a farm. There aren't a hell of a lot of other people out there...)



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4069 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10591 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Well Canada certainly wont get any since they dont even use their night time allocation.

Vietnam got daytime slots without even holding nighttime slots. With diplomacy playing such a big role, does Canada not using their nighttime slots really matter?



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineCXH From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10334 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Well Canada certainly wont get any since they dont even use their night time allocation.

AC had annouced YVR-HND in August 2010, to start flying in January 2011 using night time slots. But after once (or twice?) postponing it, I don't think they ever started it. They stuck to YVR-NRT, YYZ-NRT, and added YYC-NRT.

AC said the nighttime timings were part of the reason.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/6369...onveniently-located-near-central-t

http://www.tokyotomo.com/article/en/...d-increases-naritacalgary-service/



I've seen the future, I can't afford it. - Martin Fry
User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10254 times:
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Anyone know why it was JL that ended up doing HND-SFO, and not NH? Is there not enough traffic to start a westbound redeye to HND, in addition to their NRT flight (like LAX)?

User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3123 posts, RR: 20
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9401 times:

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 6):
But arriving or departing Japan between 11 pm and 6 a.m. on a 10-hour flight from/to Sydney or 11 1/2 from Istanbul is not beneficial.
Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 17):
Will any Australian or New Zealand carriers even want the nighttime slots?
Quoting qf002 (Reply 10):
Though I doubt we'll see QF or NZ at HND any time soon

Australia currently has access to 7 weekly nighttime slots at HND which are not used by any Australian Carrier. That was negotiated as part of the last bilateral.

The existing service by QF on SYD-NRT departs NRT at 8:30pm in order to arrive into SYD first thing in the morning while the flght on SYD-NRT arrives NRT just after 6am. So while QF does have access to a slot pair at HND right now, and while the flight into Japan could proceed as normal, the flight back to SYD would not work nor is it practical for the Corporate Market. Hence QF stays at NRT. Given the distinct lack of competition on the direct Australia-Japan routes there is no major disadvantage to them in doing so either.

If a slot, or slots, into HND were to become available where QF could keep its exisitng 8:30pm departure time from Tokyo, I'd say it's a 50/50 bet as to whether QF would swap into HND. On one hand, HND is much more convenient to the Corporate market and for Japanese domestic connections with JL but, on the other, JQ Japan is based in NRT and the existing JQ OOL-NRT and CNS-NRT will stay at NRT.

The other key factor is what the competition will do. If QF senses that VA might make a grab for the better timed slot for its own HND service, which they've talked about in the past, I'd say QF will grab it and swap SYD. If not, again I'd say they'll stay at NRT because there is no compelling reason for them to swap.


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5351 posts, RR: 11
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9316 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 30):
Though I doubt we'll see QF or NZ at HND any time soon

Hmm, for QF I agree with you. I wonder weather NZ will consider HND now that they are dropping KIX? Giving more domestic connections to ANA. NZ would obviously have to change schedule if they were night slots. Overnight ex AKL like HKG and PVG flights are.

AKL 2300 HND 0600
HND 2300 AKL 1500

Not the most ideal with the aircraft on the ground for 17 hours though.


User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 912 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8914 times:

The international terminal at HND is currently having a new pier built with another 8 gates being added, for opening next March. Looks like perfect timing for the new routes coming next summer.

User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6493 posts, RR: 9
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8520 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
Certainly did not stop DL from asking for a all 4 available Haneda allocations from the DOT.

You are right, Delta is to be congratulated for this smart move


User currently onlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7757 posts, RR: 18
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8437 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 33):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
Certainly did not stop DL from asking for a all 4 available Haneda allocations from the DOT.

You are right, Delta is to be congratulated for this smart move

The only problem with DL is that they have to focus on these flights' O&D value. There certainly is no opportunity for connections at HND as neither JL nor NH carry such deals with DL.

On the other hand I'm really surprised AA doesn't use its allocated slot better....do they have more slots?



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8371 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):

This is why VS is going out of business. VS might want to see how other long haul carriers are faring at Haneda before they abandon NRT. Haneda doesn't work for long haul without daylight slots.

Quoting SR117 (Reply 3):
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Quoting crownvic (Reply 11):

Like Montreal? No. All the traffic at NRT cannot be accommodated at HND. Not even close.


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4030 posts, RR: 13
Reply 36, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8260 times:

Japanese policy for aviation and airport infrastructure has been a pile of mistakes for the last 35 years and nothing has changed.


Stop pop up ads
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 37, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8045 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 26):
No way it will be that balanced

I actually find myself somewhat convinced when we're talking about a longer term view. It wouldn't surprise me at all if NH/JL gradually shifted their NRT operation across to their respective new low cost carriers, focusing their efforts at HND (I'm talking 20-25 years here).

