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Northwest DC-7C?  
User currently offlinetridum From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 49 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8384 times:

Hello all,
I am doing some research on Northwest airlines 14 DC-7C's but still have some questions and hope that someone can help answer them.
1. What were the delivery dates for the DC-7C's? I know that the first delivery was in February 1957. However, it appears that the airline took delivery of an initial 8 followed by a further 6.
2. When did the paint scheme change (if it did) to look like the DC-6's? When delivered the DC-7C's had a large compass aft of the cockpit windows, with "Northwest" under the cockpit windows on the red cheat line. Further the scheme had "DC-7C" in large letters on the tail above the American flag. At some point, presumably in the early-mid 60's (by way of the DC-6) the "Northwest"under the cockpit was removed and the tail number moved from the tail to the aft fuselage.
3. Northwest converted 10 DC-7C's to freighters. When did this occur and what were the tail numbers?

Thank you for the help!

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Australia, joined Jan 2013, 1398 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8153 times:

Quoting tridum (Thread starter):
1. What were the delivery dates for the DC-7C's? I know that the first delivery was in February 1957. However, it appears that the airline took delivery of an initial 8 followed by a further 6.
Quoting tridum (Thread starter):
3. Northwest converted 10 DC-7C's to freighters. When did this occur and what were the tail numbers?

Yes they took delivery of theirs in two batches. They even took three second-hand aircraft. For more details you can check this address: http://www.geocities.com/aeromoe/fleets/nw.html and also http://www.airlinerlist.com/ where I'm sure you'll find detailed data about delivery and conversion dates.



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User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1034 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7850 times:

And they lost three - two very successful ditchings and one crash in the Pacific with no survivors.

User currently offlineozark1 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 380 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7563 times:

According to a book I have entitled "More Than Meets The Sky", Northwest operated 17 DC-7C's. It's mainly a pictorial history with very few written pages of information, but here are the tail numbers if you need them. The glossary in the back does not mention delivery dates.
NWA No.281-N2281
NWA No.282-N2282
NWA No.283-N2283
NWA No.284-N284
to and including
NWA No.297-N297.
So starting with 284 they reduced the N numbers by one.


User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Australia, joined Jan 2013, 1398 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7365 times:

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 3):
NWA No.281-N2281
NWA No.282-N2282
NWA No.283-N2283

Those three are the second-hand aircraft acquired in 1958.



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User currently offlinetridum From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6598 times:

Thanks for the info about the tail numbers and conversions. Did Northwest modify the paint scheme like the DC-6's in the 1960s?

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6583 times:

Quoting tridum (Reply 5):
Did Northwest modify the paint scheme like the DC-6's in the 1960s?

Are you referring to the different livery just behind the cockpit in these NW DC-7C photos (both dated 1960)?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mel Lawrence
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mel Lawrence



The first photo has the registration on the rear fuselage (like the photo below) and the second photo has it vertically near the top of the tail.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mel Lawrence



[Edited 2013-07-07 16:46:47]

User currently offlinetridum From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6180 times:

Yes the livery behind the cockpit. They removed both the Compass and the "Northwest"under the cockpit and moved the tail number to the fuselage. Northwest apparently kept the "DC-7C" on the tail until the planes were retired in the mid-late 60's? Further, it appears that the markings on the wings were removed as well.

User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2058 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5765 times:
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The old livery had 'Northwest' on the nose and vertical numbers on the tail.
Beginning late 1958 some of the aircraft delivered with the Imperial Eagle logo on the tail as well as DC-7C. Not all aircraft were painted in this livery. (All L-188's and two DC-8's delivered with Imperial Eagle logo).
A few aircraft traded-in to (a reluctant) Douglas on new -8's.
10 ended up converted to CF's. When they weren't stranded by mx issues they flew in a mixed configuration as well as MATS charters. Towards the end of service with NW they were freight-only----certainly by '66. There were only a few left and were finally withdrawn from use by '67. The last one was sold off in early '68 I believe.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1255 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (9 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5457 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 8):
Beginning late 1958 some of the aircraft delivered with the Imperial Eagle logo on the tail as well as DC-7C

IIRC, this was carried over to the Electras when they were delivered. I have seen many pictures of the "Regal Eagle" on the tail and always wondered why NW did not keep it.



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User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1255 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5430 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 2):
And they lost three - two very successful ditchings and one crash in the Pacific with no survivors.

I was friends with the NW purser that was on the DC-7 that ditched in Manila Bay. He used to love to tell the story about how after the ditching, the company contacted him not to find out if the cabin crew were OK but they wanted to know the numbers on the liquor kits! True story.



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User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5214 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5407 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 10):
the company contacted him not to find out if the cabin crew were OK but they wanted to know the numbers on the liquor kits!

Under Donald Nyrop, NW was famous for counting every penny twice.



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlinetridum From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5117 times:

thanks everyone. I've been away so I haven't had a chance to check on the thread. A couple of final questions and I should have the info I need: 1. When did the conversions take place? Looking at the pictures on this site it appears they took place by 1961/62 at the latest. 2. Was the "DC-7C" ever removed from the tail or did it remain there until NW retired the planes?

