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IAG AGM: Walsh Calls IB Situation Critical  
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 894 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 27399 times:

SPEECH BY WILLIE WALSH, CHIEF EXECUTIVE, INTERNATIONAL AIRLINES GROUP
at the Annual General Meeting, Thursday June 20, 2013

Walsh stated about IBERIA:

'The airline has become unprofitable in all its markets - including longhaul - and its high cost base means it is unable to compete effectively with other airlines, both European and Latin American.'

'I cannot stress strongly enough that the situation is critical and none of us want to see Iberia disappear.'

Will IBERIA survive or follow SR, SN, MA,..........OA and possibly others?

http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=240949&p=media

[Edited 2013-06-20 08:44:58]

[Edited 2013-06-20 08:47:57]

206 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 27345 times:

So why did IAG/BA buy Iberia? What changed?

User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3585 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 27194 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 1):
So why did IAG/BA buy Iberia? What changed?

The Spanish economy has bombed, their growth has proved to be unsustainable. I recall figures of 2 million unoccupied homes, unemployment of around 25% etc.
One major factor is the general lack of credit, lots of Northern Europeans bought properties in Spain, some as holiday homes, some as investments and some as retirement homes. Many of these were financed by remortgaging the buyers family home, never a good idea.
Now that investment income returns have dwindled, and finance become hard to obtain, people don't have money to invest in Spanish property, plus the values have plummeted leaving owners with huge debts.
Another factor is that Northern Europe is no longer prepared to see vats sums of development aid heading South.

Much of this was beginning to emerge whilst the merger negotiations were taking place, I think BA management thought that if things turned for the worse IB staff would accept cuts with a degree of realism, rather as BA staff with the exception of BASSA members had.


User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 27027 times:

I wonder what Plan B is? I don't think IAG is going to walk away from Spain (not least because they have VY as well as IB).

Possibilities:
VY to deliver all short-haul? IB short-haul totally disappears?
IB gets "Tyroleaned" (if that is a word!) and absorbed/taken over/replaced by VY?
IB long-haul shuts down and BA starts operating from MAD?

I imagine the management/owners of Air Nostrum are getting pretty worried too.



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User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 26886 times:

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 3):
Possibilities:
VY to deliver all short-haul? IB short-haul totally disappears?
IB gets "Tyroleaned" (if that is a word!) and absorbed/taken over/replaced by VY?
IB long-haul shuts down and BA starts operating from MAD?

They all sound viable options to me but the last one would only work for markets with an open skies arrangement.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 3):
I wonder what Plan B is? I don't think IAG is going to walk away from Spain

Don't think so either. They are there for long term strategic reasons.


User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1580 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 26833 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 1):
So why did IAG/BA buy Iberia? What changed?

They bought it several years too late, the deal made more sense when it was first talked about but they couldn't get it done on the first pass. It was rotting by the time BA came to an agreement with IB but BA still needed a consolidation partner.



BV
User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 26830 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 4):
the last one would only work for markets with an open skies arrangement.

BA could create a Spanish subsidiary called British South American Airways (BSAA) to operate the flights from MAD to South America and get round any bilateral issues. (Wonder where I got that name from?   )



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User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 26753 times:
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BA's options will narrow significantly if they can't get their costs base in order and fast. It may be a matter of semantics but 27% unemployment in Spain is approaching depression era levels. The overall economic picture in Spain has gutted IBs main market and so far, IAG hasn't been able to adjust IB to fit the economic picture in Spain.

If the cost situation isn't resolved soon, I think all options must be considered by IAG to protect the parent company. This would have to include a break-up/liquidation and other options that would have been unthinkable when IAG first decided to acquire IB.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3253 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 26437 times:

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 6):

BA could create a Spanish subsidiary called British South American Airways (BSAA) to operate the flights from MAD to South America and get round any bilateral issues.

* adopts Armstrong and Millar voice "I say old chap what a toppo spiffing idea"

Showing your age?  
I think the Vueling / Iberia Express options are Plan B. Iberia may be about to do an Austrian / Tyrolean.


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 894 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 26285 times:

Just to put the message more in perspective. The figures for Madrid Airport's performance in 2013 are dramatic:

- Jan. 2013 = 2.909.725 pax (-13.0%)
- Febr. 2013 = 2.636.544 pax (-16.2%)
- March 2013 = 3.173.020 pax (-14.0%)
- April 2013 = 3.248.353 pax. (-16.1%)
- May 2013 = 3.405.450 pax. (-14.1%)

Yes, domestic MAD operations are particularly hit due to fast trains and the departure of Ryanair & easyJet.

But IB contributes to this fall as well.


User currently offlineseahawk From Germany, joined May 2005, 1049 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 26186 times:

Well, the question is what the future should be. Using Iberia Express to feed the long haul flights is not going to work, as the service is too bad, even comapred to the new Germanwings. Then they operate to Germany, but even have a German website and their english one is bad. try finding out if they have food or drink on the plane...

User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 26124 times:

Should BA not be able to stop the red ink, it's going to drag them down too.
How drastic the measures will be or should be is yet to be seen. IAG may
have swallowed a poison pill with this.

What is the fix? Don't know. Down size IB? Slash IB routes that are loss
making? It's got to be serious, and it's got to be soon.



737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlinebluesky73 From UK - England, joined Oct 2012, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 26021 times:

Slim down long haul to A330 and Maybe look to replace and reduce A343/346 fleet and routes. I know they starting to do this but maybe this process needs speeding up.

Having Iberia mainline shorthaul, express and Vueling is too much.
Keep the most profitable shorthaul routes in Iberia name and or let Vueling grow and take over. Let express die.

Iberia is still a good brand and Vueling not a great name really, as discussed in past here. The Tyrolean option is a good idea.

I just hope whatever they do keeps some of IB brand but sounds like IB is on life support and big decisions need to be made.

It will be sad day for European aviation if the IB brand totally disappears.


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 25833 times:

Oh come on, what is this talk for now? They already reached an agreement with the unions in march, routes are being axed, A333's coming in, people being fired, etc. The bases for a turnaround are being set, but you can't expect it to happen in 2 months. A lot of the effects won't kick in until late this year or next. Why this catastrophism instead of trying to build confidence in the recovery? Does he want to ruin everything? Is he trying to provoke another round of strikes?

Quoting factsonly (Thread starter):
none of us want to see Iberia disappear.'

Walsh couldn't care less about IB as an airline, but he does care a lot about their AOC, their bilaterals, and MAD T4.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 2):
I think BA management thought that if things turned for the worse IB staff would accept cuts with a degree of realism

They already did in march. 3000+ people being fired, and those who remain are taking pay cuts and will work more hours for less money.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 3):
VY to deliver all short-haul? IB short-haul totally disappears?
IB gets "Tyroleaned" (if that is a word!) and absorbed/taken over/replaced by VY?
IB long-haul shuts down and BA starts operating from MAD?

IB shorthaul ex-MAD was meant to be completely taken over by Express, but that is currently held up at a court. IB has already handed all non-MAD flying to VY some time ago. BA could not operate LatAm from MAD because it has to be a Spanish-based airline for the bilaterals to work. But having IB tyroleaned by VY could work.

Quoting FI642 (Reply 11):
Down size IB? Slash IB routes that are loss
making?

Already happening, see MVD, HAV, SDQ, TXL, AMS, etc etc. And some A343's have been retired without any direct replacement.

So once again, what more does he want? He should show patience for the changes to take effect, and build confidence rather than destroy it.


User currently offlinemfc From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 25564 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 13):

I agree with you, but you forget about the pilots, they didn't sign the new working conditions that every other labour groups did. They are currently trying to reach an agreement and pilots are threatening with new strikes in Summer (something that would be very bad for both Iberia and pilots because the media and public opinion won't support or understand the strike). I think that this announcement made by Walsh is just for warning the pilots that if they don't reach an agreement they will close Iberia down.

Apart from that, I find normal that now even long haul is unprofitable, as with the European network reduced drastically they are not able to feed long haul. I think that downsizing the network that much hasn't helped either.



So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1600 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 24477 times:

It's really difficult to analyze IB's situation without more detail. All Walsh states is that IB has a "high cost base." That could be just about anything. It seems odd that IAG hasn't been able to reduce costs - which may hint at labor costs that are complicated by union issues.

Interesting, though very unfortunate, situation. I hope, for the employees' sake, IAG can turn the company around.


User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 23086 times:

Obviously IAG keeps operate funds to operate their owned airlines, correct? So if IB were to go down the drain, this would have no effect on BA one would imagine?

Do BA have an exit clause? With all the anti-BA MAD demonstrations and the fact that BA is making a profit, I'm surprised that the BA side of IAG is not looking into an exit strategy, because in the end it will effect BA operations and profits.

I like the idea of "BA Latin" operating out of MAD.  


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 22123 times:

Quoting mfc (Reply 14):
I think that this announcement made by Walsh is just for warning the pilots that if they don't reach an agreement they will close Iberia down.

I see, I wasn't aware that the pilots hadn't signed yet, which explains a lot, it's clearly about Walsh putting pressure on them.

Quoting mfc (Reply 14):
with the European network reduced drastically they are not able to feed long haul. I think that downsizing the network that much hasn't helped either.

I agree that the downsizing is counterproductive. IB was not an oversized airline in terms of fleet & routes, just simply too high cost. And there is a minimum critical mass needed for a long-haul airline to work. IB risks falling below that critical mass if further cuts occur.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 22033 times:

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 16):
Obviously IAG keeps operate funds to operate their owned airlines, correct? So if IB were to go down the drain, this would have no effect on BA one would imagine?

Do BA have an exit clause? With all the anti-BA MAD demonstrations and the fact that BA is making a profit, I'm surprised that the BA side of IAG is not looking into an exit strategy, because in the end it will effect BA operations and profits.

Each member airline of IAG operates with its own funds and resources so, in theory, Iberia's problems have no effect on BA as far as funding and profits are concerned.

BA is now only a subsidiary of IAG and there is no basis for BA to exercise any exit clauses.

Although the pilots have not reached an agreement with Iberia, IAG say they have had legal advice (as well as conflicting advice) that it doesn't matter as far as the arbitration process was concerned.

As far as Iberia's financial and traffic performance, there should at least be signs over the next few months that things are bottoming out.


User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1737 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21918 times:

It sounds extreme but IAG should liquify Iberia and restart it with a lower costbase and a leaner fleet, concentrating on profitable long haul routes to South America, with Vueling taking over ALL short haul routes out of MAD and BCN.

One big problem at Iberia is the militant unions, who can't see that in order for their jobs to survive they need to make sacrifices, no matter how painful. SAS found itself in that situation a few months ago and it took near collapse to make unions realise they had no choice.

Another issue the airline has is its inferior service and products on all its routes. Passengers notice the lack of PTVs in economy. I would defnitely choose the competition if I knew I had to spend a 12 hour flight staring into space.

I can understand why WW is running out of patience with IB...



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User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 21882 times:

IB needs to cut all non-essential long hauls, replace some service with BA metal, or shed all long hauls completely. Also the short haul service can't compete with vueling.......so unless they change some of their practices, they're gonna go bust. IAG will spin them off and into chapter 7 faster than you can say "tapas."


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User currently offlinemfc From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 21675 times:

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 19):

A330s arrive with new interiors and A346s are under refurbishment, which include state-of-the-art equipment for both classes. They is also a program to improve service, the T4-hub efficiency, punctuality, etc.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):

They have already done that. All routes that has not been suspended is because they are profitable or because they have a reasonable margin to become profitable soon. BA can't operate many of the Iberia's routes because bilateral agreements between countries require a national carrier to operate the routes. Shedding long haul completely will mean the end of Iberia because it is the most lucrative and the most promising sector, Iberia is not Olympic or Malev. Vueling or Iberia Express have limited operations from MAD because Pilot's Union don't let them to expand at MAD. MGMT is trying to change that and negotiations are taking place. If they don't reach an agreement it is obvious that things will turn worse... Iberia needs a vast and profitable short-medium haul network to operate long haul successfully.



