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Paris Air Show 2013 Airbus - EADS Orders Part 1  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 511 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 80003 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

The much awaited 2013 Paris Air Show is upon us and we have decided it would be appropriate to run two main threads on the major LOI / MOU / Order announcements.
This thread is for Airbus and EADS announcements.



Additionally, we realise that many Military Contracts may be announced. We ask that those be posted for discussion in our Military Aviation & Space Forum. 

Though we understand there will be split orders, having the official threads should make it a lot easier to track orders for each OEM and make for a good reference for the future of the site.

In relation to Regional and other orders such as ATR, Bombardier, Embraer, Sukhoi, Mitsubishi and COMAC etc or any major new developments of new frames or further news of R&D in existing projects please feel free to go ahead and post a thread as normal, or in an existing thread.



Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
276 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQatarA340 From Qatar, joined May 2006, 1820 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 79777 times:

I wonder how serious Qatar Airways's A330 order will be? They will already be recieving 5 or so more 787s this year and more 787s and A350s next year.


لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 79022 times:

Don't know. According to some media, the order was a "done deal" but maybe it was just speculation. Let's find out in the coming days  

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 1):
They will already be recieving 5 or so more 787s this year and more 787s and A350s next year.

I understood it is not enough for Mr Baker. He would love to double the delivery numbers.

[Edited 2013-06-16 04:53:21]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 73816 times:

Airbus will announce an order for at least 10 A380 aircraft:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...der-over-4-billion-from-doric.html

[Edited 2013-06-16 12:27:36]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineRJA321 From Jordan, joined Mar 2009, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 73739 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):

Airbus will announce an order for 10 A380 aircraft

I believe these will be for Royal Jordanian!   


I know they're not but one can only dream RJ will be able to handle the A380 some day; it'll be one beautiful aircraft!



Hurry up, before we all come to our senses!
User currently offlinechiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 73432 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):

Airbus will announce an order for 10 A380 aircraft:

Excellent! Thanks for the prelude.
 


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25183 posts, RR: 48
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 72940 times:

ILFC supposed to announce order for 50 additional A320NEO's

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ilfc-p...ace-5-billion-order-192409097.html

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1447 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 71912 times:

Anyone have any idea who these Doric Asset Finance Ltd A380s will go to? I am guessing not EK & SQ who finance their A380s through.


If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25183 posts, RR: 48
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 71482 times:

Doric owns almost 20 A380s. Majority leased to EK and a few to SQ.

However unlike traditional lessors that buys planes and has the commercial risk to find homes for them, Doric focuses on more simply the financial transaction and things like immediate sale and leaseback with airlines. They are more a broader asset management company as they also do other things including real estate investments and involvement in the energy sector.

Anyhow, its almost certain the deal here is for aircraft that already have a home, so the order might be for someone like EK exercising their 380 options under Doric's name.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 71093 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Anyhow, its almost certain the deal here is for aircraft that already have a home, so the order might be for someone like EK exercising their 380 options under Doric's name.

Maybe, but Tim Clark would prefer to announce the order by himself?



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 309 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 69920 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
Airbus will announce an order for at least 10 A380 aircraft:

The top of order we have been waiting from BA?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30914 posts, RR: 87
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 68944 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 10):
The top of order we have been waiting from BA?

I'm thinking a top-up from QR. They appear to plan a buying binge at PAS per media reports.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4907 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 68459 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
Airbus will announce an order for at least 10 A380 aircraft:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0....html

Could the announcement be that of a NEW A380 operator?

EK8413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 878 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 68321 times:

Here is an interview with Doric founder Mark Lapidus, dating from April 2011. In this interview, he is very bullish on the A380.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...der-mark-lapidus-talks-a380s-49016

Some interesting quotes:

"We like the A380 as an investment, but many people still do not get it and we are happy if it remains that way."

"if the fuel price keeps on rising, more fuel efficient aircraft will become significantly more valuable, and the A380 leads the way here."

"we told Airbus that we are interested in ILFC’s A380 positions and would be pleased to hear back, even if at the back of the queue in 2016 or 2017 because I am certain it is not long before new A380 orders will start piling up."

On BA's A380 order:

"Today they have about 50 747-400s. With the industry’s growth in mind, they will need at least 50 A380s, 19 is a joke, especially as the third runway at Heathrow is a known myth. And if you take into account the planned savings from the economies of scale with Iberia and the amazing growth Brazil is leading in South America, IAG should be probably looking at 70 A380s."


User currently offlineicebird757 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 662 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 68235 times:

Maybe an announcement from JetBlue about either A330's or A350's or 787's since Barger mentioned last year in China the company is looking at these a/c types for future long haul service to South America.


LGB....where you can watch the grass grow because the traffic is so slow.
User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 878 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 68158 times:

And another interview with Lapidus:

http://www.doric.com/fileadmin/Doric...apply_DNA_template_beyond_A380.pdf

Quotes:

"We believe the A380 is still undiscovered by many airlines and we see plenty of routes where the A380 will offer unbeatable economics to new operators who have not yet ordered it."

"And Lapidus is very bullish on the prospects of the A380 as an investment asset, stating that the A380 will probably have the longest life span of any other aircraft in the market today."


User currently onlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3061 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 65316 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Anyhow, its almost certain the deal here is for aircraft that already have a home, so the order might be for someone like EK exercising their 380 options under Doric's name.

The article does mention all-Y main deck, which fits EK. Although, I do find it odd that they mentioned this at all. You'd think new carriers would leave configuration info until later. While, at the same time, it seems odd to focus on that of all things, if the order was for EK.

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7477 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 65177 times:

I know this thread isn't for rumors but I had an insider say that a Japanese LCC is expected to order a number of Airbus A320s. I think it's an expansion effort by Peach.


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13023 posts, RR: 100
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 65049 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
Airbus will announce an order for at least 10 A380 aircraft:
Quoting BA0197 (Reply 10):
The top of order we have been waiting from BA?
Quoting BA0197 (Reply 10):
I'm thinking a top-up from QR. They appear to plan a buying binge at PAS per media reports.

I hope for a new operator. But that is the enthusiast in me. I claim no insight into the A380 sales at Paris this year.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineRickNRoll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 813 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 65008 times:

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 16):
The article does mention all-Y main deck, which fits EK. Although, I do find it odd that they mentioned this at all. You'd think new carriers would leave configuration info until later. While, at the same time, it seems odd to focus on that of all things, if the order was for EK.

If the configuration is one of the most important details for the finance company, that would be the reason for it being mentioned. It means they believe this will help give a better long time value to their investment.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 64940 times:

Apparently the order is from a leasing firm:-

"Airbus SAS is set to win an order for more than 10 A380 double-decker airliners valued at more than $4 billion from lessor Doric Asset Finance Ltd., people familiar with the transaction said.

Doric is scheduled to announce the deal as early as today as the 50th Paris Air Show begins, said one of the people, who asked not to be identified because the negotiations are private. The London-based company plans to outfit the superjumbo with all-economy seats on the lower deck, the person said."


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...der-over-4-billion-from-doric.html



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10008 posts, RR: 96
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 64746 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
Apparently the order is from a leasing firm:-

This was mentioned somewhat up-thread..

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
Airbus Said to Win A380 Order Over $4B From Doric Asset
Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 7):
Anyone have any idea who these Doric Asset Finance Ltd A380s will go to?
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Doric owns almost 20 A380s. Majority leased to EK and a few to SQ.
Quoting Scipio (Reply 15):
And another interview with Lapidus:

The latter two are well worth a read  

Rgds


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 64548 times:

Hi, astuteman. I was answering lightsaber above  :-

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
I hope for a new operator.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineplanesntrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5504 posts, RR: 29
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 63805 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
an order for more than 10 A380

So, like, 11?  

Sorry, but I just have never liked the "more than..." comment that journalists use.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 708 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 63501 times:

There will be Airbus announcements at

10:00
11:00
12:00

Local time

[Edited 2013-06-16 23:43:14]


A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 63819 times:

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 23):
Sorry, but I just have never liked the "more than..." comment that journalists use.

"more than" usually means firm + options.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 62974 times:

Quoting starbucks (Reply 24):

There will be Airbus announcements at

10:00
11:00
12:00

Local time

So first one in ten mins - wonder if they'll start slowly or go straight in with the big multi billion E order?


User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 708 posts, RR: 6
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 64391 times:

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 26):
So first one in ten mins - wonder if they'll start slowly or go straight in with the big multi billion E order?

Yes, live feed at: http://event.airbus.com/airshows/bourget2013/home.html

at the moment it says "Live webcast coming soon..." and "Stay with us, next announcement at 10:00am Paris local time (08:00am UTC)



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 63927 times:

It's past 10am and still no live steam available. Is there another url?


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 708 posts, RR: 6
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 63862 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 28):

It's past 10am and still no live steam available. Is there another url?

NOt that I know of....

The Next announcement at: 10:00 has disappeared as well..  



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 64066 times:

> ILFC ordering 50 more #A320neo, taking total to 150 #PAS13

http://twitter.com/Airbus/status/346540611068903424
http://twitter.com/FlightDKM/status/346540129474727936

[Edited 2013-06-17 01:12:17]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 878 posts, RR: 10
Reply 31, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 64079 times:

Airbus expects A380 order revival, as airlines seek to capture traffic growth...

