behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4654 posts, RR: 43 Posted (5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16355 times:
Emirates has officially announced today that they will be further increasing frequencies on its popular Bangkok route effective 27OCT13 with the launch of a new 6th daily frequency.
The new service is operated by a B772ER departing DXB at 1520 and returning back at 0545 (local time) with a quick 90 minute turn around at BKK airport.
FYI in 2012, the market size demand between DXB and BKK itself was 310,000 passengers and the top routes that feed EK's BKK bound flights via DXB are Paris, Hamburg, London, Nice, Manchester, Dusseldorf, Frankfurt, Kuwait, Copenhagen and Milan !
mdavies06 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2009, 363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16058 times:
With the right equipment EK has managed to grow the route in the past few years. However, with the B787 and A350 coming into the market over the coming years, I'd expect more Euro carriers coming back to Thailand as these airplanes will help to make the Thai market more attractive for them to operate.
AF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 195 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 15968 times:
No wonder why, at the same time, we see European legacies reducing frequencies and going there with high density planes
Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 2): However, with the B787 and A350 coming into the market over the coming years, I'd expect more Euro carriers coming back to Thailand as these airplanes will help to make the Thai market more attractive for them to operate.
I have my doubts. If the yields are still very low, it won't be much more profitable to fly the B787/A350 than a crammed 10 abreast B77W. It might help reduce the gas bill, but without more premium traffic, European carriers will keep struggling
cedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 7804 posts, RR: 54 Reply 5, posted (5 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 15531 times:
Current schedule, with new flight slotted in - outbound is a perfect fit but they already have an 05:45 arrival back at DXB, obviously there'll be a reshuffle or I've misunderstood - but you can see the existing frequencies anyway.
Quoting g500 (Reply 4): For Emirates Europe is the gift that keeps on giving
I would argue that for Thai tourism, Emirates is the gift that keeps on giving, no way this volume of traffic existed before Emirates. One or two airlines may have dropped out - SAS? - and yields for the legacy carriers may have dipped, but this is mostly new traffic, punters who would have previously gone to Spain or Greece. Well done Emirates and well done Thailand, one of the world's most welcoming and nice cultures.
qf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2776 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (5 months 2 days ago) and read 14840 times:
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 5): obviously there'll be a reshuffle or I've misunderstood
EK419 comes in from SYD (and CHC), so isn't likely to change due to issues it would cause to the timings here. There will be more spacing in the southern summer to allow for daylight savings time here in Australia, which sees the flights shift forward a bit in both directions.
cityairline From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 671 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 13407 times:
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 10): Btw AUH-BKK is also Etihad's most lucrative route, three 777-300ERs a day each way
I was on a BKK-AUH flight a few months ago with a load of 124 passengers on a 77W (configured with 412 seats). Although one single flight doesn't say much, this load was extremly bad. I spoke to the crew who said that this flight was always quite empty due to bad timing on arrival, meaning no provided connections to Europe.
OM617 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 46 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12071 times:
Sorry, not directly in the business, but something doesn't add up for me:
Quoting behramjee (Thread starter): FYI in 2012, the market size demand between DXB and BKK itself was 310,000 passengers
310,000 pax per year = 850 per day
6 flights assuming they use only the 330-200, their smallest aircraft, means 1,422 available seats per day. (I'm sure they will actually use larger 777s or even 380s on at least a couple flights, right?)
Are they really willing to sacrifice at least 572 empty seats per day just to have, what, all possible connections to Europe/USA?
Quoting AF185 (Reply 3): I have my doubts. If the yields are still very low, it won't be much more profitable to fly the B787/A350 than a crammed 10 abreast B77W. It might help reduce the gas bill, but without more premium traffic, European carriers will keep struggling
Norwegian is scheduled to fly 787s to BKK from OSL and ARN, once weekly each. Are you saying you think this is doomed, or is their business model incomparable with the likes of SAS?
ASA From Bangladesh, joined Dec 2010, 569 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11709 times:
Quoting cityairline (Reply 12): I was on a BKK-AUH flight a few months ago with a load of 124 passengers on a 77W (configured with 412 seats). Although one single flight doesn't say much, this load was extremly bad. I spoke to the crew who said that this flight was always quite empty due to bad timing on arrival, meaning no provided connections to Europe.
I travelled MAD-DXB-BKK in April/May ... both BKK flights were 77Ws ... and both were about 60% full only. I am not sure if I got lucky and how can EK sustain so many frequencies?
mcogator From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 162 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11014 times:
Quoting behramjee (Reply 16): April-May is the ultra low season for both Europe and Asia bound demand hence you experienced such loads.
I made the mistake of going to Thailand in April of last year. It was miserably hot and humid outside, and I've been to Dubai in the summer and live in Florida. My wife and I would wake up at 6am to go walk around, and by noon we had to go back to the hotel because we were exhausted from the relentless heat. We did fly DL from NRT, and the flight was close to, if not 100% full.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11891 posts, RR: 100 Reply 18, posted (5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10948 times:
Quoting OM617 (Reply 14): Are they really willing to sacrifice at least 572 empty seats per day just to have, what, all possible connections to Europe/USA?
