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United Swaps SEA-NRT To 787; Rumor Close Crew Base  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25512 posts, RR: 50
Posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 21728 times:

Per GDS United will replace 777 service on Seattle - Tokyo market effective November with the 787.

Effective November 5th.
UA105 SEA-NRT 1210-1540
UA106 NRT-SEA 1835-1010

Also with this swap, its rumored the company will close down the pmUA Seattle 777 crew base which was hanging on solely thanks to the Narita flight.

The downgauge in capacity is likely no surprise as the Seattle route has long been one of the weaker ones especially off season, and now with partner ANA running the segment also.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecosyr From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 21714 times:

This is a little dissappointing. I get that they probably don't need all the capacity of a 777 on that route, but a 763 has the range, no? I thought the 787 would open up all these new routes that existing planes were either too large or didn't have the range to do, like AKL, SCL, etc.

I bet this one has more to do with losing 3 Intl Config 777 to HI config.


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6153 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 21702 times:

This sounds about right. Time to free up the 777 for a better utilized route in my opinion. This crew base has been making the walk up to the Guillotine for a while now. Good info LAX


"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1051 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 21701 times:

Seems like a smart move. Increase yields, offer a unique plane and use the 788 for its intended purpose of long thin routes (SEA>NRT, DEN>NRT). Of course, they can always upgauge the a/c to 789 in the future if demand dictates it. So now we know where the next delivered UA 788 is going to - recently taking flight at Paine I'm told so it won't be too far from home when finished.

User currently offlineCONTACREW From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21528 times:

I feel for the SEA sUA based FAs who will no longer have 875/876 to work in November, since this will be flown by the sCO side out of either the NTA (Newark Transatlantic), NLS (Newark Language Speaker), or HTA (Houston Transatlantic), HOS (Houston Other Speaker) FA bases.


Flight Attendants prepare doors for departure, cross check verify straps standby for all call
User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21480 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):

They would not necessarily would close the sUA SEA base because of this flight. The sUA BOS and LAS bases remain open and they don't have any int'l flying.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlinejetskipper From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21450 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 5):
They would not necessarily would close the sUA SEA base because of this flight. The sUA BOS and LAS bases remain open and they don't have any int'l flying.

That's very true for the flight attendants, however I would find it hard to believe that they would keep the pilot 777 base open considering SEA will no long have any 777 flights.


User currently offlineCONTACREW From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21451 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 5):
They would not necessarily would close the sUA SEA base because of this flight. The sUA BOS and LAS bases remain open and they don't have any int'l flying.

I assume he's talking about the pilots and not the FAs.

[Edited 2013-07-13 11:30:21]


Flight Attendants prepare doors for departure, cross check verify straps standby for all call
User currently offlinenutsaboutplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 496 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21447 times:

I am actually somewhat surprised that UA will continue to fly NRT out of SEA at all. I know there was some speculation (on A.net) about the route being dropped completely when ANA entered last year.


American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25512 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21416 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 5):
They would not necessarily would close the sUA SEA base because of this flight.

SEA was the only flight these guys have been doing.

For instance in August all they are doing is SEA-NRT-ICN runs.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 5):
The sUA BOS and LAS bases remain open and they don't have any int'l flying.

   

You are mixing apples and orange.

The only other 777 bases are LAX, ORD, SFO, and DC. No need to have a 777 base in a city with zero flights.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21366 times:

Quoting jetskipper (Reply 6):
Quoting CONTACREW (Reply 7):

Ah, I forgot UA had a pilot base in SEA. Thought it was just F/A's only.

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 8):

They have a long history of flying this route. I'm willing to bet it still makes money for them especially since this bean counting management team is keeping it around.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineDL747400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21213 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The downgauge in capacity is likely no surprise as the Seattle route has long been one of the weaker ones especially off season, and now with partner ANA running the segment also.

The fact that DL is now operating both SEA-HND and SEA-HND certainly didn't make life easier for UA. Sounds like the market is speaking.


User currently offlineroseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9661 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21173 times:

I think SEA makes sense for the 787. ANA joined the market and DL has increased capacity with the HND flight and up gauging seasonally to a 747 to NRT.

also with the DEN nonstop flight, there will be fewer connecting passengers through SEA since DEN O/D which was traditionally routed via SEA dried up.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 5):

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):

They would not necessarily would close the sUA SEA base because of this flight. The sUA BOS and LAS bases remain open and they don't have any int'l flying.


I assume the 757/767 pilot base will remain open also. SEA gets a lot of 757s still and as far as I know is one of only two cities that does the 757 A-checks.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17537 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21145 times:

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 11):

The fact that DL is now operating both SEA-HND and SEA-HND certainly didn't make life easier for UA.