>> But the spark needed to reignite sales will be "a mindset change", he [Airbus's senior vice-president marketing, Chris Emerson] says. "It's not the last half decade where airlines were fearful they wouldn't find the passengers to fill the aircraft, now it is 'if we build it, they will come' - you have to have the seats out there."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-a380-order-revival-airbus-387173/


User currently offlineLuxair From Suriname, joined Jan 2001, 851 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 63910 times:

There is a livestream right know but unfortunately without audio  


Marvin Lee Cooper
User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 63863 times:

Quoting starbucks (Reply 29):

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 28):

It's past 10am and still no live steam available. Is there another url?

NOt that I know of....

The Next announcement at: 10:00 has disappeared as well..  

Boooo obviously someone wasn't quite ready to sign! Over to Boeing now


User currently offlineMaxair From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2002, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 63812 times:

I've pictures but no sound.........

User currently offlinemacc From Austria, joined Nov 2004, 1038 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 63589 times:

is that 10.00 announcement about the ILFC order?


I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3997 posts, RR: 5
Reply 36, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 63449 times:

Where do you get the "pictures but no sound" livestream? I still have the "Live Webcast Coming Soon" at
"event.airbus.com/airshows/bourget2013/" ?


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 37, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 63488 times:

Quoting macc (Reply 35):
is that 10.00 announcement about the ILFC order?

So far, yes.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 63685 times:

Reuters reports that Airbus will announce order(s) for 20 A380.

17-Jun-2013 15:57 - LEAHY - AIRBUS EAD.PA WIRD AUF PARISER LUFTFAHRTSCHAU 20 BESTELLUNGEN FÜR A380 BEKANNTGEBEN



SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently offlineLuxair From Suriname, joined Jan 2001, 851 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 63407 times:

A lot of hot air as usual?!!!   a bit disapointing...


Marvin Lee Cooper
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 40, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 62716 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 30):
ILFC ordering 50 more #A320neo, taking total to 150 #PAS13

And here is the press release:

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...s-50-more-a320neo-family-aircraft/

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1371446758_A320neo_ILFC.jpg



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 62707 times:

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 38):
Reuters reports that Airbus will announce order(s) for 20 A380.

17-Jun-2013 15:57 - LEAHY - AIRBUS EAD.PA WIRD AUF PARISER LUFTFAHRTSCHAU 20 BESTELLUNGEN FÜR A380 BEKANNTGEBEN

Somehow, everytime an A380 order is in the air, there is always a little sprankle of hope in me that visions a big blue KLM A380..... But then the rational me kicks again.....


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 42, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 62547 times:

Quoting Luxair (Reply 39):
a bit disapointing...

There was a time that ordering 50 aircraft was impressive  



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 606 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 62010 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 42):
There was a time that ordering 50 aircraft was impressive

Yeah, that was before the crazy 200 or so mega orders of AirAsia, Lionair and the like. *sigh*



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1876 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 61828 times:

Quoting neutrino (Reply 43):

Yeah, that was before the crazy 200 or so mega orders of AirAsia, Lionair and the like.

Take it easy. Those mega-orders are still exception, not the rule.



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 45, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 61359 times:

Here we go:

> Large Doric A380 model on front desk at #PAS13 is probably a clue to what's about to transpire...
> Doric Lease Corp to order 20 #Airbus #A380 aircraft
> Doric order is for 20 A380s

http://twitter.com/Airbus/status/346553750871232512
http://twitter.com/FlightDKM/status/346553818487615488

[Edited 2013-06-17 02:05:32]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 46, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 60981 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 45):
Doric Lease Corp to order 20 #Airbus #A380 aircraft. #PAS13

Boom!

We'll have to see who the customer(s) are as they are a LeaseCo who don't tend to order speculatively.


User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12507 posts, RR: 46
Reply 47, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 61095 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

So is the live feed working for anyone?   

"To order 20 A380", so this is an LoI/MoU? And is it 20 or "up to 20"?

[Edited 2013-06-17 02:09:20]


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 708 posts, RR: 6
Reply 48, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 60738 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 47):
So is the live feed working for anyone?  

Negative..  



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently onlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1611 posts, RR: 7
Reply 49, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 60915 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 45):
Doric order is for 20 A380s

So 5 frames shy from this years target!  

Anybody any idea for which carrier these wil be be?



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 878 posts, RR: 10
Reply 50, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 60947 times:

Nice. Largest non-Emirates A380 order yet ...

User currently offlineMaxair From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2002, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 60600 times:

Again no sound!!.......................

User currently onlineGLAGAZ From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2004, 1983 posts, RR: 11
Reply 52, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 60558 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 47):
So is the live feed working for anyone?

It says its because of bad weather that they are currently unable to stream.



Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
User currently offlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 60546 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 47):
So is the live feed working for anyone?

"Bad weather conditions at the show prevent us from performing live streaming"

Funny, isn't it?


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 54, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 60615 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 47):
"To order 20 A380", so this is an LoI/MoU? And is it 20 or "up to 20"?

It's a MoU, to be firmed later this year.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12507 posts, RR: 46
Reply 55, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 60425 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Maxair (Reply 51):
Again no sound!!.......................

If you have pictures, consider yourself lucky!  



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinebobmuc From Germany, joined Nov 2011, 408 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 60540 times:

At http://event.airbus.com/airshows/bourget2013/home.html

"Bad weather conditions at the show prevent us from performning live streaming"  


User currently offlinechiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 60565 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 47):
"To order 20 A380", so this is an LoI/MoU? And is it 20 or "up to 20"?

By the sound of it .. 20 firm orders.
  

If so ... a pretty darn good start for Airbus.
20 A380's
50 NEO's


User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3997 posts, RR: 5
Reply 58, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 60291 times:

Just noted a message at airbus.com:

"Bad weather conditions at the show prevent us from performing live streaming"


???? What weather conditions can prevent live streaming? Sounds a bit like the student telling the teacher "My dog has eaten my homework"......


User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 878 posts, RR: 10
Reply 59, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 60246 times:

Here is the press release:

http://event.airbus.com/airshows/bou...ndmark-agreement-for-20-a380s.html

The aircraft will be marketed to "existing and new customers".


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 60, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 60088 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 54):
It's a MoU, to be firmed later this year.

Press release here:

http://event.airbus.com/airshows/bou...dmark-agreement-for-20-a380s.html#

http://event.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1371446759_A380-800_DORIC.jpg



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12507 posts, RR: 46
Reply 61, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 59995 times:
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Quoting chiad (Reply 57):
By the sound of it .. 20 firm orders.

Unfortunately, not firm yet.

Press release clarifies it as an MoU. Still, a somewhat unexpected customer and a sizeable commitment.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinesierra3tango From Bahrain, joined Mar 2013, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 59789 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 59):
"existing and new customers"

I assume (as its only a MoU) that we will not be told who the end users will be?


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 63, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 59817 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 61):
Unfortunately, not firm yet.

We've seen MoU's all the time, just give it a few months  



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineeclipz From France, joined Jun 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 59788 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 58):
???? What weather conditions can prevent live streaming? Sounds a bit like the student telling the teacher "My dog has eaten my homework".....

Thunderstorms in Paris area


User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12507 posts, RR: 46
Reply 65, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 59528 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 63):
We've seen MoU's all the time, just give it a few months

Oh, I have no doubt it will be firmed.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2649 posts, RR: 4
Reply 66, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 59560 times:

All that hoopla for an MoU? (MoU can be as good as orders, but can also evaporate into nothing)
I was hoping for a nice firm order from one or multiple customers. At least, that was the impression one got from the hype.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 878 posts, RR: 10
Reply 67, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 59575 times:

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 62):
I assume (as its only a MoU) that we will not be told who the end users will be?

My reading of the press release is that the end users may not be determined yet. Doric seems very confident in its ability to place these frames, though...


User currently offlineindia1 From India, joined Aug 2011, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 59682 times:
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Quoting Scipio (Reply 50):
So 5 frames shy from this years target!  

Noooo  ... only 3 - you forget the LH 2 frames that they announced sometime back but are yet to confirm


User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 878 posts, RR: 10
Reply 69, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 59311 times:

In other news, RR is working on an improved version of its engine for the A380 (the Trent-900EP2), promising a 0.5-0.8 percent fuel burn improvement by the middle of next year.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-out-legacy-trent-upgrades-386958/

Very informative article, that probably deserves its own thread.


User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 70, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 59320 times:

Quoting india1 (Reply 68):

Quoting Scipio (Reply 50):
So 5 frames shy from this years target!  

Noooo  ... only 3 - you forget the LH 2 frames that they announced sometime back but are yet to confirm

Add another 10 for QR and it'll be a good year, although there will be the IT cancellation to come at some point.


User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 878 posts, RR: 10
Reply 71, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 59057 times:

Quoting india1 (Reply 68):
Quoting Scipio (Reply 50):
So 5 frames shy from this years target!  

Noooo  ... only 3 - you forget the LH 2 frames that they announced sometime back but are yet to confirm

I didn't forget, and didn't write that. Something went wrong while you tried to quote travelavnut.


User currently offlineRickNRoll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 813 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 58858 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 69):
In other news, RR is working on an improved version of its engine for the A380 (the Trent-900EP2), promising a 0.5-0.8 percent fuel burn improvement by the middle of next year.