What do you mean empty? 50% to 70% of EK's seats will be connections *and* the best profit is with a load factor around 82%. In other words, EK should offer, with rounding 2000 to 3500 seats per day. If anything, EK has room to add more seats to BKK thanks to their connections.
Quoting OM617 (Reply 14): Norwegian is scheduled to fly 787s to BKK from OSL and ARN, once weekly each.
They should do well. I would expect frequency to rise quickly. I've stated before the #1 threat to the mid-east carriers is P2P. However, twice per week isn't real competition vs. 42 per week... (I'm giving Norwegian credit for connections too.)
cmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10602 times:
Quoting fcogafa (Reply 11): So what is Thai, BA etc doing wrong? Why do people prefer extending their journey by several hours to use Emirates?
It is some more hours but it isn't much more time... Thing is you're still leaving one evening and arriving the next. Those extra hours don't mean much to most people. The better service (perceived or real) and lower price (perceived or real) means more. There is much more to the equation than time and frequency.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11891 posts, RR: 100 Reply 21, posted (5 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10375 times:
I'd love to know the O&D points for EK's flights to BKK. I'd bet more are outside of Western Europe than many here assume...
Quoting fcogafa (Reply 11):
So what is Thai, BA etc doing wrong? Why do people prefer extending their journey by several hours to use Emirates?
Take a look at EK's connections. Due to relatively lower frequencies, EK is generally able to offer a more convenient connection for those not originating in a European hub (LHR, FRA, CDG, IST and AMS. MAD has no direct.... Does MUC have a flight?) It takes a large O&D market to fly that far.
Now charters will compete on a few flight a week basis... IMHO, that is part of the competition EK has done well against (thanks to frequency, the vacation may be the length that is best for the visitor). But there are too many O&D points in Europe sans a direct flight to BKK. For that, EK must only compete on the experience and price.
EK will pull travelers from Europe (including SVO, LED, and WAW), the mid-east, and some from Africa too. From Eastern Europe on over, there is some competition from IST, but otherwise they have a 'free ride.' So European customers are a bonus.
And those customers will not be considering a European airline...
Quoting OM617 (Reply 14): assuming they use only the 330-200, their smallest aircraft
EK has A380s, 77Ws, and 77Es on the route. I don't know all the metal used, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that EK starts with the 77E to BKK and up-gauges from there... See my post #18. EK will fly a HUGE number of connections. The 310,000 pax/year were for those staying in Dubai for at least a night. EK will most certainly have connections.
For Thailand, this is great news (more tourists). I personally wonder, why haven't I heard about a 2nd daily to HKT? They started service way back in December! Isn't it growing as well as planned.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11891 posts, RR: 100 Reply 24, posted (5 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8552 times:
This is one of the a.net threads where I come away learning quite a bit! I must say I enjoy those threads.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23): The problem is that the locally based legacy airlines can't operate routes like BKK profitably due to their cost structures.
Its not just that. EK has (IIRC) 33 European ports to pull passengers to transfer to BKK. They also have 18 cities in the mid east and 21 cities in Africa (plus Mauritas and Seychelles potential 'vacation to vacation' travelers) to connect.
How many cities in Europe have the traffic to go to BKK? Ok, I was shocked to count 21 cities in Europe already connected on the airline route mapper... But MAN, NCL, GLA, BHX, DUB, LYN, BCN, LIS, PRG, VCE, GVA, NCE, and HAM all lack direct service to BKK. All of them EK destinations...
If we assume 20 pax/day from each city, that is already 260/day.
In Africa, I was surprised to see on the airline route mapper six routes to BKK (but they are, in general, geographically closer and thus possible with smaller gauge flights). But that leaves another 15 EK could connect. Someone needs to explain to me why ZERO cities in Saudi are directly connected to BKK. I never expected to see that! That leaves 4 cities plus Sana'a in Yemen that EK could feed to BKK without direct competition.
Its not just price competition. EK has dozens of cities to draw feed where they offer the best frequency and fragmentation for connections. Build upon 310,000 O&D pax/year, that allows for this frequency.
I've posted how many times?!?
25 SCQ83: BKK is the "ultimate" ME3 destination for a variety of reasons. For instance, I now live in Paris (not a secondary city to say something ) and I will
26 Thomas_Jaeger: I did look at the Europe-Asia market in a lot detail last December for a study we published on ch-aviation. We also analyzed the non-stop capacity cha
27 lightsaber: Tough choice. Its amazing how pricey vacations are with family... I think the way EK helps is they are a numbers run company. If the numbers say add
28 AF185: Their business model is indeed different, with lower operational costs than legacies like SAS or AF. Norwegian has a good chance to make this route s
29 HELyes: Finnair still serves BKK daily in summer, 2x daily in winter. Carrying some package holidaymakers on scheduled flights helps in winter season.
30 ASA: I hear ya! It was hot indeed ... and HUMID, my god! Even DAC is nothing compared to BKK!
31 idealstandard: By and large, much, much cheaper. People are happy to add a few hours if they are saving a couple of hundred quid. Factor that into a family of four