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Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747  
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13228 posts, RR: 36
Posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 19609 times:

Garuda Indonesia is considering the purchase of the A380 or 747-8i in partnership with its government to help ferry religious pilgrims to Saudi Arabia.

> Garuda want three to five VLA's for the Hajj Trips
> Garuda is evaluating both A380 and 747-8i
> A purchase may come "very soon"
> First delivery in 2015

Story here:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...8-against-a380-for-hajj-trips.html


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4991 posts, RR: 41
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 19611 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):

Garuda Indonesia is considering the purchase of the A380 or 747-8i in partnership with its government to help ferry religious pilgrims to Saudi Arabia.

There has been rumours of this before. So now it seems to be getting more and more serious that Garuda will purchase up to 5 VLA's. Hope they will go for the A380 of course.  


User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12900 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 19508 times:
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Well, it's know that Airbus has a couple of slots in 2015. Maybe that's why the LH deal for two more hasn't been signed yet?   

Could Boeing deliver 748is to a new customer in 2015?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13228 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 19426 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 2):
Could Boeing deliver 748is to a new customer in 2015?

Yes, they can. There are many open delivery slots for the 747 in 2015.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10010 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 19221 times:

Besides these Hajj flights, on which other routes does GA intend to use those A380's/748's? I assume those Hajj flights aren't yearround(?)

A388


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10818 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 19060 times:

They surely wont fly from Denpasar 
Quoting A388 (Reply 4):

Besides these Hajj flights, on which other routes does GA intend to use those A380's/748's? I assume those Hajj flights aren't yearround(?)

A388

Not just Hadj, there are pilgrims flying to Mekka etc all year round, Lionair is flying some with their two 744s. Remember that Indonesia is the most populous islamic country.
But I am surprised this traffic justifies about 5 VLAs year round.


User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 18928 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
Hope they will go for the A380 of course.    

And I hope they will go for the 748i of course. 



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4852 posts, RR: 44
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18741 times:

Hajj period is 2 months of each year i.e. 1 month to JED and 1 month for pilgrims to return

Umrah period is for 8 months of the year

To purchase VLAs just to handle Hajj is foolish and instead GA would be better off purchasing 5 additional B77Ws and configuring them into an all Y class layout with 520 seats similar to what ANA and JAL do domestically in Japan. For the future, order the larger B779 which will give GA 18% more capacity i.e. 90 more seats which is quite enough.

For year round services, the only destination in GA's network warranting such an aircraft to be deployed is indeed JED and no where else. CGK-JED is a 9 hour 45 minute long flight so for a double daily service, GA would need a maximum of 3 aircraft and not 5.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10818 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18602 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
To purchase VLAs just to handle Hajj is foolish and instead GA would be better off purchasing 5 additional B77Ws and configuring them into an all Y class layout with 520 seats similar to what ANA and JAL do domestically in Japan.

So to order the more comfortable plane and seat more at lower seat travel cost is foolish? They could also convert some of the 77W orders, an soon aging plane type in the eye of the imminent launch of a successor, to 748Is. I am sure Boeing would give them a good deal!


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6359 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18543 times:

what is the range of a high density 520 seat 77W. I would hate to be flight attendant on that route vs config!


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently onlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 1056 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18469 times:

I would have thought the infrastructure of airports like JKT would be better suited to B748i operations than A380, also GA could trade in their remaining 744's to Boeing as part of the deal.
And possibly use the leaverage of a 748i purchase to reopen the SFO & LAX services again.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31440 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18435 times:
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Quoting yellowtail (Reply 9):
(W)hat is the range of a high density 520 seat 77W.

At MZFW the 777-300ER can fly around 5750nm, so more than that.  


User currently offlinechieft From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18361 times:
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Well, if considered in high-density config, the A380 would be the choice:

605 pax in the B747-8i vs. 853 in the A380

A clear advantage, which should also be on the financial side...

The A380 is an ideal aircraft for hajj and umrah travel.



Aircraft are marginal costs with wings.
User currently offlineafterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 1221 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18224 times:

I don't think it's Garuda's own need to purchase the VLAs. It's the government's. The minister of religious affairs once said that Indonesia needs to have large aircraft of its own to carry the Hajj pilgrims instead of chartering from foreign airlines.

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13552 posts, RR: 100
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18140 times:
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Garuda is on my short 'hit list' of new VLA operators. This should be a hard fought competition.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
There has been rumours of this before.