Rolls are still working on the A340 engine?

"The current production standard engine for the Airbus A380 is the Trent 900EP (enhanced performance), and this will be replaced by an EP2 standard from next year. Also on offer are upgrades for the Trent 700 powering A330s, the Trent 800 for the Boeing 777 and the A340-500/600's Trent 500."

Isn't that a waste of time?


User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 450 posts, RR: 11
Reply 73, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 58185 times:

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 72):
Rolls are still working on the A340 engine?

"The current production standard engine for the Airbus A380 is the Trent 900EP (enhanced performance), and this will be replaced by an EP2 standard from next year. Also on offer are upgrades for the Trent 700 powering A330s, the Trent 800 for the Boeing 777 and the A340-500/600's Trent 500."

Isn't that a waste of time?

Just because a model is out of production it doesn't mean you stop supporting and improving it.
RR (as well as Airbus) are likely to still have contracts with A345/A346 customers that mean they'll have to provide them with certain service levels regarding ongoing technology improvements and maintenance.

Also, the Trent 500 is not a million miles removed from the Trent 800 and 700, so a lot of improvements developed for those two types should be relatively easy to adapt to the Trent 500.



Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10008 posts, RR: 96
Reply 74, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 57749 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting garpd (Reply 66):
All that hoopla for an MoU? (MoU can be as good as orders, but can also evaporate into nothing)
I was hoping for a nice firm order from one or multiple customers. At least, that was the impression one got from the hype

Look on the bright side. It's about 1/10 th of the hoopla we'd be getting if there was no sign of anything on the horizon for the A380  

Rgds


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 75, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 57712 times:

Lufthansa A320neo model being put on front desk, standby  

http://twitter.com/FlightDKM/status/346569419255857152

[Edited 2013-06-17 03:11:24]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 76, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 57805 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 75):
Lufthansa A320neo model being put on front desk, standby

And done:

Lufthansa firms order for 70 A320neos and 30 regular A320s. #airbus #PAS13

http://twitter.com/FlightDKM/status/346570212340006912



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinebobmuc From Germany, joined Nov 2011, 408 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 57276 times:

Why are the 2x A380 not included from the original plan?  

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 78, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 57021 times:

Maybe later? This is just the first day  


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinecerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 56982 times:

Are we expecting anymore orders today?

User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 80, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 56867 times:

Quoting bobmuc (Reply 77):
Why are the 2x A380 not included from the original plan?  

Hmmmm, maybe they're going to order some more than 2?


User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1586 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 55545 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 50):
Nice. Largest non-Emirates A380 order yet ...

Although I wouldn't be surprised to see a great deal of those ending up at EK anyway   

Quoting Scipio (Reply 67):
My reading of the press release is that the end users may not be determined yet. Doric seems very confident in its ability to place these frames, though...

I'm sure we'll have a lot of A-net threads about which airlines will take them - at least until these are announced (which may be a little while yet) Doris indeed seems very optimistic about the A380 program, its best years still to come.  
Quoting cerecl (Reply 79):

We need something to talk about the next couple of days as well   And I think tuesday and wednesday will be the best days. Start on a monday with some excellent news but not the most spectacular: firming up already announced orders, orders by leasing companies (I may very well get flamed for not calling 20x A380 or 50x A320 most spectacular, but, it's just that I cannot really identify myself with orders from leasing companies... seeing drawings of airplanes with liveries that will never see the light of day    )



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6895 posts, RR: 63
Reply 82, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 55417 times:

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 81):
Doris indeed seems very optimistic

Who's Doris and what does she know about it?     


User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1586 posts, RR: 1
Reply 83, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 55248 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 82):
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 81):Doris indeed seems very optimistic
Who's Doris and what does she know about it?

   ooops, you caught me there!   



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 84, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 54783 times:

Quoting cerecl (Reply 79):
Are we expecting anymore orders today?

It's done for today.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4410 posts, RR: 76
Reply 85, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 54757 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting garpd (Reply 66):
All that hoopla for an MoU?
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 76):

Are we expecting anymore orders today?

     

When are you guys going to be satisfied ?
50 + 70 NEOs = 120 + 30 CEOs = 150
+ 20 MOUs for the A380
That on the first day ?



Contrail designer
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2649 posts, RR: 4
Reply 86, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 54241 times:

Quoting astuteman (Reply 74):

Look on the bright side. It's about 1/10 th of the hoopla we'd be getting if there was no sign of anything on the horizon for the A380

Rgds

Touché good man, touché!



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineLuxair From Suriname, joined Jan 2001, 851 posts, RR: 2
Reply 87, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 54158 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 42):

I know and of course it still is. My disapointment was more regarding the A380 but i hope/wish so much that many more A380 orders will come in the future.



Marvin Lee Cooper
User currently offlinechiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 53832 times:

Pihero (Reply 85):
50 + 70 NEOs = 120 + 30 CEOs = 150
+ 20 MOUs for the A380


Thanks for the wrap-up


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 89, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 53480 times:

I'll do the same in this thread. For today we have:

> Lufthansa: firm 70x A320neo + 30x A320ceo
> ILFC: firm for 50x A320neo
> Doric: MoU for 20x A380



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinechiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 52970 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 93):
> Lufthansa: firm 70x A320neo + 30x A320ceo
> ILFC: firm for 50x A320neo
> Doric: MoU for 20x A380

Thanks Karel.
User flood will be busy this week.
 


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6465 posts, RR: 9
Reply 91, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 52988 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
know this thread isn't for rumors but I had an insider say that a Japanese LCC is expected to order a number of Airbus A320s. I think it's an expansion effort by Peach.

Sure looks like a rumor to me.


User currently offlinechiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 53159 times:

Here's a nice recap of all orders.

http://www.pdxlight.com/pas13.htm


User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 93, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 52062 times:

Quoting chiad (Reply 94):
User flood will be busy this week.

not much to update so far and it's quick to do... just trying to resist the temptation of adding more crap  


User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 878 posts, RR: 10
Reply 94, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 51466 times:

Two more pieces of information:

No agreement yet on Lufthansa's order for 2 A380s:

http://news.yahoo.com/lufthansa-conf...-order-airbus-a320s-103854981.html

Deliveries for Doric to start in 2016:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/orders...g-jets-splash-paris-114014801.html

Hence, Doric is not taking the remaining 2015 delivery slots... This means that they are either not in a hurry, or those slots are the subject of negotiations with one or more other customers.

Given Doric's enthusiasm for the A380, perhaps the latter is the more plausible explanation?


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 95, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 51235 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 98):
No agreement yet on Lufthansa's order for 2 A380s:

I bet Leahy tries to sell them the 2 open delivery slots in 2015.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinecerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 50354 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 85):
When are you guys going to be satisfied ?

I am satisfied, just wanted to know when to stop refreshing screen for a while...  
Quoting Scipio (Reply 98):
No agreement yet on Lufthansa's order for 2 A380s:

Maybe they want to combine them with the 50 A350s for a better price...   


User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 97, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 50246 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 99):
Quoting Scipio (Reply 98):
No agreement yet on Lufthansa's order for 2 A380s:

I bet Leahy tries to sell them the 2 open delivery slots in 2015.

I'd bet that he's currently negotiatign on exactly that or maybe Air ZImbabwe have got there first.......


User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12507 posts, RR: 46
Reply 98, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 50256 times:
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Quoting cerecl (Reply 100):
I am satisfied, just wanted to know when to stop refreshing screen for a while...

On the whole, not much business gets done after lunch.     



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 878 posts, RR: 10
Reply 99, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 50236 times:

And more info on the Doric deal:

- deliveries will take place from 2016 to 2021
- engine choice to be made before year-end
- the all-economy main deck layout will ensure "surprisingly low transition costs" between airlines
- Leahy refuses to raise his 25-unit order target for this year, but concedes that he may "sell a few more"
- Airbus is working on finalizing a deal that would fill the last two available slots for 2015 (Lufthansa?)
- as part of the deal, Doric gets "exclusive access to Airbus sales/marketing support and data"

Not sure what the last point means in practice...

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/awx_06_17_2013_p0-588869.xml&p=1


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 50135 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 98):
Hence, Doric is not taking the remaining 2015 delivery slots... This means that they are either not in a hurry, or those slots are the subject of negotiations with one or more other customers.

Given Doric's enthusiasm for the A380, perhaps the latter is the more plausible explanation?

Doric's entire WB portfolio consists of 27 aircraft:

18 - A380's (13 Emirates & 5 Singapore)
6 - B777's ( 5 Emirates & 1 Cathy)
2 - A340's (Virgin Atlantic)
1 - A330 (Air Mauritius)

Doric is a relatively small player (for now anyway) in the aircraft leasing game. With 18 of their 27 WB's being operated by Emirates (66.6% of their WB's) and 5 more by Singapore (18.5%), that's 85.1% of Doric's WB assets.

The only conclusion I can draw about an order of this size in relation to their current size, is that is Not a speculative buy. It's more then likely that these A/C already have intended homes with Emirates and or Singapore. And not so much about wider interest in the A/C. But time will tell....

[Edited 2013-06-17 06:07:22]


harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4723 posts, RR: 39
Reply 101, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 49545 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting scbriml (Reply 61):
Press release clarifies it as an MoU. Still, a somewhat unexpected customer and a sizeable commitment.   