User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2058 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5070 times:
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Quoting tridum (Reply 12):
they took place by 1961/62

Yes. Mostly 1961.

The" DC-7C" remained on the tail. It was never changed to "CF" as many other carriers did when theirs were converted.

I miss the 7's terribly. Maybe it was just the era. There was nothing like the sound of those Wrights chugging as a 7 taxied by. Or the earth-pounding sound on take-off. Inside my favorite seat was 4D. A perfect view of the stacks on #3 made for rather spectacular start-ups and especially night take-offs.   



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinetridum From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4609 times:

ImperialEagle you've been a great help as I attempt to model a NW DC-7C. A couple other questions though: Upon delivery were the wing tips painted red on all aircraft? The only picture on this website of an as delivered NW DC-7C appears as though the wings tips aren't painted. In Gann's book there is a picture of a DC-7C in flight, but I can't tell if the tips are painted. It would appear as though they are not.
Finally, do you know what planes were delivered with the Imperial Eagle logo on them?
Thanks again!


User currently offlinesparky35805 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4390 times:
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I have never seen a photo of a Northwest aircraft other than an Electra with the Eagle on the tail.Even the two DC-8s delivered in the old livery did not have it.

User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2058 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4265 times:
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I believe all delivered with painted wing-tips. The fabric ailerons not painted. Flag as well under starboard wing and on top of port wing right next to red area. I only recall about a half-dozen with the Imperial Eagle----the last batch delivered I think.

The first two -8's had the Imperial Eagle on them, no red stripe under the cockpit windows, and the dark blue (almost black) cheat line was still ABOVE the windows. The last three were painted in the up-dated livery with the (more navy blue in color) cheat line running through the windows, red stripe under the cockpit windows and large "DC-8C" lettering on the tail as well as a small flag.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinesparky35805 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4077 times:
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I would love to see a photo of a 7C or DC-8 with the eagle on the tail.I have photos of several 7Cs including one of the last delivered.I also have photos of DC-8s ship 801 and 802 and both have the red stripe on the nose and no eagle on the tail,just a flag.I do have an in service photo of Electra N121US without the red stripe,but also have a later photo in which it has the red stripe.

User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3962 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 16):
The fabric ailerons were not painted.

Perhaps a question for the tech forum but I've always wondered why Douglas and Lockheed had fabric ailerons and rudders on their piston airliners all the way up to the DC-7C and 1649A Starliner? Did they use ceconite for those control surfaces?

I don't recognize any servo-tabs in the photos (see: inboard aileron in a Boeing 707.) I'm assuming the DC-7C didn't have a 3,000 psi Skydrol hydraulic system for boosted controls so perhaps the fabric was better back in the day of bell cranks and counter-weights?


User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1034 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3943 times:

I can answer that for you, old airplanes are my specialty!

Fabric was used because it was easier to counter-balance because of weight. Later post war piston designs like the Convairs had all-metal surfaces Cotton was used initially, Ceconite and other synthetics didn't come along until the early 1960s.

Piston aircraft used ML-5606 mineral based hydraulic fluid (the red stuff) instead of Skydrol. You are correct, none of the Douglas four-engine transports had hydraulically-boosted flight controls. IIRC the DC-6/7 had a semi-servo tab system similar to the DC-8 elevator system; control wheel movement initially moved the control surface then the servo tab started to assist.


User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6707 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (9 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3888 times:

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 18):
I don't recognize any servo-tabs in the photos

Flight says they have "aerodynamic tabs"

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1956/1956%20-%200907.html


User currently offlinetridum From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3776 times:

I have one other question (at the moment) concerning the exterior appearance of NW DC-7C's. The crown of the planes is a gloss white, with a bare metal underbody. However, looking at a decal sheet of DC-6's it appears that the area around the tail skid was white. Is this true of the DC-7C's and if so did they retain that for their entire career?

There is one other general question about NW I have: It appears that NW was 'Northwest Orient" in the 50's, then became "Northwest" in the 60s, then "Northwest Orient" again in the 70s and finally settling on "Northwest" until their takeover by Delta. Why did the airline seemingly change its name back and forth or was the pre-60's "Northwest Orient" an unofficial recognition?

[Edited 2013-07-16 22:28:06]

User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2058 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3714 times:
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Quoting tridum (Reply 21):
Is this true of the DC-7C's

No. Underside should be plain aluminum.

Quoting tridum (Reply 21):
Why did the airline seemingly change its name

Competition. the term "Northwest Orient" was an unofficial term used fifties, sixties and seventies. NW was key in the pipeline for equipment and personal in the Asian theater during WWII. This also included outstanding service in Alaska for the military. So NW was compensated with route awards to Japan and other Pacific destinations. It was NW who helped to re-establish a Japanese air line system after the war. (With Martins  Wow! and DC-4's).