   But with the new runway at CDK cancelled... Garuda will have to expand with gauge where they can. Which won't be to many cities, but enough to justify a subfleet.

I'm not expecting either aircraft to be configured for



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4852 posts, RR: 44
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 18027 times:

Quoting chieft (Reply 12):
The A380 is an ideal aircraft for hajj and umrah travel.

With regards to Umrah using a B744, GA dont even average 90% S/F currently on their JED route so how do you expect them to fill up an airplane with almost double the capacity?

In peak Umrah season which is 4 weeks of the year, yes they could fill a 853 seater but then again thats only 4 weeks out of 52.

Quoting na (Reply 8):
So to order the more comfortable plane and seat more at lower seat travel cost is foolish? They could also convert some of the 77W orders, an soon aging plane type in the eye of the imminent launch of a successor, to 748Is. I am sure Boeing would give them a good deal!

Yes it is foolish because it incurs un warranted additional costs introducing and maintaining a new fleet type just for 5 planes and that too 5 are not required as currently GA operate double daily JED-CGK flights using a dedicated B744 and B77W. I work in Network Planning and have managed Hajj operations for the past 2 years for a GCC carrier which uplifted Hajj and Umrah pax from CGK hence I know very well this market segment.

Remember one very important aspect...Hajj traffic is very directional i.e. going out full in one direction and flying in one direction with less than 35% S/F if not less hence it is better for GA to use a fuel efficient less denser aircraft like an all Y class B77W versus experimenting with a larger and more expensive B748 / A380 !

[Edited 2013-06-18 08:46:52]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13228 posts, RR: 36
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17962 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
To purchase VLAs just to handle Hajj is foolish

It may be foolish but the government is involved so who cares?  



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3849 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17871 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 4):
Besides these Hajj flights, on which other routes does GA intend to use those A380's/748's? I assume those Hajj flights aren't yearround(?)

My question as well. There are pilgrims year round but the really busy period is the few weeks around Hajj. And these flights require high density aircrafts, which are of little use in other markets.

The idea of buying brand new and expensive aircrafts for that purpose only seems incredibly wasteful. Unless of course they have an operational plan for them for the rest of the year.

A fleet of good condition used 744s would suit the need at a much lesser cost. I heard on another thread that there are quite a lot of fairly new A346s in good nick that are to be quickly available, for peanuts... That would fit the bill too.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10010 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17805 times:

Quoting na (Reply 5):
They surely wont fly from Denpasar Quoting A388 (Reply 4):

Besides these Hajj flights, on which other routes does GA intend to use those A380's/748's? I assume those Hajj flights aren't yearround(?)

A388

Not just Hadj, there are pilgrims flying to Mekka etc all year round, Lionair is flying some with their two 744s. Remember that Indonesia is the most populous islamic country.

I know this too, but...

Quoting na (Reply 5):
But I am surprised this traffic justifies about 5 VLAs year round.

... this is what I mean  

A388


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10818 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 17580 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 15):
Yes it is foolish because it incurs un warranted additional costs introducing and maintaining a new fleet type just for 5 planes and that too 5 are not required as currently GA operate double daily JED-CGK flights using a dedicated B744 and B77W. I work in Network Planning and have managed Hajj operations for the past 2 years for a GCC carrier which uplifted Hajj and Umrah pax from CGK hence I know very well this market segment.

Remember one very important aspect...Hajj traffic is very directional i.e. going out full in one direction and flying in one direction with less than 35% S/F if not less hence it is better for GA to use a fuel efficient less denser aircraft like an all Y class B77W versus experimenting with a larger and more expensive B748 / A380 !

Then the 787 should be even better, dont you think, and the 777-9X you projected would also be too large.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 16):
It may be foolish but the government is involved so who cares?  

Maybe its the intention of the government to shovel far more pilgrims at far lower cost. Under that circumstance no one beats the A380.


User currently offlineAither From South Korea, joined Oct 2004, 860 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 17417 times:

Pilgrims from Indonesia have the right not to be treated like cattle. Yields are low but the ministry of religion may be looking at the right balance between profitability and comfort, and not just to maximize the profitability at all costs.


Never trust the obvious
User currently offlinesturmovik From India, joined May 2007, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 17324 times:

Quoting Aither (Reply 20):

Pilgrims from Indonesia have the right not to be treated like cattle. Yields are low but the ministry of religion may be looking at the right balance between profitability and comfort, and not just to maximize the profitability at all costs.

