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Boeing 787-10 Launch Imminent  
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13215 posts, RR: 36
Posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 33545 times:

The 787-10 will be launched during the Paris airshow. The WSJ has also revealed the launch customers:

> Air Lease
> British Airways
> Singapore Airlines
> United Airlines

More news soon..

http://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/345277009481592832

[Edited 2013-06-13 13:38:10]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
174 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRonaldo747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 33421 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
> United Airlines

Interesting ... I smell a cancelation on the other side.

Bummer that Lufthansa is not on the list - yet(?)


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5803 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 33407 times:

If it's done today it's no mistake, they're trying to steal some of the A350 thunder since Airbus has schedule its first flight tomorrow. The 787-10 and the A350-900 are the two that compete directly head-to-head.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13215 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 33347 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
The 787-10 and the A350-900 are the two that compete directly head-to-head.

They are not 1-to-1 competitors, they only overlap each other a bit.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13215 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 33292 times:

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 1):
Bummer that Lufthansa is not on the list - yet(?)

I believe LH will announce its wide-body order later this year, but not during the Paris airshow.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3451 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 33160 times:

Tit-for-tat. Neither side want the other to have all of the media attention. Timing absolutely has something to do with A359 first flight.
Exciting times.

tortugamon


User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 33157 times:

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 1):
Interesting ... I smell a cancelation on the other side.

It could smell more like a conversion to a larger bird on the other side too?


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 33139 times:

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 1):

That's exactly what I thought as well. The 787-10 in UA-cls. This will be a beautiful plane.


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5803 posts, RR: 47
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 33134 times:

There'll be alot of orders from those that use the 777-200ER. Great replacement for that aircraft even though it's less than 20 years old by the time the -10 comes on line it could start replaceing 22-25 year old 772ERs.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13215 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 33132 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 5):
Timing absolutely has something to do with A359 first flight.

The only thing I care about is the technical pdf   



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineRonaldo747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 32970 times:

Quoting ap305 (Reply 6):
It could smell more like a conversion to a larger bird on the other side too?

25 787-9 and 25 A359 - would make sense (although A359 is not a 747 replacement to me, I'm sorry)
25 787-9, xx 787-10 and 25 A350-1000 - makes no sense to me.

I'd rather see a change into a large number of A321 NEO for replacement of the PMCO (TATL) 757s.
777-8X as replacement for 777 pacific ops and 777-9X as 747 replacement. I already abandoned hope for a 747-8 order.

Sorry for hijacking .... back to topic.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13215 posts, RR: 36
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 32924 times:

Quoting ap305 (Reply 6):
It could smell more like a conversion to a larger bird on the other side too?

   I expect some conversions too (but not from SQ and BA, these are new orders).

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 8):
Great replacement for that aircraft

   I agree, unless one needs the full range of 772ER. The 78J will be an ~ 7100nm bird while the 772ER has a range of 7700nm.

[Edited 2013-06-13 14:09:28]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5856 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 32846 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 11):
I agree, unless one needs the full range of 772ER. The 78J will be an ~ 7100nm bird while the 772ER has a range of 7700nm.

Perfect, then, for operators of early 772ERs with slightly limited range compared to the later birds...   


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 32790 times:

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 1):
Interesting ... I smell a cancelation on the other side.

UA has a financial incentive not to cancel the A350 order as it was tied into the A320s that were cancelled in Ch. 11. UA would be on the hook for the cancellation fees, which would probably be higher than for a normal order.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13215 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 32741 times:

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 1):
I smell a cancelation on the other side.

I they cancel they will lose their deposits. It makes more sense to upgrade to the larger A350-1000 and use it as an 747 replacement (just like BA did).



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5803 posts, RR: 47
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 32431 times:

WSJ saying launch in Paris with customers from US (UA, ALC), Europe (IAG), and Asia (Singapore Air).

[Edited 2013-06-13 14:40:56]


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3451 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 32414 times:

Quoting ap305 (Reply 6):
There'll be alot of orders from those that use the 777-200ER.

Agreed. I could definitely see a significant amount of the A330 replacement market going this way as well. Those frames used on regional routes would be ideal.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 9):
The only thing I care about is the technical pdf

Can't wait. If trip cost is lower than the A359 up to around 5000nm it will be a winner.

