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Paris Air Show 2013 -- Engine Orders  
User currently offlinePresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 662 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4728 times:

There does not appear to be a thread dedicated to PAS engine orders.

Here are a news stories:

http://www.stockhouse.com/news/usreleasesdetail.aspx?n=8903869

http://www.rttnews.com/2136781/pratt...-all-nippon-airways.aspx?type=corp

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/chi...r-pratt-whitney-engines-2013-06-17

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25540 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4390 times:

Spirit selects PW1100 for its 45 A320NEO's, and more V2500 for its 30 A320CEO's on order.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/spirit...cts-purepower-v2500-145900772.html


ILFC selects CFM Leap for its 60 A320NEOs.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ilfc-e...s-leap-engine-order-120000823.html


Aviation Capital Group selects PW1100 for its 12 firm A320NEO orders.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/aviati...group-selects-pratt-114600796.html

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinePresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 662 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4296 times:

Pratt is having a mighty fine air show.

User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13161 posts, RR: 100
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4249 times:
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I wonder why Pratt is doing so well on Chinese A330s...    No complaints, I'm just curious.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):

Spirit selects PW1100 for its 45 A320NEO's, and more V2500 for its 30 A320CEO's on order.

Good to see no defection.  
Quoting PresRDC (Reply 2):

Pratt is having a mighty fine air show.

About time! But not as good as I hoped. Although the E2 initial orders were impressive. I'm waiting for a new C-series or MRJ order...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25540 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4019 times:

ILFC selects PW1100 for its 30 additional A320NEO orders.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ilfc-s...t-whitney-purepower-084000989.html

ALC also signs for the PW1100 on its 30 A320/A321NEO order.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/air-le...ation-selects-pratt-123800902.html

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25540 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3997 times:

And Norwegian selects the PW1100 for its A320NEO family orders.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/norweg...uttle-selects-pratt-114200405.html

What a strong showing for PW this show !



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3911 times:

PR picks V2500 engines for its previously announced 34-frame A321 order.....

http://www.pw.utc.com/Press/Story/20130618-0803/0000/All%20Categories



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently onliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2641 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3719 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
ILFC selects CFM Leap for its 60 A320NEOs.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ilfc-e....html
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
ILFC selects PW1100 for its 30 additional A320NEO orders.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ilfc-s...t-whitney-purepower-084000989.html

There is a mix-up between number of engines and number of aircraft in these links. I interpret that for the 50 new aircraft orders, 20 a/c will be powered by Leap, and 30 a/c by PW1100, but it's confusing.

AFAIK the previous 100-frame ILFC order had already been split 40/60 between Leap/PW.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3580 times:

As expected, PR selects RR's Trent 700 to power their 20 HGW A330s on order.....

http://www.rollsroyce.com/news/press...3/19062013_philippine_airlines.jsp

[Edited 2013-06-20 15:43:31]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineraggi From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 1001 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3476 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 8):

Wow, big win for RR.

Why do you say as expected? PR's current A330s are all GE-CF6.


raggi



Stick & Rudder
User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 611 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3389 times:

http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v7/bu/newsbusiness.php?id=957288
http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story...business/13269693&sec=business
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...n-cfm-engines-for-a320-planes.html
http://www.4-traders.com/SAFRAN-4696...BILLION-CFM-ENGINE-ORDER-17036925/
http://business.asiaone.com/news/airasia-inks-rm27b-deal-100-engines
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...asia-in-us-8-6b-engine/717956.html

These and many others are reporting similar figures. Crazy.
Is AirAsia powering their A320s with GE90s or what?
For the life of me, I just can't compute.
US$8.6 billion - list price - for 214 CFM56/LEAP1As?
That's a tad over US$40 an engine or close to list price of a GE90-115?
Even factoring in the following does not by any stretch of wild imaginations lend credence: "inclusive of a 20-year rate per flight hour agreement, where CFM International would guarantee maintenance costs on a dollar per engine flight hour basis".
A case of terrible reporting by clueless journalists and aping by other sources without proper knowledge and checking? Unforgivable!


