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A340 Lovers "Beware"  
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1019 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 37099 times:

The following WSJ article puts to bed many of the fan based arguments regarding the merits of the A340... Despite her eye appealing beauty. The financial community speaks out.




harder than woodpecker lips...
168 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 37226 times:

The link is 404...

But I certainly look forward to another completely unbiased and expert opinion of everything aviation by the WSJ...  

And what's the point of beating a dead horse anyway?

[Edited 2013-06-13 20:47:36]


Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1019 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 37125 times:

The link won't post here...

But if you google: For Airbus and Bankers, Big A340s Pose Sizable Risks

It will bring you to the article.



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineBreninTW From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 37074 times:

I think the article being referenced is the one entitled "For Airbus and Bankers, Big A340s Pose Sizable Risks" -- from WSJ Online.

Google will help you by-pass the PayWall.



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 37104 times:

Here you go:
http://tinyurl.com/moxe64q


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1019 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 36939 times:

Quoting flood (Reply 4):

Thank you flood,  



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6482 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 36971 times:

The article is quite vicious. If you're an A340 fan and so are inclined to assume that negative articles are biased, how do you counter those assertions? They seem to have good sources.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29686 posts, RR: 84
Reply 7, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 36832 times:
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The A340 did what it said on the side of the tin it would do, however by guaranteeing a minimum asset value to help secure deals, the value Airbus contractually guaranteed for the plane is more than what the standard market value is. And potential customers for those used planes are not willing to pay that price. I also expect those potential customers want their own guaranteed asset values as A340 values will only fall farther as 777s come onto the second hand market in competition.

User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1795 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 36779 times:

There was talk in industry publications, that many of these a/c would see a second life as freighters, yet there is no mention of it in this article as no formal program has been announced. Ironically, the plane that killed the MD-11 is now going to have the last laugh  

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29686 posts, RR: 84
Reply 9, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 36667 times:
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Quoting crownvic (Reply 8):
There was talk in industry publications, that many of these a/c would see a second life as freighters, yet there is no mention of it in this article as no formal program has been announced.

I think the A330P2F program has killed any real prospects for an A340P2F.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 36667 times:

Ok, got it. Thanks.

I guess someone should mention that the article talks about the A340-500 and -600, their much faster than planned depreciation and how it is affecting the companies that financed them, leased them as well as the airline's accounting books. Problem is that they have virtually no residual value and airlines are trying to replace them early for more efficient models.

That being said, I believe the only ones really affected by this might be smaller financing companies who were proportionally more exposed in these deals. Airbus itself is more than ready to wipe the chalkboard and move on, while most airlines are able to get rid of theirs through deals with manufacturers on future purchases or by ending the leases altogether.

Most of the damage is done already. I can only think of VS who will shortly get rid of theirs, and EK's which were part of the A350 deal. LH will be keeping them until their accounting value reaches their actual value (=scarp), so that's not an issue for them, as long as they're happy to fly them.


I like this quote:
"But the company continues to sell new aircraft aggressively, and banks facing losses on A340s complain that the new sales undercut the value of planes that they helped Airbus sell just a few years ago."

Note to banks financing new aircrafts: While the A340-500/600 was certainly a bad bet, it is somewhat of an indications of things to come. With more and more financial burden switching to operating the airplanes rather than financing their purchase, operators will now be switching models quicker than ever before, and that doesn't bode well for resale and residual values generally speaking...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11929 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 36625 times:

Interesting to read how the article explicitly says Boeing will scrap the A340s it took in as a part of deals to sell 777s yet it seems pretty obvious that most if not all of the planes discussed won't fly again. As mentioned in another thread, the best economic value of A340s these days seems to be to serve as parts donors for A330s...


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBreninTW From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 36583 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 10):
With more and more financial burden switching to operating the airplanes rather than financing their purchase, operators will now be switching models quicker than ever before, and that doesn't bode well for resale and residual values generally speaking...