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 10):
25 787-9, xx 787-10 and 25 A350-1000 - makes no sense to me.

Why not? That lineup makes a lot of sense to me. If you need range and have demand for around 300 seats you go with the 789, if you don't need all of the range you go with the 781 and if you need more seats and more range you go with the 351. I think that would be an excellent UA lineup.

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 10):
777-8X as replacement for 777 pacific ops

I cannot see them ever ordering the 777-8X. They do not own a 77F or a 77L, why would they need the 777-8 that the 351 could not do better?

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 14):
It makes more sense to upgrade to the larger A350-1000

Agreed.

Jon @WSJ:
Air Lease Corp... potentially ordering up to 30 of the new jets to lease to airlines, one of the people said.
User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 32114 times:
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Could this mean a route like SFO-SIN?

User currently onlineMiami From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 2257 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 31971 times:
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I wonder if AA and EK will order the 787-10..


Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3451 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 31860 times:

How many aircraft do we think the launch order will be for?

30 SIA - Previously Announced
30 AL - Referenced in WSJ article
18 BA/IAG - Converted options assumed to be for the -10
~20? UA - W.A.G.

I am not sure that it is that unrealistic to assume that at launch it will have more orders than the 358 currently has.

If it launched at PAS, it could have more orders than the 351 by the end of the year.   

I really want to hear how they plan on executing the ramp up because IMO 12-14/month run rate is a must come 2017 if they want to have any decent slots open before 2020.

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 17):
Could this mean a route like SFO-SIN?

No. That is 200nm above the 7100 max range. I do not imagine you will see too many 787-10s crossing the pacific (Maybe Japanese birds in low density). North America to Europe or South America, Middle East to Asia or Europe, Inter Asia/Australasia will be its primary uses.

Quoting Miami (Reply 18):

I wonder if AA and EK will order the 787-10..

IMO, AA definitely (77E replacement) and EK definitely not (too small).

tortugamon


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12599 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 31865 times:

Quoting Miami (Reply 18):
I wonder if AA and EK will order the 787-10..

American, certainly, but I'd be doubtful about EK.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 30129 times:
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I see no reason for UA to cancel the A350-900 order - the 787-10 is not going to be able to perform missions like LAX/SFO-EU that are currently operated by the 777-200ER. Yes, the 787-9 has the legs to do it, but the 787-9 can't take the 2+4+2 Global Business Class product used on the 77E which means they will be either using the 767-300ER GB product or the 2+2+2 BusinessFirst product and the extra row the A350-900 can take of either will be welcomed.

User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3379 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 29537 times:

Quoting Miami (Reply 18):
EK will order the 787-10

I recall EK left the door open for the 787-10. Even though EK has a LARGE A350 order, I think they also spoke with Boeing about the 787-10 and wouldn't be surprised if they reduce their A350 order (in favor of more A380s which hasn't been ruled out) to get the 787s.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineklkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 946 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 29540 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
but the 787-9 can't take the 2+4+2 Global Business Class product used on the 77E

Thank god!!! 2-4-2 in business should go away.

But I agree with your point in general that the 787 is no reason to cancel the the A350 order. The new 777 might be a different story, though.

Delta could be an early customer.

It wasn't that long ago that Richard Anderson said he would take it now if available:
http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000154946

Also recent reports suggest that they are considering a new wide body order.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 29266 times:
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Quoting klkla (Reply 23):
Delta could be an early customer.

It wasn't that long ago that Richard Anderson said he would take it now if available:
http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000154946

Also recent reports suggest that they are considering a new wide body order.

I believe they have delayed their 787-8 deliveries out past the 787-10 EIS, so they could convert the orders without impacting their delivery positions while still giving them plenty of time to get ready for them.