Finally, this is more sane; a needle in a haystack of the same erroneous figure.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...w-cfm-airasia-idUSWEB006V920130619



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlinePresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 662 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3335 times:

Quoting raggi (Reply 9):
Why do you say as expected? PR's current A330s are all GE-CF6.

Of the three OEMs, Rolls has the most resources to throw at A330 customers. GE and Pratt are busy investing in wins on other product lines and the A330 is not as high a priority for them as it is for Rolls. Some will argue that it has to do with engine performance. Those of us who've worked on engine selection campaigns know that it comes down to money at the end of the day.


User currently offlineLH707330 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3292 times:

Quoting PresRDC (Reply 11):
Some will argue that it has to do with engine performance. Those of us who've worked on engine selection campaigns know that it comes down to money at the end of the day.

Right, and money is a function of performance. Ceteris paribus, performance wins the contract....


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6926 posts, RR: 63
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3162 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
I wonder why Pratt is doing so well on Chinese A330s...

Hate to burst your bubble but they have just one customer - China Southern. That gives them about 10% of the Chinese market. RR have 90% (and six customers) and GE have no presence on A330s in China. There are currently 110 A330s in service in Mainland China and 11 of them have PW.

If you add in Hong Kong Airlines (a branch of Hainan) then PW can add another six frames taken when Grupo Marsans folded but they were hardly 'selected'. The planes were already built and Hainan has remained with RR for all their other orders. And, if you add Hong Kong Airlines, then you need to add Cathay and Dragonair who between them have 50+ A330s - all with RR.

The real (only) question is why China Southern chose RR for their first 14 A330s, then switched to PW for the next 10 (ordered in March 2008) and then stayed with PW for their latest order when everyone else preferred RR.

Actually, that's not the only question.  

The Airbus May O&D sheet shows China Southern with 30 A330s on order (16 x -200 and 14 x -300) with all the -200s and 9 -300s already delivered. So if the December 2010 order for six (announced at the time as being for 'China') are for China Southern, that means that there are just five more -300s to come. One was delivered yesterday (21st June) and another has already flown.

It also means that these press releases:

Quoting PresRDC (Thread starter):
http://www.rttnews.com/2136781/pratt...-all-nippon-airways.aspx?type=corp

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/chi...06-17

And, indeed, this one:

http://www.pw.utc.com/Press/Story/20130617-0300/0007/All%20Categories

may actually refer not to a new order (for I've seen none) but to the existing fleet, some of which are already three years old.

Or have I missed a new order for sixteen A330s for China Southern?


User currently offlinePresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 662 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3010 times:

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 12):
Right, and money is a function of performance. Ceteris paribus, performance wins the contract....

When the final negotiations are happening, it is all about money. The performance differences between engines are usually not significant enough to drive the decision in that performance guarantees, maintenance plans, etc. can be crafted to compensate for any perceived differences.

Now, of course, if the airline thought the engine could not perform their expected missions, the final negotiations would not happen, but by the time you are negotiating the final terms, the engineering issues have been resolved. I should also say that engine selection does not necessarily mean that a contract has been finalized and, when the specific details need to be worked-out, the technical folks would be involved.

Quoting PM (Reply 13):
may actually refer not to a new order (for I've seen none) but to the existing fleet, some of which are already three years old.

This is an incremental order. Why would any company put out a press release about a contract that was finalized over 3 years ago, especially when that company has had no shortage of other positive news to report? They would not.

Simply put, the A330 market is not that important to P&W right now and it is not worht spending significant amounts of money to win A330 campaigns. That money is better spent winning A320neo campaigns. P&W is strategic in which A330 campaigns it wants to win and, when this happens, it competes well with RR. Recent evidence would be China Southern and MAS.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6926 posts, RR: 63
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2840 times:

Quoting PresRDC (Reply 14):
This is an incremental order.

Excellent. Another 16 A330s. All we need now is for Airbus and/or China Southern to make any reference to it. Strange they haven't...     

Quoting PresRDC (Reply 14):
Why would any company put out a press release about a contract that was finalized over 3 years ago?