I wouldn't be surprised to see re-engining programs being instituted in the future. By this I mean that after 10 years or so, the engines get swapped out for more efficient models while the fuselage remains in service.



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 36486 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 11):
it seems pretty obvious that most if not all of the planes discussed won't fly again.

Even those that Airbus bought back will likely be headed the same way...

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 12):
By this I mean that after 10 years or so, the engines get swapped out for more efficient models while the fuselage remains in service.

I think New Engines + New Wings seems to be the developing trend. Those are the 2 areas where most fuel saving can be done. That's essentially what the NEO, MAX, 777-9X and 748 are. I'd like to see the A330 getting that treatment too.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6590 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 36498 times:

As an A340 fan, I say, "Whopeeee! Cheap 340s on the market!"   

However, I stick with the 342 and 343... the 345 looks awesome but from the beginning I thought it (345) together with the 346 are in my opinion, financial timebombs... Sadly, I'm not wrong.

If one does not need the payload range, stick to the 343 and not be tempted to go 345/6.

---

I do feel the article is a bit harsh as it isolates purely on the 340... the 342/3 are part of the 330/340 program, while the 345/6 are in my view the separate program. The 345/6 are flunks. No stats can skew it otherwise, but if some carriers find good use for it, good.

On the other hand, will the 747-8i face the same fate as the 345/6?

[Edited 2013-06-13 21:30:40]


When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3197 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 36424 times:

Okay what stands out for me is how cheap the aircraft are.
This seems to be less than what i heard a year or two ago for the 744, though
given that in the last 2 years a lot more of them have been pulled from service that
may have fallen even lower.

But what got me thinking, is if its cheap enough to buy, that will go someway to offsetting the
aircrafts higher fuel consumption (and it is still lower than the 744...anybody at virgin or Lufthansa
who operate both care to comment?) Then this aircraft could potentially be a good aircraft in the longer
range leisure market, in a high density configuration. I'm thinking the long range operations of the TUI group,
or even Jetstar or Norwegian Air Shuttle etc. Squeeze 400 plus seats in it and send it to places like Cancun, SXM or HNL.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3197 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 36406 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 14):
On the other hand, will the 747-8i face the same fate as the 345/6?

Potentially worse. If Boeing Launch their next gen 777 and it grows even slightly, it's going to be tough
selling 748s. Unless at a significant discount. It will be pretty much what the 77W did to the 744 all over again.


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3209 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 36335 times:

My favorite quote from the article: "Unfortunately," says Akbar Al Baker, chief executive of Qatar Airways, the A340 isn't an old car "that you can just throw away." Who throws away cars? I would love to be AAB for a bit just to see how that guy's mind works.

Interesting and depressing article for sure. Less than $20 Million for a 10 year old plane? Boeing buying them just to scrap them is sad. I would like to think we could come up with a positive use for these aircraft. Infrequent but long distance high rollers with engine confidence issues and a large possy does not sound like a huge market though.

Anybody else a conspiracy theorist like me; maybe the timing of this article had an intended purpose? Is there any new information in this article that was not also true and available six months ago? I know it is a stretch but there seems to be some interesting articles coming out and it is only 3.5 hours until #A350FF.

tortugamon


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3197 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 36308 times:

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 12):
I wouldn't be surprised to see re-engining programs being instituted in the future. By this I mean that after 10 years or so, the engines get swapped out for more efficient models while the fuselage remains in service.

Interesting idea. how much of a fuel saving would you say sticking the Gen EX engine or the 787 trent engine on the A346? It would have to be quite significant to justify the investment.


User currently offlineBreninTW From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 36296 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 13):
I think New Engines + New Wings seems to be the developing trend. Those are the 2 areas where most fuel saving can be done. That's essentially what the NEO, MAX, 777-9X and 748 are. I'd like to see the A330 getting that treatment too.

Yes, I can see that being a trend for new-manufacture aircraft.

However, I wouldn't be surprised to see similar programs being applied to second-hand/in-service aircraft. Something similar to what happened with the DC8 aircraft that were re-engined with CFM engines.