PA did not take this "invasion" into it's long-standing "turf" lightly. Competition was furious. Equipment and service standards were the "ammunition" of the day.NW pulled off what was then a pretty amazing feat (considering they had come within a whisker of bankruptcy) and matched PA's equipment standards (actually scared PA's mule with the 1049G's) but, PA already was a household name in the minds of those Americans lucky enough to travel in those days. NW had to have a gimmick to get their name up on the "radar". So the Sales Dept. came up with the Northwest ORIENT Airlines lingo. There was a catchy little jingle on the radio and on television. Some may recall the sounding of the gong-----"Northwest Orient---"GONG"---Airlines". It worked. It made what had for years sound like a "regional" U.S. carrier into an "International" carrier in the minds of the traveling public. It didn't hurt the Hawaiian service either.

Once NW began to serve Europe and Great Britain the "Orient" moniker was quietly dropped, however years of using it had the desired effect and in the minds of experienced travelers NW was an "International" carrier.



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User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1255 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3702 times:

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 17):
.I do have an in service photo of Electra N121US without the red stripe,but also have a later photo in which it has the red stripe.

I was not aware that there had been a change. Unfortunately, N121US was only in service for a couple of months when it suffered structural failure over Tell City with the loss of everyone on board. Details of this accident can be found in Robert Serling's excellent (but hard to find) book called "The Electra Story."



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User currently offlinetridum From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3614 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 22):
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 22):
Competition. the term "Northwest Orient" was an unofficial term used fifties, sixties and seventies. NW was key in the pipeline for equipment and personal in the Asian theater during WWII. This also included outstanding service in Alaska for the military. So NW was compensated with route awards to Japan and other Pacific destinations. It was NW who helped to re-establish a Japanese air line system after the war. (With Martins Wow! and DC-4's).

PA did not take this "invasion" into it's long-standing "turf" lightly. Competition was furious. Equipment and service standards were the "ammunition" of the day.NW pulled off what was then a pretty amazing feat (considering they had come within a whisker of bankruptcy) and matched PA's equipment standards (actually scared PA's mule with the 1049G's) but, PA already was a household name in the minds of those Americans lucky enough to travel in those days. NW had to have a gimmick to get their name up on the "radar". So the Sales Dept. came up with the Northwest ORIENT Airlines lingo. There was a catchy little jingle on the radio and on television. Some may recall the sounding of the gong-----"Northwest Orient---"GONG"---Airlines". It worked. It made what had for years sound like a "regional" U.S. carrier into an "International" carrier in the minds of the traveling public. It didn't hurt the Hawaiian service either.

Once NW began to serve Europe and Great Britain the "Orient" moniker was quietly dropped, however years of using it had the desired effect and in the minds of experienced travelers NW was an "International" carrier.

PA seemed to have an issue with competition in general. Look at the fight between Howard Hughes of TWA and Juan Trippe directly after WW2 when Hughes wanted to expand TWA to Europe.
Did PA fight other airlines similarly? UA only started flying from San Francisco to Hawaii after the war if I'm not mistaken. Also there was Chicago and Southern (later Delta) flying from points inside the US to the Caribbean, CO to South America and I thought Braniff flew international routes in the 50s as well. All of these routes were in direct competition to PA.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3788 posts, RR: 29
Reply 25, posted (9 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3695 times:

Quoting tridum (Reply 21):
However, looking at a decal sheet of DC-6's it appears that the area around the tail skid was white. Is this true of the DC-7C's

The trapezoid-shaped painted area around the tail skid to which you presumably refer, below the port side horizontal stabilizer, is actually light gray (similar to if not same as today's 'Boeing Gray') and, based on photos I have seen, applies only to the port side of the of the lower fuselage. It is indeed seen on DC-7Cs as well as DC-6s.

Both types also typically if not universally have light gray painted areas on upper and lower wing surfaces over the areas where engine exhaust passes. On some photos (including one of a NW DC-7C) I also notice that the outer ~half of the horizontal stabs are painted light gray top and bottom (roughly in line with engine exhaust flow from inboard engines). In a photo of a DC-6B taken from below while on a pre-delivery flight I have also seen small light gray painted areas on the otherwise natural metal lower fuselage.

Although I am not aware of the 'official' explanation for the light gray painted areas on otherwise bare metal surfaces of DC-6/-7 propliners, it would seem reasonably safe to speculate that, based on the areas painted and subsequent practice in the jet age, the light gray paint was applied to DC-6/-7s (including NW DC-7Cs) to protect areas that are especially subject to corrosion and/or the effects of exhaust heat/soot due to their location.

[Edited 2013-07-17 09:09:54]

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5214 posts, RR: 7
Reply 26, posted (9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3688 times:

Quoting tridum (Reply 24):
PA seemed to have an issue with competition in general.

Juan Trippe felt Pan Am was the US's "chosen instrument", essentially an arm of the State Department. It had functioned that way during WWII, being all but part of the Army Air Corps especially in flying to South America, Africa, and Australia. The theory was that in exchange for flying uneconomic diplomatic routes, the airline would be protected and guaranteed profits on other routes. Post-war, things didn't play out that way; political pressure gradually allowed more and more competition.



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1034 posts, RR: 7
Reply 27, posted (9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3745 times:

There also was a certain amount of entitlement about Juan Trippe and Pan American. Since they had taken the financial and technical risks pioneering achievements like the Trans-Pacific routes, Trippe felt the spoils belonged to PAA alone.

