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CVG Updates II  
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1916 posts, RR: 21
Posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4739 times:

Hey all,

The Enquirer ran an interesting article today which can be found here. The article brought up a couple of interesting facts which I thought were worthy of discussion:

1) CVG is specifically targeting 8 markets for additional service: Boston, Baltimore, New York-LaGuardia, Tampa, Las Vegas, Atlanta, Orlando and Chicago.

2) These markets were chosen based on a recent study of the amount of leakage from CVG to surrounding airports. The following are PDEW (pax daily each way) numbers that were released about how many Cincinnati-area travelers fly from CVG to a specific destination versus those going to a surrounding airport:
-Chicago-Midway: CVG= 0/SDF= 178
-Orlando: CVG= 230/DAY= 75
-Atlanta: CVG= 174/DAY= 57
-Las Vegas: CVG= 166/DAY= 57
-Tampa: CVG= 167/DAY= 55
-New York-LaGuardia: CVG= 237/DAY= 54
-Baltimore: CVG= 98/DAY= 52
-Boston: CVG= 196/DAY= 45

3) Looks like Mike Boyd couldn't resist giving his two cents: “Someone needs to give Cincinnati a real, hard dose of reality,” said airline analyst Michael Boyd, chairman of Boyd Group International, a Colorado-based consulting firm. “Southwest has pretty clearly indicated they’re not coming to Cincinnati. They’re expanding in Dayton. They’re doing OK in Columbus. Their fleet’s not growing” after the AirTran acquisition.

4) Frontier's new CVG-DEN flights are 94% sold out through August.

5) A bit of side news as well that's unrelated to the article is that apparently DL is ending red-eye service to CVG from the West Coast by re-timing departures from the West to depart earlier for the stated reason of better accomodating business travelers.

6) The article quotes CEO Richard Anderson stating last week that Delta feels "really good" about where their service levels are at CVG.

7) Still looks like the planned upgauges to 757's are still in the schedule for CVG-SFO and CVG-SEA so, fingers crossed, it'll be great to see the 757 back at CVG. Hard to believe I used to think it was one of the most boring mainline Delta planes to see at CVG during the mega-hub days!

My thoughts:

1) It's good to see the airport being more targeted in their efforts, having a specific idea of what you want is better than just throwing a bunch of stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. All would be good destinations for additional service/competition except perhaps Atlanta which DL handily does and always will dominate.

2) Interesting to finally see some hard numbers on the subject. Though it's not completely comprehensive by leaving out CMH and IND, it gives a really good idea of what CVG could stand to gain with additional service to lure back those passengers.

3) I don't think Boyd is wholly incorrect, but I don't buy into his argument. People were saying Southwest wouldn't come to the Cincinnati area before the AirTran merger, yet they decided to keep DAY as a station along with the fact that they also serve CLE and CAK. Last I checked as well, Southwest wasn't "expanding" in DAY either, perhaps he meant full-conversion to a WN station?

4) Great to see Frontier is doing well, hope this bodes well for the future.

5) Curious if the re-timing carries any hidden meaning or if it simply is just a schedule change to better accommodate their most frequent travelers, frequencies aren't being slashed, just the times changed, any one have insights into that?

6) Interesting to hear some positive talk from DL about CVG, but I'm only cautiously optimistic. More cuts are definitely a possibility, but there's one important factor in play with DL and CVG that didn't exist for them in MEM: DL owns and, hub or no-hub, would have to continue to make bond payments on Concourse B until the 2020's I believe. Only time will tell though I guess.

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2005 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4613 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):

3) I don't think Boyd is wholly incorrect, but I don't buy into his argument. People were saying Southwest wouldn't come to the Cincinnati area before the AirTran merger, yet they decided to keep DAY as a station along with the fact that they also serve CLE and CAK. Last I checked as well, Southwest wasn't "expanding" in DAY either, perhaps he meant full-conversion to a WN station?