While I understand that the fuel consumption delta between the CFM and original P&W engines was substantial, with continued high fuel prices, and large in-service fleets of modern widebodies, it will become increasingly financially feasible to instigate re-engine programs. For example, if RR was to develop an updated engine for the A330 that is ... say ... 2.5% to 5% more fuel efficient than the installed engines and didn't require a new interface it could be a game-changer for the A330.



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineBreninTW From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 36235 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 18):
Interesting idea. how much of a fuel saving would you say sticking the Gen EX engine or the 787 trent engine on the A346? It would have to be quite significant to justify the investment.

It wouldn't work for a small fleet such as the A346/A345 -- as you say the investment would be difficult to justify. However for aircraft with large "installed bases" it might become justifiable.



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 36248 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):
It will be pretty much what the 77W did to the 744 all over again.

Well, the 744s have mostly flown long enough to justify their low to nil residual values, unlike the A346s.

Mandala499 raises a good point in saying that there are 747s (and A343s) which will outfly most A346s. Given how cheaply you can get one of these, and given they're still cheaper to operate than a 747, one wonders would could profitably operate them. However, it seems even high density charter operators are now shying away from bigger and older aircrafts and shifting to smaller and more efficient models...

On a side note, that Azerbaijan A345 does look stunning.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):
it's going to be tough
selling 748s.

Except the freighter model. There's nothing on the horizon that will replace it. I'm pretty sure it will keep getting orders for years to come, if only a trickle.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 22, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 36109 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):
it's going to be tough
selling 748s.

Add in the fact that Airbus only got 9 orders for the A380 last year, and haven't landed any so far this year, and it begins to look as if four-engine types are just plain 'out of date'?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 628 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 35931 times:

There will be no type savior like Delta for MD-90s? No one wants to accumulate cheap middle-aged A340s?

User currently offlinerotating14 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 542 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 35803 times:

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 12):
I wouldn't be surprised to see re-engining programs being instituted in the future. By this I mean that after 10 years or so, the engines get swapped out for more efficient models while the fuselage remains in service.

I'm sure as big as Airbus is, they probably rolled that idea around with other possible solutions but the fact remains. The aviation community, insiders and outsiders, now know it had its chance. Gotta move on, cut your losses.

What surprises me more is the fact that with all the assumed gov't oversight, how could they give out those resale guarantees like that. So we know of Singapore. Who else received these resale guarantees like the ones mentioned?? They had to have known that you cant bet on resale values so far in the future. But I'm sure they have learned from this and going forward t'll be better for them.