  
Indeed. If one looks at it as a subsidized service provided by the government of the most populous Islamic nation in the world to its citizens, as opposed to looking at it as an airline route that needs to generate profit, it might make a lot more sense.



'What's it doing now?'
User currently offlinedeltalaw From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 17179 times:

Quoting Aither (Reply 20):
Pilgrims from Indonesia have the right not to be treated like cattle.

No, they really don't...everyone has the opportunity for more space, if they choose to pay for it. As far as I know...no country on earth provides a constitutional right to seat width or pitch.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31440 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 17091 times:
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Quoting sturmovik (Reply 21):
If one looks at it as a subsidized service provided by the government of the most populous Islamic nation in the world to its citizens, as opposed to looking at it as an airline route that needs to generate profit, it might make a lot more sense.

But might that investment (whether it be a comfy 747-8 or a comfy A380-800) be better spent on a service that the government could provide to it's citizens 12 months a year instead of just 2?

If they have the traffic to support VLA operations year-round profitably, bully for them. But if they do not, then this sounds more like a "prestige" purchase that will lose money, but gain public relations points.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26175 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 17076 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
To purchase VLAs just to handle Hajj is foolish

  

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
For year round services, the only destination in GA's network warranting such an aircraft to be deployed is indeed JED

Indeed. Look at GA's current 744 utilization. In the recent past model has been used on short hops to places like SIN, while a bit further back to HKG. Neither are markets that truly need a 747. Essentially GA does not have much use for its current 744 fleet as is.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
nstead GA would be better off purchasing 5 additional B77Ws and configuring them into an all Y class layout

Yes more 77W would seem more practical. Depending on needs they can even reconfigure the subfleet depending on seasonal demand.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 10):
reopen the SFO & LAX services again.

Oh please no. Let GA stick to Skyteam codeshares.

Also I dont believe GA ever served SFO. It was LAX and HNL.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineasetiadi From Indonesia, joined May 2013, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 17753 times:
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if they have to really purchase a new plane, it would be better to have 747-800i since this plane can use every major airports in Indonesia. Airbus 380 will not work in Indonesia unless they do some major upgrade on runway length, airport terminals, etc...

User currently offlinesturmovik From India, joined May 2007, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 17659 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
But might that investment (whether it be a comfy 747-8 or a comfy A380-800) be better spent on a service that the government could provide to it's citizens 12 months a year instead of just 2?

Hey I'm not saying it's a rational thing to do, I was just trying to look at this from a different perspective. I wouldn't put it past my country's government to do something like this, and since Indonesia is more or less in the same neck of the woods, I assumed there's a possibility that it might not be too different over there either.



'What's it doing now?'
User currently offlineGARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1525 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 17867 times:

Quoting TC957 (Reply 10):
And possibly use the leaverage of a 748i purchase to reopen the SFO & LAX services again.

GARUDA never served SFO as a scheduled point. There may have been a few VIP charters, but not scheduled
service.



Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 632 posts, RR: 16
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 17668 times:

Indonesia is growing at a very fast pace, and air transport is growing even faster :
- pax growth : 12/15% a year
- 24 new airports will be built by 2015 !
- Even Medan is now A380 ready.
I would not be surprised either if the country flag carrier, ie. GA, orders a couple of VLAs, for the Hajj first but also for some regional ops... When it is a question of pride, prestige, and overall international recognition, money or financial rationals are no major issues in this part of the world (and this is no offense to this country).

Quoting na (Reply 19):
Maybe its the intention of the government to shovel far more pilgrims at far lower cost. Under that circumstance no one beats the A380.

  

Quoting Aither (Reply 20):
Yields are low but the ministry of religion may be looking at the right balance between profitability and comfort, and not just to maximize the profitability at all costs.

  

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
If they have the traffic to support VLA operations year-round profitably, bully for them. But if they do not, then this sounds more like a "prestige" purchase that will lose money, but gain public relations points.

  

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 25):
Airbus 380 will not work in Indonesia unless they do some major upgrade on runway length, airport terminals

Exactly what they have been doing in DPS, Medan, etc...



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13228 posts, RR: 36
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 17283 times:

Quoting na (Reply 19):
Maybe its the intention of the government to shovel far more pilgrims at far lower cost. Under that circumstance no one beats the A380.

And they could go 11-abreast in Y on the main deck   



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3345 posts, RR: 9
Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 16803 times:

I don't know much about Hadj pilgrims from Indonesia other than that, by all accounts, there are a significant number of them.

