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ET 787 On Fire At Heathrow Part 4  
User currently offlinemoderators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 513 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 70479 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Hello All,

The previous thread has gotten quite large so Part 4 is being created in order to further the conversation.

Part 3 can be found here ET 787 On Fire At Heathrow Part 3 (by moderators Jul 12 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Please remember the Airliners.net forum rules when posting. Posts found in violation of the rules will be removed.

Regards,

The Moderator Crew


Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
322 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 70468 times:

Spacecadet, If the air conditioning unit was sparking and ET did not do anything about it then maybe fault will be shared between multiple parties. All I am saying is that I am withholding judgement until the info comes in.

tortugamon


User currently offlineEmission From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 70268 times:

I don't know if it means anything, but United just changed the equipment on tonight's Flight #135 (IAH-LAX) from a 787 to a 777... without explanation.

- Mike


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3255 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 70196 times:

Has ET-AOP been moved into the old BMI hangar with BA? It's not on the 590s anymore and that was the only hangar that was suspiciously closed on the hottest day of the year!

User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7152 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 69642 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 1):
Spacecadet, If the air conditioning unit was sparking and ET did not do anything about it then maybe fault will be shared between multiple parties. All I am saying is that I am withholding judgement until the info comes in.

Lets get real here. You see sparks on an aircraft, and you call the fire service. Someone did...

Quoting Emission (Reply 2):
United just changed the equipment on tonight's Flight #135 (IAH-LAX) from a 787 to a 777... without explanation.

Probably an unscheduled aircraft mx issue.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 69299 times:

Seems that Ethiopian is not grounding any of their other 787s and will continue to operate scheduled services with their Dreamliners.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23298349



"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 69177 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 4):
Lets get real here. You see sparks on an aircraft, and you call the fire service. Someone did...

Ok let me repeat myself too- the issue I see is that a fire happened, so any reporting on this frame happened too late. Or the reports fell on deaf ears, which I hardly believe, since anything related to the 787 would probably get immediate attention.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinecuriousflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 694 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 69128 times:

Is it a hull loss?

First 787 hull los?


User currently offlineCO953 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 182 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 69082 times:

As a "noob" who is trying to ask intelligent questions but doesn't have a lot of specific knowledge of CFRP, there's something I hope some of you vets could discuss for me:

I have seen discussion of repair vs. write-off.

I am an expert auto mechanic specializing in restoring vintage cars, including inventing fixes for all sorts of failure modes. So I am trying to contribute some "outside" perspective to airliners.net from someone who doesn't know airplane specifics but likes to solve mechanicalproblems.

My reaction is that the location of the burn, near the empennage, means that any repair would have to be done so as to have no question whatsoever about the strength of the fuselage in that area.

I know that metal can weaken and de-temper from heat. Can anyone here tell me the rubric for replacing the carbon-fiber sections? Is there a specific temperature that cannot be exceeded before it loses its strength or ductility?

The combination of having to replace complicated wiring, etc., and splice in new CFRP, would make me so leery of getting on the particular frame for the rest of its service life, depending on how well developed Boeing's repair plans were.

I said it two threads back, and I'll say it again (though as a "noob") - maybe Boeing should buy this frame back and use it as a test bed for CFRP repairs? Fix it - fly the heck out of it- then burn another section - fix it, fly the heck out of it, etc.

The only reason I say this is that I think it's easy to forget how revolutionary the use of the CFRP is. Boeing really does need to have a great handle on it. If the repair of a cracked rear bulkhead on a 747 can be botched at some point in the history of the 747... at some point, won't it be possible to botch a 787 CFRP repair? Shouldn't a gold-standard repair procedure be nailed down now?

Discretion is the better part of valor and though I'm ignorant of the inner workings of aviation manufacturers, as a "noob" Boeing boss I'd forget the PR and either buy this one back or take one of the spares and burn it up, repair it, and do a bunch of test flights to try to discover any performance problems at the repair area - specifically due to the heat damage to the CFRP and leaving aside whatever caused it. Confidence needs to be built in many areas.

Just one person's opinion, and I am trying to add to the discussion, so my intentions are good.

[Edited 2013-07-13 19:48:53]

[Edited 2013-07-13 19:51:26]

[Edited 2013-07-13 19:55:12]

User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 68568 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 1):
Spacecadet, If the air conditioning unit was sparking and ET did not do anything about it then maybe fault will be shared between multiple parties.

My point is that wouldn't be a maintenance issue, that would be a defect with the aircraft. The only part of an A/C system that should need to be changed after six months would possibly be the filters.

If ET saw sparks and did nothing, then yes, that would be negligence on their part, but I would not call it "poor maintenance". Failure to take action on a known and visible defect that could affect flight safety is arguably even worse than failing to properly maintain an aircraft, but it's not the same thing.

At a bare minimum, the distinction would explain why their other 787's are still flying. Poor maintenance is never only constrained to one airframe. But also, I would argue (and you seem to agree) that failure to take action on a defect would mean shared blame, whereas poor maintenance would be *all* ET's fault.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinewoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1031 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 68440 times:

ET does not have a history of poor mx, quite the opposite. This particular plane is more or less (more) brand new.

User currently offlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1145 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 68424 times:

Quoting CO953 (Reply 8):
maybe Boeing should buy this frame back and use it as a test bed for CFRP repairs?

You can be assured that Boeing (and Airbus) is well aware of how to perform CFRP repairs.

CRFP is nothing new, nor particularly revolutionary. Large chunks of airframes have been made from CFRP before and repair is hardly a mystery. It's not like a bunch of engineers woke up one day and said "CFRP sounds like a cool thing, let's use it." The 787 has more of it, but the repair principles remain the same as always.



Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2213 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 68265 times:

Quoting curiousflyer (Reply 7):
Is it a hull loss?

Most likely yes. For the skin to burn through in some places, a far larger area inside the crown will have suffered thermal stress, something that doesn't do any favors to the 'P' in CFRP.


User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1539 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 68054 times:
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Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 12):
Most likely yes. For the skin to burn through in some places, a far larger area inside the crown will have suffered thermal stress, something that doesn't do any favors to the 'P' in CFRP.