So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 21616 times:
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If only BA had acquired BD or more importantly its slots sooner many they would have had more faith in not following AF, LH etc into European mergers.

If I were running BA I would have questioned the positives of the merger.

Mind you that said people blame BA for not grabbing KL when they had the chance but considering AF's problems maybe KL should not have been so fussy about terms. Who regrets it more I wonder ?


User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 21385 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 22):
If I were running BA I would have questioned the positives of the merger.

As was previously mentioned by a number of posters, the purpose of the merger was to get control of the strategic asset which is a MAD hub for the future. This is what they really want rather than IB itself. Investing in IB was just a means to get dominant control of MAD airport.

MAD has had a lot of investment over recent years and is one of few European hubs that has the capacity for large growth potential. All it needs is either IB to be sorted out, or replaced by another IAG controlled airline with the right cost base, product, and customer service, to deliver on MAD's potential.


User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 21200 times:
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Quoting clydenairways (Reply 23):
All it needs is either IB to be sorted out, or replaced by another IAG controlled airline with the right cost base, product, and customer service, to deliver on MAD's potential.

Which will be rejected whole heartedly by the Spanish people. That concept does not work. It has been proven not to.

There is no way a non-Spanish management can liquidate or replace the Spanish national carrier. All hell would break out first no matter what state the airline maybe in.

As mush as I want to see IAG prosper it is down to the Spanish to sort out Spanish aviation and rightly so. The main beneficiary of any future reward to be gained by Spanish based airlines or Spanish airports should be Spain and its economy.


User currently offlinemfc From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 21858 times:

If Iberia was closed down, Air Europa would probably take most IB's traffic rights. They have begun to fly to MVD and have increased frequencies to HAV or SDQ as Iberia has dropped the routes. Air Europa has also requested to move to T4 many times. T4 is not owned by Iberia or IAG, it's government property, so UX could substitute IB at MAD before any IAG airline, which won't do well for IAG nor BA.


So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 21744 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 24):
Which will be rejected whole heartedly by the Spanish people. That concept does not work. It has been proven not to.

There is no way a non-Spanish management can liquidate or replace the Spanish national carrier. All hell would break out first no matter what state the airline maybe in.

As mush as I want to see IAG prosper it is down to the Spanish to sort out Spanish aviation and rightly so. The main beneficiary of any future reward to be gained by Spanish based airlines or Spanish airports should be Spain and its economy.

But it's already started to happen, both Vueling and IB Express are both Spanish, have very low cost bases and are owned by IAG.
IB mainline have hardly any short haul left flown by themselves, it's mostly all done by IBX and Vueling now.
If IB mainline fails to restructure, IAG will just use one of these AOC's to take over long haul ops too.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 22230 times:

An easy way to save many million pound would be to fire the BA management that was responsible for the IB takeover.. I'm sure many families of hard working stuff will loose their income before this happens.

User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 22115 times:
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Quoting clydenairways (Reply 26):
But it's already started to happen, both Vueling and IB Express are both Spanish, have very low cost bases and are owned by IAG.
IB mainline have hardly any short haul left flown by themselves, it's mostly all done by IBX and Vueling now.
If IB mainline fails to restructure, IAG will just use one of these AOC's to take over long haul ops too.

Yes I suppose so. What a mess though !

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 27):
An easy way to save many million pound would be to fire the BA management that was responsible for the IB takeover

BA is profitable against all odds thanks to said management. Keeping secure the income of many hard working staff.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5242 posts, RR: 6
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 22047 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 22):
Who regrets it more I wonder ?

I'd say BA.


If BA had taken KL over I doubt KL would have been allowed to grow as much as it has. Whilst AF is not a greta dance partner they haven't been as bossy as I would have thought BA would have been... which also lead to BA losing SWISS.


User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 21926 times:

Quoting mfc (Reply 25):
If Iberia was closed down, Air Europa would probably take most IB's traffic rights.

I don't think anybody expects IAG to close down IB and replace it with nothing, it could be something similar to what happened with Austrian.
Negotiations on restructuring at Austrian failed, so the Austrian mainline AOC was replaced by the lower cost base Tyrolean AOC under the existing Austrian brand.

So in Iberia's scenario, if restructuring with mainline fails. IAG use either the IBX or Vueling AOC to take over the entire IB network under the Iberia brand name.


User currently offlinecharliecossie From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 479 posts, RR: 9
Reply 31, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 21810 times:

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 19):
IAG should liquify Iberia

An absolute classic. You just made my day much happier. Thanks.  


User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 21774 times:

Quoting anstar (Reply 29):

I'd say BA.


If BA had taken KL over I doubt KL would have been allowed to grow as much as it has.

I think you are right. BA would have loved to get control of the AMS hub. But what you would probably seen is that KLM would have been re-directed away from competing directly with BA.
BA would have had to find a way to run both hubs, without them competing too much with each other.


User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 21028 times:
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Quoting anstar (Reply 29):
I'd say BA.
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 32):
I think you are right.

I would imagine they both regret it.

In my view KL would have survived as an independent carriers and still been the profitable entity that it is today without the problems of AF.

Swissair only went bust because it overstretched itself not because it is financially unsupportable for Switzerland to have an independent de facto national carrier. In fact far from it

BA managed to secure future growth with the acquisition of BD slots and LH is financially very secure independently.

IB in my view are probably best off sorting out their problems for themselves and AF are just weathering a storm others have weathered and emerged solvent and profitable.

Maybe joint business ventures and alliance co-operation should have been the ceiling.

Everything as it stands is just too rigid. Times change.

The United States is a totally different kettle of fish btw.

[Edited 2013-06-21 05:25:21]

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 19998 times:

Quoting mfc (Reply 21):
Iberia is not Olympic or Malev. Vueling or Iberia Express have limited operations from MAD because Pilot's Union don't let them to expand at MAD.
Quoting mfc (Reply 21):
Iberia needs a vast and profitable short-medium haul network to operate long haul successfully.

Here's the primary problem. Unions are putting themselves before their own jobs.....seriously. if IB goes under because of their inability to change their line of business.........well, that's their own fault then, the Unions.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 894 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 19946 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 32):
I think you are right. BA would have loved to get control of the AMS hub. But what you would probably seen is that KLM would have been re-directed away from competing directly with BA.
BA would have had to find a way to run both hubs, without them competing too much with each other.

There are three major reasons why BA/KL did not materialise;

1. To much overlap between the two airlines, their network strengths are very similar - i.e. not complimentary (AF-KL networks are more complimentary to one-another).

2. Proximity between the two hubs, leading to overlap and competition. (though CDG AMS is not much different)

3. The BA leadership demanded too much control over the joint venture, no acceptable balance between the partners. (AF was more sensitive to Dutch pride.)

The positive sides were:

- Cultural match
- Business match
- Financial strength


User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 36, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 19664 times:

I'm not sure talking down a partner, Iberia, is the best or most professional approach. Once people start to lose confidence in a product it is almost impossible to get that confidence back.

BA and Iberia as airlines are as different as chalk and cheese. It was a partnership that could never really been seen as credible or long term. It was a BA gamble.

On a personal note I would never travel with Iberia again. Their horrible, rude, brusque cabin staff and ground crew just ruin any flight. It also now operates as a sad LCC at scheduled airline prices.

I don't want it to disappear but I do wish it could look at itself and change. BA really do need to dump it.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 37, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 19420 times:

Article from a while back about the IB issues and the future of MAD

http://www.02b.com/en/notices/2013/0...will_suffer_a_slow_demise_4000.php



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2089 posts, RR: 3
Reply 38, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 19179 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 36):
I don't want it to disappear but I do wish it could look at itself and change. BA really do need to dump it.

Why can't so many people get that it is not a BA problem; it is not for BA to solve the problems at IB; it is not BA running IB. BA and IB (and soon to be VY) are sister companies, owned by IAG. It is for IAG, under Willie Walsh (who yes, has led BA, but no longer does) to decide what happens with IB if things can't be turned around. The logic for IAG being formed was that IB was to bring to the table across the South Atlantic what BA brings on the North Atlantic. They are not the same airlines, and serve different markets, but that was the purpose of bringing them together under the umbrella of IAG with hubs in LHR (BA > North Atlantic) and MAD (IB > South Atlantic, i.e. Latin America).



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 18743 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 36):
On a personal note I would never travel with Iberia again.

Their network to Latin America is still hard to beat. How many other European carriers serve 13 countries in Latin America?


User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 18673 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 39):
Their network to Latin America is still hard to beat. How many other European carriers serve 13 countries in Latin America?

None, and maybe for a good reason. It is folly to lose money at the expense of saying that "we fly to the most Latin American counties of any European airline". I frankly never found much credibility in that. Generally speaking EU-LA is not as profitable as BA's main feed- EU-NA. I'm sorry but I really do fail to see the lure of an airline like IB (even before they merged).


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 41, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 18412 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 39):
Their network to Latin America is still hard to beat. How many other European carriers serve 13 countries in Latin America?

Part of Iberia's problem is there is more competition and thus they don't dominate anywhere as much as they used to. They may still be just about the leading airline from Europe to LatAm, but other carriers, both European and Latin American have been taking some market share away from Iberia, and shaving its margins.
Competing on price -because we all know that service is not Iberia's forte- is not a good thing for an airline with high costs.

For years, even at the top of the economic bubble, it was said that Iberia lost money on its short haul operations, but its long haul made up for it. There are still 8 long haul routes that are profitable for IB (by their own admission), but clearly the margins, even on the profitable long haul, have been eroding over time.

In fact 2007 was the last year where IB flying operation made any profit.

How many destinations are exclusively served by IB from Europe?
GUA, SAL, SJO are the only ones I can think of.

Take the case of PTY. It used to be exclusive to IB, which it currently serves with 4 weekly frequencies. And yet KLM that started serving i 3 or 4 years ago, it's now a daily operation. Moreover, AF will start service too come November. And more will follow.
That is a picture of what is wrong with IB: In its years of dominance, it clearly did not do much to captivate its passengers. New entrants have instant appeal.

In LIM, AF now serves it, as well as KL. IN BOG, LH started operations a couple of years ago and now has the same frequency and equipment as IB: A daily A340.
That is not to mention the latin carriers. LAN serves MAD from several points in South America. Avianca now dominates the Spain-Colombia market with 3 daily A330 flights to MAD from Colombia, and a 4 weekly service to BCN, when a few years ago it had a single daily 767-200 vs a daily IB A346. Well, IB's offer is the same today.

The main danger that I see, is the denial that some people in Spain about these facts, get in the way of the restructuring needed to bring IB up to a competitive level. As far as many employees are concerned and some in the general public is that IB's ills come from "the English".
Allegedly even the call centre operators try to blame any problems on "BA". Having dealt with them in the past, I can quite believe that level of unprofessionalism.


User currently offlinecv990coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 342 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 18290 times:
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Quoting factsonly (Reply 35):
Quoting factsonly (Reply 35):
There are three major reasons why BA/KL did not materialise;

1. To much overlap between the two airlines, their network strengths are very similar - i.e. not complimentary (AF-KL networks are more complimentary to one-another).

2. Proximity between the two hubs, leading to overlap and competition. (though CDG AMS is not much different)

3. The BA leadership demanded too much control over the joint venture, no acceptable balance between the partners. (AF was more sensitive to Dutch pride.)

The positive sides were:

- Cultural match
- Business match
- Financial strength

Very good analysis. One more positive in my opinion it would have helped BA resolve it's LHR and London runway capacity problems.



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User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 18157 times:
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Quoting cv990coronado (Reply 42):
Very good analysis

maybe but what about...