So in that sense, NRT would shift towards serving lower fare traffic, but I still see a future for NRT that involves big, premium international carriers (which doesn't at all reflect the situation at LGW).

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 30):
Australia currently has access to 7 weekly nighttime slots at HND which are not used by any Australian Carrier. That was negotiated as part of the last bilateral.

Thank you! I didn't realise that the rights already existed, though if they've been there since 2011 (I assume that's the ammendment that they're part of?) then I guess that suggests that QF isn't interested in nighttime slots.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 30):
The existing service by QF on SYD-NRT departs NRT at 8:30pm in order to arrive into SYD first thing in the morning while the flght on SYD-NRT arrives NRT just after 6am

This is my major concern as well. The flight wouldn't arrive back into SYD until 10am at the earliest for most of the year (and that's if they can get out close to 11pm, when it's pretty busy). A late departure out of HND also means that one has to fill an evening in Tokyo before they head to the airport rather than setting off straight from work (which will be the preference for most Australian corporate travellers).

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 30):
If a slot, or slots, into HND were to become available where QF could keep its exisitng 8:30pm departure time from Tokyo, I'd say it's a 50/50 bet as to whether QF would swap into HND.

There's got to be changes in the pipeline for TYO anyway (with the older 744s leaving and the tight A330 fleet) so perhaps QF could roll them all into one big 'network enhancement' (move to HND, new timings, new equipment) if they were able to access earlier slots.

Slightly related question -- if an airline utilises a night slot for arrival and a day slot for departure (or vice versa), do the unused respective slots remain available for other airlines to use? So if Australia were to negotiate 7 weekly daytime slot pairs (in addition to the existing allowance), and QF used a night slot for arrival (ie they arrived before 6am) and a day slot for departure, could VA access the unused day arrival slot/night departure slot? It's not something I see happening, just curious...


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25745 posts, RR: 50
Reply 38, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 8002 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 35):
This is why VS is going out of business. VS might want to see how other long haul carriers are faring at Haneda before they abandon NRT. Haneda doesn't work for long haul without daylight slots.

You must not be aware, but last year VS expanded its JV with ANA for its anticipated Haneda services.

HND will be much better for VS as it will no longer solely rely on point to point traffic as it does with NRT but can leverage ANA's hub and marketing abilities to fill the flight.

And VS will have daytime slots, that was announced by the UK government last fall. That is the reason why they are moving.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineinfinit From Singapore, joined Jul 2008, 584 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7632 times:

Quoting groobster (Reply 19):
V

Probably also the changing political landscape. With the issues Japan and China have with each other, Japan has been rapidly stepping up its ties with the 10-member ASEAN block. Many Japanese companies are moving their production plants from China to Vietnam and Indonesia. This would probably translate to more business traffic and connections from Narita throughout South East Asia


User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2971 posts, RR: 3
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7431 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 36):
Japanese policy for aviation and airport infrastructure has been a pile of mistakes for the last 35 years and nothing has changed.

Nice way to sum it, and couldn't agree more.


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3123 posts, RR: 20
Reply 41, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 7288 times:

Quoting infinit (Reply 39):
Many Japanese companies are moving their production plants from China to Vietnam and Indonesia.

Not forgetting it's not just Japanese companies that are moving but it's a broader movement from "expensive" Chinese factories to cheaper countries by lots of different companies.


User currently offlinecosyr From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6709 times:

What is going to happen to Tokyo traffic overall. Haneda cannot handle all the traffic to Tokyo, but NRT is quickly becoming the LGW of Japan. No one seems to want to fly there, but some have no choice. How does Tokyo avoid the Mirabel mistakes, etc?

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 43, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6234 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
China - 28 (can only be used to PVG and CAN - 14 each)
France - 14
Germany - 14
Singapore - 14
Thailand - 7
United Kingdom - 14 (VS has already said it will move its NRT service to HND)
Vietnam - 7

Great list of Japan's most important Asian and European trading partners, but where are the slots for its most important trading partner ? US airline need day time slots too, not just the vampire slots between 2200-0700.


User currently offlinenaritaflyer From Japan, joined Apr 2006, 549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6162 times:

Quoting cosyr (Reply 42):
No one seems to want to fly there, but some have no choice. How does Tokyo avoid the Mirabel mistakes, etc?

Dunno. Tokyo metropolitan area of 38 million people (Tokyo, Yokohama, Saitama, Chiba), Montreal (Montreal, Laval, North shore and South shore) metropolitan area of 3 million people. Tell me, can Tokyo handle two airports you think?


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25745 posts, RR: 50
Reply 45, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5911 times:

Per Japanese aviation source Wingnews, Air Canada's president who was in Japan on Monday says he wished for some daytime Haneda slots. Says the carrier would run a YYZ-HND using the 787 or 77W..