What I do know is that the Indonesian economy is booming against the global trend (I'll not get into environmental and humanitarian cost here), and the country's affluent middle-class is growing significantly.

Now presumably Hadj pilgrims come from all social and financial classes and not all are intent on travelling the traditional pilgrim class, camel through the eye of a needle etc.

My question is, does GA have the ability to offer a Haj configured craft with Y+ or even J, and if so, is it not possible to use on other routes at less intense pilgrimage periods of the year? And would this make a VLA more viable?



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6972 posts, RR: 76
Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 16806 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 28):
- Even Medan is now A380 ready.

Current Medan Polonia Airport? A380 ready? I'd like to see that as long as I don't have to deal with the mess! Polonia is cramped as hell with only 2 of its stands barely capable of taking 747s and the rest are for narrobodies.

If you mean the new Kualanamu Airport that's about to open, I wouldn't count on it being A380 ready just yet. The highway going to and from that airport hasn't been built, the train can only take 20% of the projected traffic between the airport and the city, and the only access is err... a road that is not suitable as an airport access with "illegal towns" along the way.

Quoting Azure (Reply 28):
Exactly what they have been doing in DPS, Medan, etc...

DPS cannot get a runway length extension for environmental reasons, its revamp will struggle to meet the traffic by the time it's completed.

Quoting Azure (Reply 28):
money or financial rationals are no major issues in this part of the world (and this is no offense to this country).

Bad news for you sir... Garuda is a publicly listed company and its shares aren't doing very well either. The financial community isn't convinced of the VLA case at the moment and the aviation community has an endless list of complaints on infrastructure, even the recently built / revamped airports. Even our DGCA aren't keen on the Ministry of Religions Affairs getting A380s for Hajj (and this is a government ministry rumored to be the most corrupt in the government... heck, even government issued Qur'an contracts is now under scrutiny by the Anti Corruption Commission and one case is already in the corruption court).

Garuda is looking for VLAs, but again, the CEO also complains about infrastructure.

Quoting na (Reply 5):
Lionair is flying some with their two 744s.

Lionair's 744s are usually found sitting at the airport. The 744 fleet is the lowest utility in Lion Air, so low that they no longer have pilots who are currently only flying the 744 (ie: they spend most if not all of their time on the NGs). The 744s have ended up flying charters to anywhere but JED.

Bear in mind also that Batavia took the 330s for JED... They flew Umrah charters to JED more often than Lion Air's 744s, and even that, lost money. In fact, it's one of the major factors that killed Batavia.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 15):
Remember one very important aspect...Hajj traffic is very directional i.e. going out full in one direction and flying in one direction with less than 35% S/F if not less hence it is better for GA to use a fuel efficient less denser aircraft like an all Y class B77W versus experimenting with a larger and more expensive B748 / A380 !

This is what makes Hajj flights expensive. 100% + 35% S/F for a return trip is valid only for regular flights. For the Hajj charters is 100% + 0% SF for a return trip. This makes the Hajj fares very high, well, you are effectively paying for 2x return trips. The folly for this whole Hajj VLA issue is the argument that "Garuda is making heaps of money out of Hajj by charging 2x the normal fares"... without looking at the fact that the plane has to make 2 return trips for 1 plane load.

Garuda is playing along solely because Hajj period will soon move to northern summer holiday season, so those hajj leases will become expensive over the next years, so if the government wants to give them VLAs for that, "and use it for Garuda's needs at other times" it'll play along.

But if the VLA from the Ministry of Religious Affairs is going to have a crappy contract, well... let's put it this way... Merpati isn't happy with the MA-60s the government dumped on them.   



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2331 posts, RR: 10
Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 16106 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 16):
It may be foolish but the government is involved so who cares?  

DING DING DING...we have a winner here..... Who cares what is better or if it makes sense if Gov. is involved, strange things happen .

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 632 posts, RR: 16
Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 15891 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 31):

Thanks for your interesting information.
I was referring indeed to the new Kualanamu Airport in Medan which has been described as A380 ready by some media here, with no reference to the infrastructure troubles you are mentioning. But I believe these troubles can be solved, isn't it a question of time ?
As for DPS, I am aware the runway is too short for a 744 MTOW (and therefore an A380 MTOW) but would a VLA need to have its tanks full of fuel for the regional ops I was mentioning ? I do not believe so.
Garuda now... I am a bit confused here. The Financial Times, which I consider to be a reliable source, mentions it is still state-owned ( http://markets.ft.com/research/Marke...sheets/Business-profile?s=GIAA:JKT ). It is publicly listed indeed but I believe the Indonesian State is still a shareholder, which would make my point valid. If not, it would not be bad news for me and you should not be sorry for that  
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 31):
Garuda is looking for VLAs, but again, the CEO also complains about infrastructure.

