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Turkish Airlines Plans Americas Expansion In 2014  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25719 posts, RR: 50
Posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11427 times:

Turkish Airlines CEO is out with details regarding the airlines plans to expand in the Americas.

First he says the carrier plans to launch services to Bogota, Caracas, Havana, and Mexico City in June or July 2014.

The new markets would be initially served 4x weekly on IST-CCS-BOG and IST-HAV-MEX routings.
The altitude at both Bogota and Mexico City makes non-stop link to Istanbul impractical.

As part of the expansion in the region, TK also says it seeks to enter into partnership with Avianca and Avianca Brazil which would benefit Star alliance connectivity.

Turning North, the CEO says the carrier would like to add US service points of Atlanta, Boston and San Francisco as well with some commencing for summer 2014 also.
For Canada carrier continues to seeks access to a second service point of Montreal, but such rights are currently not available under the bilateral.

Much of this growth will be made possible thanks to the arrival of additional 77W fleet commencing in 2014, and a few more A330s arriving this winter.

Story:
http://goo.gl/NdHf6

=


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8419 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10999 times:
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What does Turkish hope to achieve by flying to Havana, not even all the major European airlines fly to Cuba. Surely there has to be a better stop on an Istanbul to Mexico City route. THY should fly nonstop to MEX & stop Santo Domingo on the way home.

User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2207 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10652 times:

I find this quote interesting:

Turkish Airlines CEO Temel Kotil recently told CAPA that its Latin America passengers accept longer “detour routes” than in other markets. He says backtracking by two hours is common for passengers coming from Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires with connections to the Ukraine, Russia and even some parts of Italy particularly popular. He expects Turkish’s new Latin American destinations to have similar success in drawing a wide swath of connecting passengers.

Is it quite possibly bc TK offers dirt cheap fares connecting over IST? I was looking up sample r/ts in September/October from ORD to MAD and TK by far was the lowest.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27100 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10553 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
What does Turkish hope to achieve by flying to Havana, not even all the major European airlines fly to Cuba

HAV is an obvious choice and Im sure it would do very well. They will capture a whole tourism market within a 2.5 hour flying radius of IST. Cuba is a very popular destination. It will be interesting to see how it effects AF.


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2654 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10533 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
What does Turkish hope to achieve by flying to Havana, not even all the major European airlines fly to Cuba. Surely there has to be a better stop on an Istanbul to Mexico City route. THY should fly nonstop to MEX & stop Santo Domingo on the way home.

There could be some HAV traffic, however if HAV doesn't work for TK IST-MEX-CUN-IST may be an interesting option.
Even with TK and CM in the same alliance, IMHO, IST-MEX-PTY-IST not recommended at all.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7591 posts, RR: 42
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10314 times:

Well, interesting developments; thanks a lot for posting. The CAPA article is quite interesting.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
IST-HAV-MEX routings

If fifth freedom rights can be secured, this would be great! I am sure AM will be pretty mad if fifth freedom rights are granted, but for consumers this will be awesome.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
THY should fly nonstop to MEX & stop Santo Domingo on the way home.

Of course a non-stop routing both ways would be ideal, but the current aircraft in TK's fleet prevent it. I don't think a triangle route with no traffic rights would be that much better than MEX-HAV-IST assuming the latter would have traffic rights. That said, I do agree MEX needs a connection with SDQ, but that is another story.

I look forward to seeing TK land at MEX!



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25719 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10288 times:

Havana = big tourism market.
Some place many Turks might like to visit as exotic beach destinations are becoming popular with the booming middle class.

Also Turkey's trade volume is growing with Cuba including investments and opportunities in construction and tourism sectors.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAJMIA From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 733 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10291 times:

Miami has moved down the TK list to be a medium to long term plan city.

I have heard rumors that AA has been seriously considering starting service to IST.

Looking at the current AA hubs...

JFK already has TK and DL (seasonal) with UA from EWR.