User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1255 posts, RR: 6
Reply 28, posted (9 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3708 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 27):
There also was a certain amount of entitlement about Juan Trippe and Pan American. Since they had taken the financial and technical risks pioneering achievements like the Trans-Pacific routes, Trippe felt the spoils belonged to PAA alone

The fact that he had substantial enemies in high places in the federal government did not help, either, which is why he brought Najeeb Halaby onboard--to smooth out relations. It did not work and Pan Am was repeatedly denied domestic traffic rights. For more information on the entire story of Pan Am I highly recommend a book called "Skygods--The Fall of Pan Am" by Robert Gandt.



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User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1034 posts, RR: 7
Reply 29, posted (9 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3694 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 28):
The fact that he had substantial enemies in high places in the federal government did not help, either, which is why he brought Najeeb Halaby onboard--to smooth out relations. It did not work and Pan Am was repeatedly denied domestic traffic rights. For more information on the entire story of Pan Am I highly recommend a book called "Skygods--The Fall of Pan Am" by Robert Gandt.

Yes, PurserBoy "Skygods" is a terrific book, I enjoyed it more than even the late Robert Serling's airline histories.


User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3666 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 22):
Some may recall the sounding of the gong-----"Northwest Orient---"GONG"---Airlines."

It never fails to impress me as to the recollection of some Anetters. Even those of you who were born in the early to mid-fifties must have been "flying" Schwinn bikes with balloon tires when these commercials were made.

Note the uses of the pentatonic scale and the Chinese gong: http://myoldradio.com/old-radio-epis...cails-northwest-orient-airlines/13


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3788 posts, RR: 29
Reply 31, posted (9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3656 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 26):
The theory was that in exchange for flying uneconomic diplomatic routes, the airline would be protected and guaranteed profits on other routes. Post-war, things didn't play out that way; political pressure gradually allowed more and more competition.

In the immediate post-WW2 years, it seems that President Truman wasn't merely 'open' to considering the idea of ending Pan Am's monopoly in their main international 'spheres of influence'...he essentially demanded that PA be subjected to competition from U.S. airlines-to-be-named, in the trans-Pacific, North Atlantic and South America arenas. For some reason, I suspect that Truman, a no-nonsense type, besides being a staunch believer in a competitive marketplace, was, shall we say, rather irritated by Juan Trippe's well-deserved reputation for scheming and plotting to crush would-be competition on PA's monopoly routes.

Initially (in the late 1940s), with the exception of TWA and American Overseas Airlines from New York across the North Atlantic, PA's new post-WW2 competitors did not, technically speaking, compete directly with PA. Prior to 1951, Braniff's gateways to South America were HOU and MSY whereas PA flew south from NYC and MIA.

In the case of NW, their only trans-Pacific gateways to/from the U.S. (prior to 1969) were SEA and ANC -- which actually gave then-'upstart' NW an advantage over PA in that NW's U.S.-Tokyo flights operated via the considerably shorter Great Circle routing whereas PA's served Tokyo via the more circuitous (by 1600 miles) mid-Pacific routing, SFO-HNL-AWK-TYO. In addition, NW could offer 1-airline service to East Asia via SEA from New York, Chicago and other northern U.S. cities whereas, aside from SFO and HNL O&D traffic, PA depended on connections provided by other airlines to fill their trans-Pacific flights.


User currently offlinetridum From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3626 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 28):
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 28):
The fact that he had substantial enemies in high places in the federal government did not help, either, which is why he brought Najeeb Halaby onboard--to smooth out relations. It did not work and Pan Am was repeatedly denied domestic traffic rights. For more information on the entire story of Pan Am I highly recommend a book called "Skygods--The Fall of Pan Am" by Robert Gandt.

This would explain why PA did not fly to domestic cities, save Chicago and (maybe?) Detroit.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 33, posted (9 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3521 times:

Quoting tridum (Reply 24):
and I thought Braniff flew international routes in the 50s as well. All of these routes were in direct competition to PA.

I don't think any of Braniff's nonstop U.S.-South America routes were also operated by Pan Am. Braniff did initially compete directly with Panagra, the carrier owned 50-50 by Pan Am and the W.R. Grace shipping company. Braniff acquired Panagra in 1967.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3788 posts, RR: 29
Reply 34, posted (9 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3489 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
I don't think any of Braniff's nonstop U.S.-South America routes were also operated by Pan Am. Braniff did initially compete directly with Panagra, the carrier owned 50-50 by Pan Am and the W.R. Grace shipping company. Braniff acquired Panagra in 1967.

Braniff served mainly Colombia and the west coast of South America, even after acquiring Panagra. Pan Am's S.A. network was focused on Caracas, Brazil, Buenos Aires and Montevideo, to which they flew more direct and non-stop routings than Braniff. Until well into the 1970s, Braniff's flights to Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires took a less direct routing via the west coast of the continent, through Lima or Santiago de Chile. On the other hand, Pan Am never served the west coast cities of S.A. covered by Braniff, pre- and post-Panagra merger.

BTW...Braniff found their DC-7Cs to be well-suited to the hot and high conditions encountered at many of the points they served in South America...especially in crossing the Andes Mountains on flights between the east and west coasts of the continent.

