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A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted  
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1015 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13829 times:
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The early predictions were that LAX, LHR and CDG would get the most A380 flights by foreign airlines....

Followed by a second of group, JFK, FRA, SYD and NRT

LAX will have 7 by the end of this year:

Korean
Singapore
China Southern
Qantas
AF
BA
Emirates

How are LHR and CDG doing?

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13677 times:

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
How are LHR and CDG doing?

I believe by the end of the year LHR will have:

BA
EK
QF
MH
SQ
and I believe TG

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...eraircraft/a380family/a380-routes/

[Edited 2013-06-15 02:42:58]


Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently offlinesantos From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 741 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13660 times:

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
How are LHR

Currently 26 routes, 4 airlines. With BA and TG starting flights later on this year.


London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB), EK008, 09:10 - 20:00 h
Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), EK007, 03:10 - 07:05 h

London (LHR) - Singapore (SIN), SQ317, 10:55 - 07:35 h (+1)
Singapore (SIN) - London (LHR), SQ318, 12:55 - 18:55 h

London (LHR) - Kuala Lumpur (KUL), MH003, 12:00 - 07:25h (+1) (1/3/6)
Kuala Lumpur (KUL) - London (LHR), MH002, 23:40 - 05:50 h (+1) (2/5/7)

London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB), EK002, 13:45 - 00:25 h (+1)
Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), EK001, 07:45 - 11:35 h

London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB), EK030, 16:35 – 03:25 h (+1)
Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), EK029, 09:40 – 13:30 h

London (LHR) - Singapore (SIN), SQ319, 18:30 - 15:20 h (+1)
Singapore (SIN) - London (LHR), SQ308, 09:05 - 15:30 h

London (LHR) - Singapore (SIN), SQ305, 20:00 - 15:50 h (+1) (2/3/4)
Singapore (SIN) - London (LHR), SQ306, 23:45 - 06:20 h (+1) (1/2/3)

London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB), EK004, 20:40 - 06:30 h (+1)
Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), EK003, 14:15 - 18:40 h

London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB) - Sydney (SYD), QF002, 21:30 - 05:10 h (+2)
-> London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB), QF002, 21:30 - 07:15 h (+1)
Sydney (SYD) - Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), QF001, 16:05 - 06:35 h (+1)
-> Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), QF001, 02:05 - 06:35 h

London (LHR) - Kuala Lumpur (KUL), MH001, 22:00 - 18:20 h (+1)
Kuala Lumpur (KUL) - London (LHR), MH004, 10:45 - 16:15 h

London (LHR) - Singapore (SIN), SQ321, 22:05 - 18:45 h (+1)
Singapore (SIN) - London (LHR), SQ322, 23:45 - 05:45 h (+1)

London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB), EK006, 22:15 – 08:05 h (+1)
Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), EK005, 15:45 – 20:15 h

London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB) - Melbourne (MEL), QF010, 22:30 - 05:15 h (+2)
-> London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB) , QF010, 22:30 - 08:15 h (+1)
Melbourne (MEL) - Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), QF009, 15:25 - 05:40 h (+1)
-> Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), QF009, 01:10 - 05:40 h


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12780 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13597 times:
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Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 1):
I believe by the end of the year LHR will have:

He did say "foreign airlines", so you'd have to drop BA from the LHR list.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2553 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13062 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 3):
He did say "foreign airlines", so you'd have to drop BA from the LHR list.   

Well, BA is a foreign airline for a US poster . . .   



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlineraaadek From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 12033 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 1):
http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...eraircraft/a380family/a380-routes/

Any reason why EK was not mentioned in the brief history of A380 on Airbus website?


User currently onlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3274 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11508 times:

But which airport has the most A380 movements a day? DXB.


come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineYYZAMS From Canada, joined Feb 2011, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10644 times:

Quoting PW100 (Reply 4):

yes, and I guess to a US poster only foreign airlines have the A380.


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9211 times:
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Quoting motorhussy (Reply 6):
DXB has the most A380 movements? A380 movements mean nothing to me....

An airport/market can prove its weight by how many foreign airlines service it and type of aircraft they use to that airport (LAX, LHR, CDG, NRT etc), NOT by how many movements a subsidized airline can operate at its hub

[Edited 2013-06-15 23:55:47]

User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 868 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8153 times:

Quoting PW100 (Reply 4):
Well, BA is a foreign airline for a US poster . . .