Quoting factsonly (Reply 35):
- Financial strength

Overall performance has not been great but combine that with relative share price and market cap and it's currently abysmal and we are now some years on from the creation of the merger.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 44, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17677 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 27):
An easy way to save many million pound would be to fire the BA management that was responsible for the IB takeover..

IB was not taken over by BA. They were effectively both brought into IAG ownership when IAG was formed.

International Consolidated Airlines Group is a Spanish registered company whose shares are quoted on both the London and Madrid stock markets. However IAG has its HQ in Madrid. It is a Spanish registered company. So it ie required by Spanish Company Law to hold all shareholders' meetings in Spain. Hence the recent AGM (as well as last year's and next year's) was held in Madrid.

When IAG was formed 55 per cent of its shares were distributed to the previous owners of British Airways shares in proportion to their holding in BA. Holders of Iberia shares received 45 per cent of the equity of IAG again in proportion to their previous holding in IB.

Currently a holding in IAG shares that was converted from BA shares is worth more that the equivalent holding in BA shares just prior to the formation of IAG.

Although not relevant to ownership it is worth noting that BA operations are controlled by a company (BA Ops.co) that is 51 per cent owned by a British company and 49 per cent owned by IAG. However financially BA is a 100 per cent subsidiary of IAG.


User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8114 posts, RR: 53
Reply 45, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 17471 times:

Hilarious that IB think BA are robbing all the profitable parts of the business. Yeah, really? Do you know IB's most profitable route is LHR-JFK? That's right - the codeshares on other airlines make them money. So the perception of the staff* in Spain is the opposite of the truth. Nonetheless there is so much anti-BA sentiment in MAD cos this horrible basket case of an airline can't look in the mirror that the A380 trial flights will be to FRA instead.

God only knows what BA / WW / IAG ever saw in Iberia. Extra routes to Latin America? Pffft - just cos BA have always been weak in that corner of the world and had an inferiority complex about it... How about just increasing capacity from London with BA 747s to a couple of cities and codesharing beyond them on LAN? Why was that - which would have cost nothing - such a bad idea?

* every one of whom I've ever come in contact with in my as-few-as-possible IB flights has been rude and unhelpful



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineEagleboy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1833 posts, RR: 2
Reply 46, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 17306 times:
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Quoting r2rho (Reply 13):
Walsh couldn't care less about IB as an airline, but he does care a lot about their AOC, their bilaterals, and MAD T4.

Indeed....as WW has shown in that past he has no sense of history or nostalgia. Cold hard financial logic drives him.

If he see's an opportunity to close and relaunch Iberia as a different company using the Vueling AOC he will. He will fire and rehire the IB staff if he thinks he will get away with it.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3253 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 17230 times:

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 46):
Indeed....as WW has shown in that past he has no sense of history or nostalgia. Cold hard financial logic drives him.

That's his job, as CEO he knows tens of thousands will be out of work if he messes up. MBA types have to be focussed like a laser beam, nostalgia and history are nice to have in the good times but an unaffordable luxury in the bad times.


User currently offlineseahawk From Germany, joined May 2005, 1049 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16865 times:

IB has so many prolbem.s Today the South American carriers offer a better product than Iberia. LATAM, Avianca and Copa are all strong and well connected. If I had to choose between LH from FRA (or KLM from AMS) and then connect in South America via LATAm or Avianca compared to connect via Madrid, I would always avoid Iberia. The service of Iberia is a joke. I mean Iberia Express serves German airports and everybody knows that the traffic between Spain and Germany is huge, yet they as of today still have no German website. So how to compete with Air Berlin, LH, DE, TUifly and all the others? Vueling has a German website btw.

User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7202 posts, RR: 8
Reply 49, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 16604 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 1):
So why did IAG/BA buy Iberia?
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 2):
The Spanish economy has bombed, their growth has proved to be unsustainable.
Quoting GCT64 (Reply 6):
BA could create a Spanish subsidiary
Quoting seahawk (Reply 10):
Should BA not be able to stop the red ink,
Quoting r2rho (Reply 13):
Walsh couldn't care less about IB as an airline,

Sounds as if BA is in charge, a far different cry from when the merger was announced a few years ago, a pity the search function on a.net is so poor, those threads in the archive are classics.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 16):
Obviously IAG keeps operate funds to operate their owned airlines, correct? So if IB were to go down the drain, this would have no effect on BA one would imagine?

If nothing is consolidated what exactly was the purpose of the merger and how exactly was IAG supposed to benefit, one carrier's is unprofitable, ok, the other is profitable, ok? Somehow I don't think it is that simple, nor as simple as just doing bulk purchases for each carrier.

Quoting babybus (Reply 36):

BA and Iberia as airlines are as different as chalk and cheese. It was a partnership that could never really been seen as credible or long term. It was a BA gamble.

It should also be noted that at the time BA was also having some issues, including but not limited to staff and government implementation of new taxes and BA heavy reliance on premium traffic which had taken a big hit during the GFC.

Now the conspiracy theorist could debate whether the rapid recovery of BA and the continued decline of IB which the merger was supposed to arrest was / is an attempt to eliminate another premium carrier in the EU.......

Quoting VV701 (Reply 44):
IB was not taken over by BA. They were effectively both brought into IAG ownership when IAG was formed.

Someone to put us back on track.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16492 times:

I'm surprised so many find it so difficult to understand.

BA is not "in charge" of Iberia. IAG owns BA and Iberia. IAG has a board of directors made up of former BA and Iberia directors. BA and Iberia have their own boards of directors and their CEOs report to IAG CEO Willie Walsh. Each IAG member airline has its own cash balance and has to raise finance itself. Hence why Iberia has been told by IAG it has to fund its restructuring from its own resources. Cash is upstreamed to IAG by way of dividends.

And remember, just because Iberia is having very public difficulties, it doesn't mean that BA is being given special treatment/an easy ride as the star pupil of the IAG family. BA may have a large number of aircraft orders but IAG has set some very demanding profit targets for BA to meet.

Back to Iberia. Investors have given IAG the benefit of the doubt so far, but IAG will have to show by the end of the year that the worst is over at Iberia and it is on the road to recovery.


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2013 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 16307 times:

It is interesting to look back at the timing of the BA IB merger, as that was when Spain was still booming, indeed the IB managers delivered a great deal for their shareholders, getting 45% of the combined business, because of the problems at BA, such as the pension deficit. Plus getting the company registered in Spain, to show that it wasn't just a BA takeover

If the deal had been conducted 2 years later, after the Spanish economy collapsed, I can't imagine the deal being done in the same way, or even at all...



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 16239 times:
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Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 51):
It is interesting to look back at the timing of the BA IB merger, as that was when Spain was still booming, indeed the IB managers delivered a great deal for their shareholders, getting 45% of the combined business, because of the problems at BA, such as the pension deficit. Plus getting the company registered in Spain, to show that it wasn't just a BA takeover

If the deal had been conducted 2 years later, after the Spanish economy collapsed, I can't imagine the deal being done in the same way, or even at all...

I know...it really sucks if you ask me. I remember thinking at the time BA were selling themselves short !


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 15837 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 45):
Nonetheless there is so much anti-BA sentiment in MAD cos this horrible basket case of an airline can't look in the mirror that the A380 trial flights will be to FRA instead.

I don't know if there's any anti-BA sentiment in MAD, but the anti-IB sentiment around here is doing great....



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User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 54, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15659 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 53):
don't know if there's any anti-BA sentiment in MAD,
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...iberia-staff-protest-spain-layoffs

Quote from above:

"This is a total dismantling of the company by British Airways," said Castro. "They are turning Iberia into a low-cost airline for the benefit of British Airways."


User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15261 times:
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There are probably a thousand reasons why not but could IAG refit IB's long-haul fleet with BA's hard product ?

Would that be beneficial and acceptable ? A place to start ?

Maybe just different fabric colours and names to avoid any fear of encroachment ?

How easy would that be ? No development costs etc etc

I think continuity is the key to success here if MAD is to really be opened up to work in conjunction with LHR and the feeder networks to both gateways.

[Edited 2013-06-24 03:13:33]

User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7605 posts, RR: 3
Reply 56, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 15251 times:

No sure if that would be "politically" acceptable.

Could BA seats with IB covers be an option.

It would also have no impact on the soft product.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7202 posts, RR: 8
Reply 57, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 15223 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 55):
There are probably a thousand reasons why not but could IAG refit IB's long-haul fleet with BA's hard product ?
Quoting 1400mph (Reply 55):
Maybe just different fabric colours and names to avoid any fear of encroachment ?

Remind us again why this was a merger and not a buyout?
If it was a buyout in disguise then fine, but its defenders state its a merger with each side bringing something tangible to the table.
If both arlines are still maintaining some of their identity why does IB identity now have to mirror BA or vice versa, if IB is a Spanish carrier and they are having problems on their home turf, do they look to the UK for a refresh of their identity or within to find something unique to their nation to improve their fortunes?
Take the best from what is out there and fashion it to your environment, usually that is what ends up working in the long run.


User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 15176 times:
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Quoting par13del (Reply 57):
Remind us again why this was a merger and not a buyout?
If it was a buyout in disguise then fine, but its defenders state its a merger with each side bringing something tangible to the table.
If both arlines are still maintaining some of their identity why does IB identity now have to mirror BA or vice versa, if IB is a Spanish carrier and they are having problems on their home turf, do they look to the UK for a refresh of their identity or within to find something unique to their nation to improve their fortunes?
Take the best from what is out there and fashion it to your environment, usually that is what ends up working in the long run.

I don't see the harm in both airlines working together and combining what they are both good at to improve performance.

I talked about continuity and if the boot were on the other foot believe me I would be saying exactly the same thing.

Ever heard the expression 'Pride cometh before a fall'


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7202 posts, RR: 8
Reply 59, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14907 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 58):
I talked about continuity
Quoting 1400mph (Reply 58):
Ever heard the expression 'Pride cometh before a fall'

Both went out the door when both airlines agreed to give up their independence and become "owned" by a third party, so personally, I do not see this as a pride issue.
IB needs to appeal to its customer base, no different than BA appealing to its customer base, if BA product will play well on IB homes turf then fine, time will tell.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 60, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14863 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 54):
"This is a total dismantling of the company by British Airways," said Castro. "They are turning Iberia into a low-cost airline for the benefit of British Airways."

And why is this labeled as anti-BA sentiment? IAG owns both BA and IB. IAG's CEO is BA's former CEO. There's no denying BA is calling the shots.



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User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 61, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14844 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 60):
There's no denying BA is calling the shots.

How do you reach that conclusion? Willie Walsh is no longer a director of BA. And IAG's Chairman and Finance Director are from Iberia.


User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14804 times:
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Quoting UALWN (Reply 60):
And why is this labeled as anti-BA sentiment? IAG owns both BA and IB. IAG's CEO is BA's former CEO. There's no denying BA is calling the shots.


Willie Walsh ......alter ego Slasher Walsh.

That is why BA brought in Mr Walsh and that is why he is IAG's CEO. He may not be popular among the workforce but his methods work. If anyone can turn IB around he can. No one can deny they need to make changes even if only because of outside influences like the Spanish economy. If they don't the result will still be the same. i.e Bust.

Nobody is trying to do make IB do anything that many other legacy airlines have not had to do lately to regain altitude. Including BA.

Also..... he's not English or even British he's Irish.


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 14669 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 36):
I'm not sure talking down a partner, Iberia, is the best or most professional approach. Once people start to lose confidence in a product it is almost impossible to get that confidence back.

That's what I was trying to say in my previous post. Most of the measures demanded by posters here are in fact already in progress, but will not make any tangible effect in just a handful of months. The only thing missing is the pilot's agreement to the turnaround plan. But if you truly want to turn around a company, destroying confidence in it is not a good way to do so.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 40):
It is folly to lose money at the expense of saying that "we fly to the most Latin American counties of any European airline".