What Boyd is really saying is "CVG should hire me to put together a pretty little PowerPoint to show Southwest". Has he actually ever landed any service for any of these airports that hire him?


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25159 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4495 times:
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Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
1) CVG is specifically targeting 8 markets for additional service: Boston, Baltimore, New York-LaGuardia, Tampa, Las Vegas, Atlanta, Orlando and Chicago.
Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
Frontier's new CVG-DEN flights are 94% sold out through August.

So CVG has just landed it's first LCC in fifteen years and now they're chasing Southwest - which would probably drive out Frontier. Oh, well, them the breaks.  

The Frontier CEO was asked about expansion (before they started service) and he said that while they had no immediate plans, the obvious choice would be TTN or ILG and I think that's fair enough. CVG-TTN would probably avoid any Delta retaliation.

Leave the others - the eight on the list - to the big boys to duke out with Delta.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 758 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4477 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
5) A bit of side news as well that's unrelated to the article is that apparently DL is ending red-eye service to CVG from the West Coast by re-timing departures from the West to depart earlier for the stated reason of better accomodating business travelers.

The red-eyes are going to leave the west coast *later* (early am) to arrive later (7-ish) for better conx to east bound cities. It'll pick up some cnx pax and rely less on O&D. CMH has a surprising number of LGA cnx pax from LAX off the red-eye.

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
4) Great to see Frontier is doing well, hope this bodes well for the future.

Numbers from ground staff are indicating that they're struggling with processing the people with only 2 agents and have had to buy off (ie send to DL) 30-40 pax per day. I don't have hard numbers, but that's coming from friends on the ground here on a daily basis. Could be wishful thinking.



My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1916 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4408 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):

So CVG has just landed it's first LCC in fifteen years and now they're chasing Southwest - which would probably drive out Frontier. Oh, well, them the breaks.

I know, right? But you know how it goes, everyone and their mother wants Southwest to fly to their airport.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 3):
Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
5) A bit of side news as well that's unrelated to the article is that apparently DL is ending red-eye service to CVG from the West Coast by re-timing departures from the West to depart earlier for the stated reason of better accomodating business travelers.

The red-eyes are going to leave the west coast *later* (early am) to arrive later (7-ish) for better conx to east bound cities.

Ah ok, gotcha. Just wasn't sure how to read into that change, if there was anything to read into at all.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 3):
Numbers from ground staff are indicating that they're struggling with processing the people with only 2 agents and have had to buy off (ie send to DL) 30-40 pax per day. I don't have hard numbers, but that's coming from friends on the ground here on a daily basis. Could be wishful thinking.

That's great to hear as, in the past everyone stayed with Delta and the competition's flights would leave half-full, so definitely good that their loads are robust.


User currently offlineih8b6 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 208 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4177 times:

You may not like Boyd's 2 cents, he's annoyed me for years, but he is spot on. I laugh everytime I read on of these articles in the Enquirer. Cincinnati people sure like to bitch about the lack of air service, but when they had it, all they did is complain. The airport is right to no longer hang their hat on Delta, but the airport and the area need to realize that CVG is a small market area. However, if they ever get the service they want, the passengers better stay loyal to the new guy instead of flocking back to Delta when the fares get lowered.


P.s. what's with all the ads suddenly on airliners? More annoying than ever.



Over-moderation sucks
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4128 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
New York-LaGuardia

Post-merger, I could definitely see AA ending JFK-CVG and reentering LGA-CVG in its place with 3-4 daily 2-class RJs. This is a prime business market with strong local demand and little competition, and once the merger goes through, AA will have a fair amount of well-timed LGA slots to play with. Plus, after the merger, there will no longer be any reason to fly an ERJ between CVG and JFK in the middle of the day timed for nothing but European connections, all of which will by then easily be served via PHL.