[Edited 2013-07-17 16:22:15]

User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1255 posts, RR: 6
Reply 35, posted (9 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3469 times:

Quoting tridum (Reply 32):
This would explain why PA did not fly to domestic cities, save Chicago and (maybe?) Detroit.



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They were originating and terminating points for international flights only--mostly from LHR. Pan Am never had any domestic travel until they acquired National Airlines.

Juan Trippe made some serious enemies starting with Truman up to and including Jimmy Carter. Originally Pan Am was awarded DFW-LGW rights, but Braniff fought it and Carter reversed the decision giving the route to Braniff. It really made sense--Pan Am had no way to feed the flight from DFW and Braniff had no trouble doing so with the domestic network.



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User currently offlineairtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (9 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3457 times:

Did the NW DC-7's have the range for SEA to HND non-stop or did they have to stop in ANC? My first commercial flight was on a DL DC-7 from TYS to ATL in 1966.....still remember that flight. They retired them shortly thereafter.

AT


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3788 posts, RR: 29
Reply 37, posted (9 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3380 times:

Quoting airtechy (Reply 36):
Did the NW DC-7's have the range for SEA to HND non-stop or did they have to stop in ANC?

In theory...maybe eastbound, contingent upon highly favorable conditions aloft. In 'the real world'...no. Based on my NW timetables from 1957 to 1960, inasmuch as ANC is not shown as a stop on SEA-TYO v.v.it appears that pilots may have had the option to operate the 4800 mile route non-stop, conditions permitting. From what seem to be reliable sources, in reality the route was rarely to virtually never if ever flown non-stop by NW's DC-7Cs. Besides the (apparently) optional refueling stop at ANC, NW also maintained a refueling/tech stop base on Attu Island (located at the westernmost end of Alaska's Aleutian Islands chain) that was used at times, perhaps in place of (or in addition to) ANC. Whereas SEA-ATU-TYO mileage is the same as that of SEA-TYO nonstop via the Great Circle (shortest possible) routing, SEA-ANC-TYO by comparison added just over 100 miles.

Interestingly, when NW's first jets (DC-8-32s) entered service on SEA-TYO, ANC is shown (in NW timetables) as an intermediate stop with specified arrival and departure times whereas flights that (briefly) continued to be flown by DC-7Cs after the arrival of jets showed no stops between SEA and TYO.


User currently offlinetridum From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3335 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 13):
The" DC-7C" remained on the tail. It was never changed to "CF" as many other carriers did when theirs were converted.

I was doing a search on ebay of "Northwest DC-7C" and came across a postcard of what appears to be tail N291 without the "DC-7C" on the tail. Based on the paint scheme it looks to be from the mid 60's, however the postcard is undated. Is it possible that some of the DC-7C's had the title removed from their tail near the end of their careers?


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2179 posts, RR: 12
Reply 39, posted (9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3247 times:

Quoting tridum (Reply 32):
This would explain why PA did not fly to domestic cities, save Chicago and (maybe?) Detroit.

The best way to describe PA's route network is that Chicago and Detroit were the only "inland" cities they flew to on the US Mainland prior to deregulation. I think every city other than Chicago or Detroit that PA served in the 48 US State mainland was on, or very close to, the Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, or Gulf of Mexico. The one exception was Dallas, which was served briefly in the mid 1970s with DFW-HNL 747 SP flights. Interestingly, PA's CHI, DTT, and DFW authorities all came from AA; CHI and DTT when PA bought American Overseas Airlines, and DFW as part of the AA / PA route swap.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 35):
Pan Am never had any domestic travel until they acquired National Airlines.

Pan Am was not allowed to carry passengers within the 48 US State mainland until 1976. In 1969, Pan Am was awarded New York - Los Angeles / San Francisco authority, but no local JFK-LAX/SFO passengers could be carried - just passengers flying from JFK to Asia / Australia / Hawaii, or California to Europe / Africa. Prior to 1969, Pan Am could not fly from New York to California on a scheduled basis; PA relied on AA and UA to bridge the gap.

In 1976, Pan Am was awarded local traffic rights on DTW-BOS. DTW-BOS was previously an AA monopoly, but PA was given the right to carry local passengers between the two cities, on flights that flew DTW-BOS-Europe. North Central was also awarded DTW-BOS authority, with full turn around rights.

Just before deregulation was passed, PA was allowed to carry local passengers on several other routes, but only on flights leaving the 48 state US mainland. I will check my copy of PA's 1978 annual report tonight for the list of the routes.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4843 posts, RR: 19
Reply 40, posted (9 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3204 times:

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 30):
It never fails to impress me as to the recollection of some Anetters. Even those of you who were born in the early to mid-fifties must have been "flying" Schwinn bikes with balloon tires when these commercials were made.

Heck, I remember those NW Orient TV commercials embedded in the 10pm news in Chicago. They were on channel 2, and they would usually alternate them with ads from the Santa Fe Railway advertising the Super Chief/Ed Capitan service from CHI-LAX.
Probably around 1963-64.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6707 posts, RR: 7
Reply 41, posted (9 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3175 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 37):
NW also maintained a refueling/tech stop base on Attu Island

More likely Shemya?

