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HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority  
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8903 times:

Has it been announced yet how the seniority issue will be handled by the three different pilot unions at the three airlines ?I can see this being a very bitter flight between the the three groups as evidenced by the turmoil between the two unions at HP and US that has been going on for years with no resolution

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3889 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8912 times:

Grab the popcorn, this is going to be one SLI battle with lots of fireworks!

User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8770 times:

It'll go something like this, but only less cordially: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJVsS-vIDdc

User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1261 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8718 times:

Its gonna be ugly, ugly, ugly. It will be interesting to see if they can even pull it off. Plenty of discussion fodder for these forums though, that's for certain.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24870 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8614 times:

The integration is spelled out in the AA and US labor agreements which were widely approved by both groups back in February.

In simplistic terms, US pilots would be brought up to AA pay levels (a 13-35% bump), with the AA pilot contract becoming the baseline for the unified group.
The groups and fleets would operate separately until a single union was selected to represent the combined group.

Any disputes arising would be sent to binding arbitration.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8467 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
The integration is spelled out in the AA and US labor agreements which were widely approved by both groups back in February.

In simplistic terms, US pilots would be brought up to AA pay levels (a 13-35% bump), with the AA pilot contract becoming the baseline for the unified group.
The groups and fleets would operate separately until a single union was selected to represent the combined group.

Any disputes arising would be sent to binding arbitration.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
The integration is spelled out in the AA and US labor agreements which were widely approved by both groups back in February.

In simplistic terms, US pilots would be brought up to AA pay levels (a 13-35% bump), with the AA pilot contract becoming the baseline for the unified group.
The groups and fleets would operate separately until a single union was selected to represent the combined group.

Any disputes arising would be sent to binding arbitration.

What about the HP pilots who belong to a differant union than the AA or US pilots As far as binding arbitration goes, the world is still waiting for the US pilots to live up to their binding arbitration wih HP pilots. You gave story about the pay but neglected the seniopity issue


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2241 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8443 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Thread starter):
Has it been announced yet how the seniority issue will be handled by the three different pilot unions at the three airlines ?

Two groups, and two unions. APA at AA, and USAPA at US. The HP (aka US West) pilots are technically/legally represented by USAPA, though USAPA hasn't even demonstrated it can represent the US East pilot interests, other than pushing a specific seniority scheme and ignoring a valid arbitration. The US East group has the lowest compensation of any major airline. That alone speaks volumes.

USAPA and APA will both have to present a seniority list. APA's list is not under question. USAPA's is. USAPA wants to present a list based on date of hire, vs the legally arbitrated list that combined HP and US seniority lists. As soon as they submit anything other than the arbitrated list, the West pilots have a valid legal case against USAPA, with possible culpability extending to any other party who participates in the use of the alternate list. In this case, US Airways, American, and APA.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Any disputes arising would be sent to binding arbitration.

Some think the SLI may go to a three way arbitration. But, the East pilots have already demonstrated their word and honor of arbitration is nil.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
The groups and fleets would operate separately until a single union was selected to represent the combined group.

No doubt, the surviving union will be APA. They out number USAPA members by far, and the West pilots will all support APA. APA is sharp enough to not get drug into the East vs West battle, and will insist on a legally acceptable list being submitted for negotiations, and eventual arbitration.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlinenws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 883 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8387 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 6):
But, the East pilots have already demonstrated their word and honor of arbitration is nil.

I still fail to understand how binding arbitration isn't binding to USAPA.


User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1261 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8350 times:

Keep dreaming. Its going to be a bloodbath with every group out for themselves.

User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8315 times:

So I have a friend from college who was furloughed TW, US & HP and was recently recalled, what Sr does he get???

-m

  


User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8288 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
The integration is spelled out in the AA and US labor agreements which were widely approved by both groups back in February.

In simplistic terms, US pilots would be brought up to AA pay levels (a 13-35% bump), with the AA pilot contract becoming the baseline for the unified group.
The groups and fleets would operate separately until a single union was selected to represent the combined group.

Any disputes arising would be sent to binding arbitration.

So this is written into US/HP current but separate pilot contracts is it a legally binding document?? Because if it is not who is to say that US Airways management will keep their word? It would be beneficial for US/AA management to leave the US/HP pilots pay right where it is until they have a contract because they would save money. It is the right thing to do of course not the right thing to do is to honor your word that you gave to your pilots but if it is just an agreement and not contractual who is going to make US/AA pay up?

And it still does not deal with the major issue of seniority integration if US management can't integrate 2 pilot unions and they've had at least 7 years to do so how long will it take US/AA management to integrate 3 pilot unions and AA's pilot union is not about to go to the back of the line when dealing with this issue.