25 YXD172 : I wonder if the guarantees that Airbus offered for the A340's resale value may have accelerated their retirements? I'm sure there's a point where Air
26 DocLightning : I don't understand. My understanding is that newer aircraft are less and less expensive to operate but more and more expensive to buy. They are not g
27 Post contains images lightsaber : From the OP, link, its not as bad as I feared: EADS has set aside more than $1 billion to cover guarantees on its products, the company said in its 20
28 Stitch : I don't see the business case for a re-engine of the A340 - the engines could be worth more than the frame.
29 Prost : Okay, this ship has sailed, but maybe someone can tell me why it's a poor idea.: Instead of DL refurbishing its 16 747-451s (oldest built in 1989) cou
30 Lufthansa : Lightsaber any insight into how much fuel the 346 saves over the 744. I'm getting the impression not a great deal?
31 zeke : It is not, all of the leased A346s from CX found new homes, look how many 744s, and even fairly recently converted 744BCFs CX has scrapped in the las
32 Max Q : Interesting that Airbus tried to compete with the 777 by using two Aircraft, the 330 / 340. This was not a winning strategy for them. Now they are goi
33 lightsaber : I worked on an A346 GTF proposal. Due to the weight of the airframe, we couldn't make the numbers work. At some point the A340 has to pay for every a
34 Aquila3 : Assuming that you are right that Airbus made the 330/340 only to compete with the 777 (and conveniently forgetting the 767) I would say that the 330
35 zeke : Rewriting history to suit yourself ? The A330/A340 was launched before the 777 was. No the 744 is not doing well, care to share your substance to sup
36 Post contains images mandala499 : I am sure the 343s still have some more years ahead of them than the 345/346. Operating 343s profitably is a lot easier than 346s. The 343s is compet
37 Aesma : Banks being banks. Governments being naive. To this day France and Germany are still trying to shield their banks from more oversight, while claiming
38 RickNRoll : I liked my A340 ride to Thailand more than the delayed (due to some mechanical problems) return flight on a 747. The A340 is a good customer experien
39 francoflier : But that's the interesting point. The difference between buying a $20 million A346 and a $250 million A35J (which you'll get in 7 years) will make up
40 AirbusA6 : Is this one of those situations where neither Airbus nor Boeing want cheap A345/6s out there as competition for their newer models, as I would very ha
41 Post contains images frigatebird : But LH is already planning to order a replacement for the whole fleet of A346s this year... Mr. AAB himself quite often I guess, probably when the as
42 RomeoBravo : The A330 and A340 are the same aircraft for all intent and purposes. Sales speak differently i would argue. The A340NGs would done alright if fuel pr
43 jfk777 : The lack of fuel economy by the A340 is sad because its a beautiful airplane. What has killed the A340-300 is the A330-300, as the two engine brother
44 bennett123 : It looks as if those of us who have never flown on an A340 may need to get a move on.
45 airbazar : What exactly is a "big A340"? LOL Where is the news on this article? They're not saying anything new. I have a message for the WSJ: 2005 called, they
46 waly777 : Indeed, I've always wanted to fly either the 340-500 or 600. Seems LH or VS would be a good choice for a few more years @ least. I've always thought
47 OldAeroGuy : One piece of news in the article is: "The 777 is "a much better airplane," Airbus Chief Commercial Officer John Leahy conceded at a conference earlie
48 Post contains links and images lightsaber : Years ago when discussing A346 economics, the point was made that the 744s would be retired first. Now it isn't that the 744s aren't being retired, b
49 Post contains images francoflier : The WSJ mostly hates everything that comes from Europe. With the A350 coming under the spotlight, the sarcastic and caustic side of me wants to say t
50 Polot : Most people in the US don't even know, or frankly care, that the A350 was about to fly (considering that it occurred at an inconvenient hour in the U
51 DUSint : But since when do we count anything Leahy says as "newsworthy"? I am puzzled, because every time he says something aimed to tease a competitor, it is
52 Post contains images airbazar : That is irrelevant. The people at the WSJ clearly know about the A350 FF and that is all that matters. They have their agenda and they will take it u
53 Post contains links zeke : The 744 are being retired first and rapidly at the moment, who has scrapped a A346 so far (not due to an accident, for pure commercial reasons) ? Sor