It sure is. And the 20 of this MoU will be firmed up pretty soon I guess.  .

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 63):
We've seen MoU's all the time, just give it a few months  

  

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 76):
And done:

Lufthansa firms order for 70 A320neos and 30 regular A320s. #airbus #PAS13

Great news.  .

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 80):
Quoting bobmuc (Reply 77):
Why are the 2x A380 not included from the original plan?  

Hmmmm, maybe they're going to order some more than 2?

That would even be better, but that is all speculation yet.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 85):
When are you guys going to be satisfied ?
50 + 70 NEOs = 120 + 30 CEOs = 150
+ 20 MOUs for the A380
That on the first day ?

Which is a very, very good start.  .

Quoting scbriml (Reply 102):
On the whole, not much business gets done after lunch.

Good business is celebrated during lunch.  . Especially in Paris.


User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 878 posts, RR: 10
Reply 102, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 49595 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 104):
The only conclusion I can draw about an order of this size in relation to their current size, is that is Not a speculative buy. It more then likely that these A/C already have intended homes with Emirates and or Singapore. And not so much about wider interest in the A/C. But time will tell....

That is not the way it seems, from Lapidus's and Leahy's statements:

>> "We see how airlines that do not yet have the A380 are interested in it and approach us and ask questions, which shows us that there is pent-up demand for this aircraft," Mark Lapidus, chief executive of Doric Lease Corp, said.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/orders...g-jets-splash-paris-114014801.html

>> Leahy noted that leasing A380s through Doric will “take a lot of the risk out of the decision to order the A380. We see this is as a breakthrough in marketing the aircraft.”

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/awx_06_17_2013_p0-588869.xml&p=1

These statements suggest that (part of) the logic of the deal is to make the A380 available to new operators.

And why would Doric need access to Airbus sales/marketing support and data if Doric's A380's already have intended homes?


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 103, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 48601 times:

Emirates would never announce an order for new A380s in this way. Tim Clark must be present and the whole deal should be around Emirates. Reading through the aviationweek article, I get the impression these A380s will be used for an other purpose.

Besides, Emirates already hinted at an order for 30 A380s later this year (Dubai airshow?). 2013 could be an excellent sales year for the A380.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 103):
- Airbus is working on finalizing a deal that would fill the last two available slots for 2015 (Lufthansa?)

I too was thinking about Lufthansa.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 48340 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 106):
These statements suggest that (part of) the logic of the deal is to make the A380 available to new operators.

And why would Doric need access to Airbus sales/marketing support and data if Doric's A380's already have intended homes?

There very well could be a new operator or two. But I see the majority being placed with EK and SQ.

Doric is a company with $7 billion in assets, and $5.9 billion of that is transportation (A/C and a cargo ship). At list prices (20x A380) this would be a $8 billion dollar investment. That is approx. 138% higher then there current A/C assets value.

Do you not see some serious risk, if those A/C don't already have intended homes?



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 105, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 48258 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 108):
if those A/C don't already have intended homes?

Sure, but that doesn't mean it has to be EK.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 106, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 47820 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 109):
Quoting mffoda (Reply 108):
if those A/C don't already have intended homes?

Sure, but that doesn't mean it has to be EK.

Agreed and I didn't say it "had" to be. I implied that it is more "likely" to be, since 66.6% of Doric's WB assets are their already...



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 107, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 47733 times:

All right. Time will tell  


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3747 posts, RR: 11
Reply 108, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 47219 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 106):
We see this is as a breakthrough in marketing the aircraft.

It's certainly a good way to leverage risk, which might win over a few hesitant operators.

That said, I have a feeling at least some of these frames will go to EK, as speculated above...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineZEDZAG From Croatia, joined May 2012, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 46939 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 103):
And more info on the Doric deal:

- deliveries will take place from 2016 to 2021
- engine choice to be made before year-end

If the engine choice is not known by now, it doesent have to be EK, it would be EA engines if it were.

Or is this a gameplay to mask the real customer?


User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 878 posts, RR: 10
Reply 110, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 45564 times:

Another article on the Doric deal, from Airbus:

http://event.airbus.com/airshows/bou...th-its-agreement-for-20-a380s.html

Informative quotes:

> Lapidus said that based on airline contacts already made by Doric, he believes there is a “pent up demand just under the surface” for A380s from multiple airlines that do not operate the aircraft or have not yet ordered them. “With the leasing solution we are bringing to the table, we believe that many of those airlines will ‘cross the line,’”

> he [Lapidus] expects all 20 jetliners to be placed through lease transactions with probably two or three airlines. “This is why I think we may not have enough with our current agreement,” he added.

More evidence that the frames are intended in full or in part for new operators...

Quoting mffoda (Reply 104):
But I see the majority being placed with EK and SQ.

There does not seem to be much evidence to support that view.

As pointed out by KarelXWB, it would be a very atypical approach for EK. And for SQ as well, I would add.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 104):
Do you not see some serious risk, if those A/C don't already have intended homes?

I'm sure that Doric has some good ideas about where it can place these frames, but nothing that they have said indicates that leasing deals are already in place.

The deal's very rationale seems to be that Doric takes on some risk, so that airlines can take A380s at less risk...
Doric must consider that the risk it takes on is manageable, and that they will be adequately compensated for it.


User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 111, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 45314 times:

I'm wondering if this A380 order is a way of allowing airlines such as CX and TK who have been sitting on the fence regarding the big bird to try it out without making the huge financial commitment that a purchase would be.

Others that spring to mind would be LATAM and maybe Delta.


User currently offlinesturmovik From India, joined May 2007, 509 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 44580 times:

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 81):
Start on a monday with some excellent news but not the most spectacular

Sure, get all the orders out of the way for a spectacular flyby with the A350!   

Quoting mffoda (Reply 100):
6 - B777's ( 5 Emirates & 1 Cathy)


Who's Cathy and what does she need a 777 for?     



'What's it doing now?'
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 44380 times:

Quoting sturmovik (Reply 112):
Who's Cathy and what does she need a 777 for?     

She's a really Big girl!!  



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1813 posts, RR: 2
Reply 114, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 44155 times:

I'm curious. Does any money ever exchange hands before the airplane is delivered? And if so, if the program never comes to light (say in this case the A358 never gets built) does a customer get their money back?

User currently onlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1611 posts, RR: 7
Reply 115, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 44168 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 110):
The deal's very rationale seems to be that Doric takes on some risk, so that airlines can take A380s at less risk...
Doric must consider that the risk it takes on is manageable, and that they will be adequately compensated for it.

I think you might be right, I could also imagine that Doric will share some risk with Airbus themselves, maybe an insurance package of some kind in case not all frames can be placed with customers.



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlinesturmovik From India, joined May 2007, 509 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 43986 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 114):
Does any money ever exchange hands before the airplane is delivered?

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the payments are phased. An order usually has a deposit that goes along with it. If the A358 is cancelled or put into an indefinite holding pattern (like the A380F), you can bet that JL will try every trick up his sleeve to get those customers to move to the A359 so Airbus won't have to return the deposits. You could read up on the Airbus vs South African Air Force saga over the A400M cancellation, I remember those news articles had some interesting information on what happened to the advances paid.
If, on the other hand, the airline is unable to take up delivery after ordering the aircraft, the deposits could be forfeit.

[Edited 2013-06-17 09:48:21]


'What's it doing now?'
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 117, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 44211 times:

Quoting cerecl (Reply 96):
Maybe they want to combine them with the 50 A350s for a better price...   

Or the other way around LH ordered 50 787s and 2 A380s from Airbus   Does not sound too bad then  



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 118, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 43363 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 114):
I'm curious. Does any money ever exchange hands before the airplane is delivered? And if so, if the program never comes to light (say in this case the A358 never gets built) does a customer get their money back?

Customers start paying once they signed a firm order. They also pay a bit when the frame enters production and final assembly etc.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 110):
And for SQ as well, I would add.

Correct, they placed an order last year and would not do it this way.

[Edited 2013-06-17 10:11:05]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineA380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1110 posts, RR: 1
Reply 119, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 43215 times:

Is Doric a front for Airbus for some kind of "satisfied or your money back" offer?

What I mean is that maybe Airbus is taking on some of Doric's risk as they (Airbus) always have some role in financing with smaller entities. Escpecially with illiquid assets like the A380. No?


User currently offlineExtra300 From Sweden, joined Sep 2011, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 42501 times:

After today's orders, Airbus backlog exceeds 5000 units! Crazy

User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 42197 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 110):
Quoting mffoda (Reply 104):
But I see the majority being placed with EK and SQ.

There does not seem to be much evidence to support that view.

As pointed out by KarelXWB, it would be a very atypical approach for EK. And for SQ as well, I would add.

85.1% of Doric's WB portfolio is with EK/SQ. I would say that makes them Doric's best customers??

You yourself posted up thread the folloing:

"- Leahy refuses to raise his 25-unit order target for this year, but concedes that he may "sell a few more"

And

> Lapidus said that based on airline contacts already made by Doric, he believes there is a “pent up demand just under the surface” for A380s from multiple airlines that do not operate the aircraft or have not yet ordered them. “With the leasing solution we are bringing to the table, we believe that many of those airlines will ‘cross the line,’”

It appears on the surface that the two comments are contradictory... "pent up demand just under the surface" and "Leahy refuses to raise his 25-unit order target for this year". Which is it? "pent up demand" or "refuses to raise" order target?