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 39):
Prior to 1969, Pan Am could not fly from New York to California

PA transcons started 1967 or '68.


User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6707 posts, RR: 7
Reply 42, posted (9 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

Quoting tridum (Reply 21):
It appears that NW was 'Northwest Orient" in the 50's, then became "Northwest" in the 60s

Timetables always said Northwest Orient, didn't they?


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3788 posts, RR: 29
Reply 43, posted (9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3112 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 41):
More likely Shemya?

Thank you for noting...NW's Aleutian refueling/tech stop was indeed at Shemya rather than Attu. The total mileage of the routing SEA-SYA-TYO is also the same as SEA-TYO non-stop via the Great Circle routing.

Quoting timz (Reply 42):
Timetables always said Northwest Orient, didn't they?

Before 11/1/46 No
11/1/46 - 7/5/50 Yes
9/6/50 - 4/26/53 No
7/1/53 - 6/5/86 Yes
10/1/86 and after No

(dates are based on "effective from" dates shown on covers of actual NW-issued timetable images)


User currently offlinesuperjeff From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3097 times:
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Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 10):
I was friends with the NW purser that was on the DC-7 that ditched in Manila Bay. He used to love to tell the story about how after the ditching, the company contacted him not to find out if the cabin crew were OK but they wanted to know the numbers on the liquor kits! True story.

Boy does that sound like Northwest! Don Nyrop was know to be somewhat of a carmudgeon. The rumour I had heard was when NW built a new corporate headquarters at MSP, they asked the employees if they wanted windows OR air conditioning. The employees voted for AC, so the building was built with no windows. So i can believe this!


User currently offlinesuperjeff From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3092 times:
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Quoting tridum (Reply 24):
PA seemed to have an issue with competition in general. Look at the fight between Howard Hughes of TWA and Juan Trippe directly after WW2 when Hughes wanted to expand TWA to Europe.
Did PA fight other airlines similarly? UA only started flying from San Francisco to Hawaii after the war if I'm not mistaken. Also there was Chicago and Southern (later Delta) flying from points inside the US to the Caribbean, CO to South America and I thought Braniff flew international routes in the 50s as well. All of these routes were in direct competition to PA.

Trippe was a rough competitor. But note that before the war, PA was probably the only carrier (besides BOAC/Imperial Airways) that had equipment capable of flying either Transpac or Trans-Atlantic.

C&S flew to various Caribbean points over New Orleans, a "hub" that remained until DL set up an Atlanta hub in the early to mid '70's and moved everything there. Braniff was the US flag carrier to the West Coast of South America (largely over Miami, but with some flights out of New Orleans and SFO/LAX; in 1967 they bought Panagra (1/2 owned by Pan Am) from W..R. Grace and PA and merged it into their own operation. What is now American's South American network is largely the remnant of the old Braniff system, which had a major hub in Lima.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 46, posted (9 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3046 times:

Quoting superjeff (Reply 45):
C&S flew to various Caribbean points over New Orleans, a "hub" that remained until DL set up an Atlanta hub in the early to mid '70's and moved everything there.

DL's only nonstop Caribbean service (to SJU) as late as December 1979 was from MSY and MIA. It doesn't look like they obtained rights to move the MSY route to ATL until sometime in the early 1980s.

The other Caribbean (and Venezuela) destinations inherited from the C&S merger were dropped by DL sometime in the mid-1970s.


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2058 posts, RR: 20
Reply 47, posted (9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2993 times:
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Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 37):
pilots may have had the option to operate the 4800 mile route non-stop, conditions permitting.

Hahaha. It went something like "top off the oil and check the gasoline". You might just have the fuel to make it but on a -7 you could find out fast it's the oil that dictates how much range you have left!



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1011 posts, RR: 3
Reply 48, posted (9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2942 times:
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Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 39):

The best way to describe PA's route network is that Chicago and Detroit were the only "inland" cities they flew to on the US Mainland prior to deregulation.

Northwest Airlines would fly a PanAm 707 between MSP and DTW, both ways in the early 1970s, and PanAm would fly the aircraft to Europe and back. It was called an interchange.   


User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1034 posts, RR: 7
Reply 49, posted (9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2930 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
DL's only nonstop Caribbean service (to SJU) as late as December 1979 was from MSY and MIA. It doesn't look like they obtained rights to move the MSY route to ATL until sometime in the early 1980s.

Delta did fly non-stop LAX-SJU in the early 1970s. I think it only lasted a few years.

http://www.departedflights.com/DL030173.html


User currently offlinebrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2991 posts, RR: 5
Reply 50, posted (9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2905 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 47):

Hahaha. It went something like "top off the oil and check the gasoline".

And I thought people only talked about old cars like that! Great stuff thanks for sharing!



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1255 posts, RR: 6
Reply 51, posted (9 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2847 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 39):
Pan Am was not allowed to carry passengers within the 48 US State mainland until 1976. In 1969, Pan Am was awarded New York - Los Angeles / San Francisco authority, but no local JFK-LAX/SFO passengers could be carried - just passengers flying from JFK to Asia / Australia / Hawaii, or California to Europe / Africa. Prior to 1969, Pan Am could not fly from New York to California on a scheduled basis; PA relied on AA and UA to bridge the gap.