IB (since privatisation) has never chased such a market share objective at any cost. In fact, I consider their network to be undersized with respect to its potential. But high cost base and wrong aircraft (the A333's were looong overdue) have kept them from profitably operating routes that should have been no-brainers. The real problem is summed up well by summa767:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 41):
Part of Iberia's problem is there is more competition and thus they don't dominate anywhere as much as they used to. They may still be just about the leading airline from Europe to LatAm, but other carriers, both European and Latin American have been taking some market share away from Iberia, and shaving its margins.

  

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 47):
MBA types have to be focussed like a laser beam, nostalgia and history are nice to have in the good times but an unaffordable luxury in the bad times.

Cold hard numbers are not everything. Knowing how to understand and work with company's culture (even if you intend to change it) is another quality that makes up some managers - but certainly not WW, I agree.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 50):
BA is not "in charge" of Iberia.

Regardless of the legal setup, that is the impression that comes across to a good part of the public, and not only to IB unions. WW = BA for all practical purposes. If IAG wants their public image to match their legal setup, they should work better on their PR.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 14610 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 61):
How do you reach that conclusion?

Let's just say I'm not the only one:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 63):
Regardless of the legal setup, that is the impression that comes across to a good part of the public, and not only to IB unions. WW = BA for all practical purposes. If IAG wants their public image to match their legal setup, they should work better on their PR.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 65, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 14577 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 64):
Let's just say I'm not the only one:


That doesn't answer the question.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 63):
Regardless of the legal setup, that is the impression that comes across to a good part of the public, and not only to IB unions. WW = BA for all practical purposes. If IAG wants their public image to match their legal setup, they should work better on their PR.

IAG is a holding/management company. It's not supposed to have a public image outside of institutional investors. It doesn't need consumer PR.

The pointing of the finger at WW/BA comes from a decision by some to ignore cold hard reality rather than any PR failures on the part of IAG.


User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 14573 times:
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Quoting r2rho (Reply 63):
impression that comes across to a good part of the public, and not only to IB unions. WW = BA for all practical purposes. If IAG wants their public image to match their legal setup, they should work better on their PR.

Pussy-foot in other words.

Not sure if that's a luxury IB (or its management) has time for.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 67, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 14465 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 60):
And why is this labeled as anti-BA sentiment? IAG owns both BA and IB. IAG's CEO is BA's former CEO. There's no denying BA is calling the shots.

Because IAG is a Spanish incorporated company and therefore must act within Spanish Company Law..

Because IAG is domiciled in Spain for taxation purposes.

Because all IAG Annual General Meetings are held in Spain .

Because all IAG Board Meetings are held in Spain.

Because the IAG Chairman of the Board is Antonio Vazquez Romero, the former CEO and Chairman of Iberia.

Because the Board of Directors comprises 14 individuals of whom 6 are British nationals, 6 are Spanish nationals, one is a French national and one an Irish national.

Because both British Airways and Iberia are wholly owned IAG subsidiaries and neither British or Spanish Company Law allows subsidiaries to "wag the dog's tail" or "call the shots". The corporate law of both countries requires that the corporation's Board of Directors - see above - control the corporation and its subsidiaries acting on behalf of and in the best interests of the corporation's shareholders and not in the best interests of one or more of its subsidiary companies.

Because Banco Financiero y de Ahorros, a Spanish bank is the most influential investor in IAG. Its holding (12.1 per cent) is more than twice the size of the next largest holding (5.0 per cent).

It is also worth noting that although the CEO of IAG, Willie Walsh, is the former CEO of British Airways, he is not a British national.


User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1116 posts, RR: 5
Reply 68, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 14185 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 67):
Because Banco Financiero y de Ahorros, a Spanish bank is the most influential investor in IAG. Its holding (12.1 per cent) is more than twice the size of the next largest holding (5.0 per cent).

True, but perhaps not for long. BFA is the primary shareholder in Bankia, which, as everyone knows, is in deep financial restructuring. BFA will need to liquidate its investment in IAG, which has likely been creating 'overhang' on the IAG stock price for a while now.

IB is working hard to restructure its outdated business model, attempting to manage several constituencies, especially labor groups in Spain. Whether these efforts work, or fall victim to a broader strategy, such as having VY assume all IB operations, time will tell. Any measures allowing IB to return to viable profitability would be welcomed by IAG shareholders.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3253 posts, RR: 1
Reply 69, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 14064 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 63):
Cold hard numbers are not everything. Knowing how to understand and work with company's culture (even if you intend to change it) is another quality that makes up some managers - but certainly not WW, I agree.

This was the attitiude that BA had with the militant cabin crew union BASSA for decades until it became literally unmanageable. The reason he was hired by BA from Aer Lingus was his attitude towards the unions. Indeed he used to be a unino negotiator in his younger days as a pilot. This is the reason he was also put in charge of IAG, he's a union buster, not a conciliator. That's the job of his succesor.


User currently offlinefd728 From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 13938 times:

I'm surprised brand recognition isn't mentioned here more often. IMO their image is a major problem, with some of the flying public trying to avoid Iberia.

But as some have stated in several posts above, Iberia is actually investing in improving their on board product. However they need to let the public know that they are improving. They need a total makeover IMHO. New livery with a major add campaign promoting the change that is occuring in the company. Adding A330s and refurbishing A346s with nobody knowing doesn't help the bottom line. They're investing in change, but they need to promote it, too, even if it costs more money. It could eventually pay off.

Furthermore they are on the right path with IBX ex MAD, but their brand appearance is bland and unimaginative. They could pick up momentum by looking over to their Vueling partners and get inspired.

The solutions are so nearby. Learn from Vueling for short haul, and from BA for long haul. Take that as a vision for Gallego and Walsh and wish them good look in promoting it to their fellow staff. Then Iberia is here to stay.

[Edited 2013-06-24 14:06:22]

User currently offlinemfc From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13876 times:

Quoting fd728 (Reply 70):
They need a total makeover IMHO.

A new corporate image and livery were designed and they were pretended to be introduced with the arrival of the A330s, but with the strikes in February they stopped it all, as it wasn't the right moment for that. I think they are waiting for an agreement with pilot's union to introduce the new livery (hopefully a different one, as you may saw in this forum the new one seen in February was uninspiring and boring, very similar to the new Avianca one).

Another sign of change can be seen on their website, they have released a new one few days ago, I think it's different from others and pretty nice.



So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 72, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13547 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 67):
Because all IAG Board Meetings are held in Spain.

Oh yeah, that's truly significative...

IAG's CEO is Walsh, who was BA's CEO prior to the merger. Just like AF/KL's CEO Is Spinetta, who was AF's CEO prior to the merger. Does anybody here deny that AF calls the shots in AF/KL? No. Then, why do you deny the obvious when discussing IAG?



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User currently offlinesierra3tango From Bahrain, joined Mar 2013, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13485 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 72):

IAG's CEO is Walsh, who was BA's CEO prior to the merger. Just like AF/KL's CEO Is Spinetta, who was AF's CEO prior to the merger. Does anybody here deny that AF calls the shots in AF/KL? No. Then, why do you deny the obvious when discussing IAG?

Yes Spinetta is the CEO of the combined AF/KLM group, the previous CEO of AF and a Frenchman to boot.

The same sort of arrangement has to be made in any sort of merger / takeover, whether it be airline or any other type of business. Think of UA/CO, DL/NW & AA/US someone had to take charge as CEO, its usually balanced by at least one or two of CFO / COO / Chairman etc coming from the 'other side'. It appears that is exactly what happened at IAG

Walsh is the CEO of IAG was CEO of BA but is Irish (an ex CEO of Aer Lingus), why should he prefer BA to the detriment of IB he's ultimately in charge of making both airlines profitable; if he prefers BA over IB and so makes IB unprofitable he's failed in his job, probably failed in getting (or greatly reduced) his bonus / pension payments and reduced his chances of a 'big' job when he moves on. It doesn't make sense for him to act in such a way.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 74, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13478 times:

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 73):
Walsh is the CEO of IAG was CEO of BA but is Irish

But who on earth cares that he's Irish, for God's sake?! He could be from Senegal, for all I care! He comes from the BA side of things, and he is in charge.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 73):
why should he prefer BA to the detriment of IB

He has a strategy, and that strategy is clear: downsize IB, lead it towards virtual disappearance, and try to keep Madrid's T4, since LHR is slot constrained. He probably believes this is the best strategy for IAG as a whole, which it may be. But IB's employees have a right to be furious about this, and to blame it on Walsh and BA.



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User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7605 posts, RR: 3
Reply 75, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13434 times:

Seems little point is largely destroying IB, and then spending more money to expand BA.

To start with, IB should be the lead member to South America, given past links to that area.

Also links from Spain to Southern Europe and North Africa would make much more sense than basing BA metal in Spain. In fact, I would expect that BA would only move aircraft to MAD for routes between the UK and MAD.

Beyond the obvious, links between Spain and North America or elsewhere would make more sense than going via LHR.

IMO, you are getting far to hooked up on his past career.

It is not uncommon for large companies in all sectors to come from abroad. Just as one example, the CEO of a major British Bank, (and the former CEO of another) comes from Spain.

Also, not only was an Irishman, (and former CEO of Aer Lingus and of a Spanish airline, iirc it was called Futura) appointed as CEO of BA. A previous CEO was also Australian.

The only difference is that this is not viewed in the same way in the UK.


User currently offlinesierra3tango From Bahrain, joined Mar 2013, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13364 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 74):
But who on earth cares that he's Irish, for God's sake?! He could be from Senegal, for all I care! He comes from the BA side of things, and he is in charge.

Well yes only because he has the support of his Board of Directors (all of whom have a duty of care). The Board is not all BA, far from it, if Walsh was so biased (ie expunge IB to BA benefit) he'd lose Board support & therefore his job (& pay / benefits / bonus / pension)

Quoting UALWN (Reply 74):
He has a strategy, and that strategy is clear: downsize IB, lead it towards virtual disappearance, and try to keep Madrid's T4, since LHR is slot constrained. He probably believes this is the best strategy for IAG as a whole, which it may be. But IB's employees have a right to be furious about this, and to blame it on Walsh and BA.

'He' is the CEO, (dependent on his mandate from the Board), he has to get 'his' plans approved by the IAG Board; they can vote no & overrule him if they so wish.

"to blame it on Walsh and BA"
Not that I empathise with the argument but why not blame it on 'Walsh and BA' why not 'Walsh and IAG'.

Anyway BA have got more slots at LHR than they can deal with right now after the IAG / BMI takeover with 'slot sitters'
to places like LBA & ROT etc. abounding.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 77, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13415 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 72):
Then, why do you deny the obvious when discussing IAG?

As far as I know, IAG has a different structure to AF/KLM.

IAG is a separate entity. It has its own board of directors, its own management and staff, and its own offices. IAG is not BA.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 74):
He has a strategy, and that strategy is clear: downsize IB, lead it towards virtual disappearance, and try to keep Madrid's T4, since LHR is slot constrained. He probably believes this is the best strategy for IAG as a whole, which it may be. But IB's employees have a right to be furious about this, and to blame it on Walsh and BA.

It would be a curious strategy to merge two airlines and downsize one taking extremely heavy accounting charges and losses in the process.

Blaming it all on Walsh and BA is an irrational and emotional response. There are many things you can say about Willie Walsh but he ultimately driven by an entirely rational approach that airline industry needs to cover its cost of capital and deliver financial returns.