Maybe it's something completely different... Based on the size of Doric itself and the size of this order (Be like ILFC ordering 207 WB's in one order).   

http://www.ilfc.com/ILFC_factsheet.pdf

As you and others have suggested above, this is some New creative way to finance A380's. Or as others are suggesting:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 115):
I think you might be right, I could also imagine that Doric will share some risk with Airbus themselves, maybe an insurance package of some kind in case not all frames can be placed with customers.

Which sounds allot like the A345/6 value guaranties that Airbus provided to customers? And:

Quoting A380900 (Reply 119):
Is Doric a front for Airbus for some kind of "satisfied or your money back" offer?

What I mean is that maybe Airbus is taking on some of Doric's risk as they (Airbus) always have some role in financing with smaller entities. Escpecially with illiquid assets like the A380. No?

And JL gets to save face on his order forcast!  Wow!



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3198 posts, RR: 9
Reply 122, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 41258 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 121):
It appears on the surface that the two comments are contradictory... "pent up demand just under the surface" and "Leahy refuses to raise his 25-unit order target for this year". Which is it? "pent up demand" or "refuses to raise" order target?

The John Leahy of today is quite a different PR man than the JL of yore. Once he was bombastic and full of overstatement on demand and, significantly a few times, ended up with egg on his face. Today's JL also appears bombastic and over-confident when it comes to Airbus product but he tends to under-promise and over-deliver when it comes to orders.

So, while these two comments may appear contradictory, they may be consistent in their sub-text (based on previous outcomes).

Expect more than 25-orders this year for the A380 - appears to me to be the message.



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30914 posts, RR: 87
Reply 123, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 41244 times:
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Quoting A380900 (Reply 119):
Is Doric a front for Airbus for some kind of "satisfied or your money back" offer?

What I mean is that maybe Airbus is taking on some of Doric's risk as they (Airbus) always have some role in financing with smaller entities. Escpecially with illiquid assets like the A380. No?

Very likely "no".

How Doric operates is that they buy a plane from a customer and then lease it back to them for a period of between 10 and 12 years. They then take that asset, create a subsidiary with the name of the MSN number, and sell "shares" of it to investors.

For example, they created a subsidiary company called "MSN 077 Limited" and that subsidiary purchased MSN 077 from Emirates prior to delivery for $234 million. MSN 077 then leased that plane to Emirates for a period of 12 years at a rate that would repay the original investment within 10 years (so the final two years of lease payments are profit). MSN 077 took delivery of MSN 077 at XFW and flew it to Dubai, at which point it was handed over to EK as A6-EDP.



So this sounds like Doric believes they could lease up to 20 A380s over the next few years to new and existing customers and signed an MoU with Airbus to secure delivery positions so they could have something concrete to offer. If they can lease a frame, that specific MoU will be firmed, a new subsidiary created to purchase it, and then that asset offered for sale to investors.

So I'd consider these MoUs somewhat speculative in that I do not believe Doric will firm them if they do not have a customer. However, I also believe that Doric and whomever they are talking to are far enough advanced into talks that Doric feels confident in moving forward with spending whatever deposits Airbus requires in an MoU to secure slots.


References:

User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 124, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 40298 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 123):

If they can lease a frame, that specific MoU will be firmed, a new subsidiary created to purchase it, and then that asset offered for sale to investors.

So I'd consider these MoUs somewhat speculative in that I do not believe Doric will firm them if they do not have a customer. However, I also believe that Doric and whomever they are talking to are far enough advanced into talks that Doric feels confident in moving forward with spending whatever deposits Airbus requires in an MoU to secure slots.

Thank you, on my way back home I was thinking how to phrase my assessment of this MoU but this summarizes it perfectly.

For me this is defenitely not a "classic" MoU, which will eventually lead to a firm order. "If they can lease it" says it all. For me, Airbus didn't win anything today. Before it was lack of orders, now it's lack of orders + lack of leasing contracts for the A 380. So what is the benefit of this excersize? Please correct me and tell me that I am just too pessimistic and cynical.


User currently offlinedhr From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2007, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 40288 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 115):
Quoting Scipio (Reply 110):
The deal's very rationale seems to be that Doric takes on some risk, so that airlines can take A380s at less risk...
Doric must consider that the risk it takes on is manageable, and that they will be adequately compensated for it.

I think you might be right, I could also imagine that Doric will share some risk with Airbus themselves, maybe an insurance package of some kind in case not all frames can be placed with customers.

I tend to agree with this conclusion, it's got to be operators who most likely can't afford to go out and order them directly and very little (apart from ILFC) leasing companies have ordered this aircraft so nothing available on the leasing market. More so, I'd say Airbus and DORIC have come together to come up with a sweet deal to put the aircraft in more airline fleets (new operators).


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13023 posts, RR: 100
Reply 126, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 40262 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 123):
So I'd consider these MoUs somewhat speculative in that I do not believe Doric will firm them if they do not have a customer. However, I also believe that Doric and whomever they are talking to are far enough advanced into talks that Doric feels confident in moving forward with spending whatever deposits Airbus requires in an MoU to secure slots.

First, thank you for the explanation. Not as strong an order as I would have liked, but it is an order.   

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 127, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 40103 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 126):

Order? It's just a MoU.


User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 879 posts, RR: 12
Reply 128, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 40000 times:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 124):
So what is the benefit of this excersize? Please correct me and tell me that I am just too pessimistic and cynical.

It is a way to tell airlines that someone out there is willing to finance A380's and not a whole lot more than that. Doric is the partner at risk in this case rather than the airline so that might get some people on board who were not before. Who knows.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30914 posts, RR: 87
Reply 129, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 40006 times:
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Quoting N14AZ (Reply 124):
So what is the benefit of this excersize?

The benefit is that Airbus doesn't need to use their own money to sell / lease A380s.

Because Doric is able to find people and institutions willing to invest in their A380 assets, that makes it easier for them to secure the financing they need to acquire them ($151 million of the purchase price of MSN 077 was financed via loans from two commercial banks).

Doric's financial stability also has a benefit to those companies leasing A380s from Doric and makes it easier for Doric to place those planes with potential customers.




Quoting lightsaber (Reply 126):
First, thank you for the explanation. Not as strong an order as I would have liked, but it is an order.   

Again, I believe Doric is confident they will be able to place those A380s with customers and they are confident the investment community will continue to fund those purchases when it comes time for Doric to pay for them. We may not see all 20 firmed, but I expect they'll firm the majority of them.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25169 posts, RR: 85
Reply 130, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 39786 times:
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Quoting N14AZ (Reply 127):
Order? It's just a MoU.

Would you rather it had not happened?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 131, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 39567 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 130):

No, I wouldn't say that. I was just wonderring why Lightsaber speaks of "order" when it's just a MoU.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 132, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 39347 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 129):
The benefit is that Airbus doesn't need to use their own money to sell / lease A380s.

And Doric will also do the marketing instead, that's why they will get access to "exclusive sales/marketing support and data".



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20559 posts, RR: 62
Reply 133, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 39001 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 126):
Not as strong an order as I would have liked, but it is an order.

Let's play devil's advocate for a moment (that's always fun). Say you wanted to hire yourself out as a consultant, but even though you had all of the data for who might want to contract for your services, you couldn't risk cutting back on your current contract to market yourself to others, nor could afford the risk to buy specialty equipment to appeal to an even wider audience.

I come along and say that I'd be willing to stake you, spend my time finding you a new contract, if you'd commit to what terms you'd allow me to resell your time for, and if I could have your marketing data, and if you blocked out an exclusive period of your future time for me to market. We sign a contract detailing those details.

Would you consider that as your time booked on a definite basis?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25169 posts, RR: 85
Reply 134, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 38447 times:
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Quoting N14AZ (Reply 131):
No, I wouldn't say that. I was just wonderring why Lightsaber speaks of "order" when it's just a MoU.

I can't speak for Lightsaber, but I suppose I think of MOUs as orders - tentative orders, sure, pencilled in, not confirmed - but the first step in a journey.

As such, this seems to me to be completely positive news, but perhaps my expectations are lower than many on a.net.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 878 posts, RR: 10
Reply 135, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 37957 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 115):
that Doric will share some risk with Airbus themselves
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 115):
I could also imagine that Doric will share some risk with Airbus themselves
Quoting A380900 (Reply 119):
Is Doric a front for Airbus for some kind of "satisfied or your money back" offer?

What I mean is that maybe Airbus is taking on some of Doric's risk as they (Airbus) always have some role in financing with smaller entities. Escpecially with illiquid assets like the A380. No?

That could well be the case. To some extent, Doric and Airbus may be intent on marketing these 20 airframes together (hence the sharing of marketing resources that seems to be part of the deal). Leahy obviously is of the view that the ability to offer lease financing improves the marketability of the A380.

However, I do not think that this is some sort of "front" or "fake" deal. From the interview I linked to in post #13 above, it is clear that this deal has been a long time in the making. Doric was already considering something along these lines more than 2 years ago...