25 PIEAvantiP180 : With 7100nm range the 787-10 will have no problem performing any LAX/SFO-EU routes. LAX to IST is the longest route from LAX to Europe, and at 5970nm
26 FriendlySkies : Agreed...I can see a handful of 787-10s coming in to replace the 772A models and possibly some of the 772ERs used on East Coast US - Europe, where th
27 Stitch : That range is just passengers and baggage. The 787-10 will have a massive cargo capability so the more important number is what the range will be wit
28 qf002 : I thought UA was sticking with the old CO layout anyway, which should be 2-2-2 in either the A350 or 787. But I agree that the A350 order isn't going
29 XT6Wagon : Passenger only routes might be perfectly viable in the 787-10. During high season it flys full of passengers, and on weaker seasons it shifts to carg
30 Post contains links columba : The CEO of LH Franz said a few weeks ago that LH will not be the launch customer of the 787-10X but it is still under consideration. As it is also be
31 BlueSky1976 : 787-10 will not have legs to do Central US/East Coast to Asia flights when fully loaded. A350-1000 and 787-9 for Asia and 787-10 for Europe and Latin
32 tristan7977 : So UA has seen interest in the 787-10X I see, are they still studying the A350-1000 to replace 747-400's?? The 787's will probably replace the 777-200
33 PIEAvantiP180 : You are correct on that but even with all that said the 787-10 should be able to perform LAX/SFO to all of west Europe with full pax and a decent car
34 Post contains images frigatebird : It makes perfect sense to me. 787-10 to replace 772s and 77Es that don't need the range. They can better use the A350-900 for that. They have a great
35 tortugamon : It was SUH who asked for 100-200nm of extra range on the 787-10. After doing a number of scenarios I wonder if it was these routes that he had in min
36 Prost : By the time the 787-10 comes out, DL should have more manageable debt levels of $5-$7 Billion dollars. The 787-10 is the only aircraft not ordered th
37 Post contains links tortugamon : From a Bloomberg Article: 14/month by 2015! "While the planemaker isn’t discussing goals beyond 2013, Boeing will need a faster rate to fill more t
38 OldAeroGuy : If LH doesn't buy the 787-10, we'll know all their carping about A & B designing airplanes with too much range capability wasn't serious.
39 KarelXWB : A "big plane" in EK terms also means range. Tim Clark keeps on pushing more range for new jets and I think the 78J doesn't have the desired range.
40 Post contains images frigatebird : Wow. Then indeed the 787-10 will be too small for EK. I wonder why they haven't converted at least some of the A359s to -1000s, the -900 lacks 50 sea
41 KarelXWB : I'm pretty sure they will convert some. In a recent interview, Clark said he wants to see real data from the aircraft before making the decision.
42 longhauler : AC has announced internally that all options after the original 37 deliveries of -8s and -9s, will be -10s.
43 columba : The 787-10 and the -9 will most likely the best selling variants of the 787 family.
44 wingman : OldAero makes a point I wanted to yesterday about LH...they complain about weight and range and yet here's a plane in the 10X that is tailored made fo
45 RayChuang : I don't know why would UA buy the 787-10 when the A350XWB-900 can eventually replace ALL of the older 777's in the UA fleet--and has the range to easi
46 klkla : Because the 787-10 is likely to be more efficient on shorter-length flights than the A350-900.
47 NYC777 : So much for JL assertion that the 787-10 will be another 767-400.
48 neutrino : Who takes him seriously on most Boeing matters anyway? It's the guy's job to downplay - even diss - the competition.
49 Post contains links tortugamon : I think they will. As they ordered before the redesign I believe they have the ability to walk away from the order without losing the deposits and bu
50 JAAlbert : Why would Boeing design the 787-10 with a range that restricts US West Coast to Europe? Its seems a plane the size of the 787-10 would be very popular
51 YTZ : If true than the 787 is out. EK would go 359, 351, 779, 380 for their eventual fleet.
52 Post contains images EPA001 : Great news. . Why? I can easily see many more A350's coming to UA as well (that is what you are hinting at, right?). But why would they throw away de
53 aircal62 : I cannot see any reason for United to cancel their A350's at all. The 350 promises to be a very good aircraft and like Delta has made a habit of doing
54 sunrisevalley : I don't believe your information is correct. MUN-LAX is 12hr 20min timetable time , a 787-10 with a 254.8t MTOW will haul 38t for a sector of this ti
