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Sabena VS Herr Muller  
User currently offlineAirbuspilot From Belgium, joined Apr 2000, 416 posts, RR: 2
Posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1556 times:

What is the real strategy behind Christophe Mullers plan to "save " SABENA!!!!!
Some reflexions.....



1)His BP is nothing more than a resumee of all the BPs that have past the revue at SN the last 25 years. No innovation, no real market strategy,no vision. He is lagging behind the world of aviation with at least 5 years....

2)He does everything to annoy his employees. He knew that when he wanted to touch the CSL/careerplan the pilots would be upsett, he knew when he was going to brake a strike with a court order the unions would be pissed off, . Is he provoking something or what?????

3)He refuses any dialogue. He does not want to give any information regardless the " wet Renault" which obliges him to do so!Today , during the meeting, pilots asked him what he is aiming for with his BP. He could not even tell!!It is just a bunch of if that...and that...and that...and that...than maybe we will be able to....
Not one guarantee, not one exact piece of evidence,no nothing. A sack filled with air....

4)He imposes ultimata that grow tighter every minute. Today managment and unions had a meeting where he propsed some details of his BP. The first details but HERR Muller wants an agreement by sunday!!!Immagine that, a socially catastrophical plan for 12000 people that he wants to be signed within 4 days!!!!

5)He MISUSES the disaster that struck the USA to force his employees to sign a blanc piece of paper. Later he will fill in the details. He told the people that they had to act very quickly otherwise it would be too late due to the USA disaster. If they would sign before sunday everything would be allright. he would be able to get his money and so on...
BULLSHIT, the kapital injection promised is comming to SN no matter what, this has nothing to do with the agreement of his BP!!!!!!But he finds it the right thing to do , rub these awfull events in theeir faces and they will sign whatever I want!!!!DISGUSTING!!!!

6)He does not even think about the impact of 10 months of social discussions,arguments,BPs, uncertainty,...has on his personnel. Everybody is getting nervous, suspicious,angry, frustrated...etc but he still expects us to do our jobs with all the proffessionalism we have!!We are trying but we are only human...one of these days somebody will crack at SN and than what.....Are you calling that a responsable CEO of an airline?

Let me tell you this, I am beginning to think that the only thing Herr Muller wants is the bancrupcy of SN.
He has been appointed by SR, he is still working for them and SN is too much of a deadweight within SRs plans so the man had a mission: let SN disappear.So he started to reign with terror. Divide the personnel, they will kill each other!!!
So he sets up the different groups of pilots against each other by promising one group jobs and saying to the others they will be fired, disregarding any previous deals made!!!!Unfortunately this did not work, we stayed united.
Than he tried the game with the unions. Lets put up the unions against the flying personnel!!!Unfortunately he made a terrible mistake by restraining the freedom to strike!!!!This did not work either!!!!
Than he tried to change the public opinion against the pilots and sn personnel in general!!!!Did not work

And now I ll bet that this evil mind is even happy with the malaise in the global airline bussiness due to to the terrible events of last week in the US. At last he has a reason to put a tremendous pressure on SN employees!!!And if they do not comply to his demands, he has a reason to shut down SN!!!!At last he will have found a reason....

I hope I am totally wrong here but I am afraid not.Maybe SN will exist untill DEC and than...

And Herr Muller will move on to another company, another mission, another point on his resume...

Thank you very much christophe.....we should have listend to LH when they told us you where no good....

What are your thoughts here????






68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDutchWings From Netherlands, joined Jan 2001, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1375 times:

My thoughts are sabena sux and it is never profitable

User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3741 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1375 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Sabena is not dead yet and I still hope, like you and all other Sabena employees and fans, that Sabena won't shut down. It does still have a chance to recover from it's debt, slowly but surely. It says in the newspapers that if a recovery plan is not found then Sabena will have just a few months to live, but that doesn't mean you should think it will die. It's not impossible that it stays alive! I still ask myself how will Sabena be saved, but I don't loose hope of survival.