I say most likely "no' for all the reasons I have already cited


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9105 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 66704 times:

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 12):
Most likely yes. For the skin to burn through in some places, a far larger area inside the crown will have suffered thermal stress, something that doesn't do any favors to the 'P' in CFRP.

Even if they cannot replace the barrel section that was damaged, it would not be a hull loss as it was not during service.

Events like this that happen while on the ground, during maintenance, during non revenue operations like flight testing etc do not count as hull losses.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 66175 times:

Just to add some concrete information to the discussion: The following image is the seat map which is posted on the wall inside the airplane with the emergency equipments layout:



This is a detail showing the area in question:



I don't know how much it ads to the discussion but:

1. It basically confirms that the SeatGuru seat map shared earlier is correct (sometimes the SeatGuru maps can be way off).

2. There's no mention of a crew rest anywhere, implying that the information about no crew rest on the ET 788 is correct.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 65989 times:

And here's a picture of the starboard side of the plane, from row 36.



It basically shows that row 35 is missing a window in the general area where the fire seems to have occured judging by visible damage on the fuselage. I don't know what's in that area where the missing window is, or whether this has anything to do with the fire at all.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineseahawk From Germany, joined May 2005, 1050 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 65274 times:

There are 3 questions at the moment.

Where did the fire start?
What did cause the fire?
Why was it able to spread?

All 3 need to be answered.

Most interesting thing will be to see if the hull can be repaired. Considering that Carbon FRP already loses 20% of its strength when being heated to over 200-205°C, they might need to replace the whole rear fuselage.

http://archive.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/eng/ibp/irc/ctus/ctus-n74.html (for info on the temp. effects on CFRP)

[Edited 2013-07-14 00:58:09]

User currently offlineJRenavitz From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 64906 times:
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Quoting seahawk (Reply 17):
There are 3 questions at the moment.

Where did the fire start?
What did the fire cause?
Why was it able to spread?

All 3 need to be answered.

Why did it start as a 4th question?


User currently offlineslinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 838 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 64677 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 14):
Even if they cannot replace the barrel section that was damaged, it would not be a hull loss as it was not during service.

If it is not a hull loss, what would it be?


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 64351 times:

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 19):
If it is not a hull loss, what would it be?

A write off?

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9105 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 64337 times:

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 19):
If it is not a hull loss, what would it be?

As the aircraft was not involved in passenger operations at the time, information to date suggests it was sitting empty for almost 8 hours at a remote stand. The insurance terms of substantial damage or total loss would come into play.

For such an event to count towards the aircraft safety record, it would need to have been involved in private or commercial activity. Maintenance, test flights, hijackings, stowaways, acts of war etc are not covered by the aircraft accident statistics.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 64184 times:

It is interesting that some a.netters are willing to cast aspersions on ET's maintenance practices as a possible cause of the fire (never mind that the rest of their fleet does not appear to suffer from mystery fires that burn through the fuselage roof), while at the same time castigating others for "speculating".

I guess it is okay to speculate on anything other than the 787 possibly having more unknown electrical problems then?


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 63778 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 22):
I guess it is okay to speculate on anything other than the 787 possibly having more unknown electrical problems then?

I guess what's good for the goose is good for the gander.   Personally, I anxiously await more official information. Coffee pots, crack pots, crock pots, burning pot - all interesting diversions, but the reality is that the 787 program made it's' bed and now it has to lay in it. It's frustrating reading the extreme posts on both sides of the equation, but regardless of what we might want to be the outcome here, it will be what it will be.

Let's just hope that we find out soon.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently onlinelhrnue From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 63702 times:

Quoting seahawk (Reply 17):
There are 3 questions at the moment.

Where did the fire start?
What did cause the fire?
Why was it able to spread?

All 3 need to be answered.

Much less important, but I would like to know in addition:
Who or what detected the fire, within an empty parked aircraft.
Was the 787 parked with all doors open for ventilation, or did the firecrew open all doors.