My guess? Read the small print.

"China Southern Airlines has selected Pratt & Whitney's PW4170 Advantage70™ engine to power its order of 16 Airbus A330 aircraft.

The contract, which is valued at $1.29 billion, also includes a 15-year Fleet Management Plan for engine maintenance.

Pratt & Whitney offers the Advantage70 both as a new engine and as an upgrade kit for existing engines."


It's just a guess but I wonder if they have chosen the Advantage 70 for the six new ones currently being delivered and as an upgrade for the ten older ones. And why announce it now? Because it's the Paris Air Show.

Last week RR announced that Transaero had ordered Trent 1000s for their 787s but that was know a year or more ago. I'm guessing PW are playing the same game.

Quoting PresRDC (Reply 14):
P&W is strategic in which A330 campaigns it wants to win and, when this happens, it competes well with RR. Recent evidence would be China Southern and MAS.

But now I fear you are getting a little fanciful. PW "choose" which customers they want and don't worry about the others? Hmmm. So they decided to keep Malaysia but didn't mind losing Thai or US Airways? I see. And they decided they wanted China Southern but didn't want China Eastern or Air China? Right.

And if PW have been "strategic" in choosing customers... Well, their record is a bit patchy. Grupo Marsans and Kingfisher? Oops.

So far this year PW have delivered (so I assume built) ten (10) PW4170 engines. Say, one every two weeks.

So far this year RR have delivered (so I assume built) eighty (80) Trent 700 engines. Say, one every two days.

But PW don't much care about churning them out quicker and, presumably, gaining economies of scale? Oh well, if you say so.

But hey, as an RR fan, I'm just grateful that PW are stepping aside so often and saying to RR, "No, you have this one. Really. We don't want it." Thank you!  


User currently offlineLH707330 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2808 times:

Quoting PresRDC (Reply 14):
When the final negotiations are happening, it is all about money. The performance differences between engines are usually not significant enough to drive the decision in that performance guarantees, maintenance plans, etc. can be crafted to compensate for any perceived differences.

True, which is why I added the "ceteris paribus" bit in there.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2761 times:

Quoting PresRDC (Reply 11):
GE and Pratt are busy investing in wins on other product lines and the A330 is not as high a priority for them as it is for Rolls. Some will argue that it has to do with engine performance. Those of us who've worked on engine selection campaigns know that it comes down to money at the end of the day.

Given that PR is obviously not among the most moneyed airlines around, one would think that GE had the upperhand here due to its financial muscle. However, you're suggesting that GE could not be bothered with this 'small' order.

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 12):
Right, and money is a function of performance. Ceteris paribus, performance wins the contract....
Quoting PresRDC (Reply 14):
Now, of course, if the airline thought the engine could not perform their expected missions, the final negotiations would not happen

Thus the Trent 700, having the highest thrust rating of the three engines, was selected to power this HGW variant which will be flown (at the limits of its range) to the Middle East, in a very high density configuration.

   One can just imagine the boxes 418 pax could bring!    Good idea to have some reserve power there.

All the foregoing a rather roundabout way of answering this.....

Quoting raggi (Reply 9):
Why do you say as expected? PR's current A330s are all GE-CF6.

.....that PR intends to retire. They'd be left with CFM on their A320s, GE on the 744s (gallantly soldiering on with the A340s), IAE on the incoming A321s and P&W on the NEOs.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineraggi From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 1001 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2696 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 17):
Thus the Trent 700, having the highest thrust rating of the three engines, was selected to power this HGW variant which will be flown (at the limits of its range) to the Middle East, in a very high density configuration

hmm, do not all three offer 72K now in their latest iterations?

Quoting PM (Reply 15):
But now I fear you are getting a little fanciful. PW "choose" which customers they want and don't worry about the others? Hmmm. So they decided to keep Malaysia but didn't mind losing Thai or US Airways? I see. And they decided they wanted China Southern but didn't want China Eastern or Air China? Right.

And if PW have been "strategic" in choosing customers... Well, their record is a bit patchy. Grupo Marsans and Kingfisher? Oops.