Given that BAs parent IAG is a listed company and has sizeable Spanish and other non UK shareholders you could argue that BA is at least an International or even a foreign airline from a UK [but not EU] perspective - but that's a whole big argument we don't want to get into on a Sunday morning....


User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7970 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 3):
He did say "foreign airlines", so you'd have to drop BA from the LHR list.
Quoting PW100 (Reply 4):
Well, BA is a foreign airline for a US poster . . .
Quoting jumpjets (Reply 9):
Given that BAs parent IAG is a listed company and has sizeable Spanish and other non UK shareholders you could argue that BA is at least an International or even a foreign airline from a UK [but not EU] perspective - but that's a whole big argument we don't want to get into on a Sunday morning....

Thank you for the support jumpjets, but regrettably it was more of me quickly reading what A380s were landing at an airport (totally missing the foreign airlines bit).

Weirdly though, I have lived in London for 2.5 years, and I still consider BA a foreign airline. It is hard to give up what you know to be domestic/foreign.

Regards,

Team



Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7892 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 8):
An airport/market can prove its weight by how many foreign airlines service it and type of aircraft they use to that airport

I have followed your approach and made a list of all the destinations served by A380 operators at today's date June 16th, 2013.
This list is subject to change in the next months (with BA introducing the aircraft in its fleet, AF ceasing A380 service to SIN and starting service to PVG, LH resuming MIA for the winter season, etc.)
I have included CZ domestic operations from CAN, but not included the hubs from where a given airline operates its A380 routes (ie CAN for CZ, FRA for LH, SYD for QF, etc).



A380 MAIN DESTINATIONS :
---------------------------------------------


HKG - 6 (SQ, EK, QF, KE, MH, TG)

LAX - 5 (SQ, QF, AF, KE, CZ)

CDG - 4 (SQ, EK, MH, TG)
JFK - 4 (SQ, EK, AF, KE)
LHR - 4 (SQ, EK, QF, MH)
NRT - 4 (SQ, AF, LH, TG)

FRA - 3 (SQ, KE, TG)
PEK - 3 (EK, LH, CZ)
SIN - 3 (EK, AF, LH)

JNB - 2 (AF, LH)
MEL - 2 (SQ, EK)
PVG - 2 (EK, CZ)
SFO - 2 (SQ, LH)
SYD - 2 (SQ, EK)

AKL - 1 (EK)
AMS - 1 (EK)
BKK - 1 (EK)
DME - 1 (EK)
DXB - 1 (QF)
FCO - 1 (EK)
IAD - 1 (AF)
IAH - 1 (LH)
ICN - 1 (EK)
JED - 1 (EK)
KUL - 1 (EK)
MAN - 1 (EK)
MUC - 1 (EK)
ZRH - 1 (SQ)

Please do correct me if I am wrong.
On a side note, we could draw some interesting geopolitical conclusions from this list and how it evolves in the future  

[Edited 2013-06-16 03:00:14]


I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently onlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5760 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7783 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
I have included CZ domestic operations from AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN, but not included the hubs from where a given airline operates its A380 routes (ie AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN for CZ, FRA for LH, SYD for QF, etc).

Ok it's debatable but you should include QF @ MEL, its not usually regarded as an international hub (just ask the Victorians!). I believe the A380 aircraft USUALLY operate SYD-DXB-LHR-DXB-MEL-DXB-LHR-DXB-SYD AND SYD-LAX-MEL-LAX-SYD.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7718 times:
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Quoting Azure (Reply 11):

Thanks that's what I was looking for.


User currently offlineSFJeff From El Salvador, joined Dec 2009, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7343 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
Please do correct me if I am wrong.

One addition: SFO -1 (LH).



Jeff in San Salvador
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7282 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 8):
An airport/market can prove its weight by how many foreign airlines service it and type of aircraft

A very strange yardstick. In my book it is measured on the number of passengers. Don't care if the airline is domestic or foreign and don't care what equipment they use.

Quoting g500 (Reply 8):
NOT by how many movements a subsidized airline can operate at its hub

Love to see your support for claiming EK is subsidized.


User currently onlineMiami From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 1915 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7151 times:
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Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
Please do correct me if I am wrong.

MIA -1 (LH)



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6584 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 12):
it's debatable but you should include QF @ MEL

It is debatable indeed but MEL is not a destination per se from SYD, ie QF's hub...