ORD & LAX already have TK

DFW is probably not the strongest option especially with TK now flying nonstop to IAH with many of the same domestic connections available on UA codeshare flights.

MIA and Florida are very popular tourist destinations for Turks as well as all the connections to Latin America and the Caribbean.

I believe it is very possible that MIA-IST will relaunch but with AA this time.

Now after the AA/US merger, PHL might also be a good option for IST. US has healthy codeshare agreement with TK and I think they are going to miss that traffic after the merger. Whenever I fly on TK I see the US codeshare heavily promoted. Not so much UA (I guess they are more concerned with their own IST flight).

As for the three cities that TK has announced -- ATL, BOS & SFO, I think SFO should do well, ATL will be tougher, and BOS will probably be the biggest challenge.

AJMIA



Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25719 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10202 times:

AA would do PHL-IST. US looked very closely at it, but with limited widebodies was unable to launch it this year.

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 7):
ATL, BOS & SFO, I think SFO should do well, ATL will be tougher, and BOS will probably be the biggest challenge.

On paper BOS is the biggest market and one that there is growing demand for.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 2082 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10175 times:

As usual DTW is on nobody's list.

User currently offlineAJMIA From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 733 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10099 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
AA would do PHL-IST. US looked very closely at it, but with limited widebodies was unable to launch it this year.

It would either be PHL or MIA (both would be awesome). When I initially heard AA was looking at IST the merger had not been announced so at that point MIA made the most sense for AA.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
On paper BOS is the biggest market and one that there is growing demand for.

This surprises me. I wonder how much it will cannibalize on the TK nonstops from JFK?

AJMIA



Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10099 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
interesting to see how it effects AF.

and how it effects SU as well...
TK to HAV will probably be not so attractive for western Europeans : it implies a huge backtracking and TK will have to offer very low fares which may help loads but not yields...
On the other hand, TK might be successful in attracting pax from the CIS (Ukraine, Armenia, etc.) that would have thought of SU before AF for a vacation trip to Cuba, IMHO.



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27100 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 9991 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
and how it effects SU as well...
TK to HAV will probably be not so attractive for western Europeans : it implies a huge backtracking and TK will have to offer very low fares which may help loads but not yields...

TK will certainly gain from Ukraine/Russia/Greece/Italy/Lebanon/UAE/Iran/Romania/Bulgaria/Serbia/Croatia etc... just to name a few. The product is decent and the lack of transit visas coupled by very attractive fares will all add to the appeal. You will also get the people who will for the right price fly from further in Europe via IST to Cuba.

AF have had a bit of a monopoly in certain countries for travel via CDG to HAV. They have had a very comfortable relationship with big tour operators for a long time purely because they have the monopoly. It will be very interesting to see the figures after a TK arrival. VS fly from the UK and tend to fill their aircraft with UK tourists via their travel shops and UK agents so I dont see an impact there but AF has quite alot of transit from outside France. I noticed that on my own flights with AF down to Cuba on a few trips.


User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9889 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
TK will certainly gain from Ukraine/Russia/Greece/Italy/Lebanon/UAE/Iran/Romania/Bulgaria/Serbia/Croatia etc... just to name a few. The product is decent and the lack of transit visas coupled by very attractive fares will all add to the appeal. You will also get the people who will for the right price fly from further in Europe via IST to Cuba.

AF have had a bit of a monopoly in certain countries for travel via CDG to HAV. They have had a very comfortable relationship with big tour operators for a long time purely because they have the monopoly. It will be very interesting to see the figures after a TK arrival. VS fly from the UK and tend to fill their aircraft with UK tourists via their travel shops and UK agents so I dont see an impact there but AF has quite alot of transit from outside France. I noticed that on my own flights with AF down to Cuba on a few trips.