Again, the optimist would be inclined to believe that these infrastructure concerns might be partly solved by the time GA receives its VLAs if it was to order them.



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlinejupiter2 From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 915 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 13300 times:

Forget about either operating from DPS on Hajj charters, the vast majority of the population on Bali isn't Muslim.

User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6972 posts, RR: 76
Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 12866 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 33):
I was referring indeed to the new Kualanamu Airport in Medan which has been described as A380 ready by some media here, with no reference to the infrastructure troubles you are mentioning. But I believe these troubles can be solved, isn't it a question of time ?

I guess this financial times article will be news for you:
Infrastructure failings clip the wings of Indonesian airport

Sorry, CEO Satar said it out loud in several conferences that infrastructure is the major growth cap. What he says in major airshows are, sorry, only for show. He has also said it that despite the growth, the VLAs are only being looked at with no decision soon as he is not convinced the infrastructure can catch up with the current fleet growth. Garuda's own need for VLA is more for the 2020-2025 period... It is separate from the Ministry of Religious Affairs proposal for Hajj VLAs. The "we may need it by 2015" is that one, not Garuda's own requirements.

Satar is playing along to not step on anyone in the government or the parties as he is set to step down in september and is now looking at taking on a ministerial post after the next election.

Quoting Azure (Reply 33):
As for DPS

For DPS, I was mentioning it to extend the infrastructure deficit the country has. It will be behind traffic by the time the current revamp is finished. Which is the same with SUB (Terminal 2, built out of the ashes of old terminal on the southern side). Kualanamu is already behind capacity demand. The list goes on and on and on and on.

And yeah, anyone with an idea of having Hajj flights out of DPS is... grossly misunderstanding the island's demographics.

Quoting Azure (Reply 33):
It is publicly listed indeed but I believe the Indonesian State is still a shareholder, which would make my point valid. If not, it would not be bad news for me and you should not be sorry for that

Yes, it is still just a bit over 69% government owned, with creditors, employees, and individuals making the rest. (the fund managers have largely sold their stakes off). With the shares overpriced at the IPO (which was in the eyes of many, really a fiasco... they were asking for IDR1000 but the fair value was IDR650 a share). The whole IPO thing was a money sucking debacle. And it's now at IDR500 a share (thanks to the VLA news).



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5828 posts, RR: 6
Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12107 times:

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 25):
if they have to really purchase a new plane, it would be better to have 747-800i since this plane can use every major airports in Indonesia. Airbus 380 will not work in Indonesia unless they do some major upgrade on runway length,

What Indonesian airports, that CAN support the B744/B748i that CAN NOT support the A380 and why?

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4852 posts, RR: 44
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11951 times:

FYI, the top 10 medium to long haul international markets out of CGK in 2012 were as follows:

JED - 620,000
ICN - 270,000
NRT - 255,000
TPE - 220,000
RUH - 160,000
PVG - 150,000
DXB - 140,000
SYD - 130,000
PEK - 130,000
AMS - 110,000


User currently offlinelollomz From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9638 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I hope to see a new B748i order one day......

User currently offlinecheeken From Singapore, joined Feb 2010, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9607 times:

If Indonesia could purchase A380s and turn them into firefighting planes that'll be REALLY useful! :P

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13228 posts, RR: 36
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8863 times:

Update: Garuda considering all economy-class Airbus 380, Boeing 747-8I.

Story here:
http://www.ausbt.com.au/garuda-consi...omy-class-airbus-380-boeing-747-8i



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10253 posts, RR: 97
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8703 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting behramjee (Reply 15):
With regards to Umrah using a B744, GA dont even average 90% S/F currently on their JED route so how do you expect them to fill up an airplane with almost double the capacity?

In which case only 777's or the 3510 would be considered

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 29):
And they could go 11-abreast in Y on the main deck

They don't need to.... 30" pitch would get you 850 seats just the same.