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 46, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5694 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
United Kingdom - 14 (VS has already said it will move its NRT service to HND)

Has VS secured these slots? I'm assuming that BA and VS will apply through the CAA's scarce caacity rules to be awarded the slots? Could be 7 to each (daily flight), or BA apply for 14 and get them. Stranger things have happened!

With 7 daylight slots I could see BA deploying the A380 on LHR-HND, and say the 777-236ER or even the 787-836 on a LHR-NRT flight.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25745 posts, RR: 50
Reply 47, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5698 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 46):
Has VS secured these slots?

VS told the world last year it was moving to HND and expanded its ANA partnership.

Virgin Atlantic Tokyo Moves To Haneda; Use 787s (by LAXintl Sep 17 2012 in Civil Aviation)

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2190 posts, RR: 13
Reply 48, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5508 times:

And nothing for the Netherlands (KLM), Finland (FInnair), Switzerland (Swiss), Italy (Alitalia), one of the Scandinavian countries (SAS), all of which have a long established presence in the Japanese market, even more so than Turkey (THY)? Pity

User currently offlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1571 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5497 times:
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I am hopping mad that they didn't give Finland (AY) Haneda slots! AY was the first to fly Europe NRT non-stop!


Flying high and low
User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 652 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5300 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 43):
where are the slots for its most important trading partner ? US airline need day time slots too, not just the vampire slots between 2200-0700.

Don't worry. US will get most of the leftovers, or 6-8 daytime slot pairs.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7619 posts, RR: 17
Reply 51, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5004 times:

When VS announced their plan last year to move their TYO flight to HND this is what an article in Travel Weekly said:


"Japan-UK air service talks earlier this year agreed that night-time operating restrictions at Haneda are also to be relaxed and that limited international movements can take place during daylight hours providing airlines retain a commercial presence at Narita."


If this is correct does this mean that BA and VS will both have to maintain their existing single daily flights to NRT or, perhaps, just a reduced, say, weekend-only service or even just some other ground-only presence at NRT before using either of the daytime slots awarded to the UK at HND?

Or is the article wrong?

If it is right and since the article refers specifically to the Japan-UK, this may not (or may?) be the same for other airlines currently operating to NRT.

Here is the full article:

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articl...in+makes+tokyo+airport+switch.html


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4960 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 51):

Could that presence not be maintained via BA/VS's respective JV partners though? It doesn't say that they have to retain a physical presence, only a commercial one.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25745 posts, RR: 50
Reply 53, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4615 times:

Quoting mozart (Reply 48):

And nothing for the Netherlands (KLM), Finland (FInnair), Switzerland (Swiss), Italy (Alitalia), one of the Scandinavian countries (SAS), all of which have a long established presence in the Japanese market, even more so than Turkey (THY)? Pity

In fairness TK will likely become the largest European airline in Japan next year. Turkey just had its frequencies raised from 14 weekly with 2 service points to 42 at 5 service points.

THY Looks To Add NGO, FUK And HND (by LAXintl Jun 11 2013 in Civil Aviation)

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7757 posts, RR: 18
Reply 54, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4396 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 36):
Japanese policy for aviation and airport infrastructure has been a pile of mistakes for the last 35 years and nothing has changed.
Quoting carpethead (Reply 40):
Nice way to sum it, and couldn't agree more.

I agree to an extent but the issue here isn't the policy-- its the limitations. Remember when it comes to infrastructure, they are very limited- either off shore or eminent domain. Look at NRT; it's a huge mess because of their refusal to get tough on those farmers --- but remember, its farmers...that's their livelyhood.


At the same time, remember you have 127 million people living on 30% of land that is livable.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1571 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4369 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 53):
In fairness TK will likely become the largest European airline

In fairness TK isn't European airline. 3% of Turkeys land is located in Europe and the rest is in Asia. So I wouldn't call the country European.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 53):
Turkey just had its frequencies raised from 14 weekly with 2 service points to 42 at 5 service points.

Good luck for them. Let's see how long they are going to operate those flights.



Flying high and low
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25745 posts, RR: 50
Reply 56, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3988 times:

Consolidating everything at Haneda is not practical even if slots were not an issue.

HND is already the worlds 4th busiest airport and absorbing another 30+ million passengers from NRT would push it past Atlanta into the worlds top spot.

Tokyo easily needs 2 airports if not more.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDUSint From Germany, joined Apr 2013, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

Does anyone of you have information if there is something like HND-DUS being planned or at least in consideration?
Before the tragic earthquake March 11th 2011, LH had planned DUS-NRT to start in - IIRC - June 2011.
They stopped this from happening after the catastrophe because of the decline in business (that was the reason mentioned).

About a year later, JAL started to think about this routing with B788 (along with MAD, HEL and some others), but it did not see the day of light till now.

It is well known that we have a large Japanese community in Dusseldorf.


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