I think DL has bitten off way more than it can chew in SEATYO, between its equipment changes that are all over the place and its higher exposure to low yield traffic, questionable AS flow, and the huge increase in capacity, it's just not sustainable.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 10):
this bean counting management team is keeping it around.

Right. Unlike all those successful US carriers that aren't a'bean countin' 



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2449 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21014 times:

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 11):

I think this hurt UA. It's been a 77E flight for a long while. Too bad UA never got a SEA-FRA working, or other Europe service.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25512 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 20968 times:

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 12):
I assume the 757/767 pilot base will remain open also.

SEA 757/767 crew base is tiny. Down to mere 22 Captains, and 21 FO's these days.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDL747400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 20885 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
I think DL has bitten off way more than it can chew in SEATYO, between its equipment changes that are all over the place and its higher exposure to low yield traffic, questionable AS flow, and the huge increase in capacity, it's just not sustainable.

I don't think that anyone should assume that DL is or will be filling their flights with primarily O&D traffic. There are still many, many cities in the USA without their own nonstop service to Japan. Many of these cities already have nonstop service to SEA, while those that don't could easily receive nonstop service from either AS or DL.

Make no mistake: DL is not looking to the low yield travelers. They have been and continue to be very successful in attracting the higher yielding business traveler, attracting and creating new elites, cementing the loyalty of existing elites and winning the coveted corporate contracts away from other carriers.


User currently offlineDL747400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 20766 times:

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 16):
I think DL has bitten off way more than it can chew in SEATYO, between its equipment changes that are all over the place

You are totally overlooking the fact that DL's equipment changes are one of the key elements of it's success: Matching supply with demand.

DL's diverse fleet gives it a significant advantage over the competition by providing them with more flexibility to put the right aircraft on the right route to match demand.

Been watching DL's stock price lately?

Tune in on Wednesday, July 24th to find out about DL's Q2 earnings.

Here's a hint: The engine is hitting on all cylinders.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17537 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 20617 times:

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 17):
You are totally overlooking the fact that DL's equipment changes are one of the key elements of it's success: Matching supply with demand.

You're jumping from "I don't think DL will be able to maintain this much capacity in SEATYO" to "I don't think DL is a well run airline", which is not the case. In fact DL probably has the strongest management team in the industry after US--regardless they still will have to rationalize their SEATYO capacity.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2415 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 20552 times:

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 17):
You are totally overlooking the fact that DL's equipment changes are one of the key elements of it's success: Matching supply with demand.

So what, exactly, do you make of UA reducing the 777 to a 787 in the market, especially with an immunized JV/revenue sharing partner also operating 787 service on the route?


User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 20486 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
Right. Unlike all those successful US carriers that aren't a'bean countin'

It would be one thing if they were bean counting and making money but they uh, aren't.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
I think DL has bitten off way more than it can chew in SEATYO, between its equipment changes that are all over the place and its higher exposure to low yield traffic, questionable AS flow, and the huge increase in capacity, it's just not sustainable.

They seem to be doing fine but believe what you want to believe.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlinenutsaboutplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 496 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 20201 times:

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 12):
also with the DEN nonstop flight, there will be fewer connecting passengers through SEA since DEN O/D which was traditionally routed via SEA dried up.

That makes a lot of sense, I had not considered the DEN-NRT addition as a possible player in the down-gauge.



American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1051 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 20069 times:

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 12):
I think SEA makes sense for the 787. ANA joined the market and DL has increased capacity with the HND flight and up gauging seasonally to a 747 to NRT.

also with the DEN nonstop flight, there will be fewer connecting passengers through SEA since DEN O/D which was traditionally routed via SEA dried up.

Right, Star is pretty well represented with 2x 787 out of SEA + the new DEN>NRT routing makes sense on the down gauge. So, there are 600 + seats on the 3 flights which is probably right for the market.


User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 19760 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
You're jumping from "I don't think DL will be able to maintain this much capacity in SEATYO" to "I don't think DL is a well run airline", which is not the case. In fact DL probably has the strongest management team in the industry after US--regardless they still will have to rationalize their SEATYO capacity.

Why? As long as we're making money, hand over fist, it really doesn't matter. We can afford to piss money down the drain at the moment as long as we're building market-share. As long as we're offering connecting service within Asia, NRT must remain in place as the primary TYO destination, while HND is purely to establish a foothold in the top-tier business fare demographics. Could there come a day when we drop NRT in favor of HND only out of SEA? Sure if we drop our interport routes and move them to SEA instead. Someday, we'll have to "simplify our model" but not now. The goal is to diminish UA's foothold on the TYO market out of SEA. I think we're beginning to see that take place.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17537 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 18402 times:

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 23):
while HND is purely to establish a foothold in the top-tier business fare demographics.