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3585 posts, RR: 3
Reply 78, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 13300 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 57):
If it was a buyout in disguise then fine, but its defenders state its a merger with each side bringing something tangible to the table.
If both arlines are still maintaining some of their identity why does IB identity now have to mirror BA or vice versa,

Its all very well maintaining identity, but their has to be consistency as well.
Livery: BA has theits as does IB, to me both reflect National identity and should remain
Hard product, when booking a flight with IAG you should receive within reason the same seating arrangement regardless of airline, yes as products evolve you will always get differences, BA have two generations of First presently plus two generations of Clubworld, but one is just an update of the other, meanwhile if you fly IB its a totalyl different business class seat.
Catering This should reflect the national identity, but the offering should be on the same terms, you can't have one route operated by both carriers with one offering catering and the other not.
Staff There have been lots of comments in the past about the "bitter old queens" of BA, their influence seems to be waning along with that of their union BASSA, IB needs to go the same way, reports of the attitude of some gives the impression that they have difficulty understanding customer service.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 74):
He has a strategy, and that strategy is clear: downsize IB, lead it towards virtual disappearance, and try to keep Madrid's T4,

Why would this be the strategy ? It would write off IAG's huge investment in IB. In reality the strategy is no different to that which WW's predecessors enacted at BA, reduce the network by axing routes that show little signs of ever being profitable, then rationalise costs to create a stable profitable ongoing airline.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 79, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 13119 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 72):
Does anybody here deny that AF calls the shots in AF/KL? No. Then, why do you deny the obvious when discussing IAG?

Because comparing Groupe-Air France with International Consolidated Airlines Groupe SA is totally irrelevant.

Air France BOUGHT KLM on 5 May 2004 by issuing 11 Air France shares and 11 Air France warrants to KLM shareholders for every 10 KLM shares that they held. Air France shareholders simply retained their existing shares. This gave former KLM shareholders 19 per cent of the enlarged company that was renamed Groupe-Air France KLM. The other shareholders were the French government (44 per cent) and former institutional and private shareholders in the pre-acquisition Air France (37 per cent). [Note: In September 2004 the French government reduced its shareholding effectively relinquishing control and privatising the Groupe.]

Clearly as Air France purchased KLM and British Airways did not purchase Iberia - see my earlier Reply - to suggest that the AF / KL structural and inter-subsidiary relationship has any relevance at all to the BA / IB structural and inter-subsidiary relationship is totally mistaken and totally irrelevant. To say they are the same is almost like saying that the UK and Spain are both in the EU so the currency of both must be the Euro.

The Board of Directors of Groupe-Air France KLM comprises 15 individuals. Unlike the Board of IAG, there is no balance between nationalities. Only four, Leo M. van Wijk (Deputy Chief Executive Officer and Vice Chairman Air France-KLM), Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, Peter Hartman (President and Chief Executive Officer of KLM) and Cornelis van Lede are Dutch. The significant majority (the remaining 11) are all French.

Clearly Groupe-Air France KLM is a French company with a mainly French Board of Directors that has significant Dutch subsidiary. IAG is a Spanish registered but operationally international company with British and Spanish subsidiaries. To deny this simply denies the differences in the corporate structures and the make-up of the membership of the controlling Boards of Directors of the two groups and the differences in make up of shareholders with the still substantial French government holding of 18.6 per cent in Groupe-Air France KLM .


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 80, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13027 times:

The legal structure might be different, but the reality is the same: 55% of IAG shares went to BA's stock holders, vs 45% for IB's. BA's then CEO became IAG's CEO. For all purposes, this was a merger between BA and IB leaving BA on top, no matter how you spin it.

I'm, of course, not privy to Walsh's strategy concerning IB. Neither is any of you. But, seen from here, what I wrote before is exactly what it looks like. God only knows what he intends to do now with VY, which has become vital to my home airport, BCN, after IB all but abandoned it. But many here are really worried. Now, you may say that VY is making money. But so was IB before the merger...



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User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7605 posts, RR: 3
Reply 81, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12965 times:

Given that BA has no LCC arm, I fail to see why VY will be affected.

User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 82, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12945 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 81):
Given that BA has no LCC arm, I fail to see why VY will be affected.

Oh, VY will be affected, one way or another. I'm not saying it will be slowly dismantled, à la IB. That wouldn't make much sense. But it may be "realigned" or whatever. Walsh wanted to have absolute control of VY. IB's 49% share of VY wasn't enough. It must be for a reason.



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User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12886 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 80):

I think you should read the IAG legally binding merger documents.

I've just spent the last 20 minutes just breezing through, and half the stuff you are spouting is just tabloid sensationalism

As for Willie Walsh dictating down to Iberia management...

It is expected that the Board of Directors of IAG will be able to
issue recommendations to the Boards of Iberia Operadora and
British Airways. Before issuing a recommendation, IAG will
consult with the Board (or Chairman or Chief Executive Officer) of
Iberia Operadora and of British Airways, as appropriate. Subject to
their fiduciary duties as directors, the Directors of Iberia Operadora
and of British Airways shall be required to vote in accordance with
any recommendation made by the Board of IAG, provided that
such recommendations are not contrary to the Assurances.

I read that as saying - IAG can make recommendations, but at the end of the day, it still has to voted on by Iberia's board of directors.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 818 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12802 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 80):
Now, you may say that VY is making money. But so was IB before the merger...

IB was making profits before the economic crisis and has not ridden the Spanish economic storm well and has made significant losses - including hefty one off provisions in respect of actions taken to turn the airlines fortunes round .

VY is, despite European economic problems, still making profits

So two quite different scenarios which require quite different strategies from the IAG and operating company boards. I would have thought that VY can only stand to gain from the IB and the BA short haul profitability issues [ or should I say lack of profit issues].


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 85, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12739 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 80):
God only knows what he intends to do now with VY, which has become vital to my home airport, BCN, after IB all but abandoned it.

Vueling will only continue doing well. So all that worrying is for nothing.
In fact, if anything, Vueling might replace some BA's services from LGW, that might compete better on some routes against EasyJet and now Norwegian.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 80):
ow, you may say that VY is making money. But so was IB before the merger...

Iberia has historic losses the year before the merger. That is a fact!
It is also a fact that Iberia has not made any profit from transport of passengers since 2007. It's all in the books!
I know that, like you, many people have their head in the sand, but it is only a matter of objective analysis to see reality.


User currently onlinegoosebayguy From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 12632 times:

There is a reason for the term 'Spanish Practices' being named after Spain. I believe IB to be full of them which is the main reason for the high cost base. If IAG can remove them and show the workforce they will not have a job unless they make sacrifices then IB will become history. IB is only surviving in its present form because BA is supporting their losses.

User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5242 posts, RR: 6
Reply 87, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 12570 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 80):
Now, you may say that VY is making money. But so was IB before the merger...

And So were probably most spanish business before the economic downturn. times have changes since the merger and and unfortunately the IB workforce fail to see this - at their own peril.


User currently offlinekaneporta1 From Greece, joined May 2005, 740 posts, RR: 12
Reply 88, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12404 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 82):
Walsh wanted to have absolute control of VY. IB's 49% share of VY wasn't enough. It must be for a reason.

Because unlike IB, VY is profitable and can grow. Why have 49% of the profits when you can have 100%?



I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 89, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 12158 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 83):
I've just spent the last 20 minutes just breezing through, and half the stuff you are spouting is just tabloid sensationalism

Really? Care to point out which part?

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 83):
the Directors of Iberia Operadora
and of British Airways shall be required to vote in accordance with
any recommendation made by the Board of IAG
Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 83):
I read that as saying - IAG can make recommendations, but at the end of the day, it still has to voted on by Iberia's board of directors.

Well, maybe you need to brush up your reading comprehension, since that text above says quite unambiguously that IB is required to follow IAG's dictates.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 85):
It is also a fact that Iberia has not made any profit from transport of passengers since 2007.

IB booked a profit every year since 1995 until the merger in 2011, with the only exception of 2009. These are the facts, which you now can twist in any way it suits you, as you have tried to do in the past.



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User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 12123 times:
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Quoting UALWN (Reply 89):
IB booked a profit every year since 1995 until the merger in 2011, with the only exception of 2009. These are the facts, which you now can twist in any way it suits you, as you have tried to do in the past.

Do you have anything else to support your 'conspiracy' theory (because that's what it is) because the fact that IB has failed to make a profit could be down to any number of things.

None of the major European airline groupings are exactly booming at the moment. IB's financial woes are not unique to it.

Maybe the enormous ripple effect of the formation of IAG has adversely impacted Air France-KLM and LH group too ?

Why don't you run with that ? Blame something else on Willie Walsh !


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 91, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 12021 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 82):

Oh, VY will be affected, one way or another. I'm not saying it will be slowly dismantled, à la IB. That wouldn't make much sense.

Oh dear. So you think IB is being slowly dismantled because it does make some sense.

Here you are wrong again. IB is not being slowly dismantled despite the actions and attitudes of the pilots' union. Supported by the operating profit of its sister, BA, IB is being given the opportunity to adapt to the very significant changes in the Spanish economy over the last few years and, in particular, how they have impacted Spanish air travel.

I am sure that neither you nor the pilots' union attribute the April Spanish unemployment level of over 29 per cent (with youth unemployment at 57 per cent) entirely to BA. But I am surprised that you are in denial that in an economy with such a high level of unemployment air travel can go on exactly as it did before. Do you really think that the recent poor IB performance is not explained by this and then exacerbated by the intransigence of the pilots' union?

When this sort of economic situation arises those that do not have to travel do not. Those that must travel will seek the cheapest possible flights. The likes of FR and VH benefit. The likes of IB and BA, unless they quickly adapt, suffer. This happened to BA more than a decade ago. The adjustment was painful. Amongst the most obvious of many necessary adjustments were those to their fleet. Many of their 180 seat 752s was quickly retired. A319s then furbished with 126 seats replaced those retired aircraft.

I am sorry. IB simply cannot try to ignore the difficulties in the Spanish economy and survive. Please do get real.


User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 885 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11941 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 2):

Quoting comorin (Reply 1):
So why did IAG/BA buy Iberia? What changed?

The Spanish economy has bombed,

Their economy was already seriously tanking by 2010, and yet the merger went ahead, so I do wonder if there always was a sneaky masterplan with this.



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlinebongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3585 posts, RR: 3
Reply 93, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11917 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 92):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 2):

Quoting comorin (Reply 1):
So why did IAG/BA buy Iberia? What changed?

The Spanish economy has bombed,

Their economy was already seriously tanking by 2010, and yet the merger went ahead, so I do wonder if there always was a sneaky masterplan with this.

In 2010 the National Govts and bankers assured us that they had taken appropriate action and the worst was over, we now know that each crisis has been followed by another one. The other factor is that when 2 companies engage in merger talks they normally sign agreements whereby if one side breaks off the talks they have to pay the other one compensation. I don't know if this was true in this instance, but it does make it financially difficult to walk away. Lastly if you have spent years convincing investors that a merger between BA & IB is the way forward, if you back out they then wonder if the senior management are the right people to take the company forward.


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 94, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11845 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 89):
IB booked a profit every year since 1995 until the merger in 2011, with the only exception of 2009.

Please note that 2009 was before the merger. Not only did Iberia book a loss then, but it was a historical huge loss.
So your argument is flawed as has been proven before.
It is also worth noting that Iberia has not booked a profit from transport (flying pax and cargo) since 2007!
If it avoided going into net losses some years was through asset selling (stakes in Amadeus), share of vueling profits and maintenance division. Not enough to cover the big dip once the bubble imploded.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 93):
n 2010 the National Govts and bankers assured us that they had taken appropriate action and the worst was over, we now know that each crisis has been followed by another one

Indeed, and Spain in particular seemed as it was going to escape lightly. After all, it actually had a surplus in its national accounts (that was used up in an effort to prop up the economy, but that was like trying to revive a corpse), That year saw 2 quarters of growth and not many anticipated how the cookie would really crumble.

[Edited 2013-06-26 09:52:54]

User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 95, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11745 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 90):
Do you have anything else to support your 'conspiracy' theory (because that's what it is) because the fact that IB has failed to make a profit could be down to any number of things.