25 ComeAndGo : In the first electrical fire it was the Italian partner Alenia that was castigated by A.netters for supposedly leaving behind a "Hammer" in the elect
26 hotplane : Doors are usually left shut, even during the summer.
27 Post contains images sankaps : Hotplane, I really got a chuckle (given your username) out of the fact you broke the news of this aircraft fire on a.net!
28 Bongodog1964 : If the fire damage is aft of the join between the fuselage and the tail section which it may well be, is it feasible to replace the entire tail sectio
29 PW100 : While I understand where you are coming from, sites like Aviation Safety.net do list ALL hull losses, including terrorist events, hangar fires etc. N
30 BestWestern : It is an attempt to deflect blame from Boeing by some. Even down to claiming to have seen official emails from boeing...etc. As i said earlier, these
31 Finn350 : Here is a quick summary of the few available facts thus far: 1. ET700 12 July 2013 from Addis Abada Bole Int'l (ADD), scheduled departure 03:30 AM EAT
32 CaptainKramer : RedChili, originally I believe a window was meant to be where the missing window is, in that Boeing had placed a window specifically where the fuselag
33 hotplane : Realized that myself yesterday! Quite like the flames coming from the little thread logo as well !
34 goosebayguy : I think any claim about poor maintenance by ET is complete twaddle. When RY buy their planes they have a 5 year complete maintenance programme by Boei
35 na : The one thing I hope for is that the fire is not aircraft type related. I have always wondered why the 787 doenst have a window there. Its a very odd
36 Stitch : I believe that is the join between Sections 47 and 48.
37 BoeingVista : Barrel join..
38 dougbr2006 : The rear section of the 787 is made up of three parts the tail cone section, then section 47 & 48 which are joined in front of where the window i
39 mcdu : Well said. There is a great amount of denial regarding potential issues with the plane itself.
40 RickNRoll : Given the little information that has come out so far, Boeing knows what happened, but they aren't saying, the plane is still flying, so the airlines
41 sankaps : Not necessary. They may still be trying to figure out what caused it. Groundings are not announced lightly for what might be a one-off. There were th
42 par13del : You do realize the massive implications if a grounding is recommended by the authorities, they have to ensure that all their ducks are lined up in a
43 glbltrvlr : I suspect AAIB and Boeing knew what caused the problem within hours of the event. The thing that takes a long time is following the causal chain back
44 glbltrvlr : Exactly. Although I would qualify it slightly. The people who actually know what happened at this point is a very small group. It would be safe to as
45 mcdu : It would be worse for Boeing to have no announcement as to the cause than to "out" an airline or someone. They are already have a an unknown cause fo
46 packsonflight : We can assume that if some foreign object like laptop or cellphone caused the fire we would have heard about that in the press release yesterday, so
47 airmad : Regarding circuit breaker protection of cabling and the assumption that breakers should clear the fault (overload or short circuit). There are some it
48 sunrisevalley : Did I misunderstand that all electric power was shut off... period. Or is this simply not possible since some power is needed at all times ??
49 sassiciai : I would be very surprised if an aircraft shut down by its crew had its APU powered on! Who would leave an aircraft (or even your own car) parked like
50 BestWestern : Boeing still don't know the cause of the battery problem, yet you expect them to have this solved within 24 hours of the aircraft entering a hangar..
51 hivue : The clock(s) have to keep running -- just like on your computer. I think there are emergency functions that need to have power available at all times
52 asctty : To everyone debating on here the implication of the fire on this aircraft, here is one absolutely clear fact - the cause of the fire is a yet unknown!
53 N243NW : Correct. This is typically referred to on Boeing aircraft as the Hot Battery Bus. This bus usually powers things like emergency lighting and fire pro
54 trex8 : there was a technical thread once where someone said in some planes (I'm not saying the 787) these areas on the cabin wall where a window is missing
55 sankaps : Interesting you chose this example. In the US, the usage is "BA is ordering...", in the UK it is "BA are ordering...". Both are accepted to be correc
56 kanban : again one instance determines "a history"? sounds like trolling to me. Re: ET mx.. my original question was ET mentioned the sparking and I for one w
57 DocLightning : Mr. Ostrower tweeted: "Can't find GPU's at Heathrow? 90% of stands have Fixed Electrical Ground Power. Ethiopian 787 was on FEGP." That settles that.
58 kanban : Did not know Jon read this page... My point remains I see no cables visible connecting the plane to a GPU or FEGP.. even if the fire dept. disconnect
59 robffm2 : Actually, that was reported by the FT. I saw it nowhere else. Quite surprising to hear from a manager that they knew there were sparks on the plane..
60 trex8 : And miswired 737s off the line. The point is just because the OEM made it/fixed it doesn't mean its perfect or necessarily better than someone else d
61 RedChili : Thanks, Stitch, and everybody else answering that question. With that knowledge in mind, and looking at the picture of the damaged roof, it appears t
62 hivue : What would be the reasons for a plane on a remote stand to be connected to GP? What systems would likely be powered up. A couple of parts back on thi
63 kanban : One might be that with a 33C temp (or so), one would want to cool down the interior before provisioning and loading.
64 SKGSJULAX : While the elimination of a window at the position of the barrel joint is a very reasonable explanation, isn't it the case that (at least in aircraft w
65 DocLightning : In the UK (and most of the Commonwealth, I suppose), singular companies or other group entities (e.g. "The government" or "My son's football team") a
66 Klaus : Which would likely mean that the actual internal damage might reach across the join. Not good if true.
67 Navigator : When looking at this incident it is pretty wise to look at the types history and the airlines history. This airline has as far as I know an excellent
68 DocLightning : Even if the investigators (who know more about this case than you or I) have already done that? I have to listen to what they say.
69 peterinlisbon : I'm just wondering, whatever the reason for the fire was, if it's likely that a 787 would just melt and break up in the air if there ever any sort of
70 pianos101 : They ruled out the main and APU batteries. There are obviously other batteries in equipment all over the airplane. It's between 46 and 47. There are
71 SonomaFlyer : I think the report when issued will address your question. The stated advantage of CFRP is it burns slower than aluminium. Apply that information to
72 Finn350 : We don't know yet, but it is very possible (or even probable) that an uncontained fire in the crown area could lead to a catastrophic event (i.e. a h
73 jetfuel : IF the 787 is to survive long term Boeing need to deal with this accident quickly. There has just been too many issues right from the day they announ
74 DocLightning : The DC-10 was a spectacularly successful aircraft in the long run. I'll just point that out. Anyway, I have no doubt that the folks at Boeing are wor
75 affirmative : If the GP was connected wouldn't that provide charging to batteries and thus current to the wires? IIRC there are 4 GP connections on the 787 two in t