55 sunrisevalley : If they chose they could operate a -10 in a high density of about 400-passengers at max volume limited payload from just about anywhere in Europe wes
56 Post contains images astuteman : I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying it's clear they won't take all their A359's? It's always worth being careful just where you put your nose R
57 Post contains links tortugamon : Great analysis. This is why United will need the 351 in its fleet. The 359 will be less important but I think the 351 becomes nearly essential. And i
58 dfambro : Looks like the 787 is going to have its best sales year since 2007, and even do better in the first half of 2013 than in any of past 5 full calendar y
59 Deltal1011man : Huh? What do you mean too expensive? Anderson was on TV not to long basically beggin Boeing to offer This.
60 Post contains links scbriml : You know, costs too much, not cheap enough. It's pretty clear. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...delta-planes-idUSL2N0E31GI20130522
61 YTZ : Wise choice. I've often wondered if AC even needs the 788 and if they wouldn't be better off with -9s and -10s.
62 Post contains links NYC777 : Bloomberg is reporting that Qatar is going to buy more787 at Paris. I wouldn't be surprised is they're going to buy the -10 and use the 30 options the
63 PHX787 : This is probably something DL will jump on eventually. Also, this is probably what Boeing will launch into battle to compete with Airbus A350 over NH'
64 KarelXWB : Qatar will also buy more 777-300ER aircraft.
65 KarelXWB : 290 seats - 320 seats - 350 seats -> makes perfect sense? Plus, the -1000 can be used for the longe-range routes. And even United is now going thi
66 morrisond : If a 789 781 a351 combo makes sense for US Mainlines and apparently others that's not saying a lot about 779 - which should have cockpit commonalitiy
67 sweair : You should ask yourself, how much more efficient would a new build be over the updated 777? The NSA would only be like 5-7% more effcient over the ma
68 longhauler : The first 37 are cast in stone with -8s and -9s, the remaining options can be anything. They will need the -8s if they are ever going to retire the B
69 Polot : It frankly says nothing about the 778/779. There are only about ~6/7 77Ws currently operating with US carriers, all with one carrier, and only 40 pas
70 frigatebird : Patience... the 777X only has ATO since a few weeks. The 787-10 already has ATO for more than half a year, and the first order is just in. Expect EK,
71 Stitch : I guess it depends on how QR defines "launch customer" - it it first to fly, or first to buy? QR could order the 787-10 at PAS with SQ, UA, et. al.,
72 rotating14 : That's what I'm thinking as well. I mentioned in another thread that Tortugamon replied on, they might just want to order some some after everybody e
73 Post contains links and images tortugamon : That would make 110 orders for aircraft with nominal seating between 314 and 350 seats versus 69 total on-hand wide body aircraft. Very interesting f
74 Post contains links longhauler : These are not orders, just options ... basically reserving a line spot. Those options are still unspecified, and considering the size of the AC order
75 NYC777 : If Boeing is able to announce 110 firm orders for the 787-10 at Le Bourget, they would then have reached 1000 orders for all versions of the 787...not
76 tortugamon : Right. I can see Boeing saying that you have the right to buy 787s for delivery between this date and that date and maybe even specified pricing as w
77 Post contains images Stitch : If you consider the DC-10 and MD-11 to be one family, then they were first: DC-10-10: 131 DC-10-30: 206 MD-11: 200 Though at that point, you could pr
78 Post contains images Polot : I'm not sure I would argue that the DC-10-10 and DC-10-30 are different sizes
79 Post contains images tortugamon : Come on Stitch, you are such a wet blanket with all of your facts! Different fuse dimensions and different wing though. Very different wing and 2 engi
80 Polot : The DC-10 and MD-11 have the same fuselage.
81 Post contains links tortugamon : Not according to: http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data/stats.main?id=112 http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data/stats.main?id=279 tortugamon
82 Polot : I do not know where you are getting that they have different fuselages from those links. They have the same fuselage cross section, the MD-11's is ju
83 Post contains images Stitch : *smacks head* That is what I get for being in a hurry and not knowing jack about the DC-10 family.