I re-post the link for everyone's convenience:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...der-mark-lapidus-talks-a380s-49016

Quoting mffoda (Reply 121):
It appears on the surface that the two comments are contradictory... "pent up demand just under the surface" and "Leahy refuses to raise his 25-unit order target for this year". Which is it? "pent up demand" or "refuses to raise" order target?

Salesmen typically get paid (bonuses) for meeting and exceeding their sales target. A rational salesman (which I tend to suspect Leahy might potentially be) will seek to agree on a sales target that is on the low side of what he thinks is achievable, and then over-deliver.

Leahy failed to meet his A380 sales target last year, by a big margin, so he may be extra cautious this year.

In addition, "pent up demand" and caution on this year's sales are not necessarily contradictory. A380 sales are "lumpy". While the demand may be there on the basis of fundamental factors (I am in the camp of those who believe this is the case), the timing of when this demand translates into orders is hard to predict. You may have just a handful of orders in one year, or a few years in a row, and then suddenly have scores of orders in a single year...

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 122):
Today's JL also appears bombastic and over-confident when it comes to Airbus product but he tends to under-promise and over-deliver when it comes to orders.

  

Quoting Stitch (Reply 123):
How Doric operates is that they buy a plane from a customer and then lease it back to them for a period of between 10 and 12 years. They then take that asset, create a subsidiary with the name of the MSN number, and sell "shares" of it to investors.

Thanks Stitch. Very useful information.

In essence, Doric will need to sell every one of these 20 frames twice. Once to the lessee, and once to the investors. That they seem confident of their ability to do so, is very positive.

Also, it is striking that Doric does not seem to be concerned in the least about their ability to place A380s at the end of the initial lease term. Unlike many here on a.net ...

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 124):
For me this is defenitely not a "classic" MoU, which will eventually lead to a firm order. "If they can lease it" says it all.

> The Doric agreement announced today is a Memorandum of Understanding for the 20 A380s, which is to be followed by a final purchase agreement in the next several months, he [Lapidus] added.

http://event.airbus.com/airshows/bou...th-its-agreement-for-20-a380s.html

Seems to leave little doubt as to whether this MoU will be turned into a firm order...

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 124):
Please correct me and tell me that I am just too pessimistic and cynical.

Glad to comply: you are too pessimistic and cynical.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 127):
Order? It's just a MoU.

You are too pessimistic and cynical.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 129):
Again, I believe Doric is confident they will be able to place those A380s with customers and they are confident the investment community will continue to fund those purchases when it comes time for Doric to pay for them. We may not see all 20 firmed, but I expect they'll firm the majority of them.


Expect all 20 to be firmed, and more to follow.

I find it bizarre that people seem to feel a compelling need to question every aspect of this deal.

Doric says the deal is to place A380s with new operators. Posters here say the frames will end up with EK and SQ.

Doric says the deal will be finalized within several months. Posters here say it is "just an MoU" that may not result in a real order.

Some skepticism is healthy, but, come on guys? This is a well-established firm, which has financed 18 A380s before, and is well connected with airlines, the financial world, and Airbus. This is not a fake deal.

It may be a deal that shatters some of your assumptions, though...

[Edited 2013-06-17 15:21:44]

[Edited 2013-06-17 16:01:23]

User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5641 posts, RR: 6
Reply 136, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 37801 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 129):
Because Doric is able to find people and institutions willing to invest in their A380 assets, that makes it easier for them to secure the financing they need to acquire them.

Can I just add that this method of financing is not unique to Doric. This is exactly the same method used to "purchase" the B767-336s QF had on lease from BA when the lease was up, BA didn't really want them back & QF could afford to let them go.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2744 posts, RR: 58
Reply 137, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 37682 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 123):
How Doric operates is that they buy a plane from a customer and then lease it back to them for a period of between 10 and 12 years. They then take that asset, create a subsidiary with the name of the MSN number, and sell "shares" of it to investors.For example, they created a subsidiary company called "MSN 077 Limited" and that subsidiary purchased MSN 077 from Emirates prior to delivery for $234 million. MSN 077 then leased that plane to Emirates for a period of 12 years at a rate that would repay the original investment within 10 years (so the final two years of lease payments are profit). MSN 077 took delivery of MSN 077 at XFW and flew it to Dubai, at which point it was handed over to EK as A6-EDP.

As usual, an excellent explanation, Stitch. Thanks for that!

Quoting Scipio (Reply 135):
I find it bizarre that people seem to feel a compelling need to question every aspect of this deal.

*shrug* I think the skepticism is understandable, even if it does turn out to be misplaced. This is rather a departure from the 'normal' leasing order, with some unusual terms. Plus, you have an entity that, while solidly rooted in the financial community, has never placed a direct order with an OEM before - and now you have them placing an order for 20 A380's, at a time that frame isn't exactly flying off the shelves, so to speak. Finally, you have the history of the one 'traditional' leasing giant who did order the A380 - ILFC. Placing an order for 10 in 2001, ILFC spent a decade marketing those frames, with no success. Ultimately, they cancelled the order and turned their deposits into NEO's, instead.

It is human nature to question anything 'out of the ordinary.' So again, the skepticism is understandable.

Finally, I would add that I am actually rather surprised these type of deals haven't happened before, but for newer (launch) models. It seems a decent way for any OEM to help get their product on the market. . .

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13023 posts, RR: 100
Reply 138, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 37503 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 134):
I can't speak for Lightsaber, but I suppose I think of MOUs as orders - tentative orders, sure, pencilled in, not confirmed - but the first step in a journey.

As such, this seems to me to be completely positive news, but perhaps my expectations are lower than many on a.net.

And that is what it comes down to, perspective on the value of the orders. I hope I am being a pessimist.   

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 133):
Would you consider that as your time booked on a definite basis?

   You run a risk analysis on the chance each order is filled. I spent a year doing that sort of risk analysis for aircraft performance (not sales). Some fraction will not come through by the odds. So Airbus would need to consider backup plans.


But some will go through.

I have hopes for many more A380 orders in 2013... the "logjam" is clearing (in production), and I believe the hypothesis that A380 delivery timeframes were constraining sales.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10008 posts, RR: 96
Reply 139, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 37514 times:
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Quoting mffoda (Reply 121):
Which sounds allot like the A345/6 value guaranties that Airbus provided to customers? And:

I'd be astonished if Airbus haven't learned that lesson

Quoting Scipio (Reply 135):
I find it bizarre that people seem to feel a compelling need to question every aspect of this deal

It's the A380. That's what you get on here

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 137):
you have an entity that, while solidly rooted in the financial community, has never placed a direct order with an OEM before - and now you have them placing an order for 20 A380's, at a time that frame isn't exactly flying off the shelves, so to speak

That they have the confidence to do so (and state that they see the need for more) will get buried on here, without a doubt.

Rgds


User currently onlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 140, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 37402 times:

Is anyone able to do a count of commitments and MOU's announced at the last Paris show against those actually firmed up since? It would make an interesting comparison.

[Edited 2013-06-17 16:01:56]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25169 posts, RR: 85
Reply 141, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 37363 times:
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Quoting lightsaber (Reply 138):
And that is what it comes down to, perspective on the value of the orders. I hope I am being a pessimist.

The caveat to that is that I think the expectations of some are unrealistically high.

Any "order" - including MOU's - even just an aircraft or two, is a pleasure to me, for either manufacturer, just as one air show isn't a matter of life and death for either manufacturer.

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 122):
The John Leahy of today is quite a different PR man than the JL of yore. Once he was bombastic and full of overstatement on demand and, significantly a few times, ended up with egg on his face.

It's a point of view. I have always - always - found JL to be one of the more intelligent people in the business, with an acute grasp of the market, and not just for his employer.

Watching interviews with him has always been an informative pleasure to me and if he stirred the pot occasionally, it amused me to see the often quite over the top reactions to those stirrings.

I don't think he has changed - although the market may have - but maybe, again, it is a matter of perspective. If it can't be fun occasionally, why do it?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30914 posts, RR: 87
Reply 142, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 37214 times:
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Quoting Scipio (Reply 135):
Also, it is striking that Doric does not seem to be concerned in the least about their ability to place A380s at the end of the initial lease term.

Doric sets a lease rate that ensures that at the end of the term the airplane is unencumbered by any debt. So they own the plane free and clear when it comes back.


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 143, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 37043 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 135):
Thanks Stitch. Very useful information.

Yes, interesting to learn about the method used to manage and finance each asset.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 135):
In essence, Doric will need to sell every one of these 20 frames twice. Once to the lessee, and once to the investors. That they seem confident of their ability to do so, is very positive.

Not sure what's unusual about needing to sell an investment proposal to investors. Good luck to them in securing customers and funds for each aircraft.


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 144, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 37034 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 135):
I find it bizarre that people seem to feel a compelling need to question every aspect of this deal.

Doric says the deal is to place A380s with new operators. Posters here say the frames will end up with EK and SQ.

Doric says the deal will be finalized within several months. Posters here say it is "just an MoU" that may not result in a real order.

Some skepticism is healthy, but, come on guys? This is a well-established firm, that has financed 18 A380s before, and is well connected with airlines, the financial world, and Airbus. This is not a fake deal.

It may be a deal that shatters some of your assumptions, though...

Listen Scipio,

This is not in anyway meant to be personal or disparaging of your opinions or contributions to the forum. But, just because I or any other a-net member find something interesting or different or odd? Doesn't mean it's "Bizarre".