User currently offlineripcordd From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1149 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8155 times:

how hard is to go with date of hire

User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5424 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8112 times:

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 11):
how hard is to go with date of hire

In this case it is easier, but with HP and US you had a much younger airline essentially taking over an airline with a much older date of hire group (pilots in this case) and that makes it more complicated (it not wise or good management to abandon and essentially screw over the employees -pilots- that helped get you the position that enabled you to take over/merge/buy/integrate with the other airline).

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3889 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8114 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
The integration is spelled out in the AA and US labor agreements which were widely approved by both groups back in February.

In simplistic terms, US pilots would be brought up to AA pay levels (a 13-35% bump), with the AA pilot contract becoming the baseline for the unified group.
The groups and fleets would operate separately until a single union was selected to represent the combined group.

Any disputes arising would be sent to binding arbitration.

Easier said than done. Just ask the Mesaba, Pinnacle and Colgan pilots how that three way marriage worked out. Further, an arbitrated award is what got HP and US into the current mess they're in. Just because it's arbitrated, doesn't make it any easier nor does it solve the problems.


User currently offlineusxguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1010 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8068 times:

What happened with US is that the arbitrator put a ton of US pilots at the VERY bottom of HP's list, because ALPA considered them 'furloughed' despite some 300 of them were flying USAirways aircraft (MidAtlantic, on the US operating certificate) while still paying ALPA dues. USAirways really messed this one up by calling the E170 an Express plane while operating it on the mainline certificate.

So you have these 300 or so pilots, some who have been flying *continuously* for 16 years, getting a paycheck from USAirways, being told their time at MDA didn't count, so they are behind 22/23 y/o FO's fresh out of a regional.

That's when the US pilots threw out ALPA before they could submit the list to US management and the new union came into play. Parker & Kirby haven't been pushing for a single contract either, they have been enjoying the economics of 2 separate work groups.



xx
User currently offlinenwcoflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 689 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7775 times:

So you have these 300 or so pilots, some who have been flying *continuously* for 16 years, getting a paycheck from USAirways, being told their time at MDA didn't count, so they are behind 22/23 y/o FO's fresh out of a regional.

Who at America West is 24???!!



The New American is arriving.
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2241 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7653 times:

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 7):
I still fail to understand how binding arbitration isn't binding to USAPA.

You, and the rest of the world.

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 11):
how hard is to go with date of hire

Date of hire would have taken HP captains and put them on the street in favor of US first officers who were on furlough for many years. Explain the fairness of that please sir.

This is the kind of issue in a merger of seniority lists that has to be considered by an arbitrator. In the end, they come up with a "Relative Seniority" position. As a general rule, you end up right at, or a percentage or two above/below where you were in your group, but at the same relative position in the combined group. The first 500 plus positions went to US captains. So the #1 HP captain now finds himself no longer #1. However, in the big picture, his relative position of seniority in the now bigger group, is no better or worse because of the dynamics of group size. The US guys that ended up on the bottom, were, in fact, on furlough from US. Doesn't matter that they were flying at another company that was ALPA or not, flying US express or not. They were on furlough. Nearly unemployed. DOH would have given them the jobs of another person. Another person who was flying for a carrier that wasn't on the verge of a repeat bankruptcy.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 13):
an arbitrated award is what got HP and US into the current mess they're in.

Negative. Both pilot groups agreed to binding arbitration. The US side reniged on that when the arbitration didn't come out to their liking.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 14):
Parker & Kirby haven't been pushing for a single contract either, they have been enjoying the economics of 2 separate work

There isn't much Parker or Kirby can do about the contract. It's all in USAPA's hands. Parker, Kirby, and the company have no say for the most part. It's a Labor issue that Labor has to solve before the company can negotiate in good faith. USAPA has handed the company a great deal on cheap pilot labor for many years.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 61
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7603 times:

Right now, the whole situation is like the Balkans - everybody is playing nice for the cameras because they all want the money.

But in the end, as others have said, make no mistake: this seniority integration is going to get ugly, and inevitably end up in arbitration and then likely in the courts.

While USAPA's position may be that this will only involve two labor groups with two seniority list, we obviously know the West pilots don't feel that way (and for very good reason, in my opinion). They will drag USAPA into court in a second when given the opportunity.

The ultimate outcome - arbitrated, litigated, or otherwise - is necessarily going to be complex, with all sorts of quotas and fences (around aircraft, positions and/or domiciles). It is a virtual certainty that not everyone will be happy. The question is whether they can satisfy enough people to still make it work - as happened at Delta. Given the internal trench warfare that has plagued USAPA for years, that will be a challenge.