84 columba : A330-200, A330-300, A340-300 same wing, same fuselage, same cockpit minus two trust levers for the A330, same type rating,designed and sold as "one"
85 Post contains links NAV20 : Not sure yet in that area. Boeing have plenty of orders for both their current models - 535 for the B788, 355 for the B789 - and sound pretty confide
86 Post contains images planesntrains : If there is any doubt that the 359 and 3510 will sell like hotcakes, then I'm at a loss as to what to say? The 358 is arguably the weak link but even
87 sweair : I am sorry for doubting some of Airbus thinking but I see no real market for the A358, I just cant see the use of this model. I however can see a 787-
88 Post contains images astuteman : NAV would look at the charge of Marshall Ney at Waterloo, just before they engaged, and turn the set off, declaring Napoleon the winner.... I think w
89 scbriml : STILL flogging that horse? Your analysis also conveniently forgets the hundreds of A330s that Airbus has sold (and is still selling) since the 787 wa
90 NAV20 : On the contrary, scrimbl, I think that the fact that the A330 has proved to be an excellent and enduring product, and has just gone on selling, may h
91 KarelXWB : From an interview with Airbus' CEO on June 17, Fabrice Bregier explained: As result of this "aggressively marketing", orders for the -1000 have alrea
92 Post contains links PHX787 : Just came across this past thread: QR As The Launch 787-10 Customer? (by rotating14 Nov 13 2012 in Civil Aviation) Looks like so far QR is not anywher
93 Post contains images astuteman : it almost undoubtedly is. However, the infantry are still forming into squares. We've got nowhere near seeing Uxbridge's counterattack, and the Pruss
94 NAV20 : Maybe a bit of a misunderstanding, KarelXWB. I'm not saying that either aeroplane won't succeed - indeed, I expect that they both will, in the fullne
95 india1 : @NAV- youre missing the UA conversions & BA, SQ orders/ firm commitments in your count for the A35J
96 KarelXWB : Billions? The -1000 is a stretch, it doesn't cost billions to develop. I assume you meant millions. Anyway, given the large interest by many carries
97 Post contains links hkcanadaexpat : Looks like BA is ordering 10! http://money.msn.com/business-news/a...feed=OBR&date=20130616&id=16600771 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/..
98 KarelXWB : That's a surprise, I expected they would order 18 units.
99 Post contains images NAV20 : Fair enough, mate - nearly typed 'millions,' I'm pretty 'old-fashioned.' But hkcanadaexpat just kindly provided a link that confirms that any order f
100 Unflug : Both sources say "about 10", your expectation still might be correct...
101 KarelXWB : We were talking about development costs, not sale values. It would not make sense to order only 10 units. The new order for 18 787 aircraft will repl
102 7BOEING7 : At least a billion is the right answer -- you're looking at almost a year long flight test program with probably 3 airplanes, that's not cheap.
103 KarelXWB : Six months flight testing, not a year. Additionally, those test frames will be sold.
104 Post contains links Tankereng : Reuters is saying that the -10 will launch with up to 100 orders worth just under $30 billion. Doesn't say who though. Link: http://www.reuters.com/ar
105 Post contains links tortugamon : Flightglobal has this RR article about the Trent Ten. They are targeting a 3% improvement compared to today's Trent 1000 engine which is 2% better tha
106 Post contains images tortugamon : Also, is anyone surprised to hear that the entry into service of the Trent Ten engine is 2016? We have been hearing that the 787-10x will enter servic
107 Post contains links KarelXWB : The article has been updated with more information: > Official price tag of around $280-290 million per plane > Due to enter service in 2018-19
108 KarelXWB : This has always been the plan and was already reported in 2012 I believe. Stretching is not just producing larger parts but there will be a design ph
109 XT6Wagon : you need the engine a year or two before the plane its on enters service. Its... very difficult to certify something that doesn't exist.
110 sunrisevalley : With 78000lbs of thrust from this engine the 787-10 will get out of JNB on a 25c day at ~251t MTOW. This will put it at about 6400nm with max passeng
111 Post contains images tortugamon : I did not ask if anyone was not surprised Figured you were up to speed on the progress even though it surprised me. Well the 787-9 engine is not yet
112 KarelXWB : The 787-9 can fly with the current Trent 1000 Package B, package C is only a fuel burn improvement. The 787-10 on the other hand depends on the Trent