76 BestWestern : I don't think it will come to that. The AAIB, is not a knee jerk institution. They will do what is best, on balance, for the safety of the flying pub
77 Viscount724 : It's still a hull loss if the aircraft can't be repaired.
78 Scooter : I disagree - the fact that Boeing hasn't said anything yet is what worries me the most. With all the pressure they've been under to put the battery/f
79 Viscount724 : As already mentioned, it's where fuselage sections join. There's also a missing window in the 787's forward fuselage for the same reason. I wonder wh
80 pnwtraveler : I hope it isn't a laptop or cell phone battery gone bad or there goes another thing to check when we go through security etc. Could be any number of t
81 kanban : Boeing may make an innocuous PR statement, however they will wait on the British authorities to set the tone.. Further if it is related to BFE, they'
82 glbltrvlr : As was mentioned earlier in one of the parts of this topic, a missing window isn't just an indication of a fuselage join. On the newer 737s they are
83 sankaps : Have to disagree there -- 386 deliveries is decent, but does not equate to spectacular. The A340 with 377 deliveries would then also be considered sp
84 1337Delta764 : Still, it outsold its closest competitor, the L-1011.
85 Post contains links Finn350 : For 787, the reason is the fuselage join. A raceway for wiring would most likely be positioned somewhere else than within the seating area of the cab
86 Stitch : When you include the freighter and convertible models, the DC-10 delivered 446 frames. I also think it not unfair to add in the MD-11 family, as it i
87 sankaps : Still does not make it spectacularly successful. It also suffered 32 hull losses and 1,261 fatalities; the A340 (deemed a failure by most) suffered 5
88 Post contains links and images Klaus : Indeed: http://www.cnet.com.au/boeings-787-d...mliner-in-the-making-339323073.htm And from earlier in this thread: The troubling thing is that the da
89 glbltrvlr : I understand. The question I was responding to was "Why would an aluminum aircraft have a missing window?" In rereading the post, I see what the OP w
90 Finn350 : Yes. I suppose that if the join is damaged the repair will be very difficult if not impossible. I am sure though Boeing will try everything to repair
91 asctty : My earlier post obviously did not prompt a response. I would like to try again. Does anyone on here actually know what was the cause of the fire? If n
92 sankaps : Fair enough, if you include the 60 that were made for the US Air Force as air-to-air refuelling tankers, it takes the total to 446. Still modestly su
93 Post contains links Rheinbote : The reason is that most metal airliners have their sections joined up using lap joins, while the 787 uses butt joins with a butt-strap splicing two s
94 Viscount724 : I'm aware of that. I was only referring to missing windows that result from fuselage joins where the 787 is the only current aircraft type that comes
95 AeroWesty : Nope, no cause has been given out by an authoritative source. (Probably why the thread has dissolved into grammar issues and exaggerations about past
96 hivue : Someone would have to be on board the aircraft to start the AC, correct?
97 Braybuddy : There seems to be no information about the damage inside the aircraft. While the photos seem to show no damage around the doors, given that CFRP burns
98 sankaps : The only thing known is the AAIB have said "at this point no indication of a direct causal relationship between the batteries and the fire" or words
99 SKGSJULAX : Thank you! I greatly appreciate the detailed response!
100 Stitch : We have yet to have confirmation that there actually was burn-through of the crown. People are assuming the dark areas are open holes in the structur
101 Klaus : As far as I can see, there is another replaceable barrel in front of the join – so if it should actually come to that, they could replace that as w
102 sassiciai : Is it the case that all 787s flying today have seats like this with no window?[Edited 2013-07-14 15:15:45]
103 Stitch : Yes.
104 glbltrvlr : IIRC, the 787 barrel is built up as a single entity, whereas the A350 uses composite panels attached to stringers. Perhaps slightly analogous to auto
105 pianos101 : From the picture, no, it doesn't appear that the visible damage reaches the join. That's purely based on the picture in your post. Yes.
106 sassiciai : OK, thanks! I only recall one flight (Swiss Bae146 from BRU to Zur?) where I was assigned to a seat in a row with no window I'm a bit claustrophobic,
107 Klaus : Yes, it does go right up to the edge of the join – and that is on the outside, meaning the heat on the inside must have been high enough at that lo
108 sankaps : I think most, if not all, widebodies have windowless window seats. The 747, 767 and 777 for sure, the A300 and A330 too. It is a bummer when you inad
109 glbltrvlr : Most of my long haul flights are at night or over the ocean and frequently with a cloud deck below. Little if anything to see. The only time I ever m
110 pianos101 : No it doesn't. The really dark burn is in the frame bay where the 2nd window is (sta 1644 to 1670). You can *slightly* see some brown in the bay with
111 sankaps : However on most wide-body aircraft, no window also means less elbow room and less space for your head / shoulders to lean into due to a solid flat wa
112 sankaps : Interesting that the AAIB has not released any pictures of the inside yet. In comparison, pictures of OZ 214's damaged interior were made available p
113 DocLightning : Given the growth of the market since the introduction of the DC-10, it is fair to say that 386 was very good run for the second-largest airliner in t
114 Klaus : I think you're wrong by one window given the perspective. What matters most is the structural testing anyway. Even if the internal join brace is affe
115 sankaps : Fair point, but does not change the fact that the DC-10 (and its successor the MD-11) were by no means considered "spectacularly successful", and tha
116 Aesma : When good info comes out (from Boeing or the AAIB) I hope there will be a heads up topic because I really can't follow this one, too long with too lit
117 zckls04 : Because such speculation is the purpose of a discussion forum. I really can't understand why people get so upset about forum members speculating abou
118 kanban : maybe because it's a bloody weekend and the problem occurred on the ground.
119 tortugamon : DKM at Flightglobal says ET chief says tech departmen thinks it was powered down. Still up in the air I guess. WSJ disagrees. tortugamon
120 7BOEING7 : It could well have been powered when it first arrived at the stand but it well could have been depowered and left plugged in. The fact (?) that it was
121 SonomaFlyer : The AAIB isn't the NTSB. They won't be holding daily press briefings and squirting out tidbits of information; P.R. isn't their main concern. I'd hop
122 aklrno : I don't understand the preoccupation with figuring out what the power status of the aircraft was when the fire was detected. It may be irrelevant. Fir
123 prebennorholm : Just as interesting is why no real information have come forward about what happened, or what theories the investigators are working on. At this stag
124 Post contains images par13del : In comparison to the first grounding where folks said they should take their time I agree with you, the barrel section in the picture has 4 windows,
125 Klaus : Crucial differences: • no people on board when it happened, consequently no injuries • incident did not happen during operation Maybe, but maybe