So far this year PW have delivered (so I assume built) ten (10) PW4170 engines. Say, one every two weeks.

So far this year RR have delivered (so I assume built) eighty (80) Trent 700 engines. Say, one every two days.

But PW don't much care about churning them out quicker and, presumably, gaining economies of scale? Oh well, if you say so.

All good points, PM! Especially US, that must have been a blow for PW...

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 17):
that PR intends to retire. They'd be left with CFM on their A320s, GE on the 744s (gallantly soldiering on with the A340s), IAE on the incoming A321s and P&W on the NEOs.

And don't forget the GE90 on the 777s. Which made me sure that GE would land this deal for the 330s also.


raggi



Stick & Rudder
User currently offlinegiblets From UK - England, joined Jun 2013, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2566 times:

It seems to me that GE just don't seem as interested in Airbus wide bodies as such, Leahy has openly vented his frustration on this:
Mr Leahy said, "GE seems to go to Seattle and say, 'Show us your airframe and tell us what you need in terms of an engine.' Then they come to Toulouse (France) and say, 'Here's our engine and here's what we suggest you do to change your airframe to accommodate it to our engine.' I'm not sure that's the best sales tack and that's the problem we have right now."
"You don't design the engine for Boeing, come over to Toulouse and say, 'If you would just make your plane a little lighter and change the range, we could make it work with our engine.' That isn't what we want. We want a new engine and that's what GE has to come to grips with building, just like Rolls-Royce did."

I read that one of the issues for the A340, in which they has to settle with the CFM-56.


User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13161 posts, RR: 100
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2461 times:
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Quoting PM (Reply 13):
Hate to burst your bubble but they have just one customer - China Southern. That gives them about 10% of the Chinese market. RR have 90% (and six customers) and GE have no presence on A330s in China.

You're not bursting my bubble. China Southern is helping keep Pratt 'alive' on the A330. It might be the others use Pratt to negotiate better deals while China Southern took the Pratt deal.   

I'm well aware RR is dominating on the A330.   

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13161 posts, RR: 100
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2452 times:
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Quoting giblets (Reply 19):
Mr Leahy said, "GE seems to go to Seattle and say, 'Show us your airframe and tell us what you need in terms of an engine.' Then they come to Toulouse (France) and say, 'Here's our engine and here's what we suggest you do to change your airframe to accommodate it to our engine.' I'm not sure that's the best sales tack and that's the problem we have right now."

For an exclusive, one had best have the first attitude... Pratt certainly has with Airbus (even for non-exclusives).

Quoting giblets (Reply 19):
I read that one of the issues for the A340, in which they has to settle with the CFM-56.

The issue with the early A340s is that Pratt had promised a custom GTF and then realized they had quite a bit of work to do on the gearboxes. So Airbus needed an engine quick. When you need an engine quick, that means utilizing an existing core. And thus the CFM-56-5C. It has a high pressure ration low spool to power the larger fan. (This is not what is best for climb efficiency at all, hence why most engines have higher pressure ratio high spools.)

But Airbus didn't complain when GE re-used the CF6 core for launching the A330. It worked and started sales! Its just that Pratt and RR did far more customized engines and dominated the market.

Quoting raggi (Reply 18):
All good points, PM! Especially US, that must have been a blow for PW...

Pratt didn't meet US' requirements. Many of the problems with getting out the PW4175 stem straight from US' strict requirements. e.g., they contractually bound Pratt to no nacelle changes from the PW4168 unless Pratt paid for 100% of the costs of retrofitting *all* of US' fleet. And then the compressor vent surges were too hot for the existing nacelle materials and Pratt was put into a bind... hence the PW4170A...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinePresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 662 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2342 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 15):
But now I fear you are getting a little fanciful. PW "choose" which customers they want and don't worry about the others? Hmmm. So they decided to keep Malaysia but didn't mind losing Thai or US Airways? I see. And they decided they wanted China Southern but didn't want China Eastern or Air China? Right.

And if PW have been "strategic" in choosing customers... Well, their record is a bit patchy. Grupo Marsans and Kingfisher? Oops.