Uh? There is no "conspirancy" theory. I was just exposing facts. And I didn't even start the discussion about IB's profits, or lack thereof.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 91):
IB is not being slowly dismantled despite the actions and attitudes of the pilots' union.

IB is being slowly dismantled. And the pilots union, if anything, is trying to oppose the dismantlement.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 91):
I am sure that neither you nor the pilots' union attribute the April Spanish unemployment level of over 29 per cent (with youth unemployment at 57 per cent) entirely to BA.

Check your numbers. The official statistical rate in April was 27%, not 29. And it is greatly overstated, for at least two reasons: a still prevalent underground economy, and the fact that a larger than anywhere else fraction of women are in the job market. Real unemployment rate is below 20% Large, huge, but not 27% (or 29%). By coincidence, or not, the rate computed not though polls, which is how the 27% is obtained, but by counting real people who go to the unemployment offices, is more like 21%.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 91):
Do you really think that the recent poor IB performance is not explained by this and then exacerbated by the intransigence of the pilots' union?

I really don't see what the pilots have to do with anything. Neither do I see any intransigence in their actions. Maybe you could enlighten us.



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User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1924 posts, RR: 21
Reply 96, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11671 times:

Unless the Spanish economy starts to improve markedly in the coming months, I can't see IB's situation improving much. I think the most realistic and likely option will be an absorption a la Tyrolean as others have mentioned, I think the improving situation at OS is probably making this an increasingly attractive option to IAG executives.

User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 97, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 11341 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 67):
Banco Financiero y de Ahorros, a Spanish bank is the most influential investor in IAG. Its holding (12.1 per cent) is more than twice the size of the next largest holding (5.0 per cent).

Not any longer. BFA-Bankia has liquidated its stake in IAG:

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1372268867_345219.html



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User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 98, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11163 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 97):
BFA-Bankia has liquidated its stake in IAG:

Thanks!

Banco Financiero y de Ahorros' is forced to sell some of its realisable assets because of its very deep financial problems. And those problems have exactly the same root cause as do IB's very deep financial problems. And neither company's problems have anything to do with BA except for the very reasonable price that BFA got for their IAG shares. It was fractionally above 3 euros a share. So they made a profit of 160 million euros on the deal.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 99, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11152 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 98):
And those problems have exactly the same root cause as do IB's very deep financial problems.

Bankia's problems have to do with the real estate collapse in Spain, and with the meddling of regional politicians in this semi-public bank. How is that related to IB?

But, in any case, the point is that now all the largest shareholders of IAG are British funds of several sorts.

[Edited 2013-06-27 07:50:42]


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User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11144 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 89):

No it doesn't

It is expected that the Board of Directors of IAG will be able to issue recommendations

Which is far from "Dictates" as you said, which means...

"To prescribe or lay down authoritatively; command unconditionally"

But if IAG dictates then why must they...

"Before issuing a recommendation, IAG will consult with the Board (or Chairman or Chief Executive Officer) of
Iberia Operadora and of British Airways, as appropriate."

If its still dictating down to Iberia why must the Iberia Board must vote

Directors of Iberia Operadora and of British Airways shall be required to vote in accordance with any recommendation made by the Board of IAG.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 101, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11150 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 100):
Directors of Iberia Operadora and of British Airways shall be required to vote in accordance with any recommendation made by the Board of IAG.

Do you understand what does "shall be required to vote in accordance with any recommendation made by the board of IAG" mean? It means they have no saying in the matter.



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User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 102, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11250 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 101):

So there is only one choice on the vote?

It's still a choice and not a dictatorship, as you said



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 103, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11193 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 102):
It's still a choice and not a dictatorship, as you said

Look, we've wasted enough time on this. Re-read the whole thing again and draw your own conclusions:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 83):
It is expected that the Board of Directors of IAG will be able to
issue recommendations to the Boards of Iberia Operadora and
British Airways. Before issuing a recommendation, IAG will
consult with the Board (or Chairman or Chief Executive Officer) of
Iberia Operadora and of British Airways, as appropriate. Subject to
their fiduciary duties as directors, the Directors of Iberia Operadora
and of British Airways shall be required to vote in accordance with
any recommendation made by the Board of IAG, provided that
such recommendations are not contrary to the Assurances.



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User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11142 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 103):

I did.

But the fact of the matter is.

IAG makes recommendations to the the boards of BA and IB and those boards have to vote either to accept, reject or take it under further advisement.


It comes down to the facts.

The Spanish economy is on life support with 27% unemployment (The Economist Figures June 2013)

IB's product is hit and miss, but mainly miss.

Staff are/were on very generous state owned airline benefits and salaries.

Unions fighting to keep uneconomic working practices


So it seems IB and its staff/Unions who keep on striking are doing the most harm than Willie Walsh/IAG could or would ever do.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 105, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11034 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 99):
Bankia's problems have to do with the real estate collapse in Spain, and with the meddling of regional politicians in this semi-public bank. How is that related to IB?

If you as an individual find yourself in negative equity - after the real estate collapse owing more than your property is now worth - the first thing you are not going to do is rush out and splurge money on a flight to take a holiday that you can no longer afford.

If you worked in the construction industry and, because the real estate collapse, your employer is forced into bankruptcy, the first thing you are unlikely to do is to rush out and spend your unemployment pay on travel that you can no longer afford simply because you have nothing better to do.

If you work for Banco Financiero y de Ahorros and are already or might be one of the 6,000 employees it has or will make redundant following the real estate collapse, or if you are one of the legions of other Spaniards who have lost their jobs - despite your protestations to the contrary Spanish unemployment rate in the first quarter of 2013 was officially given at 27.2 per cent - one of the last things that you are likely to think of doing is spending your unemployment pay of an IB flight. If you have to travel you will be looking more towards FR or VH.

If . . .

I could go on. The financial crisis in Spain and elsewhere has its origins in the bursting of the real estate bubble and the resulting impact on those banks that financed that bubble. Then the domino effect impacted many other sections of the effected economies. Yes. Banking and construction were hardest hit. But few sections of the Spanish and, indeed, many other economies have been left entirely unscathed by the resulting recession.

To blame BA for IB's problems when Spain is experiencing such a severe financial and employment crisis is simply denial of the worst kind. Tragically denial is only likely to prolong IB's problems. The real issues simply must be addressed and quickly.

Today the Spanish problem is the availability of credit to commerce and industry, particularly to small and medium sized businesses, at anything like reasonable interest rates. As a part of a large international even if Spanish registered company this may not impact an IB recovery as it may well many other Spanish companies in many industrial and commercial market segments provided the real issues are addressed.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 106, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 10851 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 104):
IAG makes recommendations to the the boards of BA and IB and those boards have to vote either to accept, reject or take it under further advisement.

If you don't understand what's plainly written in that document, there's nothing more I can do.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 104):
Staff are/were on very generous state owned airline benefits and salaries.

"were" is the key word in that sentence. IB was privatized 12 years ago.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 105):

All this is very nice, but has nothing to do with your original assertion. Bankia's collapse and IB's losses have nothing to do with each other, and don't even have a common root cause. Banks like Santander, BBVA, Caixabank, Sabadell, etc. went through the same real estate bust and survived it oh so happily. Bankia didn't because of poor management and political meddling. Air Europa went though the same economical crisis as IB, and are doing reasonably well. Why? Probably because they are better managed than IB, which is effectively managed by IAG. IB could be even worse managed, of course, as JK's demise makes painfully clear.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinekaneporta1 From Greece, joined May 2005, 740 posts, RR: 12
Reply 107, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 10757 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 106):
All this is very nice, but has nothing to do with your original assertion. Bankia's collapse and IB's losses have nothing to do with each other

Talking about not seeing the big picture! IB's fares and cost structures are just too high to be sustainable in this economic environment. This has to change in order for IB to be profitable. And just like with BA a couple of years ago, unfortunately, people will have to go, unprofitable routes and services will need to be cut and so will salaries. And this has nothing to do with who's at the helm.



I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10636 times:
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Quoting UALWN (Reply 106):
Why? Probably because they are better managed than IB, which is effectively managed by IAG

You know as well as I that the actions needed to turn IB around will and have been met by intense opposition from IB staff.

The process is not going to happen overnight. Maybe you should consider this....

IB's other half British Airways survived and is prospering after catastrophic terrorism and economic armageddon that decimated its core business, Ryanair, Easyjet, Virgin Atlantic and Emirates and its peers.

British civil aviation has been an absolute dog fight and blood bath compared to the rest of Europe over the past 15 years. Even now continental European major carriers relatively speaking are just starting to feel the impact of a changing environment. IB is by far the most exposed to theses changes.

If anyone has the experience and skill to help IB it is that management you are so critical of.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 109, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10572 times:

Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 107):
IB's fares and cost structures are just too high to be sustainable in this economic environment.

Thair fares are too high? Where did you get that from?

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 108):
IB's other half British Airways survived and is prospering after catastrophic terrorism and economic armageddon that decimated its core business, Ryanair, Easyjet, Virgin Atlantic and Emirates and its peers.

BA dealing with catastrophic terrorism? What about IB??



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User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10550 times:
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Quoting UALWN (Reply 109):
BA dealing with catastrophic terrorism? What about IB??

' core business '

New York City - second biggest global financial hub.

London - biggest global financial hub.

9/11, 7/7

The rest I will let you work out for yourself.

[Edited 2013-06-28 01:22:42]

User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 894 posts, RR: 0
Reply 111, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10471 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 108):
British civil aviation has been an absolute dog fight and blood bath compared to the rest of Europe over the past 15 years.

May I just remind that you that 'the rest of Europe' is not as anti-competitive as you may think:

1. The UK-NL bilateral 'OpenSkies' agreement dates from 1986.
2. The first USA liberalized air transport agreement was concluded with the Netherlands in 1992
3. First new pricing mechanisms: Country of origin disapproval was agreed with the Netherlands
4. In 1992 the Netherlands was the USA first strategic partner to fully liberalize market access
5. The backdrop was KLM ownership of Northwest
6. In 1993 Liberalization supplemented by first case of anti-trust immunity conferred to KLM/Northwest

On 5 November 2002: European Court of Justice ruled its Open Skies Judgments against Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Austria and Germany and UK !!

The UK - at that time - was still supporting a highly restrictive Bermuda II.


User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 10396 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 106):

You should be a IB union negotiator.


I don't agree with what you say, but I think Willie Walsh should start dictating down to IB, as it sails down the proverbial creek with no paddles.


http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=240949&p=irol-regulatory

Here's a link to the merger documents, Spend 30 minutes reading them, then hopefully you realise it isn't the big stitch up conspiracy theory you think it is.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 10359 times:
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Quoting factsonly (Reply 111):
May I just remind that you that 'the rest of Europe' is not as anti-competitive as you may think:

1. The UK-NL bilateral 'OpenSkies' agreement dates from 1986.
2. The first USA liberalized air transport agreement was concluded with the Netherlands in 1992
3. First new pricing mechanisms: Country of origin disapproval was agreed with the Netherlands
4. In 1992 the Netherlands was the USA first strategic partner to fully liberalize market access
5. The backdrop was KLM ownership of Northwest
6. In 1993 Liberalization supplemented by first case of anti-trust immunity conferred to KLM/Northwest

On 5 November 2002: European Court of Justice ruled its Open Skies Judgments against Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Austria and Germany and UK !!

The UK - at that time - was still supporting a highly restrictive Bermuda II.

Bully for the Netherlands but let's face it without those developments you list the Netherlands wouldn't have had much of an aviation industry. All rather necessary and certainly not altruistic ( in fact the total opposite) by any stretch of the imagination !!!

Paints it all in rather a different light I'd say compared to the markets of Germany and France ?