54 Revelation : Very good summary, but you should mention that Airbus itself is one of the aggrieved parties. At least the current Airbus is being victimized by its
55 MIflyer12 : There are hundreds of commercial air carriers worldwide - over 200 as parties to IATA. Lots of those operate long-haul fleets that would be candidate
56 Post contains images lightsaber : So did I, interesting. They're being returned to Airbus and sitting... same thing. Just delaying the inevitable. I've seen 744s change hands (ok, not
57 MIflyer12 : Fuel prices were rising pretty steadily between 2002 and 2006, but it was the spike of late-2007/2008, and sustained prices of $90+/barrel throughout
58 Revelation : And that's what is of interest to WSJ readers, although it's interesting how so many want to come up with conspiracy theories...
59 warreng24 : It takes a lot to admit something like this about a competitor's product. "[The 777 is} a much better airplane," Airbus Chief Commercial Officer John
60 Stitch : While it is true that 747-400s are being pulled from revenue service, are any of them 2002 or later deliveries?
61 OldAeroGuy : Considering that 744's can have 10 or more years service than A346's that's hardly surprising. You're comparing 20yo airplanes with 10yo's. Great Zek
62 airbazar : Sorry, who in 2005 following the EIS of the 77W (and probably even earlier than that, did not know that the way of the future was going to be large t
63 flybynight : The 777 is "a much better airplane," Airbus Chief Commercial Officer John Leahy conceded Wow!! I have enjoyed flying on SK's 343's over the years, but
64 zeke : Well the argument then is where are all these A340s available ? The early A340s etc are getting on now, and equipment wise will need money spent on t
65 NorthStarDC4M : Airbus really just got unlucky that the GE90-110/115 ended up being such a reliable efficient engine and the Trent 500 basically couldn't improve enou
66 BestWestern : Hainan air took a half dozen CX A346s which are used on longer domestic and international services.
67 dennys : It is a pretty good things the A340 is still flying . For long haul jets specially on South Hemispere i ' d rather feel safer on this beauty Quad ! A3
68 SCL767 : SK recently took delivery of the oldest A343 that flew for LAN (LN-RKP). LAN will phase out another A343 during the next few weeks; thus terminating
69 Ferroviarius : I personally do prefer 2-4-2 vs. 3-3-3, 2-5-2 or 3-4-3. Moreover, the 340s are much more silent than the 777s or 744s. So, whenever possible, I avoid
70 SEPilot : The only saving grace is that so few 748i's have been sold. Simple. The 744 has in the past been in high demand for freighter conversions. With the a
71 OldAeroGuy : Well, the market place is pretty good one where the 773ER has out sold the A346 at a nearly 7:1 ratio. The conclusion to the article you quoted was t
72 OldAeroGuy : He means the A343's Boeing took for the 772ER's they sold SQ. The article talks about the A345's that SQ is returning to Airbus.
73 airbazar : "Some" smart airline has an entire fleet of them and making tons of money with them for that same reason: Lufthansa.
74 atomsareenough : I am a little bit surprised that if these relatively new, high capacity aircraft are selling resale for just $20M, that some airline won't just snap t
75 SEPilot : OK, I got it wrong. FTA: "China Eastern Airlines Corp. 600115.SH +0.34% last year persuaded Boeing to buy its five A340-600s as part of a deal to sel
76 cslusarc : Personally, I think that DL is the carrier that will pick up some used A340-300s/500s/600s if it can get an awesome price to fund further nonstop int
77 NeutronStar73 : Because, if you are an A340 fan who says it has everything over the 777, then you've literally "lost the plot." And to continually defend it in the f
78 FirstClass : I find the timing of the article very interesting. Today is all about the 350s first flight, the fact that A345/6 struggle to find buyers is old news
79 dfambro : Does Airbus get a free pass today on all issues because of the 350? And anyway, the 350 first flight isn't news because even enthusiasts have known f
80 lastrow : Spiegel Online presented the same WSJ Article (translated) and subtitled this: "A350 Predecessor: Which Problems Airbus has had with the A340" -> A
81 NeutronStar73 : I have no clue about that either, but the following: Is just plainly ridiculous and fanboy paranoia An "agenda"? Come on. While I'm asking; what woul
82 Polot : Lufthansa isn't making money with the A340 because of their cheap acquisition costs...all of theirs were delivered new (at least the A340NGs, they mi