Quoting SFJeff (Reply 14):

SFO is already included in the list and it is served by 2 carriers, LH and SQ !



Quoting Miami (Reply 16):

This list includes only flights at today's date. MIA is serviced seasonally by LH. Please read my post entirely !



Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
A very strange yardstick. In my book it is measured on the number of passengers. Don't care if the airline is domestic or foreign and don't care what equipment they use.

The purpose of this thread was to find out which airports were getting the most A380 flights.



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3398 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6353 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
Please do correct me if I am wrong.

YYZ - 1 (EK)
YUL - 1 (AF)



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13416 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 6157 times:
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First, Airbus' recent update on their A380 flying map:
http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...eraircraft/a380family/a380-routes/

Obviously updated for Paris.  

If we're going to go off predictions, here is the original 'official' one. Now this 2007 Airbus presentation on where the A380 would fly (note: pdf):

http://www.mp.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Sc...de/2007/EWADE2007_Schmitt_A380.pdf

Comparing to page #13,
1. Indeed, zero A380 flights to South America
2. Australia to Asia is light (only HKG-SYD so far)
3. No flights yet to quite a few destinations.

One thing that stands out is that A380 production was supposed to be at a vastly higher rate than we've witnessed.   Partially as delays pushed the A380F operators to other pastures.

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
In my book it is measured on the number of passengers. Don't care if the airline is domestic or foreign and don't care what equipment they use.

   It is about connections and frequency.

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
Quoting g500 (Reply 8):
NOT by how many movements a subsidized airline can operate at its hub

Love to see your support for claiming EK is subsidized.

I too would like to see evidence of EK's 'subsidy.' If anything, they are keeping broke Dubai afloat! G500, please read their annual reports.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinetsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 6122 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
JFK - 4 (SQ, EK, AF, KE)

JFK also gets the LH 380 at least part of the year


User currently offlinePhilInBRN From Switzerland, joined Jun 2009, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 6006 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
ZRH - 1 (SQ)

ZRH will get a second A380 service in January 2014 when EK will change from 77W to A380 on the afternoon flight to DXB. I don't expect to see any other foreign airline to begin A380 service to Zurich in the short/medium term. The most likely candidate would be TG, but that would be a very long stretch since they only use their A346 to ZRH. But who knows what QR is up to in the next decade.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25838 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 5998 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
Please do correct me if I am wrong.

YYZ - 1 (EK)
YUL - 1 (AF)

AF is not operating the A380 to YUL currently. Their schedule shows 3 daily CDG-YUL: one 744, one 77W, one A343. I think the A380 has far too many premium seats for YUL in the summer which is largely low-yield leisure traffic.


User currently offlineSFJeff From El Salvador, joined Dec 2009, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 5805 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 17):
SFO is already included in the list and it is served by 2 carriers, LH and SQ !

Sorry; I overlooked that. However, SQ is not currently operating A380s to SFO. According to the SQ website. SQ1 and SQ15 are both 777-300ER. IIRC, SQ operated the A380 to SFO only for a short time last winter as a seasonal change.



Jeff in San Salvador
User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 5511 times:

LH only flies their A380 into SFO seasonally, ~ March to December. AF flew in their A 380 for one Summer and has not flown in for the past two Summers. SQ flew their A 380 to SFO last Winter for ~ 4 months. No word if they plan on returning for W13.

Rumor, EK will start A 380 service 3/14.



John@SFO
User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5282 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
YYZ - 1 (EK)

Correct. My mistake !


Quoting SFJeff (Reply 23):
According to the SQ website. SQ1 and SQ15 are both 777-300ER. IIRC, SQ operated the A380 to SFO only for a short time last winter as a seasonal change.

  


So the table after correction stands as follows :



A380 MAIN DESTINATIONS :
---------------------------------------------


HKG - 6 (SQ, EK, QF, KE, MH, TG)

LAX - 5 (SQ, QF, AF, KE, CZ)

CDG - 4 (SQ, EK, MH, TG)
JFK - 4 (SQ, EK, AF, KE)
LHR - 4 (SQ, EK, QF, MH)
NRT - 4 (SQ, AF, LH, TG)

FRA - 3 (SQ, KE, TG)
PEK - 3 (EK, LH, CZ)
SIN - 3 (EK, AF, LH)

JNB - 2 (AF, LH)
MEL - 2 (SQ, EK)
PVG - 2 (EK, CZ)
SYD - 2 (SQ, EK)

AKL - 1 (EK)
AMS - 1 (EK)
BKK - 1 (EK)
DME - 1 (EK)
DXB - 1 (QF)
FCO - 1 (EK)
IAD - 1 (AF)
IAH - 1 (LH)
ICN - 1 (EK)
JED - 1 (EK)
KUL - 1 (EK)
MAN - 1 (EK)
MUC - 1 (EK)
SFO - 1 (LH)
YYZ - 1 (EK)
ZRH - 1 (SQ)


I suggest we keep this chart updated every six months.



Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
If we're going to go off predictions, here is the original 'official' one. Now this 2007 Airbus presentation on where the A380 would fly (note: pdf):

http://www.mp.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Sc...de/2007/EWADE2007_Schmitt_A380.pdf

Comparing to page #13,
1. Indeed, zero A380 flights to South America
2. Australia to Asia is light (only HKG-SYD so far)
3. No flights yet to quite a few destinations.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
If we're going to go off predictions, here is the original 'official' one. Now this 2007 Airbus presentation on where the A380 would fly (note: pdf):

http://www.mp.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Sc...de/2007/EWADE2007_Schmitt_A380.pdf

Comparing to page #13,
1. Indeed, zero A380 flights to South America
2. Australia to Asia is light (only HKG-SYD so far)
3. No flights yet to quite a few destinations.

Thanks. Quite an interesting presentation indeed.
Airbus was probably optimistic about the number of destinations served.
Instead airlines seem:
- to concentrate their ops to a few hubs.
- send the whale to premium markets and not to leisure destinations.


1. South America : Both EK and AF are rumored to serve GRU with an A380 as from 2014
2. Add PVG-SYD later this year
3. French or British West Indies / Reunion (UU) or Mauritius and North / Central America are not served at all or not as well served as expected (yet ?)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3450 posts, RR: 11
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5121 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
First, Airbus' recent update on their A380 flying map

It looks like JFK, LAX, and NRT have a significant number of A380 movements yet no A380s call those airports home. Interesting.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
I too would like to see evidence of EK's 'subsidy.'

Well there was the original two aircraft and $10 Million in start-up capital back in 1985 that needs to be accounted for. No countries subsidize their airline fleet that much!    

tortugamon


User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5200 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 26):
It looks like JFK, LAX, and NRT have a significant number of A380 movements yet no A380s call those airports home. Interesting.

And how about mentioning HKG as well ?  



Quoting tortugamon (Reply 26):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
I too would like to see evidence of EK's 'subsidy.'

Well there was the original two aircraft and $10 Million in start-up capital back in 1985 that needs to be accounted for. No countries subsidize their airline fleet that much!    

Since EK has not been abiding by the IFRS norms so far, it is difficult to compare their accountings with their competitors'... However it is not doubtful EK has immensely benefitted from the credit export scheme granted by the aircraft manufacturing countries which has 1/eased access to financing and 2/ infuriated the European "Big Three" (AFKL/IAG/LH group), these latter not being allowed to use such scheme for their A380s purchase per an obscure WTO agreement dating from the 1980s...



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5067 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 17):
The purpose of this thread was to find out which airports were getting the most A380 flights.

Not a limit g500 respected in his comment that I responded to.

Quoting Azure (Reply 27):
Since EK has not been abiding by the IFRS norms so far, it is difficult to compare their accountings with their competitors'...

PwC put their name on a legal document stating they do.

"In our opinion, the accompanying consolidated financial statements present fairly, in
all material respects, the financial position of Emirates as of 31 March 2013, and its
financial performance and its cash flows for the year then ended in accordance with
International Financial Reporting Standards.

PricewaterhouseCoopers
5 May 2013

Warwick Hunt
Registered Auditor Number 643
Dubai, United Arab Emirates"
Emirates Annual Report 2012-2013, http://content.emirates.com/download...pdfs/report/annual_report_2013.pdf


User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5037 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 28):
Quoting Azure (Reply 27):
Since EK has not been abiding by the IFRS norms so far, it is difficult to compare their accountings with their competitors'...

PwC put their name on a legal document stating they do.

My bad ! And thanks for correcting me : I was forgetting the FY2013 was their first year to present accountings according to IFRS. Therefore you should read : "Since EK did not abide by the IFRS norms before 2013, it was difficult to compare their accountings with their competitors'.
However, the rest of my post remains valid and I maintain my statement on the credit export scheme.



