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Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747  
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10665 posts, RR: 30
Posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 18979 times:

Garuda Indonesia is considering the purchase of the A380 or 747-8i in partnership with its government to help ferry religious pilgrims to Saudi Arabia.

> Garuda want three to five VLA's for the Hajj Trips
> Garuda is evaluating both A380 and 747-8i
> A purchase may come "very soon"
> First delivery in 2015

Story here:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...8-against-a380-for-hajj-trips.html


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4700 posts, RR: 38
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 18981 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):

Garuda Indonesia is considering the purchase of the A380 or 747-8i in partnership with its government to help ferry religious pilgrims to Saudi Arabia.

There has been rumours of this before. So now it seems to be getting more and more serious that Garuda will purchase up to 5 VLA's. Hope they will go for the A380 of course.  


User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12374 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 18878 times:
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Well, it's know that Airbus has a couple of slots in 2015. Maybe that's why the LH deal for two more hasn't been signed yet?   

Could Boeing deliver 748is to a new customer in 2015?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10665 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 18796 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 2):
Could Boeing deliver 748is to a new customer in 2015?

Yes, they can. There are many open delivery slots for the 747 in 2015.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9708 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 18591 times:

Besides these Hajj flights, on which other routes does GA intend to use those A380's/748's? I assume those Hajj flights aren't yearround(?)

A388


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10631 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 18430 times:

They surely wont fly from Denpasar 
Quoting A388 (Reply 4):

Besides these Hajj flights, on which other routes does GA intend to use those A380's/748's? I assume those Hajj flights aren't yearround(?)

A388

Not just Hadj, there are pilgrims flying to Mekka etc all year round, Lionair is flying some with their two 744s. Remember that Indonesia is the most populous islamic country.
But I am surprised this traffic justifies about 5 VLAs year round.


User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 605 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 18298 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
Hope they will go for the A380 of course.    

And I hope they will go for the 748i of course. 



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4746 posts, RR: 43
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 18111 times:

Hajj period is 2 months of each year i.e. 1 month to JED and 1 month for pilgrims to return

Umrah period is for 8 months of the year

To purchase VLAs just to handle Hajj is foolish and instead GA would be better off purchasing 5 additional B77Ws and configuring them into an all Y class layout with 520 seats similar to what ANA and JAL do domestically in Japan. For the future, order the larger B779 which will give GA 18% more capacity i.e. 90 more seats which is quite enough.

For year round services, the only destination in GA's network warranting such an aircraft to be deployed is indeed JED and no where else. CGK-JED is a 9 hour 45 minute long flight so for a double daily service, GA would need a maximum of 3 aircraft and not 5.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10631 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 17972 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
To purchase VLAs just to handle Hajj is foolish and instead GA would be better off purchasing 5 additional B77Ws and configuring them into an all Y class layout with 520 seats similar to what ANA and JAL do domestically in Japan.

So to order the more comfortable plane and seat more at lower seat travel cost is foolish? They could also convert some of the 77W orders, an soon aging plane type in the eye of the imminent launch of a successor, to 748Is. I am sure Boeing would give them a good deal!


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6037 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 17913 times:

what is the range of a high density 520 seat 77W. I would hate to be flight attendant on that route vs config!


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 795 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 17839 times:

I would have thought the infrastructure of airports like JKT would be better suited to B748i operations than A380, also GA could trade in their remaining 744's to Boeing as part of the deal.
And possibly use the leaverage of a 748i purchase to reopen the SFO & LAX services again.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30532 posts, RR: 84
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 17805 times:
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Quoting yellowtail (Reply 9):
(W)hat is the range of a high density 520 seat 77W.

At MZFW the 777-300ER can fly around 5750nm, so more than that.  


User currently offlinechieft From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 353 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 17731 times:
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Well, if considered in high-density config, the A380 would be the choice:

605 pax in the B747-8i vs. 853 in the A380

A clear advantage, which should also be on the financial side...

The A380 is an ideal aircraft for hajj and umrah travel.