83 peterinlisbon : I guess if the lease values are very low now, then they would be useful for routes with a lot of down time (say a couple of aircraft flying long-haul
84 multimark : What is the highest density configuration for an A346?
85 Polot : It is true that the A340 is attractive for that role. But the problem is (other than the fact that many VIP buyers suffer from shiny jet syndrome) th
86 Post contains links and images lightsaber : It should be noted the A346 is now competing with a 10-across Y 77W. That makes a significant competitive difference. And as I noted before, aircraft
87 dennys : LAN will phase out another A343 during the next few weeks; thus terminating A343 service to MAD/FRA." Well , AF . LH IB CX , CI SA , MK and others ar
88 Post contains images KELPkid : Really? Either aircraft requires (A330 or A340) requires a very expensive major modification to turn it into a freighter, all because the designers s
89 Post contains images mandala499 : None of the SQ A343s went to the scrappers (which you know by now, but this is for the benefit of others). 9V-SJA, B and C went to Cathay. SJG, H, I,
90 SCL767 : LAN will only retain two A343s to operate the SCL-AKL-SYD route. However by the end of 2014, they will be phased out of the fleet.
91 KC135TopBoom : The B-747-400 (all models) out sold the A-340 (all models) nearly 2:1, 694 for the B-744 vs. 377 for the A-340. The base pax model B-747-400 alone ou
92 trex8 : The recent CI order for 77Ws with 8 to be delivered in 2014 is to initially replace the A343 and then as A359s join the fleet these will take the pla
93 brilondon : No they won't. They are buying used aircraft that fit into their current structure to replace older, less efficient types. The A340-300/500/600 would
94 CF-CPI : As measured in seat mile costs, assuming a standard mix of business/economy? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the assertion, but I'd be curious t
95 Viscount724 : LX still has a few routes beyond the A333s economic range such as ZRH-SIN/BKK/GRU/SFO/LAX.[Edited 2013-06-14 17:02:15]
96 Post contains links Viscount724 : They do throw away cars in the Gulf, often very expensive ones. http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-n.../abandoned-the-dream-cars-of-dubai http://www.
97 Post contains images Stitch : That's a saving grace? Exit Limit for an A340-600 is 440 per the Type Certificate. Airbus Freighter Conversion Vice-President of Marketing and Sales
98 LTBEWR : Let us not forget the expected long term continuing higher fuel prices along with mx costs for 4 vs. 2 (and 3 with the DC-10/MD-11 series) engines and
99 DocLightning : Mr. Leahy has nothing to gain from knocking the 77W as opposed to the A346. The A340 is no longer for sale. And he knows that if he tries to imply th
100 Lufthansa : Well what about a conversion for both types for use as a military Tanker? You could then basically make the entire fleet either VIP aircraft for gove
101 Polot : I'm not sure Airbus would be keen on competition with their A330MRTT. They want governments buying new tankers/transporters, not buying and convertin
102 Post contains images mffoda : If we go back to original article? The financials regarding any new Military project based on the A340, as you suggest Lufthansa... Would rise a Gian
103 Post contains images Revelation : Not exactly a gaping wide open market, is it? Or the unchanging reality that the A340 has been weight challenged since launch, and has only been viab
104 tortugamon : Very true. I saw that special a couple months back. So sad. They leave the keys in them often with sorry notes to the bank and what not. I am not sur
105 Pacific : The A340-500/600 are indeed very heavy but the A340-300 is lighter than the 777-200ER.
106 Post contains links lastrow : to add here: basically, low acquisition cost can offset higher MRO and fuel cost. Read this thread, especially post 30: Why Are Cargo Aircraft So Old
107 Polot : Although it is important to note that many of the larger cargo airlines are moving more and more towards new freighters.
108 mandala499 : For an operations feasibility study about 5 years ago I did a no-fancy stuff 2 class layout, and a mission requirement of filling all the seats and g
109 waly777 : It can be so when fuel isn't as expensive as it is today, however with crude oil forecasted to hit the $200 mark in the next 10 years, the advantage
110 frmrCapCadet : Would these 340s function economically as a reserve fleet for emergencies? How few flights a month to keep the planes and air force reserve crew membe
111 Polot : Waaaaaaayyyyyy to much to be worth it. How often do you need a hundred (!) extra (VLA) planes on reserve? You named two situations that might tie up