Quoting Azure (Reply 33):
As for DPS, I am aware the runway is too short for a 744 MTOW (and therefore an A380 MTOW) but would a VLA need to have its tanks full of fuel for the regional ops I was mentioning ? I do not believe so.

A 570 tonne A380 needs 9 200 ft.
A 450 tonne 748i needs 10 200ft,
And a 400 tonne 744 needs 10 500ft.
All at sea level ISA conditions according to their respective current ACAPS

DPS runway may be too short for any of them. But a runway being too short for a 744 at MTOW doesn't necessarily mean its too short for an A380 at MTOW - the latter needs 1 300 ft less runway  

Rgds


User currently offlineFastphilly From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8457 times:

Quoting TC957 (Reply 10):
748i purchase to reopen the SFO & LAX services again

Not to nitpick, but GA has never served SFO. If they ever did serve LAX, we must be going back to the 80's.


User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10253 posts, RR: 97
Reply 43, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8219 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting astuteman (Reply 41):
Quoting Azure (Reply 33):As for DPS, I am aware the runway is too short for a 744 MTOW (and therefore an A380 MTOW) but would a VLA need to have its tanks full of fuel for the regional ops I was mentioning ? I do not believe so.
A 570 tonne A380 needs 9 200 ft.

Late edit - Denpasar runway appears to be 9 842 ft long - i.e. adequate for an MTOW A380, but not any of the 747's at MTOW...

http://www.baliairport.com/bali-airport-quick-facts

Rgds


User currently onlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 1056 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8135 times:

I recall seeing GA at LAX with their MD-11ERs, so it must have been late 90's.
Sorry, didn't know they never served SFO.


User currently offlinejupiter2 From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 915 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8034 times:

Again, forget about DPS in this discussion, Bali is dominated by Buddhist. Even so a single class 380 or 748i is hardly going to be at MTOW from any airport in Indonesia to Saudi Arabia, so runway length discussions are a mute point.

Having said that, surely the 748i would be the more logical choice, simply for the fact that for the other 8 months of the year it will be easier to fill. Even though both aircraft really are overkill, but then again with government subsidies, what will GA care !


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10818 posts, RR: 9
Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7707 times:

Quoting astuteman (Reply 43):
Late edit - Denpasar runway appears to be 9 842 ft long - i.e. adequate for an MTOW A380, but not any of the 747's at MTOW...
Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 45):
Again, forget about DPS in this discussion, Bali is dominated by Buddhist.

Buddhist? When I visited Bali it was clearly dominated by Hindu. According to wikipedia more than 90% are Hindu, less than 1% Buddhist!

Agreed though that Denpasar is totally unimportant when it comes to Hadj travel.


User currently offlinejupiter2 From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 915 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7574 times:

Oops.......my bad !!

Wrong religion.

[Edited 2013-07-02 18:03:16]

User currently offlineGARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1525 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7562 times:

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 42):
Not to nitpick, but GA has never served SFO. If they ever did serve LAX, we must be going back to the 80's.

GARUDA served LAX from 1986 until May of 1998 with the DC-10, B747 Combi and MD-11

To Mandala,

I hear a lot of talk about GA returning to LAX, is there anything official going in this regards?
The B777W would seem to be the ideal aircraft for this route.



Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
User currently offlinericknroll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 900 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7330 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 15):
Remember one very important aspect...Hajj traffic is very directional i.e. going out full in one direction and flying in one direction with less than 35% S/F if not less hence it is better for GA to use a fuel efficient less denser aircraft like an all Y class B77W versus experimenting with a larger and more expensive B748 / A380 !

The single class 77W would be more dense than an A380, but it would carry less people.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6113 posts, RR: 4
Reply 50, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6819 times:

Quoting lollomz (Reply 38):

I bet they will opt for A380.


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4852 posts, RR: 44
Reply 51, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6685 times:

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 49):
The single class 77W would be more dense than an A380, but it would carry less people.

ANA's high density domestic B773As carry 514 in a 2 class configuration so all Y class on B773 would probably be max 550 which is more than enough for GA.

Quoting 777way (Reply 50):
I bet they will opt for A380.

well maybe this is the "niche deal" that Airbus's Sales Director Mr John Leahy was talking about for many months!

But GA's pilots are well trained on the B744 so progressing into the B748 would probably much easier for both them and the airline to handle versus introducing a whole new fleet type into the mix just to service one main market segment in particular. However, I still stick with my original suggestion of getting more B77Ws and using them in a high density configuration instead of ordering B748/A380 !