DutchWings, please don't be so negative. Why do you hate so much Sabena? What is it that you have against them? If you don't like Sabena, I respect your taste, it's ok but explain WHY. Don't just post a stupid reply and say oh Sabena is bad, if you are not happy about something then give us some explanations and we discuss about it! Would you like to see Sabena going out of business? I don't know if you would but I would definitely not like to see that happen. A lot of Belgian fellows, including myself, are very concerned about the future of Sabena. You don't seem to care about the danger Sabena is going though. "My thoughts are sabena sux and it is never profitable " what kind of reply is this? You don't care, fine, it's your business! But then, remain quiet instead of just saying bad things about an airline without explaining.
I'm sorry but I did not appreciate the way you reacted to Airbuspilot's post. Next time you make a post, think a little bit more positive!

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineDutchWings From Netherlands, joined Jan 2001, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1354 times:

Sabena seems to be in trouble alllt he time this isn't the first time, and thats why i think it's getting pretty annoying

User currently offlineTca256 From Belgium, joined Dec 1999, 729 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1338 times:

"sabena sux"

Keep the tarmac clean...


User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1340 times:

Airbuspilot - what a load of twaddle!

1) "The BP is an amalgamation of all the other plans" - which is kind of logica. The problem with the other plans is that they were not followed. Nor do I think that this includes much of Paul Reutlinger's expansionist plans!

2) "He deliberately annoys his staff" = don't be silly - what manager would do that? Given SN's circumstances, the CSL should never have happened - it was too much of a utopian dream, which would work only in a stable, profitable, well managed company: something SN has never been.

3) "He refuses any dialogue" = so? Who is the CEO, Muller or the unions? This is not some small plan about a possible new route or a new aircraft where consultation would be the norm - this is a survival plan and he is perfectly right to say, as he has done, that to change around with the ingredients would be like "making soup without salt". What do pilots know about running airlines, anyway?

4) "He imposes ultimatums that grow ever tighter" = of course he does! The childish games payed by BeCA have cost the company a lot of money - money the company does not have. The already low level of confidence coupled with the recent events in America mean that far less income is coming in than was projected so unless the plan is signed off on Sunday, the company cannot legally continue as a going concern. It's that simple.

5) "He misuses the USA disaster to force the signing of the deal" - there's no time to spend ten months talking, with non-official unions (ie BeCA) staging illegal strikes etc ... let me put it in clear terms that you lot will understand: Sabena has run out of time. If all of the terms are not agreed - including acceptance that up to a further 25% of jobs, aircraft etc will be cut, the company will close.

6) "He doesn't take into consideration the effects of the uncertainty" - well, he's trying to minimise that uncertainty by standing firm with his terms - so there can be no uncertainty. Obviously, the recent events have changed things - as they have for nearly every airline around the world - but it would have been a lot simpler if the strikes etc hadn't happended. This is a disaster brought upon Sabena by its over staffing in all areas, low utilisation of crews - due in large part to poor fleet planning - industrial actions, high social costs etc.

Your theory that he's working for SR is nonsensical. SR have washed their hands of SN with the final investment - they no longer have any interest in it. Muller was re-appointed by the Belgian government, so you're really saying that the Belgian government wants to see it closed down, which I am sure they do as it has cost the taxpayer so much money for so little return.

You lot expect the shareholders to keep on employing everyone and flying aircraft when there are no passengers or money to merit it. You must all be completely insane!! Have you no idea how a business operates? It certainly doesn't look as if you do.

I have been saying for a long time now that Muller will have no option other than to close the company - and I'm right. When you're competing against hundreds of far more qualified pilots for every new job that comes up in the future, you can think about that - that if BeCA hadn't buried its head in the sand, you might still have been flying.

In fact, you know what? I recon BeCA is really SR's secret weapon to close down SN! Big grin  Insane Big grin


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1312 times:

Why does a bankruptcy means the end of Sabena? In a recent CANVAS programme called "Terzake", a former VLM CEO gave what sounds like the most likely scenario IF Sabena folds. Sabena will probably restart according to Mullers business plan (I wouldn't be suprised if Muller even heads the "new" Sabena) and align to an alliance.

Regards
Laurens

BTW I do agree that SR won't mind if SN goes bankrupt. However, it looks very bad on Muller's resume if he fails.