126 flood : They said they saw sparks. That doesn't mean there was no fire hidden from their view. We don't even know if the statement was accurate or taken out
127 Post contains images hivue : They were inside the aircraft perhaps? (Oops, I guess using "they" might irritate some of the grammar police.) Since the coffee maker rumor things ha
128 RickNRoll : Not at all, I completely agreed with the grounding due to the battery problems. By this stage, something would have come out if it was a fault with t
129 hivue : I believe someone mentioned that investigators labeled the fire as suspicious. If there's a chance it involved a criminal act, that could explain why
130 Daysleeper : I find it curious that the AAIB doesn't mention the rear galley, but specifically states that the upper rear fuselage suffered significant heat damage
131 Stitch : The plane has vents to evacuate smoke from the fuselage, so perhaps that was the point of egress?
132 BestWestern : Sir, we are not playing Cluedo.
133 Post contains images Daysleeper : *Hi Five* for trying to annoy the grammar police (The mods have thankfully trashed all their posts now) - Back on topic; There was no one onboard as
134 mcdu : Really? Can you elaborate on how this venting system works on the ground? I would be interested to know more about the system you are describing.
135 Post contains links spacecadet : I really get the impression that some people see this as a news site, and therefore any actual "discussion" (as in the back and forth that comes with
136 Stitch : I'm not categorically claiming there are no holes, I am just saying that from what I have read here (not really following the general media as I find
137 ComeAndGo : There's a picture further up in this thread where you can clearly see smoke emanating from the top of the fuselage.
138 BestWestern : I get the impression that some simply make things up or use bad logic to suit their agenda. For example No news from AAIB = No problems with 787 = Bo
139 7BOEING7 : No power, no positive flow venting.
140 RickNRoll : The picture I saw, not much doubt there was a hole there.
141 Post contains images Stitch : In the absence of close-up, high-resolution photographic or video evidence of the affected area, I'm more willing to buy the "hole" view compared to
142 XT6Wagon : Paint will smoke as it burns off a hot surface, even if the surface itself isn't on fire. Go rattlecan a piece of steel on one side and put a torch o
143 hivue : I think there is a trustworthy report that ground power was connected. A couple of posters have speculated that it was for air conditioning since it
144 7BOEING7 : Again "connected" and "powering" the airplane are two separate issues. If the air conditioning was operating things get more complicated but if the s
145 Post contains links Daysleeper : http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/a...ilipOA260/photo-16_zpsd89c8f2e.jpg The left hand section of this looks very much like a hole to me, however the
146 ltbewr : With so much at stake you want to get the right information out first, after a through preliminary investigation, then to rush with an inaccurate stat
147 iowaman : Please stay on topic when discussing this incident. This thread has been gutted twice today already. Thank you to those who have stayed on topic and f
148 mcdu : According to our 787 manual the is a system referred to as a miscellaneous equipment cooling system in various areas of the aircraft. It include IFE
149 Stitch : Does it list the voltage the system uses? That might help identify the bus and what power sources can energize it.
150 Post contains images rcair1 : It is not that revolutionary. CFRP has been used extensively in other applications, just not the fuselage of a commercial (emphasis, commercial) airl
151 Stitch : Since I'm statistically more likely to die or be injured making my way to the plane than once I am on it, I for one will continue to patronize the 78
152 wowpeter : Leaving the APU running while the aircraft is park is quite common and the APU is design differently than your car engine. APU while on ground usuall
153 Post contains links wjcandee : I thought that this article on the remote power distribution units (RPDU) was interesting. Shows the location; mentioned where 230V AC exists and wher
154 spink : No you cannot clearly see "smoke" emanating from the top of the fuselage. You can see some sort of gaseous mixture coming off the top, but there is n
155 zckls04 : No, he's saying that the dimmable windows and higher cabin pressure (the main advantages to flying the Dreamliner from a pax point of view) are in hi
156 LTC8K6 : I don't think it matters if there are holes in the CFRP or not. The CFRP in that area is finished with it's service as part of an airliner, imo.
157 koruman : The irony of this story appears to be lost upon almost all of the contributors to this thread. The pertinent question is not "was it the batteries, ag
158 PlanesNTrains : Well, since nobody here can answer that question just a few days into the investigation, it seems like a rather rhetorical question. -Dave
159 astuteman : As a point of order, CFRP rear pressure bulkheads have been flying on A340NG's since 2001 and A380's since 2005... Rgds
160 Post contains images Stitch : Sure it could. But it also could be something that could (and perhaps has) occurred on any commercial airliner. We don't know at this point. The safe
161 seahawk : It makes little difference, the heat will have reduced the strength of the CFRP. Anything heated to above 250°C must be considered as possibly damag
162 XT6Wagon : I was only speaking to the people insisting there is giant holes in the 787 fuselage. There might be, but its hardly a requirement to breach the surf
163 ikramerica : The flaw seems to be that you can't leave it unattended without it getting into mischief. As a passenger, that doesn't concern me that much, because
164 ETinCaribe : I have tried to look up the purported ET personnel by the name of Mark Mangooni on the web, but without success. (He is the person quoted in the FT a
165 Post contains images sturmovik : However, I also find it a little worrying that there has been no solid information yet from Boeing, given the battering the 787's reputation took wit
166 spink : The basic reality is, that unless someone saw it or it was being monitored by video or other means, the vast majority of fires and thermal events nev
167 goosebayguy : Aircraft are inherently safe when parked on the ground though.
168 sankaps : I have not come across any mention (other than speculation here on a.net) that the fire was suspicious. Sad our standards have fallen so low that no
169 PlanesNTrains : My head is not in the sand with the 787. When I first read a blurb that an aircraft was on fire at LHR, I didn't give it much thought. When I heard i
170 sankaps : Dave, I don't disagree that there is the possibility that this latest incident may turn out to be non-aircraft specific after all. But given the numb
171 packsonflight : On top of that, If this could be explained away with some simple none aircraft related issue Boeing would have come forward by now and told the media
172 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : It's tough for engineers to fix perceptions. I don't think it will be long before we hear something. I'm guessing the next day or so will see a preli
173 Post contains links BestWestern : There is an interesting article on pprune about the lack of five protection on the upper surfaces of the 787. http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...
174 Post contains images sankaps : But as the saying goes, there is no smoke without a fire (irony / poor pun not intended). Perceptions form for a reason.