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 40):
Story here:
http://www.ausbt.com.au/garuda-consi...47-8i

GA considering FCO, MXP, FRA and MUC? All 4 wont make money plus by virtue of being in Sky Team, FCO would make the most sense as AZ would code share with GA on this service + will provide value able onward feeder service into Italy and Europe.


User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6727 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 51):
ANA's high density domestic B773As carry 514 in a 2 class configuration so all Y class on B773 would probably be max 550 which is more than enough for GA.

An A380 can carry 853 pax. Appropriate for the most populous islamic country.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 51):
But GA's pilots are well trained on the B744 so progressing into the B748 would probably much easier for both them and the airline to handle versus introducing a whole new fleet type into the mix just to service one main market segment in particular.

They are also well trained on the A330 and a transition to the A380 is very easy.



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6113 posts, RR: 4
Reply 53, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6382 times:

^ And every 747 operator so far has opted for A380 as their new VLA barring three that opted for both, not a single one has opted solely for 748, BTW what happened to the fifteen 748 MoU by Hong Kong Airlines at some airshow ?

User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 926 posts, RR: 10
Reply 54, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6317 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 53):
^ And every 747 operator so far has opted for A380 as their new VLA barring three that opted for both, not a single one has opted solely for 748,

Air China and Arik Air did, thus far. The latter is not a former or current 747 operator, though.

Quoting 777way (Reply 53):
BTW what happened to the fifteen 748 MoU by Hong Kong Airlines at some airshow ?

It was never firmed up and probably never will, allegedly due to a change in strategy. Their A380 order was firmed up but is seen as in doubt.

Similar scenario with Transaero: it announced deals for both the 748 and the A380 in late-2011, but only the latter deal was firmed up.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13228 posts, RR: 36
Reply 55, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6277 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 54):
It was never firmed up and probably never will, allegedly due to a change in strategy. Their A380 order was firmed up but is seen as in doubt.

Well, they still have their first assembly slot assigned (MSN 180).

Quoting Scipio (Reply 54):
Similar scenario with Transaero: it announced deals for both the 748 and the A380 in late-2011, but only the latter deal was firmed up.

And that remains a strange order IMO   They BTW already agreed pre-delivery payments for their first 2 A380s.

http://www.airfinancejournal.com/Art...Transaero-finalises-A380-PDPs.html

[Edited 2013-07-03 13:36:56]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6113 posts, RR: 4
Reply 56, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6282 times:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 54):
Air China and Arik Air did, thus far. The latter is not a former or current 747 operator, though.

I thought CA is an A380 customer too, forgot about Arik however they're in a different league as you mentioned.

[Edited 2013-07-03 13:39:08]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13228 posts, RR: 36
Reply 57, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6267 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 56):
I thought CA is an A380 customer too

Nope, they aren't.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineScipio From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 926 posts, RR: 10
Reply 58, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6076 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 55):
And that remains a strange order IMO  

In what sense?


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6019 times:

I don't want to quote anyone's post here regarding which is the best Aircraft for the Hajj?

But, I think that there is something that is being seriously overlooked regarding the Hajj. For most Hajj travelers this is a once in a lifetime event. And while they don't have necessarily have allot of money, they sometimes save for years for this pilgrimage. And they tend to purchase allot of stuff from the holy land, that is not readily available in their own countries. Getting there is totally different then the return home, as far as baggage/cargo is concerned.

I remember how it was handled by another airline (KABO Air) from the predominantly Muslim country of Nigeria. It was more then a dozen years ago as I remember? Anyhow, they purchased a few Ex-BA 742's that had been sitting in the desert (MZJ) as I recall? They purchased them Cheap and C Checked them for 18 months so that they could cover 2 Hajj periods. The A/C purchase price plus C Check plus all the expenses would be covered in the first Hajj year and the 2nd year would be almost entirely profit!

That being said, there was so much cargo on the return flights that they had to dedicate whole flights to cargo only. I wish that I had keep some of the pictures (it was crazy)... They had baggage/cargo stacked to the top of the seat backs (and higher) on the main deck!

Now, before anyone blows a gasket? Remember that they were flying to Nigeria.  



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 60, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5927 times:

Quoting afterburner (Reply 13):
I don't think it's Garuda's own need to purchase the VLAs. It's the government's. The minister of religious affairs once said that Indonesia needs to have large aircraft of its own to carry the Hajj pilgrims instead of chartering from foreign airlines.
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 16):
Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
To purchase VLAs just to handle Hajj is foolish

It may be foolish but the government is involved so who cares?