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4084 times:

Quoting B727FA (Reply 3):
Numbers from ground staff are indicating that they're struggling with processing the people with only 2 agents and have had to buy off (ie send to DL) 30-40 pax per day. I don't have hard numbers, but that's coming from friends on the ground here on a daily basis

I wonder how this works. First, I'm not sure Delta has 30-40 seats to give F9. These flights (at least on Monday mornings) are packed. Secondly, my flight to CVG last week from DEN (via MSP) was cancelled and the very nice Delta agent said she would love to put me on F9 but they didn't have an agreement with them.

Also, I wished F9 would reconsider the departure time out of CVG to leave a little later.

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
DL is ending red-eye service to CVG from the West Coast by re-timing departures from the West to depart earlier for the stated reason of better accomodating business travelers.


These flights are retimed to depart the west coast around noon and arrive CVG at 7pm ish. There is one red eye from LAX along with the noon departure.


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4063 times:

As a person who doesn't pay for my own travel, I hoping WN doesn't come to CVG. My company would probably force me to fly them (if they were the cheapest option.)

I wouldn't want to give up my upgrade, SkyClub, pre check etc...


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1916 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3918 times:

Quoting ih8b6 (Reply 5):

Oh I totally agree that it's insufferable the way some of the traveling here think they can have their cake and eat it too, I just disagree with him about WN.

Quoting commavia (Reply 6):
Post-merger, I could definitely see AA ending JFK-CVG and reentering LGA-CVG in its place with 3-4 daily 2-class RJs.

Possibly, I think we'll have to wait and see exactly what their combined strategy will be at JFK, LGA and PHL, but I would definitely hope CVG-NYC would remain at least a three-carrier market to keep pricing decent.

Quoting seatback (Reply 8):
As a person who doesn't pay for my own travel, I hoping WN doesn't come to CVG. My company would probably force me to fly them (if they were the cheapest option.)

I wouldn't want to give up my upgrade, SkyClub, pre check etc...

Well, at least you're honest about it lol, most Cincinnatians with Skymile accounts talk out of both sides of their mouth...they say they want a low-fare carrier, but then never support them when there is one.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7474 posts, RR: 18
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3742 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
4) Great to see Frontier is doing well, hope this bodes well for the future.

Here's the thing about F9 that's different than so-called "LCCs" that served CVG in the past-

F9 is actually financially stable, profitable, and all-around decent airline.


Other airlines that have tried to serve CVG? Well, they dont even exist anymore.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3560 times:

Quoting seatback (Reply 7):
These flights are retimed to depart the west coast around noon and arrive CVG at 7pm ish. There is one red eye from LAX along with the noon departure.

They've recently changed the Denver departure to Cinciannati to 8:30a.m. which is a bummer. I'd give my right arm for a 5p.m. departure.

At least they're running mainline to DEN now. No CRJ's at least until Christmas (from what I can tell.)


User currently offlinekmot From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3542 times:

In regards to farming 30-40 people a day to DL...

F9 no longer has agreements with DL and UA. Correct me if I am mistaken.

If this were true, their load factors would be less than 80%.

Could this incident coincide with F9 recent change from 30 min check-in cut off to 45 min check-in cut off?

And finally, when I checked in for my flight at 415am, F9 had the only staff at any counter, there were 4 agents, one per computer. When I was checking in, a lady traveling on United, walked down and asked when the United counter would open. The Frontier agent kindly replied, they open an hour prior to departure.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1916 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3373 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
F9 is actually financially stable, profitable, and all-around decent airline.


Other airlines that have tried to serve CVG? Well, they dont even exist anymore.

Well, I don't think you can totally put the blame on the airlines themselves, none of them suspended their CVG services due to their eventual folding, they pulled out before because their flights were leaving half-empty, in other words, as much as people complained about DL and their pricing, they still wouldn't support the competition. But here's to that changing now, hopefully!


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7474 posts, RR: 18
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3181 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 13):
Well, I don't think you can totally put the blame on the airlines themselves, none of them suspended their CVG services due to their eventual folding, they pulled out before because their flights were leaving half-empty, in other words, as much as people complained about DL and their pricing, they still wouldn't support the competition. But here's to that changing now, hopefully!