175 sankaps : The entire discussion there is an eye-opener. Especially the post you refer to, but also the previous post: "As an retired Boeing Engineer I would li
176 RedChili : It's not an article, it's a post on a discussion forum from a person claiming to be an aerospace engineer. I have no way of knowing whether that pers
177 sankaps : Even if that was the case RedChili, as pointed out by many it is extremely worrying that a cigarette or a coffee pot can cause such damage to the air
178 voodoo : Why is there less (or no?) insulation in the 787s upper half? Is this to do with more than initial weight and to do with moisture accumulation in the
179 par13del : Well, the fire retardant materials seems to have worked as the a/c survived the blaze which seems to have been limited to the rear of the a/c, if the
180 Unflug : Assuming that there is in fact no burn-through fire insulation on the upper half (as opposed to the lower half) I don't see why this should be a prob
181 Finn350 : Because of the structural integrity of the aircraft. The only good thing from burn-through that I can see is that it would most likely put out the fi
182 na : I wonder how they would do the repairs when its economically viable. They cant do it at LHR I guess. I think they would do a temporary repair there an
183 CaptainKramer : Regarding lack of press releases from AAIB or Boeing, regarding Ethiopian B787 fire at LHR. Both are walking a tightrope on this one, given all the is
184 Post contains links BestWestern : What blaze was this? Flight international states that: "AAIB has yet to determine the source of the damage, and has not used the term "fire" " Correc
185 cmf : Can we please stop repeating this wifes' tail just because it is liked on this aviation forum. Reality is that if your drive to the airport is 30 min
186 bikerthai : Did some Mt. Biking this weekend, so was able to get this thread out of my head for a while. Mean while, have there been any new photos of the damaged
187 Post contains images b2319 : All, For myself, as a qualified Risk Assessor, it's very interesting reading others' 'risk appetite' after another incident with the 787; something wh
188 Post contains images jreuschl : No Bud in Milwaukee, we brew Miller! Cheers, anyway! I was in Munich a few months ago so I know what quality beer tastes like
189 Stitch : So would the A320, which had a hull loss with fatalities in it's first year of service with a fleet of less than 16 be considered a resounding mark o
190 Post contains images garpd : Don't be so naive Stitch. Sweeping generalisations and speculations are reserved only for the 787! Ain't that the truth![Edited 2013-07-15 07:43:42]
191 Finn350 : This kind of statement is clearly from someone without physics education. It is physically meaningless to talk about temperature ratios (1/3rd that o
192 D L X : Sorry for going off topic, but where do you get that?
193 Post contains links BestWestern : Looks like it will mid to end of the week before we know anything firmer. "A source close to the investigation said it would likely be days before the
194 Post contains images Klaus : Given the location, that seems very unlikely. The window dimming should use very low currents as well and be disabled anyway in the parked aircraft (
195 Post contains images b2319 : Might I possibly go further? The fire triangle is universally known. Fuel + oxygen/oxidant + souce of ignition = fire; explosion in a confined space.
196 cornutt : Yep. The number of traffic fatalities in the U.S. over the past four years is approximately 150,000. Over that same period, until last week, the numb
197 Post contains images Klaus : Not at all. Back then the public reaction was indeed worried and concerned as you would expect – the A320 just didn't have the millstone of a thoro
198 NeutronStar73 : You hit the nail on the head squarely.
199 Post contains images PlymSpotter : I'm not saying this is the intention, but this Friday would be a fantastic day to bury bad news. It is the day when Heathrow will publish their prefe
200 RedChili : Well, it's in the United Kingdom, remember? The cleaners were probably from the Royal Aircraft Cleaning Department, very well versed in the art of cl
201 sankaps : Stitch -- you prove my point completely: One year of ops and small installed based does not provide sufficient data points to come to a conclusion on
202 Post contains links cmf : Many different sources but well summarized by wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_safety#Statistics So using deaths per hour you get tha
203 kanban : I recall seeing photos of the 787 barrels before join and there was insulation in the crown.. granted CFRP doesn't transfer temperature like aluminum,
204 Stitch : Which is why all the claims of the 787 being "unsafe" and "rushed to market" and "inherently flawed" annoy the heck out of me. Then again, all the cl
205 shufflemoomin : The aircraft took damage in a fire that happened on the ground NEXT DOOR to the fire station. This could have been much worse if it had happened in t
206 AeroWesty : Who is to say that's true, though? The source of the fire could have been spotted immediately and extinguished in flight.
207 kanban : read of more than a few fire stations that burned down with the equipment inside.. thank goodness fire engines can't fly.
208 hivue : What leads you to conclude that the source was in the crown area?
209 marinbb : WSJ reports that investigators are focusing on the ELT as the possible cause of the fire. Does anyone know who makes the ELTs on the 787 and whether t
210 tortugamon : It would be pretty ironic if the beacon that they use to find an aircraft in distress is actually what caused the underlying distress. Shouldn't this
211 Finn350 : A (probably) standard component like an Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) being the fire source would be the best possible news that Boeing could ho
212 kalvado : I could find some references to Honeywell, and - possibly incorrect - reference to another company, Techtest in U.K. If ELT operates on built-in batt
213 AeroWesty : I read that post. Under the rules, it was far too personal towards other members and deserved to be deleted. It could have been less harsh towards in
214 Post contains images astuteman : You know better than this. Or should The 787 isn't getting anything the A380 wasn't getting 5 years earlier (and which the 787 arguably deserves more
215 Post contains images KELPkid : How "standard" is this part on the 787? I know that in GA planes, there are multiple ELT vendors...I also know that over the years, the FAR requireme
216 Post contains images par13del : Ok, I'll play, two items we know from the report, one is that no one was in the a/c so the EMT's at the Fire Station were not needed, so why exactly
217 747megatop : What's your point? No other aircraft type has had these many fire related issues in recent memory in so short a period. So far we have been lucky tha
218 CO953 : All this talk of various components catching fire like coffeemakers, ELTs, A/C packs, etc., has me wondering something: I have noticed that in the la
219 NYC777 : The 787 ELT is manufactured by Honeywell. WSJ is reporting that they are now participating in the investigation.
220 Klaus : I don't see what you're getting at. The crown area where the heated air may have spread is above the cabin ceiling. Cabin furnishings would have had
221 Klaus : My impression is that there is not (much) less quality around than it was – there is just more cheap crap easy to get. If you still want quality, y
222 par13del : Ok, so I'll take it that this fire incident was contained to the crown of the a/c only.