I agree with your analysis here. I was just mentioning that AF might not be the only one to be hurt by this new service. As a matter of fact, I am well aware that AF relies on travel agents and TO for their ops to HAV : try to book a flight to Cuba directly on AF website and watch their ridiculous, outrageous fares... For a mere RT ticket directly with AF, you can get an all inclusive package in Cuba through a TO which also includes the air travel on AF.... Indeed, they have a de facto monopoly since IB has axed the destination.
I do not know if TK will be successful in interesting western european TOs for this very destination. Agreements are made on a yearly basis I suppose and can be easily not renewed, but TK will have to offer very low fares and still, the TOs might be afraid to 1/displease their client with the backtracking and 2/displease AF itself with which they probably have agreements to other popular destinations such as Santo Domingo, the French West Indies, Western Africa, etc. that are not served or not as well served by TK. As you said, it will be interesting to watch  



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineadamh8297 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 962 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9747 times:

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 10):
This surprises me. I wonder how much it will cannibalize on the TK nonstops from JFK?

Not everyone likes connecting at JFK, especially when they will be switching terminals and/or connecting again at IST. Remember, TK will be gunning for 1-stop markets it will create by the IST hubs.

Here are some BOS traffic numbers that TK can tap into. I will list the top ten in PDEW

TLV - 75
BOM- 54
DEL - 50
ATH - 57
IST - 40 (which will go up due to stimulation by the non-stop)
BEY 36
SGN - 32 (only 500 miles more than BOS-NRT-SGN so its included)
VKO - 26 (only question mark since BOS-LHR-Moscow would be 900 miles shorter)
SIN - 22
DXB - 18

Total = 410 - Steal 50% of this traffic from LH/BA/AF etc. and you have about 4/5th of an A332 and 2/3rd of an A333 already full.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27100 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9736 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 13):
I was just mentioning that AF might not be the only one to be hurt by this new service.

Im sure it will effect more than AF . Maybe some charters too.

Quoting Azure (Reply 13):
1/displease their client with the backtracking and 2/displease AF itself

Well Im sure they would not burn their bridges as that is never a good idea. There maybe a drop in bookings on AF in favor of TK or it might make AF respond and lower their fares. I doubt any tour operator would ditch AF but if someone said to me it might have an effect of 25-30% in some markets then I would not be surprised.

Take Ireland for example. AF get over 75% of the Cuba traffic as thats really all there is other than the VS route via LGW. We used to have IB Via MAD but that went ages ago. BA went due to USA pressure so it left AF as the only real viable route. I dont expect to see tons of Irish flocking Via IST to get to HAV but it is a prime example of how AF have gained and have become a monopoly in just this one small market. The closer you are to IST the more I would expect to see a change. The countries I mentioned are the ones to watch and I would also maybe add Poland to that list.

I guess if someone wants a bargain they may fly a few hours for it. TK has proved it can throw out some amazing fares on its network and people do bite at the right price. When it gets to over EUR100 per person difference alot of people start to think.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8471 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8048 times:

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 10):
This surprises me. I wonder how much it will cannibalize on the TK nonstops from JFK?

Probably none. I don't think the NYC and BOS markets provide any overlap whatsoever. I can't imagine many passengers flying to JFK to connect to a TK flight. Right off the bat that would imply a 2 stop route for anyone not going to IST.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 14):
Not everyone likes connecting at JFK, especially when they will be switching terminals and/or connecting again at IST. Remember, TK will be gunning for 1-stop markets it will create by the IST hubs.

  


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6217 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7111 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
What does Turkish hope to achieve by flying to Havana, not even all the major European airlines fly to Cuba. Surely there has to be a better stop on an Istanbul to Mexico City route. THY should fly nonstop to MEX & stop Santo Domingo on the way home.

CUN would be better. IST-MEX-CUN-IST



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently onlineMiami From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 1502 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6946 times:
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TK to MIA in 2014 anyone?

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 10):
MIA made the most sense for AA.

Totally agree with you. But will TK compete with AA for IST-MIA ??