We shall see ...


User currently offlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 577 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7495 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
Negative. Both pilot groups agreed to binding arbitration. The US side reniged on that when the arbitration didn't come out to their liking.

I'm still struggling here. Both pilot groups agreed to binding arbitration. Isn't that non-negotiable?

I understand that US didn't like the way arbitration came out, but aren't they legally obligated to follow that course of action? I must be missing something, because this sounds too cut-and-dry to be problematic ...



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7471 times:

Quoting usxguy (Reply 14):

Those pilots were officially furloughed from US at the time. They had to be in order to take the "transfer" to Mid Atlantic.

As for the final arbitration award, the East pilot group presented that list to the arbitration panel and never filed an appeal after the arbitration.

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 11):
how hard is to go with date of hire

Extremely hard when it would take senior captains at one airline and make them junior FOs at the combined airline. At least with the arbitration award everyone maintained a similar seniority position relative to the full pilot group. Guys only moved a few percentage points one way or the other. In fact, most of the West guys actually lost ground in terms of percentages.

Unless you want to use date of issuance for a commercial ticket or ATP. That doesn't punish someone that moves from one airline to another. Hell, if you want to rank everyone by total hours flown, that makes more sense than simply with date of hire at a company. Especially when US Airways was created by a number of mergers over the years that were not handled by date of hire. I bet the TWA guys would love that too.


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3889 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7421 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
Negative. Both pilot groups agreed to binding arbitration. The US side reniged on that when the arbitration didn't come out to their liking.

I think we're saying the same thing. Arbitration is not always an easy solution and I cite the US/HP arbitration mess as a perfect example. So yes, arbitration got themselves into this mess.


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2241 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7322 times:

Quoting AA94 (Reply 18):
I'm still struggling here. Both pilot groups agreed to binding arbitration. Isn't that non-negotiable?

I understand that US didn't like the way arbitration came out, but aren't they legally obligated to follow that course of action? I must be missing something, because this sounds too cut-and-dry to be problematic ...

You, I , and the entire civilized world get it. USAPA does not get it. The court cases on this over tha last 7 years are an interesting read. For a court to permit anything other than the arbitrated list, or perhaps a new 3 way arbitration, would set a precedent that would destroy arbitration as a tool. The repercusions would go well beyond this subject and industry.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 20):
So yes, arbitration got themselves into this mess.


I don't think we are saying anything similar. Arbitration came to be because the parties could not agree by other means. THAT is what got them to arbitration.

If not arbitration, what do you believe would be the proper course to a fair integration?



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineTW870 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7237 times:
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Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
Negative. Both pilot groups agreed to binding arbitration. The US side reniged on that when the arbitration didn't come out to their liking.
Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 6):
Some think the SLI may go to a three way arbitration. But, the East pilots have already demonstrated their word and honor of arbitration is nil.

I believe that McCaskill-Bond might actually make this easier. Once that law passed in 2008 (in the wake of the AA-TW flight attendant fiasco), everyone MUST agree to binding arbitration. If I have my time frame right, the US-HP merger took place prior to McCaskill-Bond. That meant that all merger seniority agreements were purely voluntary. The reason for that, of course, was that the DoT stopped enforcing Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions as they had been in mergers during the regulated era.

McCaskill-Bond ultimately says that all parties must agree to a fair and equitable seniority deal, and if one is absent, that binding arbitration decides. Since US-HP is still in dispute, I am not sure what latitude the arbitrator has to make a decision in that case. My hope is that it would be a 3-way arbitration, with the arbitrator's decision final. And that is how I read McCaskill-Bond. But that might just be too optimistic.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7139 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 6):
But, the East pilots have already demonstrated their word and honor of arbitration is nil.

That only mattered because they far outnumbered the HP pilots.

I don't think the AA guys are going to put up with their crap.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 14):
So you have these 300 or so pilots, some who have been flying *continuously* for 16 years, getting a paycheck from USAirways, being told their time at MDA didn't count, so they are behind 22/23 y/o FO's fresh out of a regional.

A little exaggerated. Yes, those 300 pilots would be junior to the most junior HP F/O, who was hired in 1999. While the East has done some hiring (for the E190s), West hasn't.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3889 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6996 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 21):
I don't think we are saying anything similar. Arbitration came to be because the parties could not agree by other means. THAT is what got them to arbitration.

If not arbitration, what do you believe would be the proper course to a fair integration?