I can see that the government wants to "support" Islamic pilgrimage by subsidising travel costs. I don't understand why Garuda needs to look at new VLA's unless the demand for seats is already there or will rise should the government provide generous funding for travel to Saudi Arabia.

Others have said that no other routes could support a VLA. Could it be that the Indonesian govt is seeking kudos from other countries where Islam is effectively the state religion (and from their own citizens)? Brand new 748i or A380 aircraft would do that better than older 744/other aircraft.


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6972 posts, RR: 76
Reply 61, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5709 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 59):
I remember how it was handled by another airline (KABO Air) from the predominantly Muslim country of Nigeria.

Hajj Ops for Indonesia is totally different kind of ops from Nigeria and Kabo.
Surabaya gets given to Saudi Arabia for Hajj ops, Jakarta is joint Indonesia & Saudi Arabia, and the other embarkation points are Indonesian ops. Saudi Arabia's Hajj ops is, operated by SV and includes it's ACMI charters too.
The Indonesian ops are bidded by Indonesian airlines for the main feed to Jeddah and Medina, and also for the local feed to the embarkation point. Bali is a designated feed point, and feeds Balinese muslims (mainly non-Balinese working in Bali) to SUB and CGK. Designated embarkation points are: BTJ, MES, PDG, PLM, CGK, SOC, SUB, BDJ, BPN, UPG. BTH is a transit/hopping point for SV's SUB ops, and GA ops east of it which is handled by Aviatrans, the GA handled ops itself transits through MES and sometimes PDG. The split between Aviatrans and Garuda for the GA Hajj ops depends on the preferred handler for the ACMI aircraft... eg, Transat, Monarch, Iberworld, Thomson and TUi prefers Aviatrans, Air Atlanta Icelandic, China Southern, etc, prefer Garuda.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 59):
And they tend to purchase allot of stuff from the holy land, that is not readily available in their own countries.

And a lot of those stuff come from... China and Indonesia...   
Even the holy Zamzam water is rationed per pax now for Indonesian Hajj ops... (and the departing period for Hajj, the empty legs carry zamzam water back to Indonesia for later distribution in Indonesia according to the ration).

And no, we don't have pilgrims disembarking the aircraft using an rope unlike Kabo and the likes has been alleged to have done.

Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 48):
To Mandala,

I hear a lot of talk about GA returning to LAX, is there anything official going in this regards?
The B777W would seem to be the ideal aircraft for this route.

Europe and LAX was the main point why GA got the 77W. However, lately it appears that while EU's ban exemption for the late Batavia Air made the EU lost its credibility, Indonesian DGCA discussions with FAA on lifting the country's category status to back to Category I seems to have hit a stumbling block, and since the beginning of this year, the talk around the country has been "scrap LA, let's go back to focus on Europe"... and GA's plans from AMS & FRA, suddenly has LGW appearing and LAX disappearing from its plans at the same time.



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5632 times:

My feeling is that GA will go for the A380 eventually

Their goal is to become a key player in S.E Asia, and their main targets and competitors are SQ, MH, TG and the likes.
Not to undermine the B748 which is a great plane, but the A380 has gained an amazing attraction and awareness from all travelers (not only business travelers), and is the ideal plane for a growing airline like GA; all economic and route profitability issues aside.


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2038 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5544 times:

Buying brand new A380s or 748is for Hajj purposes seems bizarre to me, when secondhand 744s and A346s will be available at very competitive prices, and the low utlisation makes fuel costs less significant.

However, if they want a national symbol for their airline and country, then it has to be the A380. Buying the "second largest" plane in the world just doesn't do it...



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13228 posts, RR: 36
Reply 64, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4861 times:

Quote:
Garuda is looking at ‘convertible’ versions of the Airbus A380 and Boeing 747-8I which could be transformed into all-economy aircraft during off-peak travel seasons. All business class seats would be temporarily removed and replaced with economy seats.

http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...between-a380-747-8-before-year-end



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineairzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 65, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4448 times:

Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 48):
GARUDA served LAX from 1986 until May of 1998 with the DC-10, B747 Combi and MD-11

Flew GA from LAX twice. Most miserable flights in my life. Never ending and I was in J. LAX-HNL-DPS-CGK on the MD-11. With the DC-10s the routing was LAX-HNL-BIK-DPS-CGK.


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