User currently offlineOO-AOG From Switzerland, joined Dec 2000, 1426 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1302 times:

When you take a look to the current situation in the airline's world, I think that Sabena employees should give a break to everyone and try together to save their company. Even wealthy airlines are worried of their immediate future, not to speak of strugling Sabena!
I am an ex-Sabena, I know how bad the company is from the inside, so guys no more strike if you want a future. The US tragedy is not an excuse to fire people, it's a damned serious problem for any CEO, that need immediate action.



Falcon....like a limo but with wings
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1285 times:

BerlugaBoy, the media is already blaming the pilot (at least on Bloomberg where they think the pilots are nuts). Allthough, I agree with the pilots when they say that SN management doesn't understand them (a SN spokesperson even admitted that they don't understand the pilots) and that is a failure on the management side. However, the pilots must also realise that if airlines like BA, AZ and possibly AF are laying off people due to the tragedy in New York that SN must lay off aswell. Yes not all airlines are laying off staff (KLM at least for the moment said that they have not the intention), but those airlines are in much better shape than SN.

Fortunately we know by Sunday if SN will go bankrupt or not (the new deadline as I always thought that October 3rd was the deadline).

BTW The EU Commision said today NO to state aid.

Regards
Laurens



User currently offlineAirbuspilot From Belgium, joined Apr 2000, 416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1276 times:

Let it go bancrupt then. This may be the best option ever.

Just had a proposal:SN will be operating 50 seaters. A captain will earn 99000bef brut and a n F/O 77000bef.After tax deduction this means +/- 1000USD a month F/O and 1300USD a month Captain!!!This is the offer he maid!!!

Here in Belgium the average F/O pays 750USD a month on his loan to become a pilot!!!!So why even bother to become a pilot!

Once this was an honourable profession, now it is thanks to managers like ceilidh that it is wrth nothing!!

To everybody reading this: fly your own godamn airplanes when you are going on a holliday, fly it during the nights, on weekends, etc. Take responsability over 50 people or more for the price of one meal a day!!!

Oh and do not forget: stay responsable and professional!!!!




User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1266 times:

Let's get this straight, Airbuspilot. You and your colleagues would rather see 9,000 people lose their jobs than take a pay cut to help save your company.

If you lot hadn't pissed away millions of francs on strikes then there would have been money available to pay people a little more.

Resign, and let one of the thousands of other pilots who are now out of work take the job. I'm sure they would prefer 99,000bef/77,000bef month than whatever is on offer at the unemployment office.

And I'm sure you and your BeCA colleagues will be setting up your own airline as you obviously think you can do it better than the professionals. Good luck to you!


User currently offlineAirbuspilot From Belgium, joined Apr 2000, 416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1247 times:

What would you do ceilidh???I bet you are the type of guy that would sell his own mother if he could make a profit out of it!
So you think it is right that a company asks 3000000bef for a pilots training that costs 38000bef a month and afterwards these pilots have to be gratefull that they are allowed to fly????I know this must be a wet dream for you but dont you understand that this is killing them??In both ways, they will do anything to fly overtime so they can gain more!!!!
In my opinion the proffession of being a pilot deserves some respect, this shows no respect of all!
And if they are payin this amount to a pilot, what will they be paying the cabin crew?Minimum minimum!
So much for safety,professionalism, attracting high yield pax etc....
These toung ones will earn a better living if they become a salesman!!!!

Remember this, if ever you would be able to get your pathetic company in the air, even you will need pilots!!!I know you hate them but you will have to. GOOD LUCK TO YOU, it is not easy to live with peple you hate!!!!


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1252 times:

Airbuspilot, why don't the pilots (with the help of some wealthy poeple) buy out the airline like what happened at Air Liberté and some other airlines? Seems not a bad idea as this would be better than SN go bankrupt.

Regards
Laurens

BTW Ceillidh why don't you buy SN (or parts of it)? The price won't be high, probably EUR 1 + all debt (and if you're lucky you get some cash from Swissair and/or the Belgian State), and you're instantly a CEO of a "major". Or are you waiting for the bankruptcy to get the assets cheaper?