This is very true. Braniff International was the same--flights that originated in South or Central America stopped in MIA then continued on to IAD or JFK but they did not have local authority on those routes. Even non-revs were not allowed to ride on those segments.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3788 posts, RR: 29
Reply 52, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2455 times:

Quoting airtechy (Reply 36):
Did the NW DC-7's have the range for SEA to HND non-stop or did they have to stop in ANC?
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 47):
It went something like "top off the oil and check the gasoline". You might just have the fuel to make it but on a -7 you could find out fast it's the oil that dictates how much range you have left!

In sorting through my Northwest timetables and brochures, came across a multi-page detailed system route map dated c. 1955 (one year prior to arrival of DC-7Cs, when L-1049Gs were NW's longhaul 'flagship') showing several possible routings between Seattle and Tokyo, none of which are non-stop:

SEA-ANC-TYO
SEA-SYA-TYO
SEA-ANC-SYA-TYO

Plus routings via a third possible tech stop, Chitose (Sapporo), Japan, of which I was not previously aware:

SEA-SYA-CTS-TYO or
SEA-ANC-SYA-CTS-TYO

Since all of NW's timetables I have seen that feature DC-7C service show SEA-TYO flight schedules with no intermediate stops (or even footnotes regarding tech stop[s])... Even though NW's -7Cs very rarely if ever operated non-stop in either direction... looks like actual routings included anywhere from one to three intermediate tech stops... on an 'as needed' basis(?)


User currently offlinecubastar From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 397 posts, RR: 5
Reply 53, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2136 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 47):
You might just have the fuel to make it but on a -7 you could find out fast it's the oil that dictates how much range you have left!

Absolutely! Those Wright 3350's leaked like a sieve. During a walk-around, most tried not to walk directly under an engine. Of course, if the wind was blowing you didn't have a chance not to catch several black spots on your white shirt. You were NEVER able to get them out no matter how much bleach. Everyone could tell that you were a DC-7 flight engineer when you were in the Pilots lounge with no coat on by the number of your spots on your shirt.

Quoting brons2 (Reply 50):
And I thought people only talked about old cars like that! Great stuff thanks for sharing!

Well, there are a few of us old timers left on here so we have to get a word or two in sometimes.

To add a little about the DC-7s. They really were nice planes (some of them even had an AUTOPILOT!) but the Wright engines were always a little touchy. When the 7s were first introduced there were a lot of early problems with the power plants. I think I can recall one time Delta had one DC-7 inbound with 1 shutdown, 1 very low on oil, and one running rough.

Also, and I know this is true, there was a 7 taking off out of STL and just shortly after getting airborne, all 4 engines starting running very rough, CHT's pegged out in the red zone and some backfiring. They were able to nurse themselves around the field get safely on the ground. All four Wrights had gutted themselves due to the wrong fuel being loaded in STL. They needed 115/145 av. gas but got the lesser one (I forget....110/115 ?? Only 4 engine change incident that I can remember other than the BA 747 that ran through the ash cloud.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2880 posts, RR: 7
Reply 54, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2118 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 49):
Delta did fly non-stop LAX-SJU in the early 1970s. I think it only lasted a few years.

Yes, it was a DC-8 routed SFO-LAX-SJU.

Quoting timz (Reply 41):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 39):
Prior to 1969, Pan Am could not fly from New York to California

PA transcons started 1967 or '68.

What am I missing? PA wasn't allowed to carry local traffic in the CONUS until deregulation. Unless you are referring to something like JFK-SFO-HNL-HND or something like that. They would have been allowed to carry local traffic from JFK-California even in 1969.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 55, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2102 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 54):
Quoting timz (Reply 41):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 39):
Prior to 1969, Pan Am could not fly from New York to California

PA transcons started 1967 or '68.

What am I missing? PA wasn't allowed to carry local traffic in the CONUS until deregulation. Unless you are referring to something like JFK-SFO-HNL-HND or something like that. They would have been allowed to carry local traffic from JFK-California even in 1969.

No, they were not permitted to carry local traffic JFK-California until the late 1970s. They could only carry traffic originating at or continuing to an international destination (with or without a stopover at LAX/SFO). They also were not then permitted to carry traffic between the east coast of the U.S. and Hawaii.

Since you mentioned 1969, see their June 1, 1969 timetable here:
http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/pa/pa69/

Although Pan Am had a daily JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO 707 then (a sector of an international flight), note the traffic restrictions at the bottom of page 29 of the timeable (page 15 of the PDF). The relevant one reads as follows:

Cities in USA
No wholly domestic traffic carried by PA between cities in the Continental USA (except traffic between Seattle/Portland and Alaska) and between cities served by PA on the East Coast of Continental USA and Hawaii.[/i]

[Edited 2013-07-29 13:04:45]


[Edited 2013-07-29 13:06:15]

User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2880 posts, RR: 7
Reply 56, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 55):
No, they were not permitted to carry local traffic JFK-California until the late 1970s.

Yeah, I mistyped. I meant to say " They wouldn't have been allowed to carry local traffic from JFK-California even in 1969."

I forgot the "n't" part of wouldn't.