"Some posters"   We all know, that it was I that made the EK/SQ reference. It is Ok to point that out in the disscussion, I am not hiding from it. I did some quick research into Doric to learn more about them. And I find certain things about this order a bit strange or different if you like.

Like, as stitch pointed out up thread that they use a sale/lease back business model. By the way, this also included their 777's not just A380's. However, this is the first time they are directly ordering the A/C from the OEM. In the past, the Airline ordered the A/C and they financed them (that by itself is "different").

I also find the size of the order interesting in comparison to their entire aircraft portfolio value. I also made a comparison comment above relating to IFLC and posted a link. (see below)

http://www.ilfc.com/ILFC_factsheet.pdf

I don't know if you had a look at it? But, an Order of this magnitude would be like ILFC ordering $47.3 Billion dollars worth of aircraft in one go!! I find that really "Bizarre!"

As far as Doric being a "well-established firm"? They were formed in 2005 and I know that is not a show stopper. But, I don't know if that makes them well established either.

So, I'm sorry if I sound skeptical... But, their are some anomalies here.   

[Edited 2013-06-17 16:40:11]


harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 878 posts, RR: 10
Reply 145, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 36738 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 144):
By the way, this also included their 777's not just A380's.

Exactly. They could have opted to finance a fleet of B777s. Yet, they opted to finance a fleet of A380s...

Quoting art (Reply 143):
Not sure what's unusual about needing to sell an investment proposal to investors.

Nothing. Except, for this forum, when the investment proposal concerns A380s.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 144):
As far as Doric being a "well-established firm"? They were formed in 2005 and I know that is not a show stopper. But, I don't know if that makes them well established either.

For me, a firm that has managed to arrange financing for 18 A380s, plus a bunch of other assets, is well-established.


User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4146 posts, RR: 90
Reply 146, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 36511 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

So which are the correct totals for the first day of the show? From Airbus;

- Doric Lease Corp’s Memorandum of Understanding to acquire 20 A380s
- Lufthansa firmed up its order for 70Neo (35 A320neo and 35 A321neo)along with 30 A320ceo's.
- ILFC’s firm order for 50 more A320neo

Any other announcements from today?



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 147, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 36465 times:

So no A350 orders at all on the first day. Is Airbus planning a big A350 day with order announcements and fly-by on Wednesday?


SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2235 posts, RR: 12
Reply 148, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 35931 times:

I would love to know who the investors are that buy the shares in the aircraft that Doric has in its portfolio. That I have a feeling would explain a lot of why this seems so different.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30914 posts, RR: 87
Reply 149, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 35808 times:
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Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 148):
I would love to know who the investors are that buy the shares in the aircraft that Doric has in its portfolio. That I have a feeling would explain a lot of why this seems so different.

Reading the "Doric Nimrod Air Two Limited Statement re Asset Managers Report" for 02 April 2013, the shares are denominated in pence and the shares are listed on the Specialist Fund Market of the London Stock Exchange and the Channel Islands Stock Exchange.

It sounds that these shares cannot be sold in the United States, Canada, Australia, Japan and any other country where such a solicitation is considered unlawful.

Still, they seem to be able to sell over 100 million of them (each share is worth 200p) so either the UK really loves the A380 or there are plenty of countries where the sale of these shares are not unlawful.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25169 posts, RR: 85
Reply 150, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 35808 times:
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Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 148):
I would love to know who the investors are that buy the shares in the aircraft that Doric has in its portfolio. That I have a feeling would explain a lot of why this seems so different.

Anyone who has money to invest and wants an attractive - and guaranteed - return. It happens already - groups of wealthy investors put money into a management company that buys something - an aircraft, say - and manages it on their behalf, the aircraft being leased out.

But it is not just aircraft. Business managers will do similar deals for property or any capital intense investment on behalf of their clients, or groups of clients, sometimes "at risk" money. A group of German investors bankroll some Hollywood movies and when you hear that "an actor owns a restaurant" that actor may be one of a group of owners.

Famously, it was said Arnold Schwarzenegger owned a 747 which was leased to Singapore Airlines:

http://www.arnoldwatch.org/articles/articles_000836.php3

State Controller Steve Westly and a taxpayers' rights group are calling on Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to disclose financial and tax records about his 747 investment deal with Singapore Airlines, saying Californians need to know if he is putting his interests before theirs.

Although it is probably more likely that he was part of a group that owned the aircraft.

I assume Doric has done deals with other investors for the aircraft already under lease.

mariner

[Edited 2013-06-17 20:08:03]


aeternum nauta
User currently onlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined exactly 3 years ago today! , 1189 posts, RR: 1
Reply 151, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 35760 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 123):
How Doric operates is that they buy a plane from a customer and then lease it back to them for a period of between 10 and 12 years.
Quoting Scipio (Reply 135):
Posters here say the frames will end up with EK and SQ.

Why would Singapore or Emirates take one of these Doric aircraft? If they ordered the aircraft themselves they would be entitled to a larger discount from Airbus. After purchase the airlines can always do a similar sale/leaseback deal with a company like Doric, but would pocket more money thanks to the larger discount from Airbus.

Quoting mariner (Reply 141):
It's a point of view. I have always - always - found JL to be one of the more intelligent people in the business, with an acute grasp of the market, and not just for his employer.

Watching interviews with him has always been an informative pleasure to me and if he stirred the pot occasionally, it amused me to see the often quite over the top reactions to those stirrings.

  



Air New Zealand; first to commercially fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineFAEDC3 From Ecuador, joined Jun 2007, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 152, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 35633 times:

Don't forget that the Doric order is to be furnished and completed by 2021, that is 8 years from now. Doubling your assets in 8 years of operation is not crazy for a financial institution. Especially considering that they had already placed 18 frames in the 5 year frame the A380 has been delivered to airlines.
Doric has already found financing for 18 frames already as explained by Stich, I wouldn't doubt they have the muscle to find resources for 20 more.


User currently offlineInsideMan From Vatican City, joined Aug 2011, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 153, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 35540 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 151):
Why would Singapore or Emirates take one of these Doric aircraft? If they ordered the aircraft themselves they would be entitled to a larger discount from Airbus. After purchase the airlines can always do a similar sale/leaseback deal with a company like Doric, but would pocket more money thanks to the larger discount from Airbus.

While this may be different for the A380, traditionally leasing companies get the most favorable pricing, not airlines.
Besides, Doric said they would place these birds with new operators.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3747 posts, RR: 11
Reply 154, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 35502 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 146):
Lufthansa firmed up its order for 70Neo (35 A320neo and 35 A321neo)along with 30 A320ceo's.

I find it amazing that airlines are still ordering CEOs at this stage. I haven't looked much into it, but I expected CEO slots to not really be available anymore before the switch to NEO. OR are they both going to be produced alongside for a little while?



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25169 posts, RR: 85
Reply 155, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 35500 times:
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Quoting zkojq (Reply 151):
Why would Singapore or Emirates take one of these Doric aircraft? If they ordered the aircraft themselves they would be entitled to a larger discount from Airbus.

Nothing is for free - money costs money.

If an airline buys an aircraft, the mortgage costs money. It is a big bunch of money to borrow and a lot of debt to have on the books.

If an airline leases the aircraft, the lessor has to make a buck for providing the aircraft, so the lease reflects those costs.

Airbus Finance provided the funding for the first A380 for Singapore Airlines (which the airline was leasing) and sold the lease on to Doric for $198 million - presumably close to the price Singapore had originally negotiated.

Airbus Sells SIA A380s For $198.6 Million (by EI321 Jan 10 2008 in Civil Aviation)

The airline never had to go near the capital cost of the aircraft and essentially what Doric has done is the same deal (x 20) but cutting out the middleman - Airbus Finance.

mariner

[Edited 2013-06-17 21:19:13]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3443 posts, RR: 10
Reply 156, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 35236 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 135):
Also, it is striking that Doric does not seem to be concerned in the least about their ability to place A380s at the end of the initial lease term.

I would not say that they are not concerned about resale; they just price in that risk premium into the cost of capital calculation when determining how much to lease the aircraft for. They do a ton of research, make an educated guess on the value, price it in and try to lease it for a higher rate and then sell the rights to that lease stream to investors and pocket the difference. Once data comes back as to how much they resell these frames, they update their calculation and do it again.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 151):
If they ordered the aircraft themselves they would be entitled to a larger discount from Airbus.

Not sure about that. IMO you are undoubtedly right regarding Emirates. But SQ does not buy in larger increments than what this order and Doric's potential future orders represent. But probably more importantly, these 20 orders come when A is really motivated to sell some frames and probably agreed to a larger discount than they would have a couple years back. In addition, this discount comes with its own marketing team and a direct line to an investment pool, both of which helps with future sales and adds to financial market legitimacy which lowers risks, reduces costs, and could sell more frames. Airbus would have to pay (bigger discount) for these benefits versus an airline of non-EK's purchasing power.