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4980 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 29):
I was forgetting the FY2013 was their first year to present accountings according to IFRS. Therefore you should read : "Since EK did not abide by the IFRS norms before 2013, it was difficult to compare their accountings with their competitors'.

I only went back to 2008 but all of them are according to IFRS.


User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4673 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 30):
I only went back to 2008 but all of them are according to IFRS.

I double checked and I was wrong on this point. The rest is valid, again.



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4622 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 31):
The rest is valid, again.

What other than using the EXIM bank remains? And why is EK using EXIM a big issue?


User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4567 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 29):
However, the rest of my post remains valid and I maintain my statement on the credit export scheme.


We had that debate before. It is true that EK benefits from those credit export schemes. You may want to call that "subsidy" if you like.

But by that standard the majority of airlines in the world benefit from subsidies, as they all can benefit from credit export schemes. The only ones not to are in the EU and US if I remember your post in the other thread correctly.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13416 posts, RR: 100
Reply 34, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4429 times:
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Quoting Azure (Reply 25):
Airbus was probably optimistic about the number of destinations served.
Instead airlines seem:
- to concentrate their ops to a few hubs.
- send the whale to premium markets and not to leisure destinations.

They were also optimistic on number of airlines that took up the A388 and the production rate.

I still believe once A388 production is increased, sales will follow. But a few customers were missed, but there are opportunities (e.g., TK and GA).

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 26):
It looks like JFK, LAX, and NRT have a significant number of A380 movements yet no A380s call those airports home. Interesting.

   And as already noted HKG. IMHO GRU will be added to that list some day.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 26):
Well there was the original two aircraft and $10 Million in start-up capital back in 1985 that needs to be accounted for. No countries subsidize their airline fleet that much!

   EK wasn't 'babied' like QR and EY and IMHO they are stronger for it.

Quoting cmf (Reply 30):
I only went back to 2008 but all of them are according to IFRS.

Thank you. Very informative. Although IFRS has some more leeway than GAAP in certain areas... But is more definitive in others...

Quoting mozart (Reply 33):
Quoting Azure (Reply 29):
However, the rest of my post remains valid and I maintain my statement on the credit export scheme.


We had that debate before. It is true that EK benefits from those credit export schemes. You may want to call that "subsidy" if you lik

I too wonder how that is a subsidy. Europe and the USA offer good financing deals in trade for jobs. EK would be silly not to take advantage of those offers.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1724 posts, RR: 8
Reply 35, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4338 times:

At first glance, Arbus' map quoted by Lightsaber gives six destinations for LAX

User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 36, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4217 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 32):
What other than using the EXIM bank remains? And why is EK using EXIM a big issue?

To my knowledge,EXIM is not involved in the A380 case, but similar European Institutions (such as COFACE). Why is it a big issue ? Please ask Air France, Lufthansa, British Airways, Easyjet, Air Berlin, Iberia, Virgin Atlantic, Air Europa and Monarch which have jointly complained about a distortion of competition.


Quoting mozart (Reply 33):
You may want to call that "subsidy" if you like.
But by that standard the majority of airlines in the world benefit from subsidies, as they all can benefit from credit export schemes. The only ones not to are in the EU and US if I remember your post in the other thread correctly.

Yes you do remember correctly  
"Subsidy" would not be the appropriate wording, the case here deals with competition.


Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
Europe and the USA offer good financing deals in trade for jobs. EK would be silly not to take advantage of those offers.

Agreed. The question is not about EK (and many others as Mozart noted) getting these financial deals but about airlines from OEM countries (mainly the US, France, Germany, Spain and UK) not allowed to get them, which in their views results in a competitive distortion.


Quoting Aircellist (Reply 35):
At first glance, Arbus' map quoted by Lightsaber gives six destinations for LAX

The discrepancy comes from MEL by QF as noted by Gemuser (reply #12 & #17).



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1724 posts, RR: 8
Reply 37, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4129 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 36):
Quoting Aircellist (Reply 35):
At first glance, Arbus' map quoted by Lightsaber gives six destinations for LAX

The discrepancy comes from MEL by QF as noted by Gemuser (reply #12 & #17).