HND is there to maintain the allocation and lose the least amount of money possible at the same time.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 23):
The goal is to diminish UA's foothold on the TYO market out of SEA. I think we're beginning to see that take place.

I think UA is almost tangential in this case, as it is a JV with a hub on one end, whereas DL only has another airline's hub on one end. SEATYO, along with the other Asian destinations, is more about redrawing the Asian model for DL, as well as forcing AS' hand in the matter.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 20):

They seem to be doing fine but believe what you want to believe.

This SEP13 SEANRT is mostly 76W, whereas SEP12 was almost all 333.



E pur si muove -Galileo
25 United1 : It will be interesting to see where UA gets the 788 from...AFAIK they are only supposed to have 8 on property by November. LAX-PEK LAX-NRT DEN-NRT IAH
26 Max Q : another downgrade, shrinking to profitability !
27 Stitch : I'd have preferred a 767-300ER to keep Global First, as I really like the cabin crews on UA875 and 876, but I'll just move to NH's 777-300ER (be it fr
28 KingAir200 : For product, not necessarily capacity. The A330 will be back as soon as there are enough in the new config.
29 wedgetail737 : All these armchair CEO's who choose to make the comments. They may be right but where's the data to show this. How do you know AS is not feeding DL's
30 DL747400 : I think it may be an indication that UA's immunized JV isn't as strong as some may think, at least in this market.
31 Cubsrule : What you are overlooking is that most of those cities are either tiny markets to Japan (EUG, GEG) or have a lot of other hubs over which they can con
32 United1 : I'm not sure how you can infer that...as you stated above SEA is used by DL as a connecting hub (DL and AS feeder flights) one would hope that DL can
33 PHX787 : Im not entirely surprised, as much as I was surprised at NH for sending the 787 there in the first place. But think about it, *A customers in the PacN
34 30west : FYI Might be one problem closing crew base, doesn't surprise me that Ual management doesn't know about it though From UPA LOA-25: Seattle Base Commit
35 United1 : UA also bases 767/757 pilots at SEA....as the rumored closing only would only effect the 777 pilots I'm not sure why you think there would be a contra
36 CONTACREW : All 787 flights are currently flown by sCO pilots out of the IAH base. No sUA pilots are 787 qualified.
37 30west : And there-in lies the rub, a grievance will be the outcome as you point out close the 777 pilot domicile but the contract says nothing about downsizin
38 United1 : It's around 20 of each right now....doubt if it will go any lower until the base closes. Kind of a logical end for it as the domestic 757 fleet conti
39 30west : Sorry I disagree on the running of the airline (compare it to DAL) operations Also, disagree on the employee side, how many joint contracts done in ho
40 hkcanadaexpat : Plenty of aircraft and then some... IAH-DEN-NRT-DEN-IAH-LOS-IAH needs 3 aircraft LAX-NRT-LAX-PVG-LAX needs 3 aircraft That takes care of current 6 fr
41 United1 : DL is not UA and UA is not DL....neither airline is expected to run the same way nor should they be. Just one....on both sides ....remember outside o
42 MaverickM11 : Seats in SEATYO have more than doubled over the past two summers. I guarantee you the market size has not doubled. So that means lots more flow, whic
43 United1 : Possible but not sure those two flights can be combined that way...PVG and NRT both leave about an hour apart from one another.
44 AVENSAB727 : I wonder what routes they could be? IAH will prolly get a new one.
45 MaverickM11 : It sure will. Straight to the moon. Right after all the hubs get a nonstop first.
46 AVENSAB727 : Of course, but it won't be to the moon.
47 hkcanadaexpat : Actually its almost 2 hours. Day 1: LAX-NRT 13:45-17:00 Day 2: NRT-LAX 19:30-13:35 + LAX-PVG 15:25-19:45 Day 3: PVG-LAX 22:10-19:20 In theory there's
48 United1 : Excellent...thanks for answering my question.
49 klwright69 : The move to a 787 on SEA-NRT should have been completely expected. I am surprised it didn't come before LAX-NRT. There is a lot of competition in both
50 Stitch : UA could have subbed in a 767-300ER years ago, but chose not to, so I am guessing the 777-200ER has proven over the years to not be completely unsuit
51 brilondon : Slightly off topic, but still related to this post: , Are they going to retire some of their crappy domestic 777? Are they going to replace some of th
52 fun2fly : United NRT Summary: 788's: DEN, LAX, SEA 777's: ORD, IAH, EWR, IAD, SFO, GUM (2x), SIN, BKK, ICN 744's: HNL, SFO 738's: GUM 2x, HKG Will any of these