So far this year PW have delivered (so I assume built) ten (10) PW4170 engines. Say, one every two weeks.

So far this year RR have delivered (so I assume built) eighty (80) Trent 700 engines. Say, one every two days.

But PW don't much care about churning them out quicker and, presumably, gaining economies of scale? Oh well, if you say so.

But hey, as an RR fan, I'm just grateful that PW are stepping aside so often and saying to RR, "No, you have this one. Really. We don't want it." Thank you!

I think you do not really understand the economics of the jet engine business, I'm afraid.

The A330 market is not a priority for P&W. Simple as that. Every dollar spent on an A330 campaign is a dollar less that can be spent on a A320neo or other GTF campaign. UTC rightly keeps P&W on a tight leash when it comes to FIA spend and decisions are made where to spend that money based on strategic concerns. Now, I'm not saying that P&W always gets it right (you note two good examples where they did not) and I am not saying that P&W wins every A330 campaign that it wants to win, because it does not, but it simply does not chose to agressively compete in that many A330 campaigns.

I should clarify, when I say "choses not to agressively compete", that does not mean that P&W has any agreement with RR or GE not to go after a customer, nor does it mean that P&W doesn't want the business. If a customer wants to buy a PW4170 at a break even FIA level, then P&W will happily sell the engines, but it is not willing to lose money on most A330 deals and when you sell an engine, you book a loss provision.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 17):
Thus the Trent 700, having the highest thrust rating of the three engines, was selected to power this HGW variant which will be flown (at the limits of its range) to the Middle East, in a very high density configuration.

If the engine cannot operate the mission, no amount of financial compensation from the engine OEM is going to make the customer whole.

Quoting raggi (Reply 18):
All good points, PM! Especially US, that must have been a blow for PW...

Not so much . . .

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
You're not bursting my bubble. China Southern is helping keep Pratt 'alive' on the A330. It might be the others use Pratt to negotiate better deals while China Southern took the Pratt deal.

The intial China Southern deal took a lot of people by surprise . . . inside P&W!


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2330 times:

Quoting PresRDC (Reply 22):

You bring up some great points PresRDC.

Additionally, P&W has a very large military presence in the market place. (F-22, F-35, C-17 & KC-46A to name few)... All of which will need replacements and upgrades.



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlinePresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 662 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2292 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 23):
Additionally, P&W has a very large military presence in the market place. (F-22, F-35, C-17 & KC-46A to name few)... All of which will need replacements and upgrades.

With the F-22 now out of production and C-17 production winding down, P&W's military business is taking a hit, at least until the F-35s and KC-46As start rolling off the line in greater numbers. Unlike the commercial engine business, OEMs make money selling military engines. P&W is also hurt to the extent that the U.S. military decides to go to a lower readiness rate and orders fewer spare parts.

Pratt has a serious short term problem. On the commercial side, it's installed base is shrinking rapidly (paying the price for poor business decisions and technical performance in recent decades) and it's R&D/program development costs are at their peak with bringing the GTF to market. This means less spare parts revenue (with its high margins) and lot's of spending. On the military side, two key programs have either stopped or are winding down and spares orders are declining. It is going to be a very challenging few years for P&W, but, assuming the GTF performs as the data seems to indicate that it will, the upside is enourmous.


25 Post contains images PM : Pratt and Rolls "dominated the market"? Well, RR do - now - but GE have actually outsold and outdelivered PW on the A330. Not by a lot, but still. PW
26 PresRDC : True or false, an engine OEM loses money on the sale of a commercial engine? True or fale, companies are in business to make money? True or false, if
27 PM : Well, RR seems to have found a model that works for them. They are neither losing money nor going out of business. And they are going after A330 sale
28 trex8 : Per JP Fleets the new PR A333s will only be 230K MTOW.
29 PresRDC : Because they are sitting out the narrowbody competitions, they have more money to spend winning A330 deals. Whether P&W's decision to shy away fr
30 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Airbus was just showing the PIPs for the engines offered on the A330's page the other day...but I no longer see it. No thrust boost was mentioned. Th
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