N.B - there are reasons why airlines from Germany, France and the Netherlands were permitted legally to form joint ventures with U.S airlines way before the United Kingdoms' major player. Don't talk to me about Europe being competitive !

[Edited 2013-06-28 04:15:48]

[Edited 2013-06-28 04:16:42]

User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 114, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 10247 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 24):
All it needs is either IB to be sorted out, or replaced by another IAG controlled airline with the right cost base, product, and customer service, to deliver on MAD's potential.

Which will be rejected whole heartedly by the Spanish people. That concept does not work. It has been proven not to.

'Right cost base' is the key. I think it has been proven that convenience and good prices can work wonderfully well. Do you know that the first Spanish airline is... Ryanair? (2012, FR: 30% pax and up, IB: 15% and falling, Vueling: 14% and up, Easyjet: 13% and up). These days people don't care really about the old-days worries about flag carriers etc. Maybe here, on A.net, but not the general public. There are too many things to fix Spain. Do you know that some local authorities have decided to open the schools all along the summer because there are children whose only proper meal is the one they are getting at the school canteen?

Quoting babybus (Reply 36):
It also now operates as a sad LCC at scheduled airline prices

Well said. Not only Ryanair and Easyjet are growing and are extremely popular. New high speed train lines are still being opened, the last one Madrid-Alicante, and train fares are being reduced. Lately IB prices have increased, me thinks (and they have even changed their old webpage, which was convenient, by a new one, confusing, full of crap)



A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 10213 times:
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Quoting spantax (Reply 114):
These days people don't care really about the old-days worries about flag carriers etc. Maybe here, on A.net, but not the general public.

IB is representative of Spain on the international stage. I think you will find there is a little more kudos attached to long-haul air travel than there is to short-haul low cost. However much the LCC's DELUDE themselves that there is not.

That's why every single long-haul full service scheduled carrier in the world has some reference to it's country of origin in either its name or aircraft livery.

Be it American this or Singapore that or the presence of the union jack on VS's livery etc etc


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 116, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10023 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 106):
All this is very nice, but has nothing to do with your original assertion. Bankia's collapse and IB's losses have nothing to do with each other, and don't even have a common root cause.

A single word comes to mind. Ostrich.

Below is a extract from:

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...ain-s-recession-easing/725374.html

'Spain's economy shrank by 0.5 per cent on a quarterly basis in the first three months of 2013. The government is predicting a 1.3-per cent economic decline this year and a slow recovery in 2014.'

So Spain is still in recession. And the Spanish government is forecasting a continuation of the recession through the rest of this year. Yet we are asked to believe that IB is impervious to this poor performance of the Spanish economy and 27.2 per cent first quarter unemployment. Instead we are asked to believe it is all big, bad BA's fault even though in their last (2010) Annual Report IB reported that more than 35 per cent of their income (1,689 million euros in a total of 4,770 million euros) was derived from domestic flights.

Hopefully someone will get real. If the diagnosis of IB's problems is so very wrong, the remedy will be equally wrong. And then the resulting prognosis will be a disaster for IB and all its employees. Shooting yourself in the foot is relatively mild to what IB employees are doing to themselves.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 117, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9722 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 110):
' core business '

New York City - second biggest global financial hub.

London - biggest global financial hub.

9/11, 7/7

Madrid- IB's one oan only hub.
3/11

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 110):
The rest I will let you work out for yourself.

Same here.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 112):
I think Willie Walsh should start dictating down to IB

He's been doing that since day 1.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 116):
'Spain's economy shrank by 0.5 per cent on a quarterly basis in the first three months of 2013. The government is predicting a 1.3-per cent economic decline this year and a slow recovery in 2014.'

What on earth does this have to do with Bankia's collapse in 2012, which was the point of discussion?

Quoting VV701 (Reply 116):
nstead we are asked to believe it is all big, bad BA's fault even though in their last (2010) Annual Report IB reported that more than 35 per cent of their income (1,689 million euros in a total of 4,770 million euros) was derived from domestic flights.

You forgot to mention that IB was profitable in 2010.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 116):
If the diagnosis of IB's problems is so very wrong, the remedy will be equally wrong.

My diagnosis is irrelevant to IB. Walsh's diagnosis and remedies are what's relevant. Since he effectively took over IB, the company is doing worse and worse, with no improvement in sight. What does this say about him? I see two options. He's doing this on purpose, in order to dismantle IB and use MAD's T4 for BA's expansion. Or he's just incompetent. Remember that this is the same guy who pushed for BA-IB's merger in 2009 and 2010 (the merger was completed in 2011), when it was very clear to everybody that the Spanish real estate bubble had imploded (in 2007), and that the country was headed for a recession.



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User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9544 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 117):

So you attend every board meeting at IAG then? Supposition or fact?



It doesn't matter how many figures you pump out IB is completely untenable in its current form. It has never made a profit it has only ever been utilised as a national carrier investment opportunity as many investors, rightly, believed that the Spanish Government wouldn't let it fail.

Iberia is deep in the mire. Until now there has never been any attempt at modernisation of working practices, no attempt at re-organising management structures and even less attempt at rationalising employee productivity.

Operating profit/loss for the last 5 years according to Iberia's financial statements:
Figures in brackets indicate loss.
2008 - 5 million
2009 - (475 million)
2010 - (3 million)
2011 - (475 million)

So where does this mysterious 2010 profit come from?
Those figure above are from an IB PDF presenation.

Over twenty years ago under Lord King BA went through this sort of cost cutting, at the time it hurt, but BA has emerged as a competitive airline.

Iberia needs the same sort of radical changes to survive I feel for the people who will suffer the job losses especially as Spain is going through very hard times but this reorganization should have started years ago, but let down my poor management.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineKD5MDK From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 119, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9377 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 115):
That's why every single long-haul full service scheduled carrier in the world has some reference to it's country of origin in either its name or aircraft livery.

United
Delta
Jet
Asiana


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 120, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 9316 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 118):
So you attend every board meeting at IAG then? Supposition or fact?

It's his job, you see? So I'm assuming he does it.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 118):
It has never made a profit it has only ever been utilised as a national carrier investment opportunity as many investors, rightly, believed that the Spanish Government wouldn't let it fail.

What are you talking about? IB has never made a profit? How about 14 consecutive years between 1995 and 2008?

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 118):
So where does this mysterious 2010 profit come from?

From IB's 2010 Annual Report? €95 m in profit, 89 after tax.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 121, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 9280 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 74):
He has a strategy, and that strategy is clear: downsize IB, lead it towards virtual disappearance, and try to keep Madrid's T4, since LHR is slot constrained. He probably believes this is the best strategy for IAG as a whole, which it may be. But IB's employees have a right to be furious about this, and to blame it on Walsh and BA.

Willie Walsh isn't some dictator who can just order things done, regardless of what your personal bias says.

He operates within the IAG board of directors. As mentioned, it is comprised of six Spanish nationals, six British nationals, a French national, and an Irish national.

If you would like to criticise the actions of IAG, that is your right and prerogative. However, please do so accurately. Whatever action you perceive IAG to be taking with regards to IB's size and/or structure, is done as a company. Willie Walsh may be the leader of the IAG board, but actions taken are approved by the board as a whole.

Willie Walsh isn't the cackling dictator you make him out to be.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 108):
If anyone has the experience and skill to help IB it is that management you are so critical of.

  

Quoting UALWN (Reply 109):
BA dealing with catastrophic terrorism? What about IB??

You are so deep in denial. It is both alarming and hilarious.



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 122, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 9285 times:

Quoting AA94 (Reply 121):
You are so deep in denial. It is both alarming and hilarious.

Hilarious? Are you perhaps making fun of the 191 people killed by Islamic terrorists in Madrid on March 11th, 2004? Why is 7/7 more relevant than 3/11?



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 123, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 9272 times:

Quoting AA94 (Reply 121):
Willie Walsh isn't the cackling dictator you make him out to be.

He's the CEO.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 121):
Quoting 1400mph (Reply 108):
If anyone has the experience and skill to help IB it is that management you are so critical of.
 

Yet since switching to this uniquely skilled management team led by WW, IB has slipped into its worse financial situation ever...



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 124, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 9215 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 123):
Yet since switching to this uniquely skilled management team led by WW, IB has slipped into its worse financial situation ever...

Nothing to do with Spain's dire economic situation then?

1 in 5 people unemployed

The Banks are highly indebted

One in four Spaniards were at risk of poverty or social exclusion


Yep, It's all Willie Walsh's fault. No one else to blame apart from him and his management team....


Give me strength... This is why the Eurozone is in trouble. It's everybody elses fault, apart from the people/companies that need the help!



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 125, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 9149 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 124):
Nothing to do with Spain's dire economic situation then?
Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 124):
Yep, It's all Willie Walsh's fault. No one else to blame apart from him and his management team....

There's no question these are hard times. Isn't in these circumstances when a management team has to prove itself? Vueling is printing money while UX is doing much better than IB. Both are based in Spain too. JK did even worse than IB, and, guess what, when it stopped operations last year everybody blamed the management team. And with good reason.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 126, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9021 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 122):
Hilarious? Are you perhaps making fun of the 191 people killed by Islamic terrorists in Madrid on March 11th, 2004? Why is 7/7 more relevant than 3/11?

No. I'm making fun of the fact that you have conveniently chosen to ignore the fact that Willie Walsh led BA through very tough times, in a market that is highly competitive -- a bloodbath, for lack of a better term. He has more than proven himself to be a capable leader. Apologies if my quote didn't reflect that.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 123):
Yet since switching to this uniquely skilled management team led by WW, IB has slipped into its worse financial situation ever...

Hmm, let's think about this. WW is running a business. It's not a charity, it's not a museum, it's not meant to display Spain's unique aviation history. While I have great respect for the aforementioned, Spain's economic situation has greatly exacerbated the high cost base that its operations have.

The unions seem unwilling to accept change, and are reacting to Walsh's leadership with the exact same attitude as yours: one of pure contempt. It is necessary to reform the business practices at Iberia. The sooner the unions accept this and get onboard, the better off the entire company will be.



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently offlineplaneguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9096 times:

Strip IB down to its most profitable routes and sell it to Synergy. Otherwise, just pull the plug and let the ugly beast die.

User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5242 posts, RR: 6
Reply 128, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8956 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 125):
Vueling is printing money while UX is doing much better than IB. Both are based in Spain too.

What are UX's costs like compared to IB? Havent UX also got rid of alot of larger 737's and replaced them with E190's?

What are Vueling's like?

Both are going to be lower than IB!... so even if IB can charge like for like for their airfares the higher costs will mean they can't be doing as well as the others.


User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8873 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 125):

So the airlines making a profit in Spain...

Lower cost base - staff on cheaper wages - outsourcing were possible?

Efficient use of staff. I know IB pilots were contracted to only 820hrs a year. Most airlines are 900hrs

Higher utilisation of aircraft?

No hangover from being a government controlled state airline?



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8815 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=29868

The plot thickens.

IB should be left to go their own merry way. It's all getting too messy.

Who knows anyway maybe KL might be up for another dance around the Mulberry bush ?

As it stands now do BA really need a partner in Europe beyond alliance level ?

IB's no KLM or Swiss is it !


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 131, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8592 times:

Quoting AA94 (Reply 126):
Apologies if my quote didn't reflect that.

Apologies accepted.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 126):
He has more than proven himself to be a capable leader.

Well, he's been IAG's CEO, hence in charge of IB too for 2 1/2 years. Yet IB is worse off now that when he took over. Maybe it's time to prove his worth.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 129):
No hangover from being a government controlled state airline?

IB was partially privatized in 1999, 14 years ago, and fully privatized in 2001, 12 years ago. Enough time, I'd say, to get over any hangover. Plus, let me point it out again, IB was profitable both before and after it was privatized, all the way to 2010, with the exception of 2009.