Aircraft are marginal costs with wings.
User currently offlineafterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 1209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 17594 times:

I don't think it's Garuda's own need to purchase the VLAs. It's the government's. The minister of religious affairs once said that Indonesia needs to have large aircraft of its own to carry the Hajj pilgrims instead of chartering from foreign airlines.

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12857 posts, RR: 100
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 17510 times:
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Garuda is on my short 'hit list' of new VLA operators. This should be a hard fought competition.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
There has been rumours of this before.

   But with the new runway at CDK cancelled... Garuda will have to expand with gauge where they can. Which won't be to many cities, but enough to justify a subfleet.

I'm not expecting either aircraft to be configured for



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4746 posts, RR: 43
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17397 times:

Quoting chieft (Reply 12):
The A380 is an ideal aircraft for hajj and umrah travel.

With regards to Umrah using a B744, GA dont even average 90% S/F currently on their JED route so how do you expect them to fill up an airplane with almost double the capacity?

In peak Umrah season which is 4 weeks of the year, yes they could fill a 853 seater but then again thats only 4 weeks out of 52.

Quoting na (Reply 8):
So to order the more comfortable plane and seat more at lower seat travel cost is foolish? They could also convert some of the 77W orders, an soon aging plane type in the eye of the imminent launch of a successor, to 748Is. I am sure Boeing would give them a good deal!

Yes it is foolish because it incurs un warranted additional costs introducing and maintaining a new fleet type just for 5 planes and that too 5 are not required as currently GA operate double daily JED-CGK flights using a dedicated B744 and B77W. I work in Network Planning and have managed Hajj operations for the past 2 years for a GCC carrier which uplifted Hajj and Umrah pax from CGK hence I know very well this market segment.

Remember one very important aspect...Hajj traffic is very directional i.e. going out full in one direction and flying in one direction with less than 35% S/F if not less hence it is better for GA to use a fuel efficient less denser aircraft like an all Y class B77W versus experimenting with a larger and more expensive B748 / A380 !

[Edited 2013-06-18 08:46:52]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10665 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17332 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
To purchase VLAs just to handle Hajj is foolish

It may be foolish but the government is involved so who cares?  



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3733 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17241 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 4):
Besides these Hajj flights, on which other routes does GA intend to use those A380's/748's? I assume those Hajj flights aren't yearround(?)

My question as well. There are pilgrims year round but the really busy period is the few weeks around Hajj. And these flights require high density aircrafts, which are of little use in other markets.

The idea of buying brand new and expensive aircrafts for that purpose only seems incredibly wasteful. Unless of course they have an operational plan for them for the rest of the year.

A fleet of good condition used 744s would suit the need at a much lesser cost. I heard on another thread that there are quite a lot of fairly new A346s in good nick that are to be quickly available, for peanuts... That would fit the bill too.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9708 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17175 times:

Quoting na (Reply 5):
They surely wont fly from Denpasar Quoting A388 (Reply 4):

Besides these Hajj flights, on which other routes does GA intend to use those A380's/748's? I assume those Hajj flights aren't yearround(?)

A388

Not just Hadj, there are pilgrims flying to Mekka etc all year round, Lionair is flying some with their two 744s. Remember that Indonesia is the most populous islamic country.

I know this too, but...

Quoting na (Reply 5):
But I am surprised this traffic justifies about 5 VLAs year round.

... this is what I mean  

A388


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10631 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 16950 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 15):
Yes it is foolish because it incurs un warranted additional costs introducing and maintaining a new fleet type just for 5 planes and that too 5 are not required as currently GA operate double daily JED-CGK flights using a dedicated B744 and B77W. I work in Network Planning and have managed Hajj operations for the past 2 years for a GCC carrier which uplifted Hajj and Umrah pax from CGK hence I know very well this market segment.

Remember one very important aspect...Hajj traffic is very directional i.e. going out full in one direction and flying in one direction with less than 35% S/F if not less hence it is better for GA to use a fuel efficient less denser aircraft like an all Y class B77W versus experimenting with a larger and more expensive B748 / A380 !

Then the 787 should be even better, dont you think, and the 777-9X you projected would also be too large.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 16):
It may be foolish but the government is involved so who cares?  