This is logical to me but it is my speculation and not based on first hand knowledge of this type of transaction.

tortugamon


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 157, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 35197 times:

Quoting FAEDC3 (Reply 152):
Don't forget that the Doric order is to be furnished and completed by 2021, that is 8 years from now. Doubling your assets in 8 years of operation is not crazy for a financial institution. Especially considering that they had already placed 18 frames in the 5 year frame the A380 has been delivered to airlines.
Doric has already found financing for 18 frames already as explained by Stich, I wouldn't doubt they have the muscle to find resources for 20 more.
Quoting InsideMan (Reply 153):
Quoting zkojq (Reply 151):
Why would Singapore or Emirates take one of these Doric aircraft? If they ordered the aircraft themselves they would be entitled to a larger discount from Airbus. After purchase the airlines can always do a similar sale/leaseback deal with a company like Doric, but would pocket more money thanks to the larger discount from Airbus.

While this may be different for the A380, traditionally leasing companies get the most favorable pricing, not airlines.
Besides, Doric said they would place these birds with new operators.

Both very good points! it's always nice to have some other points of view..

As FAEDC3 suggests...

"Don't forget that the Doric order is to be furnished and completed by 2021, that is 8 years from now. Doubling your assets in 8 years of operation is not crazy for a financial institution."

A couple of things come to mind? 1st: That you are indeed right on the timeline, and that again doesn't necessarily imply "pent up demand". 2nd, "Doubling your assets in 8 years of operation is not crazy for a financial institution."
If doubling your assets were that simple, I wonder why ALC (the guy that really started the airline lease thing), GECAS and IFLC have not thought of it?

And as InsideMan suggests...

"traditionally leasing companies get the most favorable pricing, not airlines."

That was indeed true in most cases, except for some of the legacy carriers who use to purchase most their aircraft rather then lease them. But, in the last decade or so (a bit longer I suspect)... particularly since the A320 has been available in large numbers. Any Airline purchasing large enough numbers of aircraft got similar discounts and financing assistance through the OEM's.

However, Doric is Not one of them historically. As they have never ordered directly from the OEM's. At least as far as WB's are concerned? Which makes this order even Stranger in my view...



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25169 posts, RR: 85
Reply 158, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 35170 times:
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Quoting mffoda (Reply 157):
Which makes this order even Stranger in my view...

Why?

It remains essentially the same basic deal that Doric did on the first Singapore A380 - without the intermediate participation of Airbus Finance.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3747 posts, RR: 11
Reply 159, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 35243 times:

The A380 is so far only operating with major carriers, all of which have carefully designed interior products, especially on their A380s. And furnishing the inside of one of these is no cheap or quick affair.

I think the best clue on who is going to be operating these birds would be knowing how they will outfit them on the inside.
I'm pretty certain SQ or EK wuldn't lease an A380 with a generic 3 class lease-company layout. They would have to be outfitted with their own cabins.

On a side note, I wish this would be an opportunity for CX (amongst others) to lease a few of these and unleash them on the LHR and LAX route for a couple of years to see how that goes. A bit like what they did, albeit unsuccessfully, with the A346. But it's a low risk approach.
Anything to get them off their mad love spell with boring big twins, really...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10008 posts, RR: 96
Reply 160, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 34887 times:
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Quoting tortugamon (Reply 156):
these 20 orders come when A is really motivated to sell some frames and probably agreed to a larger discount than they would have a couple years back

Sorry but I disagree with this. Airbus have made it clear that their primary drive on the A380 is to drive the maximum profitability from it.

Rgds


User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2107 posts, RR: 22
Reply 161, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 34731 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 157):
However, Doric is Not one of them historically. As they have never ordered directly from the OEM's. At least as far as WB's are concerned? Which makes this order even Stranger in my view...


Of all the leasing companies you quote, which one has the experience on the 380 - Doric. It has been successful for them, so what do you do stand still or grow. Maybe they can't get their hands on any more 380's that have been delivered, so they bought their own new ones. Makes this order less stranger in my view.

Exciting start to day one.


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3443 posts, RR: 10
Reply 162, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 34746 times:

Quoting astuteman (Reply 160):
Sorry but I disagree with this. Airbus have made it clear that their primary drive on the A380 is to drive the maximum profitability from it.

Then you miss my point, I think this does drive more profitability for Airbus. The revenue may be a little less (more discount) than if it was a normal airline transaction but this transaction potentially could save on marketing costs (do not need to sell those 20 frames, Doric will) production costs (filling slots to keep production high and variable costs low), and further capital market acceptance and exposure reduces costs for future purchasers which drives future sales from Doric or otherwise.

This does not even take into account the finance/accounting/admin cost savings by dealing with only one customer and maybe even production scale if they can order all of their frames in similar configurations/options (not sure about this one).

This is beneficial to both parties and that is why I suggest that Airbus will offer slightly more discount in order to share in these benefits. Whether the additional profit comes from the increased revenue or the decreased expense, it should not matter to A.

tortugamon


User currently offlinedouglasyxz From Germany, joined Jan 2013, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 163, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 34709 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 154):

It is all about delivery slots. LH needs these 320 very early, too early for the NEO backlog. It has been stated that once the NEO production rate goes up, the CEO goes down. They will not be produced in parallel, at least not for long.

Different story for CEO engines for instance, they will be produced much longer than the frames they belong to - regardless if it is a V2500 or CFM.


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 164, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 34476 times:

Quoting col (Reply 161):
Quoting mffoda (Reply 157):
However, Doric is Not one of them historically. As they have never ordered directly from the OEM's. At least as far as WB's are concerned? Which makes this order even Stranger in my view...


Of all the leasing companies you quote, which one has the experience on the 380 - Doric. It has been successful for them, so what do you do stand still or grow. Maybe they can't get their hands on any more 380's that have been delivered, so they bought their own new ones. Makes this order less stranger in my view.

Of all the Leasing companies "I quote"??

The only Leasing company I mentioned beside Doric, that has ordered the A380 is IFLC and they have cancelled all of their A380 orders as far as I know?

Which makes me wonder even more? If the TOP 20 Leasing companies in the world can't find a business case for the A380... How does Doric?   



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6895 posts, RR: 63
Reply 165, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 34439 times:

Quoting sturmovik (Reply 112):
Who's Cathy and what does she need a 777 for?

She's a friend of Doris.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 99):
- engine choice to be made before year-end

Does that imply that one OEM will get the lot? Surely it rather depends on who the end users are? Or are Doric going to strike an advantageous deal with EA or RR and tell airlines to take it or leave it?


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 166, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 34177 times:

Quoting FAEDC3 (Reply 152):
Doric has already found financing for 18 frames already as explained by Stich, I wouldn't doubt they have the muscle to find resources

I have no doubts about this. But so far they took over airframes, which had been ordered by airlines before, meaning there was a certain "guarantee" for the first ten or twelve years. Now it's different, they have to find airlines to lease their A 380s. So for me the most important question is can they find a home for 20 A 380s (something which Airbus didn't achieve) and not so much if Doric will find investors.

As others pointed out, financial help was offered before by Airbus, in particular during the peak of GFC.

Call me pessimistic and sarcastic but I hope we all agree that it would be suicide if they would confirm their order for 20 (!!!) A 380s in the next months without having leasing agreements in place. So either they are currently preparing such leasing agreements while we are discussing here or they will not order 20 aiframes in one batch but in tranches, once the found airlines willing to lease A 380s.


User currently offlineslinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 830 posts, RR: 0
Reply 167, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 34118 times:

A great first day and good A3870 boost.

Anyone know the timings of Airbus press events on day 2?


User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 168, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 34476 times:

Easyjet press release:

[...] "subject to shareholder approval, it has entered into arrangements (the "New Framework Arrangements") with Airbus S.A.S. ("Airbus") to acquire 35 Current Generation A320 Aircraft for delivery between 2015 and 2017 under its existing agreement and 100 New Generation A320neo Aircraft for delivery from 2017 until 2022, under a new agreement. Under this new agreement, Airbus has also granted the Company the right, but not the obligation, to acquire up to 100 further New Generation A320neo Family Aircraft."

http://corporate.easyjet.com/media/l...2013/18-06-2013-en.aspx?sc_lang=en


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25169 posts, RR: 85
Reply 169, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 34073 times:
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Quoting mffoda (Reply 164):
Which makes me wonder even more? If the TOP 20 Leasing companies in the world can't find a business case for the A380... How does Doric?

The more intriguing question is why aren't any of the other leasing companies making money from the A380, as Doric is doing?

A few - not standard lessors - are making money through sale/leaseback, such as Lloyd Funds, who did something similar to Doric:

http://www.wfw.com/webpages/expsearc...t=22D3EB5BCB4A8BE180257956003C63EF

Singapore Airlines sale and leaseback

Advised Singapore Airlines on the sale and leaseback of an Airbus A380, with Hamburg-based closed-end funds initiator Lloyd Fonds. The Airbus A380 was funded in the German KG market. Lloyd Fonds purchased the aircraft from Singapore Airlines with a $74m bridge loan and $111m senior debt from three banks. The KG fund will lease the aircraft to Singapore Airlines for 10 years, with options to extend the lease."


It's about making money.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 166):
So either they are currently preparing such leasing agreements while we are discussing here or they will not order 20 aiframes in one batch but in tranches, once the found airlines willing to lease A 380s.

Either is possible, or both.

I would be surprised (as in fall over in shock) if Doric went into this without some clues as who who might want at least the first few aircraft.

mariner

[Edited 2013-06-17 23:42:45]


aeternum nauta