I don't recall off-hand if PA did have an JFK-LAX or JFK-SFO tag-ons back then. But as you state, and I meant, PA couldn't carry local traffic anywhere in CONUS until deregulation.


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2058 posts, RR: 20
Reply 57, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2000 times:
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Quoting tridum (Reply 5):
Did Northwest modify the paint scheme

Since you drew my attention to it-----i found a photo taken at DTW dated 1965 and there is a -7 in the background WITHOUT the "DC-7C" lettering on the tail. The angle is such that I cannot get the tail number. I don't think too many made it to the paint shop for this change before being sold off.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinetridum From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (8 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1792 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 57):
Since you drew my attention to it-----i found a photo taken at DTW dated 1965 and there is a -7 in the background WITHOUT the "DC-7C" lettering on the tail. The angle is such that I cannot get the tail number. I don't think too many made it to the paint shop for this change before being sold off.

As I look at this scheme, it would seem that NW was trying to bring all of their planes together in a common scheme. The modified scheme is similar to that of the DC-8's, 707's and 720's. Apparently, as you stated NW didn't feel it necessary to continue painting older planes in the newer scheme.
As a side note, why did NW retire the DC-8's after only 3-4 years of service?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 59, posted (8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1679 times:

Quoting tridum (Reply 58):
As a side note, why did NW retire the DC-8's after only 3-4 years of service?

They preferred to standardize on the 707, and their 707-320B/Cs were more capable than the early model non-turbofan DC-8-32s. NW had ordered 5 DC-8-51s but they weren't taken up and went to other carriers (mostly AZ and KL I believe). The 707s also had a lot of commonality with NW's 720Bs. Donald Nyrop, NW's CEO at the time, was very big on standardization and cost-cutting.


User currently offlineredtailsforever From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (8 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1631 times:

Quoting tridum (Reply 58):

Douglas had promised Donald Nyrop the DC-8 could do SEA-TYO nonstop. Similar to the MD11 with AA in the 90's, they were short on range. You don't mess with "the Don", so the rest of the ordered was cancelled. Most of the received planes sold to National.


User currently offlineTW870 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1549 times:
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Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 52):
Even though NW's -7Cs very rarely if ever operated non-stop in either direction...

Interestingly, ORY-SFO is 686 nautical miles further than SEA-TYO. TWA operated once a week non-stops on both ORY-SFO and LHR-LAX in both directions in 1957-1959 era with the L1649A. I am guessing the westbound TWA flights almost never made it non-stop. But I didn't realize the Starliner had a significant range advantage on the DC-7C, which from this discussion it sounds like it did as NWA rarely made it non-stop either way on their long haul. Although clearly the most relevant detail is the R-3350's immense quirks. How the engines were running on a given day had much more to do with non-stop capability than the design range of the aircraft and engine combo.


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2058 posts, RR: 20
Reply 62, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1472 times:
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Quoting TW870 (Reply 61):
the Starliner had a significant range advantage on the DC-7C, which from this discussion it sounds like it did as

Yes and also traded speed------which was a MAJOR sales issue back in the day.

Quoting TW870 (Reply 61):
How the engines were running on a given day had much more to do with non-stop capability than the design range of the aircraft and engine combo.

Correct.

[quote=redtailsforever,reply=60]Douglas had promised Donald Nyrop the DC-8 could do SEA-TYO nonstop

Yes. There was much more to things than meet the eye as well. The loss of a -7 with a load of military personel on board and the fallout from that crash strained the relationship Douglas once had with Nyrop. The main reason Nyrop went with the -8 was Douglas had long been a supplier of various aircraft to NW and was a known entity. Boeing, on the other hand, was a supplier associated with the former (Hunter) management, and at that time had yet to set-up the kind of customer service system they became known for after the introduction of their jets. Also the -377's had not been trouble free as well especially when compared to the reliability of the -6B airframe/powerplant package.

As mentioned in a previous post, Douglas overpromised on the performance expected of the -8. Early on there were also some issues that had to be ironed out concerning the climb characteristics of the -8 at mgtow which was what NW was trying to do to make long distance over water flights. So add these developments with the already extremely stressful couple of years dealing with the L-188 debacle and you can see why Nyrop was ready to start with a clean slate!



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineTW870 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1388 times:
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Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 62):
So add these developments with the already extremely stressful couple of years dealing with the L-188 debacle and you can see why Nyrop was ready to start with a clean slate!

Yeah I've read that Nyrop was extremely cantankerous during the Electra crisis, and in fact more so than the Braniff folks who had also lost an Electra to aerodynamic flutter. I believe that Nyrop actually got Lockheed to give him back some of the the -377s that had been traded to Lockheed for Electras in 1959. I am not sure if they actually re-introduced the Strat in 1960.

Thanks for all the info in the above post. It looks like Nyrop's famed conservatism is why NW opted not to push the -7C to the very edge of the envelope like TWA was doing with the Starliner.


User currently offlinesmilinjack From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 8 posts, RR: 1
Reply 64, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1364 times:

As a side note, I flew the DC-7C as F/O in 1966/67 for Zantop Air Transport. We got them from PanAm, and flew them from the west coast to Nam. Good airplane, with touchy engines.

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