User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1235 times:

LJ - the debt scares me plus also what makes you think that I would be able to do a better job than Swissair, BA, BCal, SAS, Air France (twice) etc? Given the high social and taxation costs, I wouldn't consider putting any company in Belgium - at least not until those have been reformed.

Airbuspilot 3 million BEF = US$69,000 which is very high for a conversion, even for Airbus training. Of course, if you're saying that this covers you from ab-initio all the way up to a rating, then I'd say it's a very good deal indeed.

And if the latter is the case, then what do you expect? You have the choice of going to your bank and borrowing the money - and they will want it back as well.

I certainly don't 'hate' pilots as you claim. A pilot is simply an aerial bus or truck driver. They have the same level of responsibility and whilst of course a pilot has a significantly higher amount of training, there is no real fundamental difference between them. Pilots have, however, regarded themselves as being 'special' and therefore trying to justify why they should be paid more that the CEOs of most small to medium companies. An experienced FO, in my opinion, should be paid the same as a junior manager; and a captain the same as a middle manager. Training captains would be paid the same as a senior manager.

I do however feel that cabin crew pay should be increased to the level where the Purser/CSD is being paid at least the same as an FO.


User currently offlineSpitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1221 times:

Has you ever see a truck, a bus ,a train ...blow up buildings like WTC and Pentagon ?


Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1214 times:

Spitfire - yes, actually!  Insane  Insane

User currently offlineSpitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1207 times:

I think the plan of Müller and the Swiss managers is more subtle. They know that their BP is totaly unacceptable and that it will lead to nothing.
They want to bankrupt Sabena anyway. But they have to show to the public that they have done everything to save this company and that the "bloody pilots" are the soles reponsibles for this situation.

So, the next day, they can reconstruct another airline (with the remains of the previous one) WITHOUT HAVING ANY DEBTS ANYMORE towards the banks and the belgian state (and some others).

And so those "respectable sharks" will now be able to impose anything they want to their "new" employees. This is already written in the plan itself and understandable through the very FEW answers given to our numerous questions (50+) we asked to Müller concerning his BP.

And, in that case, we 'd better work for a low cost airline, like RyanAir, instead of the "new Sabena", because it will look more like slavery that anything else. There is no more respect in the head of the Sabena's staff for their pilots and their employees. We are just numbers.



Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
User currently offlineSpitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1193 times:

Ceilidh,

For your information, here in Belgium, due to the high level of tax, 77,000 BEF BRUTO, means you have only something like 40,000 ( +/- 1000 € ) on your bank account. When you know that the unemployment benefit is around 850-875 € netto, you could better understand what Airbuspilot is saying. You have to know the belgian conjoncture before put a straight advise. It is not like in your country.
Those pilots have also to pay between 875 and 1000 € EACH month, for 5 to 7 years, to pay back the loan they made to pay their pilot's study in Belgium and in Scottsdale.
With what will they live? ...Ok I can ear you already:" better have 1000€, pay 875€ and live with 125€ per month "...that's a little bit simple-mindedness.



Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1191 times:

Spitfire - How do you get to €850 - 875 unemployment benefit? Here it's £51.30 per week - say €300 or so per month!

I can understand what you're saying about the cost of training, but wouldn't it be better to renegotiate that with SN, for example by saying to them that they have to reduce correspondingly the training debt by any pay reduction? That's how I'd do it. That way they have the full (or most of) the €1,000 to live on.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1185 times:

Spitfire, it doesn't happen often but I totally agree with the scenario you pointed out in your post (they want SN to go bankrupt). Blue Skies was probably their first attempt to off load SN. Unfortuneately for SR (and to great suprise of SR) the unions accepted Blue Skies. Fact remained (and I've said it on many occasions) that SR wants to off load SN as cheap as possible. If SN goes bankrupt they have exactly what they want.

Regards
Laurens

BTW do you really think the banks are losing a lot by SNs bankruptcy? I think they've made sure that their loans are covered by some sort of guarantee. Leaves only one other loser besides the employees: the Belgian tax payer!