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
User currently offlinewingedtaurus From Mexico, joined Mar 2007, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6062 times:

What plabe could do IST-MEX-CUN-IST ? That is by far the best route

User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7591 posts, RR: 42
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5791 times:

The issue with MEX-IST is that even though there are favorable winds across the Atlantic which can shorten the flight time and boost fuel efficiency, the altitude of MEX compromises the range.

On the other hand, even though altitude is not an issue for IST-MEX because IST is at sea level, this leg would have to be flown with unfavorable headwinds that would require additional fuel burn and a longer flight time.

So, this is tricky both ways.

I am assuming that for the purported IST-HAV-MEX-HAV-IST, TK would use the 77W. Does TK have a smaller plane that can get to and from HAV without problems?



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2654 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5689 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 5):
If fifth freedom rights can be secured, this would be great! I am sure AM will be pretty mad if fifth freedom rights are granted, but for consumers this will be awesome.

To protect AM and 4O on MEX-HAV-MEX Mexican authorities would be keen to give TK 5th freedom rights only on HAV-TLC-HAV but not on HAV-MEX-HAV.
Remember what happened to MH on LAX-MEX-LAX.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineDolphinAir747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5545 times:

I'll believe it when I see it.

User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5469 times:

I assume a 332 or a 343 is going to do IST-HAV-MEX not a 77W. 77W is probably way to much capacity. TK flew 343's IST-MIA for years so I doubt HAV would be a problem....

User currently offlinewingedtaurus From Mexico, joined Mar 2007, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5218 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 23):
Option 2 - Launch GIG-SCL as this flight would be fed from pax connecting from BEY, SE Asia, India, GCC and Eastern Europe where as getting feed for HAV/MEX from Europe via IST would be a whole lot more difficult due to the back tracking involved.

My take is that TK is aiming not at Western Europe traffic from MEX but Eastern Europe, Middle East and India. MEX is perhaps the biggest market in Latin America after GRU, and GRU already has EK, EY and QR. If they really want to position themselves as a global airline they need MEX in Latam. The question is how to do it


User currently offlineYTZ From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 2067 posts, RR: 24
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5107 times:

Quoting wingedtaurus (Reply 28):
The question is how to do it

Buy AI's used 77Ls?


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6348 posts, RR: 31
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4967 times:
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Quoting EddieDude (Reply 5):
If fifth freedom rights can be secured, this would be great! I am sure AM will be pretty mad if fifth freedom rights are granted, but for consumers this will be awesome.

I´m sure AM and 4O will raise a ruckus and won´t let TK have those 5fth. freedom rights. Let see how the new administration treats civil aviation although this has been among the most protected sectors in the Mexican economy. Better would be via CUN, wether both ways or on a triangle route.

It´s a good move, there´s a lot of low yield leisure traffic and high yielding business traffic between MEX, Turkey, BEY, and the Mediterranean region in general. It´s going to be a good choice to connect to FCO, ATH and CAI for example

TK will fare well, although I do believe that to start with the 77W might be too much.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7591 posts, RR: 42
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4941 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 23):
To protect AM and 4O on MEX-HAV-MEX Mexican authorities would be keen to give TK 5th freedom rights only on HAV-TLC-HAV but not on HAV-MEX-HAV.
Remember what happened to MH on LAX-MEX-LAX.

This is a very good point 2travel2know. However, firstly, before speculating, I think we need to see if there is a Turkey-Mexico air services agreement and whether it allows for flights to MEX by Turkish carriers via HAV or other points with full traffic rights. If the agreement does not exist or if it exists but does not contemplate this possibility or states that it is a discretionary decision of the Mexican government, then we will see what happens.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 26):

I assume a 332 or a 343 is going to do IST-HAV-MEX not a 77W. 77W is probably way to much capacity. TK flew 343's IST-MIA for years so I doubt HAV would be a problem....

I concur with AR385 and you that the 77W might be at first a bit big. I forgot about the A340-300s. Those should be able to fly from IST to HAV and back without issues, so that might actually be a good choice for launch aircraft.