Maybe its the intention of the government to shovel far more pilgrims at far lower cost. Under that circumstance no one beats the A380.


User currently offlineAither From South Korea, joined Oct 2004, 858 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 16787 times:

Pilgrims from Indonesia have the right not to be treated like cattle. Yields are low but the ministry of religion may be looking at the right balance between profitability and comfort, and not just to maximize the profitability at all costs.


Never trust the obvious
User currently offlinesturmovik From India, joined May 2007, 509 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 16694 times:

Quoting Aither (Reply 20):

Pilgrims from Indonesia have the right not to be treated like cattle. Yields are low but the ministry of religion may be looking at the right balance between profitability and comfort, and not just to maximize the profitability at all costs.

  
Indeed. If one looks at it as a subsidized service provided by the government of the most populous Islamic nation in the world to its citizens, as opposed to looking at it as an airline route that needs to generate profit, it might make a lot more sense.



'What's it doing now?'
User currently offlinedeltalaw From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 16549 times:

Quoting Aither (Reply 20):
Pilgrims from Indonesia have the right not to be treated like cattle.

No, they really don't...everyone has the opportunity for more space, if they choose to pay for it. As far as I know...no country on earth provides a constitutional right to seat width or pitch.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30532 posts, RR: 84
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 16461 times:
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Quoting sturmovik (Reply 21):
If one looks at it as a subsidized service provided by the government of the most populous Islamic nation in the world to its citizens, as opposed to looking at it as an airline route that needs to generate profit, it might make a lot more sense.

But might that investment (whether it be a comfy 747-8 or a comfy A380-800) be better spent on a service that the government could provide to it's citizens 12 months a year instead of just 2?

If they have the traffic to support VLA operations year-round profitably, bully for them. But if they do not, then this sounds more like a "prestige" purchase that will lose money, but gain public relations points.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24789 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 16446 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
To purchase VLAs just to handle Hajj is foolish

  

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
For year round services, the only destination in GA's network warranting such an aircraft to be deployed is indeed JED

Indeed. Look at GA's current 744 utilization. In the recent past model has been used on short hops to places like SIN, while a bit further back to HKG. Neither are markets that truly need a 747. Essentially GA does not have much use for its current 744 fleet as is.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
nstead GA would be better off purchasing 5 additional B77Ws and configuring them into an all Y class layout

Yes more 77W would seem more practical. Depending on needs they can even reconfigure the subfleet depending on seasonal demand.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 10):
reopen the SFO & LAX services again.

Oh please no. Let GA stick to Skyteam codeshares.