112 Revelation : I was thinking about the A345/6 when I typed that, but didn't make that clear at all, sorry.. I'm not that surprised the 7772ER is heavier than the A
113 DocLightning : Agreed. He admitted the A346 wasn't up to the mark, but claims that the A350 is. And it is. It's ten years newer than the 77W and made of CFRP with t
114 lastrow : prediction of prices is hard. I wish I could. But USD 200 in 10 years appears unlikely given today's situation and current long term forecasts. Did y
115 Post contains images lastrow : Well, it seems to me that your idea is not too far fetched: Did you consider how much it costs to keep all the military airlift capacity in the world
116 Post contains links waly777 : Indeed, however the OECD and IMF are predicting very high prices...the OECD forecast from March this year is predicting $190 a barrel in 7 years. htt
117 Post contains images lightsaber : You have a valid point there. Ironic that the older A340 looks destined to outlast the 'new' A340. But the 744 does require quite a bit of maintenanc
118 Stitch : But that post also notes that freighters are low-utilization compared to passenger aircraft. Older freighters also operate shorter stage lengths.
119 lastrow : right, I agree, I was also adding this link to you mentioning before a potential A340P2F conversion program. I have checked google before I posted my
120 dennys : .... A340 Lover , , GOOD NEWS for you ! EY is flying AUH - GRU using the Quad on its right Hauls ! Cheers
121 waly777 : Indeed it was, a surprise order to an extent for me. Though with Aerologic already flying 777's, it wasn't entirely unexpected. Certainly agree with
122 Post contains images mandala499 : With hindsight it may not have been the best of moves to use the Trent but what choice did they have? Or was it? That I wonder... I wonder what GE wa
123 astuteman : I've got to say that I think history will mark the A340NG down as a mistake (THE mistake) by Airbus. As it was part of the A330/A340 development, I d
124 mandala499 : How would one rate the 342 then? Only 28 were produced.
125 CF-CPI : My impression is that the early A340-600s were overweight, and this little detail really put Airbus behind the 8-ball as far as early perceptions of
126 Stitch : Sounds about right for an early C-Market/ULH airframe, which the A340-200 effectively was.
127 waly777 : To be fair, I don't think Boeing quite expected the 77L/W to perform as well as it did. I remember the original range of the 77W was meant to be arou
128 Stitch : If we review the PDF zeke linked to in Reply 53, the projected range for the 777-300ER's with Maximum Structural Payload was 4850nm, which was almost
129 LH707330 : The Superfan was supposed to be a geared engine with wide-chord composite fan blades, a nice idea at the time but too much risk. When it flopped they
130 Post contains images lightsaber : The original A340 did an excellent job of getting Airbus into longhaul, but also getting their foot in the door to sell A330s. It didn't hurt that be
131 Post contains links Stitch : When Airbus issued RFPs to the three engine manufacturers, P&W responded with the PW8000 GTF. P&W had originally aimed the PW8000 at the A320
132 lightsaber : RR was granted exclusivity. I was working at Pratt on the PW8063 for the A345/A346 and A305 at the time. Pratt would have trailed RR into service (20
133 SEPilot : But the 77L was also the basis for the 77F, which has been successful and is likely to sell a lot more before it's done, so that improves its case ov
134 Revelation : They had the choice to not go forward with the -5/-6. They probably had an inkling that the numbers were good but not great for the program, but it s
135 SEPilot : I agree that the VLA was the bigger mistake, and probably the result of looking at the demand figures through rose-colored glasses-after all, Boeing
136 mandala499 : No need to go the 77W... even the 773 had a better trip burn number for the shorter sectors. And simple payload burn projections (that went higher th
137 EPA001 : I have to disagree strongly here. The original numbers of the business case for the A380 have already been exceeded (250 sold A380's). Of course the
138 waly777 : I do not believe 250 is quite the right number. When the A380 was launched, Airbus did predict far more than 250 A380's would be sold by this point (
139 EPA001 : Of course they did. And there is still every reason to think that a program which should run at least for 30 years will exceed the current number of
140 Post contains images lightsaber : Agreed. Now with the 707, the 707-320C was the best selling variant thanks to the ability to be converted to a freighter. Since I am convinced there
141 Stitch : I think they were worried by the 777. In 1996 Airbus studied stretching the A340-300 by 12 frames to create the A340-400. Range at MZFW dropped from