Quoting wingedtaurus (Reply 28):
My take is that TK is aiming not at Western Europe traffic from MEX but Eastern Europe, Middle East and India. MEX is perhaps the biggest market in Latin America after GRU, and GRU already has EK, EY and QR. If they really want to position themselves as a global airline they need MEX in Latam. The question is how to do it

Absolutely. TK is going for MEX-Turkey, MEX-Middle East, MEX-Eastern Europe/former USSR, MEX-Eastern Africa, MEX-Central Asia/South Asia/India and MEX-Southeast Asia even! About MEX being second to Sao Paulo (i.e., GRU/CGH/VCP), yes, definitely. There is no room for the "perhaps" qualifier. MEX's catchment area is the second largest market in Latin America.

You also have to remember that U.S. carriers satisfy a huge chunk of the demand of Mexico-Europe/Africa/Asia travel. The rest is well catered to by AF, IB, BA, KL, LH via their European hubs (and a tiny bit of the Mexico-East Asia market perhaps by AM's interlining partners via NRT and PVG). In this sense, landing at Mexico has never been as important for the big Middle East carriers as it was landing at Brazil (Brazil is a more convenient market for the Middle Eastern carriers due to its geographic location, in addition to its BRIC status).

Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
I´m sure AM and 4O will raise a ruckus and won´t let TK have those 5fth. freedom rights.

No doubt about it. As I mentioned though, we have to see first what the bilateral states (or whether it even exists, which I am sure it does) as I mentioned above.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
via CUN, wether both ways or on a triangle route.

If it were to be CUN, there would be no need to stop there both ways; a triangle routing would suffice because Mexico does not allow cabotage by foreign carriers, so paying twice the landing fees, taxes, services, etc. would be idiotic.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
It´s a good move, there´s a lot of low yield leisure traffic and high yielding business traffic between MEX, Turkey, BEY, and the Mediterranean region in general. It´s going to be a good choice to connect to FCO, ATH and CAI for example

Not so sure about FCO to be honest. It is much more efficient to get there via one stop in North America or Western Europe using the likes of AA, DL, UA, AC, AF, IB (and even LH , BA and KL!). I guess if the price is right, though, TK could be a good option.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6348 posts, RR: 31
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4921 times:
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Quoting EddieDude (Reply 33):
Not so sure about FCO to be honest. It is much more efficient to get there via one stop in North America or Western Europe using the likes of AA, DL, UA, AC, AF, IB (and even LH , BA and KL!). I guess if the price is right, though, TK could be a good option.

You are totally right. But if they offer the right fares, they can pull it off, given the fact that connecting in the US has the VISA issues and the European carriers during summer can have very expensive fares ex-MEX. TK won´t make FCO viable or similar on convenience, but certainly on price. They should be aware of that.

[Edited 2013-06-19 19:32:19]

User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7591 posts, RR: 42
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4869 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
You are totally right. But if they offer the right fares, they can pull it off, given the fact that connecting in the US has the VISA issues and the European carriers during summer can have very expensive fairs esx-MEX. TK won´t make FCO viable or similar on convenience, but certainly on price. They should be aware of that.

I concur. At the right price, who cares about backtracking if it is only 2-3 hours and you still need to do one stop anyway!



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8471 posts, RR: 10
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4299 times:

Quoting wingedtaurus (Reply 19):
What plabe could do IST-MEX-CUN-IST ? That is by far the best route

CUN would be entirely leisure oriented while HAV has a business component to it.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 20):
On the other hand, even though altitude is not an issue for IST-MEX because IST is at sea level, this leg would have to be flown with unfavorable headwinds that would require additional fuel burn and a longer flight time.

It's a 6,000nm route. Well within the range of the 77W. CX's JFK-HKG is 1,000nm further and with stronger winds. The problem is, the 77W may be too big to start this route.