User currently offlineSpitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1185 times:

Yes Ceilidh, in Belgium for the first years ( I think between two and five, I'm not sure) of unemployment you can get ( someone with family) around 850€ A MONTH as unemployment benefit. That's a big difference with your country. The "social security" is something very important in Belgium (that' s one of the reason why the taxes are so high).
So, as I said before you do not have all the elements concerning the belgian laws and way of life. You 'd better inform you a lot more before making statements like you did before. We are not in England nor in the States. Belgian unions and governments build up during the last century a very "socialist" state. It's a fact, you can deplore it, but it 's like that.



Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
User currently offlineSpitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1182 times:

Laurens,

Could be of course. So everybody will be winning, except the Sabena's employees and the belgian tax payers (as usual...).



Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1183 times:

Spitfire, you neglected to mention the "with a family" bit. Here, similar rules apply, and the figures wouldn't be wildly different either if you have a family with 3 kids or so. How much would a single person get in Belgium, though?

Laurens - why would SR want to offload SN for as little as possible when they have invested so much money into it? If that's all they wanted to do, I am sure that they would never have made the investment in the first place!


User currently offlineSpitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1182 times:

Ceilidh,

When I say "with family", it's a wife and maybe one child. A single will get something like 750-800 €. I don't think young pilots around 22-25 years old would already have three or more children. They are not rabbits...(...even if we have some reputation...).

And concerning SR, they have already earned back the money they invested in SN.



Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
User currently offlineSpitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (12 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1179 times:

Ceilidh,

Check this link ( it's in french but I'm sure you can understand it). I was not so far with my previous posts.