Also I dont believe GA ever served SFO. It was LAX and HNL.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 asetiadi : if they have to really purchase a new plane, it would be better to have 747-800i since this plane can use every major airports in Indonesia. Airbus 38
26 sturmovik : Hey I'm not saying it's a rational thing to do, I was just trying to look at this from a different perspective. I wouldn't put it past my country's g
27 GARUDAROD : GARUDA never served SFO as a scheduled point. There may have been a few VIP charters, but not scheduled service.
28 Post contains images Azure : Indonesia is growing at a very fast pace, and air transport is growing even faster : - pax growth : 12/15% a year - 24 new airports will be built by 2
29 Post contains images KarelXWB : And they could go 11-abreast in Y on the main deck
30 motorhussy : I don't know much about Hadj pilgrims from Indonesia other than that, by all accounts, there are a significant number of them. What I do know is that
31 Post contains images mandala499 : Current Medan Polonia Airport? A380 ready? I'd like to see that as long as I don't have to deal with the mess! Polonia is cramped as hell with only 2
32 TheRedBaron : DING DING DING...we have a winner here..... Who cares what is better or if it makes sense if Gov. is involved, strange things happen . TRB
33 Post contains links and images Azure : Thanks for your interesting information. I was referring indeed to the new Kualanamu Airport in Medan which has been described as A380 ready by some
34 jupiter2 : Forget about either operating from DPS on Hajj charters, the vast majority of the population on Bali isn't Muslim.
35 Post contains links mandala499 : I guess this financial times article will be news for you: Infrastructure failings clip the wings of Indonesian airport Sorry, CEO Satar said it out
36 gemuser : What Indonesian airports, that CAN support the B744/B748i that CAN NOT support the A380 and why? Gemuser
37 behramjee : FYI, the top 10 medium to long haul international markets out of CGK in 2012 were as follows: JED - 620,000 ICN - 270,000 NRT - 255,000 TPE - 220,000
38 lollomz : I hope to see a new B748i order one day......
39 cheeken : If Indonesia could purchase A380s and turn them into firefighting planes that'll be REALLY useful! :P
40 Post contains links KarelXWB : Update: Garuda considering all economy-class Airbus 380, Boeing 747-8I. Story here: http://www.ausbt.com.au/garuda-consi...omy-class-airbus-380-boeing
41 Post contains images astuteman : In which case only 777's or the 3510 would be considered They don't need to.... 30" pitch would get you 850 seats just the same. A 570 tonne A380 nee
42 Fastphilly : Not to nitpick, but GA has never served SFO. If they ever did serve LAX, we must be going back to the 80's.
43 Post contains links astuteman : Late edit - Denpasar runway appears to be 9 842 ft long - i.e. adequate for an MTOW A380, but not any of the 747's at MTOW... http://www.baliairport.
44 TC957 : I recall seeing GA at LAX with their MD-11ERs, so it must have been late 90's. Sorry, didn't know they never served SFO.
45 jupiter2 : Again, forget about DPS in this discussion, Bali is dominated by Buddhist. Even so a single class 380 or 748i is hardly going to be at MTOW from any a
46 na : Buddhist? When I visited Bali it was clearly dominated by Hindu. According to wikipedia more than 90% are Hindu, less than 1% Buddhist! Agreed though
47 jupiter2 : Oops.......my bad !! Wrong religion.[Edited 2013-07-02 18:03:16]
48 GARUDAROD : GARUDA served LAX from 1986 until May of 1998 with the DC-10, B747 Combi and MD-11 To Mandala, I hear a lot of talk about GA returning to LAX, is the
49 ricknroll : The single class 77W would be more dense than an A380, but it would carry less people.
50 777way : I bet they will opt for A380.
51 behramjee : ANA's high density domestic B773As carry 514 in a 2 class configuration so all Y class on B773 would probably be max 550 which is more than enough fo
52 oldeuropean : An A380 can carry 853 pax. Appropriate for the most populous islamic country. They are also well trained on the A330 and a transition to the A380 is
53 777way : ^ And every 747 operator so far has opted for A380 as their new VLA barring three that opted for both, not a single one has opted solely for 748, BTW
54 Scipio : Air China and Arik Air did, thus far. The latter is not a former or current 747 operator, though. It was never firmed up and probably never will, all
55 Post contains links and images KarelXWB : Well, they still have their first assembly slot assigned (MSN 180). And that remains a strange order IMO They BTW already agreed pre-delivery payment
56 777way : I thought CA is an A380 customer too, forgot about Arik however they're in a different league as you mentioned.[Edited 2013-07-03 13:39:08]
57 KarelXWB : Nope, they aren't.
58 Scipio : In what sense?
59 Post contains images mffoda : I don't want to quote anyone's post here regarding which is the best Aircraft for the Hajj? But, I think that there is something that is being serious
60 art : I can see that the government wants to "support" Islamic pilgrimage by subsidising travel costs. I don't understand why Garuda needs to look at new V
61 Post contains images mandala499 : Hajj Ops for Indonesia is totally different kind of ops from Nigeria and Kabo. Surabaya gets given to Saudi Arabia for Hajj ops, Jakarta is joint Ind
62 AF185 : My feeling is that GA will go for the A380 eventually Their goal is to become a key player in S.E Asia, and their main targets and competitors are SQ,
63 AirbusA6 : Buying brand new A380s or 748is for Hajj purposes seems bizarre to me, when secondhand 744s and A346s will be available at very competitive prices, an
64 Post contains links KarelXWB : http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...between-a380-747-8-before-year-end
65 airzim : Flew GA from LAX twice. Most miserable flights in my life. Never ending and I was in J. LAX-HNL-DPS-CGK on the MD-11. With the DC-10s the routing was
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