Well again there's a difference- for example, where the heck did Transmeridian fly to? Same with those other smaller airlines? No one wanted to fly them because they had probably the worst possible business model.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1916 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3025 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
Well again there's a difference- for example, where the heck did Transmeridian fly to? Same with those other smaller airlines? No one wanted to fly them because they had probably the worst possible business model.

True of Transmeridian, but Vanguard (MDW) and Airtran (Florida) were pretty straight forward and Cincinnati pretty much said "thanks but no thanks".


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3740 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2960 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 15):
True of Transmeridian, but Vanguard (MDW) and Airtran (Florida) were pretty straight forward and Cincinnati pretty much said "thanks but no thanks".

I flew Vanguard from MDW and connected in their MCI hub (man, I hated connecting at MCI with its layout, even before 9/11) a lot back when I lived in Chicagoland, from about 1997 until 2000. I remember flying to DFW, DEN, and LAX on Vanguard from MDW via MCI, all on 732s. And I remember reading their route maps in their in-flight magazine. Based on that, I think Vanguard also flew from CVG to their MCI hub in addition to MDW, and maybe even LGA as well.

And IIRC, TransMeridian flew to SFB, which they also flew to from TOL as well. No surprise that they quit CVG-SFB but kept TOL (with no competition) when DL flew CVG-MCO a gazillion times a day. And after TransMeridian folded, G4 picked up TOL-SFB and still flies it today.



Primary Airport: FWA/Alternate Airport: DTW/Not employed by the FWACAA or their partners
User currently offlinekmot From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2760 times:

What about the possibility of F9 doing 3 to 4 x weekly service to MCO? Will DL then show its teeth?

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25159 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2701 times:
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Quoting kmot (Reply 17):
What about the possibility of F9 doing 3 to 4 x weekly service to MCO? Will DL then show its teeth?

Before the DEN service started, the Frontier CEO was asked about "other routes" and he said that while they had no immediate plans, the obvious one would be to either TTN or ILG.

I guess MCO might be in their minds, at least - but it (or SFB) is also, apparently, in Allegiant's mind, either at CVG or Lunken.

There is a theory, started in Milwaukee, that Frontier and Delta have an improved relationship now:

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee...of-convention-center.html?page=all

"Was convention center sponsorship part of larger Delta-Frontier deal?"

Maybe. The extension is that Delta will turn a blind eye to Frontier as long as it doesn't tread too hard on Delta's toes. Delta will still compete with Frontier, of course, but nothing like what it did at MCI.

So far it's worked out. Delta hasn't responded to TTN-ATL/DTW, or really to DEN-CVG. You could argue that Delta starting PHL-RDU is a bit of a swing at Frontier's TTN-RDU, but I don't think Frontier is the target of this - if Delta really wanted Frontier to feel pain, it would hit much harder.

But how Delta would react to CVG-MCO is another matter.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1721 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2697 times:
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For my friends who believe Richard regarding Cincinnati, hold onto hope. While Richard is extremely smart and very judicious with his words, he ate all of them with Memphis.

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5420 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 18):
Delta hasn't responded to TTN-ATL/DTW, or really to DEN-CVG.

It isn't in Delta's interest to put Frontier on the mat; Frontier is useful causing trouble for United.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25159 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2513 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 20):
It isn't in Delta's interest to put Frontier on the mat; Frontier is useful causing trouble for United.

Previously, Delta has gone nuclear whenever Frontier has encroached on its territory, as at MCI.

Northwest did the same.

mariner

[Edited 2013-06-22 04:34:47]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekmot From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2394 times:

When is Frontier's next schedule extension. Do you think CVG could see additional flts to DEN? Didn't they have up to 3xDaily service out of DAY some years back? Why they reduce frequency?