142 LH707330 : Ironically not very many of them were though.... What was the weight penalty between a 320C and a 320B advanced?
143 Post contains links and images lightsaber : Ironic, but still effective sales. Per page #9 the weight difference in operating empty weight is 155,100lbm for the -320C and 148,800lbm for the -32
144 SEPilot : What about the problem of the floor beams? Are they going to go for a low-density conversion without changing them, or a high-cost standard density c
145 KC135TopBoom : The B-707-320C was built with a cargo floor and cargo door already installed. The B-707-320B did not have these features. Airbus has not had a succes
146 Klaus : I doubt very much that they're selling the A380 below production cost. What you seem to be talking about is that they haven't reached break even yet,
147 Stitch : If FX and 5X can use the 777-200 with the existing CFRP floor, I could see that conversion being pushed through first, either by Boeing or Bedek/IAI.
148 Post contains links waly777 : No, I was very clear...each a380 being delivered today is loss making. Development and introduction costs will not be covered in it's original value
149 Post contains images Klaus : Hmmm... what I've found so far seems to include the extraordinary and one-time cost incurred by the wing repairs and the resulting production slowdow
150 Post contains images Stitch : The OEMs themselves appear to consider those legitimate costs to apply to each production frame so I follow their lead. That being said, I am sure ma
151 Post contains links and images mffoda : No Klaus, They are talking about production costs. the original quote of a projection break-even point was made in 2010 by Airbus, and that assumed t
152 Post contains images lightsaber : Ok, I'm feeling guilt... This is getting off thread. For its gone to P2Fs... and that is not a market for the A340 IMHO. Interesting. I hope the conve
153 Post contains images astuteman : That's the point though. They wouldn't. There's no way that the A380 would have been brought to market in the timeframe it was if Airbus had committe
154 Klaus : That target doesn't seem to have shifted since, however – it has staid on in statements as late as late 2012 at the least, despite the wing rib iss
155 lastrow : I am sorry to add some continuation off the thread topic, but the recent discussion about the break even of the A380 and the A340 development includin
156 Stitch : The real "cash cow" for Boeing are the hundreds of 737NGs they deliver each year at margins Bloomberg feels could be upwards of 20%. In comparison, t
157 LH707330 : Bingo, and in the 90s the cash cow was the 767-300ER, which Airbus ended up killing with the A330, which became the new widebody cash cow of the earl
158 Post contains images columba : The A330/A340 were launched before the 777, the only competitioner back then was the MD 11 He was refering to the A340-600 and 777-300ER, not the A34
159 lastrow : On, I am sorry, maybe I did not make myself clear because obviously I am not a native English speaker. I wrote "one" instead of "only" or "single" or
160 lastrow : Are you sure it was meant this way? I remember the discussion at LH in the other way, i.e. the intention of buying Boeing instead of Airbus, saying l
161 PRAirbus : Well, there's always Aerolineas Argentinas. They might be glad to grab second hand A340s and then make a big deal about it on their local press announ
162 Post contains links seahawk : First off all the problem is not so much about the aircraft, it describes something that can hit any aircraft, should the market change more quickly t
163 OldAeroGuy : Yes, if you like reading 12 year old articles that use payload-range information that never was correct for the 773ER. Initial design range was 7500n
164 SEPilot : There was a documentary about the 747 in the 90's that quoted the Boeing project manager when it was built (Stemper) that it was (at the time of the
165 LH707330 : I think that may have referred to the overall program earnings. I read in Boeing versus Airbus (great book btw) that the 767-300ER was the big earner
166 columba : Back then the 777W was not succesful as it was today and Airbus was leading in sales. LH thought of an order to support Boeing but decided against it
167 seahawk : I had no intention to present the data given their as valid. However it is still interesting to see the influence of the hot and high scenario on the
168 OldAeroGuy : And even there the article has problems since 773ER flight test takeoff performance is better than the pre-flight levels shown. You shouldn't believe
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