113 Post contains images Stitch : Not if the Trent-TEN finds its way on the 787-9 starting in 2016.
114 Post contains images tortugamon : Gotcha. You guys are seeing the Trent Ten more as an SFC upgrade for the whole family rather than a distinct new engine for the -10. Essentially a mo
115 Post contains images EPA001 : I am sure they can. Just as GE will counter with further upgrades on their engines as well. It is a very interesting race, not only between Airbus an
116 planesntrains : The 359 just flew this week - and you are using (distant) orders as a basis for their success? Interesting... -Dave
117 Post contains images mffoda : I'd ask a different question? Is this possibly the reason for the 6800 nmi to 7100 nmi upgrade on the 787-10 that was originally marteked and is as a
118 Post contains links tortugamon : Very true and that is true of not just this aircraft. Even with GE as sole provider on the 777X I am sure they are very motivated to do what they can
119 sunrisevalley : A 2% improvement in SFC improves the range of the 787-10 at max passenger load by less than 200nm. I believe they are getting the improvement from 67
120 Post contains links and images ferpe : It should be the 97klbf Trent XWB and 5% makes sense. Here is how I think all these new engines stack up: Fuel burn per delivered lbf at best altitud
121 Post contains links tortugamon : Do we have any idea how much additional MEW it is to get that 3t MTOW bump? Its great to see the updated analysis Ferpe. I guess the key question is
122 NAV20 : Dave, Airbus has done very well to get the A359 into the air so quickly - and they have plenty of orders for that. But the emphasis now is on testing
123 Post contains images ferpe : The weight escalation for an increase in MTOW is called the spiral factor (more weight means more stress on structure which means more structure weig
124 Post contains images cerecl : Always looking for the dark cloud are we? Neither model is going into production at this stage. A350-1000's first flight is scheduled in 2016, A350-8
125 Stitch : There might be none (beyond the extra OEW imposed in the 5.5m stretch itself) as the landing gear is said to be good for 254t (which would be 3t more
126 NAV20 : Agreed, Stitch, but the 787 was literally 'experimental,' a new venture facing next to no competition from above or below. The A350 is the direct opp
127 Post contains images Stitch : It faced competition from the A330 and the original A350 families. And both of those types - the A330-300 and 777-300ER - look to be very much at ris
128 NAV20 : Meant the 788 rather than the A330, Stitch. Agree with you about the threat from the 1000, though; which is why, as far as I recall, we both think Air
129 oldeuropean : And they have stated that they are not longer interested in the 787-1000. It's very likely that the decision for new wide body will be either for the
130 planesntrains : Sure we do. It's been discussed ad nauseum. The A350-1000 is years away from rollout and there was a general uncertainty about what Boeing was going
131 Stitch : Which is surprising considering they have been complaining about aircraft being "overbuilt" for long range. Of the three, the 787-10 is the least "ov
132 tortugamon : So somewhere in between 0 and 1t MEW increase. Sounds like it was probably worth it. Thanks guys. tortugamon
133 Post contains links and images KarelXWB : That is very interesting. The surge line in 40-24 will be gone and building all 3 types on the same line 40-26 is something I don't see happen duo to
134 Post contains images scbriml : Isn't that horse dead yet? They will both be built. Indeed. It will lead to the inevitable disappointment. For the -1000, he may only have to wait un
135 Post contains images KarelXWB : GECAS has ordered 10 787-10X to be powered by GEnx, deliveries 2019 to 2021.
136 NYC777 : I beleive the plant at CHS has a total of 8 positions.
137 Post contains images KarelXWB : That makes it even more better!
138 NYC777 : Yup they can run two lines in parallel.
139 Post contains images KarelXWB : If the -1000 keeps selling like it has done in the past 12 months, it should easily reach about 300 orders before EIS in 2017. That's more than half
140 tortugamon : It does appear that way. I imagine they will eventually do two models in each location. 8s and 9s in Everett and probably 8s and 10s in SC. That way
141 Post contains links YTZ : Surprised that Etihad is not among the early customers for the -10. It seems to me that the -10 is perfect for EY: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=5000nm