User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1916 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2353 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 16):
Based on that, I think Vanguard also flew from CVG to their MCI hub in addition to MDW, and maybe even LGA as well.

Hmm, I don't quite recall them ever flying CVG-LGA, MCI possibly, but I do specifically remember their $19 airfares to MDW. And then AirTran also flew to MCO numerous times a week for quite a while, my dad and I flew them once coming back from Disneyworld when they still flew 732's.

Quoting mariner (Reply 18):
Before the DEN service started, the Frontier CEO was asked about "other routes" and he said that while they had no immediate plans, the obvious one would be to either TTN or ILG.

I would welcome either, but I have mixed feelings about how they would perform given that local travelers haven't been that exposed to the LCC concept, let alone the idea of flying into an outer airport and having to drive the rest of the way to your final destination, maybe I'm wrong though.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 19):
For my friends who believe Richard regarding Cincinnati, hold onto hope. While Richard is extremely smart and very judicious with his words, he ate all of them with Memphis.

We know all too well, but for the time being the schedules seem to be holding steady at least with a few welcomed upgauges.

Quoting kmot (Reply 22):
Do you think CVG could see additional flts to DEN?

If the flights do well enough, I could see at least a daily schedule some point soon.


User currently offlinekmot From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2232 times:

F9 is doing 7 flts a week currently to DEN. The only day with no DEN flts is on Saturday. The 7pm on Sunday is sold out through the rest of the schedule.

25 FWAERJ : F9 cut frequency, then got out of DAY, and packed up for CVG, all after WN started DAY-DEN. Their reasoning for leaving DAY upon announcing the suspe
26 mariner : There were several reasons for it, including the arrival of Southwest on DEN-DAY, but also to consolidate with the CVG Apple flights - CVG-CUN/PUJ ar
27 Post contains images PHX787 : UA recently began to add a second daily CRJ to DEN in response to F9.......
28 mariner : It's high summer and the old story - LCC's can stimulate traffic. mariner
29 slcdeltarumd11 : True, but that is very very old news for this industry and how much it has changed. Big picture I would imagine Delta wants Frontier now to survive a
30 mariner : Delta's invasion of MCI in response to Frontier's MCI-MSP was two years ago. I don't think of it as "very very old" news - I see it as part of a cons
31 kmot : When does Frontier issue their next schedule extension?
32 flyguy89 : F9 had also stated around the time that something like almost half their bookings in DAY were from Cincinnati-area residents. IIRC UA has always fluc
33 kmot : I thought DL still had the lease on Concourse C until 2025.
34 slcdeltarumd11 : I think Delta is paying a full lease on C, B and the maintenance areas. Plus they had a long lease on A for along time still i thought they worked so
35 michman : Delta and CVG renegotiated the lease on Concourse A so that CVG could move the other airlines to it. I don't believe DL is paying anything on those g
36 LoneStarMike : I don't know how it works at CVG, but at other airports where one airline is holding the lease but not using the gate, the airport can force the leas
37 LHCVG : I do seem to recall a deal of some form being made about A along the lines you mention. One interesting tidbit I heard rumor of a few months ago was
38 kmot : There are currently 7-10 unused gates at A, it makes no sense to reopen C, restart bus service (as only one operational bus is left) and get concessio
39 Post contains links michman : Here's a news article from 2011 -- http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/local_n...elta-releases-strangle-hold-on-cvg "The Cincinnati Northern Kentucky Intern
40 FWAERJ : Are you sure of that? F9 operates seven DEN flights a week from CVG (1x Monday-Friday and 2x on Sunday) in addition to the Apple Vacations flights.
41 kmot : Yep... On Saturday night, they have two RON aircraft. One at A8 and one at A22. The A22 aircraft typically does PUJ the following morning. A8 is their
42 flyguy89 : Really? Because it was my understanding that DL owns and makes bond payments on Concourse B and just leases the land it sits on from the KCAB, at lea
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