223 tortugamon : If it was all pilot error then why did Airbus modify the A320's alpha-protection control laws, with the stated intent "to increase the flight crew's
224 Viscount724 : It makes no sense not to consider the distance travelled. If you're saying that you are at greater risk flying from JFK to LAX than driving, I disagr
225 Unflug : I'm not so sure about that, because it means that the same thing could have happened in flight.
226 by738 : ....but potentially relatively easy to replace or isolate ?
227 Finn350 : Yes, it could have happened during the flight and there even might be a Li-Ion battery in the ELT. But considering the circumstances. No grounding ah
228 Unflug : To be honest I have a hard time to believe that a defective ELT can produce that much heat, assuming that everything else is OK.
229 Klaus : We don't know for sure yet, but right now there seems to be more evidence for that than against it (the apparently undamaged interior visible from th
230 CO953 : Yes, your point is correct about the availbility of low-price/low-quality things. The problem I am more concerned about is the cheapening of known br
231 747megatop : Agreed 100%. Bottom line is flying is far more safer than driving. Best example is for an any individual to pick a list of deceased people in his or
232 bikerthai : In flight, any issue with the ELT would have showed up in a warning in the cockpit and the pilot would be able to shut that system off prior to the f
233 Post contains images hivue : Even more ironic if the ELT battery is the culprit and that battery is Li-Ion.
234 D L X : The number of hours between matters the most! Sure, if you take out the safest part of flying (the part that is the reason WHY people fly), you can c
235 NYC777 : This ELT is Lithium-Manganese.[Edited 2013-07-15 12:12:31]
236 starrion : That is absolutely going on. My director stood in front of the company last week and said that cost containment is a critical focus in maintaining co
237 NYC777 : If the Honeywell ELT is the culprit then the risk may extend beyond the 787. The WSJ is saying that the battery that powers the ELT is Lithium-mangane
238 astuteman : I have to agree that this is absolutely what has been happening in all walks of engineering. And guess what - we're getting what we pay for - it's th
239 Unflug : An ELT transmits at around 5 Watts and won't consume more than 10 Watts. 10 Watts is not enough to produce the damage we see, and any power consumpti
240 bikerthai : Would? Should? Not sure. But the ELT should be one of those items that must be operational if you are to dispatched. I am not in the know, so I can't
241 Finn350 : If it is a battery thermal overrun inside the ELT, a fuse does not stop it.
242 RubberJungle : Or perhaps lithium manganese.
243 Unflug : Exactly. I was responding to:
244 KELPkid : For years, NiCAD was the battery of choice in ELT's...and there was a regular test/replacement schedule to compensate for the known defeceincies is t
245 mcdu : The 787 has a 3 position cockpit ELT switch. The selections are ARMED, ON and RESET. There is no OFF selection. RESET is a momentary position switch
246 tortugamon : The change to the system was not to make human mistakes less severe but to get more of the control back into the pilots hands. The point is that ever
247 Tristarsteve : The fixed ELT antenna is just in front of the discoloured area in the photo. The ELT is attached to the fuselage crown just below it. Access is throu
248 Post contains images Finn350 : There has to be some reason why this particular ELT got hot if it is the culprit. Maybe the warm weather and no A/C for 8 hours contributed to the eve
249 Klaus : With some brands, that certainly happens over time. Others get better. The thing is that Boeing is the system manufacturer and the entity with the ul
250 AirbusA370 : Has there been any other ELT fire event in history? The avherald database shows nothing.
251 ComeAndGo : So the ELT battery is right on the carbon fibre. No thermal/sound/fire insulation ?
252 Post contains images KELPkid : If it were in a metal-skinned aircraft, the consequences of it would be far less severe unless the fire were hot enough to burn the metal... And even
253 cuban8 : Honeywell has a very good name in aviation. Are the ELT's installed in the 787 any different from other ELT's in other commercial aircraft's? I don't
254 7BOEING7 : According to the MEL (777 & 787) number required for dispatch is "0" -- you can continue operating for 90 days without an ELT -- it can either be
255 Post contains links Finn350 : Honeywell twitter update: 787 Update: Premature to speculate or draw conclusions. Our ELTs were certified in 2005; on a variety of aircraft w/ no issu
256 sankaps : The reason these claims are made are because... I didn't say it was all pilot error. It was due to lack of familiarity with the new human-systems int
257 TC957 : I think we are all looking forward to the initial reports due later this week. I'm wondering how the fire was first detected, given that the doors wer
258 sankaps : Which is why this suggests that either the 787 is incredibly unlucky to have an ELT issue result in such fire damage when no other aircraft has ever
259 ikramerica : I don't agree that you can still buy quality, at least not without spending a fortune in some cases. As for the quality drop, it's noticeable. It com
260 mcdu : Are there restriction on area of operations with ELT MEL? Could have sworn several restrictions existed on where you could fly the plane with ELT OTS
261 servantleader : The common denominator in your well-said discussion is the universally accepted notion that shareholder wealth leads to all things good -- this is a
262 kanban : There are a whole lot of words, but where are the pictures of the ELT and the diagram showing it's location?
263 nm2582 : *IF* it is indeed the origin, it doesn't need to produce enough heat to cause the damage we see. It would only need to produce enough heat to set som
264 7BOEING7 : There were no restrictions in either of the MEL's (777/787) I looked at that are available on the FAA website. Other items I have seen in them have h
265 sankaps : As opposed to those who will try to blame ET maintenance, coffee pots, galleys, crew rests, aircon systems, cigarettes, and even foul play (with no b
266 pierrelav : As a future potential passenger of the new 787, I find BOEING's silence appalling...
267 SonomaFlyer : That's beauty of the internet, folks can speculate and take wild guesses to their heart's content with no consequences whatsoever! We should hopefull
268 sankaps : Most suggestions about not jumping to conclusions are really saying "don't blame the 787 without knowing the facts, but it is okay to jump to conclus
269 TheRedBaron : I dont they are taking their time an also the data from the fire dept and details of the incident must be taken into account, better be safe than sor
270 7BOEING7 : Boeing's hands are tied or better their lips are sealed -- AAIB is the one that needs to speak up.[Edited 2013-07-15 14:28:28]
271 bikerthai : I was thinking about the consumable. There is no real consumable in that area unless you are considering the resin system in the CFRP or possibility
272 fcogafa : Flightglobal state the batteries are non-rechargeable so wouldn't be connected to the battery: ====================== The 787 uses less powerful lithi
273 Aquila3 : I would guess aviation grade wiring should be at least as much fire proof (retardant) as the resin and the panels. I do not know the specifics in Avi
274 hivue : The flightglobal article does not say this. How is the ELT activated in the case of an accident?
275 Stitch : At the time Boeing and Yuasa started development of the Ship's and APU batteries, lithium cobalt oxide was the most well-known chemistry and Yuasa ha