http://www.cgslb.be/chom.htm



Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
25 Ceilidh : Spitfire - thanks for that; very interesting! Of course, we have to bear in mind that the cost of living in Belgium is very high ... when I was operat
26 Spitfire : Ceilidh, My wife used to call me the "Sky grocer" when I returned from the States (when the $ was lower...) 'cause I brought back lots of different th
27 Maverickk : SR has all the money that they put in Sabena long back As the beca mentions, they took the Johannesburg flight, they want to take the Tokio flight, et
28 Lj : Maverickk, I don't agree. I think that initially SR wanted to make a big alliance and SN was very cheap at the time. Their vision was to make a grand
29 Ceilidh : As I understand it, this final lot of money that they are investing is it - they are now absolved of all liabilities. Maverickk, what BeCA forgets is
30 Post contains links Lj : Ceillidh, you must agree that the SR at present wants to off load SN as soon as possible against the lowest cost. The SR management is under very big
31 Ceilidh : Laurens - I absolutely agree that SR now needs to offload SN at the lowest cost, and this they have been able to accomplish through the deal with the
32 Airbuspilot : Very nice discussion! I will publish here the latest facts/calculations that will proof that there is something wrong with this whole story! It is a f
33 Airbuspilot : For info 1US $ = 44 Bef
34 Spitfire : It seems that all this sh... is giving you also insomnia... Hi K.
35 Lj : Just on VRT: SN deadline at today 16.00 CET (4 hours to go). Regards Laurens
36 Flying lsd : deadline maybe but what's next : a kind of chapter 11 just like in US, a "concordat" maybe a new SN builded on new financial health? It's maybe sad bu
37 Post contains images Ceilidh : Nope, as I understand it this deadline = liquidation (Chapter 7). SN has effectively already been operating in a "concordat" (Chapter 11) as it is cur
38 Petertenthije : Just a question, when SN goes bankrupt and restarts without the debts. Would it again be allowed to fly to the profitable destinations like Miami, Joh
39 Airbuspilot : My dear ceilidh, proof has been given that pax have received money if they would accept a rerouting via zurich! Instead of flying Boston-Brussels with
40 Com3205 : If Sn is in concordat Mr Muller will be able to take special mesures, it will be easier to put certain people out of the company.(names are known). I
41 Airbuspilot : SN is not in concordat. If this had been the case it should have been published in the " staatsblad" with a KB. This , untill now, is not the case so.
42 Post contains images Ceilidh : Petertenthije - you can't just declare yourself bankrupt to avoid repayment of debts, otherwise everyone would do it! All that it does is allows you t
43 Airbuspilot : We will have to see about the court order! I said SN understands African mentality, not works by it! The only difference is first class indeed, but do
44 A330 : Airbuspilot, stop sucking the d*cks of the BCA mafia and wake up. I will hold you partially resposnsible my nice uniform will start collecting dust in
45 Spitfire : From a selfish long haul pilot : I have more than 65 block hours this month, PLUS 10 hours Recurent courses, PLUS 10 hours simulator + prof checks, PL
46 Freeboot : Shame you're actually not the African aviation expert you claim Ceilidh. BTW what year will "CaledonianWings" sky-darkening fleet of L1011's be airbor
47 Post contains images Ceilidh : Spitfire - that still amounts to only 85 hours per month plus 2 days reserve - sheer luxury! (Ask some of the CX guys how many days a month they are o
48 Airbuspilot : The best proof that the BeCA is on the right track: This afternoon, during the so called last possible negotiations between management and personnel,
49 Post contains images Ceilidh : Looks like it's all over for SN then. So long and thanks for all the fun, guys!
50 Blink182 : As far as I am concerned, Muller is at least being honest about Sabena's financial problems while Reutlinger kept quiet about it. I do have one questi
51 Airbuspilot : Exactly the same question we are asking.....since 1 year now!
52 Ceilidh : It's going on paying for all the losses - and every time the pilots (or anyone else) goes on strike, that costs another 100m BFR or so! Actually, I do
53 Airbuspilot : I do not think this is a coincidence: Muller wanted a signed deal yesterday evening, no mather what. Monday morning big press release made by SR: *New
54 Ceilidh : Airbuspilot - looks like you and your BeCA colleagues have just shot yourselves in the foot - or head. It seems obvious that the reason that Christoph
55 Airbuspilot : Wrong again, even if sr goes into Chapter 11 it still has to pay the 11 billion bef because this agreement has been reached months ago.. Not an ace in
56 Lutfi : If SR goes into bankruptcy, then Sabena is just another creditor. And it would be ranked below banks and staff, though above shareholders. So the chan
57 Ceilidh : Airbuspilot - it's you that's lacking the knowledge of bankruptcy law! If companies had to honour their previous commitments in full, then what would
58 Lutfi : But, Mr Ceilidh, doesn't excuse you from being a dickhead, it appears you are gloating over SN demise.
59 Spitfire : Where did you read any information about a Swissair bankrupt? That is not written in their new plan. They will get governement and industrials aids...
60 BelugaBoy : Dumping Sabena is the first and most important demand from the Swiss government and almost every industry group from within Switzerland that can help
61 Spitfire : Your accusations are very strong. YOU will have TO PROVE them...otherwise...
62 Post contains links LJ : Most of you probably read the latest SN press release already but for those who haven't I suggest you read it on SN's website (http://www.sabena.com/a
63 TriStar : I wouldn't be surprised if an Irishman were heading Trends. They've always been keen on writing negative stories on SN. Another fine example of Belgia
64 Bicoastal : Ceilidh, You are right on! Thank you.
65 Ceilidh : Right, so what was I saying about Swissair possibly going to declare bankruptcy if their recap plan isn't approved - which in turn depends on the SN p
66 310_engineer : - which in turn depends on the SN plan being okayed by all staff? ?????? Not all staff is allowed to vote in the referendum. Can someone tell me how i
67 LJ : 310_engineer, the answer is that A) Muller's business plan will be accepted and thus the companies you mention have no future at SN as they have to be
68 Airbuspilot : We will have to wait and see.....It is not over yet you know! Maybe something very surprisingly will happen in the next days,be ready. And it will not
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I Need Information On Sabena posted Tue Jan 8 2002 00:05:50 by Airportmanager
Security Hassles: SJC Vs. Sfo? posted Sun Jan 6 2002 15:43:03 by CF-CPI
Sabena; Big A/c Variety For A Small Country. posted Sun Jan 6 2002 14:28:31 by Air Orange
VS Boss Predicts Better 2002 posted Sun Jan 6 2002 11:50:11 by Singapore_Air
IAH Vs. DFW For Long-haul Destinations posted Sun Jan 6 2002 04:16:58 by RedEye