Sorry… Culpable of diagonal reading   


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3955 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 36):
To my knowledge,EXIM is not involved in the A380 case, but similar European Institutions (such as COFACE). Why is it a big issue ? Please ask Air France, Lufthansa, British Airways, Easyjet, Air Berlin, Iberia, Virgin Atlantic, Air Europa and Monarch which have jointly complained about a distortion of competition.

Don't think of EXIM as the US EXIM specifically but the function.

What those airlines think about EXIM used in selling airlines doesn't isn't relevant in the EK subsidy discussion.


User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 39, posted (1 year 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 3529 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 36):
Yes you do remember correctly  
"Subsidy" would not be the appropriate wording, the case here deals with competition.

Fine, then let me re-phrase it:

You can look at a doped Olympic athlet and a normal person and say "the doped athlet has an unfair competitive advantage (doping)". Or you can look at a normal person and someone in a wheelchair and say "the normal person has a competitive advantage (he can walk)".

The way you are turning this is that you paint EK as if they were a doped athlete, when in fact they are "normal" because they are in the same category as airlines from all but a handful countries in the world. Airlines from OEM countries are wheelchair-bound when it comes to aircraft financing, that is true. But that doesn't make normal walkers have a "unfair competitive disadvantage"


User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 10 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

Quoting mozart (Reply 39):
The way you are turning this is that you paint EK as if they were a doped athlete, when in fact they are "normal" because they are in the same category as airlines from all but a handful countries in the world. Airlines from OEM countries are wheelchair-bound when it comes to aircraft financing, that is true. But that doesn't make normal walkers have a "unfair competitive disadvantage"

Ok. I am taking your analogy : airlines from the OEM countries are athletes in a wheelchair, and all the others are not physically-challenged athletes. Nobody in their right state of mind would consider organizing a serious contest including the two groups. As a matter of fact, there are the Olympics for the latter and the Paralympics for the former. The trouble is that in the real world of commercial aviation, there is just one market where the two groups have to compete.
What I am mean is that airlines CEOs from the OEM countries do have a point when they talk about competitive distortion as they cannot benefit from the same financial scheme as their non OEM countries ' peers when they purchase aircraft.
It does not matter whether these latter are responsible or not for this situation.
It does not matter whether these latter are more numerous than the former.
You can disagree with me but this is just the reality. Sorry to bring this up again but it is time for some posters to realize that European airlines CEOs (and their American peers as well - such as DL) have a reason to be displeased, to say the least.



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13416 posts, RR: 100
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 2891 times:
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Quoting Azure (Reply 36):
Agreed. The question is not about EK (and many others as Mozart noted) getting these financial deals but about airlines from OEM countries (mainly the US, France, Germany, Spain and UK) not allowed to get them, which in their views results in a competitive distortion.

Ok. But the US and Europe excluded their own airlines from the deals. Its for the two to sit down and hash out rules... rules that would make life easier on Bombardier too!  
Quoting Azure (Reply 40):
Sorry to bring this up again but it is time for some posters to realize that European airlines CEOs (and their American peers as well - such as DL) have a reason to be displeased, to say the least.

I would be unhappy too. But Europe and US have done this to themselves. They could solve the problem... But create new ones. Are they willing to do so?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineglbltrvlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

I was surprised at the number of LHR A380s taxiing or at a gate that showed up in various wide shots during the recent Airport Live on BBC2. Mostly QANTAS and Singapore as I recall, but there were a few others.

User currently offlineFastphilly From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

LAX has quite a selection of Super Jumbos. I noticed LH isn't flying their big bird to LAX. I would imagine LAX could fill more passengers to FRA than SFO. Any reason why?

I've heard when EK gets more A380's in the fleet SFO could be a candidate for one.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 2776 times:

Can anyone tell me the numbers of A380 daily/weekly flights at each airport?

User currently offlineFastphilly From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 2757 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
A very strange yardstick. In my book it is measured on the number of passengers. Don't care if the airline is domestic or foreign and don't care what equipment they use.

Wrong. A market is indeed measured by the amount of Foreign carriers/equipment. Passenger counts isn't accurate to how strong a market is in an era of regional hubs. Just look at ATL, DEN, DFW and CLT as an example. Anywhere from 18 to 30% of those airports are O&D while the rest are connections.