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4277 times:

HAV can attract more business than Cancun for sure but i´m not sure if this will be enough to sustain the flight profitably, right now the links with China specially are big and there´s a lot of traffic between the both places, and AF-KLM were doing all by themselves given that no transit pax to Cuba is allowed to go via USA, well, some of them were traveling via Canada.

Backtracking is a big issue because it´s quite a lot of backtrack if you are flying for north europe or west Europe so UX, AF, KLM have a great advantage here, but CIO config on the B777 in AF is terrible, If I have to choose i´d fly KLM or UX for sure rather than AF.


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2654 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4181 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 32):
CUN would be entirely leisure oriented while HAV has a business component to it.

There is an amount of conventions at CUN too.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 33):
HAV can attract more business than Cancun for sure but i´m not sure if this will be enough to sustain the flight profitably,

The way it looks, HAV would be the tech stop with traffic for IST-MEX-IST.
HAV traffic won't be paying for the flight expenses, MEX will.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4395 posts, RR: 12
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3605 times:

Ok, first of all, the CAPA article has a number of ridiculously amateur mistakes which I just have to mention because they're supposed to be a an organization focused only on aviation press, and it is unacceptable:

1. They say CCS is served by five european airlines: UX, IB, LH, TP and AF. What about AZ?
2. MEX isn't served by AF either?
3. Also, although it seems to have been corrected, when I first read the article they said BOG was served by three euro carriers - AF, IB and KL. Not only does KL not serve BOG, how did it get past them to include LH?
4. Since when is BOG-CCS capped by bilateral agreements? Colombia and Venezuela have an open skies policy, it is one thing that venezuelan authorities are difficult to treat with and make it hard to add extra capacity, but there is no "billateral cap" on the BOG-CCS route.

But on another note, these are good news, as new connections to the east are badly needed. But TK's flights, specially from BOG and MEX, will be less competitive as compared to their european peers non-stop options (people will pay less for a BOG-CCS-IST-BOM flight than for BOG-FRA-BOM).

It will be an interesting options and I hope they establish codeshares with AV to carry pax from the BOG hub to places like LIM, UIO, GYE, SCL, VLN, AUA, CUR, PTY, SJO, CUN and SAL.



Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7591 posts, RR: 42
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3389 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 30):
It's a 6,000nm route. Well within the range of the 77W. CX's JFK-HKG is 1,000nm further and with stronger winds. The problem is, the 77W may be too big to start this route.

If you read the CAPA article, the TK officer quoted mentioned that IST-MEX-IST nonstop was challenging due to MEX's altitude. Therefore, either they are planning to fly with a different type of plane, or even the 77W would have trouble making it nonstop on the return leg due to MEX's altitude.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 31):
HAV can attract more business than Cancun for sure but i´m not sure if this will be enough to sustain the flight profitably, right now the links with China specially are big and there´s a lot of traffic between the both places, and AF-KLM were doing all by themselves given that no transit pax to Cuba is allowed to go via USA, well, some of them were traveling via Canada.

I wonder if Asian, especially Chinese, visitors actually use AM's PVG-TIJ-MEX and then a MEX-HAV as a way of reaching Cuba. I suppose not many do considering they would need Mexican transit visas. Interesting thought though.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 32):
There is an amount of conventions at CUN too.

But probably organized by Mexican, U.S., Canadian and Central American companies... I would not imagine a company based out of Europe (much less Mumbai, Dubai, Singapore or Moscow) organizing a convention at CUN (I mean, not many). Plus, I would also imagine that when companies organize conventions away from their H.Q. cities, they buy airplane seats in block for their employees at an attractive fare, so perhaps these types of events do not represent high-yield traffic for airlines who sell these blocks of seats.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 32):
The way it looks, HAV would be the tech stop with traffic for IST-MEX-IST.
HAV traffic won't be paying for the flight expenses, MEX will.

I would say the HAV-MEX traffic rights are still an "if". But yeah, HAV would play in this route more or less the same role that TIJ plays in AM's Asian services.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
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