53 CONTACREW : No the 6 domestic 777s + 3 additional 3-cabin 777s that did not receive the IPTE configuration are getting reconfigured to have 32J seats in a 2x3x2
54 MasseyBrown : That's like the "old" Continental of the Bethune and early Kellner days. It was said that CO always operated routes with a plane one size too small.
55 Post contains images 777ord : Im glad to see it be closed. If its not needed, trim the excess weight, and place those employee's where needed. It's not like they aren't commuters
56 LAXintl : UA seriously wanted to as the 777 was too big. There was a marketing plan and push to do SEA-NRT-SIN on the 763, but it ran across crewing legality i
57 mcdu : As pointed out to you by another poster there is a 756 base at sea and that conforms to the contract language. Closing the 777 type at sea is not pro
58 jayunited : This change of equipment does not hurt UA at all it helps UA by hopefully increasing UA's yield. Anyone who has followed this flight UA857 and UA876
59 ytib : Ask and you shall receive...
60 Post contains images MaverickM11 : I'm sure that will have the operational reliability of a Sudanese train
61 Post contains images Stitch : Yeah, fortunately I just used my iPad or MacBook Air. Though since the First Suites had the 8mm tape players, I often considered just recording some
62 Post contains links IrishAyes : Funny you say that. I flew UA 876 last October in BF. Indeed, old config, and since this was right around the Sandy period, UA sent a lot of IRROP EW
63 slider : Yup. Sounds like a perfect rightsizing of maket to gauge. Better to be one gauge too small than too big, usually. Good capacity discipline and a smar
64 777ord : Sadly its the only way for us to get to NRT in F/J... THe route is always packed from everywhere else, and from DEN, does have J open frequently, but
65 RDH3E : However, the ORD-SEA segment is frequently totally jammed. Combine reduced capacity with the fact that we've got double the management in CHI, and F/
66 STT757 : Getting back to the topic I think the 787 was meant for routes like this, long distance International away from hubs. The 3 class 777 would be better
67 LAXintl : LAX-LHR needs must stay on the 777 as long as LAX is a 777 base. Per base memo its status will be determined over the winter as Summer 2014 schedules
68 STT757 : It makes sense then when the 787 LAX base opens to move LAX-LHR to 787, the LAX 777 crews could be better utilized in growing the EWR 777 base. As fo
69 AVENSAB727 : I wonder what routes though, I can see new 787 routes out of LAX, EWR, IAH, DEN in 2014.
70 Post contains links and images point2point : per the recent Brooking Institute study http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2012/10/25-global-aviation pax to/from SEA/NRT-HND is roughly 300 p
71 tommy767 : EWR doesn't see that many 777s as it is -- a lot more 757 and 767 for international routes. If they want to more LAX based 777 folks, they are best u
72 MaverickM11 : About 1000 daily each way, up from about half that last June
73 CODC10 : 9x per day. LHR, TLV x2, DEL, BOM, HKG, PVG, PEK, NRT. As the fleet mix shifts, it is likely that some routes will be upgauged. BRU, FRA, possibly MU
74 STT757 : Wouldn't moving the sUA 777s and crews to EWR change that? Just for discussion some former CO EWR routes that operated with 777s: MXP, AMS, BRU, CDG,
75 LAXintl : And looks like SEA 777 crew base shoe is falling.... Per company notice. On Saturday, July 13, we loaded information into SHARES that changes the airc
76 sonomaflyer : The SEA 777 base will close at the two year mark unless the parties negotiate a side letter to close it earlier. I think we've seen over the last 10 y
77 mcdu : The contract only specifies a "base". Nothing precludes closing the 777 base at SEA. As long as the 756 base stays there til December of 14. The 777
78 mercure1 : Its interesting to see evolution in downgauge in capacity. I recall onetime UA had 744 going again NW 742 for SEA-NRT. I think 787 in Pacific could do
79 tommy767 : Ya, 9x 777 a day out of EWR? That's busch league compared to the other hubs. Those routes were 777 when CO had D10s and weren't doing super long haul
80 justloveplanes : On the topic of spares, I saw three 787's on Saturday the 10th, side by side at IAH at the Maintenance hanger around 9AM. Anyone know what that was a
81 codc10 : Sometimes I wonder why I respond to this nonsense, but care to qualify this? Other UA hubs, other airline hubs, etc? For example, if 9x 777s/day from
82 STT757 : Tommy keep in mind most of the EWR 777 flights are ultra long haul, each requiring more than one aircraft to support each route. For instance EWR-HKG
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