User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 868 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 8 hours ago) and read 2704 times:

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 42):
I was surprised at the number of LHR A380s taxiing or at a gate that showed up in various wide shots during the recent Airport Live on BBC2

A high proportion of the 388 flights out of Heathrow leave between 8pm and 10pm - Both QFs daily 388 flights leave as do two of the SQs flights, 2 EKs and one MS - so the timing of the programme inadvertently gave a skewed picture of how much airport traffic is 388s.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 47, posted (1 year 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 2524 times:

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 45):
A market is indeed measured by the amount of Foreign carriers/equipment.

Then I'm sure you can provide published examples to support your claim. Because In my book a passenger is a passenger if they fly on a strong local carrier, a different domestic or a foreign carrier.


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 2474 times:
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Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 43):

LH flies the A380 to SFO and not LAX because SFO is United's major West coast hub


User currently offlineFastphilly From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 2285 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 47):
Then I'm sure you can provide published examples to support your claim. Because In my book a passenger is a passenger if they fly on a strong local carrier, a different domestic or a foreign carrier.

You will not find an airport/region with weak international service out perform an airport with both domestic and a strong international network. Perhaps you can give me an example?

[Edited 2013-06-24 18:53:07]

User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 50, posted (1 year 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 2254 times:

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 49):
You will not find an airport/region with weak international service out perform an airport with both domestic and a strong international network. Perhaps you can give me an example?

How is that confirmation of your statement that only international airlines count?


User currently offlineFastphilly From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 5 months ago) and read 2206 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 50):
How is that confirmation of your statement that only international airlines count?

There is a level of prestige/global importance that an airport/region receives when you see foreign tails from countries all over the world operating heavies as opposed to endless domestic RJ's and medium haul jets running domestic routes. International routes are far more profitable than domestic regional routes.

In the US. The highest premium yield markets are in this order:

New York
Los Angeles
Chicago
San Francisco
Washington DC


These five regions have no less than 25 foreign flags offering service because the business connections these regions possess are strong globally and attract a large amount of tourism.

Your hub airports host city like ATL, DEN, CLT and DFW that have larger passenger movements are more to do with the airline's route structure than the region itself. If Delta wasn't in ATL with their hub you'd be looking at passenger boarding's at around 21 million with limited international destinations. An airport is a reflection of the city/region it serves.

Delta could have had their hub in Augusta, GA and they still would have 60-70 million passenger boardings a year.

[Edited 2013-06-24 19:31:33]

When an airport can offer overseas flights to a destination by it's hub airline and at the same time support the same route from a non alliance competitor then that's a true barometer of how important your region is with the rest of the world. There are only a few in the US that can boast that claim.


[Edited 2013-06-24 19:42:46]

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2994 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months ago) and read 2132 times:

It's a bit messy, but looking at weekly operations:

HKG - 6 (46) - SQ (7), EK (14), QF (4), KE (7), MH (7), TG (7)

LAX - 5 (42) - SQ (7), QF (14), AF (7), KE (7), CZ (7)

CDG - 4 (35) - SQ (7), EK (14), MH (7), TG (7)
JFK - 4 (35) - SQ (7), EK (14), AF (7), KE (7)
LHR - 4 (84) - SQ (21), EK (35), QF (14), MH (14)
NRT - 4 (28) - SQ (7), AF (7), LH (7), TG (7)

FRA - 3 (21) - SQ (7), KE (7), TG (7)
PEK - 3 (28) - EK (7), LH (7), CZ (14)
SIN - 3 (21) - EK (7), AF (7), LH (7)

JNB - 2 (14) - AF (7), LH (7)
MEL - 2 (21) - SQ (14/7 from Jul 1), EK (7)
PVG - 2 (14) - EK (7), CZ (7)
SYD - 2 (28) - SQ (14), EK (14)

AKL - 1 (14) - EK (14)
AMS - 1 (7) - EK (7)
BKK - 1 (7) - EK (7)
DME - 1 (7) - EK (7)
DXB - 1 (14) - QF (14)
FCO - 1 (7) - EK (7)
IAD - 1 (7) - AF (7)
IAH - 1(7) - LH (7)
ICN - 1 (7) - EK (7)
JED - 1 (14) - EK (14)
KUL - 1 (7) - EK (7)
MAN - 1 (7) - EK (7)
MUC - 1 (7) - EK (7)
SFO - 1 (7) - LH (7)
YYZ - 1 (3) - EK (3)
ZRH - 1 (7) - SQ (7)


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