276 dragon6172 : Usually the ELT batteries are a time change item. I believe it is every 12 months on the jets I work on. Meaning the batteries are not charged by the
277 sankaps : Do you think that maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with at least four different 787s (out of an installed base of 50) apparently randomly an
278 dragon6172 : Typically activated by a g-switch in an accident. A controlled ditching where g-forces are not high enough to set it off, it can be manually turned o
279 Post contains links Finn350 : According to this magazine http://honeywell.com/sites/aero-tech...nts/Documents/N61-0696-000-000.pdf Honeywell Rescu 406 ELTs are used in Boeing 787.
280 Stitch : To the best of my knowledge they have not identified the electrical system as a link, much less a common link, for any of these issues. Per media rep
281 sankaps : Fine, let's replace the term "electrical system" with "stuff to do with wires, widgets, gadgets, devices, screwdrivers, BFE, SFE, BSSFE, and FOD link
282 Post contains links B2707SST : Agreed - he also completely ignores the fact that while aluminum may indeed ignite at 2,000 deg F, it melts at about 1,200 degrees and loses most of
283 sankaps : It is this, from Wiki: "On January 9, United Airlines reported a problem in one of its six 787s with the wiring in the same area as the battery fire
284 kanban : electrical problems are very common in today's aircraft.. in the last 7 days 13 flights of various manufacturers/models were impacted by electrical p
285 Stitch : Take a perusal through avherald.net and you'll see plenty of examples of a certain model or family of aircraft experiencing the same type of issue in
286 hivue : Or maybe a capacitor failed.
287 Klaus : Quality has always had its cost, and from my perspective that price has not really moved up much – the main stream of the market has just descended
288 Daysleeper : This little gem again; As I and many others have posted over and over again, there is ample evidence that there was a FIRE aboard ZA002 and there is
289 kanban : show me a plane that doesn't have issues from engine shut downs, fuel and hydraulic pump failures, fire alerts, cracked windshields, blown tires.. ..
290 PITingres : Given that on a bleedless aircraft, the above statement pretty much includes everything short of the engines and fuel system, I'm not at all sure tha
291 CO953 : That is a good point. Let me throw one back at you - meant with TOTAL respect - that popped into my mind when I read your comment. Truly a Socratic q
292 CO953 : And that looks like the nature of the new beast, doesn't it. I liken what's happening with the 787 to the teething problems of the 1st-gen jets, in t
293 trex8 : Maybe this is a dumb question but I thought they couldn't figure out the root cause of the problem? If you are not absolutely sure what caused it how
294 Klaus : Software was almost certainly not the cause of the battery fires, and the current fire should not have a software cause either – designing hardware
295 CO953 : It would be easier, I agree. But I am not referring to a software "bug" per se. I mean that the number of lines of code are staggering. It's managing
296 freakyrat : There is some speculation about the cause of this fire or incident now as Honeywell has joined in the investigation. The fire is in the area of the EL
297 Klaus : It is possible, but this kind of defect can mostly be avoided by approaching the overall design with that in mind from the start. The pure number of
298 JHwk : The only thing that could be hard to test for is harmonic resonance on the variable frequency busses given different load conditions; everything else
299 2175301 : Absolutely would be rational. Not that you would even have the choice today. If there were two 787 (or any other plane) crashes without any substanti
300 PlanesNTrains : The premise that there IS a common link is troubling because - absent any more information - it's just perception. For me, I am deeply concerned that
301 Post contains images CO953 : Thank you for putting in words what I was getting at Ray Bradbury wrote a short story about a fully-automated house on Mars that was still serving br
302 Finn350 : Yes, but in that case 787 would have to be extremely unlucky... the first and only known faulty Honeywell ELT since 2005 just happened to be installe
303 wjcandee : This whole "hipbone's connected to the thighbone" theory of the Mysteries of the Electrical System is getting pretty tiresome. That's right, guys, wha
304 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Let's be real here. Were this flaw to present itself only once, it would absolutely be on a 787. This plane is just_that_unlucky. The suspense is kil
305 CO953 : I suppose you are addressing me, and as you are a veteran and I am a "noob," I am a bit intimidated. But I don't want my posting style misunderstood,
306 Post contains links goosebayguy : Could it be the distress beacon? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...igators-probe-distress-beacon.html
307 Post contains images AirlineCritic : Very interesting, I suppose this is generally applies to all aircraft? Would there be access (without an overhead rest) to the device in flight? Woul
308 seahawk : An ELT battery failure? Now that would be rare and to be honest the damage seems a little large for that. It must have spread, which does not sound go
309 Post contains images spacecadet : Folks could speculate and take wild guesses to their heart's content with no consequences whatsoever before the internet too. Why would there be cons
310 YVRLTN : How about looking at the electrical systems around the ELT? It is not public knowledge, but it HAS been been investigated and it more than has its me
311 kanban : I don't think the comment was pointed at you.. asking questions is good.. there are others who don't ask but start gloom and doom pontificating based
312 elinyc : If the fire is not inflight, it does not even have to be reported to NTSB...
313 bikerthai : Yes, electronic equipment typically have access panel for maintenance. I do not know about this particular aircraft, but typically the components on
314 Stitch : The 787 has encountered a number of issues with electrical arcing inside power panels. The most severe was the one that caused the emergency landing
315 glbltrvlr : Exactly. It's entirely possible that Honeywell was asked to look at the impact of the fire on the ELT as it needs to be able to survive a certain lev
316 Klaus : The two battery failures were of course related, but however clumsily (with the containment box + vent) those should by now be taken care of (althoug
317 voodoo : Or, to paraphrase the Dr. Strangelove script, as per every 'incident' here, 'Gentlemen! You can't conjecture here! This is a Speculation Forum!'
318 blueshamu330s : What sort of casing and protection does the ELT and its power supply have in comparison, out of curiosity..? Rgds
319 Post contains links Stitch : Back in May, The Seattle Times ran an article titled "Electronics outsourcing weakened Boeing’s control over 787’s crucial systems". This article
320 pnwtraveler : IF this was going to be a very serious matter and lives were at risk immediately then you will hear faster. If it is an isolated or unusual case that
321 Post contains links moderators : Part 5 now available here: ET 787 On Fire At Heathrow Part 5 (by moderators Jul 16 2013 in Civil Aviation) This thread will be locked. Thanks.
322 rcair1 : The ghost in the machine. During the grounding did grounded dreamliners gather together in the corners of the darkened hangers where they were parked
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