142 seabosdca : Obviously the -1000 will be built and will be a core product of great importance to Airbus. It will also get many more sales. But I'm not convinced t
143 Post contains links tortugamon : The -9 is there to stay in EY's fleet. They have been convincing their invested companies to buy the -9 as well: This change in Air Berlin’s firm o
144 Post contains links KarelXWB : Al Baker said he’s not interested in the Boeing 787-10X: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...-as-airbus-trumps-smaller-jet.html
145 sweair : The A358 has very little to offer over the A359, the main reason I think it will be a very poor seller with time. Look at how many airlines swap 788s
146 Post contains images Stitch : Considering this is "U-Turn Al", I'd be inclined to "never say never" even when he says "never".
147 Post contains images tortugamon : Talk about a uturn; IMO I think AAB really makes sense here He has a bunch of A350s on order and does not need the -10x with nearly identical seat ca
148 astuteman : It's in exactly the same place as the 777-8LX is compared to the 777-9X Rgds
149 seabosdca : ...another aircraft which is a source of puzzlement to many, including me. But at least the 777-8LX is quite likely to turn into a world-beating frei
150 Stitch : It strikes me as being designed for customers who currently fly the 777-300ER in a high-density configuration (two classes and/or 10-abreast Y) who n
151 Post contains images seabosdca : As far as I can tell, that description covers one customer who might need 20 frames tops.
152 Post contains images Stitch : And yet I recall a comment by that one customer says he's interested in upwards of 15 times that many 777-8 and 777-9 in total, so it might be worth
153 Post contains links tortugamon : Here is an angle that I had not really considered. While GE is going through the GE9X there is opportunity that some of these new, cutting edge techn
154 Post contains images KarelXWB : Here is another hint about customers for the 787-10:
155 sweair : Will IAG put the 787-10 at work for Iberia? Or will it replace their 744s at BA?
156 Post contains images frigatebird : The advert says under the BA tail: International Airlines Group / British Airways Glad Boeing finally launched it!
157 Post contains images tortugamon : I am tired of putting an 'x' after it every time Now we just need the actual Boeing announcement! tortugamon
158 Post contains images frigatebird : I thought this ad was the official Boeing announcement, but I read on the Boeing order page it's actually from the facebook page of GECAS. Maybe they
159 Post contains links KarelXWB : We have formal launch. http://twitter.com/BoeingAirplanes/status/346909008738783236
160 tortugamon : It is official! ALC with 30 and UA with 20, GECAS 10, SIA 30, and IAG (between 10-18)! ALC with 3 additional 7877-9s. via twitter tortugamon
161 Post contains links and images KarelXWB :
162 Post contains links KarelXWB : Final assembly & flight test of the 787-10 are set to begin in 2017, with first delivery targeted for 2018. First delivery customer not set. http:
163 Prost : Am I mistaken to think that the range was 7100 NM, amd now the presentation board is saying 7000 NM?
164 tortugamon : 250,830 MTOW (same as -9) so no extra bump like previously speculated. 90%+ of twin aisle routes is a solid figure. tortugamon
165 Post contains links and images KarelXWB : In terms of orders and commitments, we have: > ALC (30) > Singapore Airlines (30) > United Airlines (20) > IAG (12) > GECAS (10)
166 someone83 : Looking at the photo av Boeing site, wil it only have double boogie? Thought it needed a tripple?
167 KarelXWB : 7100nm was never confirmed by Boeing.
168 Post contains links KarelXWB : A new website too: http://www.newairplane.com/787/787-10_announcement/
169 PHX787 : So we don't know where these lessor frames are going either. Anyone have any ideas? Realizes GECAS, ALC, they aren't airlines lol
170 Post contains links KarelXWB : The press release can be found here: http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2711
171 tortugamon : Based on the slide it will have the same MTOW as the -9 so no need for the triple bogie. Looks like they satisfied SuH has he ordered 30! tortugmaon
172 Post contains images ferpe : And beware of the caveat, the 7000nm is with 300 pax, seats and bags, not with the nominal 323. How do I know this? Because the nominal 789 range is
173 Post contains links and images KarelXWB : And here are the full specs:
174 Post contains links moderators : Now it is official: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner (by moderators Jun 18 2013 in Civil Aviation) Thread will be locked.
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