Quoting anstar (Reply 128):
What are UX's costs like compared to IB?

I don't know. Do you? All I know is IB's has been slashing salaries and firing people to a much larger extend than UX.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8524 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting UALWN (Reply 131):
IB was partially privatized in 1999, 14 years ago, and fully privatized in 2001, 12 years ago. Enough time, I'd say, to get over any hangover. Plus, let me point it out again, IB was profitable both before and after it was privatized, all the way to 2010, with the exception of 2009.

Spain and IB were riding the crest of a wave powered not by the wind but by debt.

When the wave crashed (quite literally) so did IB.

Unfortunately for IB MAD is not exposed to the more resilient markets of other European airports.

If you must blame anyone ( it is becoming very tiring) blame the people that allowed Spain, Greece etc to borrow all that money.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 133, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8523 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 132):
Spain and IB were riding the crest of a wave powered not by the wind but by debt.

IB? Debt? Do you know what you're talking about? BA had much more debt than IB when they merged.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 132):
it is becoming very tiring

Indeed...



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 134, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8475 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 133):
IB? Debt? Do you know what you're talking about? BA had much more debt than IB when they merged.

I don't think you have understood - not IB's debt, Spain's debt. The rapid growth of Spain's economy and through that much of Iberia's revenue/success was driven by attractive credit. That whole situation has crashed and burned, and Iberia's current situation is in part a product of this situation.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8417 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting UALWN (Reply 133):
IB? Debt? Do you know what you're talking about? BA had much more debt than IB when they merged.

IB is dependent on the Spanish economy. If the latter falters so does the former.

BA can have a tonne of debt for the same reason the United States can have a tonne of debt. The United States is the worlds largest economy, BA has a >50% slot holding at one of the worlds busiest and most lucrative airports.

In other words (just for you) it's serviceable with actual and projected income.


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 136, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8177 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 111):
Quoting 1400mph (Reply 108):
British civil aviation has been an absolute dog fight and blood bath compared to the rest of Europe over the past 15 years.

May I just remind that you that 'the rest of Europe' is not as anti-competitive as you may think:

Indeed, BA and IB live in the two most cut-throat aviation markets in Europe, with a large BA has to fend off FR, U2, VS, a dozen holiday charter carriers, etc etc. IB has to deal with FR, U2, UX until recently JK... plus a constantly growing HSR network. Both have to face competition in their home markets of MAD and LON and do not enjoy such fortress hubs as others. The competition that, for instance, LH faces in Germany is a joke in comparison. Hence, with such razor thin margins, a deep economic crisis like in Spain can quickly shift an airline from profit to loss.
Having said that, I maintain that WW's attitude is not the most appropriate to build confidence in the turnaround of IB - if turnaround is still the goal.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 137, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8082 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 135):
IB is dependent on the Spanish economy. If the latter falters so does the former.

What percentage of IB's traffic to/from their many Latin America destinations is connecting to/from the rest of Europe (not O&D to/from Spain itself)?

[Edited 2013-06-30 14:18:02]

User currently offlineacw367 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 138, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8065 times:

CAPA did some excellent analysis of Iberia financials and route structure in May
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...s-the-new-ones-taste-better-109589

And in Feb about the LOW productivity of the Iberia workforce before the announcement of the redundancies.
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...-least-productive-workforces-98577

[Edited 2013-06-30 14:22:42]

User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 139, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8007 times:

Quoting acw367 (Reply 138):
And in Feb about the LOW productivity of the Iberia workforce before the announcement of the redundancies.
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...98577

This is more recent and more complete:
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...-productivity-capa-rankings-104204



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 140, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7976 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 131):
IB was partially privatized in 1999, 14 years ago, and fully privatized in 2001, 12 years ago. Enough time, I'd say, to get over any hangover.

BA was privatised in February 1987. However the cabin staff strike of 2010 23 years later had its roots in BA's pre-privatisation culture and the working practices of a state run monolithic entity. With IB's full privatisation being not even mid way between BA's and their FA strike, there could be a way to go before the old, bad habits of a state run airline entirely disappear from IB.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 141, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7894 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 140):
However the cabin staff strike of 2010 23 years later had its roots in BA's pre-privatisation culture and the working practices of a state run monolithic entity.

I find that hard to believe. To start with, how many of BA's FAs in 2010 were already at BA 23 years earlier?



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 142, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7678 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 141):

Missed the point again...


The Terms and Conditions of the contract were a hangover from the Pre Privatised days.

The Union militancy was a hangover from the Pre Privatised days.


There could be a few CSD's or Pursers still working for BA now that were there 23 years ago as new cabin crew?



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 143, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7640 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 142):
Missed the point again...

Yeah sure....

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 142):
The Terms and Conditions of the contract were a hangover from the Pre Privatised days.

If the terms and conditions of the contract, particularly for new hires, hasn't changed in the 23 years since privatization, why bother with privatization in the first place?

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 142):
There could be a few CSD's or Pursers still working for BA now that were there 23 years ago as new cabin crew?

And they convinced everybody else to join in the 2010 strike? Please.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1924 posts, RR: 21
Reply 144, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7526 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 143):
Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 142):
The Terms and Conditions of the contract were a hangover from the Pre Privatised days.

If the terms and conditions of the contract, particularly for new hires, hasn't changed in the 23 years since privatization, why bother with privatization in the first place?

The post-privatisation contract may have been palatable (and preferable when compared to pre-privatisation contracts) for much of those 23 years when fuel was cheap and low-fare competition was only a minor nuisance, but both of those extremely influential environmental factors have changed.


User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 145, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7506 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 143):

Because before privatisation, BA was a loss making pretty shabby excuse of an airline.

By the late 1970s, the nationalised industries accounted for 10pc of Britain’s GDP, 14pc of investment and 8pc of employment.

Maggie Thatcher (Then Prime Minister) realised managers had to be free to manage businesses, and free from the control of government.

In 1981 BA lost in excess of £140m a year. By 1989, (2 years after privatisation) BA was making a pre-tax profit of £268m. Some of Lord King’s major changes at the airline included removing 22,000 staff members, hiring Colin Marshall as CEO in 1983, removing older aircraft from the fleet, purchasing more modern and efficient airliners, and axing unprofitable routes.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 143):
And they convinced everybody else to join in the 2010 strike? Please.

Nope, The Unions balleted for a strike, Not everybody voted (Something like 40% of them did) but they got enough votes to go for industrial action.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2932 posts, RR: 25
Reply 146, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7502 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 143):
And they convinced everybody else to join in the 2010 strike? Please.

I really do sense an arrogant level of disdain in some of your responses when, in fact, your own opinion shows you up for not having an appreciation of the facts of the situation.

This one line response reveals a lack of understanding and knowledge with regard to British Airways' industrial relations over the years and might explain the tone of some of your other posts.

I'm all for fighting my corner if I believe I am right. The beauty of these forums is their ability though to educate me when my viewpoint and opinion turns out to be not quite as accurate as I believe.  

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7605 posts, RR: 3
Reply 147, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7429 times:

Perhaps you could read some of the threads about the 2010 strike.

User currently offlineJohnwaynebobbet From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2013, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 148, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7331 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 141):
I find that hard to believe. To start with, how many of BA's FAs in 2010 were already at BA 23 years earlier?

You would be shocked then at the number of BA employees in the sky's with over 23+ years service.

Despite privatisation it will take many years for IB to reduce the T&C's to that of the airlines it competes with. Either that or it will do as BA has done with mixed fleet.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 149, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7208 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 145):
Some of Lord King’s major changes at the airline included removing 22,000 staff members, hiring Colin Marshall as CEO in 1983, removing older aircraft from the fleet, purchasing more modern and efficient airliners, and axing unprofitable routes.

Very good. So by 2010 what was left from the 1987 BA?

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 146):

Nice post. Pity it does not reply to my question. I'll freely admit that I don't know the history of BA. However, I will say that if the 2010 strike was due to (or influenced by) issues relating to the pre-1987 BA, then somebody at BA has not been doing his/her job very well during those 23 years. Which doesn't bode well for IB.

[Edited 2013-07-01 06:52:37]


AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 150, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7122 times:

Just a side note. Last Friday at around 17.00 I wrote to IB customer service email address asking something about their new webpage. In fact I didn't see the "pre-booking" option because it was hidden by another kind of scroll bar (the one used to show the flights details). Well, not a specially difficult case to deal with, me thinks. The point is that until now, 72 hours later, I haven't got an answer. And this is not the first time. Nothing more to say.


A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 151, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6899 times:

I just ask one question: What, by giving specific facts/examples, have BA done to put IB in this situation?

I think we all know the answer to this one: NOTHING. I find it comical that the unions are actually using this argument with no backing whatsoever and that the staff have not question the union's reasoning. The unions are just using the good old days as their current standard and rallying up a storm about their pays/pensions by blaming the situation on their new partner that went through the same bit of restructuring a few years ago.

BA are now in a position for expansion and growth as a result of the sacrifices the employee's made. The same will hold true for IB if they accept that they will be gone if they do not fix their working practices.

Naturally IB is dependent upon the now weak Spanish economy. Of course it will hurt the airline. BA is dependent on the UK and North American financial sectors and a bump in that market (like in 2009) will hurt BA. What is so hard to accept about that?

I have talked with several BA staff that I work with and several have commented about the rude treatment they (and other British people) have been getting from IB staff, I would like to add.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 130):

http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=29868

The plot thickens.

I find this hilarious and someone at BA is obviouslly getting fed up with IB as well. More prestige banting and old world pride from the IB unions, quelle suprise.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 131):
Well, he's been IAG's CEO, hence in charge of IB too for 2 1/2 years. Yet IB is worse off now that when he took over. Maybe it's time to prove his worth.

Or maybe it is bad timing? I don't think we can blame him for the collapse of the Spanish economy, however much the unions try to rub off that position.


I have always said that BA got a terrible deal when these two, very different, airlines decided to join forces. Let's think about this retrospectively: BA only owns 60% of IAG. This deal was done when BA were in a weak position (the weakest they had been in since privatization) and IB got a fantastic deal. I'm now sure that that decision was the worst decision ever brought upon the airline. They now have to deal with bad morale with their sister company and could, if necessary (and I hope this never happens) bail out IB through its own profits.

Does anyone know if there is an escape clause for BA? I think the trial period may be reaching its end. I would seriously be looking for ways to get BA out of this pitiful airline group if I were at Waterside.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3253 posts, RR: 1
Reply 152, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6971 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 149):
Very good. So by 2010 what was left from the 1987 BA?

A very militant and unmanageable cabin crew union called BASSA which Mr Walsh was hired to smash (allegedly)


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 153, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6873 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 149):
However, I will say that if the 2010 strike was due to (or influenced by) issues relating to the pre-1987 BA, then somebody at BA has not been doing his/her job very well during those 23 years.

You are right to an extent. That's why "Mr Nasty" Willie Walsh was recruited in 2005 to finally "fix" BA.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 154, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6767 times:

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 151):
I think we all know the answer to this one: NOTHING.

Isn't that a bad thing? Isn't management supposed to do something rather than nothing?



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2932 posts, RR: 25
Reply 155, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6597 times:

http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zht...=irol-EventDetails&EventId=4870758

Keep your eye on this link tomorrow; the June Traffic and Capacity Statistics will be released.

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 156, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6601 times:

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 151):
The unions

Just a general reminder: it is the union, in singular. The pilots' union Sepla to be more precise. All other IB unions agreed to the proposal of the mediator back in march.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 151):
BA got a terrible deal

That's just looking at the instantaneous picture. IMO, if succesfully turned around, IB (or in any case, LatAm and MAD) has much more future potential. BA operates in a mature market out of a constrained airport that cannot grow. IB operates to a market that is only starting to fully develop out a fantastic hub facility with plenty of growth capacity. So it depends on how you look at it.