I'm not saying arbitration was or was not the right course of action and I know what got them INTO arbitration. My initial point, from the very beginning was that arbitration, to which BOTH sides agreed to, was the little gem that has put the US and HP pilot groups into the situation they're in now. You're right, nothing was mutually agreed to prior to arbitration, but that's not the point. The point is that the US pilots were unhappy with the arbitrators decision and the whole situation has spiraled out of control since then. So yes, arbitration is what has landed US/HP in the mess they find themselves in.

Once again, I initially commented that arbitration is not as simple as LAXintl alleges and I site the US/HP and Mesaba/Pinnacle/Colgan groups as examples. I'm not taking sides on the US/HP debate, but merely using it as an example of how arbitrations can go wrong.


25 Post contains images Revelation : Personally, I feel the fact that there's a lot of money on the table and a larger, existing union in place, on top of the weariness the parties in th
26 WA707atMSP : This is why I've always felt an AA - US merger would be a disaster for everyone except AA/US's competitors. When you combine one airline (AA) whose p
27 silentbob : The East pilot group seems hell bent on re-ordering their seniority list to a pre-HP merger list with the HP guys merged into their list by date of h
28 ckfred : The first question that comes to mind is how does the seniority at AA, US East, and US West skew? We know that compared to UA, DL, and WN, AA's pilots
29 SPREE34 : That would probably be the most expeditious and least resisited route. Well, as long as the USAPA participants will actually agree to arbitrator's de
30 Post contains links TW870 : But as I said above, I think the passage of McCaskill-Bond in 2007 - which was not in effect during the original HP-US pilot ordeal - means that now
31 catiii : I think this whole thing is going to be overblown. At a larger carrier, it is much easier to run an airline with separate seniority lists than at a s
32 usxguy : Silentbob, I know a handful of guys who went directly from USAirways "mainline" into indoc training for the E170 program - they said almost no one fr
33 Flaps : Can I try try some of what you're smoking.....Please The AA union raped the TW and Reno pilots. The US East pilots have been walking all over the US
34 MaverickM11 : Not their problem if part or all of the union decided to self-immolate. It was/is an entirely internal union issue. Hopefully we're pleasantly surpri
35 LDVAviation : Why would there be labor unrest against the new AA? It is a conflict between employee groups, not between the company and its employees.
36 WA707atMSP : If one of the employee groups feel they have been treated unfairly, there is a good chance they will have a sick out and / or a slow down, in order t
37 Post contains images lightsaber : The East pilots messed up the first arbitration. But correct me if I'm wrong, until the new contract is signed, pilots remain at the old pay rate? I c
38 apodino : Except that the last of the AA pilots on furlough has been offered recall. There are a couple of more dynamics in play here than there were before. O
39 LDVAviation : Treated unfairly by the company? Yes. But I fail to see the connection between a slowdown at the new AA and a conflict between employee groups. How w
40 Revelation : In the great scheme of things, that's no cage brawl. You might want to note I said it'd make for a "smoother integration" and not a love fest. The in
41 Flaps : That "alignment' will disappear the instant the seniority integration talks begin.
42 AA94 : We've got one pilot union notorious for its volatile nature, and another union that can't even present a combined seniority list seven years after it
43 bobnwa : "We" don't all know that
44 lightsaber : That is a good thing. I hope you are right and I am wrong. Lightsaber
45 superjeff : HP literally rescued US from almost certain liquidation. US was operating in bankruptcy with little chance of a successful reorganization if not for H
46 catiii : I don't see it having an impact on the operation, no. Whatever labor issues they have amongst themselves they're going to have amongst themselves, bu
47 Flighty : LOL. And where would HP pilots be today, without the US east network? I don't really think WN would have bought HP. So that leaves them... disappeari
48 Slcpilot : Me: "With the merging of the three pilot groups, you'll have strife like you do in Iraq with the Shia, the Sunni, and the Kurds, only without the car
49 Maverick623 : Actually, the East pilots were demonstrably slowing down the operation, and were slapped on the wrist for it by a federal judge.
50 SPREE34 : Probably still flying for a reduced size HP, or merged with a different carrier. Eveb if they started over at another carrier, their pay would be hig
51 HPRamper : That's a fun topic in itself. I think seeing as Doug Parker was at the helm, they would have merged with someone else. US just happened to be a very
52 Maverick623 : Exactly. HP saved US from immediate liquidation. US gave HP a little play room with their money during the 2008-11 economic meltdown. With either CO,
53 silentbob : I think you hit upon a critical factor there, Parker is the reason HP and US are still around.
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